Quotes found on Divorce Busting Forums (4)

[Ready2Change]

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Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B.

[Ready2Change]

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..an argument I've seen used lately was "how dare you speak this way since you haven't saved your M"? Excuse me? If that was a valid argument, 99% of the veterans would have to quit posting. The Bomb and the aftermath, brings lots of wisdom. And one thing it taught me is that we need to keep our eyes open to different ways of approaching things and that we CANT control people.

[Ready2Change]

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Most women suddenly get VERY attracted to a man who walks away with his head held high knowing and realizing that he is a "great catch" and that he not only DESERVES a woman who is mad about him, but will GET one..

Your own lack of self confidence in what she really is giving up is what is holding back reconciliation. LET HER GO.. YOUR CHOICE.. YOU be the letting go leader..

MAKE her chase you... You have NEVER given her the chance to see how she really feels about you.. Give her that freedom and give her that chance. Hold the line. . Show her a man who chooses NOT to be with a woman who isn't attracted to him. They both deserve better.

[Ready2Change]

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Rarely, if ever, does the truth cause problems. How much of a 'free pass' should these cheaters be given? It's not OK what he did, and his infidelity is about a zillion times worse than your exposure of it.

[Ready2Change]

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I like the whole idea of "Doing the right thing... as if God, himself, were sitting there watching you".

You don't even have to be religious to get that either. It is saying to aspire to a more objective, universal ideal of doing the right thing ... often despite any emotions or personal agenda.

Or to paraphrase Coach, don't act on your emotions. Act on your principles.

[Ready2Change]

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You will need to be wise, loving, strong, in control and compassionate to make this work. You need to look at this like you are looking into a fish bowl to see the big picture and to see yourself in this.

[Ready2Change]

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R2C .. can u sticky that one?

All your answers are wrapped up and hidden in this statement:

I think I still do want W back, but I'm not even sure why I should anymore. I guess it is still fear of the unknown, of being alone.

Have you heard that leading is attractive to women? Then do not fear the unknown. Set your personal goals and start taking steps to reach them. I know you are doing this in certain areas of your life.

I challenge you to set a relationship goal. Would you like a #10 relationship with a woman by next Xmas? What would that look like? Your very first step is to set your wife free. I am sure you have read this before. Your next step is to get to happy alone. Enjoy every minute of every day. Enjoy every person you interact with. Do things that you enjoy. If you are lonely, go to places and interact with people. My place is starbucks. It is 1 mile from my house. I can walk in there anytime of day and know some one. I offer big smiles and lots of listening....

[Starsky309]

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You will need to be wise, loving, strong, in control and compassionate to make this work. You need to look at this like you are looking into a fish bowl to see the big picture and to see yourself in this.

Wow, that's really good. I hope I can be quoted someday!

Starsky

[Ready2Change]

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"If you keep this crap up"....

If suggests you're still putting up with this crap,
If suggests you're still hanging in there waiting for her to change,
If suggests that you're not moving on,
If suggests that you're not decisive

Stop the "if's", be decisive, just make a decision and go with it, you'll be surprised how well this skill translates into other areas of your life.

Just do it.
No "if's", No trying, No in-between indecisiveness.

2 options: Just DO it, or don't do it.

[Ready2Change]

when one realizes a past grave error in their own judgment, there's nothing that says they can't say "I made a mistake, and I won't live like that anymore."

[Ready2Change]

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Your response is simple:
"Look, you decided to get a new place and you will have to be a big girl now and figure out how to handle the expense of living on your own. I didn't make you move out. I didn't decide for you to get a new place. You made all those decisions on your own without me and you assumed that you can just demand for me to finance your new life, and you need to know that I won't be doing that for you. Since you made all those decisions, you now have to figure out how to live on your own without my help since you offered the same option to me. FYI - from now on, I will take care of myself and my children when they're with me and you will have to learn to do the same at your end when you have them. You chose all of this, now deal with the consequences."

[Coach]

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You will need to be wise, loving, strong, in control and compassionate to make this work. You need to look at this like you are looking into a fish bowl to see the big picture and to see yourself in this.

Wow, that's really good. I hope I can be quoted someday!

Starsky

too bad you'll never get the highly coveted PDT (RIP) four whistles -

[Starsky309]

Man, Julie Christie's got nothing on you, does she Coach?!

[Ready2Change]

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Apparently, my W told his that she is lonely now.

Time to ramp up your GAL list. get busy, be social, throw a party - post it on FB, join a club, play at the park......

When you are busy, in demand and taking care of yourself it is pure catnip. When your wife sees others find value in you, it changes her feelings.

[Ready2Change]

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I paraphrased:

Wait for her to contact you, if she doesn't, you have your answer - she has to know she CAN approach and contact you. Continue being very cautious afterward, letting her take the burden of initiating contact and the burden of proof of her intentions...you'll discovery if her intentions are real.

[Ready2Change]

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My W also likes to claim that 50/50 placement will be too hard on the kids and she knows this because she has read so much on the topic. Well, our child mediator put her in her place on that claim saying, "Well, I don't know what you have read, but I am pretty up on the new literature and go to all kinds of conferences and the current thinking is that equal placement is best." It would be different if you were a neglectful father, like your W appear to be as a mother. You have spent so much time with your kids and have done so much for them that I could argue YOU should have primary placement. DO NOT accept anything less than 50%.

[Ready2Change]

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"I have decided that I am moving back into our home. If you are not happy living with me,you will be the one to leave. I am willing to stay and work on the marriage but if you are not, you should go. I have some decisions to make about our marriage, too."

So what if she gets angry? Don't be afraid of her anger. It's far better than her apathy! My H stood up to my decision to leave and it was the BEST thing he could have done for me. It let me see his strength, his resolve to do what was best for him and our family, and he earned my respect. I came home.

If he would have sat back as I see you are doing, I would have concluded nothing had or would change and I would have stayed gone.

[Ready2Change]

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open your mind,

listen,

validate her feelings (don't have to agree),

beware of the mind reading (both parties),

When in doubt say nothing, if pressed say "I'm thinking"

[Ready2Change]

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...She was going to go out with the guy and I got mad and ...We both raced up the stairs and...car keys...

I would have offered her the keys,
told her "have fun tonight, when you get back, all of your stuff will be out in the driveway in boxes, you might as well move out and live with him. If you're willing to openly cheat on your husband, I think you're ready to live on your own."

You don't get into shoving matches, pushing each other, clawing, grabbing, "tripping", and whatever else you ended up doing. You're not in grade 2, I'm assuming you can act like an adult. I don't care how your wife acted, yes she's floopy, yes she's a fruitcake, but you are NOT her, you are you, you can control what you do, you can control your actions.

