Sanderika - with apologies to Cas for the threadjack.
I read your post several house ago, and have been thinking a lot about it. Like me you have been at this a long time, although our circumstances are different and I am now divorced, and out of contact with my xh [although this took 5 painful years]. I do think that MLC behaviour/affairs, and other affairs are somewhat different in character There is a very good article by Frank Pittman on infidelity which is available on line, explaing that not all affairs are the same. BUT they are all destructive.
I am not letting the MLCer off the hook here. What they do is hurtful and inappropriate. I also think many of us here become very, and perhaps over-focused on getting our marrige restored. For most of us that relationship was the most important thing in our lives for many many years, even if we had successful careers.
There is a phenomenon that economists among us wil know about called 'sunk costs' Basically it explains why people, even sophisticated investors, continue to invest in no-hope schemes and businesses that are failing because they have alraady invested so much they can't see at some point they have to cut their losses. Because they have invested so much in money and hope and time they feel it MUST come good at some point.
Now, I am an advocate of marriage, of DBing, and of forgiveness, but we all have to ask ourselves to what extent is this a habit - of waiting and hoping, and to what extent also is it a sort of game - can I 'win' this one. I will be honest and say I didn't like the perceived 'failure' of my marriage. I also loved my husband and desperately wanted back what we used to have.
I have come to see that perhaps there is a point at which we say 'enough', and recognise that there does have to be repentence, remorse, and a willingness to act on those feelings on the part of our spouse. Not enough just to have the feelings, and feel bad, but for them to realise that they are responsible for the devastation. Whatever was going on in the marriage, real or imagined, was no justification for an affair. We as spouses did not 'cause' our husbands to have an affair and to behave as they did. They chose that path, and need to own it.
The OW, as we know, is a symptom of something very wrong with them Yes, there may be things wrong with us, and with the marriage. Our problems and issues we fix, and the marriage we fix together. Until the OW is out of the picture and there is real ownershp of problems, I would suggest extreme caution in rebuilding anything other than a very tentative friendshp with a spouse who has cheated and behaved as ours have done.
I am not saying rebuilding is impossible, but I have seen a number of instances of where the spouse has returned to a forgiving spouse, without having really owned their problems, and the whole things starts again, months or years down the line. These people are damaged goods.
Another relationship conversation; this time in person. We revisited the forgiveness issue. Sanderika, H knows I have forgiven him as we have had that conversation several times. I have also acknowledged my part and my mistakes several times over the past few years. I reiterated that tonight and I know he's actually heard what I was saying by his response and our conversation.
GAG, his pain is over the hurt and pain he has caused, the remorse for his actions and his guilt. he knows that I've moved past blame but he said it was still really difficult because of how he felt about himself. Validation, validation, validation.
I think we've agreed that we both have trust issues, me especially but I have to acknowledge that trust is a concern for him too because he didn't feel I cared. he has to trust that I won't hurt him in this way again (my words) I said I was still working on myself and I knew my issues but I need his support.
We talked about 5LL briefly and I explained because mine is QT I find it really difficult when he goes to the cave without an explanation. he agreed to try and talk to me and explain when he needed some space. I agreed to try to give him the space he needed. He said he had been working on his responses when angry and I said I had noticed that and there was a marked improvement.
We agreed that communication was a significant problem and we will try to improve in this.
We agreed that our separation should never have happened.
GAG, H still hasn't told me ow is gone but I sense she has. In answer to your question GAG I sense he wants more than friendship but his protection barrier is up and we spoke in round about terms. I sense he wants to try to work things out but with no promises; needs the out clause. I agreed that I was happy with that arrangement because I am not confident in my feelings.
I said I thought we were happy when we had the kids and he agreed that we were. That's different than the picture he has painted where he was unhappy forever.
he told me I need to be patient, he is trying. I said I heard what he was saying but thought I had also been very patient, just the fact that we could still talk these days. he agreed but said i needed to continue to be patient. And GAG, that is where your excerpt from' I do again' is really relevant. thanks
he said he is happy for me to initiate outings etc; for the first time ever he didn't say he was too busy or say we'll see or anything else.
We had a conversation about other people and he said he was learning to live with the fact that his sister still wouldn't talk to him.
When I walked out to the car we hugged and then we hugged again and he kissed the top of my head.
So, it was a positive conversation overall but we did dance around a few issues.
WOW!!!!!!! I'm dancing a little jig! Thanks for sharing this interesting development with us! It sounds as though you handled yourself very well. I have to say that I have always wondered if I would do so well if I ever have the opportunity to have a R talk with XH.
How did the R talk start? Did you or H initiate it? It's interesting that h was trying to push you away, even recently, when he really DOES want you in his life. Throughout my entire situation Jody has always told me to be upbeat with H/XH to minimize guilt. THis must be the place where that pays off...........Good for you for validating H!!!!!!!!!!
