What is and is not DBing

[gutwrenching]

I'll second that AMEN...great insight!

[ArnieBGood]

So ABG, I respectfully disagree with your statement that I have propagated a "myth that is antithetical to DB".

Then we have a (respectful) disagreement. And if I had been addressing the LRT then I would agree more. However, what I was pointing out is that MWD disagrees with the statement that

Sometimes, the spouse just doesn't love you anymore.

based on item 5 of The Relationship IQ Quiz. If 90% of the people here are in a LRT situation, then "Marriage Busting" would be a more appropriate name for the forum. I don't believe that is the case, however - and I find it hard to believe that MWD would set all of this up and call it "Divorce Busting" for just 10%.

Some marriages are intractable to anything, be it MC, DB, or similar. However, I also believe that this can only be discerned after a genuine effort has been made to, say DB and sincerely do the work. It may, as in your case, still proves futile as far as saving the marriage. However, in many (perhaps most) cases, it can.

I think that her actual writings are far more helpful than some of the distorted ideas of DB on this forum. I actually would be curious to know what proportion of forum participants have carefully read DR.

I completely agree. Not that DB/DR are some kind of "gospel" or anything (as valuable and terrific as they are), but (as Frank V has pointed out) it is useful to use them as a key reference point and authoritative source about what MWD actually advocates (and what DB is and is not, back to the title of the thread).

[Serenity13]

ABG~

It may, as in your case, still proves futile as far as saving the marriage. However, in many (perhaps most) cases, it can.

Ouch, that was quite a stinger, yet I would like to see the numbers because quite frankly I see more marriages sinking than being busted. Yet you say in most (but not mine) cases DB works?

What would say the ratio of busted divorces is?

[flowmom]

So ABG, I respectfully disagree with your statement that I have propagated a "myth that is antithetical to DB".

Then we have a (respectful) disagreement. And if I had been addressing the LRT then I would agree more. However, what I was pointing out is that MWD disagrees with the statement that

Sometimes, the spouse just doesn't love you anymore.

Yes, I agree with MWD that love can be regained and DBing can help with that. Thing is though, most forum members' marriages are beyond that point. Most often the WAS doesn't love the LBS and they have firmly shut the door on the marriage.

If 90% of the people here are in a LRT situation, then "Marriage Busting" would be a more appropriate name for the forum. I don't believe that is the case, however - and I find it hard to believe that MWD would set all of this up and call it "Divorce Busting" for just 10%.

I assume that MWD's advice works best for marriages that are not at the point of needing the LRT. Unfortunately, most of us don't find out about DB until we get to that point and therefore the forum is mostly populated with folks whose marriages are beyond saving.

Some marriages are intractable to anything, be it MC, DB, or similar. However, I also believe that this can only be discerned after a genuine effort has been made to, say DB and sincerely do the work. It may, as in your case, still proves futile as far as saving the marriage. However, in many (perhaps most) cases, it can.

Many? Most? I wish I could believe that, but I don't

[ArnieBGood]

No sting was intended, and I regret if there was any pain from what I wrote.

I can't speak to the numbers from DB since I am relatively new. A few years ago, however, there was a study done for couples who had attended Retrouvaille in the San Francisco area, and 5 years after the weekend about 85% of the couples were still together. Couples coming to RV are in a lot of similar situations in their marriages; however, the fact of them having chosen to attend together means that there is at least some desire or hope for the marriage for them. So they may be in a very different place than those coming to this forum.

Having seen firsthand what is possible for healing marriages, I am convinced that most marriages can indeed be saved. There is no magic bullet however. I have been saddened recently by the news that one of the presenters on our w/e are now divorced.

[Frank V]

But IMO MWD never intended DBing to involve living in denial or having false hope. I'm glad that you're quoting from MWD because I think that her actual writings are far more helpful than some of the distorted ideas of DB on this forum. I actually would be curious to know what proportion of forum participants have carefully read DR.

AMEN to THAT!

[Serenity13]

ABG~

You went to Retro in 2000?

Why are you on the board now, 10 years after the fact?

What is your story/sitch?

[ArnieBGood]

Many? Most? I wish I could believe that, but I don't

That is certainly understandable. And you may be right as well about the people coming to this forum - I don't have a good sense of that yet. I do see a lot of people in deep pain in their marriages. In the RL cases I am aware, things didn't "just happen" - whether "falling out of love" or even having As. There is always (in my experience) much more going on in the relationship. The other element is the fact (at least according to Harville Hendrix) that most relationship problems are actually based on each partner's individual issues. This is why, I believe, that the DB tack of working on oneself first is an effective one.

[flowmom]

ABG, no sting taken from anything you wrote

A few years ago, however, there was a study done for couples who had attended Retrouvaille in the San Francisco area, and 5 years after the weekend about 85% of the couples were still together. Couples coming to RV are in a lot of similar situations in their marriages; however, the fact of them having chosen to attend together means that there is at least some desire or hope for the marriage for them. So they may be in a very different place than those coming to this forum.

That is a very encouraging track record for Retrouvaille. But your speculation that those going to Retro are in a very different place in their M than the forum members is entirely correct. Going to Retro requires that the WAS is willing to put some effort in the M and has a tiny bit of hope of reconciliation. Unfortunately, that is generally not the case for marriages that are posted about in this forum.

Having seen firsthand what is possible for healing marriages, I am convinced that most marriages can indeed be saved.

I agree with you, but timing is everything. Perhaps my marriage could have been saved IF I had made crucial interventions...a few YEARS ago. That would have required:
* a full recognition of the seriousness of STBXH's marriage dissatisfaction (which he didn't communicate about)
* an awareness of DR and Retro (which I didn't have)
* a willingness to issue a marriage ultimatum to force STBXH to deal with the issues (because he wouldn't have done it with gentle coaxing on my part)

It sounds like you have a lot to offer the forum. But unfortunately I think you'll find that marriages can't be saved past the point of no return, no matter what the LBS does.

[Coach]

The other element is the fact (at least according to Harville Hendrix) that most relationship problems are actually based on each partner's individual issues. This is why, I believe, that the DB tack of working on oneself first is an effective one.

That's one of the reasons calling your spouse out on CB is such a great 180. It shows you have detached a little to change your perspective and see your role and how your spouse is behaving in unacceptable ways. It means you are loving yourself (doing the work). You can't give away what you don't have, so until you love yourself you won't be able to share it.

Women and men know when they are out of line. I believe it is very loving to set and respect boundaries. "I respect the fact that you can do whatever you want but if you want to be in a marriage with me then you can't behave that way." Your spouse does something that goes against your values, beliefs and morals it is your responsiblity to bring it up in a non-confrontational manner.

Not having the tools to do this is one of the reasons couples end up here. Once a LBS stands up for himself they are modeling healthy relationship skills and leading. Too many people regard it as - tough, manning up, setting ultinatums where once crossed there is no coming back, macho, harsh etc. It's wise, healthy, necessary, appropriate and loving.

It's one of the things you need to learn to handle because it will present itself again in most relationships. I have a issue with your behavior not you as a person. Looking inward you need to look at why you won't say something if it is bothering you.