new to db'ing, my first post ...

[robx]

- your post hit the nail on the head, I'm impressed that anyone got much of what i said, I think I talk in circles too many times for anyone to make heads or tails out of what I say.

It's true, she knows if she wiggles her a$$ in front of my face that I pretty much fall flat on my face, yes I'm an a$$ man (among pretty much every other body part on a woman) and she definitely has a nice one and she knows it does the trick for me. I never thought of it that way, if she wants sex, she does wiggle that thing in front of me, flirt with me and gets what she wants. It's hard for me (I won't say it's hard for all men or women, that's a stereotype) because I'm a sucker for really good sex and we've always had good sex but it is easy for her. She just has to "wiggle" it as you say and I'm there but if the opposite is done and I'm the one initiating it and she's not exactly feeling it or wanting to, she holds out.

I should do it the other way, I should hold out, I should care less and I should act as if I'm moving on and really mean it.

And I also think she is probably into the bad boy type that would treat her like crap, her dad was that way with her mom and left them when they were young only to come back a few years later. He did the same thing to another woman overseas and my wife only recently met her half-sister a couple of years ago and now she found out that she has another half-sister out there. Her dad is the kind of guy who couldn't care less about his wife, love or anything else for that matter. He takes care of himself and his own needs and doesn't worry about anyone else. I guess my wife saw that growing up and she is daddy's little girl and maybe that is the kind of guy she is attracted to, the "bad boy".

UGGG!!!

I've never been called the bad boy, I probably spent my whole life trying not to be the "bad boy", always responsible, safe, mature, etc. (yes boring for most of my life but that has been changing, trust me)

I need to be smart enough & clever enough like you said, I'm going to see if I can do that - if not for anything else, just for me.

Thanks for the wicked reply back, it was awesome and I love hearing from the female perspective - it helps alot, more than you know. ;-)

[sandi2]

Hi, I'm glad that you were open to what I told you. Unfortunately, I have seen this too many times in couples. I will never understand what attracts some females to the "bad boy" character b/c to me it is very unappealing, but that is a difference in people's taste. I do want to encourage you about something that I feel is very important and I hope you will listen carefully. I know when a heart is breaking it is hard to hear, but so far you have done a great job, so I hope you will hear this also. I tried to teach my son to understand women's needs and to be a "nice guy". So, when he was old enough to date he quickly became discouraged b/c it seemed like all the girls he cared about would end up breaking his heart and turning to the bad boys. He told me that it was clear to him that the worse you treated women, the better they liked it. I was concerned about him b/c he had a big heart and I know I'm his mother, but he is a good person and I hated to see him change his natural character/personality just to try to get a particular girl. I encouraged him to hold out b/c I believed that there was a girl for him that would truly appreciate his wonderful good nature. Well, that girl came along! She is the sweetest DIL that I could ever hope to have. She has told me many times how much she appreciates how I raised him b/c he is so good to her and their children. He is a good man, not b/c I taught him to be, necessarily, but b/c he was born with that nature. So, what I am telling you is NOT to change just to try to "get the girl" b/c whether it is your wife or another woman later down the road, there is somebody that will appreciate you for the man you already are and you won't have to break you back trying to become somebody you aren't.

I am not saying this is true in every case b/c I don't have the degrees of a piece of paper to say that it is, but I can say that I have witnessed these cases of the woman wanting the bad boys when she was either spoiled by her parents (or whoever raised her). And, by spoiled, I don't mean with money, but I mean that they gave into her and let her have her way if she threw enough angry fits until they grew weary and would relent. So, in other words, they were too good to her and she did not respect them b/c they gave into her wishes when they knew it was not what she should do/have. Therefore, when the "bad boy" comes along and pays no attention to her and treats her like she is something for him to wipe his feet on......she respects him b/c he is the first person that has ever told her she could not have what she wanted........mainly him. So, naturally, she wants him and more of his treatment.

It all sounds so crazy, doesn't it? But that is my reason for saying some of the things I did in my last post.

She just has to "wiggle" it as you say and I'm there but if the opposite is done and I'm the one initiating it and she's not exactly feeling it or wanting to, she holds out.

