Here's my situation in brief. I'm extremely lost because every book I pick up seems not to be geared towards my situation at all so it very difficult to apply. So let me start with the affair, if you will. My wife met this guy at work and gradually started spending a lot of time with him with or with out other friends with them. Anyways, he said he had feelings for her and kissed her. Since then they had several kisses since (3+ mos.). She had been telling me after each occurence but seemingly less and less so. She says she's sorry but alternates between they are "just friends" to she has "strong feelings" for him to she "loves him". I know most cheaters either never tell or only when confronted. She tells me each time they are "romantic" (kissing) but the thing is she tells me she loves me and doesn't want to loose me. I'm so confused since all advice is geared to secretive, lying cheaters.
Don't get me wrong I know the flip-flopping on OM's status is a sure sign of dishonesty mixed with ambivilance on her part. From what I can figure she wants to be completely honest but only admits what she thinks I can "handle". And so ends up being neither completely honest or protective of my feelings. I see a lot of similiarities of the typical cheater but no straightforward advice, since my case isn't "as bad" as others. I know I'm lucky in some ways - she still says she loves me, still lives in the house. But I don't feel any less broken and don't want to strictly apply LRT since what it describes is a "worse" situation than mine. ahhhhhhhhh
I don't know what's in her head and that always leaves me at a disadvantage. She recently asked if she could go golfing with the OM. How do I answer that? I say no, I seem controlling. If I say yes then I seem permissive. I ended up telling her that I would never approve of her dating someone else but that I'm not going to interfere with her free will. Her response is that she shouldn't tell me the "truth" anymore because I just get upset. Far as I can tell I express myself cool and calm but I just don't know how to deal with this. It doesn't seem like I should apply extreme measures like LRT or After LRT or ultimatum but she still refuses to stop being "friends" with OM. I don't mean to but I'm seriously loosing all "love" I have for her. Please help.
I feel more like her priest than husband and need advice that applies to the in-between state that I'm in. It's more of an EA than PA but we're not separated, she's still affectionate, still says she loves me (but not in love with me). I have wished many times that she hid it and had a full affair just so the multitude of available advice would fit. Please help my in-between situation!
H 30 (me) W 28 Married 9 yrs 2 children EA found out on 7/5/07 ILYBNILWY 8/25/07 The unexamined life is not worth living -Socrates
Have you read any of Frank_D threads? If not I think you may get some good input from them.
My thoughts....I don't think anyone can say that their situation is how most books say. There are parts in DR, for my sitch that are close but not the same. Same goes for countless other books I have read. I think the best option is to pick something close & know your own sitch & what may work for you.
I would go with the LRT & GAL because it does not matter how it is explained in the book/s it can work for any given sitch.
Regards the OM...For now I think you have to sit it out, if you feel that you can. I understand how hard that is my friend. I would not openly support your W with her intrest in the OM but I would not let her know that it is a big concern to you either.
From reading...you sound like you are doing all you can. I can only say continue & try to not let time be your enemy but let it be your friend.
I'm sorry I can't offer better thoughts right now, forgive as this is sort of a very quick reply mate....I was just about log off...
Your story is pretty typical of the 'lost attraction' situations all over this board.
She's testing you as a man, and you're allowing her to have her cake and eat it too.
What did you do over the past years that may have lost attraction for her?
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She recently asked if she could go golfing with the OM. How do I answer that? I say no, I seem controlling. If I say yes then I seem permissive. I ended up telling her that I would never approve of her dating someone else but that I'm not going to interfere with her free will. Her response is that she shouldn't tell me the "truth" anymore because I just get upset. Far as I can tell I express myself cool and calm but I just don't know how to deal with this. It doesn't seem like I should apply extreme measures like LRT or After LRT or ultimatum but she still refuses to stop being "friends" with OM. I don't mean to but I'm seriously loosing all "love" I have for her. Please help.
So, you're a doormat then?
I'll tell you that she doesn't respect you if she'll play this game, and she shouldn't respect you because you are not telling her in no uncertain terms that you, as a man, are not going to stand for this. Either she stops this behavior or she needs to seriously consider getting out.
The 'LRT' is extreme, but you can also say what I just posted. It isn't a threat, it's a 'you cannot have both' statement. A FACT.
1-Listen to Frank. He is a learned and wise man. 2-Read my sitch, I have been where you are and fall often. If it wasn't for Frank, Theo and my DB Gal Pals, I think I would be in the loony bin by now. As it is, I only sit in front of it. 3-To piggyback on Frank, not condoning behavior does not equal controling. You can tell her that you do not feel that it is right to go golfing with him and let her make up her mind. 4-Lastly, look up David Cunningham's website, makingherhappy.com and read some of his stuff. He is a little over the top sometimes, but he is also makes some good points.
