Its my fault. Now what?

[SM34]

This is my 4th thread now.

I have really gotten to terms with the fact that what has happened is my fault.

I still have hope my W and I can fix it, because we are still very close and on good terms. We both still enjoy each other's company.

She is still seeing OM who lives 1.5 hours drive from us.

I need to get back to focusing on DBing. So here goes....

[SM34]

On BD wife said:

1) I have waited for you to be there for me emotionally for a long time. Now I have found someone who can "back it up"

2) You never listen to me when I give you advice on your business. You don't value my opinion.

3) I hate that you don't do things when I ask you. You say not now, you will do it tomorrow. But tomorrow comes and goes and you don't do it.

4) I hate that you start home DIY projects and you never finish them.

Thats the list folks! There are a few more issues that she didn't mention that I know she hates. They are:

1) I don't always look like a business owner. I need to look and act the part.

2) I don't make good use of my time at home to focus on her and her needs. She deals with a child all day and needs adult interaction.

3) I am indecisive. Not attractive at all.

4) Sometimes I tell her I will be home early from work to spend time with her and daughter, and then I get wrapped up in something and don't make it on time. This happened a lot actually. (Not keeping my word)

So these are the things that I need to work on changing. I have started my 180s:

1) The home project DIY left unfinished. When she goes to stay with OM, I try to finish up one project that is unfinished. Did this religiously the first three weeks after BD but have slacked a little due to needing to read a lot of material. Need to get back on track.

2) Doing things that need to be done when she asks. A big one is taking out the trash. She would ask me or tell me the bag is full and I would say OK I will take it out in the morning. I now replace the bag as soon as it is almost full, and make sure it is BEFORE she even asks.

3) I have been extremely decisive now. Sometimes I will suggest we get food from somewhere instead of cooking just so I can demonstrate my decisiveness. It used to take me forever to choose what I want to eat because everything sounds good. Now I pik a protein and go with the first one that catches my eye. If I am familiar with the menu, I just say "I know EXACTLY what I want". Shocked her with this several times already. Waiting for something that needs a big decision to demonstrate this in a more serious scenario.

5) Keeping my word. I have been announcing when I will be home to play with my daughter. I then MAKE SURE I am home a few minutes before it. I also have stopped using my phone or my laptop during the short time I have with D after work and before her bedtime. Thank you for the suggestion everyone (previous thread).

[adinva]

That's a lot to work with. Mind you, it doesn't excuse an affair. That was her choice and I think it's abominable. But you're here to improve you.

1) I have waited for you to be there for me emotionally for a long time. Now I have found someone who can "back it up"

Ouch. Did you know she didn't think you were there for her emotionally? What do you think that means to her, specifically? I think living in the house with her it is possible to 180 this without pursuing. Dig and find out what she wanted you to do that you weren't doing, because if you don't get this right, your future relationships will flounder. By the way, she didn't mention that she wished you slapped her around more and acted like a jack@ss? JK. Your wife gave you gold to work with and you're over here scraping up pennies. There is a ton, just in this #1.

2) You never listen to me when I give you advice on your business. You don't value my opinion.

Here's an example of how an action you take (disregarding something she said about your business) caused her to extrapolate to a larger truth that would destroy your marriage. Do you recall what advice she offered that you didn't "listen" to? What does that mean to her? Obviously you can do every single thing she says about your business, but it's cool that she expressed interest in it and offered opinions. Did you discuss her opinions, and did you invite her insight? Did you think you respected it? Do you feel misunderstood here or do you "get" why she would have said you didn't listen? Her perception now became that you don't value her opinion. Was that true? It was true...to her. And we could see from the beginning here that you used words and phrases to describe her that reduced her beneath you, virgin, inexperienced, easily swayed, wrong, sick, spoiled. You don't respect her, and you didn't, and she saw that. You don't get to have it both ways, to be right about all you thought about her and have her still want to be with you.

3) I hate that you don't do things when I ask you. You say not now, you will do it tomorrow. But tomorrow comes and goes and you don't do it.

4) I hate that you start home DIY projects and you never finish them.

