DD8 doesn't want to go and see her mother. Prefers to stay with me. DD12 likes to go see her mother, but has stated she doesn't want to live with mother.
I believe DD12 likes to go see her mom cause her mom buys her things. She also calls her mothers parents to buy her things. Her mother also takes her to the mall often to buy things. Prefers to feed them fast food, etc. I've always had issue with my STBXWW "buying" the kids off. $50.00 dolls because the kid wants one. $15-20.00 toys weekly (?) cause the kid wants one (was, I believe, part of our "inability" to save money). Hmmmm...
What do you think W STBXWW would say if you approached her about the kids and their feelings? Not a good talk, I am thinking. That's so hard, because you don't want to disregard their feelings (with things like "Oh you love your mom, you want to be with her" and stuff like that) but you don't want to be read as 'feeding' in their negative feelings about her. This is the painful part, and just know in your heart, you have been honest from day one, your kids are old enough to know how they feel, and continue being the ROCK that you are!
Hey Bo - My Dad had his first affair when I was in my mid teens. I don't know alot of the details from my parent's POV because we've never discussed it. And I don't remember alot, but I do remember my mother being ridiculously upset ALL THE TIME and my father being neglectful of us all (Mom, me and 2 brothers). However, my mother made it very clear to me that I was to show my Dad the utmost respect and obedience because he was my Dad. I had opinions about his behavior and my Mom's point was that it didn't matter what opinions I had about how he treated her he was still my Dad.
I believe my Mom did the right thing. My Dad and I have a fairly great relationship today and while I'm not happy about his actions, and I don't have all the respect in the world for him, my Mom was right in encouraging our relationship. And I do value the relationship I have with him today because of who he is. He also managed to pull himself together and I credit my Mom for reminding me that their problems are their problems.
It doesn't really matter if your W communicates her love to your Ds by buying them things - your D's will take care of that relationship on their own. While having the A, my Dad used to hand me money like he was Donald Trump and I knew then, and I know now, that he was doing it out of guilt or to ease his conscience, not because he wanted to show me how much he loved me. I took the monehy for awhile but then realized how much Mom was DOING, not GIVING, and I began to refuse his money. That was hard for HIM, not me, but understand that he needed to hear the refusal from ME. My Mom tried to tell him, he just couldn't hear it from her.
I don't know what you do about D8 - that's tough. I would hate for her to think that it's ok to not associate with her Mom. That's detrimental to both parties, but forcing her doesn't seem right either. Perhaps you could speak to her about how much her Mother was happy to have her, how excited the prospect of adding her to the family was, how much her Mom loves her. Perhaps that would encourage her to go see her. She needs her mom. If not today, then in years to come and it would be awful if this situation (no matter whose fault it is) prevents a positive relationship of any kind down the line.
Just some thoughts... em
Me: 34 H: 39 M: 7 yrs H A 12/05-8/07
If what you say surprises me, I must have been assuming something else was true. - M. Wheatley
I appreciate your comments. I do want to through up the possibility that my STBXWW is suffering from personality disorders. I thought that such a thing was crazy not to long ago. I don't think it's crazy anymore. I'd like to here your thoughts in the context of possible personality disorders. Many have said that it's a very possible reality and have warned me to seek full custody up to and including supervised visits for WW. As I said before I thought that that was crazy talk. I don't think that anymore.
If your up for it, and I don't know how much of my story you know, I'd like to here your comments in relation to these threads also. Beg your pardon if you've already checked out above posts.
My goal is not to keep the kids away from their mom but to protect them from any further manipulation. There mom insists in conversations with DDs that she has done nothing wrong. As above she spoke with afriend about what has happened. She has said that the affair is the biggest mistake of her life (said that to me also). She didn't think it was wrong to call FOM even though there was supposed to be no contact. I could go on and on but it's in the posts.
Check this out also. It is located here: http://survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=179388&AP=1 ---------- Yes, that's what compartmentalizing is - wearing different masks for different compartments. And it's accurate to also point out that your husband probably isn't aware of this aspect of compartmentalizing. However, your husband is an adult who knows the difference between deliberately lying and being honest. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. The only way to break down the compartments in your husband's life is for him to become honest - probably for the first time ever.
It's not impossible, just extremely uncomfortable for your husband. It's his choice, and your counselor should not put the idea in his head that honesty is an impossibility or that lies are ok. You do not have to accept the status quo, and if this counselor doesn't know how to handle someone who spent their life segmenting things into compartments - find one who does.
It's not just you - anyone that wouldn't knowingly support a WS's infidelity is going to be cast in an authoritarian role. My husband did this to his close friends who (while they didn't then know about his cheating) wouldn't support such behavior. He avoided them, told them not to tell him what to do.
A person who is extremely uncomfortable with who they are manages their discomfort with masks. When in the presence of someone who would disapprove of their behavior (like their BS) - pretense and deception are the masks.
Casting you in the authoritarian role gives them something to rebel from (they don't realize they are rebelling from their own integrity - that would require self accountability). But they still want to preserve everyone's good opinion - so they lie to the people who would disapprove (to preserve the mask).