Good luck brother.
Me: 44 S: 17 and 7 Final-6-13-08 I once went to a psychic who told me I would soon feel cheated......
Here's my situation in brief. I'm extremely lost because every book I pick up seems not to be geared towards my situation at all so it very difficult to apply. So let me start with the affair, if you will. My wife met this guy at work and gradually started spending a lot of time with him with or with out other friends with them. Anyways, he said he had feelings for her and kissed her.
The main question in my mind right now is: Should I personally slap you, or should I just have you slap yourself?
OK, sit down for this.
Hold on to something tight because I'm going to yell at you for your own damn good...
YOU ARE TOTALLY MISSING WHAT'S GOING ON!
THIS WOMAN ACTUALLY WANTS YOU, AND YOU'RE SCREWING IT ALL UP BY ACTING LIKE A NEEDY WUSS BAG!
Whew. Let me calm myself. I don't usually get so worked up. That makes two exclamation points in one post so far, and I haven't even started lambasting you proper yet.
OK, I'm calm.
NOW, let's have a little talk here...
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Since then they had several kisses since (3+ mos.). She had been telling me after each occurence but seemingly less and less so. She says she's sorry but alternates between they are "just friends" to she has "strong feelings" for him to she "loves him". I know most cheaters either never tell or only when confronted. She tells me each time they are "romantic" (kissing) but the thing is she tells me she loves me and doesn't want to loose me. I'm so confused since all advice is geared to secretive, lying cheaters.
And just what has been your reaction? She is trying to make you jealous and you are rolling over. Uggg!
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From what I can figure she wants to be completely honest but only admits what she thinks I can "handle".
She wants a STRONG man. You are being a Wuss.
She wants a STRONG reaction. Where is it?
Women don't feel the emotion called ATTRACTION for guys who act weak, needy, insecure and "WUSS-LIKE".
Were you like this when you married? I hope not. How were you then. Be that man again.
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she tells me she loves me and doesn't want to loose me.
She is crying out to you.
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She recently asked if she could go golfing with the OM. How do I answer that? I say no, I seem controlling.
Come close, I have something to say. Closer.
THE ANSWER IS NO!
NO
NO
NO
Control has nothing to do with it. The confident masculine has healthy boundaries. When she steps over those boundaries you let her know that is not acceptable. Period.
Control has nothing to do with it.
A real man has boundaries; a boy hides his eyes.
*NO* is the door to your inner boundary.
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my case isn't "as bad" as others.
It is far worse. She wants you to be a man and you are failing the test. The outcome is in your control.
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but that I'm not going to interfere with her free will.
Her *free will* does not permit her to hurt you. That is not free will - that is aggression. And if you roll over - that is masochism.
IT IS NEVER CORRECT TO LET ANOTHER PERSON HURT YOU.
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It doesn't seem like I should apply extreme measures like LRT or After LRT or ultimatum but she still refuses to stop being "friends" with OM. I don't mean to but I'm seriously loosing all "love" I have for her. Please help.
In your case the LRT or "losing love" are just other words for running away. She is crying out for a strong man, not a little boy.
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I feel more like her priest than husband and need advice that applies to the in-between state that I'm in.
Did she marry a priest? Does she want to be with a priest? Stop acting like one.
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I have wished many times that she hid it and had a full affair just so the multitude of available advice would fit
Only courage will solve your problems, not running away.
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It's more of an EA than PA but we're not separated, she's still affectionate, still says she loves me
There is still so much hope.
So what's the answer?
The answer is to NEVER BE THOUGHT OF AS A WUSSY AGAIN!
If you want to make your M a whole lot better and easier, then stop and think about your behavior... and resolve right now to stop acting like a WUSS for the rest of your life.
Being "nice" and "accommodating" and "understanding" is great for friendships and social relationships, but it's HORRIBLE for ATTRACTION.
An interesting, attractive woman doesn't want a guy that she can push around. She doesn't want a guy who does what she wants him to do. She doesn't want a little boy that she can train and raise.
Go to the store and buy 'Hold on to your NUTs' by Wayne Levine. Another great book is 'The Way of the Superior Man' by David Deida.
You can save your marriage but you have a lot of work to do.
Ok feeling a little beat up here. I'm not a type A personality and the affair has taken a lot of confidence out of me. So for flip sake, give me a break! I understand you all are trying to help and I'm trying to be the "alpha male" or whatever but it's further for me to travel than frank and others here. In fact, it may be some of the controlling behaviours of type A personalities that drove your wifes away. All I'm saying is let's not treat each other like dirt when we all are trying to face our demons. How bout some encouragement?
