Trying to save (not sure if broken or bent) p2

[SemperFi00]

New thread - last one was locked quick. Right at 101 posts...

link to prev threads for background if of interest:

Previous threads:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&view=started&id=31323

[SemperFi00]

Bringing over from previous thread to continue the discussion.....

You can have these things, companionship, life partner, physical connection and not love the person you're with. Love should never be implied. Nor should anger or pain or frustration. A relationship should be strong enough to hold all those emotions.
So labug this ^^^ is very interesting to me. Always appreciate your comments and the questions you ask.

I agree that a R should be strong enough to handle many different emotions, conversations, actions, etc……. I don’t quite get what a R would look like that had all of those things but there was no love – interested in what that would look like?? Another way to ask the question would be to ask you to describe how you would define/describe love?

For me, love is also about the selfless acts of kindness and caring that a person does because of the feelings they have for someone else.....

Maybe I need to expand my definition a bit though......

You're a very controlled guy, or that's the impression I get from your posting. I could be very wrong. When was the last time you were angry? I don't mean the acting out of anger, I mean you felt anger, let yourself feel it, allowed it to cool and went to the other person and said "Let's talk."

It took me a long time to learn that anger isn't the problem it's how we express it that can be the problem.

Agree that anger is not usually the problem – it is more typically in how a person deals with the anger that can create problems.

When I was younger I had a real problem with how I dealt with anger. I can remember times when I was in jr high and high school being so mad that I would repeatedly hit trees, walls, etc… until my hands would bleed. I can also remember times just out of the military when someone would cut me off driving, give me the wrong food at the drive-thru or say something disrespectful that I would become very confrontational.

Some of this my W was exposed to early in our R (probably 15 or more years ago) but mostly not. Nothing ever physical w/her or the kids but her father was borderline abusive and emotionally dis-engaged from the family so it's a real trigger for her.

I can only think of 1x in the past 5 years or so that there has been any scenario – I slapped a wall in frustration while heading out to my car on the way to work and cracked the drywall. Pressure was caused by a few things: job being relocated to another state, F dying of cancer and W beginning on this “journey”.

So yeah, very aware and controlled about emotions in general – especially anger. Not proud of any of this and I know how ridiculous it sounds when the emotion has subsided and when reading it typed out here.

Have a heavy bag in the basement that I sometimes use to help with the frustration and I also find that regular walks on the treadmill and daily meditation readings help manage the stress level a great deal.

It's even more of a problem when we express it by withdrawing.

Embarrassingly enough have done this also. I have realized that sometimes I was doing it to calm down and other times I was doing it in hope that it would cause a reaction from W. Not a good thing I know and a work in progress..... Haven't done this in quite awhile that I am aware of

Feels at this point like I am at an intervention and should say "....my name is SemperFI and I have been pout free for XXX years"

Will come back to some of your other points a little later....

[labug]

I agree that a R should be strong enough to handle many different emotions, conversations, actions, etc……. I don’t quite get what a R would look like that had all of those things but there was no love – interested in what that would look like?? Another way to ask the question would be to ask you to describe how you would define/describe love?

What would that R look like? Maybe 50% of marriages in America today.

Here's the bottom line-most women (and probably men, too) like to hear that the person they have those things with loves them.

This was one of the problems in my M, we started living like roommates who shared children. We didn't look at each other with love, we didn't honor each other as the person we loved, we each held our resentments and allowed them to build.

The way you express love may not be received as love by your W. The 5LLs is so simple but so powerful. I now make time to those things for my H which mean love to him and I also say it out loud with meaning. Its hard not to feel the power when you look someone in the eye and say "I love you" and mean it.

You wrote about how you used to express anger, thanks, that's difficult to do. What made you change and what were your changes? There is a middle ground between violence and shutting down, would you agree?

[labug]

Definition: Love contains trust, honesty, openness, compassion, intimacy(both physical and emotional), affection, acceptance of the other for just who they are, respect for the needs of the other, patience.

Thanks for making me think about that.

[SemperFi00]

Couple of quick things to journal

Had the opportunity to implement idesa shared in recent discussion on last thread and went golfing on Sunday with neighbors who needed a 4th. Had a good time – W was supportive.

W shared news last night that she had been offered and accepted a full job in the school system starting in the Fall. Increase of $3 an hour, benefits and more hours. Congratulated her several times and told her that I thought it was great. Asked a couple of questions – but not so many as to annoy

Couple of times recently W has taken up for me w/the boys during conversations with them.

Had a teacher/parent conference today for S8 that I made the time to attend by leaving work for a bit - With prev 2 (because she was SAHM I often didn’t go and she updated me in the evening). I wanted to be there because I am an engaged father and I made sure I was actively involved in the conversation and provided input versus just observing. I reminded her about it this morning before leaving for work and then she remembered the appointment and said that someone had called to move it 30 minutes earlier. She didn’t tell me not to go but 2x indicated that she didn’t think it was a big deal if I was there or not – she expected the meeting to be quick.

Meeting was quick and informative – glad that I went. Only weird part was that the entire time we were @ the meeting she was bubbly, upbeat, friendly, talkative, engaging me in the conversation, etc…. When walking out to cars afterwards it was like a light was shut off……… Oh well, I don’t think that’s my issue and right now I don’t feel the R is in a place where that can be discussed so typing here instead…..

More later……

[Lifes Twists]

Hi SemperFi,

Good to hear you are being engaged with all things about your children. I feel that part of the WAS view is the other spouse is not involved with the kids. Keep up with the GAL stuff. Its all important for you and your personal growth.

[SemperFi00]

This was one of the problems in my M, we started living like roommates who shared children. We didn't look at each other with love, we didn't honor each other as the person we loved, we each held our resentments and allowed them to build.

Things were/are similar in my situation – although I don’t think that there was significant resentment @ least on my end. I guess because I thought things were going along ok and was content w/where we were at the time. Maybe even a bit complacement and things had fallen into a fairly predictable routine which fits well with my personality – but clearly not for W.

I am a bit worried that there is some resentment beginning to build for me now though because of W’s unwillingness to work on building a new R and the pain that I expect her leaving to cause myself and the boys. Also, from my perception she continues to enjoy the advantages of being in a R w/o doing the work. And yes, I know that’s why she is where she is at now and that I am the one here trying to save the M.

That’s why I don’t like the feeling of resentment when it comes up. Also, a couple of times during this journey I have felt jealousy (and maybe insecurity) for the first time ever in R w/W. Have dealt with it in past relationships just have never felt this way before during M. I know what triggered it and it wasn’t necessarily different behavior for W than how she has always acted – just a different set of circumstances. I shared with her how I was feeling, why I was feeling that way, that I didn’t like feeling that way and then let it go.

I suppose all of this ^^^ contributes to the controlled observation you have accurately made a couple of times – particularly when it comes to emotions.

[SemperFi00]

You wrote about how you used to express anger, thanks, that's difficult to do. What made you change and what were your changes? There is a middle ground between violence and shutting down, would you agree?

Appreciate the comments ^^^ but it is not now all that difficult for me to talk about – I used to get defensive about it though and tell people they were exaggerating. Until I matured a bit, I often rationalized the behaviors as not that big of a deal because any of the physical stuff was directed at inanimate objects and the withdrawing was just childish behavior that wasn’t really effective. Silly right? I know that now……

I changed for a few reasons: always felt guilty & childish after I reacted that way and didn’t like that feeling once I had calmed down, at one point W expressed concern about it and that she wasn’t sure she could stay in R if it continued (can’t recall now if this was before M or in the first couple of years), it wasn’t the example I wanted to show future children and in the end it just wasn’t who I wanted to be anymore.

Yes, agree there is a middle ground. That is where I strive to stay – feeling and understanding the anger but not reacting to it in inappropriate & non-productive ways. Not healthy to keep it all inside and also not healthy to release it the way that a 20-something, military kid chose to express it either!

[SemperFi00]

Definition: Love contains trust, honesty, openness, compassion, intimacy(both physical and emotional), affection, acceptance of the other for just who they are, respect for the needs of the other, patience.

Thanks for making me think about that.

Glad to help!

I like the definition above and it seems to sit well with me. It gets to some of the points that I was trying to make earlier but I really like the phrasing “love contains…….”

[SemperFi00]

And labug you have also asked about times I have felt anger recently…… just a couple of nights ago

Quick recap of events:
- got home from a rough day @ work around 630p (later than my target time from 180ss and later than when I wanted to be home)
- W was on tractor mowing the lawn which was great - unfortunately she had set the blade too low and sheared off two sprinkler heads and scalped the yard in a couple of places. She really enjoys mowing the lawn and had just mowed ours 3-4 days ago so it really didn’t need it yet but she had just finished mowing neighbor’s yard because they were out of town for a funeral
- went inside and found that nothing had been started for dinner and kids were saying they were hungry
- went upstairs to find several loads of laundry on the floor in the bedroom along with windows open while A/C was on

Any one of these events in and of themselves probably would have probably been handled by a “whatever, not all that important” type of approach. The combination (plus current situation) escalated my feelings a bit and I cycled through a feeling that I wanted to yell at W, then thoughts around whether she was intentionally doing some of these things just to aggravate me and eventually would up in a place where I was like “whatever, it’s ridiculous to let these things get me that upset”.

So I closed the windows, started some laundry, thanked my W for mowing the lawn and tested the sprinklers – thankfully they still worked – and the night continued on. This whole cycle probably took about 10-15 minutes.