Those make you seem irresponsible, not very grown up, not manly like a father and head of household. This you can rebuild slowly. Don't over-promise first of all, then you won't under-deliver so much. And when she asks you to do something, right then and there, you tell her by when you'll get it done and you by golly get it done in that window. Again, this will bomb future relationships too. But - you don't drop everything and do it right that minute. You are entitled to be doing something else at a given moment. If it's not on fire, she can't possibly expect you to go running every single time. You just need to be reasonable. For example, my H says you don't put the garden tools away and I hate that. I say, well, I was using them and got called away and I knew I was planning to come back and use them again. Let's say I have them all put away by the end of the day, will that work for you? H says ok, then I say So if you see them out I'm asking you to not get upset about it because I'm still planning to use them or else will put them away by the end of the day, ok? he would say OK, or else he would say, no not ok because I don't know you're going to put them away. So I say, "well that's reasonable. What if we have a holding place near the door where I put them if I'm getting called away and I'm not done with them yet, but at least there they are out of the weather, will that work for you? Yes, then we're good to go. We understand, we negotiated, we figured out what was causing the stress and came up with a solution we both could live with. Alternatively, if H said go now and pick up that garden tool and I said going dear and ran, I would feel kind of like a child. Obviously this kind of negotiation is new to me, and takes practice and effort on both sides to be reasonable and fair and set expectations correctly to avoid misunderstanding. It's the kind of thing we worked on in counseling and made great strides even though he only attended a handful of times. It created a lot more peace in our house, even while we were in-house separated.

Thats the list folks! There are a few more issues that she didn't mention that I know she hates. They are:

Good job. You dug deeper. I actually think these are things you also don't like about yourself so much, so whether she hates them too isn't even the point. Fix them for you and look for more. If you got lazy during your marriage, that is on you. Get unlazy and get ready to like yourself on your own, with your w, or with someone else. That is attractive.

1) I don't always look like a business owner. I need to look and act the part.

edit: I WANT TO look and act the part. Don't you? You need more self-respect, and this is where you start to get it.

2) I don't make good use of my time at home to focus on her and her needs. She deals with a child all day and needs adult interaction.

You're making improvements here. This is for you too. Are you proud of being someone who manages time poorly and therefore neglects loved ones? That's not cool. Do better, you'll feel better, you'll be better. Your child will be closer to you. Win all around. You should almost be glad of a bomb to wake you up to things like this.

3) I am indecisive. Not attractive at all.

Totally, 100% for you. Even YOU aren't finding yourself attractive. Fix that. You are picking kind of arbitrary small things to be REALLY DECISIVE about, which smacks of trying too hard in the early stages of learning something. But it's good practice. Even when there isn't a decision to be made, start asking yourself internally, what your opinion about that is. It's practicing decision-making and will help you when there is a decision to be made. Look at a flyer from a store and pick which couch you would buy if you were shopping there. Watching TV, ask yourself what you think of this or that current event. Form an opinion. If W is sitting there, ask her what hers is. I see being decisive as related to having and knowing your opinions, so practicing having an opinion will help you not hem and haw over what food to order in a restaurant. BTW are you anxious? Do you think you might have an anxiety disorder causing you to have trouble choosing things as simple as what food to order? Are you worried you might make the wrong choice? Something to bring to your counselor to work on. Anxiety is both a big handicap in life AND not very attractive.

4) Sometimes I tell her I will be home early from work to spend time with her and daughter, and then I get wrapped up in something and don't make it on time. This happened a lot actually. (Not keeping my word)

Ouch again. I'm really feeling her hopelessness about wanting to be with you. She was a low priority for you and you made that clear, and you are now SO MAD that she put someone else above you. What did you put above her? a project at work?

Like I said, there's a gold mine here. Work to do is power for you. It will make you feel better, more in control, less hopeless. It will make you more attractive. It will give you something to do while you and she start to heal, get some time to breathe, and then MAYBE consider if this is something you both can pull back from the brink. This stuff lends a very different perspective from the self-righteous indignation you had going for a while here. And before you go outing her or shaming her, maybe get a copy of this list to hand over to the person you're outing her to, in case they want both sides of the story. Not really, but it's meant to get you off your high horse and see where real progress can be made. More and more I'm convinced that you were headed in a bad direction to try to make yourself out the innocent victim and her the wacky sicko that is cheating on you for no reason.

[25yearsmlc]

this^^^ is an articulate brilliant post. I agree with all of it.

Crimson's/Bond's were also excellent.

Please read Crimson's last post to you again & again. You said you gravitate towards men who were LBSers.

He's an amazing example of a man who dug deeply & bravely & with brutal honesty. Crimson has emerged from his ordeal, a substantially better father and husband, and man, than he was before. The changes are enormous. His LIFE is a giant 180, from where I sit. He is like a Phoenix to me.