[Ready2Change]

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If women are truly prisoners of their feelings, and if their feelings are utterly dependent on the actions of their husband, then life marriage is a flawed concept, and we should stop pretending it isn't.

Not it at all. Just as a dog uses his sense of smell as their primary input. Women use their feeling as theirs. It's not the end all and be all. It's what they use first, you need to be aware and how it effects the dynamics. Women aren't dependent on their husbands they want to partner with them, they want their partner to see them for who they are.

Men like things stable. It means things are working the way we planned. Woman want things more interesting - nagging, drama, testing - they want some challenge, shake things up. They want to see some action from their man. It's a way to see if you can "handle it." They want the security plus the ability to handle a crisis when needed. The "testing" is not intentional or planned it is intuitive to how they are.

The testing is way for them to feel secure. They know when they get emotional it calls us to action. Make sure you are addressing the issue and not the emotion. This is when being a cat whisperer helps. I can't use the same tools as I would communicating with a man. Men lead with logic. You have to understand her thinking behind the emotion and watch her actions to get the message. Drives us dogs nuts. When your woman feels understood it makes all the difference - it's what they want.

Try it out. It is amazing to watch it work. Look here on the site, when a male DB posts to woman and has empathy and validates the woman, she is very receptive. Give her a direct 2x4 and watch the response. Same message different delivery. It works the same when calling them out on CB, they love it because you see them and are standing up to their feelings and addressing the issue. (your approach is a little more direct here.)

You are not responsible for her feelings, she doesn't want that. She wants you responsible for the family, the marriage, taking care of yourself, loving her and being a man.

[Ready2Change]

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Man this is going to be sooo hard!!

There you go, following your feelings again,
assuming things are going to be "sooo hard!!"

You fault your wife for following her feelings and having an affair and all the crap that followed,
but you continue to follow your feelings in how you should deal with this situation instead of setting up a plan and following it regardless of your feelings.

Sounds like a double standard to me.

She's wrong for following her feelings.
But you follow your feelings and it's ok?

This is not going to be "sooo hard!!",
you only "feel" it is,
maybe you should start looking at the big picture,
everything will be ok, everything will turn out the way it's supposed to turn out.

There are two kinds of people (well actually there's a $hitload more types of people but humor me in my example),

1. those who can see the goal without being obscured or thrown off by the obstacles that may come up along the way to achieving that goal; they are also usually positive, optimistic, very attractive type people

2. then there are those who can't see the goal because all they see are the obstacles along the way and they're just afraid and negative and pessimistic, not very attractive either

Which one are you?

I will say # 2 for you.

You can change this, this is under your control.
The only thing stopping you is you.

[Ready2Change]

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I have no interest in a relationship with any man but my husband right now...who of course wants NOTHING to do with me.

And do you KNOW why you do not want anyone but your H?

Listen, let's say that day he met you at the car had played out differently. If you had gone in to find your H in tears and torn up about what he had found on the computer.....and begged you to stop all of that and commit to the M....yada, yada.......what do you think you would have done?

Doesn't matter, but here's the thing sweetie, if your H had pursued you it would have turned you off cold as a fish. You probably won't believe me but all you have to do is read all the LBH's posts of the WAW in A's and see how the W would react when the H would beg, plead, cling, etc.

I used to think I would want to see or hear my H do that just one time......just pursue me once. Well, I did--and it nearly made me sick to stay in the same room! The reason you are wanting your H so badly is b/c he did just exactly what Gucci tells newcomers that's been LB or cheated on. Suddenly, you can think of nothing else but the man you can't have. Works every time! A little thing called human nature.

[Ready2Change]

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- asking if there might still be hope?
You still don't get it, moving on with your life and letting go of the need for "hope" is what will get you where you need to be.

You are so attached it's not even funny.

Why do you need to see a lawyer about pressing charges on her?
She went to the cops and filed a domestic assault charge on you,
you do the same, if you don't, it's because you're afraid of the consequences, she apparently wasn't afraid - she's confident enough to do it, why can't you man up and do the same thing? I don't understand, it's because you're afraid of losing her, I get it but you don't get that she isn't afraid of losing you and it's that mentality that keeps you stuck to her, if you could apply that same mindset to her, you would get similar results.

- file domestic assault charges against her, if she did all that you say she did, you'll have no problems filing the charge against her
- if she's txting her boyfriend on a cell phone that you pay for, cancel the contract or take the phone from her and cancel it
- as for the finances, she needs to get real about how things will be working, you don't have to pay for things that you don't want to pay for, ie. her going out with the other guy, a cell phone used to contact him with, etc.
- when she says that she has rights, you agree with her, you tell her "I know you have rights, but you make it sound like I don't have rights, I do have rights, and I won't let you walk all over me anymore, you don't have that right anymore"
- as far as custody of your kid(s), so what if she's been the primary caregiver all this time, when you split up, things will change, that is one of them, you keep assuming that every good thing will happen to her because of this and every bad thing will happen to you, you need to snap out of that funk of yours, it's friggen depressing (she will get this, and she will get that, blah, blah, blah), you sound like a broken record
- you can file for joint custody, fathers are getting joint custody, especially when they pursue it and want it and can show that they're good fathers, why do you assume that you can't? Are you a horrible father? If you u want joint custody, you can get it, you don't have to settle for what she gives you, who told you that you had to?

You will sell your house or move out of your apartment and get your own place to live for you and your kids, she will have to do the same. If you think you will be expected to pay for her entire living expenses as well as your own, you're mistaken.

Screw that head on straight and start thinking clearly and stop feeling so bad for yourself and stop feeling so bad about yourself. Things aren't as bad as they seem.

And for god's sake, stop hanging on to hope like you're going to die tomorrow or something. It's not attractive, it's repulsive, it probably has the same effect on your wife.

Stand up for yourself, no more bs,
this is how life is going to go for you now,
if she doesn't want to be with you anymore, great, show her the door and wish her a good life, if she wants to be with another man, great, show her the door and wish her a good life, and get yourself a new girl who appreciates you better than this one obviously does.

[Ready2Change]

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...We had sex with each other 2 nights ago and it was fantastic, but she now wants to talk about it which probably means she doesn't want to do that anymore due to the confusion she feels from it (until the next time she gets extremely horny and drunk...)

This is what I would do,
tell her
"Wife we need to talk,
what happened the other night can't happen ever again,
it was definitely the wrong thing to do, I haven't told you but I've been seeing someone lately and I don't want her to know that I'm still having sex with my wife. Nothing against you personally, the sex was ok but it just messes up my mind especially when I've decided it's time for me to be with someone else. I hope you understand so that we won't be doing that again."

