Quotes Found on Divorce Busting (III)

[Ready2Change]

Well, Quotes Found on DB (2) locked, And I keep finding words of wisdom so new thread starting...


To agree or validate:

Always validate.

WAW: "I want a divorce and I will never love you again.
I found someone else and am madly and passionately in love with them. I would like you to let me go and not try to win me back in any way shape or form. Please leave me alone and don't try to disagree with me that you don't want a divorce because it won't make any difference. My mind is made up."

You can go ahead and try to validate that without agreeing and I will take my chances agreeing. Agreeing helps them to FEEL validated far far better. When you disagree not only do they not feel validated, but YOU don't feel validated.

How validated would you feel if you told your spouse "I don't want this divorce and I understand you do, but I want to try."

And she says."I understand you don't want the divorce and want to try, but I am done and strongly disagree with you that it can even be saved. I want out. Nothing you can say will change my mind. I do want you to know I understand your feelings." (which IS what most WAS's are actually saying with their words and actions)


OR... would you rather hear?:

Betrayed: "I don't want this divorce and will do whatever it takes to make this work. I am sorry for what I have done."

WAW: "I have heard what you said, and I agree with you. I think you are right and we should try and I agree that we should do whatever to make this work."

Either way can be called "validating" One way you FEEL validated and the other, not so much..



So, you can validate till the cows come home, BUT if the OTHER PERSON doesn't FEEL validated it means nothing. It isn't what YOU feel is validating,but what the person you are communicating with that needs to feel validated for it to be true validation.

There is a time to validate and a time to agree. Know when each is appropriate.

While working on busting the D, I feel it is better to agree. Validation is better when both are working on the R.

[Ready2Change]

The battle YOU need to win is NOT CARING if she does.

You need to be able to look in the mirror and say: "I deserve better than this. If SHE resorts to THAT LEVEL of disrespect then she doesn't deserve me"

I am sure there are at least a dozen women in your area who would NOT resort to this sort of thing in a crisis...

That's the MOST IMPORTANT thing in a mate, it isn't how big her boobs are or how wild she gets in bed... It's how mature they are in a crisis that's most important.

In this respect your wife's probably looking pretty ugly right now.

You need to be in a place emotionally where you can say "I am OK with things going either way... I will be fine"

Once I DID that, that's when my wife actually started to turn around...

[Ready2Change]

“Go by your Values and Beliefs, not Your Feelings”

Respond in a way that reflects your values and beliefs, not your feelings. Feelings are fleeting, can be manipulated, can be dysfunctional, situational and are a poor compass. As a Coach and a former military officer I know lots of ways to change how you are feeling. Prisons are full of people who went with their feelings.

To be a great DBer you need to be able to think. Detach and look at the situation in 360 degrees. State your goals (which are consistent with your beliefs) and come up with a plan of action. If your actions work keep doing it, if not try something new. Open your mind and don't let fear hold you back from acting.

If you love your spouse and let them go. It's not lying to do that, even though you don't feel that is the best thing to do. Understand your feelings, know why you feel the way you do and take healthy productive action based on your goals.

You have a choice in how you handle things. You can choose the path of love, self-respect, healthy communication, forgiveness and responsibility for your self. Or you can choose to be a victim, make others responsible for your feelings and let things happen to you. "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Don't let your feelings define you. Let your actions which is a sign of your character. Handle it.

[Ready2Change]

For the record, my position on "snooping," from my personal archives:


And that right there is the problem with deciding to gather intel ("snooping"). If you can handle it, if you can detach yourself to such an extent that you are more "hovering above" the marriage than emotionally in the MIDDLE of it . . . almost like a "game-playing" mode . . . then the information you can gather is invaluable.

However, if it's only going to serve to beat you down, and defeat you, then it's probably best not to do it.

In general, I'm only in favor of snooping when:

- you’re initially trying to confirm an affair;

- as a gathering of evidence for a "cause" legal action of adultery, or to help you make a decision about custody;

- to confirm no-contact, as part of a MUTUALLY-AGREED-UPON transparency plan;

- you are concerned about dissipation of marital assets, or a drug, gambling or alcohol addition, or some other behavior that might prove harmful to the family.

[Ready2Change]

Dan: "OK, I'm sure the kids will miss you, but this is probably for the best if I just take them. Look, I gotta run and (insert GAL activity here). I'll talk to you later."

Puppy

Do you see how this RESPONSE is validating your W's decision that D is the best answer? Do you see how this is not pursing behavior?

I see it. Still learning. I have to prepare for these situations better. After conversations, I always think, "I should have said ths, or I should have said that." I need to practice the outcomes before I get myself into these situations. I am not always so quick on my feet.

No big deal. So follow up with her, immediately, and say "You know, the more I think about it, there's really nothing to think about, and I don't mean to keep you hanging. I'm sure the kids will miss you, but this is probably for the best if I just take them. Look, I gotta run and (insert GAL activity here). I'll talk to you later."

[Ready2Change]

It's not about trust guys, its about safety.

I have often heard or seen women and men say "You have to trust me... Don't you trust me?"

When I was a kid 15 or so years ago that phrase was important and I was completely on side with that point... But NOW I see it a different way...

NOW when I hear "Don't you trust me?" or "We have to trust each other" I think

What he or she is SAYING is :

"I realize you are getting anxious that I am taking uncessary risks with our relationship. Despite how uncomfortable, anxious, and panicked you are about my contacting attractive men or women I am going to pursue that contact and I dont' care if you are uncomfortable... how much I enjoy myself is more important than your feeling safe in our marriage."

Now when I see a TV show or something and I hear people go on and on about the importance of trust in a relationship I just start calling Bullshite...

They aren't askign for trust, they are asking for their spouse to SUCK UP panic attacks so THEY can play fast and lose with their commitments... Not Cool

I do trust and I can. But My willingness to trust is parallel with my spouse's attention to taking safety measures.

If I am in a car with someone and they start to break a lot of traffic laws and speed.. .I will call them on it. If they say "Don't you trust me" I would just say

"I trust people who put the safety of themselves and others on the road first and foremost on their minds. YOu aren't doing that. I trust mature behaviour.. And I aint seein any here."

Marriages are no different than minding the rules of the road. If you want to get safely to your destination, you need to pace your vehicle and follow the rules of the road.

Trust isn't the issue, its how mature are they to the rules of safe driving and marriage.

People who play fast and loose with rules, can't be trusted and shouldn't be.

R2C, you need to STICKY that sucka into your "Quotes" thread!!!


Puppy

[SunnyD]

I love that you post these...I find them extremely helpful esp when I need the confidence boost!

[Ready2Change]

Leaving her a card, treats, and having phone sex with her right after she cops to all of her infidelity is your idea of "taking it slow?"

Go back and read your post, CP. Look at what it is she's responding to: tough legal stance, putting yourself out there to other women, your distance.

I'm glad she's putting a stay on the D and asking you back, but I'll be blunt: you only get ONE shot at this critical stage of it, and I'll tell you what nearly EVERYONE does wrong at this point:

They immediately go all "melty-man."

She has to EARN her way back, and you need to be ready with what your list of boundaries are for when she asks "What will it take?"

DO NOT WAVER.

Puppy

[Ready2Change]

Would a written letter or email about no contact be good? It's something tangible that she can read over and over again. Or would that come off as spineless and weak? Idk, have a lot of studying to do!

E-mails are weak.

Best to say in-person, and then FOLLOW UP with an e-mail, confirming what was said.

Puppy

[Ready2Change]

I had an idea QS.

Some of your friends know your wife has filed...

Can you get a female to call your house up pretending to be interested in you and leave your wife to answer?

You want to tell your wife "No, you just tell her I am not interested unless my divorce is final. I am not talking to other women right now."

And when she hangs up and asks why this woman is calling :

"My idiot friend knows how difficult you are being about all this and its trying to set me up to make me feel better. That won't and I know it. I am honoring my commitments and I don't need female interference right now. I have projects on the go here anyhow."

I dunno... something like that... Just to see what kind of reaction she offers up...

[Ready2Change]

How do you know when the ignoring them is working?

"Going dark" is not "ignoring them," nor is MWD's concept of "detachment."

And you don't do it so it "works," you do it because it's healthier for YOU to detach yourself from their destructive outcomes.

The best way I had someone describe it to me once is, "You should walk down the path, always shining a light back towards your marraige, but walking on nonetheless. Do NOT constantly look back over your shoulder to see if she is following you! If you do that, it's really just "pursuing" (albeit from the front, rather than behind).

Rather, every once in awhile, stop along your path to rest, and PEEK to see if she is following you. If she is, smile and move on, resuming your walk and content to know that you are having some effect. And if she NOT, smile and move on anyway, knowing that what you are doing is best for YOU."

A wayward wife is like a watched pot. It's never going to boil if you watch it.

Persevere = happily being patient over a long period of time

Being happy alone and "living" each day is key. Be a role model to your WAS.

[Ready2Change]

I was given an exceptional piece of advice at this very same stage of my sitch, and I'm glad I followed it: treat your spouse with civility and grace, and it will pay you dividends down the road regardless of what the two of you decide to do. Hugs

Good advice. I continue to do this. What you sow, you will reap.

[Ready2Change]

Strong men are men of much ACTION, and very few WORDS. And it is a tenet of DB to not TALK about your changes, but to live them out, quietly and confidently, in front of the runaway spouse....She's not looking for a chick best friend -- she's looking for a husband who will make a strong, principled stand to fight for his marriage, in my opinion.

You are like me -- you fancy yourself a wordsmith. I thought if I could just put together JUUUUST the right combination of words, and deliver in them in JUUUUUUUUUST the right way, I could win my wife back and make her see the error of her ways.

Unh-uh. Doesn't work that way.

Look, I"m not saying that everything you've written isn't TRUE and GOOD. It probably is (again, I never made it thru it all). I'm saying that "making grand pronouncements" about your changes doesn't work.

I think you need to shoot for about 90% less. Seriously.

The less words, the bigger the punch. Actions always speak louder than words.

[Ready2Change]

"Then all I have to say is this. I will not live in an open marriage. I will not hide your lies or affair. They are disrespectful. I will send you info on a few mediators I have looked into. XXX is the best choice. I will set an appointment for as early in August as possible to draw up our Separation Agreement. I should have all my banking and documentation gathered by then. You should, too.
Divorce is my last option. It is clear that it is your first and easiest. What you are doing to this family is irresponsible. But if this is your decision, then you will own it.
Perhaps one day we can be friends.

I have to go out. See you later."

[Ready2Change]

Lets ask this... if your H did run into you today... would he see a completely different woman?

That's what this time away from him is FOR.. its not for looking at photos of him, its to work on yourself..

[Ready2Change]

....but discussing future finances and selling of assets probably isn't productive to your R and M. The next time she brings it up, and what worked for me, should go something like this:

W: I think we should talk about selling X.
H: Hmm. Really?
W: Yes, I think we should because of XYZ.
H: I'll have to think about that.
W: What's there to think about? It makes sense.
H: Maybe so, but I'd like to think about it.

The longer you don't talk about these things, the more it becomes less of a priority. I made the mistakes of laying out all finances and custody arrangements, etc in the beginning, and I wish that I hadn't.

[Ready2Change]

MOVE BACK INTO YOUR OWN BEDROOM. TODAY.

This is probably the ONE THING in all of DB where there is unanimous consensus. When she asks WTH you're doing, say "I decided there's no reason I shouldn't sleep in my own bed. I'm more comfortable here." If she says that she's not comfortable with YOU in there, calmly say "I understand, but you don't have to leave. But it's your choice -- I'm staying here."

Puppy

[Ready2Change]

He does NOT hold the cards.. YOU do. But you are throwing them away worrying about HIM. You have the cards to YOUR life and what YOU DO with it.

Suppose ten years from now he's gone and still hasn't grown up or contacted you... do YOU still want to be where YOU are NOW? Pining away for someone like that?

Look at you now and fast forward ten years and ask yourself what are YOU doing to get where YOU want to be in ten years time?

Focus on THAT.. YOU have ALL THE CARDS for that.. NOT HIM... NOT NOW...

You may be loyal to HIM, but you aren't to yourself if you waste another second pining for him.

Let him go, enjoy your life, do something productive. If he grows up while you are doing that then that's great... but don't sit around waiting for that to happen.

You are betraying YOU if you do that...

Let me put it this way... as he IS NOW... NO SINGLE FEMALE on this ENTIRE FORUM would so much as TOUCH HIM right now because of his immaturity...

So why are YOU wasting YOUR LIFE PINING for him?

[Ready2Change]

...What helped me was to script out my 2nd, longer, "The Deceit's Gotta Stop" confrontation with my wife. Practiced it, over and over, even out loud, in my office. Rehearsed my body language, and my inflection, and my eye contact. Probably two dozen times.

It left me VERY prepared, and pretty calm. A 1/2-pill of my anti-anxiety meds took care of the other half nicely.

Another technique I use when nervous is to remind myself of all the ways that the OTHER person ought to really be the nervous one! And that's certainly true in your case. YOU are fighting the noble fight, and your wife is lying and fleeing and generally acting of poor character!

Who said this had to be a 15-second script? I'd suggest about a 3-minute one, give or take...

[Ready2Change]

Time and Patience are the keys to success. Whatever your W tells you today does not necessarily mean that is the way she will always think. She can change her mind. She has already proven that, right?? She made a vow to be faithful to you and she changed her mind about that…….soooo….even if she says she done today, does not mean she will not change her mind in the future.

What I am saying here is that the decision that your M is over really lies with you. You still have the power not your W. The difficult part of this is choosing the road less traveled, the road that is not easy, it is all uphill filled with pot holes and at times you may even look down and find it hard to see the road at all. This road however leads to a better you, a happier more fulfilling life and yes possibly the restoration of your M.

[Ready2Change]

I told my D23 this the other day, and altho I was referring to these tough financial times, I think it applies to marriage and Rs and DBing, too:

"(D23), there's a time for swimming and a time for treading water. Right now, if you're treading water, you're doing pretty well."

It's an offshoot of the "He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day," with a twist.

Keep treadin' There will be time for swimming again in your future soon enough.

[Ready2Change]

Yup.. let her guilt stew and beat her senseless... This is how people GROW UP... Her mother's been bailing her out all the time so she's never had to process emotional growth yet...

Hurts like hell having to grow up when you are thirty years old. It's a lot easier to do it gradually when you are a child... oh well...

Just remember to throw the TD and get OUT of there... or it becomes a free for all...

Next time she says she needs money :


Filing for divorce without even trying to negotiate with your spouse kinda puts you in a financial bind it does ya... So does lying to your parents

But YOU filed, not the dog... Why is it because YOU want something everyone ELSE has to suffer for it?

[Ready2Change]

Allen A GOOD STATEMENTS For SCRIPT TO WAS:

Stop. We both know you're lying. If that's all you have then I have more important things to attend to. Please excuse me...
Get up to leave...

Puppies classic: I have decided I will no longer lie to cover up your infidelity and destructive behavior.

When you say one thing and do other I have no choice but to protect this family by verifying your claims... Which did indeed turn out as suspected - LIES

Rationalization/re-write "I understand your viewpoint. Thank you for sharing. Please know I see it differently"

But if there is any lying do NOT say Thank you

If the M comes up as part of it "I understand your view. We have had that argument before. It was not constructive and I know now that you can't talk your way to a better marriage. That requires effort; understanding and action. We did none of these"

Our marriage has problems outside of your infidelity. Your choice of response to those problems is to make them WORSE by introducing an interloper to cause a great deal of stress and damage to your reputation, my commitment, and your daughter's well being. Marital problems need to be met with solutions - not lies and cheating.

Your choice - continue cheating and make things worse, or end the cheating and make things better.

The ball's in your court there. Continue cheating and hurting your own children OR make a commitment to solve the problem constructively.

Blame game -"I now know that our marriage wasn't working for either of us and I completely accept my half of the responsibility for that and am sorry for the hurt it caused you. "

I now know that our marriage wasn't satisfactory for you or me. I completely accept my half of the responsibility for that and am sorry for the hurt it caused you. The other half, and your subsequent affair to aggravate those problems is all on you.

OR

I am willing to take ownership of my HALF of our marital problems UP TO the affair. The other 50% of the marital problem and this hurtful affair is ALL YOURS.

The hopelessness of our M/feelings justify A
"It is clear now that we both needed to either agree and work together to completely rebuild our M or it would end. I firmly believe a rebuild was possible but your choices took that option away from me.

We both needed to either work together to rebuild our Marriage or work competitively to destroy each other and our daughter. You made a choice to destroy the marriage instead of repairing it. You chose to drag out daughter through a sleazy affair instead of picking up the phone to call a family therapist or anyone.. anyone instead of going to him and hurting your own family like this.

If the guilt leads her to "friend street", I will kindly decline and say "Perhaps one day we can, but not now"

I cannot allow you to treat me or your daughter like this. Friends do not lie, cheat on, and abandon their friends.

You are no friend to me or your daughter right now - you are just lying and doing a world of damage you will one day be ashamed of. One day you will have to look our daughter in the eye and she will tell you how horrible you've been. That day you will be the most ashamed mother on the planet.

You must be very proud.

"Then all I have to say is this. I will not live in an open marriage. I will not hide your lies or affair. They are disrespectful. I will send you info on a few mediators I have looked into. XXX is the best choice. I will set an appointment for as early in August as possible to finalize up our Separation Agreement. I should have all my banking and documentation gathered by then. You should, too.
Divorce is my last option. It is clear that it is your first and easiest. What you are doing to this family is selfish and irresponsible. But if this is your decision, then you will own the consequences.

I have to go out. See you later."

I will not live in an open marriage. Our daughter will not live in an open marriage. I will not hide your lies or affair. They are disrespectful to me and your daughter, and even to you. A mediator of my choice will be in contact with you very shortly. I will set an appointment as soon as possible to finalize the Separation Agreement. Have all your banking and documentation gathered by then for legal review.

You have a choice to help your family, or destroy it. What you are doing to this family is selfish and irresponsible. But if this is your decision, then you will own the consequences and myself and our daughter will be as far from it as we can get and we won't be looking back.