To be fair though it must not have been completely transparent to W because S18 said something about stopping mowing and W made a comment – something to the effect of “what, you too?”

Ugh – I see that I am still not perfect and have some work remaining…. But the good news is the work is only needed for the rest of this life!

[labug]

It's good that you recognized your anger and were able to figure out what was really going on. The all important Pause.

Why do you think those events stirred up anger? What was the emotion under the anger and why was it there? Some unmet expectation?

"Nothing ever goes away until it's taught us what we need to know." Pema
I have found that so true in my life.

And some would argue that what we don't learn in this life we still have to work on in the next.

[labug]

I also wanted to point you to this post and this discussion if you haven't already been there.

life, age, sex, hormones

[SemperFi00]

labug,

I think it was the combination of all of the small events. I could actually feel/see it building - and the fact that I could helped with not reacting in an inappropriate way. In the pastm there were times where I wouldn't see the connection / buildup until after I had reacted and calmed down.

There is also an element in there somewhere of feeling like my W has no respect for me or our R right now and that she has a tendency some days to act in a very selfish manner.

It also help last night that I got to take S15 to bbal evaluations for a summer league he wants to play in. Got me out of the house and talking to others while kids were playing.

[SemperFi00]

Will check out the link now - haven't seen it before but thanks for sharing.

And I plan on trying to pick up the books you mentioned this weekend.

[SemperFi00]

I have been skimming this post over the last couple of days - assume that you were pointing to Underdog's post in particular?

[labug]

Yes.

[SemperFi00]

Thanks for the referral. I have been following the thread and was initially intrigued by Underdog’s response as well as 25yearsmlc.

I think that it is significant contributing factor to what my W is going thru – she was actually told by her primary care she was peri-M about 4-5 years ago. The only reason I remember was because she was clearly upset and I had no idea what it was – so I headed off to learn more about it. And both her sister and mother went through a similar journey around the same time in their lives…….

I think that there are other factors also contributing such as her R (or lack of) w/her father, the fact that she has typically avoided conflict (except w/me now apparently), her parents going thru D when she was younger, being a SAHM for many years (and a 2nd time with nephew when he came to live with us), losing her sense of self-identity in being a W and mother, etc…….. Maybe many of these things are actually inter-related, sort of a chicken and egg thing.

One of the differences that stands out to me is that at some point both Underdog and 25 became willing to work with drs, etc. on how to improve things…… To date, W has been adamant that none of this could be related to anything hormonal and she doesn’t need any help. In her words she has received all the help that she needs and is finally being true to herself and her feelings……..

Yes – I know, believe only half of what they say and do…….

Not fun!

[SemperFi00]

And then all of this ^^^^ leads me back to questioning myself - since that is what I have the most likelihood of being able to change…

I know that I have made improvements throughout this process and have a lot to offer someone as part of a loving, caring R. And that much of the work needing to be done at this point is up to my W and the choices she makes – and I cannot control that or do the work for her.

So…………..

Why do I have such a hard time letting go her and moving on? What is about me and my values that makes is so hard for me to move forward down a path of D, etc….???

[SemperFi00]

I have been thinking overnight ( I know, scary....) more about the why question I mentioned above. Below are the top 3 reasons that keep coming to mind.

- values that I hold that are very important to me (particularly loyalty and commitment)
- belief that some of this is related to things that W is experiencing that she doesn't fully understand or know how to deal with (hormonal changes, depression, childhood issues) these are the things that cause me to have empathy for my W and provide me some support to keep standing
- example that I want my boys to have around working hard for the really important things
- fear of how things would be without her???? I am still not sure about this one. Initially I think there was some of this but as things have progressed I think that there is less and less of this - let's face right now she is not engaged in the M anyway.

I think there was also some guilt/sense of failure/what will people think earlier that has also faded as things progress.

Thoughts/feedback?

[ces67]

Well, it make sense to me and I'd have to echo a great deal of that in my own sitch. I'd go into details but it would just be repeating what you said.

What example are you showing your kids right now? Let's use Bug's definition of love for example. If you look at those descriptions, how much of that are your kids seeing?

For me, I feel I have demonstrated those things a lot. Not perfect by any means, but to a great degree. It recently dawned on me that the primary example my kids are learning by the example of my M is to avoid conflict, stay in your own corner and try not to jar the boat. So basically, I'm setting them up for a really tough road for their own future relationships and I have to find a way to change that and fast.

Not sure if your values are driven from a biblical basis or not. Mine are so that's where I'm coming from with this next paragraph. Take it or leave it as you like....

The example of sacrificial love is saturated throughout the bible. I also realized that the intended out come is always a deep, meaningful and intimate relationship. Always. Its never forced but to me that always appears to be the goal - to draw near.

While I see that example consistently I also see an unwavering focus to not allow mediocrity. At one point the phrasing says if you're going to go at this half-hearted, then I'll spit it out like luke-warm water. That's an interesting visual to me. It seems like a boundary of not allowing one's self to settle for less than what love should be.

I'm no theologian. I'm just a pilgram finding my way along the journey. This seems to tell me that part of the example I need to set is an unwaivering commitment to what intimacy really is. And maybe the example to not settle for less is better for my kids to see than a status quo, unfulfilling marriage.

Of course there are always a multitude of variables to consider (and I will typically take months to assess them all....) But that's where I'm at.

So the question I ask myself and maybe it will help you, is whether or not my actions consistently line up with what I value...

(a wife that mows the lawn... wow...)

[labug]

I wanted to ask, what is the role you see for your W right now and why? You always come up against the same thing, she's underperforming and you're unhappy about that.

About seeing a doctor in menopause and getting help. That's often a shot in the dark. Some women can get help, others can't because it's such an individual thing and hormonal balance is so delicate. It's only in the last 50 years that any perimenopausal help has been studied in a real way. Before we were just supposed to suffer through it. We get that, a lot. And then women are whiners when they don't just suffer through it. But I digress, hot button issue for me. Just know that your W may have asked for help and probably got one suggestion. Doesn't mean she got help it or got it in a way that was helpful to her.

I think many people get trapped in bad, dead, non-existent marriages. If you're deciding to stay in this marriage knowing it isn't a fulfilling part of your life, you need to find a way to be happy in it.

Have you guys read the Cloud and Townsend books on Rs?

[SemperFi00]

Somewhere down the line all this is going to fall into place if you keep doing the work and you'll realize that you are enough. You'll find that living alone doesn't have to be lonely, that a good partner is great but no partner is better than a lousy partner.

Bringing this over from another thread because it struck a chord with me. Didn't want to hi-jack there but also didn't want to lose the thougt

Two initial thoughts:

1. Is this comment about partners a totally binary one - in other words can you have a partner that is somewhere north of lousy by south of good?
2. Or is ^^^ just another rationalization for WAS behavior and maybe indicates fear?

No answers yet, just an initial reaction and more to think about....

[SemperFi00]

Labug and CES, hope that you both ahd a good weekend.

Thanks for helping firm up the definition and continuing to ask the difficult and insightful questions…

W was at sister’s house this weekend from Sat mid morn thru Sun morn so had some time to think and process some feelings. Below are some thoughts around how I see each of the characteristics given ourt current situation.

I am not exactly sure what actions this will drive to yet, but I feel that having thought through this will be important at some point.

Love contains trust,

I don’t feel as much trust as I did before in the so I guess this is a little strained at the moment. I never used to think about or wonder if she was telling me truth, if she was sharing everything with me, never wondered about what she was saying to children when I was not around, etc….

Her sister routinely teaches/allows her girls how to deceive their father and that it is ok to withhold information. We had talked before and agreed that this was not a good approach to parenting but now it feels like W sometimes tries to do the same with our boys on occasion.

Feels to me at times like she is almost competing for their affection and trying to “win” their love – or may maybe trying to lessen some guilt on her part

Love contains honesty

I have been open and honest about feelings, emotions, what I would like to have etc. than ever before. Used to be kind of “roll with the flow”/defer unless I really felt very strongly about something. Not sure if W is being completely honest or not -

Love contains openness

on my end I feel that I have been open with W and she knows how I feel about things, I suppose she has been open also in some areas but secretive in others. And if not, given some of the things that she has said done, I am not sure that I am ready for her to be any more open.

Love contains compassion

I have a great deal of compassion and empathy for what W is going thru – feeling this is one of the large contributing factors to my still standing. Unsure whether she has any compassion for what this experience is creating for me and the boys - or would allow herself to feel it if she did. When asked (many moons ago during beginning stages) she would say it will be tough on everyone but it will be better for all in the end if she is happier….. i.e. kids can’t be happy when she is not and feels this way.

Love contains intimacy(both physical and emotional)

nothing, zip, nada, nyet

Love contains affection

unsure, I try to show W some affection in ways that seem appropriate given the situation (being supportive and patient, doing “house chores”, continuing to support financially, making some changes that I think in the past she may have been alluding to, etc…). In her own way she may view some of the things she continues to do as affection (“house chores”, getting things at the grocery store that she knows I like, making dinners, etc…)

Love contains acceptance of the other for just who they are

right now struggle with being supportive of W as she currently is, I think prior to this accepting of who she was and looked past some of the frustrating characteristics, until this started I would assume that she must have done the same in reverse and then decided she no longet wanted to do that???

Love contains respect for the needs of the other

unsure, I am working on being respectful of what W says she needs right now (time, space, independence). I don’t feel very respected by W at the moment. Wonder though if part of this is really that I am not respecting myself more and am allowing myself to be treated this way? Similar to how I think my mother treated my father.