This is just my opinion but I see this as "power control". She calls the shots as to when to have sex. If the two of you have sex when YOU want it, then that means she is submitting to you and giving up her power (in her mind). She feels in control of the relationship and it makes her feel "powerful" to know that it takes little effort on her behalf to work you like a puppet. It feeds her ego. But it is not in a good way. You are a young, normal man who is separated from his wife, and of course you are sexually needy. She also realizes that and I am quite sure saves that for her trump card when nothing else works, or if she just needs a boost to her ego. I hate to sound so harsh, but I know a little bit about how women think and feel......and all of it is not good.

I can only tell you what I would do if I were in your shoes. It is very hard to do when children are involved and I realize that. However, I personally do not think you are going to win her over to being like you want her to be. Not this way. She is not going to change her ways in order to get you back. Before I go any farther, I meant to ask you about this depression of hers. Is she on medication? Have you actually been with her and heard the doctor discuss her "condition" or is this what she or her family has told you? If I were you, I would want to know what is being done about her medical problem b/c people do not have to just suffer with bi-polar and do nothing about it. If it is postpartum depression, then she can be treated for that. Any type of depression can be treated, as far as I know. I'm not sure what this "biological depression" means. But anyway, that is why I can't help but think this is being used as her credit card to throw out there when she needs to cash in on some "excuse" for bad behavior. Based on what you have told us, I get a bad vibe about it. Anyway, if she truly has a medical problem, there is no excuse for her not being under a doctor's treatment continually, and I would think after some point.....there should be signs of improvement. However, think about it. If a person gets what they want in their life by using bad behavior, why would they change? If bad equals rewards, then she is not going to change until she experiences, and is throughly convinced, that bad equals consequences for her actions.

Back to what I started to say before I got off on the "depression" thing......you have worked very hard to over come your lack of self-respect and low self-esteem. I know that was such a hard accomplishment and I really admire anybody who can do that! It takes a very determined person who wants that more than anything. But, a tremdous amount of damage has been done to the marriage relationship and I think it will take a major change for her to realize that she is going to come out of this as the "looser" if she doesn't change things about herself. She will have to want something despartely in order for her to work that hard for it b/c I doubt that she has ever had to before.

This is what I purpose that you do and it is strickly my thoughts about it. It, of course, is your life and your decision. You may want to invest in talking to one of the DB counselors b/c they are very good in their advice. Anyway, I think you should stop all meetings with her, such as eating out with the children or any other get-togethers. In your stitch, I do not think the "friend" path will work b/c she doesn't respect that. You will be spinning your wheels. You should not have any contact with her what-so-ever except where the children are concerned or business. You need to continue in all the self-improvements that you have accomplished and just keep getting better in all of those areas. That is what has won you your self-respect. You need to stay as busy as possible and stay out of your house as much as possible getting a life apart from your wife. Again, do not make any contacts by phone, emails, or anything unless it is almost an emergency or regarding the kids, but don't use the children as an excuse to contact her. I think you said there was already a schedule set in place. Make her stick to "her" schedule she made. As I said before, now that your self-esteem is better, you should know what you will stand for and what you won't, so have those lines drawn in the sand and don't let her or anyone else step over them. That is when we start loosing our self-respect is when we allow others to step over those lines, whether they go by the name of "wife", "boss", "friend" or whoever.