I have things to do that are a lot more important than listening to your excuses.

[Ready2Change]

...Your intuition about your life is frequently one of the best indicators available. If you suspect your spouse might be cheating on you, do some investigating and then confront him or her with what you've found. Do it in a way that is calm and courteous. Ask for honesty. Be prepared for lies. It is a sad fact that people having affairs become brilliant liars - people who never told a lie before in their lives. Trust your gut...

[Ready2Change]

1. Get proof.

2. Do either:

2a. Aggressive affair-busting (see Allen A's posts); or

2b. "Set her free" (Robx/Gucci approach)

Those are the only two things I've seen work. If #1 turns up nothing, then proceed to 2b.

[Ready2Change]

My wife felt like the last two weeks, where I had dropped the rope, that I was becoming cold and detached. So it's a fine line.

It just means you don't get it yet. Dropping the rope doesn't mean you are cold and detached. It means her problems are her problems, you are busy taking care of yourself, you don't get baited into a fight, you will let her come to you when she is ready, you are responsible for your own happiness and you won't waste energy on pursuing her. Be a cat whisperer.

[Ready2Change]

Yes, it's a personal decision for everyone. I know why my W left. I know what I need to do for my sitch and it's not dating. I can completely understand Gucci's advice about dating though, but again, it's just not for me. I do like Gucci's other advice to me.

I understand about the dating it doesn't mean you can't be mysterious and interact with women. Get on FB and start making friends with some women - DB friends, old HS/college friends, co-workers etc. Go out with your friends to bars, listen to music, festivals. The word will get back to your wife that you are a busy man. You don't have to cross any of your beliefs or values to accomplish the same thing.

It's not about dating, it's about being mysterious and keeping her guessing. If asked, be vague.

Don't make things easy for her. Make things easy for you.

[Ready2Change]

Be careful in the conversation that you do not tell her how she feels. That makes a woman furious! Don't lecture her and try to get her to be reasonable. All those actions point to her needing to be different and makes you look "controlling".

It's more about listening to what she wants. Then it's about what you want. Here's the thing, you want to sound strong and confident in place of being freaked out. You want to sound sure of yourself and not pleading, whiney, etc.

When I was a WAW, the more my H made statements about fighting for our M, or statements like that....it turned me off soooo bad! You don't have to tell her you are standing for the M. If that's what you want....then just do it. I really think the less you say about your feelings....the better.

[Ready2Change]

Wow, just realized that my last post was my 16,999th, and so I figured I'd better post something REALLY MEANINGFUL and INSIGHTFUL for my next one.

So here it is. Call it


"Puppy's Short Version, All-Inclusive Advice" for Waylayed Spouses Who Just Got Bombed"


1. Get proof (of whether or not there's OM/OW). Hint: There almost always is.


2. Do either:

2a. Aggressive affair-busting (see Allen A's posts over in Infidelity)

Allen A's Posts

; or

2b. "Set Them Free" (Robx/Gucci approach)

"Setting Them Free"


Those are the only two things I've seen work. If #1 turns up nothing, then proceed to #2b. And in the meantime, GAL your ass off, and become the better option. Best case, you'll attract them back, and at a minimum you'll become a better person that will be more attractive to SOMEBODY in your next relationship.

Puppy

[Ready2Change]

I just wish everything comes out, so we can move forward. That is what I want. I want all the skeletons to come out, no matter how bad. I just don't know how to get to that point with out flat telling or pressuring her to do so.

Wishing isn't a plan.

"Here is what I need in my marriage___________, ___________, _____________, and________________. If you can't respect that then I have decided that I can't be married to you."

The blanks are the non-negotiable issues. "I won't share you with another man."Joint decisions on how we spend our money."

You then need ways to verify these issues. Transparency: access to each others e-mail, FB, cell phone etc. Weekly discussions about your finances. Find solutions that work for you two.

You steer clear of the emotions by thinking thru the issues. Calm, cool and collected. Lead on brother.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

[quote=Puppy Dog Tails]Wow, just realized that my last post was my 16,999th, and so I figured I'd better post something REALLY MEANINGFUL and INSIGHTFUL for my next one.

So here it is. Call it


"Puppy's Short Version, All-Inclusive Advice" for Waylayed Spouses Who Just Got Bombed"


1. Get proof (of whether or not there's OM/OW). Hint: There almost always is.


2. Do either:

2a. Aggressive affair-busting (see Allen A's posts over in Infidelity)

Allen A's Posts

; or

2b. "Set Them Free" (Robx/Gucci approach)

"Setting Them Free"


Those are the only two things I've seen work. If #1 turns up nothing, then proceed to #2b. And in the meantime, GAL your ass off, and become the better option. Best case, you'll attract them back, and at a minimum you'll become a better person that will be more attractive to SOMEBODY in your next relationship.

Puppy

Thanks, but you still missed my best one, yesterday. I even put a "Yes, Ready2Change, you need to STICKY THAT SUCKA!!" in it.

[Ready2Change]

I did read it:

I too used to cry out to God, in the middle of the night sometimes, "Why aren't you answering my prayers??!" I was in a 20-year sex-starved marriage, and as a man with a very high need for affection and physical touch, it was absolutely KILLING me.

"Change my wife's heart," I pleaded.

"Soften her heart towards me," I wailed.

"Holy Spirit, please move upon her heart and make her see how much I'm hurting," I cried.

Well, God had other plans for me, and for us, and they were different from what I thought they should be. Now, looking back, I can see how much I needed to grow, and strengthen. HE knew that, but I thought I knew better.

We often pray for a magic wand, NB, but God more often than not gives us a trowel. It's in the day-to-day little "digging" that we usually find ourselves, and grow stronger.

Pray for wisdom, and for CLARITY. And then pray for COURAGE, to do the right thing.

My understanding is that changing the focus of your prayers inward works the best....

My wife said she prayed for years for me to change....It took awhile, but her prayers have been answered.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

My understanding is that changing the focus of your prayers inward works the best....

I agree.

[Ready2Change]

Allen A finally put my understanding into words:

in a way this whole thing is a sick twisted test of YOUR MANHOOD...

The key thing that you hit on is respect

Your wife is never going to respect you until you start protecting her family.. in a way this whole thing is a sick twisted test of YOUR MANHOOD...

Are you man enough to forgive her cheating, toss the grease-ball off of your network, and turn this whole marriage around?

Are you man enough to do all that or are you going to sulk or run like a child?

I know it sucks because THEY are doing what they criticize YOU for but you have a chance to turn this around.

a. Expose to OM's wife
b. Shut down the network
c. Get your wife to start respecting her family

You do this with actions, not talk or anniversary cards.. Parental and protective actions...

Women don't want to admit it but they get a perverse pleasure out of seeing their spouse beat the crap out of predators to their home and family...

They will tell you they hate violence, but she WILL respect you for taking some action on this...

[Ready2Change]

Maybe they are just looking out for their needs. Your WAS is not your enemy, they are another person who is hurt, confused, and searching for answers. They are not doing it the way the LBS wants. Until you can detach and look at your sitch like your are "looking into the fishbowl" and see your M for what it is in reality and the feelings that surround it then you remain stuck.

Blaming your WAS for how they feel doesn't work. Seek to understand how they feel and then the solutions appear. Compassion is what you need to see them.

[Ready2Change]

Remember this adage about cheaters? All Cheaters lie? Well, the same goes with addicts. Go on her behavior, not her words.

Heck, that pretty much applies to everyone. If we judged people more on actions than words, think how better off we'd be.

[DumpedforMIL]

this one looked like it came from my thread.
i have to admit, i go back to my thread and the vets have left some good advice.

[Ready2Change]

Do you understand this? Your wife is not attracted to you. What would make your wife want to jump your bones? What does she need from you?

She needs space and time. I have to keep repeating that to myself. Space. Time. Space. Time. She's not leaving as long as I give her those two things.

No, not exactly. You can give her all the time & space in the universe but if you appear to be a weak sister to her then there is no way she's going to find that sexy! Don't you get it? She wants you to be sexy!

You are a 28 yr old man who is wanting to have sex with his wife....really badly. It has you to the point that you can't think of much of anything else. (Hey, I use to be married to a 28 yr old man.)

Anyway, you need to think about how you were when she met you and fell in love with you. She really wants to feel romantic love for you, but she can't. Maybe she doesn't know why....and maybe you don't know why....and maybe that C doesn't know, but honey....I know. She has another man on her mind (and perhaps more) and all she has to do is have a heart to heart with you and then you're convinced that everything is lovely. She can wrap you around her little finger, b/c you "want" to believe her. You "want" the M to be good.

So, here's the thing.....first of all, don't believe anything she tells you. Stop asking questions that she's going to lie about.

Next, set boundaries of the things you cannot tolerate in your M, b/c she needs to respect those boundaries or get out. Read Coach's thread on boundaries.

Now the big thing....work on a do-over for yourself. Get in shape, get a new look that says...."Look at me girl, you would be crazy to leave a man like me!" If you don't look cool and sexy, then find a friend who'll tell you what to do to get there. Polish up your manners, personality, social life and faith (not necessarily in that order).

Get your focus off of her. Act as if you are not hurt by what she does b/c after all...you are a man who is confident and you don't have to be reassured every day that she still loves you. (BTW,don't tell her you love her while all this stuff she's doing is going on...and don't tell her just to see if she'll say it back).

Get out of that house and find something to fill your life. Leave when she is there. Look smoking hot with a big smile, walk out the door with a "see ya" and no details of what your plans are. Do you get what I'm saying here?

She needs to see a strong, sexy, man who is desirable. When she said she felt like you were another child, that told the story right then and there. Stop whining, pleading,fishing, etc.

Now if you want her to want you? You act as if you could care "less" if you ever had sex with her again. Notice I said with her. Take cold showers, take care of your own needs....but you act as if she's your kid sister visiting and you're really trying to just be "nice". If you do this the right way....she'll be chasing after you. But this other stuff she's been doing?.....she's playing you, that's all.

[Ready2Change]

My question is, ...HOW can I let him know that I either want to work on the marriage or divorce (no separating) without him getting mad/defensive.

I don't accept your premise

Whether or not he gets "mad/defensive" should have absolutely NO bearing on what your decision-making is.

If I could give you ONE PIECE of advice for DBing, it would be this:

Stop operating from a position of "What will he do if I do/say thus-and-such? Will he be angry? How will his reaction make ME feel?"

and instead, learn to operate from a basis of:

What is THE RIGHT THING TO DO in this situation? What is the thing that God Himself would have me do, if He were standing right in front of me?

Until you do that . . . you will get nowhere.

[Ready2Change]

How much control does any of of us have over another person? You can take lots of productive action for yourself and your family. Protect your finances and emotional well-being. Know your legal rights. Use your spiritual side. Be loving to yourself, kids, family and your WAS. Be a person of high character, values and morals. Set personal, legal, moral boundaries and enforce them. Become the best person you can in a tough environment - thrive.

I think fear is the biggest enemy of any DBer. The solution is to "love yourself." All the DB techniques and good advice here boils down to that concept. It's very attractive as well. How confident do you look when you accept that you are already dead (divorced)? It's not that you don't want to survive but that you accept that you don't control the outcome but will do whatever the situation calls for without hesitation. You have to be prepared - understand how the game is played and know what works given the situation. Do you want to go up against a prepared, disciplined, able, strong, and determined opponent? Who would you follow? Lead your family.

[Ready2Change]

I wish I had been able to apply such a philosophy sooner in my situation, but the reason I didn't, and couldn't, is one that is ignored by this philosophy. My kids. My young kids who were being put through h*ll by their mother's reckless actions. I couldn't just say "Fine. You want him, you can have him", because I would effectively be saying "Fine. I freely give up half my kids' lives, and have no problem with you bringing a predator step-father into their lives." I was also grieving horribly for the loss of the family the kids were enduring. When kids are involved, especially young kids, it's not a simple act of letting the wayward spouse go, because they take some of the kids' lives with them. No court in my state would have ever awarded me with full custody.

Nobody here has ever advocated that thinking. Your WAS is already splitting time with the kids and introducing the OP to them. That's why you have a L, Gucci calls it "having your ducks in a row." Seperation/Divorce agreements have some very specific language about time your children can spend with other adults. Break a judges order and see how that works for you.

A WAS and their L know how to prey on your "feelings." A good DBer will check their emotions/feelings at the door (detach), use their brain and combat their WAS feelings with feelings. You can't apply your logic to someone else's feelings and expect it to influence them. You change how they feel about you.

[Ready2Change]

Without being too dramatic, I would contend to you that this is one of those handful of DEFINING MOMENTS in your life. How you respond to this will say everything about your character, your morals, and how high of an integrity bar that you set for yourself.

Think this one over carefully, and then respond with absolute CLARITY to your wife. Every hour that goes by since she lobbed this amoral grenade into your lap, starts to define YOU and what you stand for.

[Ready2Change]

LRT, that's another really good one. Saying "Hmm, it doesn't sound like we're going to agree about this right now; let me think about that and we can discuss it later when we each have more time" or something is a great technique.

I added that first part because the key to these techniques is to FIRST let the person know that they HAVE BEEN HEARD, even if you disagree with what it is you've heard them say.

"I hear you saying that you feel ________ . I understand. My feeling is __________ , I feel strongly about it, and it sounds like we're going to have to agree to disagree about this right now. Let me think about it some more. We can talk more about this later."

Puppy

[Ready2Change]

IF the affair is shut down you can be cordial... But if its NOT then you being cordial just enables her to pursue the affair further...

You want to present yourself as a different person.. Don't bother telling her you are different, be different or don't bother contacting her...

start jogging, join a volunteer group, completely renovate your wardrobe, start taking courses at the local college...

[Ready2Change]

She said she wants to end our marriage as quickly and painlessly as possible. When I asked her what the hurry was, she said that her feelings could not be changed, and that she did not want to hate me after this. I told her that I would come home, that we could work on it together, and she said that she didn't want to anymore. She said that if I needed to come home, she more than understood, but she was still going forward with this. How do you argue with that? I couldn't!

YES, YOU COULD (and should). You say:

"I'm really sorry you feel that way. I certainly hear you, and that this is what you want. It's not what I want, however, and I think we owe it to our kids to not just cut and run here because one of us suddenly wants out of the marriage."

Gator, this is CLASSIC infidelity addiction talking. Was this woman previously a good mother? A good wife? A woman of good moral character? You seem like a great guy, and I find it hard to believe you would have picked anyone who WASN'T for your life partner. Why would a woman like this suddenly THROW THAT ALL AWAY, WITHOUT EVEN TRYING???

It's the ADDICTION talking. What you need to decide is, do you want to FIGHT that, and aggressively try to bust the affair (separate the addict from the source of their addiction), and then DB ("2a"), or if you want just go the "Setting Them Free" route ("2b").

Here's the thing. A lot of people pick "2b" right out of the chute, or -- worse -- they don't even do THAT right (there's an ART to doing it, as Gucci outlines in his current, excellent thread on the subject). This is NOT the same as "giving up/giving in." And they do that (pick "2b") because they think it's EASIER.

But the sad, painful truth is, no matter WHAT you do ("2a," "2b," "While They Wait," something else), YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO WADE THRU A WHOLE BUNCH OF CHIT FOR THE NEXT 3-24 MONTHS. People think if they just stop fighting, the pain goes away. But it doesn't, and it'll actually be WORSE, because you'll be all down on yourself for NOT doing what you think is "The Right Thing to Do," and you won't be setting the agenda for your family.

WHY ARE YOU ALLOWING YOUR WIFE TO SET THE AGENDA FOR THE POTENTIAL END OF YOUR MARRIAGE, when she is the ONE person who DOES NOT HAVE ITS BEST INTERESTS AT HEART RIGHT NOW???

In fact, I'll take it one further: She does not have your FAMILY'S best interests at heart right now.

We can talk about all of the specifics, but this (deciding what you want to do) is really the first thing that has to happen.

Puppy

[Ready2Change]

This is why I told you in my very first posts to you to GET LEGAL ADVICE. Your attorney can help give you the "best case/worst case" scenarios, so that you can make an informed decision about your risks, rights, vulnerabilities, etc. Have you talked to one yet??

No one's asking you to gamble away your visitation/custody with your kids ... you're getting WAY ahead of yourself. Wanna know what ONE THING you should do? You're right, don't spend the $$$ on a PI --- spend it on a bulldog, "men's rights" family law attorney, who specializes in father's rights and paternal custody issues. Get a consultation, and learn more about what you're dealing with here.

[Ready2Change]

having a difficult time digesting the rest of Greek's post. it is very different from what other's suggest.

I'm going to call you out on that. Read the following quotes from your other threads:

Several people I respect have given you sound advice, yet you still complain that there's nothing about/for women specifically. It seems to me that you're looking for someone to tell you exactly what to do to make your H see the error of his ways and come running home.

There are no guarantees. Some people save their Rs, some people don't. The successful DBer is someone who has recognized their faults and mistakes, works hard at improving her/himself and does things to make her/himself happy so that the next R is a good one.

Drop the rope (no, you really haven't) and stop worrying about why H does anything. Do the work on yourself and make yourself happy.

I think dropping the rope might work because it appears to be the one thing you haven't truly tried yet.

Dropping the rope is something which an emotionally healthy individual does when faced with a R with someone who does not want to be with them. People aren't possessions. They aren't ours to push and control in one direction or another. One of the common threads I see on this board is most of us are codependent and have an unhealthy and distorted sense of R. I once created a post asking how many people came from alcoholic homes and quickly got quite a few responses.

Dropping the rope is healthy for YOU. When you use it as a tactic to get something you want it will probably backfire. Just my opinion based on my own experience with attempting to control people/places/things.

That principle is that you should be REJECTING a man who doesn't treat you right and walks away from you. This is the same for men as it is for women. It shows low self esteem to keep trying to get a person to come back to you that says and shows they want out.

THAT type of self esteem is what is POSSIBLY the beginning of getting them back. START THERE... Instead of asking us things like you keep asking, you should be sayin "I don't want to be with ANY man who doesn't want me and show me he wants me"..