Love contains patience.

on my end I think that so far I have shown a remarkable amount of patience and restraint, to be fair she has also shown a great deal of patience in not leaving if she truly feels the way she feels and believes that her happiness lies in no longer be M to me.

Apologies for the long post - told you that I had some time this weekend to think & process........

[labug]

Why do I have such a hard time letting go her and moving on? What is about me and my values that makes is so hard for me to move forward down a path of D, etc….???

Seriously, have you seen it be easy for anyone here to let go and move on?

For many of us, we see it as a failure and that just can't be! (she said, sarcastically)

For me, I loved my H, although we didn't like each other very much toward the end, and it took him leaving for me to realize how much I loved him and also how unhappy I was generally. I say I loved him but my emotions were so blunted at the time that I questioned if I could or did love anyone. I didn't feel much and what I did feel was best described as despair. That's how deep I was in the hole.

That's why I'm so verbal about honoring emotions (I didn't say acting on them). Once you start blunting one emotion, they all begin to die out.

My unhappiness was all me and my stuff. So I decided to work on it. Others don't.

It's scary work.

Not doing the work doesn't give anyone a free pass on how they treat others.

went inside and found that nothing had been started for dinner and kids were saying they were hungry
- went upstairs to find several loads of laundry on the floor in the bedroom along with windows open while A/C was on

So how important is it, really?
I ask that as someone who would have been royally p!ssed about these kinds of things in my previous life.

Now I would either do the laundry or decide it's not that important right at that moment and not let it get to me.

I'd close the windows.

I'd make a plan 1)Tell the kids it's catch-as-catch-can tonight, or 2)Let's order pizza, or 3) Always have a something frozen that's a slam dunk for nights like that, or 4)Breakfast for dinner.

That's you taking responsibility for things that are bothering you.

I'm not a real good dinner planner/fixer. Never have been although I've tried. My talents lie in other areas. I do cook and am pretty good, I just don't like the every night part. :)(side note, I used to beat myself up about this, had a lot of guilt, after all I was raised in the 60s-that's what women did)

My H is also a very good cook and he can plan ahead and make it happen. He's much better at it than I am. S21 also cooks so between the 3 of us we eat every night but it's certainly not my sole responsibility. H and I have had discussions about this and I've said, I don't like that job, I will do it my fair share, but I don't want the full responsibility.

I share this as maybe an alternative viewpoint 'cause we have no idea where your W really is on this. Food for thought, a wider lens maybe for you.

(I have a feeling you're going to be thinking, "So what if I don't want to go to work?")

[SemperFi00]

Why do I have such a hard time letting go her and moving on? What is about me and my values that makes is so hard for me to move forward down a path of D, etc….???

Seriously, have you seen it be easy for anyone here to let go and move on?

For many of us, we see it as a failure and that just can't be! (she said, sarcastically)

Agreed - with the statement and the sarcasm. This is one of the things that sometimes still pops into my head - and I question why do I see it as my failure????

For me, I loved my H, although we didn't like each other very much toward the end, and it took him leaving for me to realize how much I loved him and also how unhappy I was generally. I say I loved him but my emotions were so blunted at the time that I questioned if I could or did love anyone. I didn't feel much and what I did feel was best described as despair. That's how deep I was in the hole.

I can sense some of this in W.

She seems to have built a barrier and will not allow anyone inside of it - friends or me..... And even her sister to a certain degree.

She seems to have mastered the superficial niceness, laugh, engagement thing though.

But as you have mentioned, at this point it is her work to do if she chooses. What I have the most control over is me and being patient and supportive if needed.......

And kudos to you for doing the hard work and even more kudos now for taking the time to pay it forward.

That's why I'm so verbal about honoring emotions (I didn't say acting on them). Once you start blunting one emotion, they all begin to die out.

Even anger - once a person has figured out how to manage it appropriately.....

went inside and found that nothing had been started for dinner and kids were saying they were hungry
- went upstairs to find several loads of laundry on the floor in the bedroom along with windows open while A/C was on

So how important is it, really?
I ask that as someone who would have been royally p!ssed about these kinds of things in my previous life.

Now I would either do the laundry or decide it's not that important right at that moment and not let it get to me.

I'd close the windows.

I'd make a plan 1)Tell the kids it's catch-as-catch-can tonight, or 2)Let's order pizza, or 3) Always have a something frozen that's a slam dunk for nights like that, or 4)Breakfast for dinner.

That's you taking responsibility for things that are bothering you.

Yep, in the grand scheme of things none of them were life altering. Just had piled up so I had to take the all important "Pause" I think you called it in a earlier post.

There was a time many moons ago where I would not have handled it in the same way (read poorly) but now did much of what you indicated above - closed the windows, started dinner, played with the kids for a few minutes and thanked the W for mowing the lawn....

And miraculously, things didn't get any worse and I didn't have to apologize for any of my actions.......

Btw, big fan of breakfast for dinner.....

I share this as maybe an alternative viewpoint 'cause we have no idea where your W really is on this. Food for thought, a wider lens maybe for you.

True dat!!!! And not sure it will ever be a top 10 vacation destination.

(I have a feeling you're going to be thinking, "So what if I don't want to go to work?")

hah - this is fantastic!! Hadn't thought this in quite a awhile but I think a couple of years ago (very early on in my situation) I actually said something like......

"If you want to change how things are working we can certainly discuss that but you can't just opt out. That would be like me...... " (wait for it...... wait for it....) "quitting my job and not discussing it with you or having a plan. That wouldn't be fair to any of us."

Clearly, how wrong was I about the the inability to opt out.....

[labug]

That's why I'm so verbal about honoring emotions (I didn't say acting on them). Once you start blunting one emotion, they all begin to die out.

Even anger - once a person has figured out how to manage it appropriately.....

Just to clarify, I don't think blunting or ignoring emotions is a good thing. Learning to recognize them, feel them, honor them but not allow them to control us is the key.

Our emotions bring important information to us.

Yep, in the grand scheme of things none of them were life altering. Just had piled up so I had to take the all important "Pause" I think you called it in a earlier post.

There was a time many moons ago where I would not have handled it in the same way (read poorly) but now did much of what you indicated above - closed the windows, started dinner, played with the kids for a few minutes and thanked the W for mowing the lawn....

And miraculously, things didn't get any worse and I didn't have to apologize for any of my actions.......

This echoes a lot of my latest post.

Pause may be the most powerful word in our language.

About her opting out...you've opted in (I know, it's shaky at times) and that choice means you'll continue to act with honor and dignity because that's who you are.

[SemperFi00]

Thanks labug. Appreciate your interest and for saying what you did regarding honor and dignity.

[SemperFi00]

Haven't posted in a couple of days. Nothing much has changed. I continue with GAL and PMA and W continues her journey.

Last weekend she went her sister's. I stayed at home w/boys - watched a comedy with them Sat night and built a raised bed garden w/S16 Sat aft. Getting the plans and materials for the bed was lots of fun and the movie was good. I really enjoy time with them. W met us at mass on Sunday morning.....

This weekend we have a couple of graduation parties to attend and I am hoping to get the soil in the new bed and some planting done. S16 is at a birthday party tonight for a friend who is moving over the summer. S18 doesn't want to go to the graduation parties tomorrow but I think it will be good for him to come with us.

Golf scramble coming up on the 27th. Annual event to support the local high school football team.

Oh, and the high school coach just called to tell me that he saw S16 in the weight room and that he seems to be growing. Thought that was nice.....

Wish things could be a little better (on the R front w/W) but it's where I am right now.

Stay strong!

[SemperFi00]

Journaling…..

Last weekend was good

Couple of graduation parties on Sat that we went to as a ‘family’ and it was altogether awkward

Worked with S17 to come to agreement that he could skip the first party (he used to be good friends w/graduate but they moved about 40 minutes away and he hasn’t really seen him in 3-4 years) and attend the second one. He came to party with understanding that I would take him home anytime he was ready –ended up staying for almost 5 hours!!! Yeah for that – he’s very introverted so I think the social aspect was very good for him. And I am very proud of him for going to the party and sticking it out for an extended period of time – he actually had fun although I am sure that is something he hates to have to admit…….

Father’s Day went to church, added the soil to the bed we built last weekend and planted. S16 was very excited and appreciative.

This weekend going on a ½ day Father’s Day fishing trip and have a golf scramble that I am playing in the following Friday.

Nothing much changing w/W. Her fuse continues to be short when things don’t work out (like with the mower, kids not doing what she asks, etc….) and it seems to be almost painful for her to do even the simple things you would do with a roommate (telling them good morning, etc…).

Ugh! I realize that I can’t solve for W but really [censored] to see her continuing to be unhappy……. Maybe she really is depressed but if so I really wish she could see her way to getting some help......

Hope everyone is doing well.

[labug]

It's good that you supported your son and accept him as he is. There's nothing wrong with being an introvert.

Too many people try to change introverts when there is no need to change us. We'll rule the world someday!

Great book, Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking

[SemperFi00]

Getting something down here so that maybe typing it out will remove it from being a distraction – sometimes that works, sometimes not……

S9 this morning was looking for something to eat and asked W to help – I was in the kitchen so offered and he because upset saying “not you”. I offered again and then quietly left him there telling him that if he needed help he could come and tell me.

W came into the kitchen and began saying to him that others could help, that he hurt my feelings which was not very nice and the he should apologize, that he wouldn’t like being treated that way by his friends and that it wasn’t very nice to hurt people and be mean…

I was in the office drinking a big ‘ol glass of STFU but was thinking to myself – hello pot, this is kettle.