Detaching is the hardest thing you will ever do. You can read all the threads from LBS on this board and they will tell you that it is. I have had many say that they just can't do it and they try to get around it and do other things and all the time, their spouse is "eating cake". In the end, if they do what they should do, they learn that they can detach and that it is hard but it is also healthy for them. It often takes this detachment in order for the spouse to start to open their eyes. I don't know if you have read about "dropping the rope" or not. Picture your wife with one end of a rope tied around her and you holding on to the other end. She is fighting to get away from you while you are holding on for dear life. As long as you are holding tight to that rope, she will fight to get away. However, when you drop that rope and she sees that you are not trying to hold on to her any longer and that you have gone your merry way and living your own life, then if she is ever going to wake up and realize what she has lost, that is when it will happen. In some cases, it has gotten right down to getting a divorce. Some have actually gone through a divorce and then gone back together. There is one thing to consider, and that is the fact that a lot of times when you detach and start living your own life, by the time your spouse wants you back.......you are the one that is no longer interested. I may sound hard hearted and I don't mean to, but the way I see it is that when you have given everything you can and you still get treated this way......that is all there is left to do. If she comes to you wanting to reconcile, and you are no longer interested......she has nobody to blame but herself. Oh, by the way, she will play all her little games with you. She will pull out every trump card she has, so if you go this route......brace yourself for whatever she dreams up. At first, she will think it will be easy to pull her usual sex card. When that doesn't work, it will become more challenging for her and she will try harder. Of course, the first time you turn her down for sex, she will be furious b/c I doubt that has ever happen to her. Should be interesting to see the display of emotions......huh? You can bet before it is over that you will probably see about every emotion that she has b/c that is what she opperates out of.....her emotions.

Well, I know it is a big decision what path you will choose, but let me add this. If you decide to "drop the rope" be positive that is what you know you need to do and that you realize how difficult it will be and be prepared for all her bag of tricks. Sometimes, we have to do what we know we have to do......not what we "want" to do. I know you are a strong person based on what you have already accomplished. I also think you are sick and tired of being abused by somebody that is suppose to love you above all others. I also think she has somebody else on the side-lines, but that is just my gut feeling.

That thought also leads me to tell you this. When getting a life.....be very careful b/c you are vulnerable where sex is concerned and you could find yourself with another woman in a sexual situation that you don't need to be in, so be careful. I'm not preaching, but there are particular bar scenes and places like that, where the atmosphere seems to encouage flirting and picking up dates. If you go "looking".....you will find.

One more thing that I thought of and then I have to go. She may not act interested when/if you drop the rope, if she does have her eye on another man. She may end up messing her life up by getting involved with one man after the other. You need to be prepared for that also. This happens in a lot of cases with women that are like your wife. However, you could not control what she does no matter which path of DBing you choose.

Again, I am not telling you what you have to do. I am just throwing this out there and it is up to you. It is your life and only you can live it. I hope you won't waste a day of it. You sound like a really great person who deserves a wife that loves and appreciates who you are. Time does a lot for the heart.

Take care of yourself,
Sandi2

[robx]

Hi Sandi, thanks again for the great reply back.

I will also say that my heart "broke" quite some time ago, this past 1+ year has seen it heal considerably and it's true that time does help heal these kind of wounds - even sometimes when you don't want it to. I am in a much better place now just so everyone is clear about that. I won't be jumping off any bridges anytime soon (because with my luck I would probably just hurt my knees something fierce LOL!)

Looking back, alot of it was my fault and I'm not just saying that to make what she has done OK, because it isn't. Based on all the materials I've been reading during this last year, I haven't been much of a man all my life and that probably did a fair amount of damage to whatever attraction she had for me. I can see that I was guilty of a lot of mistakes: not leading enough, not setting rules & boundaries, being mr.nice guy and not being honest when things bothered me and letting her do whatever she wanted even at my expense, putting her on a pedestal, telling her I was afraid to lose her, not valuing myself and having self-respect, allowing her to flirt openly with other men sometimes right in front of me and not telling her that her behavior was wrong and if I did, I didn't stick to my guns and backed down when I should have stood firmly. So many things I have done wrong to show her I was weak and truth be told, I was very weak.

That was then, this is now.

I'm a different person, I wouldn't have been able to do any of the things that I've done this past year (08/09) recently if I hadn't taken back those raisins I call balls out of her purse. LOL! Yes it's funny when it's put like that but the analogy is somewhat accurate, I own "them" again and I'm smiling while I write this.