These are posts to you from 4 other posters here who have suggested the same thing I did and have before. There are many more like it - these took about 2 seconds to find. Didn't even have to dig for them. For you to claim that you now have to process what I wrote to you b/c it was a 2x4 (which it is) and DIFFERENT from what you are getting from others (which it is not) is simply sticking your head in the sand (which you are free to do) ~~~ but call it what it is.

[Ready2Change]

I don't know why you can't deal with this time in your marriage the way we've advised others on this forum to manage their marriage when a wayward spouse returns to the marriage following an affair. Just b/c you had consented to the A really doesn't change your approach now in my opinion.

Require transparency on her part. The security that she is indeed ALL IN going forward is necessary for you to heal and the marriage to get feet firmly on the ground.

You've already put the boundary about OM in place. But if she's just coming back to be in a sort of roommate arrangement with you, is that satisfying for you? If not, this boundary should be declared, as well. "Wife, I understand that you are working through and struggling with many things right now. I'm patient but not a martyr. I need intimacy in my marriage and I want to know if you will commit to what it will take to work toward that goal for us." That could be counseling, Retro weekend and follow up, religious counseling or whatever you all find.

Also, it is important for you to take care of yourself. You have got to have some scar tissue from these last 6 years of open marriage. Self image, self esteem, confidence, all must have taken a hit. How are you going to recover that ground? What do you do for fun - just for you? Where are your interests and are they reflected in your life? Hobbies? Friends? Taking care of you is KEY!

[Ready2Change]

"I've been thinking a lot lately, and I don't think what we're setting up will work for me. I now realize that I don't want to live with someone that really doesn't want to be with me. It just isn't what I want in life. So, I have decided that we should separate and work towards divorce. I think you should find another place to live as soon as possible, a little after you return from the Couples weekend. We should also tell the girls when you return. Having this linger til the Spring will do neither of us any good, nor the girls.

We can work on the finances when you return, as well as figuring out what to do about the house and joint custody. I'm sorry it didn't work out between us, but I have really heard what you've said and realized that maybe this is for the best for everyone.

I don't think it's productive to go to see our C in joint counseling since there's no desire on your part to reconcile. I wish that were different, and part of me will always hold on to a small piece of hope, but that's no way to live."

[Ready2Change]

Well she called me at lunch just now and asked how I was doing. We chit-chatted about 5 minutes and i told her I needed to go so I could eat lunch.

Better: " . . . needed to go, as I had a really busy day and was already late for an appointment."

I then told her I was going out tonight. She asked with who, I told her my friend Eddie and a bunch of his friends are going downtown and I didn't know when I'd be back.

Better: " . . . I told her 'Just a bunch of people, we're going downtown and I don't know when I'll be back."

[Ready2Change]

I would tell her "Considering where we are with our marriage right now, I don't feel the need to tell you everywhere I'm going, and with whom. Please stop interrogating me all the time -- it's annoying, and -- frankly -- very unattractive."

[Ready2Change]

Here's a list of signs:


50 Indicators of Infidelity.

1. A sudden upturn in their demeanor or outlook on life.
2. Constantly late.
3. More possessive toward wallet, pocket calendar or briefcase.
4. Comes home more often with alcohol on breath.
5. Starts talking about getting together with old friends they haven't seen in years.
6. Starts shopping for new clothes.
7. Starts taking a renewed interest in their appearance.
8. Starts keeping an overnight bag in their car or office, ostensibly for a workout or a game of tennis.
9. Orders dishes or new household items never ordered before.
10. Does not look at other women/men as much as they used to.
11. Starts working late and on holidays and weekends.
12. Express opinions on subjects that they never had an interest in.
13. Takes a new interest in anticipated schedule.
14. Encourages you to visit parents or friends alone.
15. They give you gifts that show a new level of taste or insight about the opposite sex.
16. Car is kept free of paraphernalia belonging to you or the kids.
17. Starts attending extended seminars or conventions.
18. Start using new words and phrases.
19. At odd hours they start remembering things they forgot to do at the office.
20. They suggest that you open up separate checking accounts.
21. Often forget to wear wedding ring.
22. Takes the dog for much longer walks.
23. Makes more phone calls late at night.
24. A marked change of attitude towards secretary, colleagues or friends.
25. Suddenly takes up new hobbies or friends that take them out of the house in the evenings and weekends.
26. They talk about a movie they've seen but you have not.
27. They insist on answering the phone.
28. They call out a different name in sleep.
29. Smell of a different soap from the brand at home and/or you smell freshly showered at 1.00am.
30. They care about how breath smells. New mints, gum, etc. found around house.
31. Uses pre-paid calling card/pager/cell phone for the first time ever.
32. Loses a lot of weight and seems proud of new body.
33. Saddest list item is: change in die-hard pro-life feelings on abortion.
34. Gut feeling. The biggest indicator of an affair is just feeling that it is so.
35. Juvenile behavior and music interests!!!
36. Uses more kid slang than the kids!!!!!
37. Knows all the new pop singers and has CD's.
38. When they lose stuff they accuses you of gettting into their "stuff"....
39. Uses the ATM way too much!
40. All of a sudden, their attitude about people who cheat changes, e.g., "we shouldn't judge because we don't know their whole story."
41."It wasn't a dinner date - it was just a way of saying thank you for carpooling"
42."I never lied about being married - she never asked me, so I just didn't bring it up"
43. Grocery shopping and other excuses to get out "alone."
44.The one difference is that my Wife wants our kids to like the other person because in the back of her head she thinks she will be with him. Very sickening. !!!!!!!!!!!
45. Carries toothpaste, toothbrush, mouthwash at all times.
46. When other person is co-worker, can't wait to get to work each day .
47. Becomes great friends with people going through divorce.
48. Defends other who are/have/will cheat(ed/ing).
49. Distances themselves from those with strong (any) moral values.
50. Gets "coded" pager messages at all times of the day and night

[Ready2Change]

I'm going to say one thing and one thing only. Change YOU...not for your marriage...not for him...for YOU.

Change? ok big statement. How about just starting to be different. Act like you don't care what he's doing where he's going. If you are crying...STOP crying and START going out. Change your hair style...your clothes or if you can't financially then change it up...if you are a jeans girl start wearing dresses...just do something DIFFERENT.

No matter what...in the end you are working on yourself. If he wants to come along then he can but in the mean time you aren't going to let him take you down.

Get your self esteem back now!

[Ready2Change]

Don't feel bad about weeping. I'm lucky. My desk faces away from everyone so when I have my daily pity party, no one really notices, or at least pretends not to notice. There's nothing wrong with grieving. You've tried SOOOOOOO hard, and you have nothing to be ashamed about. This isn't about screwing up your life, this is about your wife leaving. Let her go. Pick up the pieces of your life, put them together, take care of your kids, and eventually this pain will fade to a dull throb. God be with you.

[Ready2Change]

Put together an thoughtful letter that goes something like:

I am sorry to tell you that our marriage is in trouble. _____ has been having an affair with a 23 year old man with a troubled history, and I have asked her to leave, not because I do not want to fight for my marriage, but because I want to protect myself and our children from this predator she is seeing and because her behavior is not something I want our children to be continually exposed to.

I appreciate your support in this matter.

Give them each copies of the letter. Then step back. She is going to get angry because you didn't help her carry out her Big Lie. She is going to run "damage control" and spin many more webs of deceit. Do not engage her. If you say anything, ask her if she has found an apartment yet or say you did not want to lie for her.

It's the right thing to do.

[Ready2Change]

She was pissed that i took such a rigid stance on this and actually moved into the spare room last night which I guess she thinks punishes me.

She counts my behavior in this matter as controlling and has said the same. Maybe but I think it is important to protect the kids from any blame here as it will be difficult enough on them.

See what you did there? You went by "What is THE RIGHT THING TO DO" instead of by what your wife might see as "controlling" or whatever.

You ABSOLUTELY continue to stand up and do what's right by those kids. It is UNCONSCIONABLE what she's doing here! And do NOT let her inform them by herself; make sure you are there too, and correct anything that needs correcting. If she does it anyway, then make sure you circle back with each of them, answer any of their questions honestly, and reassure them both.

[Ready2Change]

How can I get past this obvious lie? How can I ever trust the person I trusted the most again, if she continues to lie to me about something so fundamental?

You can't -- and you shouldn't. This is your HEALTH you're talking about here!

You should accept nothing short of 100% no-contact from her, full transparency, a full-panel STD test (with a copy of the results shown to YOU), and good MC/FT with a therapist trained in infidelity.

YOU need to decide what YOUR boundaries are, because the truth is, that -- over time -- we really do teach people how to treat us, and you've "taught" your wife that this is acceptable behavior. YOU need to begin to dramatically change the marital dynamic.

You may want to start with this:

Why are you cooking and cleaning, and buying beautiful things for a woman who is cheating on you??

[Ready2Change]

This IS a business transaction at this point, sadly, and you have to "always be in the superior knowledge position," as my brother likes to say.

As for this:

I talked to W briefly today about the vacation $ and mentioned that this is going to ruin both of us financially. She again said that this isn't about the $, so maybe she will be reasonable. Who knows.

YOU NEED TO CUT THIS KIND OF THINKING NOW, cuz this is what got you to this horrible place. YOUR WIFE, SADLY, IS YOUR ADVERSARY RIGHT NOW. There's a reason they put that little "v" between the names of the parties! These conversations have no place; you need to think of yourself as a JUDGE, and picture yourself saying to your wife "We really shouldn't be having this conversation right now, this is ex parte" (or whatever it is they call it.

You need to lawyer up and self-research up. As the Good Book says, "There is wisdom in many counselors." I'm not sure if the breakdown is your atty or you or some combination, but I'd strongly advise strengthening at least ONE (if not both) links in that two-link chain before going in next time for permanent decisions.

[Ready2Change]

I know exactly how I got her. I was very affectionate; emailed/texted cute nothings all the time; spent lots of time doing nothing with her (TV, movies- quality time LL)...

But the ATTITUDE behind this stuff is the "essence" and a core to which you need to return. YOU will be happier that you did, and at SOME point, I guarantee you that your wife WILL notice this stuff. It may be when OM dumps her ass, or it may be the day after your divorce is final. It may be three weeks from now or it may be two YEARS from now. But you DID attract her once, and there's a reason for that, and her brain will NOT always be closed to you chemically.

[Rich 123]

CityGirl

I think the term "hard approach" is not always what people think. Give her a divorce and get a fair settlement. All that means is the legal part of your marriage has been dissolved. If she is not BS'ing you then she will get C'ing without your prompting and will want to get to know you again. If she is full of crap then at least the business side of things will be settled and you can go from there.

[Rich 123]

I think the term "hard approach" is not always what people think. Give her a divorce and get a fair settlement. All that means is the legal part of your marriage has been dissolved. If she is not BS'ing you then she will get C'ing without your prompting and will want to get to know you again. If she is full of crap then at least the business side of things will be settled and you can go from there.

This made me see that this might work the best for me.

[Ready2Change]

That's always been my biggest concern with the LRT strategy in terms of spouses who have felt neglected. I know that often when I pull away, my W has felt like I'm cold and withdrawn.

Call bull$hit on that one. Cause that is EXACTLY what it is: I (WA) want out and you (LBS) won't beg me to stay. You won't allow me to manipulate you anymore, therefore, you must be cold. Don't fall for it.

If it was me I would be wary of using the LRT on the WAS who felt neglected. If they felt "invisible, "you don't understand/see me," or "unloved" then you need to be able to show love (lovingly detach), don't put up with CB (boundaries) and take care of yourself (GAL). How are you going to change their feelings of neglect? How would you make them feel "seen," understood, supported, cared for and loved? Which feelings are you trying to validate? I understand the detaching can appear cold. Activity creates warmth.

[Ready2Change]

H told me when he dropped the bomb that I just didn't want any part of phy R..I

You validate his feelings. Then you let him know that he doesn't know what you think/feel/believe (mind reading.)

"I can understand how you could see it that way. Please don't tell me what I am thinking about our M by saying I don't want a physical R. What I really think about our R is___________________."

For a so-called logical man he sure does use his feelings a lot?

The pain of staying outweighs the pain of leaving. Stop his feelings of pain. Create some emotional connection. Flirt with him, be mysterious, let him come to you.

[Ready2Change]

I'm just not very good at dodging those questions gracefully. I don't know how to respond to those without making her angry.

You begin by rejecting your own premise

Whether or not your response makes her angry has to become completely irrelevant to your way-of-thinking. Or at least, SECONDARY to the far-overriding factor of "Is this The Right Thing to Do in this situation?"

Until you LOSE THE FEAR that your responses will "make her angry," you will NEVER get anywhere.

[Ready2Change]

I've not thought about a no-contact letter. Can you elaborate? What would be the stipulations of such a letter?

Something like this:

Here is an example of a No Contact Letter:

Dear [put name here],
The relationship I had with you was thoughtless and cruel. It hurt many people, particularly my spouse, who did not deserve to be treated that way. I am committed to my marriage and determined to make up for all the hurt I’ve caused my family. I am going to work hard to be the best husband/wife that he/she deserves.

Because of the terrible offense to my spouse and the damage I have done to our marriage, I am permanently ending all contact with you. Please respect my wish to regain my integrity, and to heal my family. Please also respect my wish that you not attempt to contact me in any way at any time.My spouse has all the details of our relationship and he/she will also be told of any attempts at contact.

Sincerely,


[name here]


It should be clear and straightforward, with no romantic flourishes. YOU, as the betrayed spouse, need to approve the final copy, and YOU need to either deliver it or mail it to her OM, so that nothing is added, embellished, or taken away to "soften" it.

What type of transparency plan are you going to put in place? I would strongly suggest that it contain at least ONE intel channel that she does NOT know about, for obvious reasons.

[Ready2Change]

Click on Robx and then "View User's Posts," and you'll have a treasure trove of information on various scripts, etc. This is one that I just happened to save to my own personal archives; adapt for gender, etc.:


RobX’s approach:



Sit her down and have a discussion with her.
No need to be mad, angry, a$$hole, prick on anything,
keep it calm, light but straight forward, direct to the point, etc. Don't make it last more than a few minutes.

You tell her trust is based on actions that are consistent.

You don't trust her because she hasn't been consistent.

You don't trust her because she's been lying to you, in fact you tell her that is what you trust her to continue doing, because she has been lying to your consistently - that's what you can trust.

For you to be able to trust her, she has to build trust.
Sure you can trust her blindly and have faith and all that good stuff but honestly how well has that worked up to this point?

Don't ask for for full disclosure.

Do the opposite.

Tell her this:

"... I don't want your cell phone records, I don't want to look at your cell phone text msg's and call history, I don't want your email or fb password, I don't want your voicemail pw. If I have to monitor you 24/7 to force you to be consistent, that won't work for me because that's not what I want or need.

I wanted you to be trustworthy but I don't need you to be anything, truth be told, I'll be just fine without you, I see that now.

From now on I'm moving in this direction, if you want to come along, go ahead, I won't control you and tell you that can or can't come but I can't wait for you anymore and you already know that if you're with the OM, you aren't with me, I'm not settling for anything less than that.

If you really want to be with the OM, I really can't say or do anything to stop that and you should be with him if you're willing to lie so much to me, if you can't be true to me that means he's more important to you than I am and you know what... I'm ok with that because I'm more important to me and that's all that matters - I see that now.

If you wanted to be with me, you knew that you had alot of trust to rebuild and that's only through consistent action and I'm through with pressuring you to be my wife, I don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me and that's pretty much what it looks like to me so let's stop playing games: you go and be with the OM, I'm ok with that, in fact I'm better than OK, I'm awesome because I'm finally being honest with myself about all of this and that includes being honest about who you are and where you are right now. I know what I'm worth and I've been settling for less for too long.

I can't wait for you anymore, I've spent enough time waiting for you to do the right thing and I know that doesn't work because I would probably have to wait forever and still not get what I wanted. So you can do what you want, be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy and I'm going to start wanting something better for me."


No being mean, spiteful, vindictive, you let her go.
No more discussions, arguments, no more talks about lies, no more sneaking around behind your back, she can do what she wants but you are letting her go to do what she wants to do but at the same time, you are now allowing yourself to be free of this crappy limbo place you've been living in for so long.

Bro, if she wants to be with you, she'll be with you, no amount of a$$ kissing, sneaking, snooping, being mean, angry, standing tall, etc. is going to change that.

You be the best gosh darn example of a MAN for you and for you only. If she wants this great MAN that you are in her life, she'll pursue you and do what it takes to be a part of that.

You need to respect yourself first, that's the first step and letting go of your wife her untrustworthy ways to establish that your self-respect, dignity and integrity are the most important things in your life is what you NEED and WANT to do. You know what you're worth, go out and get what you're worth and let go of the things that are worthy of you - starting feeling your personal value, know it, resonate with it, live it. You are worth better than what she is giving you right now, if you don't set that boundary, you'll allow her to do this to you forever and who could respect that?

Otherwise continue playing this game and you'll be playing this chase & pursue game, pushing & pulling for the rest of your life.

Time to get off the merry go round, this ride isn't that fun anymore.

[Ready2Change]

SAHDs have a particular challenge when it comes to attraction, as it's very easy for your wife to see you as the female in the relationship. Fairly or unfairly, this topic of "gender confusion" has been discussed wildly on this forum, and of course written about, and the women will tell you this is true.

I understand the SAHD is a career decision you guys have probably made, but why is your wife doing the outside chores, while you are doing laundry and dishes and such?

If I were you, I would try to look for things that you can INITIATE (don't wait for her to ask her, nor chime in to help her when she initiates a chore), in the way of home improvement or yard projects.

[Ready2Change]

Detach = give her space, let her go, agree with her, take care of yourself, play with and love on your kids, prepare yourself to be divorced, prepare for a reconciliation, take care of your business, let go of your anger, show compassion when appropriate......

These are all ways to show love to a WAS while respecting yourself.

[Ready2Change]

So the trick for me is to give her non-threatening attention. Not to act as if I'm fine she's leaving, nor to push her out the door when she starts to be afraid.