Can WAS really be that disconnected and not see that the very things she is talking about to him can be applied to their own actions……

There it is out and down on paper so maybe I will be a bit less distracted…….

Thanks in advance for any commentary – or 2x4s!

[labug]

Wow, I saw that interaction very differently.

[ces67]

Care to expand, LaBug?

[SemperFi00]

hey labug, have been a little tied up at work the last couple of days.

I know my description is a little light on the details - Can you share a bit more on what you saw differently in the interaction? you know I always appreciate your perspective and 2x4s when warranted.

I think that it is great that W continues to work w/S9 on his reactions - the apraxia sometimes requires a little extra effort in this area both with us and in his interactions with peers.

We both work with him on this type of stuff so that's not an issue.

I didn't say anything but I was also a little puzzled on the disconnect I mentioned above.

[labug]

SF had mentioned earlier that he thought W might have been speaking disrespectfully about him to the kids. I was surprised to find that she was being very respectful and loving, although a bit shaming.

We all (most of us) walk around disconnected, in a fog, asleep, until we have some kind of awakening. Then we might become more introspective, willing to face our demons or we might just get more p!ssed off. We get to make that choice.

In the height of my "troubles" I knew I was unhappy and that I had interactions after which I thought, "wish I hadn't said that" but I never thought of myself as an ogre or a truly bad person. (sometimes I had those thoughts but I knew at my core I wasn't. All that goes way deeper than this discussion)

I'm pretty sure my H didn't wake up every day and think: Another Day in the Life of this Passive Conflict-Avoider. He was just being who he was.

I now have a very different perspective and can see the hurtful things I did and in some cases, why. I can be honest about my actions but I wasn't a bad person, I was doing the best I could at the time. Not an excuse, just the truth, that's all I had.

In the moment, before BD would you have described yourself the same way you would today? Have you thought to yourself, or of yourself: Well, I'm the pot calling the kettle black.

I wrote this on Maybell's thread yesterday: People who make us crazy are usually a good mirror, as they're reflecting something in us that we don't like. When someone triggers me these days, my first thought (well, maybe second) is hmmm, there's something I need to work on. I don't try to fix them, I work on fixing me.
(currently I'm practicing this a lot with my S21)

I'm not sure how clear this will be to others. Difficult concepts.

[labug]

I could have connected this better.

Those triggers are my "pot calling the kettle black moments" but we can only recognize that in ourselves.

It all circles back to, we can only fix ourselves. So when I lok at someone else and want to judge I have to ask myself, What is it of me that I see in them?

[labug]

What's up, SF?

[SemperFi00]

Hey labug, it's been awhile. Bad choice on my part I think.

Still trying to maintain as things continue to develop...... some good some not so good.

Will add more details later.....

[SemperFi00]

Ran across this and adding here to my thread as a reminder to myself.......

Be prepared to be painted as the bad guy. It's how they justify their behavior. Because if you weren't so terrible, then they'd be terrible people for doing this to a decent person. Can't have that, so they demonize us.

Don't take her actions personally.

Someone said, I think the wise Sandi2: "Q-TIP" =
Quit
Taking
It
Personally.

Most of the time, it's not really about you, it's ALL ABOUT THEM.

[SemperFi00]

Couple of quick updates on situation since last post……..

Adoption of nephew was finalized (in Aug)

W initiated paperwork for D a few days ago – I think it’s called an intent to file – even though this was just a piece of paper it brought up many of the “old” hurt feelings again which really [censored]! Nice holiday timing for that btw……..

In-laws were up for TGiving and we had an enjoyable day at SIL’s house (even though we were without power due to the snowstorm)

S16 and I traveled over the weekend to KC for the Sun football game (annual thing we started a couple of years ago to attend 1x a year – trying to make it to all stadiums eventually). Flt got delayed so we couldn’t come back until Tues but that just added to the adventure. In laws even waited at our arrival gate at the airport to tell us good bye

While in KC also got to visit with some friends that we setup up on a blind date more than 20 years ago. Have kids around the same ages and we used to vacation with them every year. While we were there it was painful to have S16 ask why we don’t do that anymore – no good answer for a 16 year old……… It was both fun (and a painful reminder) to catch up with them.


ugh - have I mentioned before how much I don't like this and all the pain it is causing???

[SemperFi00]

I have thought about the reason why the piece of paper bothers me so much and the only thing that I can come up with is because it is an action vs W saying that she was going to do something.

Seems a little silly though - does that may any sense to anyone else? anyone else experience something similar.

At the end of the day it's not like the M we have had for the past few years has been strong or what I want....

[SemperFi00]

Couple of things have been rattling around my head the past days so trying to get them down here to see if there is any perspective from some of the vets or if it helps just to get them written down somewhere

- trying to stay focused on the fact that a failed marriage doesn't necessarily mean that I have to do through the rest of my life w/o a meaningful relationship and someone to share my life with.

- trying very hard to not feel guilty or like a failure due to the fact that W is not willing/able to try and repair the R. that truly is her choice that she gets to make and at some point will have to deal with (as much pain as it causes me and others it still is her choice)

I know these things intellectually but at times still can't quite shake the "feelings" described above......

I guess that's just part of the process and healing that needs to take place.

Stay strong and best wishes to all who find themselves in these situations.......

[bravo61]

i feel your pain SempFi. i feel your pain...
praying for ya.

[SemperFi00]

Thanks bravo61. Appreciate the sentiment and the prayers… will try to check out your situation over the next couple of days.

Posting and reading here has been helpful for me throughout this journey. Still backslide every now and then but knowing that there are others going through similar (and in some cases worse) situations is comforting and provides perspective.

The suggestions/opinions from those further along are also very helpful.

Thoughts and prayers with all here. Stay strong!

[labug]

I've wondered how things were with you. Of course the intent to file was a jolt, you've both been in holding pattern for what, a year.

What's good about this that you want to hold on to?

- trying to stay focused on the fact that a failed marriage doesn't necessarily mean that I have to do through the rest of my life w/o a meaningful relationship and someone to share my life with.

Tough question: what have you changed about you that will be attractive to the kind of woman you might may be interested in?

trying very hard to not feel guilty or like a failure due to the fact that W is not willing/able to try and repair the R. that truly is her choice that she gets to make and at some point will have to deal with (as much pain as it causes me and others it still is her choice)

You're not a failure. The marriage failed. Learn from this and if you haven't let go, do.

On these boards oftentimes the LBS gets to the point when they're done, understandably. We pat them on the back, support them, etc. The reality is, the WAS got there, too. Just before we did.

She's not doing this TO you or the kids. She doesn't seem from what you've written, like a mean, destructive person. She's just done.

Let her be done.

I know these things intellectually but at times still can't quite shake the "feelings" described above......

And that's OK, but they don't have to define you. Recognize that you feel sad, are grieving. I have a "feeling" that you've lived much of your life very out of touch with your feelings.

Get to know yourself.

I guess that's just part of the process and healing that needs to take place.

mmm-Hmmm

((( )))

[SemperFi00]

labug, thanks for your comments. Will come back and comment on some of those points a little later.

Below is the text that I just received from W.

"Hi there - I just got a phone call from my attorney. First I owe you a huge apology. I truly thought that they would contact me before they sent letters. I would never have let you be blind sided. Anyway, obviously a lot for us to discuss. I don't want to do it through text or phone. I will call you after work. I am very sorry."

Arghh!!! How can this train be stopped and get W to realize the impact this will have on everyone and the difficulty/complexity it will introduce into all our lives.....

Can she really not see that there are options other than D????

Feels like another kick in the gut - ugh!

[SemperFi00]

ugh!!!! trying to get focused but that text is not helping and not at all what I needed while traveling on a business trip. WTH!!!

not quite sure how to respond to the text. options for consideration are below:

1. Thx - looking forward to the conversation
2. WTH - stop the madness and get your head screwed on straight
3. Thx for the update - appreciate your concern but I will be fine. Sorry that you feel this is what you must do but certainly understand that you are sad where you are at. And I don't like seeing you like that.
4. No response at all and wait for her to call to initiate the conversation.

Comments or 2x4s welcome! Have I mentioned before that I don't like this feeling.

Does it get easier once she completes the filing and the legal system begins to move forward?????

Arghhhh!!!! Leaving for St.Lucia for a month seems very appealing........ maybe a could get a job as a bartender!

[labug]

It won't get easier until you let it go.

Response: Thanks.

[Rick1963]

Can she really not see that there are options other than D????

I am sorry to say but no she sees no other options. The WAS is not concerned at this time with consequences. Like Labug said, she had a head start over you and how she feels about it. They plan this in advance either consciously or unconsciously. Your expectations are hurting you. For me it got easier when it was all said and done and she moved out. And it continues to get easier as my life normalizes...
As for the text, wait for her to call you. it sounds like you are sitting home waiting for to change her mind. You need to GAL my friend.

[SemperFi00]

It won't get easier until you let it go.

Though that I had - until I got the letter. And at the end of the day that is really just a piece of paper and a formality. At this point the M/R hasn't been what either of us has wanted for quite some time.

Still [censored].

I guess maybe what I had really done was adjusted to the way things were - wanted them to be different and willing to try things to make that happen. But I guess had adjusted/settled for how things were?

Patiently waiting in the hopes that something would create positive momentum while at the same time trying to pick up the pieces and move on.

Response: Thanks.

I know that this probably the best response - then deal with what comes next.