If she gets angry and tries to start an argument, leave the room and tell her you've said your peace and don't want to discuss it. It took you a while to accept that you guys were getting a divorce and you don't want to backslide on the new found positive momentum in your life.

If she doesn't get angry, no worries, you have stopped the discussion, you led it where you wanted to go, instead of you being rejected by her which is what she would have discussed with you (99.9% guaranteed of that), something like "I don't want you to confuse what we did the other night and give you false hope, I still want to get a divorce, blah, blah, blah"

And then you continue living your merry little life,
you go out on certain evenings, you get a life,
some nights you go out, looking really good like you're going out on a date (hint, hint, going out on a few real dates won't kill you).

You let her go.
You've decided that this is the best thing.
You're no longer attracted to her that way.
You've moving on.
You're making it appear as if you're the one letting her go and not the other way around.

Or....

You continue doing what you're doing because we all know that you've been extremely successful so far ;-)

[Ready2Change]

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I got to the game a little late, as usual, because of my work schedule and W was sitting with the kids and told me, "Sorry it's too crowded. You'll have to find somewhere else to sit."

That's CB.

"Wife, you don't have to like me. Next time we attend a b-ball game as a family I want the courtesy of you saving a seat for me. If you don't I will take the kids and we will sit somewhere else together and you can join us if you like."

Don't ever get used to people treating you this way. If you don't think you are worth it nobody else will.

[Ready2Change]

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...I'd love to read an update on your sitch...Everyone is so similar that they tend to bleed together if you don't keep them fresh in your mind.

[Ready2Change]

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Help her pack, file for D and ask for exclusive use of the house. Don't tell her what you are going to do. I wish I had done that, would have made my life the last 5 months much simpler.

[Ready2Change]

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Hi Deployed...(sigh). I've been on this site now since I found it in 7/06. My posting has diminished tremendously but I still carry a thread. It's still painful, even to me, to read these new posts. In fact, I stopped looking up new posts only because they can open old wounds.

However.....

Since this is all new, my advice is to try and give this a certain amount of time and effort to save your marriage. The best way to do this is straight forward:
1) Do NOT discuss the marriage and issues per se with your wife. You will only hear things you don't want to hear
2) Do NOT beg her..plead with her...try and sell her on the marriage or sell her on a 'new you'. You'll push her away
3) Start reading and working on yourself. Try 'For Men Only', Dr. Grey's Venous and Mars: Starting Over.' 'The Five Love Languages'.
4) Honestly, the best way to win this, which is stacked against us all, is to accept the marriage as over, and grieve the loss. By doing so, you give her space, leave her alone, focus on yourself and THIS causes change that MAY draw them back. The only M's I've seen saved here are those that 'drop the rope'.

Honestly, this forum is a double edge sword. The good edge is that you will receive a great deal of support. You'll get great recommendations on books to read, websites to go to, etc.

The bad edge is that this site will ALSO keep you holding on forever, waiting, hoping, etc and ofttimes this leads to enabling her behavior. You'll be kept in a state of 'hope for reconciliation' which is the ultimate form of denial here. Read Gray's description of this.

I was where you were once. The best I can tell you is hold your head high. Give this a shot but give yourself a timeline. Realize that you are NOT a victim. The greatest gift you have is that you were able to look inward and see your faults. The tools you had, perhaps, weren't the best and now is your chance to trade up to better tools.

Walk a line between hope and reality:
1) Realize that everyone should try and save their marriage
2) Understand that when a woman separates, the majority of the time there is a man lurking in the background. IF she said she thought about cheating she probably has and threw this out there as a shot across the bow
3) Understand also that a separation is NOT a positive thing. More than 90% of marriages that separate go on to divorce.

So...although my message may have a negative tone, I am TRULY telling you to do your best to try and save it. In so doing you will become a better man and you can look in the mirror when you get up in the morning and like what you see. However, it takes two to want to save a marriage. After a time, it is YOUR responsibility to NOT let your spirit be destroyed.

Finally, NEVER....EVER....no matter how bad things get.....denigrate the children's mother to them. It will only work against you and it is like stabbing a knife into them.

Stay strong. Don't talk about the marriage/R. Don't beg. Open the cage door if she wants.

Strength and honor.
FIB

[Ready2Change]

We have to deal with so many things we can't control because of these decisions. It is unfortunate, but there is no other way.

[Ready2Change]

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MC doesn't work if both parties are not very willing to save the M.

She can't use the excuse of needing space since you're not there to crowd her. How often do you contact her? Time to stop. Don't text or email except to talk to kids.

To tell you that she has "thought about cheating" is her way of preparing you for the fact that she already has cheated.

I was almost a WAW. I had an EA. Therefore I think from that POV. I believe that a WAW in an A has to suffer the fear of losing something precious to her before it pulls her out of an A. Sometimes that does not happen soon or easy. What is the most precious thing in the world to your W? Before you answer, I want you to know that she has changed from that young girl you M. I doubt you would believe all the ways she has changed since she has become a WAW in her heart. So, don't compare her to how she used to be b/c that will be a waste of energy. You have to deal with how she is now.

Another thing that will help the W cause her to have a change of heart about the M, is when she thinks the H doesn't want her and is doing fine without her. No anger, no screaming matches, no getting even......just let go. Drop the rope. If she thinks that you do not want to be with her and she sees you moving on...happily.....that will get her attention faster than any tactics.

You have three children to consider. What will you do once you retire? Live in the same town? Will you get 50% of custody? Once, those children were the most precious thing to her....but maybe not so much now. Shocking, but it happens. Mine were important to me, but I thought I had spent most of my life for them and I wanted to be happy for once before I died (mental attitude of a WAW). Shows you how the heart/mind can be twisted.

I strongly suggest that you stop contacting her. Make her wonder what you are going to do. When contacting the children, do not tell them anything except you love them and they are going to be okay. Talk positive to them.

You are physically detached and now you will have to work on emotionally detaching. If she bugs you about moving on with the D, I'd tell her she can have her D but not until you get home b/c you have plans. Don't tell her what those plans are. Be mysterious. In the meantime, get your finances secured b/c she'll likely try to wipe you out. Don't warn her, just do it.

This may not sound like DB to you, but that is honestly what I'm trying to help you with.

[Ready2Change]

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Getting to the point where you value yourself more than the situation is the key.

It's hard to get to that point but once you do it feels wonderful. We become attractive again.

Never in my wildest dreams did I think I would be able to withstand the storm my life had become, but I did, I still am, and I will continue to do so.

And that is why you are able to offer hope to others. People who are going through the fire need to see somebody who has been there and survived. Not just survived but come through shining like a beautiful teacup.