- I wouldn't have moved back into my home
- I wouldn't have demanded and rec'd equal shared/joint custody of my children
- I stopped allowing her to talk horribly to me anymore, before I would just take it, shrink in my corner and never stand up for myself, now I stop her in her tracks and ask her to leave or hang up (depending if it's in person or on the phone)
- I don't beg or plead for her to come back
- in fact I packed her things and moved her out just last month (seriously I would have never thought I was capable of this)
- when she openly discussed a night of bar hopping with her girlfriends and all the "hot" guys they were hanging out with, I pretty much told her to shut up, that it was extremely disrespectful to talk like that in front of me with other people around as if to mock me and she totally went silent and was embarrassed (with a whisper of "it never bothered you before" coming out of her mouth at which point I replied that it always bothered me that someone who I loved and was supposed to love me could hurt me so easily in person & in public)
- she is the one who initiates hugs and polite conversation now, otherwise I'm quiet and just go about my business if she happens to be visiting the kids if she is in the area
- when I don't pay her any attention, she notices it, I think it actually hurts her, I've seen the reaction in her face and she has mentioned that it seems so easy for me to move on, that this doesn't affect me anymore and truth be told, it is getting easier

My weaknesses: I have a few, namely, sex. Seriously I'm a young guy, 37 years old, I'm in pretty good shape now and one of the unfortunate side effects of being more fit & healthy is that my "appetite" is much stronger now. I don't want to go out & start dating other women just to have sex and I rationalize that with the opportunity when it comes up to have sex with my wife. But I see what you're saying about holding back on that too and I see that she probably realizes she still has that power over me and I never looked at it that way so I definitely have to work on that part. It's just that when you don't "drink water" for a while, you get really "thirsty"! ;-)

She does use her depression as her way of acting poorly to me. It is an excuse, I'm seeing that. She doesn't act like that with her friends ever from what I know and she seems to be able to switch off the depression when she goes out with her friends which seems to convenient to me. She has been on medication for the last 5 years, for the first 4 she was on the wrong medication (which is really horrible when I think about it, I am so angry at the doctors for that but apparently it happens). I believe she is on wellbutrin right now. When I call her on her mood swings and acting poorly and verbally abusive, she says that I'm not there for her emotionally and unfortunately that throws me for a loop because it's possible that she is right - I have to assume she can't be "evil" (yes a strong word, possibly not entirely accurate) all the time and it's possible that she does have mood swings which the medication doesn't help with and then again I could be gullible and buy this just like I have in the past.

The detaching process is news to me, I've only started reading about this and it's very interesting because it's possible I started implementing a version of this without knowing that it's detaching. I've stopped pursuing her, I'm living my own life now, go the gym regularly, shop for myself, I go out with friends, have friends over, take care of myself and my kids (we go out and do stuff regularly and sometimes include their mom) and I don't require her help with anything. One of the advantages of being the person who did the bulk of the household work (while being the main breadwinner) is that running my household isn't an alien task: I cook, clean house, do laundry, bring home the bacon & cook it. It isn't always easy, being one person and doing it all can be tiring sometime but I don't feel bad for myself, I actually feel good about myself because I can do it.

Back to detaching, my wife has noticed more & more of this. No regular txt messaging or phone calls, when she is over I don't pay too much attention to her (unless we're being physically intimate) and I know she notices this because she mentions it to me and I think it bothers her, in fact i can tell that it does - she has called sometimes and told me she is sad, told me she still loves me, asks if I still love her, tells me things like "it's not like I didn't want things to work out between us". It's hard to trust her though based on all the crap that she has pulled and how mean & abusive she was during the first half of last year when we were first separated. I also know that she doesn't like living at home with her parents but I don't want her to move back in with me just to get away from them (been there & done that), it has to be real for me to allow her to come back. When you read that last part, I almost sound like the walk away spouse even though she was the one who kicked me out.

That is probably my only fear with detachment, it's probably very possible that when you detach enough, you don't want the other spouse back and when they start pursuing you and wanting you back, you push them away. It's probably very good at shifting the power back to your end but the drawback is knowing that you're detaching so that they know what they're losing and need to work hard at getting back. I guess that is where discipline comes into play.

Thanks again for your replies, I'm going to be re-reading them over & over again, it definitely helps to get the female perspective on this and you seem to know my wife's behaviors very well which helps alot, I've derived alot of insight from your posts - thank you!!!