Rick, have been doing much better with the GAL and moving forward with my own life (I think - hopefully this is just a momentary back slide). Think I was actually doing better with GAL, and changing things I wanted to change before the letter and the recent text. Will share more on that later.... And open to more suggestions.

Encouraging to know that potentially gets better once the process actually starts. Although her expectation is that I would leave the house and find a new place. Seems like an additional complication to try adn remain detached when continuing to live in the same household and sleep in the same bed. No real animosity, anger, spew, A........ bleech! - hate sounding this needy........

Maybe part of why this is having such an impact right now is because I am traveling for business so out of my normal environment?

[SemperFi00]

Journaling a couple of things from a GAL / gratitude perspective

Maybe seeing it written down will add perspective and keep some of the feelings in check…………. I think everything also seems a bit worse because of the holiday season right now……

- Sun night. Football awards banquet for local hs team – great to see all the kids back together again for some good story sharing and food. Nice to see that being involved in coaching them really does make a difference

- Sun aft. Spent a couple of hours with S9 decorating a small Christmas specifically for his bedroom. He had to carefully inspect and place each ornament but it was fun to just spend the time with him. S9 also helped me take the screens out of the window to get ready for additional decorating. W made comment to s18 about s9 having “lots of daddy time” today. Made me feel good.

- Couple of weekends ago had a great weekend trip with S16. Visited KC to attend the Den/KC game. Also got to visit with family friends we used to vacation with – see previous post

- Traveled safely from New Eng to Southwest for business meetings. Safety always a plus…

- Had dinner last night with sister, her husband and nephews. Great to be able to fit that in during trip.

- Joined a 15 min mindfulness meditation at lunch today. Nice to work for an employer who provides that as a benefit. In fact, nice to be employed.

- Yesterday received pretty good news on year end bonus front

- Hoping to see sister and nephews again this evening and maybe go with them to pick out a Christmas tree. That should be a lot of fun!

There is some good stuff ^^^^ and I need to try and stay focused on those things and continuing to move forward.

Seems like the M/R is always somewhere in the background lurking around though ……… I don’t think I am quite as obsessed about it as may last couple of posts seemed.

Maybe the combination of the traveling and the text triggered some feelings for a couple of hours????

[SemperFi00]

updated profile information to reflect recent developments and ages.....

[SemperFi00]

Poking around and found an old quote from Coach that really seemed to speak to me. Copying here to potentially remind myself.

Guilt is when you feel bad about something you did (behavior). It's normal and healthy in the right amounts.

Shame is when you feel bad because you think there is something wrong with you. If only I was better, more lovable, smarter, better looking, made more money, skinnier, etc then she/he would love me. So the self talk is I have a flaw that precludes me from being loved. This leads to pessimistic thinking, co-dependence, anger, and catastrophising.

There is nothing wrong with you. Have you made mistakes, sure. Who on this earth hasn't. Nothing wrong with making mistakes, it's how you recover. Start by loving yourself enough to forgive yourself for the mistakes you have made. Who would want to love you if you don't love yourself? BTW this will help you detach.

The part that resonated was the part about shame - particularly about the self-talk around flaws.

Any suggestions on how to deal / tame the shame beast?

[Wet]

Thanks Semper Fi for digging Coach's quote up. Yes, I agree, it is very helpful. I am sorry I do not have any suggestions for taming the shame beast, but I'm hoping we can learn together better techniques.

[SemperFi00]

No problem Wet. Thanks for taking an interest in my thread.

Not sure how to tame the shame beast and honestly before finding this earlier today not sure I ever really thought of how I was feeling the context of shame.

Most times just in teh context of not being worthy and trying to focus on what things I could do to better myself. Probably a very helpful approach to identify opportunities for improvement until a person goes overboard with it (i.e. where I am at with it now).

W has yet to be able to really articulate (and I am reluctantly coming to the conclusion that she may not even know herself) what happened and why she is so convinced that her inability to be happy will be cured by no longer being married to me. Maybe just typical confusion and part of the story for WAS????

Her only comment is that she started down a path of self-discovery with a T to try and understand why she is not happy. Even though she has everything that she could want...... Right now she is at a place where she believes that her unhappiness has been caused by her constant focus on pleasing others and trying to make others happy at the expense of knowing who she really is.

And now for the first time in a long time she has her "voice" and knows that she can't become who she wants to be while married to me. In one of her analogies she compared herself to an alcoholic and I am the bottle of alcohol that she cannot resist.......

What???? Ugh, have to stop typing for a few minutes and try to collect my thoughts......

Not even sure that this is coherent at the moment - does W comments make sense to anyone else out there or is this typical WAS confusion/crazy logic???

Maybe I am just too close to this right now to be able to understand.......

Thoughts and prayers with all here - Stay strong!

[bravo61]

Read my sitch. My XW has found herself and that's why she can't be with me. Whatever the hell that means

[SemperFi00]

Thanks for checking in bravo61. Will take a look at your sitch today.

Sounds eerily familiar unfortunately. would love to really know what that statement means - or is it just part of the script to help WAS somehow feel better about decisions they are making and the impact those decisions will have.

I have talked with my T (who the hell ever thought I would need one of those btw) and his perception is that W is growing/maturing and is doing that by pushing against me. Somehow through our R I became like a father figure to her (because I took care of her, took on solving many of her problems, dealt with some of her conflicts she didn't want to handle, etc....) and now she is rebelling against that.

I thought that I was doing a good thing and helping her but if he is right apparently not. Hard to tell completely though because he is not speaking directly with her. Just an impression he has developed from our conversations.....

Not sure if that is similar to your world or not - will catch up later today.....

Stay strong!

[labug]

Your wife's statements make sense to me. But more importantly, they make sense to her.

Do you see how you disparage her, even now? She can't possibly be unhappy, you gave her everything she needed!!!! Right?

SF, I think I've been with you sense the beginning. Give your W the benefit of the doubt. Love her enough to let her go.

I know that's a tall order but you can do it.

Good luck.

[SemperFi00]

labug - thanks for continuing to follow along.

Your wife's statements make sense to me. But more importantly, they make sense to her.

I get that the important thing is that they make sense to her right now. Please help me understand if you can - I believe that having a better understanding in this are would help in my efforts at detachment. At least I think so - but then again maybe not.

Do you see how you disparage her, even now? She can't possibly be unhappy, you gave her everything she needed!!!! Right?

I think that you are referring to my comments below - I could have been more clear in my post. I don't want to seem disparaging at all.

Clearly something is missing from her happiness or she wouldn't be where she is at. That may be something from R with me or it may be something entirely different.

These were W's comments and what she was saying about herself. Also started initiatl conversations with T by stating that she was "broken" and wantd to be fixed.

Not my words - not sure if that changes anything with your comments??

Her only comment is that she started down a path of self-discovery with a T to try and understand why she is not happy. Even though she has everything that she could want...... Right now she is at a place where she believes that her unhappiness has been caused by her constant focus on pleasing others and trying to make others happy at the expense of knowing who she really is.

And now for the first time in a long time she has her "voice" and knows that she can't become who she wants to be while married to me. In one of her analogies she compared herself to an alcoholic and I am the bottle of alcohol that she cannot resist.......

Don't really like the alcohol analogy and I believe that it is possible to have a voice as an individual and balance that with also being a mother and a spouse....

SF, I think I've been with you sense the beginning. Give your W the benefit of the doubt. Love her enough to let her go.

Bless you for continuing to follow along - really appreciate the interest and commentary. I am trying really hard to get (and stay) in the place you describe above.

[SemperFi00]

Couple of texts from W today - journaling here to try and help in processing

- 1st text. W called for Dr appt and had to update primary care assignment - previous one had retired. Took the time to update mine also to same person and sent text telling me. And that I could always change if I wanted someone different. Response: Ok. Sounds good. Thanks.

- 2nd text was about sheriff serving D paperwork to house. S18 was home from school and was aware, W told him that it was related to adoption paperwork for S9. In text again said so sorry things have happened the way they have. No response from me on this one yet.

here are some I am considering:

1. Thanks.
2. I am sorry also. Thanks for letting me know.
3. Thanks. We can talk more when I am back from TX.
4. Thanks. Why did you feel the need to hide this from S18?
5. Thanks. Maybe if this is so hard for you, it means that there is something worth exploring further before continuing down this road.
6. No response
7. Scathing response - but wpwould be inappropriate to write here and would be largely ineffective anyway......... May produce a very short-lived "feel good" moment. Long run wouldn't be worth it though..

Comments and 2x4s appreciated. Be gentle! - part of this is just sharing here to help with what I will actually do

[SemperFi00]

morning everyone. hope all are doing their best under the circumstances that find you here.

- had dinner w/sister and her family last night. nice to be able to do that while in town for business.
- everyone too tired to get Xmas tree which would have been fun so sister and I went gift shopping for my boys and hers. nice to be able to buy gift versus mailing a gift card
- ended up going with #6 in terms of response to last text from W. the more that I though about the less it seemed any response was necessary at this point. called last night to tell everyone good night and she acted like all was fine.

still find myself cycling through a mix of emotions but doing much better at letting them just happen. almost like an outsider looking in and observing if that makes any sense.

if I am being honest, would still like to find some way to connect with W and help her understand that there are other alternatives but at this point I have no expectation that will happen.

don't like the situation I find myself in but trying to keep in mind that I have no idea what the future will bring and that things can always get better!

[labug]

I think that you are referring to my comments below - I could have been more clear in my post. I don't want to seem disparaging at all.