[Ready2Change]

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I just find there's a lot of talk about working internally on one's self.

This is fine if there is no obsessive or addictive behavior happening your WS's part..

This is fine...no matter what. I cannot think of a situation that one would not benefit from an increased self-awareness and self-knowledge. Since we know that both parties contribute to the coming apart of a marriage, even if a wayward spouse is in an A, addicted to drugs, or mentally ill ~~~ working on oneself will only benefit the sitch overall.

[Ready2Change]

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The first thing is for you to consult with a lawyer and find out what your rights are. I almost gave up everything until I saw a lawyer and he straightened out my ignorance of the law.

I can't stress this enough. In my state, leaving the marital residence does hurt any attempt at custody and my lawyer told me to stay put no matter what. I'm not sure where you live or what the laws say.

That's what you need a lawyer for. They usually give you a free consultation so search for the best one you can get. Mine is costing me, but I'm getting what I pay for and he's top notch.

I'm not sure if she can just take the kids just like that. I doubt she can, but again, you need to see a lawyer about it.

I got the same spiel about not being considerate, blah, blah, blah...as if she was just entitled to the house and the kids.

Get a lawyer! Go talk to lawyers all over your area, ask every single one of them what lawyer they would hire if they were going to divorce, and talk to those as well. You need legal help NOW! Do not let her get those kids out of the house without being legally told she can, and DO NOT move out yourself.

[Ready2Change]

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To me, based on my own personal experience and the experiences of a few others, there are two equally fatal mistakes that people can make when their marriage is in a serious crisis (as in basically over):

1. Adopt a fatalistic approach and say, "This is done, and it will never change, and everything happens for a reason, and this is so over and broken it can never be repaired no matter what".

2. Adopt a "bo peep" attitude of denial: "They really love me, but they are lost in a fog, and that's why they are divorcing me and screwing other people, but someday the fog will lift", and unfortunately, when you tell people there may be hope and that the future isn't written yet, they are likely to hear it as "just go into denial, and everything will be OK. After all, an alien took over my spouse, and now they are lost in a fog", but all I have to do is wait and act as if everything will be OK, and it will be.

For me, and this is personal, there was no real detaching really happening until I acknowledged the reality that my wife just didn't love me, and then I stopped waiting for something to change, stopped trying to manipulate the outcome of any of our rare interactions.

That's when it hit me that I am going to be OK, and her problems weren't my problems, and that's when I was able to let go so that it was up to her what to do, and you know what?

She decided to win me over. Who'd a thunk it, eh?

[Ready2Change]

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The other element is the fact (at least according to Harville Hendrix) that most relationship problems are actually based on each partner's individual issues. This is why, I believe, that the DB tack of working on oneself first is an effective one.

That's one of the reasons calling your spouse out on CB is such a great 180. It shows you have detached a little to change your perspective and see your role and how your spouse is behaving in unacceptable ways. It means you are loving yourself (doing the work). You can't give away what you don't have, so until you love yourself you won't be able to share it.

Women and men know when they are out of line. I believe it is very loving to set and respect boundaries. "I respect the fact that you can do whatever you want but if you want to be in a marriage with me then you can't behave that way." Your spouse does something that goes against your values, beliefs and morals it is your responsibility to bring it up in a non-confrontational manner.

Not having the tools to do this is one of the reasons couples end up here. Once a LBS stands up for himself they are modeling healthy relationship skills and leading. Too many people regard it as - tough, manning up, setting ultimatums where once crossed there is no coming back, macho, harsh etc. It's wise, healthy, necessary, appropriate and loving.

It's one of the things you need to learn to handle because it will present itself again in most relationships. I have a issue with your behavior not you as a person. Looking inward you need to look at why you won't say something if it is bothering you.

[Ready2Change]

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I think maybe I should share this with you as it was shared with me:

Now there are two kinds of divorce that happen, sort of at the same time. One is the legal divorce, and the other one is the emotional divorce.

We get the two confused.

We think we're going to stop the emotional divorce by stopping the legal divorce. The more you try to stop the legal side of divorce, the more rebellious he or she feels.

The more you use pressure, the less they see your inner beauty and your charm.

Everybody thinks, professionals and non-professionals alike, they say to have a happy marriage or a happy relationship, you have to work at it.

But I say that it's the working that makes it not work.

When you criticize, you're working at improving your mate.

When you complain to your lover, you're working at improving them.

When you argue, you're working at improving them.

When you try to reason with them.

When you tell them how much you love them.

Both when you're reasoning and when you're telling them how much you love them, you are trying to change them. You are working at changing them. And it's that working at changing them, that is the only problem.

Proof? You want proof?

Stop all of that, and watch the relationship get better.

Stop all of that working. Allow and accept, one hundred percent, whatever your mate thinks, feels, or does is perfectly okay.

It's perfectly okay.

And watch them improve themselves.

Their negative feelings towards you will weaken rapidly, because their negative feeling needs something in you to fight with. And when you sincerely see what's on their side, when you sincerely agree with them, and when you lovingly and sincerely go one hundred percent totally, instantly, and happily your mate's way, when you do that there's nothing for their negative feeling to build on.

You have put the white flag up.

You've thrown your gun down.

That forces them to do the same thing. They cannot shoot you when you have no gun. When you're not defending yourself, THEY want to defend you.

It's not normal to not defend yourself, but it is healthy.

Agree with them.

Do not disagree at all.

It's not to your advantage.
....Her negative or his negative attitudes towards you are being supported by you communicating what you want.

Every time you say to them, "But, I love you," you are saying, "but I want something different than what you want. You want to pull away, but I want you to come closer. I don't really care what you want. It's what I want that's important."

Lots of times men tell their wives, "I've changed. I've changed. Let's get back together. I've changed."

I tell the husbands that "Every time you say, 'I've changed,' you're communicating to her that you have not changed."

"Really? Why is that? How is that? I don't understand that."

"Of course, you don't understand. But what's your motivation? Why are you telling him or her how you've changed? What's your purpose? Isn't it to get your way?"

"Yeah, I want her back."

"That's your way. It's not her way, right now. She said she may consider it later, maybe, but not right now. And every time you say, 'I've changed,' you're saying, 'Give me my way! Give me my way! Give me my way! What I want is more important than what you want. I don't give a hoot what you want."

And subconsciously, she says, "He hasn't changed. He's still the neurotic, selfish, pressuring guy he always was. There's no way I'm going to go back to him, or feel positive to him as long as he is this way."

You been at this 4 months. Is that long enough?

I don't know. And no one here knows Pin. You have 13 years with this woman.

It is up to you.

Stop all of that working. Allow and accept, one hundred percent, whatever your mate thinks, feels, or does is perfectly okay.