[Ready2Change]

The trick if no 3rd party is involved is to teach yourself the 4 steps of listening.

1. Shut up and listen!! Don't interrupt.
2. Mirroring - Repeat back to them what they are saying. "So I hear you saying...."
3. Validate - "I can understand why you would feel like that..."
4. Empathy - "Now that you say it like that I would have felt the same way..."

[Ready2Change]

Every aspect of our personality that made us mates (attentiveness, affection, reading moods, caring about their happiness) are the things that we need to harness and withhold. Add to that that they know (or even unconsciously know) what buttons to push to manipulate emotions like anger, concern, pity etc. And it requires intense self awareness and control to avoid the misstep.

[Ready2Change]

...This is the point of the "ignore 100% of what they say and 50% of what they do" guideline... If you get too focused on their reaction then you will be allowing THEIR responses drive your actions... you don't want in that cycle its death in slow motion

BREAK the cycle by just doing what you should be doing with blinders on to him unless he breaks a boundary...

It's ok to watch him and such, but don't let it get to a point where it will impact your motivation or you are dead in the water...

Your choices are NOT dictated at ALL by his actions... Just do it...

Monitor for boundaries along the way, but as long as he's not veering from the boundaries then give him time to process...

[Ready2Change]

So whats the difference between DB and just walking out and saying screw it I'm done and I don't really give a cr#p anymore. Seems like they are the same thing to me.

That's a great question. In the latter, you say "This is who I am, I don't need you anymore." In the former (DBing), you convey "This is who I am, I've realized I don't NEED you anymore, but I still WANT you along with me on my journey," (but I'm not willing to violate my own Boundaries of Personal Integrity just for the privilege of having you along).

Needing a spouse is enmeshment, co-dependent, and NOT healthy. WANTING them is good, and the difference between your two examples.

You want her to be your frosting, not your cake. YOU are your cake, and you have to be okay with that.

[Ready2Change]

I read an interesting article called "financial infidelity" and it attempted to draw comparisons to sexual and romantic infidelity. They key point was commitment to financial disclosure (no secrets), risky choices are agreed on as a couple (large expenditures and visits to members of opposite sex), etc... There was a lot to draw on I was shocked :'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_infidelity

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/thi...ell-427923.html

[Ready2Change]

It could have been anything. I'm washing the counter wrong. I'm sweeping wrong. I'm watering the plants incorrectly. It doesn't matter

It does matter or you wouldn't be here would you?

Let's flip the scenario for the men. Your wife is going to wash and wax your newly restored candy apple red '65 Mustang convertible, V-8 289, 4 speed. She hoses the car off and as she's getting ready to sponge it off she drops the sponge in a a pile of gravel and sand and starts to wipe the car down. . After throughly "washing" the car she parks it in the sun and starts to apply the wax, she lets it get good and dry then decides to wipe it off a couple of hours later.

Do you see why to a woman bad help is worse than any help? It just creates more work for her. So if she has to refold the laundry, re-sweep the floor, rewash the counter did you really help her? Really sounds like AOS is her deal too, so it does matter. FWIW, I fold the towels in different way now. It didn't affect my manhood.

Cheers

[Ready2Change]

As far as sacrificing goes, I agree for the most part. I have done it with friends and I get that. With the wife, I am slowing learning that with the way she feels towards me, it may be best for me to sacrifice. I just do not see how it is in the best interest for our children. There are just too many negatives.

I don't understand this paragraph. Sacrifice? You're not a martyr. We repeatedly tell you to protect yourself and your children. Not once has anybody recommended that you martyr yourself.

Giving up on trying to control somebody else or taking back control of yourself does not involve sacrifice. You never had control of anybody else, and nobody else controlled you. We are asking you to understand that: self-control, controlling yourself is the one thing you CAN do.

You can't pick and choose the events that you must respond to in your life, but you can determine how you will respond to them. You can let your emotions drive your responses (prisons are full of people who do this all of the time), or you can let your principles determine your actions.

Your emotions--the anger, sadness, joy, frustration, discontentment, contentment, and so on--are perfectly OK. Go ahead and feel ALL of them, but your actions do not need to be driven by your emotions. It's OK to feel emotions and even to share what you are feeling (e.g. right now I am angry, and I'll get back to you when I have had time to think about this), but it's not OK to act on your emotions (e.g. I punched you in the face because you made me mad).

See? We are asking you to Think before you act, and then act according to your principles as if God himself were there with you watching what you do.

How is your GAL going?

You have a regular fitness routine and nutrition program?

You sleeping well?

What are you doing to take care of yourself?

On a flight, the attendants tell you to put on your oxygen mask first before you try to help anybody else, so... are you taking care of YOU?

[Ready2Change]

Just remember, there's nothing wrong with you saying to her -- in response to WHATEVER she brings up:

"I'm just not sure how I feel about that anymore."

or

"I'm afraid it's not that easy anymore."

or

"I don't know HOW I feel."

or

"I'm not sure WHAT I want to do. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me, and I'll certainly think hard about them."

etc.

[Ready2Change]

Your H does not have your or the family's best interests in mind right now. You have to take the lead on being prepared.

Have you seen a L to know where you stand?

Do you have access to money in your name only?

Do you have a support network?

Have you read up on exposure?

Do you really understand boundaries?

Are you taking care of yourself - physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually?

Don't ask a WAS to decide anything, you decide for yourself what is best and take the appropriate action. Goals - Plan- Action. Think don't react (emotion).

No matter what happens make your mind up to come out of this a wiser, stronger, healthier and better woman. Thrive don't survive. You can handle it.

[Ready2Change]

As far as "asking" her about MC, I think it would be better to just get dressed and act as if and plan to go. After you are dressed you can say something like, "I'm going to our appointment." Don't ask her if she's going....just leave. That shows her something. It shows her that you are not clinging to her skirt-tail and it doesn't put the same type of pressure on her as it was before.

When you constantly check her temp to see "where she's at in this"....that puts more resentment in her heart. I'm speaking from personal experience.

[Ready2Change]

My mind set going into this meeting is to listen, gather information, and to have a cup of coffee.

Then go home and process the info and make a good sound decision that will be the best for me AND my kids.

[Ready2Change]

I got told by H that "I don't understand him and don't care" when I tried to be upbeat and he was down.

Come on people that's mind-reading - when someone else tells you what you think, believe or feel.

"You don't understand>" - "I can see how from your perpsective it might seem that way. So help me. What is it you want me to understand?"

"You don't care." - "I understand you feel that way. I want you to know I do care. Why is it you feel like I don't care."


yes, the reason they feel like that is because they feel like they are not being listened to or seen. Why would someone mindread? become aware of why and how this occurs.

[Ready2Change]

The WAW will always refer to "the other problems in the M". She feels "that" is the basis of what's happening .....not her A.

So, do you know what problems she's referring to? I dare say it includes every year you've been M.

Let me throw this in free of charge. I talked to my H for years, trying to get him more involved in our R. I needed emotional intimacy but he didn't have a clue as to how to do that. By the time I was in an EA my feeling for him was in the trash can. But that was when he came to life....when he discovered OM. I think most WAW's involved in an EA, have a feeling of resentfulness toward their H for waiting until things got to the point of OM entering the picture before he begins to open his eyes & ears to what's going on in the MR. The WAW is thinking, "So this is what it took to wake you up"! The problem is that she may feel it's too little too late.

I'm not defending her but rather trying to enlighten you on what she may be feeling. She will deny OM/EA b/c that is easier. If you have solid proof then she will have an attitude of "So...what of it?" Then she'll try to reverse everything to make you out to be the bad guy. So, be prepared.

[Ready2Change]

In the first paragraph of your thread, it was clear to me that your W was past desperate for happiness. If you worked up to 16 hrs a day, that didn't leave much time for the two of you. Something tells me that she longed for romance but you were either too tired, too broke, or not interested. Then you waited too late, so she decided to see what it would take to shake you awake. But here's the thing....she wanted to see a knight in shinning armor come charging in and knock the OM on his butt, then sweep her up into his arms and go off into the sunset. You didn't do what she wanted. You didn't do anything like she wanted, even when OM was staying all night in your home with your W. She kept pushing OM at you b/c she wanted you to beat the snot out of him! She wanted to know you were jealous of her! She wanted a hero!

You were trying to make her see what a nice guy you are and how dedicated you are to making the M work....regardless of what she did....even with another man. But you see, that does not come off as being a nice guy, it comes off as you being worse than an old wore out doormat that just keeps laying there allowing people to wipe their sh*t on him. That ain't exactly sexy and it sure won't draw her to you.

You aren't being nice. You are being passive. If there is one thing that will turn a woman off...it is a passive man. In every paragraph you wrote, you told us how passive you really are and how you are allowing her to bully you. What do you mean she won't let you have access to the account to pay for dental care? Have some gumption, boy!

[Ready2Change]

Now, get to a doctor and tell him that you are going days without sleep and having suicidal thoughts. He will give you meds that will help a lot....and if they don't help a lot, go back and tell him it didn't work and to give you something different. You have to get his attention and let him know how serious this is, okay? Then we'll get busy and get you to working toward a better life!

[Ready2Change]

More importantly you have to complete the mission regardless of the conditions. I can control my actions, knowledge, and skill and not let the fog deter me.

What lines do you want to know?

What skills and knowledge do you need to successfully navigate and fly thru all conditions?

When you think thru this it becomes apparent on what you need to do. Don't make this harder than it needs to be. Your feeling are yours, fear will paralyze you. Think thru the fear (False Evidence Appearing Real) and dispute your beliefs about why be afraid.

R2C, sticky that sucka!!

Puppy, you (and anyone else) are free to sticky all words of wisdom in this thread too....

[Puppy Dog Tails]

I don't want to screw it up, LOL!

btw, thanks for doing this, in case no one's said so.

[Ready2Change]

I'm confused about how to balance all the different advice.

Just be gone.

Stop talking to your wife, you seem to go backwards every time you do.

So I have spent more time away from the house and not talking to her. Now I will be moving. now I am reading to pay attention, listen and tune in.

How do I balance all this?

Sometimes I feel like I have dropped the rope, but lots of times I don't either. I know I don't validate like I should, somehow I always end-up defending myself instead because I am being attacked.

I've tried to follow links of guys that are slightly ahead of me in the process, but things are never exactly the same and we sometimes leap-frog each other.

I just don't know anymore. All I get from her is cold. We did get into it a bit after our court date last week Tuesday. We talked for quite a while in the middle of the afternoon when my brother was at my house. It wasn't very productive. We never seem to have time alone anymore because the kids stay up so late now that we go to bed just about the same time they do.

I wish there was some easy way for me to know what to do, because I just can't seem to figure it out. And continuing to talk about it seems to make it harder for me to drop the rope completely.

I think it will be much easier once I am out of the house. I won't be talking to her unless it is about transferring the kids or if she bring something up. My understanding is that that is the right way to proceed?

My sitch isn't resolved, so obviously I'm no expert, but I am learning. I was very confused at the beginning too, and I made some mistakes. I was pretty good about not pursuing, and GALing, but my biggest mistake was not setting and enforcing strong boundaries. I think if I was able to do that from the beginning, I would have shaved a year off my sitch.

The key is to try your best to turn the tables in your mind. Take ALL pressure off her. Let her feel your loss, let her wonder what's going on in YOUR head. Deal with what needs to be dealt with, with grace and dignity and strength. If she crosses a boundary, decisively let her know. If she comes to you to talk, THAT's when to pay attention and tune in. Listen, validate, let her feel that you care about her. If she tries to unfairly blame you, call her on that crap. Be strong, use humor, show her a confident man, then be gone again. If she hits you with things you're not expecting, just say "Hmmm... I need to think about that, I'll get back to you."

Try to imagine that YOU'RE the one who's not that interested, make HER work to get YOUR attention, but when you decide to give it to her, be there 100%. Make every interaction with her positive, even consider enforcement of a boundary a POSITIVE thing. Just because she throws a little fit doesn't mean it wasn't positive. She will respect you for it.

When you're so emotionally wrapped up it's virtually impossible to get into the right mindset. Trust me, I know! That's why detachment is so important. Create a vision of your future without her in it, and MAKE IT a GOOD THING. That was the secret to detachment for me. Although we all hate the idea of our M ending, there are some good things about not being M. Marriage means certain restrictions and obligations, in exchange for certain comforts and security. It's a trade off.

[Ready2Change]

What is the key to validate without adding things from myself?

I understand...

I can see....

I hear you saying ......

What would make you feel_______________?

How can I help you?

Read "Learned Optimism" by Martin Seligman. Google his name and do some reading on explanatory styles.

You really don't know what your H thinks, feels or believes. Would you be here if you did? When in doubt ask him.

[Ready2Change]

She snapped "I'll probably be asleep when you get home,"

She didn't ask a question so it doesn't require a response. She's testing him by being snappy. The test requires a response. "Sounds to me like you could use some sleep." Said with a cheerful voice, spin around with your gym bag and head out the door. You acknowledge her, let her know her CB doesn't bother you and you are a busy man. That show's confidence and a little humor. You don't let her behavior bring you down or affect you. But you don't reward it.

[Ready2Change]

...Discussing the logistics of separation....Everything in my gut tells me I should initiate a R conversation... what I have learned from DB and the forum says act cool and just proceed like it does not overly affect me....She knows I don't want this...I know there is probably no point in re stating this...Is there a proper way to just come out one last time and say. "I am going ahead with this even though I believe it to be completely unnecessary and something we will both regret" or do I just act like I am completely ok with the separation and just focus on what i need to do.

You've answered all of your own questions here. She will SEE what you are doing (ACTIONS, not WORDS, remember?) and she's free to stop you if and whenever she wishes.

If you make a speech or some grand pronouncement about it, then EVERYTHING you've listed above will just appear to be some sort of "tactic" by you to get her back, and you will have wasted all of your positive moves.

As Coach says, "Lead." She already knows how you feel.

[Ready2Change]

Living in Limbo - Defined as: a state of uncertainty or aof being kept waiting...As long as you sit around hoping today is the day your spouse will pull their head out of their butt, you will continue to live like this...Make your boundaries known as fast as possible, lay them out and be prepared to follow through with them...Stop being a pansy, this is your life as well and if you are ok with sitting here 10 years from now still hoping today is the day, stop your griping.

Letting Go - There are things that we never want to let go of, people we never want to leave behind. But keep in mind that letting go isn’t the end of the world, it’s the beginning of a new life. Just like limbo, as long as you continue to cling on to something that just isn't there, you will never be able to move forward. I have seen this prevalent here in Newcomers however it is worse in the MLC forum.

Being a Doormat - Defined as: One who submits meekly to domination or mistreatment by others. Most doormat people have low self-esteem, no backbone, and are "yes" people (meaning they try to please everyone by doing what is asked of them, or told to them). I would say most doormat people are afraid of rejection and of being ridiculed by others. They do their best to avoid confrontation and back down very easily if pushed.
Being respectful, setting and keeping boundaries doesn't make you a doormat, bending over backwards to please everyone makes you a doormat... Ladies, time to find your backbone, men, time to find your testicles.

Mind-Reading - Defined as: Assuming special knowledge of the intentions or thoughts of others. When we have an interaction with someone else, we are constantly observing their behavior and listening to their responses (or noting the absence). We then add our own interpretation of what it all means. We use our own representation system and our own value system to reconstruct how the other got to chose that particular response. We use our experiences, our world view, our values, our beliefs to reconstruct what the other thinks. When this happens, take some time to ask yourself: How do I know this? How do I know that he thinks I’m stupid, lazy, man enough or whatever. Did they say so? Most likely they haven't said any of these things. Simply asking yourself this simple question is a major step in preventing continued mind reading.

For the newbies reading this...You need to keep in mind that not all marriages will survive this, no matter how much work you put into it, no matter how many changes you make (and I am hoping you are making them for yourself and not for anyone else), no matter how much weight you lose, what color you change your hair, how many laps you can now run etc...

There are zero guarantees any of these things will save your marriage.

I came here with the intention of "saving" my marriage over a year ago...

Guess what? I didn't, and I am ok with that...

I am a better person because of what I have learned, I am no longer a doormat, I can hold my own with anyone I come in contact with, I am not a piece of garbage (like I thought I was) to be tossed out just because my spouse got a crazy itch between his legs, I am worthy of so much more.

We all are and when you finally start to believe that, you will then see the changes within you that will help you to not only survive, but thrive.

(((Hugs)))

[Ready2Change]

You are setting precedent now, don't let your spouse set the precedent.

[Ready2Change]

There is OM in the picture whom W says she will absolutely give up IF I can commit to trying on the marriage again.

Your answer to her is..

"I have decided that I am not interested in reconciling. I have realized that it is not in the best interest of "us" as a couple and an even MORE important FACT is that I have lost trust. I will always love you because you are the mother of our child, but I am not IN love with you.(that one always gets to them) I realized that it just won't work for ME because I don't want to be with a woman I don't trust and am not in love with. Also add to the fact that you are STILL with him even now and are making it seem as if you are doing ME a favor by telling me you will leave him IF I commit to the relationship. I have decided that isn't going to happen. So, for now I want to proceed with the divorce."

Say this with confidence, resolve and matter of fact....

Don't BUDGE an inch if she doesn't dump him BEFORE you commit. Shame on you if you fall for that old trick.

[Ready2Change]

I would only respond as "busy now get back with you later" then never do so.

I actually disagree with this one. I think it's imperative, in all things, to DO WHAT YOU SAY YOU ARE GOING TO DO. If you're not sure you're going to call her back later, then say so: "I'll try to give you a call back tonight, but I've got a busy evening planned -- no promises. If not, we'll definitely catch up tomorrow" -- or some such.

You want to be the one person acting with total character and integrity right now.

(Actually, that's not a bad way to live always).

[Ready2Change]

Yup..you can FORECAST almost EVERY MOVE THEY MAKE after you read enough posts here...

[Ready2Change]

To all those still struggling with a wayward spouse, 8 things I've learned....