[sandi2]

It's good to know that I helped in some small way. It sounds like two people who married young, and like most of us, had a lot of growing to do. It appears that you have done most of the growing. I think it says a lot about you when you take part of the responsibility for the breakdown in the marriage relationship. You also sound so much like my H when we were first M. In fact, he was so sweet and gentle that I was probably not very nice to him and took advantage of his good nature. It is a shame, but that is how most humans are, we tend to walk on the people who allow us to. Through the years, he toughen up and he does not take much off me anymore, but he is still a pretty nice guy.....guess our son gets it from him.

You really made me laugh when I read your post and that is good that you can keep your sense of humor and not be bitter. That is very sad when a person allows a broken relationship to cause them to be bitter. I don't know many people who enjoy being around a bitter person.....they just aren't much fun, are they?

The detaching......hummmmm, yes, there are several that experience the problem you described when it takes their spouse too long to decide to straighten up and fly right. The way you see it at this point in time would be very sad for you to lose that love for her, but if you were fully detached emotionally from her, it would not bother you other than to look back and think that it was sad that the two of you did not work out your differences. Now, I want you to understand that I am not trying to get you to the point that you want a divorce......I'm just explaining this "detachment" process. I sincerely hope that the two of you can work things out, but I do think it will take a long time for her to be convinced that you are no longer the person you were before. I had to learn that with my H, so she can learn it.....if she wants to. I just hope she doesn't get involved with another man and really mess things up.

If I had to pick one thing out of all the DB techniques that I thought was the most important one, it would be "do not pursue". This means in anyway what-so-ever. I think it is a man's nature to pursue and he does it a lot of times and doesn't realize he is pursuing. For an example, a phone call is pursuing....unless it is about the children or business....however, if you discuss anything else with her, or even hang on the line too long waiting to see if she will talk more....that is pursuing. I have a long list that I often give newcomers. You may have already seen it. I think it has been passed around quite a bit, but if you want it, I'll give it to you.

It sounds like she is the one sounding "needy" when she asks you if you still love here, etc. How do you handle that?

Well, I am home on my lunch break and have to get back to work. Catch you later.

Sandi2

[robx]

Hi Sandy, you have helped quite a bit, along with all the others that took the time to respond to this thread and you are right, I've done alot of growing and I really am enjoying my life. On those days that I'm home alone and don't have the kids, I really don't feel alone, I thought about that the other night when I got home from work and I was actually pretty happy. I did some grocery shopping, made myself some supper, did some laundry, downloaded some new tunes for the mp3 player just before going to the gym @8pm (got home just after 10), seriously my days are busy and if I have to be honest, I appreciate the quiet down time: no one else's needs to take care of except my own, it's a nice time to have to yourself and I don't think people in general value personal time like that as much anymore and they probably should, helps clear your thoughts and allows you some relaxation time.

I can take responsibility for the things I've done wrong because I know I did them and only focusing on that instead of spending the majority of the time focusing on what she has done wrong, frees me up mentally to have a clearer head to think about things in general. I would be lying if I said I don't think about the things she has done to hurt me & treat me badly, they just don't occupy my thoughts 24/7.

Spilling my guts out on this forum helps too, talking about it and being honest. The internet affords us all a bit of anonymity which allows us to feel safe enough to be honest without fear of retribution.

If I detached so much that I would reject her if she did clean up her act and want to reconcile our marriage would be a sad thing but it's not the kind of sadness that would grip me in depression. I was depressed for a period of time but I'm doing really good and I'm enjoying a much better outlook on life that previously.

As for getting married young, I don't know, it's possible, I was 29 at the time, she was 27 - it's not too young I suppose (I'm 37 now), I've heard of younger. We've been together for quite a while, for several years before that so that plays into as well I guess.

I think detaching is important, not just to show the other person that you're moving on and to give them a possible fear of loss but it's healthy for you not to hang on to the other person so much because that would generate alot of disappointment and sadness with the constant rejection and I don't feel any rejection lately. Detaching frees you up to rediscover yourself and make you realize the importance of your individuality.