It's perfectly okay.

Yep agree with her. "This marriage isn't working for me either. Us in the same house isn't working for me. I don't feel it either. I have been wrong trying to get you to love me, that was selfish of me. I want you to be happy, I want myself to be happy and I want the girls to see and feel love in their home. That's why I have decided_____________________.
"

You wife needs to feel you walking away not a fallback and comfortable position. if you can't do it in the same house then make sure you have everything checked off legally, financially, with he girls and you are squared away emotionally. Separation isn't the end.

[Ready2Change]

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I read a study some 20 years ago that validated my personal experience, so perhaps it bears repeating. When asked what men & women most valued in a spouse, men reported "attractiveness and peace in the home" (I read that as "decent sex/looks good, and no nagging"). Women reported "Fidelity and security". To me, "fidelity" meant "don't cheat" and "Security" meant I want to feel safe. It's more than finances, but it included financial security too, and I have no shame in that at all. I have worked hard.

[Ready2Change]

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Good thoughts on who owns the problem:

I think as much as it sucks I am going to have to just not go. If I am there I am the scrooge to her ruining the fun. I dunno I got to think on it.

As long as you act upbeat and have fun with your son and do not use that event to try to warm-up to your W, then have a great time. Be nice to her but don't treat her the way you would have in the past "as your W" and let her begin to see how things as a S/D couple will go. Just be nice as if she was one suppose to be a blind date--who turned out to be your cousin. You wouldn't romance your cousin or smother her with attention. You'd be getting back to your son.

If she has a problem with that, well then....that her problem, not yours. You will be seeing how often you will face that same bridge.

After that you've been fun at the party, and has shown your son a wonderful time......if she has a problem with that, well then that is her problem, not yours.

[Ready2Change]

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[quote]"Wow, that's a big curveball, (Wife). I'm not sure how I feel about that right now.I need to think about that. And tonight is not good for me at all -- I already have plans. Let me sleep on this, and we'll talk in the next couple of days. I won't do anything legally before then, but I just need to really think about what you've said, because I'm just not sure anymore."

Let her know your thinking not feeling thru this.

[Ready2Change]

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People lose respect and attraction for you when they can treat you poorly and violate your principles, values, beliefs and morals and you do nothing. It's not noble, honorable, strong, healthy or wise.

When you step back (detach) and look at your sitch like you are looking in a fishbowl it helps you see your role in the current environment. When all the feedback tells you that you appear a certain way and more importantly how you appear to your WAS then the wise men takes the feedback and discerns the validity of it with a open mind. Having empathy and compassion means you can put yourself in the shoes of your spouse and see yourself. I want my wife to see me as attractive, wise, in control and taking care of business. I do have control over that because I have learned what women want and how to give it to them.

A women can't feel safe with a man who will let a woman treat him badly and not do anything. She will lose respect and this leads to a lose of love. It's amazing what happens when you set boundaries and call people out on CB. Just try it and follow their actions.

[Ready2Change]

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Listen to what she is telling you:

"Do you have any idea what it is like to feel like you are absolutely everything to someone? It's suffocating. I've tried (many times) to express to you how hard it is for me to discern how I really feel from how I (and you) think I should feel. mindreading I can't see the forest for the trees. It's like you just wanted is that what you wanted or intended? to keep plowing ahead through a snowbank that is completely frozen and all you're doing is packing the snow harder. PRESSURE Sometimes you have to give it time to thaw before you can start again." What does that mean to her?

She is giving you what you want. She is dying for you to see it. (not mind reading - it's the cat whisperer in me)

[Ready2Change]

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I have boundaries in all of my relationships - marriage, parent, son, professional, coaching, and teaching. Doesn't make them parental.

It's not controlling to say to someone your behavior is causing problems and if it doesn't change it will effect our relationship. I am not trying to change them, it's their choice how they behave.

The added benefit as a man is that women really respect you and are attracted to men who know who they are. She wants to know what you think and believe not what you need. A woman doesn't want someone else who has needs she is supposed to take care of. Women are keenly aware of when they are behaving badly. They love a strong man who can call them out on it. Ask around and watch other relationships.

[Ready2Change]

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she can say a lot in a short time.

(Weak smile). Yah. My H has mentioned similar things about me. It's NOT that you're not the 'sharpest knife in the drawer.' You're just fine. I think that a lot of us women do this because talking is how we process what we're thinking and feeling. Often I'm not sure of my own feelings and thoughts until I can talk them out with my H or a friend.

It was the fact that she was really clear in what she was saying, and I could actually understand her....

I think that you could really use this fact in future discussions with her. When you feel yourself wanting to invalidate, rather than giving in to it, ASK her if she could clarify what she's saying. Let her know that you're not understanding her but that you really want to (which, incidentally is a very validating thing to say!) That might help get you both into a more compassionate place so that you CAN validate and keep the conversation moving forward.

PS - That brings me back to the point above - if you're the one who's asking her to clarify what she's saying, that will help her out to b/c it will help her sort out what she's thinking and feeling. It's very connecting for a woman, to feel that assistance coming from her H.

[Ready2Change]

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I hope every person reading this understands why Robx recommends the words below, why it is important to say them with conviction and in person, and the reasons why it works:

"Wife I've listened to you, I'm thinking separation is a good idea and moving apart and living separately is a good idea but I've changed my mind, I like our home, I want you to move out, it seems only fair considering the fact that you've been unhappy and wanted out for so long, I won't hold you back, I'll help you pack and move. I've made up my mind, this is what I want, I want you to leave."

My two cents, never move out when a spouse wants out of the marriage, if she wants out so badly, let her find her own way, all you're doing now is enabling her at your expense, what goal does that serve, what benefit is achieved by this?

You want to GAL, great, do it while living in your own home.

Bro, in my own sitch, my wife asked me to move out and I did it, hoping that she would see how dedicated I was to her and our relationship/marriage - it did not help anything. In fact once I moved out, she became horrible and increasingly disrespectful to me, however she is now, expect her to be several times worse towards you as she gets used to a great life with out you.

When did my situation change?
When I moved back home.
When I said enough is enough.
When I told her that if she wants out of this marriage so much, that she can move out, she can file for divorce and I will sign any divorce or separation document she throws in front of me because I was tired of the whole situation and wanted it to be over soon. I then proceed to box her stuff up, loaded up her van and sent her to live with her parents. I then filed for joint custody of our children and i got it. I then limited my interactions with her, while living in MY OWN HOME with my children. I found my friends again, I got involved in sports, the gym, my work, my children, you name it, I was too busy.