1) It's not about you or anything you've done. Way-wards will justify and rationalize EVERYTHING to make what they're doing someone elses fault. Own your own chit that contributed to the marriage breakdown, because we all have chit we can work on, but NEVER take responsibility for your spouses A. That's all on them.
2) Never take ANYTHING your wayward spouse says to or about you personally. They really are in an F'd up place.
3) The A MUST end before your marriage has a chance, and rarely does the little bo peep method work.
4) Once the A ends, more compassion and patience than you ever knew were possible will be required to save your marriage.
5) Once the A ends and waywards begin to come out of the fog, they have their own he** to deal with.
6) Do NOT hold it over their heads forever. It only leads to road bumps in your marriage recovery.
7) Your marriage can be saved. Some can not, but some can. And NO ONE will blame you if YOU decide to call it quits if your spouse has cheated on you. Some people can't get over it even with a repentant spouse.
8) If you're one of the lucky ones to save your marriage, don't ever take your spouse for granted. A second chance is a gift. Mine was within days of a divorce being filed, and here we are today talking about retirement and our future grand-kids and ML multiple times a week.

[Ready2Change]

It's like when my teenaged and college-aged daughters would object to my "control" in their lives. I would point out to them that "You say you want to be independent, but as long as I'm paying for half your college expenses (or living in my house, etc.), then I'm sorry, you're NOT 'independent'."

[Ready2Change]

OK, very rough draft


Clearly it's not possible to engage in discussing this in a civilized manner in person.

I am taking the time to write this out in the hopes it will clarify things for you both.

When our marriage became troubled I took the time to explore marriage therapy, do research, and invite you Mrs. QS to do the same.

You Mrs QS chose to refuse.

I gave you an opportunity to explore counseling and you took that offer and threw it away.

When you filed for divorce I gave you the opportunity to live here respectfully with each other until our divorce was final.

I gave you an opportunity to live here and you took that offer and chose to commit adultery with online sex chats and phone sex with a married man in secret.

I gave and you took.

Our marriage had problems like any other. I took ownership of my 50% like a mature adult. I am willing to own my half of the problems with our marriage and accept that and a divorce.

What I cannot accept in good conscience is my being accused of not being generous or cooperative.

Each step outlined above is your choice made to drive conflict to its peak and make an otherwise civil divorce ugly. I will not have an ugly divorce.

You turned down counseling, you filed for divorce, you committed adultery with a married man, and when I stood up for myself against these insults you chose to move out.

You made your bed my dear and I am afraid you will have to lie in it.

I gave many chances - many chances - and you took those chances and offered abuse in return.

I will not be disrespected or abused any further.

I will live in the home I have lived in and I will not be forced to move elsewhere by bullying or lies any further.

I gave, and you took. I am giving no more.

I will live in my home. I will live the lifestyle I choose to live.

I gave an offer of counseling, I gave an offer of monogamous commitment until the divorce was final, I gave and you took and I will give no more.

I will not have an ugly divorce. If you want that then go have it elsewhere.

My commitments to you, you forfeited. I gave and you took.

I am living in my home and I will live there the way I chose to.

The home will be clean, maintained, and even improved for the chance of sale in the future. Until such time I will live there and I will live the life I chose to - a healthy honest life. A life free of your lies, free of your cheating, and free of your temper.

Should you chose to visit you will visit between the hours of 10 am and 8 pm and you will make a 24 hour notice beforehand.

When you visit you will be polite, you will be honest, and you will control your temper or you will be asked to leave.

You are more than welcome to view the home to ensure it is maintained, but I will not allow you to dictate my lifestyle to me... Mine has been thus far much healthier, constructive, and honest than yours.

[Ready2Change]

My letter goes something like this - version 2.0


I recently discovered my Husband, your brother, uncle, friend and colleague has been engaged in infidelity with a woman at work for over a year. I am devastated. He was so hurtful that he spent our wedding anniversary with this woman while I sat home alone feeling worthless and alone.

This woman is his subordinate in their workplace - Amy. My husband lied to me that he was unhappy with me and walked out of our home earlier this year. At first I thought his leaving was the marriage failing. Amy is violating my marriage and home.

I ask for your support simply by removing yourselves from his life and his affair. I apologize that my husband is lying to you. Until you have the truth you are supporting Amy and the affair instead of marriage and commitment. You are entitled to make an informed choice.

Despite this woman's egregious attack on my marriage, and my husband's horrible abuse I am willing to accept that our marriage is like any other and less than perfect. Even after I found out about the affair I invited my husband to explore counseling. My husband attended three sessions. He lied to both me and even the counselor about his affair. He was still having an affair with Amy in secret during each of those counseling sessions.

I was and I still am attempting to own and repair our marriage. I made an honest commitment and I only ask that he cooperate with me in repairing this marriage. Despite our going to counseling Amy has decided to continue to attack our marriage making it near impossible to recover. Our counselor advised me that until Amy leaves my husband alone and allows him to repair his marriage that our marriage is at a stalemate.

I am devastated and frustrated beyond description.

She is a a friend of him on Facebook, now that I have given you her name, each of you will know who she is. The commitment, as you all know, he has for military service makes this affair even more damaging to his future/career/ and retirement from the military. I am hoping you may be willing to talk some sense into him before he ruins both his career and all the years we have invested in this marriage.

I have been a good wife, friend, and sister to each of you. I have not cheated or been untrue in any way towards my Husband. It is truly unfair and unbecoming a soldier/sailor for him to treat me, our marriage, and our lives in such a reckless and careless manner.

I am seeking your support.


I want to tighten this a bit more... I think its too long... It's mostly the same as yours only a few changes.

I think it should be about half this long really.. But as is its pretty good. I may poke at it again to see if I can make it more concise... You want people to read it. They may be more interested in reading it if its shorter.

[Ready2Change]

Learn this lesson: You are not required to give an answer to every question. My H was the author of that lesson! All he had to do was just look at me...without saying a word. Sometime he would raise one eyebrow, sometimes he would just grin, or he may have an angry look or a look I couldn't read...but say nothing. He refused to answer. How do you fight with something like that? Yes, I would get angry, but I did not "win" at being angry and I sure didn't control him. He showed me that he was in control by saying nothing. See what I mean?

Then realize something else. She has, and will continue, to turn the tables around in this R to make you feel that you have to prove that you can be trusted. Hey....it wasn't you that had the A! Women are good at doing that little game, too. She is the one that needs to prove she can be trusted. You fell into that trap. She is making it sound like a two-way street....and ordinarily it would be, but the first thing you know...she's making it appear that YOU were the bad guy....not her. She has you on your knees trying to make up with her. Trying to make her happy, apologizing, etc. It's kind of strange that she was unfaithful but she wants to get you into all this open R, trust, transparency, etc. Don't misunderstand what I'm trying to say. It's just that she'll get the spotlight off her and put it onto you.

Be your own man. Do what you want to do and don't feel that you must ask her permission. I'm not telling you to be disrespectful in any way but I'm trying to get you out of this mind-set you're in.

Hopefully, you will have many years of M with this young woman. However, you need to break some of these patterns that she's setting. Why does she fight with you after a trip? Why is there a big blow-up every six months? Stop the pattern.

[Ready2Change]

If you take time to notice people it's win-win. It takes confidence to do this and it's attractive.

[Ready2Change]

Here's what worked for me- exposing the affair publicly- to his family, his workplace, his friends, her family and friends, etc- I used Facebook and in person contact. Yes, he was very angry at first. Then I stopped contacting him completely, and let him stew in his own mess at the OW's house. He lasted about a week there. It probably helped that she has bratty children and that she quit her job, so he was around them all 24/7. I also got a life. I hired a babysitter and started going out.

Last week, I went to our local pub all by myself and made lots of friends. I would not recommend what I did to anyone else, necessarily, but I'd been drinking: I met one of Mr. RT's underlings at work, and made out with him. I brought him home with me. When we arrived at my house, Mr. RT was lurking about outside- he saw who I'd come home with and flipped out. It was a massive shock to him, and he got a taste of what I'd been going through. Within a day or two, he was begging to come home- he was miserable at OW's house, and realized that he didn't want me to be with anyone else.

We called the OW and I listened to him end it with her. She was upset, and she and I had 'words' on through Facebook. Nasty, nasty words- using things he'd told me about her, I ripped her to shreds- I insulted her kids, her parenting, her housekeeping, her morals- everything. In any case, I'm quite sure that Mr. RT and OW are finished for good.

Mr. RT and I have had an amazing week. He called my parents and apologized, apologized to his bosses, talked to the padre about getting help for his problems, quit his side job at the pub, and has generally been full of remorse and out of the 'fog'. We are going out together this evening, and there's a good chance that OW will be there, so we'll see how that goes- could be interesting.

In conclusion, I would have to say that DB-ing, when done quickly and correctly, is very effective. I'm not sure what the future holds, but for now, it's looking pretty good.

[Ready2Change]

Congrats, RT! Yeah, the exposure thing does work, but in hindsight, I wish I would have exposed to a slightly smaller circle of people (I would have omitted MY family, and some not-very-close friends), but other than that, I have NO REGRETS. I fought for my marriage, IT WORKED, and my wife even THANKED ME for fighting for her!

Please continue to post, and follow Allen's advice about FT (preferably with a MC/FT with specific training in dealing with infidelity) and transparency. It's IMPERATIVE, as -- without it -- the recidivism rate for affairs is VERY high. But WITH it, you guys have a great shot at building your marriage even better than ever!!

[Ready2Change]

...Guys (and girls) please fill us in - what attracts a man? If we can put all women in one basket as wanting a strong, confident man, surely there are some traits that men look for. Help us gals out.

This is always an interesting topic. If you are asking about attracting a new man into your life, first impressions are huge.

1) Start off by living a healthy lifestyle. Make healthy choices when eating. Drink plenty of water. Get good sleep. Exercise regularly. Take care of your body. Alcohol in moderation. Set a goal to reach, and then maintain, your ideal weight.

2) Make good grooming and hygiene a ritual. Accentuate the differences between the sexes.

3) Dress with style - fit, compliment, cohesive, unique, personal touch

4) Attitude (state of mind) – Happy (smile), Cool (Open and relaxed body language), Calm (slow), Confident (eye contact), humorous, seductive (ozz sex), Depth (mysterious, surprise ), Sincere , Interesting, Engaging

5) Awareness/Flirting ( 93% of communication is non verbal (body language) – study and enjoy what you find attractive and your body will naturally follow your thoughts. It is the ladies job to catch and hold a mans eye, several times if needed. This signals it is OK for him to approach. It is the mans job to approach the woman.

6) Social proof - Enjoy interacting with everyone, especially attractive members of the opposite sex. Maintain your personal boundaries with everyone.

PS: This is my list of how to attract a female. I find the same things attractive in a female. It will most likely make you more attractive to the WAS also....

[Ready2Change]

I told him I wasn't leaving. He wants to know who told me and why? Do I tell him? One small problem is we never signed the lease (long story) so I could get kicked out anyway.

He wants to know who told you NOT to move?

You told yourself. You simply say, "No one told me. This is my home. I've decided that even if we're going through a rough time right now, I am not leaving MY home because I am NOT the one who wants to leave this M."

And he may ask more questions. Your response is, "I've decided that I'm not going to leave my home."

He may ask again, "Who told you to do this?"

Your response, "No one. I'VE DECIDED that I'm not going to leave my home."

[Ready2Change]

It takes TWO to escalate. If you are serious when you say "This conversation is over until you're ready to calm down and discuss it calmly, like adults" or whatever, then how does it escalate?

[Ready2Change]

What helped me was challenging some of my dysfunctional beliefs (things I was taught, learned or a coping mechanism I had but wasn't working) and trying something new for myself. Woman and men don't think, act, talk or walk the same - understand the differences. Learn what women find attractive and what they need from their man. What I learned was it wasn't what I thought. We are both happy now.

[Ready2Change]

If she has anything constructive to share, I'll listen, but won't spend much time listening to her complain about the failures of last night.

A woman needs a man that can listen to her. That creates emotional connection when you can withstand her feelings. She can sense that you think you failed - not attractive - so I would bet she will test you on last night again. Validate her but don't let her tell you what you think, feel or believe. That why you call her out on the "thoughtless" comment, she's mind reading because she wants to know what you are thinking.

It's OK for her to feel anything she wants. You aren't responsible for her feelings.

Don't let last night be a big deal. It wasn't a failure. It was just unhealthy dialogue that can be improved.

[Ready2Change]

Types of Convos

Here's the thing: if someone is in an ongoing, unrepentant affair, there are only a few types of conversations/communications they can have with their betrayed spouse, and ALL of them are cheeseless tunnels for the BS:

1) NEGATIVE ones. Blame-making, re-writing marital history, angry outbursts, fight-picking, etc. 'nuff said.

2) Seemingly POSITIVE ones. So long as they are still in contact with OM/OW and lying to their spouse about it, these are all "bullchit spin" at best, and outright GASLIGHTING and LIES at worse. And the problem is, the betrayed spouse inevitably sees this as "baby steps!" and true marital progress, when they are no such thing. They can lead to horrible strategic and tactical mistakes, esp. if the BS doesn't have a good intel system in place. Reading my old journal yesterday, I was BLOWN AWAY at how stable I was able to be in the face of my wife's deceit, simply because I HAD INTEL TO SHOW ME OTHERWISE. This can't be overemphasized.

3) LEGAL/FINANCIAL ones. These are best handled by your attorney, for the obvious reasons. If you start negotiating yourself, when you are way, way, WAY too emotionally entrenched in the situation (and also often running on too-little sleep and WAY too-little emotional needs of your own being met), YOU WILL MAKE FOOLISH MISTAKES and UNWISE CONCESSIONS.

4) FAMILY/LOGISTICAL ones. These are fine, but best handled via e-mail or text message. A cheating spouse will use these as a ploy to lure you into R convos and worse; SEE #1 ABOVE.

5) SMALL-TALK. This is fine, but only in RESPONSE -- don't initiate it if your strategy is to go "dim" and if it's to go "dark" you shouldn't even respond. If it's "dim," then only respond to one of every several communications, and usually delayed, because you're BUSY and GETTING A LIFE, remember?

[Ready2Change]

You want to put a lot of exposure pressure on this woman too... Make sure everyone at work knows this woman is attacking your marriage and you have invited her to back off but she refused.

Her "I don't know what to say" is a passive aggressive "no"... Assume she has refused and act as if she rejected your offer.

The OW needs the fight taken to her doorstep.. Expose to her parents if you have to.

[Ready2Change]

Make the affair is unpleasant an experience as you can.. if you out him to family and all of his friends and make it a known fact that you have forgiven him and invite him to work on the marriage he will get a nasty reputation and the only way to save it is to end the affair and come home... otherwise he's the town creep

AND it makes OW look like a sleazy home-wrecker

Infidelity is fun and exciting in secret

Once you out them it becomes a stressful public scandal

[Ready2Change]

A much better way to set this up is thru a keylogger, that she has on her computer and she KNOWS is on her computer, as part of her transparency agreement. You don't want to put yourself in the role of "daily traffic cop," because it doesn't build ATTRACTION. It makes you the dad/cop/authority figure, and last time I checked, chicks didn't fantasize about their dads.

It's the same with online accounts. You don't want to set it up where the formerly-wayward spouse says "Here, you can sit with me and we can look at my Facebook and Yahoo account anytime you want to." Cuz then you have to ASK, you're right back in that role of traffic cop, and lather-rinse-repeat. Instead, you want them to just give you all their usernames and passwords, so YOU can check them, anytime you want to, without even having to tell them or ask them.

[Ready2Change]

You seem to still be walking on eggshells around you wife and she senses it. You can't decide on what to do because it appears you don't want to upset her and yet she gets upset anyway.

Start leading let her know what the plan is. "I am going to pickup Chinese on the way home for dinner. What would you like? Then I am heading to the grocery, is there anything you need? I can imagine you don't feel well after your dentist visit today. How can I help you?" Now if she needs or wants something it's up to her to bring it up. You were thoughtful of her and a man with a plan.

[Ready2Change]

Serving papers before him accomplishes WHAT?

Makes you feel better and also validates his leaving...

Let him SQUIRM... Honestly, exposing his affair and inviting him to work on the marriage is a powerful hit on him... It will terrorize him for months...

Serving him with D papers right now accomplishes nothing.

And yes he is a coward.. all cheating people, particularly the OP who hides in shadows and attacks your home covertly are cowardly beyond belief. I particularly criticize the OP... they are homewreckers... They are no better than an arsonist setting fire to your home while you sleep... They belong in jail.

File? Now?

That won't help you at all. SO why do it?

Just go live a healthy life for yourself.. that's the best medicine for you right now.

[Ready2Change]

Much of the discomfort you are feeling right now HE is feeling as well..

Exposure puts HIM in the same spot as you... public, awkward, embarrassing, stressful, frustrating...

When you kept his activities secret HE got to carry on and not have to deal with any pressure.. it was all on YOUR shoulders...

NOW its on both of you... HIM moreso since he's the one who looks like an a$$ to everyone he has to interact with... And he very likely HATES it...

Keep the pressure on through third parties while YOU keep your distance from him and work on getting healthy and making yourself and your home more inviting a place to return to...

The pressure to END the affair is TEN TIMES as important right now as you working on improving the home... Keep the exposure going... follow up... Make sure any LIES your H has spread are dealt with immediately... He WILL lie to anyone you exposed to.

He will :

a. Deny the affair
b. Tell people you are crazy
c. Tell people YOU are cheating
d. Tell people you are on medication and aren't taking it regularly

he will spin a long song and dance about how horrible a wife YOU are and that's why "HE" chose to move out...

Follow up with anyone he spins stories to and set them straight...

[Ready2Change]

You want to do MORE than just end it, you want to make the exciting private affair into a public scandal he wants to get AWAY from... you get the idea...

You exposing it did a lot of damage there... It's not fun now, its just embarrassment.. The more uncomfortable the affair looks to him the more likely his return.

[Ready2Change]

Yup, he's feeling the pressure... Do NOT REPLY to him...

You asked him NOT to contact you and less than 24 hours later he's doing it... Textbook

The more he contacts you and the more he chatters the more uncomfortable he is. This is GOOD.