2) Read adinva's post to you over & over. She's an LBSer & yet another woman giving you feedback. She's telling you (as have I, and Sandi and other women AND Bond, and Crimson, come to think of it!)

-that the message you send out to the women here, is NOT matching who you claim to be.
Yet you persist in telling us what WE feel and what attracts US and when we say "No SM, that's NOT appealing to us",

then you correct us! And you see no irony or arrogance in that...

Well, enough said for now. Just know that asking for different opinions is wise and it's a reason FOR coming here.

But not to get advice that contradicts DBing...b/c if that is what you want (e.g., "tough love" has some value with children in particular, but it is one example of what DBing does NOT advise)

then go to their websites! They may help.

BUT don't use their approach WHILE using ours. You'll be doing both a disservice.

You want your wife to believe you have changed and won't revert to the old you if she recommits. This is normal on both sides.

You ask "WHEN will she believe?"

here's the "math" of it:

consistent change + sufficient time = change she can believe in.

so choose AN approach and do it, consistently, and when you see a lot of disagreement,

or one person persistently advising you differently than the rest,

use a filter, not a sponge. Otherwise you'll be paralyzed.

make sense?

[theUF]

For example, my H says you don't put the garden tools away and I hate that. I say, well, I was using them and got called away and I knew I was planning to come back and use them again. Let's say I have them all put away by the end of the day, will that work for you? H says ok, then I say So if you see them out I'm asking you to not get upset about it because I'm still planning to use them or else will put them away by the end of the day, ok? he would say OK, or else he would say, no not ok because I don't know you're going to put them away. So I say, "well that's reasonable. What if we have a holding place near the door where I put them if I'm getting called away and I'm not done with them yet, but at least there they are out of the weather, will that work for you? Yes, then we're good to go. We understand, we negotiated, we figured out what was causing the stress and came up with a solution we both could live with.

GREAT post adinva. Read it over and over SM34.
I know I will(and need to).

It's an awesome example given by adinva, because it highlights how she was decisive, but still included her H opinion into the matter.

You mentioned you are 1.indecisive and also 2.didn't value her opinions/advice. Adinva showed you an example on how to avoid both in the same setting.

[adinva]

Is this the new thread? New thoughts for you.

Adinva you have made some awesome points! Thank you so much for the thoroughly evaluation of me =)

By the way, you like me because i am genuine, I am loyal, I am loving and caring. I am very calm and patient with the people I love and I am smart! =)

You know what? I like you because you have a high opinion of yourself. That’s cool. Live up to it please!!! And the impressions I gathered from talking back and forth with you about other things made me like you much more than your blunt statement that you are loving and caring. Words mean nothing. Your personality comes out gradually in the things you choose to mention and the way you describe them. You can’t just say “I’m caring” and it be true, but I have seen it glimmering in your long posts.

I think an important point is when you ask what my wife liked about me when we met. I am working on really tried to wrap my head around who I was back then, versus who I am right now, and at the same time who I want to be going forward.

She was always very proud of me! Everywhere we would go, anyone she spoke to about me, especially her family, she would say he is "brilliant" he is "genius" he is so smart. I have a strong academic background and I think she really REALLY likes my intellect.

Did you think you were smarter than her? This may be surprising to you but consider it: I love men who are very smart too, and the reason is because I’m very very smart. Extremely. And I admire and respect intelligence because it stimulates me, and it’s fun to have a meeting of the minds or a good debate, and smart people are interested in interesting things. From an earlier post, and from her short list of things you did wrong, I gather that she was quite disappointed that you didn’t seem to respect her intellect back and invite her advice on your business and possibly other matters. In your posts you have condescended and put her in a box called “Woman” and attributed to her vacuous qualities such as being mysteriously attracted to bad boys. Take a look there and see if any of it fits.

When she was telling me our marriage is over, I asked her what she likes about OM. She said, "He is brilliant like you, only he satisfies me emotionally too". I'm not sure how he is brilliant at all and everything I know about him suggests he made and still makes some very bad decisions in life.

My guess, based on what you’ve said so far, and the way she constructed that sentence, is that your marriage is in big trouble because of the emotional component. You missed the boat there big-time, maybe irreparably, and she went looking elsewhere to find it. You need to start acting like the better choice, pronto, by learning what emotional connection is, what it means to her specifically, where exactly you fell down on the job. Sure wish you’d go to counseling with her…or on your own.