As for her, having to fend for herself and take care of herself without me being there to be her safe cushion to fall on and rely on was the wake up call. She wanted out so badly, I showed her the door literally, I gave up, I assumed it was over, I stopped caring, what finally stuck in my head was that I was putting her on a pedestal, thinking that if I continued to show her I would give her the world if she only gave me a chance that it was the wrong thing to do. You need to let go of someone who doesn't value you or the relationship they have with you, not feed them, clothe them, house them and make agreements not to date others, blah, blah, blah.

You drop the rope, cut the rope, throw the rope out the goddamn window and assume married life is over and move on, that is what works more times than any other method here.

Guaranteed?

No.

But nothing is guaranteed.

Would I employ the same method again instead of wasting time doing other things?

You KNOW it!

Do what works, not what you feel you should do because you think you are listening to her.

You really want to listen to her?
"Wife I've listened to you, I'm thinking separation is a good idea and moving apart and living separately is a good idea but I've changed my mind, I like our home, I want you to move out, it seems only fair considering the fact that you've been unhappy and wanted out for so long, I won't hold you back, I'll help you pack and move. I've made up my mind, this is what I want, I want you to leave."


Regardless of her reaction and what she says,
she will get it, she will finally see that you understand, not only that, she'll fight moving out more times than not, because in her mind, the idea will be triggered that you've finally realized your personal value, and it's important that this concept is communicated. Right now you're communicating that you have no value and you should be the one to move out and make everyone else happy. Wrong move. You should have the "awakening", you should be the one to realize that you shouldn't move out if you're not the one asking for a divorce and uttering crap like "I can't love you the way a wife should love a husband" or "I love you but I'm not in love with you" or "us getting married wasn't a good decision", etc.

Just because they follow their script, doesn't mean you have to follow their script and listen to what they want you to do. Listen to them by doing what you want to do which includes wanting out of the relationship as well if they want out so badly, you want out even more.

Just my 0.02 cents but I'm telling you,
it worked for me and a few others that had the balls to implement a plan that was counter-intuitive and didn't feel like the right thing to do originally, but now looking back, it is something I would recommend to anyone in the same situation.

Those who will say this solution doesn't apply to everyone and you can't assume that "one size fits all", haven't actually tried it and confirmed this.

[Ready2Change]

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Jumping through hoops and "changing" to please his wife will never work.

It's a hard concept to understand.

Plus, saying "I love you but I'm not in love with you" usually means that "I care for you but I'm not excited about you anymore especially since I've had my eye on someone else although you don't know about them yet"

Changing to get a spouse back doesn't work.
It's transparent.
Why are you changing now?
Is it really to improve yourself or is it to possibly get your spouse back?

It doesn't work.

Read every thread on this forum,
how many spouses: men or women,
have tried to change everything they could and met up with similar results, the WAS's don't respond to change by a LBS when the WAS has decided they want out of the relationship.

Why should they respond to change now?

It's too late.

It's insulting to the WAS.

If a LBS can change, why didn't they change when they had the chance, when the relationship was still intact?

In fact, if anything, changing in hopes of getting your spouse to come back again insults the WAS, it makes them angrier, resulting in a stronger attitude to move on further away.

You may not like reading this or understanding it,
but it is reality, you can't fight reality,
reality is... reality, it is what it is.

Accept reality, disregard fantasy,
do what works, stop doing what doesn't work.

[Ready2Change]

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Why hold onto someone who doesn't want to be married. Take all the pressure off them and give them what they want - standing by, waiting for them to change, holding onto your vows, threatening them etc - it's all pressure. Put yourself in their shoes, what does it look like?

If they are acting single, running around, and not contributing to the family then be honest, it's not a marriage. There is something you can do - agree with them, give them what they want, set them free, drop the rope, fully detach, release them from the cage. You are kidding yourself if you think waiting for them is going to work, it's not attractive. To get here you need to understand why this works.

I totally believe in the sacrament of marriage. I believe it is a holy convenant ordained by God. With a convenant comes special blessings and graces. A covenant also comes with guidelines of behavior to be part of the convenant. The Garden of Eden, God's covenant with his people and the Prodigal Son are good examples of this. I will always love my wife, the graces and blessings we share will depend on how well we respect and nurture our covenant. There will always be the bond but not always the connection. I will also have the power to forgive her and welcome her back but not by me losing myself in the process.

I also believe in the dynamics of human behavior and the influence you can have on someone else by your actions. Attraction and love work differently between men and women. Mens and womens needs and wants are different. How we communicate, process and feel is different. Then lastly you must understand your beloved and what their fears, desires, wants and ambitions are.

You can set them free and love them at the same time. IMO it is the most loving thing you can do is to let them choose what they want. Setting then free = no pressure. It's selfish to try and get them to see your POV and do what you want. They have made their intentions clear, listen to what they are telling you.

I did not arrive at this belief until I thought thru it. I had read it, seen it here and heard it before. This isn't unique or new advice. I put myself in both sets of shoes the LBS and the WAS and thought thru how would I react.

Below is a quote from James Dobson who says it better than I. He is very pro-marriage.

Get counseling before giving ultimatum to straying spouse
By James Dobson
Published August 2, 2007


QUESTION: My wife has been involved in an affair with her boss for six months. I’ve known about it from the beginning, but just haven’t been able to confront her. Melanie acts like she doesn’t love me anyway. If I give her an ultimatum I could lose her completely. Can you assure me that won’t happen? Have you ever offered the “love must be tough” advice and had it backfire, ending in divorce?

DR. DOBSON: Yes, I have, and I certainly understand your caution. I wish I could guarantee how Melanie will react to a firmer approach. Unfortunately, life offers few certainties, even when all the probabilities point in one direction. Sometimes well-conditioned athletes drop dead from heart attacks. Some outstanding parents raise children who rebel and become drug addicts. Some of the most intelligent, cautious businessmen foolishly bankrupt themselves. Life is like that.

Things happen every day that shouldn’t have occurred. Nevertheless, we should go with the best information available to us. I saw a sign that said, “The fastest horses don’t always win, but you should still bet on them.” Even as a nongambler, that makes sense to me.

Having offered that disclaimer, let me say that there is nothing risky about treating oneself with greater respect, exhibiting confidence and poise, pulling backward and releasing the door on the romantic trap.

The positive benefits of that approach are often immediate and dramatic. Self-respect expressed in a loving way virtually never fails to have a salutary effect on a drifting lover, unless there is not the tiniest spark left to fan. Thus, in instances when opening the cage door results in a spouse’s sudden departure, the relationship was over already. I’m reminded of the proverb that says, “If you love something, set it free. If it comes back to you, it’s yours. If it doesn’t come back, it never was yours in the first place.” There is a great truth in that, and it applies to your relationship with your wife.