While in the affair - they get to wear the mask of "sexy, desirable, in control, the wronged one, misunderstood, justified, hot, interesting, exciting, etc etc". When one is desperately trying to run from the reality of what one has become, that's a pretty powerfully attractive mask.
Often, there is a "work mask", a "mask around friends", a "mask around the opposite sex", a "mask around the affair partner", a "mask for family" - sooner or later all of these masks are going to create real indentity issues. The masks have to stop - and that requires honesty. First and foremost with himself.
Thanks again DL for your amazing insight. --------- These are the knda things I'd been dealing with, hence I believe people suggesting that WW issues were more serious that I'd thought. BoB
lwb, All that you said is so true. It's really hard to walk that line of being honest but staying away from spiteful and or vindictive, etc. I feel the truth, even at their ages, needs to be addressed, not glossed over or skirted around. I'd think that that gets into the world of denial, and denial I feel, is part of why we're where we're at. I guess it's part of breaking that pattern intelling them. Bob
Bob - you really have been through hell and I feel for you. This situation really sucks. You really seem to have tried to make things better and I can hear the desire to make your marriage work in your posts. It's palpable.
I do have a couple of observations.
1) I noticed that you were kinda all over the place in your posts - and I KNOW that a lot of that is because of the roller coaster of emotions. I just feel like you never really had a defined goal. That you never really had the goal of saving your marriage or of leaving it. Theo referenced that in one of his posts to you and you said you were kinda here for both. I don't think that one can save their marriage unless they are 100% dedicated to doing so. This 100% dedication would mean that one would have to try and understand where their spouse was coming from. I know your wife wasn't honest with you or forthcoming with information, but I didn't really hear you saying you were trying to understand her. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you need to accept her actions, but in order to move on you will HAVE to understand her and where she was/is coming from. Perhaps you have tried and just haven't expressed that?
2) You mentioned that a friend said your wife is going through the motions of C just to gain full custody of the kids. Please make sure you are documenting everything. I would also think that you would want 100% custody. Is it possible for you to do that? Keep in mind that just because you have custody does not mean they can't have a relationship. IMO, I don't think she's able to share anything with you at this point in time - including the kids.
3) You have made a few derogatory remarks about your W in your posts. I'm not trying to be critical about this, but I must admit that when I read them I was taken aback. These comments are not indicative of someone that is interested in loving his W and rekindling a relationship with her. I know that these boards are used to vent and if it's how you feel and this is the only place you can say it, then so be it, I guess I'm just curious to know if this anger you are keeping inside about your W is coming across to your kids in subtle ways that you might not be aware of.
4) As much as this is painful for your kids, they are kids. They don't get to decide what they get told about adult relationships. Your 12 year old can handle more than your 8 year old, but at the same time, they shouldn't know all the sordid details about what has gone on or how 1 parent feels about the other. You have done a wonderful job in getting them back on an even keel. You have not gone the easy route on this one at all, and their health and well being is to your credit. Protect your children from this mess as much as you can.
5) This woman will ALWAYS be in your life. She is not going away. Even after you are divorced she will be there. You will see her at graduations, at birthday parties, at weddings, and you will probably be seated in close proximity to her. She is the mother of your children. She will ALWAYS be in your life in some capacity. Your children will ALWAYS speak of their mother. Likwise, you will ALWAYS be in the life of your wife. Whether she likes it or not, she will ALWAYS hear your children speak of you. Make sure your words, actions, thoughts are of kindness for her - yes, even after all she has done - your children need love, and kindness and peace, thought about and acted upon by both their parents.
6) In regard to your wife being ill - I have no idea. I don't like that she can't come clean about the stuff that's already out there. It seems odd. Her behavior is indicative of so many things and so many things have been mentioned. But, does it matter? Does it really matter if she's ill? By all accounts, she lied in C when she went with you, she's probably lying now. She doesn't appear capable to maintain healthy relationships on any level. But that's all a moot point, really because she's not the one willing or trying to get help. You can't force her to get help or fix the problem with her. She has to - not you. Does her illness change anything? Not really, except that it's all the more reason for you to show her kindness, love, strength, and acceptance.
Bob, I give you all the credit in the world for making it as far as you have in this horrible situation. Life is not easy for you, by any means. Your children have a remarkable father and you will be blessed because of your actions.
Hang in there Bob! I'll keep reading your posts and touch base when I can.
Em
p.s. please don't be offended by anything I've written. It wasn't meant to hinder your progress...
Last edited by ediemarie; 08/25/0704:29 AM.
Me: 34 H: 39 M: 7 yrs H A 12/05-8/07
If what you say surprises me, I must have been assuming something else was true. - M. Wheatley
Ouch. BUt take what edie has to say as her opinion. It is not right or wrong its how she see your sitch and that is why we are here. Sometimes we ourselves have our own fog around us and need someone on the outside to look in.
You are doing good this is a learn as we go process.
your buddy Husband
And if I claim to be a wise man, well It surely means that I don't know