Even if friends and family SHUT HIM OUT that's fine... IF they are willing to just say "I am not comfortable talking with you right now... go sort your marriage out" that's great...

Him gettin shut out socially and humiliated is pretty heavy... And it doesn't take a lot of work from friends and family to just tell him "No, I am not comfortable speaking with you while you are having an affair... goodbye"

That's all they have to do.. It woudl be great if they did more, but as long as they aren't letting him IN and SYMPATHIZING with him then you are good to go...

Once he realizes he's burning all his bridges, his workplace is after him, his money is going up in smoke, and you have a lawyer after him he will fold and offer you a deal...

Always reject the first offer.

Anything he offers you, ignore it until he offers it to the third party.

If he keeps harassing you over phone and email have your third party give him a written warning.

[Ready2Change]

What women find attractive

[Ready2Change]

She "felt" invisible, talking wouldn't matter, you won't change, you'll just try to fix her....you don't see things from her perspective. She already detached, she was tired of trying, she lost her attraction, she needed to walk because she felt unloved. The pain of staying was greater than the pain of leaving.

You need to get ahead of her on the detachment curve. Face your brutal reality. If you don't change she just validates how much pain you cause her when she sees you. Make yourself attractive to her, quit thinking about her, be your own man.

[Ready2Change]

I am still very stuck regarding how to integrate our possible reconciliation with the single life I built for myself. This isn't a case where the wayward spouse returns to the marriage before the betrayed spouse moves on. I did move on. I built a life for myself, and I like it. Now I feel like I'm living two lives.

Good, then you can be patient and wait for true remorse, the kind that passes an acid test.

Wisdom. ^

Slow and eaaaasssy, Future. Her words are CHEAP at this point. Only her ACTIONS -- OVER TIME -- are what you should weigh.

[Ready2Change]

hm,

Do you all still struggle with what I'm struggling with this evening--that sense of being discarded

Yes.

...and unworthy?

No. You are (I am) worthy. You are enough. And you matter. You were wronged; you are not wrong.

I can't say I miss xH, really; I'm not even sure if I miss being married, because it wasn't at all what I expected or wanted it to be in spite of trying really, really hard to make it so

Good. You're healing.

I suppose I miss my dreams, then, of what I thought marriage and family would be...

Now you're getting at/to that which you really, understandably mourn and grieve.

...and I feel like a failure

Stop. That. Now.

...finding myself as isolated at 54 as I was at 24. There's something about being told all the things we were told in the end that tends to make one feel fundamentally flawed...

And all of which was guilt-shifting, guilt-assuaging bullsh!t!!

but I'm so ready not to see myself as someone who got dumped and is still struggling to get some kind of life back. Do you ever feel that way? when do we get to feel whole again?

You didn't "get dumped." I didn't "get dumped." We were left by people who lost their way or who were never who they presented themselves to be. I get to feel whole again when I decide to feel whole again. I am enough. I matter. I was wronged and had sacred vows disregarded and spit in my face. And it was not about me. And it was not about you. It was - and is - and will remain - about them!.

Screw dating until you are ready - AND DON"T NEED IT .
Be You! Hoosiermama. Alone. Whole. Enough.
Pity parties are okay. As long as they are few, far between and short. I'm doing so much better, but I must admit that after almost two years, it still takes up a majority of my daily thinking. You and I will be further along when we are further along. Who puts a time-limit on healing?
Heal. In your time. As an unflawed, unlacking, eventually-fine-to-be-alone, whole person..
Just you. Alone. Fine.
It all (re)starts from there.
Time.
Your time, hm.
However much time you need.
Just don't wallow. Ditch the negative BS. Again: You were maliciously, selfishly wronged. You are not wrong. You are not the one who's malicious. You are not the one who is selfish.
Move forward.
Baby steps.
And celebrate each and every one of them.
You are inherently good and decent and lovable.
Period.

And yes, that is the highly-coveted "Puppy's 4 Whistles Award," which gets handed out, like, NEVER.

Puppy

[Ready2Change]

so you got hit hard. you dropped to the ground. what do you do now?
you have two choices: you either lay on the ground and say oh poor me. or you get up and dust yourself off as quickly as you can and keep going.

hint: the longer you stay lying on the ground, the more unattractive you look and ruins all the work you did on your appearance.

[Ready2Change]

to W: "While I understand and share your concerns, I have decided that time will not build a stronger partnership for us - only committing to make the necessary changes will do that. You are clearly unwilling to do that so I have decided to move forward with making a life apart from you."

You could tell her in person, but don't linger. You have to be somewhere so you can't stay. Say it and go. Don't take calls, don't answer texts unless there is a question about kids or money. Do you have L? If not, get one. Start driving this bus.

She doesn't think you will. She may be thinking that she has more Time. Absent a deadline, she may never know what she wants. Give her today as the drop dead date. Best case scenario - she moves in your direction. Worst case - well, what could be worse than where you are now?

[Ready2Change]

She doesn't respect or trust you because you are emotionally weak. She really needs this from you and you aren't providing it to her.

She's a addict, liar, adulteress and behaving badly and she sees you fall in a heap when she really needs you. I strong man would tell her these things are unacceptable in his life and that his woman won't act this way. A woman can do amazing things to be with a man she is attracted to. If you really love this woman then start by loving and respecting yourself. She is watching you.

[Ready2Change]

The way I look at it, you really don't know WHAT she will do when you tell her you've had enough of having a sword hanging over her head. You have not delivered that speech or followed through on it before or yet so you don't know what she will do. But you have to mean it when you say it, b/c she'll test it and doubt it and swat at your resolve b/c she's seen you waiver before. Not this time. This time is different and she needs to FEEL THE IMPACT of how different this moment in time is.

[Ready2Change]

What happened when you took that stand?

She squirmed and b*tched and moaned and screamed bloody murder at first, that I refused to sit down and talk to her. Eventually, over the course of a few weeks, as she saw that I was NOT going to be either bullied nor sweet-talked (and she tried both approaches) into sitting down and having an R talk with her, she eventually stopped trying.

I confronted my wife within 24 hours of having proof she was having an affair.

I exposed her affair within 24 hours to our adult daughters, and within two weeks to her family and her employer.

I re-confronted her on Day 60, and laid out a "No More Deceit" boundary, telling her "either you tell our daughters and your parents the truth about your relationship with (OM), or I will." I had evidence, and I told her she had five minutes to decide. Within two hours, she had told all four of them the truth -- that she wasn't "just friends" with OM, and that Puppy hadn't been lying when I told them she was having an affair.

About a week later (around Day 70), I filed for divorce, after my wife stubbornly refused to end her affair.

On Day 90, she ended her affair, and asked "what will it take?" to reconcile. I laid out my short-list of non-negotiable boundaries, and we reconciled.

There were several fits-and-starts after that, with the divorce initially being put on two 3-month "stays" before finally being withdrawn. We also separated for a couple of weeks about a year ago, and agreed to date other people, but that was short-lived, and after one "date" (drinks with a former co-worker) I agreed to move back in with her to work on our marriage. We did some MCing, still struggle with the SSM thing, but have remained great friends and partners ever since, and celebrated both our 25th wedding anniversary and the birth of our first granddaughter this Spring.

Interestingly, when my wife tearfully asked for reconciliation (and thereafter), she told me that although she HATED me at the time, and was LIVID with me for exposing her affair, she understood why I did it, RESPECTED me for it, and THANKED ME for fighting for our marriage!

[Ready2Change]

If anyone out there has ideas for doing some stuff that is spontaneous and fun let me know. I am trying to do things and invite her along but still go if she doesn't want to go. I got the basic ones like dinner, movies, baseball games, card game with friends, etc. I am looking for something that would be unique and "out of character" of what she expects from me.

This is why (to some), I beat the "cheating" thing to death.

If she IS still involved with OM, these things above would be PURSUIT, and NOT a good DB idea right now.

If she ISN'T, then these are not only a good idea, but necessary to begin to rebuild intimacy and spontaneity in the relationship.

As you can see, quite a dilemma.

[Ready2Change]

...you're not a failure. Affairs are HIGHLY addictive, and without complete no-contact, a transparency plan, and GOOD marriage counseling/family therapy, with a FT who specializes in infidelity, the recidivism rate is VERY high -- upwards of 90%.

So it isn't you ... it's him.

Just learn from your mistakes, and protect yourself going forward. Time to ditch the "be his friend" thing, and start worrying more about being "Mamabear." Your kids are going to need you in the next 24 months, in a big way.

[Ready2Change]

...Tonight is the "talk"...

Best to just say "I know all about you and ________, so please don't disrespect me or our family any further by continuing to lie about it." If he does (lie), then put your hand up in the "STOP" position and -- looking him straight in the eye -- say "Stop it. We both know you're lying to me right now, and it's incredibly disrespectful not only to me and to our marriage, but to our family. We always taught our kids the importance of honesty; I've decided that WHATEVER happens with us, I am going to insist on that in our family moving forward." And then if he persists in the lie (ex.: "we're just friends"), turn and leave the room.

I had to do this with my wife. From my personal archives:


Boundaries/”Start with the DECEIT”

I would start with the DECEIT.

Once it became apparent in my sitch that my wife wasn't going to end her affair, despite confrontation, exposure to her parents, siblings, our adult children and her employer, I decided that I couldn't stop her. But I was DAMNED sure going to stop tolerating the DECEIT. She was lying to her own parents (whom I love and respect, very much, and who have been like PARENTS to me throughout our marriage), and to our adult daughters.

So my BIG boundary was this:

"I will no longer tolerate your deceit. I will no longer stand idly by while you have an affair with a boy half your age, and then not only LIE to your parents and our children about it, but you make wild accusations about ME, that I'm 'crazy' and paranoid. Well, that's over. You either tell them the truth, or I will, and I will show them the evidence that I have. You have exactly five minutes to decide."

And I was dead serious.

btw, my smaller boundaries were:

-- no calling or texting OM from inside of our marital home;

-- no calling or texting OM in front of our kids, regardless of where you are;

-- I will no longer allow our family's finances to be spend enabling your affair; you will have to get your own cellphone, and pay for your tummy tuck Visa payments, lingerie, hair-coloring and what-not.

-- If you plan on coming home after 1am, don't bother coming home.

In your case, since you're living apart, I would start with the DECEIT boundary. It's incredibly disrespectful, and there's no reason why you have to stand there and be lied to, continually.

[Ready2Change]

I'm serious. This has been advocated before, experts write about it, and we even had a whole thread devoted to it once. Women, especially, reported how POWERFUL their reaction was when they saw their husbands begin to put their own "stamp" upon the marital home. Just ask Greek.

The bedroom (new set of sheets, new comforter?), kitchen and dining room have particular emotional connections.

Make the changes masculine. The aircraft stuff is perfect.

[Ready2Change]

Today I sent her an email summary of all we discussed in the meeting we had. I had originally composed an opening paragraph to let her know i didn't agree with the separation but thanks to reading Gucci's thread and your advice I reread it and it just looked like i was asking her to reconsider.

I deleted it and just said i appreciate the calmness in the house over the last couple of days and here is the details of what we discussed.

SOMEONE IS LEARNING!!!

[Ready2Change]

I also can't seem to stop defending myself either.

If she is telling you how she feels or what she thinks then let it be and agree with her. It's her choice how she thinks and what she feels.

If she tells you what you think/feel/believe or has behavior that is unacceptable then you bring it up.

[Ready2Change]

I heard this on the radio today:

"Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm. "

and found more here:

Success/Failure quotes

[Ready2Change]

Earlier this year when I stopped showing my W love is when she started really turning around. She realized what she was losing. If you give love even though they're treating you like crap, you're giving them no reason to stop!

[Ready2Change]

Decide right now if you want your spouse back. If they don't love you and are not able or capable of loving you - do you want to be with them? Or are you just used to it? Figure that out quickly.

The sooner you pull away and leave them to be in their own world, come what may, the better. Don't just change you, change the dynamic....Move (emotionally) away as quickly as you can. Seems counter intuitive, but really, your choices are limited. If you do not - you are going to be on that ride until you both implode and you are left to pick up the pieces.

The revisiting and repainting the past? Don't they have to do that? So you can be blamed? 'Cause it cannot be their fault, can it? (that's a nugget)

[Ready2Change]

And you keep bringing back the point about you outing him.

Just put it right back into his lap

"You exposed your husband's affair to everyone... aren't you ashamed?"

"I think the person who should be ashamed is the person HAVING the AFFAIR.. dont' YOU?"

Stuff like that is killer

If they bring up the workplace

"The affair is HAPPENING in his workplace. MOST respectable companies have policies against this. His doesn't. I knew nothing would happen to his job. I exposed an indecency in his workplace that he and this woman were creating... That's all... And NOW they are lying to everyone about it... Shame my dear... They aren't any prouder of what they've been doing than I am for having to expose it. I did this to protect a marriage from a predator... No more and no less"

stuff like that is good... mabye a bit more concise than what i have here... but bring the point back ALWAYS that HE is the one having the affair and you won't accept an attack for HIS betrayal.

You can end it with

"You can support a woman attacking a marriage and a family and attack me too if you want, OR you can press this man to END the affair, and save his marriage and home... It's your choice"

[Ready2Change]

Ok, I need some help here. As the trip to Disney grows closer, if my W brings up my not going again, I'm feeling compelled to say something like "I'm sad your choice to keep OM in your life makes it impossible for us to enjoy such a wonderful experience as a family." Is that a truth dart, or just more demonstration of weakness?

"I have decided this M isn't what I want. I don't want to confuse you or the kids and take a trip together."

Then book a gig in Memphis for that weekend.

Love that -- perfect.

I was going to say -- when she gives you the crap about "selfish" and "disappointing the kids" to respond something like:

"I'm really sorry you feel that way. I decided that such a trip just didn't really work for me right now, considering everything that's happened."

Puppy

[Ready2Change]

So what do I do with a spouse who will not end it but will continue to see him or at least keep on the look out for other men?

Well, I will start by telling you what you DON'T do, Gef. You don't tell her "I will be her friend no matter what happens to us," and you don't "g(i)ve her an out tonight during our talk by telling her that if it was physical I wouldn't end it based on what I have found out about our marriage."

This is all SUPPLICATING, and it KILLS ATTRACTION.

Secondly, re-read your opening paragraphs of your post. Your wife is doing all the LEADING in your relationship right now. Why are you allowing the ONE person who DOESN'T have the marriage's best interests at heart right now, to set the agenda?? Not only is that extremely damaging to your marriage, but it ALSO kills respect (and therefore, attraction) from your wife. YOU need to be leading right now, based on what you think is best for you and your girls. And what you're doing ain't it, with all due respect.

Finally:

You are trying to get your wife to self-confess her infidelity. That's fine to try once, or to lay out a boundary of "I will no longer allow you to lie to our family about your affair" once you have proof. But to keep asking the cheater if they're cheating is fruitless. Because ALL CHEATERS LIE -- PERIOD. Either drop it completely, or get whatever proof you need and then confront her with a "I know all about you and ________" speech, and move on.

You need to set some boundaries, and FAST. Your wife's behavior -- openly, right in front of your daughters -- is harming them emotionally, and killing your own self-esteem. The fact that you put quotes around it, telling us of her trip to see "friends," tells us that you know EXACTLY what's going on, but yet you refuse to do anything about it.

And your girls are going to suffer. These is THE MOST IMPORTANT YEARS of their lives, developmentally, as to how they will relate to boys and men moving forward. I know you want to keep your family intact, but once you cross over into "I will do anything" territory, you've lost your moral compass and you're harming them more than helping them.

[Ready2Change]

What do they want?

To have her way! Look, she's calls you an AH when you don't bow down to whatever she says. Do what you think needs done and don't try to please her. Pleasing one another should be done when you are in a loving R, not getting a D.

[Ready2Change]

One of my 180s this week was going to be to ask him what night he could be home early so I could go out for a little bit on my own. If he asks where I guess I'll tell him to a few stores. This will give me a little bit of time to shop for new clothes without toting 2 toddlers and give them some time with their daddy without me around to either critique him or run over to help out if someone cries.

Perfect! Make sure you do it. Something healthy for you as a person to do.

[Ready2Change]

No the current marriage shouldn't be saved... any marriage that results in adultery needs to be reinvented, that goes without saying.

Your call on no contact... I don't think its ever too late to put a foot down and shut a spouse out... Particularly one like your husband who is doing a GREAT deal of damage to this marriage and is offering ZERO positive input, not even cash which is minimum

I don't think its ever too late to put a foot down.

[Ready2Change]

It throws a wrench in the affair busting process to go out to dinner with a spouse who is violating boundaries... you VALIDATE the affair when you do that...

[Ready2Change]

Well, I think it's important to directly confront a cheating spouse, so that you show a strong, principled stand, and so they know you're fighting for them, for your marriage, and for your family.

And I think Allen's advice about asking a family therapist, and your immediate and/or in-law family, to help persuade a wayward spouse is also important, because it exerts important, third-party influence (you are, after all, a totally biased party/vested interest here).

Make sense??

Puppy

[Ready2Change]

You can't effectively lay out "what it will take," unless they've asked you what it will take. It will, in fact, seem instead like PURSUIT.

[Ready2Change]

Mike when I suggested you have your third party handle this info I am NOT suggesting you ask them to PASS a letter obviously written by you TO her...

I am suggesting that you put these boundaries together as a plan of attack for your family here...

Right now they likely don't know what boundaries to suggest or anything... How ARE they pressuring her specifically right now?

What kind of influence are they exerting specifically...

Where I am going with this is that your FAMILY can say

"WE don't trust you right now, your words mean little to US... WE have been lied to... WE would like you to attend FT for at least five months to be comfortable you are giving this marriage exit some serious thought... WE would like a letter sent to the OM by you and US.."

etc...

YOU don't send her anything. This way YOU aren't the bad guy.. her own family takes the hit...

I am NOT suggesting you appear to HIDE behind them.

My suggestions is to offer her family guidance in concrete specifics that are needed to allow repair work to begin... they likely have no idea...

You can just sit back and let them handle it and be the bad guy...

HOPEfully she turns to YOU when they give her a hard time...

see?