No, my basis for that comment was from reading your sitch all along. It seems that you were very satisfied in your life before the BD and it baffles you that W wasn't. That's a red flag right there that you were so disconnected from each other that you couldn't see her unhappiness and she couldn't share it with you.

It's difficult because you see no need to change anything, she clearly wishes something was different but seems to have not shared that with you and now just wants out.

I know you're in pain about this but you can't fix her and this is about her and her unhappiness.

Refresh my memory, have you had a talk with her about any of this? Would you? And if so what would you say?

[SemperFi00]

Providing additional commentary in response to a couple of your recent posts.

No, my basis for that comment was from reading your sitch all along. It seems that you were very satisfied in your life before the BD and it baffles you that W wasn't. That's a red flag right there that you were so disconnected from each other that you couldn't see her unhappiness and she couldn't share it with you.

Thanks for clarification labug. Couple of other red flags that this comment stirs up – some going all the way back to when we were first dating and engaged:

W statement – “You are the first person I have ever been involved with that I don’t have to take care of….”
- helped raise step brother once her mom and step dad got together,
- best friend in high school got pregnant and the F left – she & friend raised the child;
- after high school she lived with a guy with kids, eventually he moved and she dropped out of college to go with him to take care of him and the kids
W statement – “You are the first person I have ever dated who hasn’t been a loser”
- For a few months her sister was almost always with us to ensure that I didn’t turn out to be another “bad person”
W statement – “I didn’t like you when I first met you. Too arrogant and just out of Marine Corps”
W statement recently – “I will always be thankful to you for giving me my boys”
According to W, F was alcoholic with a temper. At best was emotionally distant, may have been abusive but not sure.

Holy crap~! – combined with the recent observations from my T can’t help but ask the question did she just want someone to take care of her and help her raise a family???? And now she is done?

Not looking for very promising when all written out…………

Tough question: what have you changed about you that will be attractive to the kind of woman you might may be interested in?

- Less critical of others, including inwardly which I have to assume at some point came thru in outward actions
- More patience with kids in general (more engaged with S8, allowing S16 & S18 to be more responsible for their own actions / consequences and develop their potential)
- Helping out more around the house w/o being asked and trying not to over compensate
- Being more timely for appointments/events
- Exercising on a more regular basis
- Being more responsible for myself (errands, meals, laundry, etc…..)
- Better work/life balance (trying to leave work between 5 & 530 most days versus staying until I feel like I am done working – the work will still be there tomorrow)
- Stop being so tight w/$$$$ and worried about college & retirement – already have a fairly sizable nest egg and well paying job – ahead of the game
- Attending Mass more regularly – had been sporadic for a couple of years once S14 started playing football and games were on Sunday morning
- Daily devotional readings at beginning of each morning

Refresh my memory, have you had a talk with her about any of this? Would you?

Yes, have had conversations on a couple of occasions. W either can’t or won’t (not completely sure which) talk or discuss beyond a superficial level. Feels like there is no way that I could understand. 2-3 comments have been somewhat consistent::
- I lost myself in the M and other relationships by trying to always present a perfect image and do for others. Not your fault and I certainly should have told you but wasn’t even sure what was going on myself
- I am not happy being married to you any longer
- I no longer want you to touch me
- I don’t have “M feelings” for you any longer
Trying to get anywhere beyond the comments above generally just results in her shutting down and becoming angry and threatening D.

And if so what would you say?

Something like below is what I would like to say to W now – I am holding off because I don’t think she is currently in receptive spot. Although on the other hand, I am not sure at this point what I have to lose

"W, you are right I don’t understand completely. I can see how unhappy you currently are and that makes me sad. I understand that you have to continue on your own journey and I do not want to get in the way of that. I wish that there were other alternatives that could be considered that would not be be quite so destructive.

I would like to have an engaged R with a “life” partner and ideally I would like that to be with you if possible."

Lots of typing but good information hopefully……. Thoughts, comments 2x4s welcome………

[Wet]

Semper Fi,

While it was nice for W to let you know the D papers were coming, one option in my state is that you can get the papers directly from your W (or her atty, or anyone else that makes it easier) and then later sign an acknowledgment that you received it.

Her lawyer probably won't like this option, but it is your W's call. When you have a child (ren) around the house, no one likes to have a sheriff at your house serving papers, let alone divorce papers. And don't let her lie about the papers (adoption papers for goodness sake!) So see if she will simply hand you the papers herself, and then let you later sign and return (promptly) the Acknowledgment to her atty. It saves her $$$ having to pay the sheriff to do this, and it lowers your stress level. A win/win for everyone.

[SemperFi00]

Wet, thanks for you comments.

Although she hasn't said anything since I got home last night, my assumption is that she has them somewhere here at the house now.

Maybe not, I just looked at the text again and I guess she doesn't specifically say that. Maybe they will be coming back at some point to deliver again????? Hadn't thought about that as an option.

And I really deplore the idea of lying to children about what is going on........ have been thinking a lot about how to deal with that. I don't want to either directly or indirectly lie about it to S18 who was here - yet I also don't necessarily want to tell them during the holidays.....

I know it is not/was not my choice in timing and that I can't control that - just thinking about the kids and what is best for them.......

Thoughts?

[labug]

As I see it, you're moving into different territory now. She's filed so you need to have your ducks in a row.

This

"W, you are right I don’t understand completely. I can see how unhappy you currently are and that makes me sad. I understand that you have to continue on your own journey and I do not want to get in the way of that.

is a good place to start. Then work together to make this happen in a non-destructive way. DB doesn't mean you lay down and be taken advantage of.

Open a conversation. That's probably a 180 for you.

[labug]

About this

combined with the recent observations from my T can’t help but ask the question did she just want someone to take care of her and help her raise a family???? And now she is done?

Yes!

But I don't think it was a nefarious long-range plan. For most women finding someone who would be a good father is always part of the plan. Did she think "OK, I'll marry this guy, have children with him, adopt his nephew and then dump him"? Highly unlikely. Your W doesn't seem like a conniving person.

IIRC, you might have married her to rescue and take care of her, "father" her. Unless we're really emotionally grounded, most of us marry people who fill a unmet need for us and often our spouses in some way resemble our opposite-sex parent.

Your W has a lot of baggage, as many of us do. Leave her to figure that out.

You can continue working on who you need to be.

[SemperFi00]

As I see it, you're moving into different territory now. She's filed so you need to have your ducks in a row.

This

"W, you are right I don’t understand completely. I can see how unhappy you currently are and that makes me sad. I understand that you have to continue on your own journey and I do not want to get in the way of that.

is a good place to start. Then work together to make this happen in a non-destructive way. DB doesn't mean you lay down and be taken advantage of.

^^^^ is the plan. Let's see how well I can stick to it. The vast majority of the time I want her to be happy - even if that means moving on - and have a great R with the kids. And even some sort of R w/me.

There are times though where I really struggle with that given my deep seated beliefs related to commitment/loyalty/family etc.... At one point she progressed to be on the same page with this but clearly something has happened to change that or something is temporarily block it......

Open a conversation. That's probably a 180 for you.

The whole conversation topic as it relates to our R is one that is very interesting. For many early years, we talked and discussed everything (some things I never would have confided if I had ever thought there was a chance we would have a romantic relationship).

This continued for many years of our M - friends and family often commented about it. Somewhere along the way I guess it slowed way down and since b-date it has been nearly non-existent.

I don't like that but it was what happened and I don't think it was intentional on either part. I guess we just got busy with kids, family, household, career etc.... and figured we would have time together later after the kids were raised...... sad story! I am not angry about the fact that it happened or that feelings changed - like I said before neither of us intended for it to happen, I am frustrated and angry about not doing all we can to move towards developing an engaged R.

The biggest challenge I have right now is my desire to see if we could build something again where we could have that connection and communication...... and balancing that with the fact that W feels is either not possible or would take too much effort.....

[SemperFi00]

Quick recap of the day........

Took car for service at dealership. w asked me to look at car she was interested in. requested style of car she is interested in as courtesy car so she could look at it and test drive.

went as family to get Xmas tree-W's suggestion. Lights and ornaments will be tomorrow. Quickest decision ever on tree and getting it in the stand.

Watched movie at home and ate as family. Very funny movie about fake cops. All laughed and seemed to enjoy.......

All seemed kind of normal except I know she has the papers here at house somewhere. Don't understand how W can ask for my help and suggest family things while also filing for D.

could she really believe that's this how it will be after D?

More tomorrow. Gotta go - very sleepy. Good night all.

[Wet]

Semper Fi,

I think you are amazing. To have a "normal" day with W and your sons with the Divorce papers hanging over your head, shows the sort of strength not many of us have. Keep it up!

[labug]

The biggest challenge I have right now is my desire to see if we could build something again where we could have that connection and communication...... and balancing that with the fact that W feels is either not possible or would take too much effort.....

You can do this, it just might not be as a married couple.

[SemperFi00]

The biggest challenge I have right now is my desire to see if we could build something again where we could have that connection and communication...... and balancing that with the fact that W feels is either not possible or would take too much effort.....

You can do this, it just might not be as a married couple.

Thanks labug. I have been thinking about ^^^^ over the past couple of days. At this point, I am not sure I would want that connection and communication if it was not in the context of committed partnership.

I struggle with whether that feeling is consistent with who I want to be going forward. I realize that things/feelings can certainly change going forward but that is where I am at right now.

At some level I don't like that I feel that way about W but I am not sure how (or even how likely it would be) to be have a non-intimate R with someone I have shared so much.