I'll post a paraphrased conversation from last night as frank suggested:
Conversation last night:
Note: things in parentheses are my thoughts and were not actually said.
Me: We can't continue living the way we've been living.
W: What do you mean?
Me: I'm at the point now where I can now longer stand being in limbo.
W: What do you want me to say? Do you want me to ask for a divorce so it isn't so hard on you? I mean your obviously hurting
Me: (thinking : cold hearted bitch) No, I don't want a divorce but this is my life to and would like to know what the situation is (so I can plan accordingly)
W: You know this is hard on me .
Me: I know this has got to be hard on you too.
W: Well, what is it you want from me?
Me: I don't want anything from you. I'm simply letting you know what I think and I'm asking what's going on in your life?
W: I don't know what I want to do I just need a couple of months to figure things out.
Me: Do you still want to be married or do you want to chase after OM?
W: (pause) I want to be married
Me: Well what's your plan then because having a BF and a husband is incompatible with each other. And really fair to no one.
W: I don't know. I don't have a plan.
Me: (thinking: Without a plan we're just going to be stuck like this FOREVER. At least if she filed papers or dumped OM there would be SOMETHING. I think you've felt this way too before frank.)
W: Do you want me just not to talk to MY FRIEND ever again? (thinking: oh great here comes the manipulation and dishonesty)
Me: Yes, that's what I want because staying like this clearly isn't working.
/// Some time passes and conversation switches gears ///
Me: Honey, you know I've been worried about you for the past six months or so and you seemed real down. I wish I knew how to help but I know you don't like therapists. I'm actually glad you've been going out with your girlfriend more because you're close and it seems to help relieve stress. (she was depressed, hates psychiatrists and believes mental health is all about "crazy people").
W: I haven't been like that for six months. You didn't even care that I was down.
Me: I DO really care about you when you're down. I just didn't know how to help you back up. (Well, I do know - strong AD meds but I wasn't going to bring that up because she's VERY NOT RECEPTIVE)
W: You didn't seem to care. You didn't help me with the kids in the morning; you didn't help me around the house. You just spent all the time on the computer.
Me: (I realize that arguing the fine points doesn't help with women because it's more about how the feel about the situation than whether what they're saying is true). I know I should have helped more. Strike that. I should have carried my fair share and I'm sorry. I've looked inside myself lately and found that there's things I don't like about the way I was. I'm not where I WANT TO BE but I'm getting there. I'm sorry for not doing what I should have.
W: (skeptical, of course) You just want things to go back to how I did everything and your life is comfortable.
Me: No, actually what I want is a better life. I don't EVER want to go back to how it was (where she felt neglected and actually so do I for a lot longer but I guess that's another topic or maybe not) My hope is that I become a better person and hopefully you join me.
H 30 (me) W 28 Married 9 yrs 2 children EA found out on 7/5/07 ILYBNILWY 8/25/07 The unexamined life is not worth living -Socrates
Ok, so what? I told her this is not working. You say to stand up and be counted, right? Well wtf does that mean? Give her 48 hours to turn around or she's out the door? If you're telling me I should be giving an ultimatum then make that clear. But belittling me based on a post on a bulletin board helps no one. Be clear here in what you want me to do. You only see one side based on what I said and how I felt when I wrote it.
See, when she says they're friends - I disagree, with tact, but disagree. When she wants me to do this or do that, I do it if I want to help her but not because I need her. I'm hurting. Yes! screwed up some opportunities sure. I'm trying to DB as best I understand the principles so all you saints can go on telling me how you just got your woman to do what you wanted but I don't buy it.
I should have outright said no. But, she would have outright done it. I did tell her outright no last night so we'll see who's right I guess. I mean seriously you're right I'm not 100% assertive right now and probably not nearly as alpha male as some of you. Okay fine whatever. I'm at a low point now and my confidence is down, doesn't mean it won't be back up. Really that's key and reading tons of articles and stuff all just hint at that. So, I'm going to GAL some more so I can bring that to the table.
What makes you all feel good about kicking someone when they're down? I mean what's that about? I'm not flipping stupid. I know it boils down to that one word - confidence. When I have these talks in my head I'm cool, calm and collected. Clint Eastwood would be jealous. When I look in her eyes and see her hurt and even anger well let's just say the conversation comes out like posted above. You all may not see it but I've come a long way and hopefully the new meds will help take some of the edge off (yes, I've become depressed).
I'm glad you all have your lifes in order and everythings great. Congrats welcome to the board where everyone's so together and with it.