[Ready2Change]

You agree with her. This marriage isn't working for you either.

Remember the question - What do you want? Answer - You want her to be happy. If she would be happier without you then so be it. If it means you work on things great. Either way here is the plan.

Get a plan together for both instances and serve the option without revealing the plans. Wait for the answer and then execute the corresponding plan.

You respect her wishes and you will be fine regardless of the outcome. Then you let her go and let her be the next one to speak.

[Ready2Change]

NEVER go all "melty man" with a spouse who's still wayward. That's for us sensitive guys to do in the bathroom at 2 in the morning, with the exhaust fan on, and your head buried in a big fluffy bath towel.

[Ready2Change]

A strong, confident man would be happy someone else improved themselves. Your W has lost weight, improved her health and is improving her self-esteem and self-confidence. But instead you are jealous and angry because you are stuck.

Your W would never tell you that she is moving on. She knows you can't handle it. She's tired of that. It's unattractive and boring.

How long has she been telling you she wants out? She wants the house sold and the ties to be severed. What is it you are holding on to so dearly? Why are you afraid of letting her go?

[Ready2Change]

This is a great example how to change and IMPROVE COMMUNICATION:

Don't snoop through my email.

I understand that you might get offended when people advise me to protect myself. This is part of the collateral damage done when families are approaching separation and divorce. I've been honest with you about my plans and intentions from the beginning, and I haven't done anything to break that trust.

I have nothing to hide, and I have no reason to lock my computer at this time. won't lock my computer either. But your actions are disrespectful to me and to our relationship. If you ever have any concerns or questions then ask and I will answer.

Edit out the controlling. Edit out the blame. Do not be a victim. Do not react, rather respond. I statements. Truth.

[Ready2Change]

Why should you be confident about your marriage? You are being naive.

Agree with him, this isn't working, he needs to move out, you need to get divorced because he's not a good husband or father.
Let him go, you are pursuing someone who doesn't value you. How does that make you look in his eyes?

When you stand up for yourself is when his feelings start to change.

[Ready2Change]

You guys have kids together, you need to buck up, I am in tx as well, that is why I used that term.

It is tough, we are all in a tough place, but you need to man up and deal with what is going on. For you and your kids, I don't like my sitch either, but you have to live your life for you and your kids. Don't let her get the best of you. When kids are involved you have to be strong for them, you have to be their rock, period. Don't pout, sulk or be angry in front of her, you could have used this interaction to your advantage and been happy and giddy.

Its OK that you didn't but think about it. You need to SHOW her you are moving on.

>>>>>> I have been here for 10 years, with first W, busted D then backslid to no return. Back 3 years ago with 2nd W and busted it again, to be here again I would say I am a lifer here. I am not as technical as others, but I will comment when I see things that are out of whack!!!!

[Ready2Change]

As Coach likes to say, "LEAD." Your actions should be "I thought it'd be fun to take the kids to the amusement park on Saturday. You're welcome to join us." If she pouts, bitches, moans, or whatever, YOU STILL GO, and you remain UPBEAT about it.

[gr8 day 2B alive]

R2C I thought this was worth posting here:
Coach-

Gr8, I agree with Puppy. Once I got served I knew it was basically one year until it was final. So I was already dead and had nothing to lose. What I did know was that what I was doing wasn't working. Solution: become attractive without pursuing. My goals became for me to get her to come to me. She asked me out, she showed the first affection, she initated ML , she told me she wanted to do the work to reconcile. I learned what I could about attraction, the differences in communication, I stayed busy, I wanted her to spew on me, I was aware of what she needed and why. Then I used what I had learned and tried things a little bit at a time. It amazed me when things worked just like I had been told (Because my sitch was unique just like everybody else's.)
You do have to let go, it's a game changer.

[Ready2Change]

Seems a lot of people here struggle with what their WAS is doing and what they should be doing. LBS struggle with letting go of their anger and finding compassion for their spouse. One of the first things to do in any conflict resolution is find some common ground then seek to understand the other sides perspective. So lets find some common ground then seek understanding.

180 - behave differently, detach- WAS ahead of LBS, Act as If - we call it Fog, GAL - good for both sides, Goals - WAS have plans, Take care of Yourself, Going Dark, LRT - WAS BTDT

So the WAS is off the reservation and the LBS is still stuck. The WAS is sending a sign that this R needs to grow, it's not healthy and this is how they are coping. So the WAS is doing things to feed themselves, they have been hurting and their needs have been neglected. Granted they don't always do it in a productive and healthy way but it's what they decided. The WAS is taking care of themselves by doing all the things a good DBer is supposed to be doing. So if the belief is we DB to grow to become a healthier, wiser and stronger individual no matter the outcome then the WAS is walking to do the same thing. We just don't agree on the methods they use.

So why try and fight or hold back someone who is desperately trying to self-actualize and find their true self? That's the wisdom and magic of letting them go. If you love them wouldn't you want them to be the best they could? The WAS also wants you to grow and be your best, they show it by leaving a unhealthy R. A WAS is trying to establish boundaries in the only way they know how. A unhealthy R is not good for you. The WAS is not your enemy. They show a different form of tough love.

Our goal is still to save your marriage. When you can understand and find some compassion for what your WAS is doing it helps you detach, grow and think better. Get ahead of your WAS and learn how to use the right tools, learn what works and why and find out all the different ways you can love someone.

[Gardener]

^^^THIS^^^Is excellent!

Thank you, Coach and R2C.

Peace,

[Ready2Change]

Wise words from Dan:

A marriage takes WORK to be successful. Not all times will be as good as you would like. It is a LONG_TERM commitment that goes through many phases. If there are things you don't like, speak-up and work to make them better. Don't just get-up and leave. The 2nd time around isn't easier and I'm not sure that being alone is the answer either. The divorce rate just goes up for each consecutive marriage. It is not pretty. You just carry your problems from one relationship to the next if you don't work on fixing them.

My Thoughts: During the bomb/post bomb phase, The WORK required is different than the work required when the other person is also working on the R. Know the difference and apply the new learned behavior to improve the R.

[Ready2Change]

Well, establishing custody for the NOW doesn't have to mean you are done with the R. The marriage and custody are two separate issues.

The time you have with your children isn't about the marriage (or not) - it's about creating the best possible scenario for you and the children. If things change between the two of you that is great! If not, well, you have created framework for your new family (you and the children).

Plus - if she did want to get back together and you decided to take her back lots of stuff would have to happen and it won't happen overnight. In the meantime no reason you can't keep building for you!

[Ready2Change]

Dropping the rope and detaching are external things at first. But you have to start somewhere and in most cases the "somewhere" needs to be tangible.

If you were trapped in a burning house and your body was engulfed in flames you would not be wondering how to treat the burns and what he recovery time will be. You will be wondering how the hell to GET OUT. Once you are out then you focus on the recovery.

Dropping the rope gets you out of the burning building. Once you are out it's a long road to recovery. You can only recover from the fire once it's extinguished.

[Ready2Change]

I do realize that since she's pulled the lawsuit trigger, it'll be that much easier for her to pull it again.

W e-mailed me and asked if I'd go to lunch with her next Monday to chat. I said ok.

Nooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My god, have you learned NOTHING in your time on here????

[Ready2Change]

Sit her down one day and just be straight with her,
"look this whole process we're going through is because you weren't happy with us or specifically with me. I just didn't do it for you anymore, and you really didn't enjoy being married to me. Looking back I can see you felt like this for quite some time, its the reason why you had that first affair and it's the reason why we split up this time. I get it and I'm fine with it, and it's time for both of us to move on, I won't be knocking down your door begging you to take me back because it's not what I want anymore, truth be told I don't know what I want but I wasn't happy back there either, it's time for both of us to accept this break from each other and explore our options and see what life has in store for us. We're going to have to communicate and be civil with regards to the kids, I know I will do my part in that, but as far as all of this other stuff, maybe it's time you tried taking care of this stuff by yourself instead of always relying on me to do it, not being mean or punitive but I'm a busy guy too and between the kids, my work and my personal life, there isn't a lot of time left over to be available as much as I am to you, I hope you can respect me enough to give me my space now that we're no longer together."

Don't text a message like that,
you sit them down the next time you see them,
and you start it off by saying
"Maybe you should sit down, we need to talk about something...."

takes less than a minute and it has a lasting impact,
because you did it in person, you initiated the conversation, you were genuine & honest enough to do something about the situation and you asked for space.

Doing it by email or txt would never accomplish the same thing. Emails & txt can't convey body language & sincerity expressed in your voice tone.

[Ready2Change]

The main goal of DBing is for us to become better people, for us to forgive and for us to be able to move forwards with our lives with or without our wayward spouses.

...but I do see my part in the break up of my family.

There comes a time when we have to look in the mirror and truly see ourselves for who we are. To stop the blame game and start accepting responsibility. Own what is yours, and make real changes.

[Ready2Change]

She tells me "I don't know if we SHOULD stay together"?

Agree with her. "I agree. I am not sure I want to be married to someone I can't trust. I have some decisions I need to make."

It means she tested you. She can't believe you would be in a R with a woman who betrayed you. Her question was a statement.

[Ready2Change]

This is the point of the exposure, it SHOULD educate as well... You want to make it EASY for them to avoid the infidelity.

I often tell people to give them an out :


I am not asking you to confront my husband, or sit with him for hours and lecture him about how abusive infidelity is.

What I AM asking for is at bare minimum you won't get INVOLVED with him OR his infidelity. What I AM asking for is for you to REFUSE outings with him and OW. What I AM asking for is for you to simply distance yourself from his abusive lifestyle that is hurting me and even members of his own family. What I AM asking for is you to NOT become PART of his infidelity by socializing with either of them...

We ARE MARRIED still and WH's infidelity is incredibly abusive and disrespectful to me.

Please don't disappoint me or his family by allowing him to manipulate you into becoming part of his abuse.

Just say NO.. It's ONE SYLLABLE...

[Puppy Dog Tails]

It's not a matter of people "knowing" 4myboys...

The principle is about ensuring that the truth and facts are revealed.

In most cases during infidelity the wayward spouse will spin a line of stories about why they have movedo out, why the marriage isn't working, and why they have filed divorce etc...

They will either lie to everyone that the OW or OM is "just a friend" or they will lie about the marriage being "a mistake" and that they are "moving on"

At the same time in secret they are conducting a sexual affair, or they are cake-eating and leading their LBS on in private...

In some cases the WS is even arrogant enough to lie to their family that the LBS APPROVES of the affair and that they are both "moving on" when the LBS in fact does NOT approve and is NOT "moving on" and very much wants the marriage saved.

The purpose of exposure is to ensure that the TRUTH and the FACTS are readily available to everyone and that the addicted WS is NOT spinning lies and getting away with it.

The exposure on your end should make the following points known :

a. Infidelity is hurtful and you feel devastated
b. You want to save your marriage
c. OW is an interloper and obstacle to the marriage being saved
d. Invite them to refuse to participate in WH's affair by refusing to meet or socialize with either of them until he ends his affair

If you stand by these points, then make them KNOWN to your social circle and RE-EXPOSE any lies your WH is spinning about to people...

This is not to be "vendictive" or "mean"... if anything it is an expression of how much you love your spouse to speak up in public like this and to protect your marriage, your home, and everything you have worked for

[Ready2Change]

...I realized my kids emotions mirrored mine. Not 100% but at least by 70% (if you can measure that with %). that's when I felt really guilty for the devastation they lived through my devastation the first couple of months. That's when I realized I was the strongest role model they had. (Thank God, my brother (their uncle) stepped in and became their male role model)....but I tend to believe kids are affected because of the way their parents deal with it and all the consequences a divorce brings (standard of living, step dads, step moms, change of routines, 2 houses etc etc). It's not a theoretical-vague thing. These are things we can improve, affect and decide how to handle.

[Ready2Change]

I do know that holding onto anger and resentment for your spouse is making your children suffer too, and they are not learning how to cope with adversity well from you if that is your focus.

[Ready2Change]

...I do believe that how we, parents, handle our divorce, plays a HUGE role on how the kids will "adjust" and deal with it emotionally. I've seen it and I lived it. That is why I always urge people here, to separate what they feel for their xSs from what is good for their kids regarding interactions, schedules, etc.

[Ready2Change]

The WAW often believes that their problem is their spouse, which is why they walk. They are usually wrong. Their problem is themselves and walking away from the marriage actually delays or even prevents them from dealing with their issues.

[Ready2Change]

I have a question....

I was reading some things over in the infidelity forum.

I know I made numerous mistakes and was a total basketcase when I first came here.

But I also know now in hindsight that exposing my Husband's affair to everyone backfired.

It didn't make him suddenly want to come home and reconcile.

It made him angry and hostile and only justified his reasons for leaving me.

I was hoping if any of you could post here your experiences.

Thanks so much!!

It honestly worked for me, but it certainly doesn't for everyone. Affairs thrive on secrecy (and romance and intrigue), and often when you expose them, it'll IMMEDIATELY kill the affair maybe 25% of the time, in my experience. Others are more deeply entrenched, and it takes longer, and re-exposure, and re-RE-exposure. Others it will NEVER work (no one technique does).

It does pose complications, too. It will make your cheating spouse LIVID in the short-term; some get over that in a day or two, others take longer. Relationships will have to be mended once you reconcile. I personally would definitely do it again (it worked very well), but I probably wouldn't have exposed to my own family -- just my wife's, our adult children, OM's parents and their employer. But that's just me.

I think we all need to try to be respectful of each other's positions on this (and other) controversial topics, and realize that our own experiences are just that -- our experiences. What works for one doesn't work for all, and -- whenever possible -- we should back up our opinions with research whenever possible. Some of the best infidelity authors, researchers and counselors out there DO recommend this as a tactic (Harley, Glass, Spring, Tupy and others), so it's far from a screwball, fringe position.

I think this is one of those "reasonable people may disagree" things.

[Ready2Change]

Either way, you have no influence.

Absolutely you have influence. The reason people get stuck is because they feel hopeless and they grasp for straw (babysteps). You are being watched by your wives, I promise. Focus on the process not the outcome.

Get your mojo back so that you thrive regardless of the outcome. Then you will see the influence you have on those around you. The problem is you guys don't understand what woman want. What's attractive to a woman? Never lose sight of that.

Do you guys know what it takes to let go? What are you letting go of? Why is that attractive?

[Ready2Change]

This article has popped up several times today on this thread. I just don't see it as being in conflict with true exposure. The article suggests that constantly telling your family about your marital problems or whining to them about how bad your spouse is will damage your chances of reuniting. I actually agree. What this article is addressing is called gossip and that is damaging no matter what kind of relationship it is.

However, true exposure is very different from what this article is talking about. It does not come from a place of "getting back" at the spouse. It is designed to bring the secrets into the light. Affairs thrive in secrecy. When the bright light is shined on them, most of them can't take the stress of reality and the marriage then has a chance of healing.

We can debate about how, when, to whom, etc but exposure does work. I used a limited form of exposure in my sitch and it definitely worked. I would not have been able to put my marriage back together if I hadn't done it.

There are some on this board who are such strong advocates of their positions for or against that they cannot tolerate other opinions. I hope that everyone can learn from all the recent discussion and stop the personal attacks. We all have the same goal in mind. We just have different ways of achieving it.

[Ready2Change]

Here is an email I got this morning from the W;


We obviously cannot come to an agreement. Any further communications need to go through my attorney. Please do not contact me again. If you would like to set up some temporary visitation arrangements before Oct. hearing you can do so with my attorney. I will pick up S every day until the hearing unless other arrangements have been made through my attorney.


My response was this: please forward your attorneys info, glad you have the kids best interest in mind.

Yes I could have left the last sentence out, but here we go with another power play on her part using the kids. She makes me sick, I am really upset right now.

Seriously I would have wrote her back this:

"...Without a formal custody agreement in place,
you can not legally stop me from seeing my kids or stop me from having them at my place, until a formal custody agreement is in place you can assume I will take them 50% of the time. No court has given you 100% custody of my children and no court has given you the authority to grant me "temporary visitation" as you see fit when it's suitable to you & your schedule. What you have just attempted to offer me is illegal, contact your lawyer if you refute my claims. I am and will always be their father and it is in the children's best interests to have BOTH parents in their lives, not just a mother who works 2 jobs and lets the kids live in daycare most of the time - this type of parenting is not in the children's best interests. Keeping the children away from me is illegal when there is no custody agreement in place.

I will also remind you that the courts decided in my favor the last time we went through this process. Until a custody agreement is in place expect me to pick up my children on these days of the week (xxx...) from now on.

FYI I showed up at the first hearing that you decided to NOT show up for, I'm trying to move on with my life and I'm not holding back this d process, you are and I have no idea why since you filed for divorce.

As for your email about why I am shoving you away and why I don't want to have a personal relationship with you, is there any wonder why I wouldn't want to be friends with you? You are continuously controlling & manipulative, what kind of person would willingly keep their kids away from their father? I don't think I've been going out of my way to deny you access to the kids, how would you feel if this was done to you.

I get to choose who I'm friends with and I have pretty high standards when it comes to the types of friends I have, I don't have any friends who have treated me as poorly as you have and that is why I don't want to have a "personal" relationship with you so please stop pushing that issue on me.

I advise you to contact your lawyer and let him know that you are purposely keeping the children away from me when I have asked repeatedly for shared custody and ask him if you have the legal right to do this, I think you will find out your answer soon enough.

The children will be with BOTH of us from now on, if you need me to work on a schedule that assists with your work shifts, so be it, I can be flexible but I won't tolerate continuing with literally no access to my children."

[Ready2Change]

Attraction:

Whats attractive to men

What women find attractive

and

Sandi's Do's and Dont's list

[Ready2Change]

...You will read that this is counter-intuitive. It should really be taken a step further; It will "feel" wrong when you are doing it right.

I still have some trouble with it myself and I've been here long enough to know better. Don't worry about her moods, if she's mad, cranky or whatever. It's hard to do, no doubt. However, you must ignore her sh!tty behavior while doing what you must do to grow and improve yourself.