Thanks for the thought provoking comments.

[SemperFi00]

Couple of updates.........

- things continue about the same as before, somewhat normal except for that fact that W has D papers somewhere in the house.
- have continued decorating a little bit each night with the boys and occasionally W will poke her head in and see how it is going
- was asked to be part of the coaching staff for an all-Star fball team here and we have the "draft" for that tonight. Will be good to see everyone tonight.

not feeling very balanced right now. feeling very frustrated and want very much to call W and say give me the papers now and let's get this bus moving somewhere - too emotional to do it now so writing here instead...... also why ruin Xmas for the kids be reacting now - I've made it this far right????

Wonder if W is waiting until after Xmas to give me the paperwork for the same reason?

arrrgghhhh!!!!

[SemperFi00]

Merry (belated) Christmas to all here!!

Checking in since it has been a couple of weeks since my last post........

Have had some time off from work which has been good and bad - good because getting to spend time with kids and relaxing: bad because without the routine of work there has been plenty of time for thinking about the situation and all of what is to come........

On a grading scale I would give myself a C+ or maybe B- in the areas of maintaining detachment and GALing. I think that W and I continuing to remain in the same house makes it even more difficult....

[SemperFi00]

Holidays so far have been good but kind of weird at the same time.

Have really enjoyed some time off work and hanging out with the boys - watching movies, playing games. Nothing huge just hanging and spending time together.

Got asked to help coach state All-Star football game. Very excited about that. Had draft for that event and completing some paperwork now - game is not until June but expect it to be a lot of fun.

Went to couple friends house on Xmas eve. W's comment was "XX is having some people over and I assumed you would want to go. I want to go early and not stay too late". These were very close friends of ours that we did alot with pre-B date (vacations, movies, etc.....). At that party W seemed normal self - laughing, telling stories, etc.....

W's sister and family came to our house for Xmas day dinner and was good to see all the nieces and nephews. W's brother also came over. All seemed like old (pre-B times) except for the fact that both and W and her S are planning their exit from the families. Still seems weird to me that at time they can act like all is good but have this whole other thing going on........

W wants new car and asked me yesterday to go with her to look at one. At least I think that she asked me in a kind of round about way. She announced to everyone a couple of days back that she wanted to get it done by the end of the year - yesterday she said she was going to test drive, S16 said he wanted to go also and W said to me that I was more than welcome to go also. I think that in the current situation, that is her way of asking me to go without feeling dependant upon me. Thoughts?????

Still nothing on paperwork that was served to house mid-Dec while I was out of town. Asked W about the Sat after I returned and she said she would give it me later that evening. No mention since - I have not asked because I don't want to encourage any further action.

Not sure if this is the correct approach - not sure what is in the paperwork and if there is a pending court date or not.

Thoughts, comments, 2x4s welcome and appreciated......

Happy New Year's to everyone here. Stay strong!!!!

[SemperFi00]

Morning all and Happy New Year!

Sense a little change in W's demeanor but (now) know enough and am detached enough to not let it get me too excited... damn those silly expectations when that happens. the key word in ^^^^ is "too"

Yesterday went to see T for first time in probably 5-6 weeks (he had been out with surgery). Although nothing concrete I can really point to, feel good to talk to him.

T told me that it seemed like I was more relaxed than I had been and stated that from his perspective he believes W probably felt emotionally disconnected from me and that I was likely a hard person to get to know on an emotional level.

Seems like I always focus on what should be done/what is right/what is responsible, etc..... Need to think about this a bit more because at least initially acting this way seems like the appropriate/mature thing to do (oops guess there I go again.............)

He gave me a technique to try - when engaging with W rather than trying to solve, rationalize, explain. Just tell her how I am feeling and then stop - wait for her reaction and see how things go.

will try but the logical and problem solving approach is so easy and natural (and worked for quite some time)....

ugh!

[SemperFi00]

Posting to try and get some emotions and thoughts under control.....

Just called the courts directly and found out the first appearance is scheduled for 01/07/15. Still nothing from W and has not given me the paperwork that was served to house while I was out of town.....

Really????? After 20+ years I don't deserve better than this? Crazy making.

Ugh!!!! Stupid expectations sneaking in under the radar again I guess.

Want so bad to confront her but given how I am feeling right now I don't think that would accomplish anything positive. Is it possible that she really has her head in the sand about this?

Why do I feel like I have to drive/initiate this if W is the one who wants it so badly. Seems very unfair! Aren't we eventually going to need to have a grown up conversation about how W proposes things will be in the future???

Part of me wants to just not mention it to her and see what happens - who knows maybe she really has blocked it out and won't even show up......

WTH?!?!?!?

Thoughts/comments/guidance appreciated......

[SemperFi00]

Is it possible that W (or STBXW now?) is trying to set me up?

That would be despicable - but I guess not outside the realm of possibility......

At some point, given that we have children to consider don't we have to have an adult conversation about this situation. Or is she just content to let things meander along?

I don't want to have to be the one driving the process - especially since I don't want the D in the first place.

Very angry right now that W has forced/initiated this situation but seems in an almost sneaky way.

And yet there is a part of me (that is dwindling) that still feels some compassion for her and believes that inside she must feel horrible about the way she is doing this.......

ugh! I am all over the place right now........

[labug]

Anything's possible.

Your mind is creating a lot of anxiety right now. Why not just ask her?

[Sotto]

I agree. Your mind is working overtime here! Just have a think about what information you need here, and pleasantly ask for it..

[SemperFi00]

Thanks for the comments. I realize I am in hyper overdrive right.

Glad I am at work and not at home while I try to get that under control......

The problem is that right now I am not even sure what information I need, or if I even need anything directly from W.

Called the courts and they explained that nothing needs to be prepared for the first hearing. It is just informational and helps to explain the process..... I also spoke with a L for the second time about 3-4 weeks ago (1st time was almost 2 years ago).

Just very frustrated about how she is handling it. If this is the best solution - looking at it thru any lens (spiritually, emotionally, for the kids, practically, etc...) - then why not own the decision, be upfront and communicate?

In other words, act like an adult and deal with the conflict and uncomfortableness you are creating. I realize while I am typing it that statement sounds judgmental - so at some level I am expecting 2x4s. Please be gentle!

I also know that what I described has not historically been our dynamic - and I generally have fallen into the trap of being the one who dealt with the conflicts. I just don't think I want to do it for this particular situation.......

Meanwhile in bizzaro world, she is still looking to buy a new car - asking for my opinion and checking in about thoughts and decisions she has around it. WTF?????

A large part of me wants to just leave and start over again somewhere new without all of this...... but that sounds very cowardly when I type it out and is not at all the kind of person I am / want to be......

Thanks again for checking in. Any and all comments welcome.

Just don't

[labug]

Is this how you handled things with her before, guilty until proven innocent?

How has she created your uncomfortableness? It seems like your mind is doing a pretty good job of that.

"and I generally have fallen into the trap of being the one who dealt with the conflicts. I just don't think I want to do it for this particular situation......"

Why? This has to do with the rest of your life. It's easy to stand on the sidelines and watch things happen and then when it doesn't go as we would have liked, say "Well, I could see that coming. I would have done it much differently and things would be better now." Keeps us innocent and smelling like a rose. Also keeps our ego intact. Been there, done that.

What kinds of traps have you fallen into? Explain that more because it seems a bit different from what I remember you saying in the past.

I'm not sure your second sentence is 100% true. I think you're trying to control an outcome. See smelling like a rose above.

What say you?

[SemperFi00]

Thansk for the comments labug - really appreciate your continued interest....

Is this how you handled things with her before, guilty until proven innocent?

not sure what you mean here?? I think that I am trying very hard not to accuse her of anything. Trying to remain as abjective as possible.

How has she created your uncomfortableness? It seems like your mind is doing a pretty good job of that.

Yes, clearly on Fri my mind was doing a masterful job in this area. I felt better later in the evening and thru the weekend until later this afternoon. As the day has gone on today, I can feel the aniexty building. So far, have been able to handle it ok and am maintaining PMA/GAL, Trying to figure out the right words to ask her about the upcoming court appearance on Wed but so far nothing.......

"and I generally have fallen into the trap of being the one who dealt with the conflicts. I just don't think I want to do it for this particular situation......"

Why? This has to do with the rest of your life. It's easy to stand on the sidelines and watch things happen and then when it doesn't go as we would have liked, say "Well, I could see that coming. I would have done it much differently and things would be better now." Keeps us innocent and smelling like a rose. Also keeps our ego intact. Been there, done that.

Agree, I am more than willing to own my part and improve things that I have control over. What I am not interested is doing is leading us through a D process that I am don't want. My point is that she initiated the process with a L, has the paperwork and even though I have asked has not shared it with me. Beginning to seem like a familiar pattern, leaving me to work through the details and finish the process. thus my comment, about her owning what she started.

Maybe my feeling in this area is partially influenced by past examples though.

What kinds of traps have you fallen into? Explain that more because it seems a bit different from what I remember you saying in the past.

What I meant with this statement was that I was typically the one who dealt with any conflicts - not between us but with others. In other words any of the tough decisions/conversations were primarily mine.

I think that's a dangerous trap for 1 member of a R to fall into and may have helped contribute to some level of a parent/child R versus 2 adults on equal footing.

Does that help clarify? Can you share a little more about what were you remembering differently?

I'm not sure your second sentence is 100% true. I think you're trying to control an outcome. See smelling like a rose above

Which 2nd sentence - can you add some clarity on this comment?