Actually, a week ago I was feeling very much confident and yes, she responded. Then I got a little depressed (frank I think you've been here) and confidence slipped. I'm back on an uptick and plan on keeping it. It's not that I don't hear what you're saying. I'm trying to break old habits of not being assertive enough, confident enough; raise two kids on my own (no, wife hasn't lifted a finger in six months -- her depression); and try to save my family and marriage.
Anyways, take this rambling for what it is. But please don't pretend to be better than me and post on this board. If we all didn't have problems we WOULD NOT be here.
Now, undoubtedly some will respond, "lester, I didn't mean it as a personal attack but a wake up call." My response is: "Yes, I know you didn't but I'm stretched to my breaking point here. Not excusing it just saying I'm trying to keep EVERYTHING together and going from doing half the work to all of it is taking a HUGE toll on me. well reply if you want.
H 30 (me) W 28 Married 9 yrs 2 children EA found out on 7/5/07 ILYBNILWY 8/25/07 The unexamined life is not worth living -Socrates
All I'm saying is let's not treat each other like dirt when we all are trying to face our demons. How bout some encouragement?
What do you think was not encouraging about Jeff223's post?? I saw a LOT of positives and some reality.
We're men talking to another man. Do you want us to say "Oh Lester, please be more manly! All is not lost!". Seems like we're talking to a little boy then.
We talk to each other on the board this way.
The biggest problem in this world is the 'Metro-Sexual' Feminist view than men need to be 'kinder and gentler'. BullSh*t.
Men need to be men. Not mean, not arrogant, not abusive, not controlling. Good, Decent, caring, leaders with goals and boundaries who will say what they mean and mean what they say.
Most of us had fathers who didn't teach us how to be men, and we had examples of marriage that were weak.
If you read some of the things I sent you, you will start to get that.
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Me: Do you still want to be married or do you want to chase after OM?
W: (pause) I want to be married
Me: Well what's your plan then because having a BF and a husband is incompatible with each other. And really fair to no one.
Try "Me: Ok, if you want to be married to ME then your relationship with OM is not acceptable to me. You're either with ME or not. This is interfering with our marriage because you're using OM as an excuse to not spend time with me working on OUR relationship."
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W: Do you want me just not to talk to MY FRIEND ever again? (thinking: oh great here comes the manipulation and dishonesty)
Me: Yes, that's what I want because staying like this clearly isn't working.
Me: Right now you're using him as an escape from our relationship. It can't work both ways. If he is ANY kind of real man he'd understand that your marriage is more important than his playtime with you.
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Me: I DO really care about you when you're down. I just didn't know how to help you back up.
W: You didn't seem to care. You didn't help me with the kids in the morning; you didn't help me around the house. You just spent all the time on the computer.
Me: I know I should have helped more. Strike that. I should have carried my fair share and I'm sorry. I've looked inside myself lately and found that there's things I don't like about the way I was. I'm not where I WANT TO BE but I'm getting there. I'm sorry for not doing what I should have.
W: (skeptical, of course) You just want things to go back to how I did everything and your life is comfortable.
Me: No, actually what I want is a better life. I don't EVER want to go back to how it was (where she felt neglected and actually so do I for a lot longer but I guess that's another topic or maybe not) My hope is that I become a better person and hopefully you join me.
Ok, here's what's really important about this conversation. You are TOO PASSIVE.
"I know I should have helped more. Strike that. I should have carried my fair share and I'm sorry. "
Becomes: "You're right about all that. I'm here to help with those things NOW. We're a team and I'm your partner".
Then you take action. Women respond to ACTION, not WORDS.
"My hope is that I become a better person and hopefully you join me."
Becomes: "I INTEND on becoming better at (x, y, z) whether you are with me or not. I'd prefer you are WITH me but I'm going there regardless."
Lester, this is all about you not being there as a partner and her becoming bored. It's also about this passive attitude.
'Man Up' as we like to say. Make STATEMENTS like "I am... I INTEND... I WILL.." instead of "I'll try to ..... honest I will!".
We like you man, all this is in support of you as a man.
Nobody is abusing you. Nobody feels like they are 'better than you'. Nobody is kicking you.
You're feeling like that because you're confidence is down.
When you read posts think about 'hanging with the guys' and one of them saying these things with a laughing and an 'are you crazy?' tone in their voice.
And you responding with "Ahhhh, you're right! Let's have another beer" or "No way man, I did x,y,z and SHE was the one who ...".
E-mail and Board posts can't carry the 'tone' or 'attitude' that being in the same room can.
You give US too much power. We're just a bunch of guys like you.
I have wished many times that she hid it and had a full affair just so the multitude of available advice would fit. Please help my in-between situation!