I think many people on the forum have expressed a certain "optimism" for my wife and I. Many have gravitated to my thread because I think they feel there is a strong chance here to fix this. My wife will realize at some point that OM is not adequate. I know that, and you all get a similar impression from the stuff I have passed on about him. The question is, who will I be when that happens?? Need to get cracking.

Yep. You have made the flawed assumption that when OM turns out to be a disappointment she’ll come back to you. She’s already gone from you and may be too far to see a reason to come back. But there is a lot you can do to become a better choice. And you’re interested in finding out what that is – a lot of people here are very resistant and defensive and you don’t seem quite so.

Another thing my wife found EXTREMELY attractive is that I am foreign born. My family are Coptic Egyptians which are a small minority of Christians in Egypt. I grew up in Dubai (the amazing city with the tallest building, the biggest mall, the indoor ski resort in the desert). I went to a private school my whole life and our high school was actually ranked in the 10 ten in the world by the British board of education. I had a strong British accent when i arrived here in USA to start university. She loved it! Well so did all the women really. The accent is almost dead now...but I don't think I should be faking it back =)

Anyway, my wife likes that I have a world perspective, I grew up in the middle east but in a community of predominantly british and European/Australia people who formed a small, tight knit community. I am also from an Ethnic minority in Egypt. I have traveled the world.

My wife on the other hand, is from a small town USA, typical suburbia type. She dealt with the divorce of her parents at age 13 and that reduced the standard of living for her. They never really did anything as a family in terms of traveling or fun activities. Her family is originally Italian and her dream has been to go to Italy one day. And I have backed that dream and promised to take her to Europe and show her what I have seen, as soon as our daughter is old enough to stay with her grandparents for a week. I think she would leave OM right now if I had tickets to Italy!! =)

Um how long have you been married and how many places have to traveled to with her so far? And what is your excuse for not taking a perfectly portable young child on an adventure with her? If money is tight find interesting places in the US, or Cancun’s pretty cheap to go to. I believe what she liked in you sparked an adventurous spirit, it would be very sexy to feed that. NOT to condescend to show her the world, but to be someone she could discover it alongside. I sure hope you’ve been places with her, but I’m guessing you haven’t. Start dreaming up SHORT trips that might be exciting for YOU, and maybe go on one and see if she’d like to go with you. You might say, I know we’re not getting along so well not and I’m sorry about that, so I’ll understand if you don’t want to do this kind of stuff with me right now, but I’m going to start doing it anyway because world travel and even just travel is something I like about myself and want to get back into, and I’d love to do it with you. Wanna go with me to XXXX next weekend? With the kiddo?..................groupon.com, livingsocial.com, cheapcarribean.com, travelzoo.com. I respond to accents and men from exotic places too, not because I’m inferior to them because I grew up in a boring mid-american suburb but because I’m COOL TOO, I like travel too, I’m an adventurer too. I might be projecting but there’s something you can work on here that OM doesn’t really have the tools to do.

And don’t go all out now while your marriage is in trouble. Save the dream trip to Italy for when you’re both interested in rebuilding and see a chance. Don’t try so hard because it looks like a tactic and tactics are manipulation and off-putting. Oh also, meetup.com . Be an adventurer, that’s attractive and will attract her. And be open to her joining you….or not…as she wishes. But go have an awesome time either way.

I love my wife despite what she has put me through. I took her for granted, and also did not work on my character to really grow into the husband/father/businessman I wanted to become. I have a lot of potential because of my education background and my world perspective, and my family experience (this is a big one because my parents have been together for 43 years and wife saw that as a sign of loyalty). But I stopped growing as a person right around when my business partner and then best friend began his drug habit. That has really taken a toll on my ENTIRE existence. I'm discovering damage that it did to my marriage, to my personality, to my outlook on life, to my business, to my relationship with people!

You have been given a tremendous gift and owe your wife a bunch of flowers because she opened your eyes to the fact that you don’t even like some of your ingrained habits and now have a plan and some ideas to have a better life, with her or without her, but maybe if you’re very lucky WITH HER.

good luck to you

[SM34]

Advina, now we are getting somewhere... digging deep. Ok here it is.