Now, obviously, it is risky to precipitate a period of crisis. When explosive individuals are involved in mid-life turmoil or a passionate fling with a new lover, great tact and wisdom are required to know when and how to respond. That’s why professional counsel is vital before, during, and after the confrontation. It would be unthinkable of me to recommend that victims of affairs indiscriminately pose ultimatums with 24-hour deadlines, or that they push an independent partner in a corner. Great caution is needed in such delicate conflicts.

In short, I suggest that you seek the assistance of a competent counselor who can help you deal with the problem of Melanie’s affair.

[Ready2Change]

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I've thought long and hard about why I wanted to move out. Had a lot of convos with tons of people, on the boards, friends, family, etc. And realized that it was yet another tactic, a passive aggressive tactic to change how my wife felt. That of COURSE she would miss me. Even though I would be paying for her house, her expenses, doing most of the parenting, all while trying to live an ascetic monk life.

And then I realized that I had been holding onto the rope sooo hard. I had even forgotten why I was holding on.

So yesterday I came home for lunch, and told my wife simply that "I wasn't leaving my home. You do what you need to do, but this is my home, and I'm not leaving it."

She asked me if she had done anything to make me feel unwelcome in the house (WTH???), and I said "no, I just like my home, and I want to stay here."

She said she didn't believe me, that it must have been something she said. I said no, you do what you need to do.

And then I left. No more R talks.

When I came home from work, she was a bit cool, but spoke during dinner. After putting the girls to bed, I went to read in bed (have a cold coming on) and watch the World Series. W never came to bed, slept on the sofa.

Around 6am she came to bed without a word. I got up an hour later, dressed, said goodbye to my daughters, and told W to have a good day.

So to all my fellow Pinheads, before you make any big decisions, really think about your motivations. It's hard, we're in our own fog, but really think and measure your thoughts and feelings.

[Ready2Change]

Lance,

Just to be clear. I didn't stay as any form of 'standing' or anything like that. I just like my house. It is my home, has my stuff in it, my daughters live here.

My wife can do what she wants, within respectable limits. She's free to go, our house has three doors she can choose from.

Those are the best reasons, don't let anyone tell you different.

Your wife can do what ever she wants,
even if that means she wants out of the marriage,
just like you can do what you want to do which means stopping doing things to impress or get her to change her mind, that never works.

I'm glad you finally realized this.

Have a great weekend bro!

[Ready2Change]

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According to her they have a perfect relationship. They dont fight, never discuss their feelings or the future. According to her it is just day by day, no committment, no stress of day to day life. Well go figure, I have the kids, the mortgage and the day to day stress that comes with that responsibility

That is the proof of her fantasy world. To her, "that" is a perfect R, but in the real world people have responsibilities and they want to make plans for a future.....and if there is going to be a future together, then a committment is usually in order. To her, marriage was a picture of day to day stress. It was her reality she wanted to run away from, not necessarily you & family. She puts M, responsibilities, family, stress, job, etc. all in one picture. OM was her "escape". They don't talk about anything b/c he isn't mature minded enough and he just wants sex anyway......nothing more or less. He would duck tail and run the minute he had to be responsible for all those kids!

If you will stick to your guns about no further talk with her UNTIL she leaves OM and has FULLY broken all contact with him.....and is WILLING to be transparent with her future contacts with any/all FRIENDS.......then you may stand a shot. However, if you compromise any of this, then I think she'll backslide. Make her want you bad! Make her work to get you back.

[Ready2Change]

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Make sure you are DOCUMENTING everything, esp. the financial stuff. I don't think any one incident will make much of a difference, but if there's a pattern to it, it should help.

[Ready2Change]

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"you never take me out to dinner!" really translates to "you never spend time with me anymore." you're focused on the fancy/expensive restaurant when really, it's not about the fancy restaurant. it's about spending time together and giving her your undivided attention. you'd score big points by taking her for a drive and having great conversation in the car or a walk on the beach. it has nothing to do with going out for dinner and everything to do with spending quality time together.

[Ready2Change]

Going night after night without sleep is dangerous. Be sure you tell your doctor everything. I understand about not wanting to rely upon meds, but sometime we have to do it. Doesn't mean you'll always have to take it, but for now the sleep and avoiding panic attacks is important.

I'm so glad you are sticking with the board. You are gaining a good group of supporters. Having found these friends on the DB board is a gift. I feel like some are old friends and don't know where I might have been without them. Some day you will paying it forward & helping newcomers. Until then, you soak up all the support & love that you can get, b/c it does help the healing process.

[Ready2Change]

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Listen to my words here, a woman cannot be in love with a man she doesn't respect. That is how she is wired! You must have her respect FIRST. You won't have her respect until you respect yourself, so that is where you need to start.

About the children.....remember you are being a role model....You are showing her what a M looks like. Your children need to see a father who leads his family in high moral conduct. They need to see a father who is confident and who will protect them. I'm sure they must be scared right now. They need your support and comfort b/c they don't understand why their parents have gone crazy. They have to have a dad who is strong for them.

[Ready2Change]

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I captured this from a member on this board the last time i successfully DB'd:

....I thought it would be fitting to share what I have learned during the process, and reiterate some key elements of Michelle’s program that I found critical...I should point out that my situation may be different than some. For one, there was not another man in the picture and my wife remained celibate during our separation as did I. The breakdown of my marriage stemmed from her anger and hurt that resulted mostly from my behavior. Biggies included: 1) an addiction to online pornography, 2) working too much, 3) partying too much and 4) not meeting her emotional needs....Regardless, below are the most important things I learned and applied from DBing:

1. Buy Divorce Busting and the books and read them five times, and them read five more times.

2. Give her space and don’t pressure: This - my friends - is numero uno. If you cannot do this, you WILL surely end your marriage or at minimum prolong emotional and physical distance between you and your spouse indefinitely. Don’t believe me? Then keep doing it and see what happens....So, for God’s sake people, IF YOU WANT HER BACK LEAVE HER ALONE. She is driving this train, and you have to accept that.

3. When you are together ALWAYS AGREE, keep your mouth shut and LISTEN intently to every word she says: When you do get chance to talk to her or spend time with her – and you will – ALWAYS try your hardest to be upbeat, positive, friendly, considerate and DON’T get angry or talk about your feelings and what YOU WANT. Stay positive and don’t bring up the relationship unless she does, and when she does, keep your trap shut and listen to everything she says. Want to stay out of trouble? Listen. Want to get back in the house? Listen. Want to have a long loving relationship? Listen. My God, listen till the blood drips from your ears; listen till you want to scream out a solution; listen until she has nothing left to say and when she’s done, shut up and listen some more. Women are the caregivers and if you want her to give, you’d better do some caring. Not only should you listen, but when you do speak, always AGREE. Validate what she says, and don’t argue.