I'm so glad that H acknowledged how hurtful his actions have been. I agree with what Sanderika posted from Dr. Phil's show about how important it is for the unfaithful spouse to acknowledge and demonstrate remorse for what they've done. I remember Rabbit also writing about that this was something that was non-negotiable for her when H returned.
Trust issues. Jeff Scruggs writes about this (go buy that book Cas) and ultimately decides that he can trust his XW because over time he can see that she is not the same woman that she was before the A. The journey after the A changed Cheryl and Jeff was able to see that.
Originally Posted By: dolphin_05
We agreed that our separation should never have happened.
WOW!!!!!!!!! H is being pretty open with you to admit that. It doesn't sound as though he is defending his actions......that is a promising sign.
Originally Posted By: dolphin_05
he said he is happy for me to initiate outings etc; for the first time ever he didn't say he was too busy or say we'll see or anything else.
This is reminiscent of Jeff Scruggs writing that he was happy to be invited but he wasn't quite ready yet for a mutually driven R...........in time Cas.
So happy for you Cas! This is a very positive first step. Patience is REALLY important at this point. Jeff said that he pulled back multiple times when Cheryl lost it even though he had been at the point of moving forward. .......Your situation is a lot different because you were not the person who had an affair and lied, so I would think H's trust issues should be more easily addressed...............Keep coming here for encouragement before your patience wears thin.
I appreciate what you wrote about "sunk costs". I have felt all along that I didn't want to date after the bomb and D because I was still healing. Now that I feel I have identified a number of important things about myself that I needed to change and am working on changing them........ and have done a lot of healing.....and I feel that I've done everything I could possibly do to repair R with my XH, I know that I am ready to move on if nothing happens by my self-imposed deadline.
The concept of "sunk costs' is a good one of which to be reminded. Thank you.
GAG, I initiated this conversation because when I read over the transcript of our skype conversation there was an incident from years ago which I had been thinking of and I had let that incident colour my view. However, H didn't know what the incident was so I decided it was time to bring it into the open to be fair to him. I called him and I asked if I could visit and told him I wanted to talk to him and he said that was fine. When I got there his boarder was there and I was introduced to him and then H took me around to the other side of the house to a small patio area to talk. I must admit I felt a little awkward meeting boarder because he will have met ow before.
So I openly said it was a R talk. I had 5 key words on a piece of paper. I would never have done so if we hadn't had the convo the night before. In this convo I almost sensed H's need to clear up a few issues. I knew it was a risk and that it could backfire but I had to go with my gut and I wanted to clarify a few points.I don't want to harp on the past but we both have to acknowledge that it will be necessary at times to create a future of some sort.
I don't know what that future looks like and neither does H. We were open about this and said that it was a day to day proposition but we were moving forward. So for today we are just trying to be open and honest.
I felt no further growth could be expected if we didn't get rid of a few of the elephants in the room.
The one thing I heard was for me to be patient. With ow gone I feel quite happy now. I feel like H and I are on more positive ground.
The conversations we have had and my knowledge of H enables me to feel quite calm however, I don't know the MLC mind so I have to trust God that H isn't going to have a change of heart or retreat significantly. We all know this is very much a possibility.
I have lots of questions to ask H but I know that their answers will not help atm.
D does not know I had that conversation. She was at swimming. I will not say anything to her as she's been on this carousel often enough.
GAG, I will get that book on the weekend because I can already see from your excerpt things I can relate to. Library doesn't have a copy.
There are lots of things I am thinking; 'what if's' but I have told myself not to worry about those. Today is ok and that's all I need to focus on. I think I'll need that as my mantra.
I meant to say that when I sent H the message for us to talk he said, "Sure", and reminded me the boarder was there. I asked if it was still ok to come because I wanted to talk to him and he said it was fine. With the boarder there, he had a definite 'out clause' if he wanted to use it.
Cas! Brilliant news to hear that you are beginning to talk through things.. Believe me I know how much this is an exciting moment but at the same time a great deal of treading on glass has to be done, as your H will be feeling very vulnerable.. Also this adds to your pain as you have to become the grown up in this situation and in some cases allow them a get out clause.. What I can promise is that although you may not get full realisation and responsibility at this time look at the crumbs and hope for the cake, I got big crumbs at this point but the cake is coming albeit nearly a year later from reconciliation.
The link doesnt connect to your new thread so can you put another one here..
Love to you all as always
Rabbit x
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W 47 H 47 M 24 T 30
Once lost but now found and happily married again!
hey Rabbit, Perhaps I'm just cynical but this is a bit surreal and I am by nature, impatient. I can't stand the lack of contact! I keep thinking that ow is still there lurking. The more conversations we have, the more I feel H is thinking and examining everything. He wants peace and he needs the out clause which I have given by telling him we both have fears and hurt and that we should just take it a day at a time. Thanks for your love and support