Read all that you can and notice all of the situations share a lot of common threads, lack of communication is chief among them. She will make it all your fault. It's not. Look what it took for people to turn things around. Don't wait too long to do the hard work of letting her go. Letting go doesn't mean it's over, it means that you accept that your old M is over and it's time to move on to something else. Hopefully a new, better M where you both take responsibility for each of your parts in the M that drove you apart.

Again, read, learn and be prepared to do some really difficult things that seem the complete opposite of what you feel like you should be doing.

[Ready2Change]

...I've done a 180 in my behavior towards her and my son. I realized that the way I was living my life was detrimental to me and the people I loved. I've apologized to my W for my behavior, shown remorse for my actions, and have begun work on myself to be a better person....I let her go and told her I would not stop her from leaving. Since then we've been talking a lot about us and her feelings towards me. I've been actively listening, validating her feelings, and respectfully disagreeing with her when I felt it was appropriate. She initiates all of these conversations. On Sunday night she told me that she's re-evaluating everything and that whatever I'm doing is having an effect on her. I told her that I'm here if she wants to stay, I will not stop her from going either, and that staying means no inappropriate contact outside of our M or I'll pack her bags for her....

[DumpedforMIL]

i hate to ask this question here but what is 'active listening'?

[TimeHeals]

i hate to ask this question here but what is 'active listening'?

It's when you really, really listen without trying to talk somebody out of their feelings.

For example, let's say you have a small child. Let's say your wife is out of town on business for a week.

You small child says, "I wish mommy were here with us".

If you aren't actively listening, you might say, "I know, but she can't be", and the child may get more aggitated.

What is your child really saying?

"I miss mom".

So if you said, "I know. I wish she were here too", you have understood, you have validated their feelings instead of trying to logically reason with them about how mom can't be there, and your child feels that you really heard them.

Active listening. What is it they are really saying? Are they trying to tell you how they feel?

[Greek]

Active listening is a communication technique. Active listening requires the listener to understand, interpret, and evaluate what they hear. When interacting, people often are not listening attentively. They may be distracted, thinking about other things, or thinking about what they are going to say next (the latter case is particularly true in conflict situations or disagreements). Active listening is focusing attention on the speaker. Suspending one’s own frame of reference and suspending judgment are important to fully attend to the speaker.

Greek

[Coach]

Active listening is a communication technique. Active listening requires the listener to understand, interpret, and evaluate what they hear. When interacting, people often are not listening attentively. They may be distracted, thinking about other things, or thinking about what they are going to say next (the latter case is particularly true in conflict situations or disagreements). Active listening is focusing attention on the speaker. Suspending one’s own frame of reference and suspending judgment are important to fully attend to the speaker.

Greek

I'm sorry what did you say?????????????

[Greek]

Active listening is a communication technique. Active listening requires the listener to understand, interpret, and evaluate what they hear. When interacting, people often are not listening attentively. They may be distracted, thinking about other things, or thinking about what they are going to say next (the latter case is particularly true in conflict situations or disagreements). Active listening is focusing attention on the speaker. Suspending one’s own frame of reference and suspending judgment are important to fully attend to the speaker.

Greek

I'm sorry what did you say?????????????

Ok, funny boy
Greek

[TimeHeals]

I'm sorry what did you say?????????????

Ummm... err... it was something about being suspended for an active disagreement or somethin'.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Man, did I ever see THAT one coming . . .

[Greek]

Man, did I ever see THAT one coming . . .

Yeah...it was Coach "script".
Greek

[A_goodman]

From a mile away and around the bend!

[A_goodman]

Coach's script?!?

Damn! I gotta find THAT thread!

[DumpedforMIL]

thanks TH and Greek.

the explanation and examples helped. sometimes i read advice about how one should be 'actively listening' and i hadn't a clue what that meant.

i'm usually the one who tries to logically reason with the other person. so this is something i really need to work on.

What is it they are really saying? Are they trying to tell you how they feel?

how do i know when my answers to the above questions are due to 'mind-reading'?

R2C - sorry for the mini-hijack. i think greek's explanation deserved to be sticky-ed here. i hope it helps others who don't know what active listening is.

[TimeHeals]

how do i know when my answers to the above questions are due to 'mind-reading'?

Not asking you to read minds. I gave you an example for a reason.

In the example, the child says "I wish mom were here".

Now, you could argue with the child and say, "Mom cannot be here" and invalidate what the child is trying to tell you which is "I wish she were [I miss mom]", or you could validate "I know you do, and I wish she were too", and the child sees you understand. You have communicated.

The idea is to listen more objectively. People will tell you all of the time how they feel indirectly. If you try to fix them or argue or reason, you basically invalidate them. If you are really listening, you will see they are just trying to tell you how they feel however.

You have to stop making your whole experience about YOU for a minute, and just listen to them. If you filter everything people say through your own experience, you miss a lot, and if you aren't paying attention because you are too focused on you, that doesn't work either.

It isn't that hard, but it takes practice. Con men can do it. So can you

i'm usually the one who tries to logically reason with the other person. so this is something i really need to work on.

There you go. You can do it. Just stop trying to fix things, teach, and reason Let people share their experiences without trying to influence them.

Don't feel too badly about doing what you have done. I don't have any statistics on-hand, but I routinely get reasoning and how-to-fix that responses from people when I tell them how I feel, so I would say active listening isn't the norm. It's the exception.

Be exceptional

[Ready2Change]

It's more "redirecting" your emotions by thinking of something more pleasant...

It's not that at all. It's thinking through why you feel a certain way, understanding it then challenging that thinking to find a better outcome. Once you think of possibilities your mind get's off the hopeless loop.

Read up on Aaron Beck, Albert Ellis and Martin Seligman.

[Ready2Change]

The idea of NOT contacting him is to get the attachment feelings to kick in.. basically to press him to miss you.

He told you a while ago he wanted to stop using the intermediary, that's usually a good sign that you KEEP doing it, not STOP doing it.

[Ready2Change]

you are pussy whipped, plain & simple.

Having hobbies and going out a few times a week aren't real issues.

If you aren't allowed to go out for an hour every other day to the gym or some other activity, what kind of life will you have where you just get to go to work, go home, pay bills, take care of the kids and then go to bed, wash rinse repeat, day in and day out?!

Her yelling at you in public,
"...she cursed me out in the middle of the street in front of our friends while holding our son. I was so devastated."

Telling you how $hitty you are,
telling your parents and everyone else how pathetic you are,
it's abuse, plain & simple.

You have a victim mentality and you don't realize it.

You keep trying to do more & more to please her,
and she keeps treating you even more poorly for it.
It confuses you, no matter what you do, you can't make her happy and that is your first lesson in all of this, you can't make her happy. No one can make someone else "happy", you can add to another person's happiness but you can't make them "happy".

Happiness is a DIY job.

She has an anger problem,
she is extremely abusive,
she is never happy,
she is never satisfied with anything, no matter how hard you try to please her,
you work hard to gain her favor and approval,
you've moved out of the home to give her "space" and hopefully she'll want to be with you again.

How is any of this working for you so far?

Positive results?

Nope.

Keep doing this stuff, I guarantee more of the same crap behavior from her.

Here is my advice:

Move back home.

When she throws a $hit tantrum, let her explode, you remain calm during all of this. Then tell her that you don't want to be married to her anymore, she treats you poorly, doesn't appreciate anything you do, no matter what you do, you can't make her happy because she doesn't want to be happy, she would prefer to be angry and bully you constantly and be abusive to you. Tell her you will look into selling the house, splitting up your assets and filing for joint custody of your kid and then you will file for divorce. She can be free from you and you will be free from her and her abusive ways. Tell her that if she doesn't like that you moved back home (your home as well as hers, moving out to give a spouse "space" NEVER WORKS!), she is free to move out and live somewhere else.

This is what I would do.

You don't have the guts to do this yet and I understand why,
you've been abused for so long, you feel weak in comparison to your wife, she has all the power and that's part of what killed the attraction in your relationship, you don't act like a man, she acts more like a man than you do, you are more feminine than she is. I bet you are quiet, soft spoken, don't complain much when people abuse or hurt you or take advantage of you, you probably just shrug your shoulders because you are used to that kind of treatment. You are a nice guy, you really sound like one, helping common friends, having innocent hobbies, being a family man, working hard, not asking much for yourself, afraid to initiate sex because you are afraid that you will bother your wife which is probably what happens with most other things that the two of you interact on, you have an opinion, she has an opinion, she wins, you offer no challenge whatsoever. You work hard at work and then come home, take on the bulk of the household chores, cooking, cleaning, etc. and it's still never enough.

Newsflash...

It will never be enough.

You can't please an angry person that is used to treating you horribly. The only thing you can do in this situation if you have any hope of turning your marriage & relationship around is to stand up for yourself, turn that mouse into a man and stand up for yourself for once in your life.

Your wife doesn't respect you and she doesn't love you.
Regardless of the few morsels and crumbs she throws your way with a txt or spoken word, she doesn't love you. If she does love you, it's not the right kind of love. If you love someone would you tell them how $hitty they are constantly? Would you contact their family and tell them the same? Would you yell at them and curse at them in public in front of other people showing everyone how little you value them? Would you be constantly abusive always demanding more and more and more of your spouse while offering nothing in return? Would you tell your spouse that they have to go work full time and then come home take care of every household task and that they are not allowed to go out for an hour every other day?

No you wouldn't.

You're too much of a nice guy.

Doing all of the above, that's how you would treat an enemy or a prisoner. That's the successful way to abuse someone for years & years and train them to believe that they are bad, train them to never question the bad treatment and just accept it.

It's horrible.

Your wife doesn't respect you because you don't respect yourself enough to stand up for yourself. If you can't stand up for yourself, if you can't stand up to her, how could you ever be expected to stand up for her should the need ever arise to protect her and your family. I'm sure you would but you've pretty much convinced your wife and me at this point that you don't have a lot of self-respect, no one with a healthy amount of self-respect and self-esteem would allow someone to walk all over them the way you allow her to.

If you wife can't respect you, she can't love you.
Plain & simple.

The advice I've given is counter-intuitive,
it goes against everything you FEEL you should be doing which is continuing to kiss her a$$, take her abuse, move out, supplicate her, etc. etc. etc.

Unfortunately continuing to do what you've done in the past is going to get you the same results over & over again. Could you really live like this for the rest of your life? Are you willing to set this example for your children who will learn by watching you to accept the same kind of treatment and abuse from their spouse when they're in the same situation. If not for you, do it for your kid.

This is my advice, given freely, not forced on you, in the end it's your life, you have to choose to do what's best for you, you have to determine the value of your own life and how much it's worth to you and how much you can tolerate for the rest of your life. Your situation will only change when you decide that you really want it to change and when you decide to start doing things differently to get different results.

Good luck bro ;-)

one other thing,
this isn't about you having hobbies,
this isn't about your wife having hobbies,
this has to do with sexual polarity being switched between the two of you, her being more masculine and you being more feminine, this has to do with her being abusive and no one standing up to her: not you, her family, your family, no one, everyone pretty much gets beat up by her because everyone lets her.

You would be wise to go back and read what Rob posted. If you don't understand then ask or do your homework.

Coach and Robx are wise men...I strongly suggest listening to their words....

[Ready2Change]

Let me put it this way...

Children do the same stuff :
a. They get scared
b. They escape into trouble - hang out with the wrong people
c. They get caught
d. They stone wall you with rationalizations and excuses
e. They resist help and change for the better
f. They say hurtful things, yell, thrash, and even throw things

PARENTS don't get involved in that drama... When a child yells at their parent the parent has control... they stand there with arms folded waiting for the child to calm down and cooperate...

You need to learn to look at your wife like a frightened child right now ... Parents don't get into shouting matches with their kids... well, they shouldn't at least...

I hope that gives you some perspective...

There's an instinct built over years of being with your spouse... cooperation... You try to reason with them, keep them in the loop, talk, negotiate... you KNOW you two are stronger together than separate so you immediately offer that up...

Your SPOUSE is NOT ready for that kind of thing... you need to back up and accept them as a rebellious child right now ... and parents don't reason with children who are angry and destructive... they bring consequences down in the child until the child starts to reason again...

Parents don't put up with their kids crap... Don't you take any from your wife either.

Call her on it, reasonably, like a parent would a child when they know their kids lying to them... you call them on it, correct it, and invite them again to calm down...

It's a matter of shifting your marital gears until the addiction is free of them and they have some hope again...

These waywards know their excuses don't fly... if nothing else when they try to throw these excuses at you... just say

"No"

And wait

[Ready2Change]

You need to stop kissing her a$$

It's repulsive to pretty much everyone, including your wife and that's what you're doing now regardless if you know it or admit it.

What you should be doing:
- go to work, get your mind off her, I know it's difficult to but you have to do it
- after work, go home, spend time with your kids (don't worry about spending time with her)
- if you want to cook meals for your kids, go ahead and do it, if she complains, tell her very simply "I don't need your permission to make a meal for myself and for my kids, stop analyzing everything I'm doing."
- start going to the gym when you can and just get out of the house away from her and get some personal time for you, this time is specifically for YOU, not to make her feel less pressured because you're around the house and any other nonsense like that, start investing time in you
- go out and do some shopping, get some new jeans, shirts, fresh kicks (sneakers), get yourself a haircut, some new style, start tanning to help improve your mood and alleviate any depression
- start taking multi-vitamins, vitamin b supplements, iron, clean up your diet, maybe replace one of your meals everyday with a protein shake: clean up your insides while you're polishing up your external look
- working out, eating healthier, etc. should provide you more energy to cope with this situation

After a few weeks of this routine, you should be looking & feeling better. Then you sit your wife down and tell her

"...look I get it, you don't want to be with me anymore, we've gone through this song & dance before and I'm seriously sick of it myself. I've been doing a lot of thinking and this isn't something I want anymore, I'm tired of the fighting and I don't know how I feel about you anymore. I'm not moving out of this home because this is where I want to be, and I'm going to be sleeping in the master bedroom so you should start moving your stuff out of the bedroom as well. I also think you should move out since you wanted out so badly, it will reduce the arguing and tense feelings we have walking around each other when we're home at the same time right now. If necessary I can help you pack your things and help you move out to your new place. I will pursue shared custody of the kids, 50/50, I don't plan on being a weekend dad anytime soon, we will work out a schedule that works out for both of us. I will be civil with you with regards to the kids and leave it at that, I don't require anything else from you and you will not require anything else from me. I hope you can find a new place relatively quickly to expedite this process, no sense in being somewhere you don't want to be."

And that's it.

You carry on with your daily business and you let her do whatever she wants to do and you let her go.

Seriously, the quickest way to get her back is to let her go.

No amount of a$$ kissing, supplicating her with taking on the lion's share of the household chores, working fulltime, moving out, giving her the master bedroom, taking a verbal beating from her every time you walk through a room a disturb the air around her, buying her gifts, dinners, taking her out, offering to take her out will help you. When people try too hard in these situations, they fail even harder and it's hard to recover from that because you feel like you deserve something after putting in all that effort and when you don't get it, you feel horrible.

That's it, that's your plan.

One other thing, I seriously don't want to hear how your situation is unique, how it's different from any other situations around here, because as much as you're "unique", you're also pretty damn similar to every other situation around here.

[Ready2Change]

the stress and pain of staying and working on the M; and, the relief from stress that the constructed divorce plan provides. If you can relieve the stress of the relationship by DBing, you can make the divorce plan less compelling. Ultimately, you may even turn the R around

Google "The Stockdale Paradox."

Helped me prepare on two separate parallel paths. Work on the reconciliation while getting out in front of and dealing with a divorce.

[Ready2Change]

You've been advised to sleep in your own bed/bedroom (probably THE most non-controversial, unanimous, CONSENSUS issue in all of DB-land), and to stop taking all of the blame for your marital dysfunction.

You've done neither.

This defensive, apologetic, supplicating behavior WILL NOT WORK, and it's only TURNING YOUR WIFE OFF.

If you're going to gather intel, then do it systematically, secretly and intelligently, and if you get caught it's simply "I'm trying to fight for our marriage, and I would do it again if I felt it was threatened."

Your wife smells your fear, I can assure you.

[Ready2Change]

Hold it...

Don't word it like

"you cannot..."

Its...

"In order to trust you, I need you to..."

And you have to offer the same restrictions... You offer full disclosure and transparency of phone logs etc...

[Ready2Change]

but it does seem like he is starting to show signs of becoming more interested now that I am pulling away. I think me telling him that I am moving on and going to start dating may have surprised him.

get two wine glasses and take a drink out of them. Rinse them out and have them drying by the sink. If he asks you can just reply, "Oh, I used those." Then keep walking.

[Ready2Change]

"My kids need to see me, and I will do what it takes to make that happen, within my rights of course."

Have you picked them up and kept them for a few days yet, nothing is stopping you. Your wife is apparently capable of doing it, nothing stops her, you are capable also, let her know that you're picking up the kids and just do it. Pussyfooting around with emails & texts will not get the job done.

Call her, "wife, I'm picking up the kids today after school, they will be with me today, tomorrow and Saturday, I'll drop them off Sunday at noon."

[Ready2Change]

I stayed at my home last night, and I am going to continue to do so. When pressed, I plan to say that she cannot force me to leave and leave it at that. I will not abandon my son.

"When pressed?!"

Methinks you might be a little scared to pull it off,
give it to her straight, if you want to stop the cycle, you do it by actually changing how you do things.

Instead of saying
"You can't force me to leave.... blah blah blah"

Why not stand up for yourself a little and tell her
"I've DECIDED that I WILL STAY,
you CAN DECIDE if YOU WANT TO LEAVE"

If she mentions why should she leave if she's done nothing, you tell her she's done PLENTY!

Being afraid of your wife (or vice versa your husband depending on your situation) is $hitty type of marital relationship to be in.

Life is too short to be in a relationship where you're afraid of your spouse.

[Ready2Change]

So you are being a good dad, working on yourself and still you are in limbo....Start moving on. Become mysterious. Flirt for the sake of flirting. Make people glad to be around you, radiate warmth and let your charisma flow. Your wife is watching you. Be catnip.

[Ready2Change]

Confidence comes from being prepared.