Do I think I am smarter than here?: Not really. I may know more from an educational standpoint, but she is very smart she just never had the chance like i did. My parents paid for my private schooling and my college degree and so I was very fortunate. Due to her divorced parents, there was always a sense of "Who is going to pay for you? Ask mom, no ask dad" and it is unfortunate. In fact, I sensed this about her from the start and I felt bad. When we were getting married and starting I family, she would tell me that our kids are going to think daddy is smart and educated, and mommy only has a high school diploma. So, I encouraged her to go back to school and study Interior Design which is were her passion lies. I signed for her student loan and supported her financially (books etc) for two years in a private college and she graduated. I still have that loan to repay even if she doesn't stick around to fix our marriage. I don't regrett it. She is the mother of my child and is a special person, and will always be special to me. Her parents didn't do this for her, so I did.

We definitley enjoy debating each other. Usually about political stuff as we are both die hard political buffs. OM is not at all interested because his world revolves around video games. I know I shouldn't care but these are things that she herself has told me. So she still posts Facebook posts that are very political, especially when she is staying with OM. She knows I am going to see them, and she knows OM will not Like or comment on them. They are targeted at me!

I know you all have bashed GH31 for some of his advice to me. However, I know he is reading these posts so I just want to say that he is a very knowledgeable guy and has studied the psychology of a person who is straying or thinking of leaving. He speaks guy talk very well and has guided me through moments when I didn't understand why my W was acting the way she does. He reminds me that this is normal for people in an affair and what to expect, why she says certain things, and how to tell that she is still holding on to me, "just in case". I'm not sure if she is or isn't but I like to think she is, its just very early in her new relationship and she will not be able to see it for what it is until months from now. So I have time to work on myself, and work on showing my wife a new me. She lives with me, and we have a great time together. I make her laugh now that I am more relaxed about the situation,

GH31 you are still my man! please stop by and tell me how you think I am doing, He has offered me great tips on what material to read so as to better myself. Also helped me relax and see that this is a marathon not a sprint. He has also guided and advised me on how to stay calm and collected and to act, but not react when my W tries to corner me or start something with me. I owe him for that knowledge and feel I can still learn A LOT from him. He has been bashed a little on some of the ladies posts because he has a harsh method of getting through to us men. If you read some of his first posts to me, he was slamming me for some of the views I had. Really an awesome guy with a lot of knowelde, and if you read his thread you will see he changed himself from a "real piece of work" as he put it, to someone who is much more friendly. He fought for his marriage for 2 years through things that would make most men give up. I really admire that guy and hope he is reading right now so he can still offer his insight, from a mans perspective.

About not listening to her about my business, and then her thinking I don';t value her opinion. This has come up many times over the last few months and I have tried to explain to her my perspective, but she doesn't seem to want to get it. here is my view:

I went through hell for 3 weeks with my business partner while I had to toughen up and finally grow some b@lls and squeeze him out of the business for the good of my health and the future of my family. I would have normally relied on my wife to help me through it emotionally and be there to rub my back every night etc.. while the battle was ongoing. However, for the first time in our relationship, I wanted to prove to myself and to her that I can be strong and be a man and do whats best for my family. I wanted to remove the parasite that was my partner without any help and without moaning to her.

for three weeks I fought with him and had attornies etc. on a deal. My parents where in town and they could look after my daughter while my W got a chance to catch up with her friends and do fun things. I did not want to ruin it for her. When I finally had the deal wrapped up, I told her about it. She was over the moon and was SO proud of me for stepping up and being a man. She said why didn't you tell me? I had no idea you were going through this on your own. I told her because in the past times I almost got my partner out, you were there for me and then in the last step I buckled and didn't follow through. I wanted to prove to myself, and to you that I can be strong. She said I am SO proud of you baby! And now you have the business to yourself!

I took the opportunity to include her and to give her something to work on aside from just the baby stuff. I sat her down and told her this is going to be a lot for me, to run two retail stores. I need a business partner. I need someone who understands me, someone who is smart, someone dependable, someone who gets things done. And that person is YOU. She was so happy! i said you are now officially my partner. I am going to add you to the payroll and you will have weekly checks and will have a say in what direction we go from here. Everything seemed to be going well.

Then her suggestions started. They were all good suggestions, just that there was not enough funding for them. She wanted to run a huge TV campaign to grow the business. Great idea, but lack of funds was the hold up and she was not being realistic. So that is when this idea that I don't listen to her, which was always because I had a business partner, now became in her mind just because I didn;t think she was smart enough. The real reason was that we had to make some sacrifices if we wanted to implement her suggestions but she has never taken part in financial planning or our budgeting so thats not her forte. She wants to say lets do this, and I figure out how.