If she gets involved with someone else, her loss, seriously - I've told her this before and I'm not going to give it anymore thought. I would actually feel bad for the next guy, I doubt she could hide her depression and possible bi-polar for too long and once that is revealed, unless this other person really doesn't care and enjoys the repercussions of those issues, I don't see someone staying around that long to deal with that poor behavior. Once you get older, you've been in a few relationships, the unfortunate side effect is that you tend to be less tolerant of this kind of crap especially when there are so many people out there to choose from (hence the high rate of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. divorces).

She had asked me during a recent heated argument if I'm going to start dating and I've told her that it isn't her business either way - but unfortunately I didn't leave it at that (yes sometimes we want to let out some frustration as well), I told her that there are alot of woman out there that I'm sure would be happy to be with a guy like me and that I'm a normal person and we all want to be with someone special/loved by someone and if it's not her it will be someone else. That was probably rude of me to say so but like I said, I'm not perfect. Almost sounds like an ultimatum now that I think about it and I hate that it sounded like that.

As for the pursuing, I stopped my subtle pursuing (it felt like a cat & mouse game, again the sex issue was at play here - I think we both feed off of it). I haven't called her or texted her at all, over the weekend she got angry again (one of her moods) and said some very hurtful things and I told her not to call or txt me again until she apologized and seriously it's time to call a spade a spade and let her know that I won't tolerate crap language or behavior from her to me. It's ok to have moments of weakness and to lean on someone but it's not ok to beat up someone because you think you can and I let her know that.

She has been sounding needy lately, I noticed that too, possibly a side effect from the detaching and me not pursuing her like I normally do. If I did wrong let me know but yes when she was sad, teary eyed and reaching out and told me she loved me and asked me i still loved her, I did tell her that I love her, if that was wrong, say so. I was being honest but masculine at the same time, I didn't buckle, I maintained my composure, didn't melt in her arms but she did melt in mine, I held her. Maybe that isn't the way to handle it, maybe I should just go silent and walk out of the room, tell her that because she has hurt me so much, it's hard for me to believe any words that come out of her mouth. I'm seriously overthinking this, I'm sure, I am way too analytical for my own good sometimes.

I do want your list, when you have time to post it, please do, I'd love to read it, this forum has been an invaluable resource for this situation.

Thanks again for the great reply back!

[spellfire]

Sounds like you are DBing very well to me.

She has been sounding needy lately, I noticed that too, possibly a side effect from the detaching and me not pursuing her like I normally do. If I did wrong let me know but yes when she was sad, teary eyed and reaching out and told me she loved me and asked me i still loved her, I did tell her that I love her, if that was wrong, say so. I was being honest but masculine at the same time, I didn't buckle, I maintained my composure, didn't melt in her arms but she did melt in mine, I held her.

There ya go. Being that strong wall that I mentioned earlier gets these kinds of results. I don't think saying I love you was too much because it was on your own terms, and not an act of pursuit. Sounds like you are making some huge changes for the better. I am sure she is noticing. "Hold on to Your N.U.T.S" would be a good read for you right now, it would really cement what you are doing.

[robx]

I think the key and it is hard for some people is to own your strength and be strong for yourself. It's definitely not an overnight transformation but I read somewhere that if you act the way you want to be for a certain amount of time, you eventually adopt the framework & characteristics you were attempting to act like. I'm sure several months ago when I was trying to act like everything was ok, trying to appear happy, confident, etc. that it probably looked false and was transparent, easy to see through. But constantly learning about yourself, looking into personal development, getting counselling if you are depressed and need some therapy to get you back on your feet, taking care of yourself (going to a gym, getting healthier, stronger, more fit, eating better, shopping for new clothes & shoes, changing your boring old image, getting haircuts regularly,etc.) really goes a long way to building your self-esteem and feeling better about yourself. Once you start to feel better about yourself for real and you're no longer acting, you feel the strength that comes with that improved sense of self. You feel better about yourself because you are a better person and during that process you weren't with your spouse so you realize that in the end, the responsibility was always yours to take care of yourself and make yourself feel happy - that's another great lesson I've learned.