For example, “you were a complete jerk, you hurt me, you never spent time with our family, you’re selfish, you have two heads, the moon is made of chocolate etc etc…” I don’t care what she says, just say…”You’re right…I was a jerk, I am sorry and I screwed up…and your right the moon is made of chocolate and I have two heads. If you want me to leave, I understand, your right, maybe it would never work, but I do love you and I’ll always be here for you and the kids if you need anything.”

It works people. When she starts talking about your failures and why the marriage was so horrible, much of which is probably true, she is waiting for you to react in anger, hurt, frustration, and let you say horrible things to her, blame her for everything and storm out of the house because this is the type of behavior that validates her thoughts, expectations and rationalizations for walking away. Such behavior will make her feel better. When you DON’T act like this, it will throw her for a loop and she will be completely bewildered. Try it. But you have to be consistent. As aside, this doesn’t mean you should be a doormat. This simply means listening and validating her feelings, thoughts and emotions regarding you, her and the marriage. It does not mean that you have to accept ridiculous requests regarding things such as financial or property issues. If these come up, respectfully and calmly disagree. In fact, you can use them to buy time. For example, you might say: “that is not acceptable to me at this point, and it is something we can negotiate or work out in a few weeks, but I am sure we can find an amiable middle ground. I don’t want you and the kids to be a bad position. Remember I am your best friend regardless of what happens.”

4. Change (do the 180s) and don’t tell her you have or are changing: Now this one is actually as important as the first one because if don’t make some changes, then you will be back in the same boat soon enough. Also, the changes will make you happier. In my case, I had to do some serious soul searching and self analyzing that included counseling and joining a support group for sexual addiction (i.e., online pornography). Both have helped me immensely. Now…you cannot tell your wife that you are or have changed. Words don’t mean sh** especially to our estranged spouses. Actions speak louder than words, and make sure the changes and self realizations are genuine. She will be watching even if you don’t realize it; and your behavior will be scrutinized very closely. She is examining everything under a microscope under high magnification, and please don’t try and B.S. or manipulate her. Women hate it when they perceive that they are being manipulated in a relationship. She will see right through it like panes of glass…trust me on this one. In some cases, they will get really pissed when you start making changes and start cater wallowing about why you didn’t do these things before you separated and cause everyone so much pain…etc. etc. “why did it take this for you to realize you needed some help.” Let them say it….respond with something like “men are insulated and sometimes it takes something really devastating before we realize our shortcomings” and this is true of course.

5. “Get a life” (GAL) or at least act like you are getting a life and doing “just fine:” Go to the gym, go hiking, take trips, go for a walk, take classes. You get the idea. They are not going to want to come back to you until they can see that you are strong enough to survive without them, and anyway, doing things might make you feel better. In my case, only the trips really helped and in general I felt pretty crappy regardless of what I was doing. BUT, don’t let them know this. Don’t show it. Fake it if you have to. If you are doing fun and interesting things, they will wonder about it, and probably wish they were doing them with you. However, as is the case with your 180s, it may piss them off. I remember my wife saying something like “oh, now you are having fun and doing all these wonderful and positive things that you would never do with me...guess my love wasn’t enough.” Let them say it, shut up and keep doing what you are doing because it is getting their attention. If anything, say something like “you would love for them to join you but are not going to push because you are respecting their need for space and time.” What about “going dark?” You have to be careful with this one because it can backfire depending upon your situation. In mine, it was delicate because one of her complaints was that I was too distant in our marriage. So I had to be careful here, but it does help somewhat. However, when she called or emailed during dark periods, I was always there to answer the phone or respond to the email ASAP.

Hope this helps and good luck to you all. I know it sucks, but hang in there. Things will get better regardless of what happens with your current situation. The most important thing I learned was to back off, give her space, detach whatever you want to call it without appear to abandon her or my child. This is the hardest thing to do, but it is absolutely necessary if you want success.

[Ready2Change]

My ex once told me, "why don't you man up and move out"., then several months later said "it was my choice to move out"

It looks like she was testing you. We all have choices. We need to make sure we are making choices based on our core values.

[Ready2Change]

From my point of view and a few articles. In most cases:


Women talk about problems to vent/stress relief.
Men talk about problems for advice/help.

[Ready2Change]

Either before she starts speaking or shortly after once I realize this is going to be a long time listening, I'll ask her simply:

"Are you looking for advice? Or for me to listen?"

That lets me know what to do.

[Ready2Change]

I think that the advice that I got here and going out and BUYING the MWD books are the reasons that I am still married and not divorced. You can't have one without the other.

I was lucky and my WAW saw the paradigm shift and agreed to work on us together. Thanks to Greek, Coach, Ready2Change, and others for giving me the words and getting me to a place that would have taken me much longer to reach on my own through 2X4's and all.

[Ready2Change]

When a woman brings up past mistakes you have made it is best to acknowledge them again..

"Yes honey, I did do that and I was wrong" (then shut up)

"Yes honey, I did ignore you a lot and I was wrong" (and then shut up)


Be very careful about telling a woman that you have apologized and want to leave it in the past. The key is to just keep apologizing and agreeing that "yes, you did do what she is bringing up again."


The wise man KEEPS apologizing if she keeps bringing it up. He makes it short, sincere and then shuts up.

She will let it go if you keep agreeing.

Remember guys. Learn to agree. It is the best way to validate.

[Ready2Change]

There is a book (actually two small books) named "Womens Infidelity" by Michelle Langley. This plus the other things that were hitting me, was a huge enlightenment. It talks about 4 stages that a woman in an A goes through. Book 1 is about the first two stages. Book 2 is the last two. I think I ordered it from Amazon. If you can't get both book, then be sure to get book 2, b/c that is what really opened my eyes and made me realize I did not want to end up like that!

[Ready2Change]

With the bomb, divorce and life thereafter I've learned the importance and need for boundaries, listening to my gut. Keeping the Four Agreements as a working model helps immensely... Pay attention. Do my best. Never intentionally cause harm....it's mine to own.

[Ready2Change]

Keep doing what's getting you in a better place. Self care is your best friend. Feeling all those emotions is tough, working through them is great. Keep seeing folks who are supportive, who can listen. I found seeing an excellent counselor helped immensely in processing all this fun stuff.

And I am still going through it...just not as much. And I backslide when I have to deal with him.. but each time less so. And I'm the one who makes my own misery, not him. He's just trying to check off something from a past life he wants nothing to do with.

Keep posting. Keep growing.