As far as travel, during our relationship for 9 years before our marriage we went everywhere! I took her to see New York city which was always a dream for her. We went all over Florida where we live; Miami, the keys, Orlando A LOT because it is close by. We went to Las Vegas for our honeymooon and we always reminiced on how nice that vacation was. We had SO MUCH fun.

We used to vacation 2 to 4 times a year. The last decent vacation was a baby moon in the Smokey Mountains in tennesee 3 years ago. We stayed in Gatlinburg. Awesome time even though wife was 7 months pregnant.

So our problems I think we compounded with the fact that we could not go on vacations anymore due to finances. I should have at least planned one nighters at least in a hotel or something. It is the time we bonded the most. hind sight is 20/20.

Not sure how I can tell her we should go on a mini vacation. She is a good woman in that she did not physically cheat on me (she told me before it went from EA to PA) it was more a mental thing that upsets me. She opened up to OM and he took advantage of a weaker point in our marriage, and now she is head over heels with a fantasy. This is not necessaril MWD theory, but I think you have to understand the psychology behind an affair to truely have a strategy as to how to get your wife back. I need to work on myself so if and when she regrets her decision and begins to look back, I will look more appealing. But, GH31 is right to try to manipulate the situation to his favor.

For example, when you now OM is not able to take care of W finacially, and that he lives so far and W will not like being so far away from her daughter, it is sound strategy to let her move out in a loving way. He believes and so does Sandi2 by the way (she has said this to me in an earlier post) that WAS do not start to look back or question their decision until they suffer a consequence from their decision.

So, GH31 and many others such as Jack_three_beans, David, Nathan, (and others) who have been on this forum for years (some upto a decade) all took the same strategy. You keep the wife at home with you as long as you need to, in order to show them you have changed and how good life with you is. You show them compassion, you show level headedness, you show them respect, and all the stuff that a good husband should be. Plus you 180 on the things she always complained about. In my case, my W is currently getting financial and intellectual support from me (she draws me into political debates every night, posts stuff on FB for me to comment on etc..) and all the husband type things. Then she is getting her emotional and sexual "fix" from OM.

Then, at some point, you lovingly ask or remind them that they need to move out so we can all get on with our lives. After all, they want to move on to a better life with someone else, and so you should have the freedom and ability to do that. How can I move on if she is living with me?

Once she is on her own, and does not have me to satisfy her intelect every night, she will begin to see how OM only satisfies the one thing I was not able to, and now she is short on all the rest of things. When she starts to look back though, it is crtical that she thinks I have resolved the issues that caused me not to be able to offer her emotional and physical attention. So to me this makes sense 100%. You can sit back and work on yourself all you like. It is a good suggestion to do so, for yourself regardless of whether you wife comes back. But if you actually want your wife to come back, it would seem advantageous to have an understanding of pyschology of affairs and how it is generally poorly thought out by the WAS and their "plan" has many flaws, that their infactuation with someone they bearly know is an addiction to the newness of it and not necessarily to the person etc.. I think this knowledge is important... after all knowledge is power!

Advina lets keep this going . I think this is good for me to reflect on who I am, and how I can be a better person. I know my W and I really feel at some point this is not going to work out for her. I feel we are destined to be together. I am willing to wait, and take the time to work on myself. I think it was David (one of the veterans on here) that said that his wife was "on loan" to OM while he works on himself so he is a better husband. I like that idea! Well not that OM is sleeping with my wife, but you know what I mean.

[SM34]

In the counselling thing, we had to reschedule any way because our daughter was sick and couldnt go to daycare as planned. So, I could very easily tell W I think we should reschedule it but I want to go to a counsellor that we look up and read about. The one we were going to was suiggested by W's therapist since it is the lady in the office next door to her. Doesn't sound promising. I would want to go to someone solution based, and have the sessions individually. That is the only way the therapist can hear her side of the story and then remind her or teach her that she could rescue her marriage by doing X or Y or Z. She will not be receptive to it, but it might plant the seed in her mind that even a professional thinks its salvegable.

Currently I think her therapist is validating her view that this marriage is over given W's feelings for OM right now. If we had someone like MWD style, they could remind her of the long shot the relationship with OM is and how small changes in how we interact may make our marraieg better. Also, someone professoinal to tell her that most second marriages don't work out, and that blended families are a nightmare...all the stuff my W is not thinking about right now because she is being selfish and just thinking of herself and not her 3 year old daughter. She is even considernig moving to OM's ciy 1.5 hours away, and I guess having me single parent a 3 year old GIRL. Not very sound thinking coming from my W. I know her well, and in a sound state of mind she would never agree to that.