- I was that weak man that professed my undying love to a spouse who treated me horribly, took advantage of me, in the end was only interested in the things I could do for her and the paycheque I brought home.
- I was that weak man who put my wife on a pedestal and always felt she was too good for me
- I was that weak man who told my wife that I loved her more than myself and was afraid of losing her
- I was that weak man that let her walk all over me like a human doormat and accepted that poor treatment as a normal part of marriage (for better or for worse)
- I was that weak man who never asked for help because I felt like I didn't deserve help (again poor self-esteem)
- I was that weak man who believed that bad things happen to bad people and the reason I was treated so poorly and had such bad luck with my life, my wife and everything in this world was because I was somehow a bad person and I didn't do enough
- I was that weak man that believed that being a nice guy meant that you allowed people to treat you poorly and never complained about it
- I was that weak man that was too afraid to establish rules & boundaries with how people & my wife should treat me & respect me

I was that weak man.

I'm not a weak man anymore.

I am a strong man. I am becoming stronger everyday. I am strong and I don't have to step on other people to prove it. I prove it by taking care of myself, enjoying my individuality, setting a great example for my children, finally enjoying the work that I do (I was also that guy who complained about his dead end job, crappy hours, poor pay, overtime, etc.), going to the gym, working up a decent sweat, making myself physically stronger & healthier, shopping for myself and buying myself new clothes & items that I once believed that I never deserved... and this is all just the beginning. My friends see it, they see that I'm happy, funny again, they call me regularly (I had friends that called me regularly at the beginning of this mess just to make sure I was ok and wouldn't do something horrible to myself - the best friends a person could ask for, I'll always be thankful for them not giving up on me, my wife is actually jealous of them and has been for years, I never understood why, it's possibly because they treated me well always and she didn't like or respect that).

There are normal everyday things that people take for granted that would freeze me in my tracks: things like taking different routes to work or places that I'm travelling and being safe instead of intrepid, shopping for myself by myself whereas before I would be afraid to step in a store, let alone spend money on myself, spending money on myself and believing that I'm worth it whereas before never ever taking my needs into account.

I can do all of this without being resentful of my wife. It's not to say that I don't get angry every now & then (I'm human, it's normal emotion) but anger doesn't control my life anymore and I can't spend my entire day feeling sad or angry.

It's quite possible that without this marriage separation and how hurtful my wife was to me (and still is occasionally) that I would never have experienced the required stimulus to break out of my shell to become this person.

If you've ever heard the saying that you need to hit rock bottom to determine what direction up is, for me it's very accurate. It's pretty much when I lost everything that I considered important in my life that I discovered that I was the most important thing in my life and need to remember that always so that my children learn to be strong, happy, well rounded individuals with bright futures ahead of them and I can't just do it for them, I have to do it for me first for it to be a genuine lasting change.

I will definitely look for that book on amazon Mike, thanks again for the great reply back and affirming that some of the stuff I'm doing is working (at least I know it's working for me personally) - I've never felt better and more empowered as a human being.

It may sound sappy but it's the truth.

[JDOllie]

I'm stealing pretty much every word of this Rob - just so you know!

You just described me to a T - W still has an impact on me emotionally, but I've done all the rest, and am actually sort of surprised when I grew some balls, and stood up to W. She has backed down on every occasion - because I have been firm and not to be moved, but fair and considerate. Basically, a man.

Like this alot:

It's quite possible that without this marriage separation and how hurtful my wife was to me (and still is occasionally) that I would never have experienced the required stimulus to break out of my shell to become this person.

[spellfire]

Finally not being a doormat, having a sense of self-worth, finding your spine and standing up for yourself. Sappy? I think not!

Yeah, grab those books and the others I recommended to you while you are on there. I actually recommend "No More Mr Nice Guy" first, as it will give you a deeper understanding when reading the others.

[Delil@h]

Mike writes: Finally not being a doormat, having a sense of self-worth, finding your spine and standing up for yourself. Sappy? I think not! ;\)

Nope... you sound like a Real Man.
God bless you.
Ali