[SemperFi00]

Journaling a bit from weekend events ......

- Mass Sun morning, normal weekly event - W attended and seemed to be participating
- S16 had a friend at house for most of the weekend, took him home yesterday and stopped at mall on way with the two of them and just wandered around checking things out. First BWW experience, couple of apps and watched some NFL pre-game
- Sat was just normal stuff around house and errands
- Fri night watched new Denzel Washington movie as a family, good movie and everyone seemed to enjoy
- Cowboys advanced in the playoffs thankfully (on to Green Bay)


W has MRI for her knee scheduled for tomorrow and has taken the day off from teaching.......

Weekend ended up not being too stressful even though I was feeling a little anxious leaving work on Friday. Trying to remember that as a lesson moving forward......

Still no discussion about upcoming initial court date on Wed. I know that is just an initial appearance where the process is explained and the next step scheduled but still feeling a little bit of anxiety around it.

arghh!!!

[SemperFi00]

Have been thinking more and more about upcoming court date on Wed and what I "need" from W in advance.....

Given that the first session is "informational" according to who I contacted at the courts, I think at this point I have what I "need" at this point.

I think that it is just that I would have preferred to have had W tell me about the date/time and provide me with the paperwork. Seems odd that she didn't but now that I know I know right?

Is there something that I may be missing though - anyone with experience??

At some point, seems like we have to have a discussion about parenting plan, asset division, etc.... but does seem like that information is needed for Wed so I guess it can wait right?

[SemperFi00]

Any thoughts on how to ask W to begin to contribute $$$ to joint account? Maybe something like:

"W, I appreciate the fact that you wrote a check a few days ago to cover income tax impact of recent inheritence. I feel like it would be helpful if you would begin to contribute some amount of $$$ each month towards the monthly expenses?"

In hindsight, seems like I should have done this months ago and just never did. Timing now may be an issue.

Thoughts/comments?

[SemperFi00]

Ok, so could use some help on a proposed response……

W left me a vmail at work saying she went by L’s office to sign ppwk and was informed of court date tomorrow. Wants to know if I am going or not? Also stated that she couldn’t find ppwk at the house so she assumes I found it in her dresser and took it.

My response:

“W, certainly planning on attending. Sorry that you cannot find what you are looking for but I can assure that I do not have the paper work and did not take it from wherever you had it. I had actually been wondering for the past couple of days why you hadn’t said something about the date – feels like we both had assumptions/expectations that weren’t shared well.

We have both done some growing and seems like it would be good to have a short discussion a little later tonight about the direction we are headed and how we can move forward.”

Want so bad to express anger over the accusation I must have went through her things and taken the ppwk but in reality what I really think that I feel is just sadness. About the situation overall, the fact she really understands so little about what she has started that she didn’t even know about the court date tomorrow and about the fact that she thinks so poorly of me right now that she would accuse me of looking through her things to find the paperwork.

Anyway back to what I can influence…… Any thoughts/comments on the proposed response above?

Thanks in advance for any help.

[SemperFi00]

So just got this text from W.

"Who knows what I did with it. Do you want to meet after work?"

Really??? Thinking about how I would like to respond to that.....

Any help/suggestions would be appreciated

[Wonka]

Thanks for getting back to me on this. Sure, can meet you after work. See ya soon.

[SemperFi00]

Thanks Wonka for the comment.

Thanks for getting back to me on this. Sure, can meet you after work. See ya soon.

Short and sweet I like it and know that is the right approach.

A little afraid that I am letting expectations creep in, thinking that because she didn't know about the date tomorrow means that she is still unsure. I know that is probably cr!p and not at all where she is at.

Part of me also just wants to hug her and let her know that it will all be alright and that I will take care of it. I realize that this is how I "helped" her with any conflict/tough discussions in the past which likely contributed to an "uneven" dynamic in our R.

So tough to keep expectations at bay!

bleech!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SemperFi00]

Here is the latest text back from my response.......

Me: Thanks for getting back to me on this. Sure, can meet you after work. See ya soon.

W: "@ home now. We can talk here, just don't want to involve the kids. Is there anyway you can take off the second part of tomorrow? I thought we could talk."


Really - don't want to involve the kids?? My guess is there might be a little impact for them from here decision (he said dripping with sarcasm).

And not like I can just take off work whenever I feel like it. I guess this is just how she views reality now and I certainly have no control over that.

Too bad this doesn't appear to be some RomCom that will have a happy ending in about 1.5 hours......

[Wonka]

And?? What do you want to do, SF?

[SemperFi00]

Scream, kick, yell, punch a heavy bag all come to mind. after that is done I will feel better and the question will be "now what?"

The way that I see it there are a couple of ways to approach

1. Try to arrange schedule so that I have the afternoon off tomorrow to hear what she has to say and become more informed about where her thinking is at currently after we get through the initial court date. The caution in this approach is not letting expectations build up or to trying to solve the problem. In other words a tall cool glass of STFU……

2. Could take the approach of waiting for her to initiating contact again and let her drive the discussion. This will likely appear to W as mean and distant. And likely does nothing to help my goal of reconciling…..


Part of me thinks that maybe there is an opportunity to say something to her like “….. We have both done some growing and seems like it would be good to have a short discussion a little later tonight about the direction we are headed and how we can move forward.”

See the above begins to verge on the boundary of pressuring/pursuing........... And that's the danger of going down this path......

[Wonka]

SFi,

If you cannot take more time off work, then tell W this and stick with it. Then you guys can meet after work as originally planned.

[SemperFi00]

SFi,
If you cannot take more time off work, then tell W this and stick with it. Then you guys can meet after work as originally planned.

Thanks Wonka. Originally the plan was to meet tonight but tomorrow night may also work......

Thanks Wonka. I know the right thing to do is to meet with her and be an adult about the conversation and doing the right thing for the kids. Any thoughts about the comments below? too much?

I think implied in the statement is an inherent desire to build a R moving forward for us.

“….. We have both done some growing and seems like it would be good to have a short discussion a little later tonight about the direction we are headed and how we can move forward......”

[Wonka]

I wouldn't say anything about growing and discussion on where things stand. Scrape those comments. Just go with an open mind and validate as appropriate.

[labug]

The guilty until proven innocent comment-you had a whole story built in your head about what was going on and as it happens, she thought you had the paperwork all along.

You didn't want to ask so now, here you are.

Not furthering/aiding the process doesn't mean standing by idly. Once the D process is set in motion it's time to talk brass tacks.

[SemperFi00]

The guilty until proven innocent comment-you had a whole story built in your head about what was going on and as it happens, she thought you had the paperwork all along.

Not sure it really matters but I don't think that she thought about the ppwk at all until earlier today when her L called her- she wasn't even aware of fact that we had the court appt at all until her L called her. At that point, she went looking for the ppwk and then assumed / accused me of digging through her drawers to find it.

For whatever reason, that accusation made me feel hurt and also sad that she would think I would do that.

Not sure that the above matters, I am taking your point to be to focus on not mind reading or avoiding.....

Not furthering/aiding the process doesn't mean standing by idly. Once the D process is set in motion it's time to talk brass tacks.

Thanks for this clarification. I think I was under the impression that the DB approach would be to not assist in moving things along so that the WAS could be responsible for the outcome of their own actions...

[SemperFi00]

Conversation tonight re: tomorrow's court date was relatively short. W was very emotional and I think I could have validater better - I just was trying not to be too emotional myself but now I wonder if may have been better to have cried with her and shown her that side of myself......

recap of conversation:

W: First of all I want you to understand that I am not bi-polar, maybe a coward but not crazy....I want you to know I did not at all want things to happen this way and you deserve so much better. Anyway that is all for now but we still have a lot to talk about.

Me: Thanks for that. Not sure where the bi-polar comment is coming from.

W interupted me: there was a tab open on the computer a couple of days ago and that I assumed was from you.

Me: Nope-that wasn't from me. W, we have both grown to be different people (nodded her head in agreement) and I think that the image you have of me may be different than who I am at this point. And the same for you.

W: I'll have to think about what that means....

In hindsight, I was thinking that it would have been good to have validated more that she wasn't a coward and that I appreciated that she didn't intend for it to play out this way.

Would it be too late to go back tomorrow and validate?

Thoughts/comments?

[SemperFi00]

getting close to 100 - will start a new thread shortly......

morning routine was fairly normal with discussion about W's MRI, getting kids ready for school, etc....

new kind of hurt that I am experiencing now which drives me crazy - when does it end?? Why does WAS (outwardly at least) get to be happy and carefree seemingly unaware of the destruction they are causing???

W was right in her comment last night, I do deserve better - we all do!

guess the pain begins to fade once and for all once the D is final.

Not feeling very detached or that PMA is in a good spot so far this morning......

How does the LBH maintain hope for a positive R moving forward from this point? Are there strategies for that???

Probably just rambling at this point and need to take a breath!

[labug]

First, I am sorry. This is painful but it will pass. Not today or tomorrow but it will. Pain and grief are important, they mark the passing of something important.

It would have been a 180 for you to show some emotion but don't revisit that, you'll have other opportunities.

Does your W look happy and carefree? This isn't easy for her and it indicates how unhappy she was to have to go through this. Yes, I know, she could have tried harder but I'll bet if I asked her she'd say, I tried everything.

Would you have been happy to stay in your M a it was until death do you part?

Have you read any of the women's threads around here? Many could have been WASs (me included) but stuck it out hoping things would change.

((( )))

[SemperFi00]

Link to new thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2524492#Post2524492