However, a session where we both sit together in a room is just goin gto be awkard and I think detrimental. I will seem to pusue again and it is too early for that. She knows I am willing to take her back and that is why we are n good terms. She is playing me alittle so she can see how it goes with OM and I guess I am OK with that right now because I need her to see that I am changing.

[25yearsmlc]

so you still won't go see a MC with her? And you only want her to go to counselling so she can be "taught" that she's wrong...

but then you say you want to work on yourself...why? What's there to work on?

As for the posts by Jack3 and Bond and Denver, as well as Sandi's and mine all say things about detaching. We all follow parts of DBing, whatever applies in our sitch. That's not the same as "tough love". At least not per Dobson's approach.

Like I said, choose AN approach and work it long enough to see if it's working for you.

I just still see you arguing for your positions, and opening A LITTLE bit to our suggestions. That's some progress I guess.

As for who is smarter, etc.

Among the many things I love about my h, (and meeting OMs usually just confirms this for me) is that he's very intelligent and educated,

and he is NOT threatened by MY education or intelligence.

I dated a lot of men who SAID they liked smart women, but they often felt intimidated by women who were smart and or articulate. Especially if they disagreed with the man.

These men tended to show their insecurity or need to control, by disagreeing unecessarily with whatever I'd suggest,

or by condescendingly "explaining" to me why my idea or suggestion would not "be realistic". (Which is insulting & revealing).

I notice you value words of affirmation and you treasured your wife's admiration. I think my h is similar. But when your h hurts you, it's almost saint like to think you can still verbally admire him,

not to be punitive BUT b/c you fear he'll take for granted that he can hurt you AND YET the r will remain the same. It's not the same when you are in pain.


The fact was that the men who claim to value my intelligence were sometimes liking the "trophy value" of having an educated professional wife, (& or the income)

but if it came to making a choice THEY DID NOT WANT to make, then I was "wrong" or "misinformed" or "not realistic."

Some of what you said here about why your wife's business ideas were somehow never implemented, hit a nerve. It's odd that none of her ideas were used if she was actually an equal partner.??

You're also saying that your wife's choices are "selfish" (just stop the condemnation b/c it does NOT help you or the cause of saving your m!)

and that a solution based therapist would be better, and the latter part of your sentence is true, certainly.

But if you want your wife to go to a therapist of any kind, to learn how wrong she is, you're not wanting the same thing she wants.

Your wife wants to be happy IN a marriage. You want her to be with you. There's a difference.

And truly, why aren't you focussing on YOUR need for a good solution based therapist? You know, for YOUR work?

Did you say you hired a DB coach yet? I hope you did. They're very specific in their advice. At least mine was. She helped me see my h in a more loving way, not a more negative way.

I'm going to post a letter to you from a WAW, which was written to Denver.

In her letter, this WAW explains to Denver why his wife isn't eager to return to him yet, EVEN THOUGH HE, (Denver) had changed.

See if your wife might relate to any of it, or if YOU can see yourself in any of it...

FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND, WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET, AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….

When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than.

One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H. Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes.

So, I can see where your W is coming from. When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.

Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated - does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time. Those rejections sting, and it was routine for you to do that to her, for years.

And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.

Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope.

You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.

And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to win.

Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.

Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her, BUT you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.
________

[sandi2]

I would want to go to someone solution based, and have the sessions individually.

Have you expressed that to her?

Currently I think her therapist is validating her view that this marriage is over given W's feelings for OM right now.

Very possible. Was she seeing a therapist before the EA?

I understand what you're saying about having a solution based therapist, however, wanting a professional to "remind" her of all the statistics may not do much to sway her. The WAW in an A has that fantasy where it is "different" for them. Logic seems to be lost even on very smart people who has a brain bathed in love chemicals.

In time, she will begin to come out of the fog. That is when she will listen to the solutions and the statistics and begin to doubt her decisions about OM. Right now, she doesn't want to see the negative side to a future with OM. But eventually, she will see that he doesn't keep his promises nor the other things she originally thought about him.

So much of the process just takes time. If you are okay with staying there with her while she works this out, then you have that chance of proving how much you've changed....and can stay changed.

I agree with 25yrs. You should read Crimson's thread.