I've dropped the rope....

[Sotto]

Hi, this is my first post, but I've been lurking! Been with OH 11 years, married for 5 - very happily - or so I thought... He works away part of the week. SS13 from his previous marriage - Lives with us at weekends.

Back in Feb, OH left his work emails open and I went to use his PC. I noticed a number of emails to a female colleague with no subject line. Read them and realised this had become more than a friendship. OH admitted a couple of dates, and broke off the EA straightaway. Was shaken, but thought we were ok - OH quite low - saying he needed to make a big change in his life. Told me he had become quite depressed, felt he had tried to tell me, and I hadn't managed to understand how bad. That I kept suggesting superficial things to improve situation. He has a point there - and he also has realised he didn't bluntly tell me he had reached crisis point. So, he "got frustrated and sought comfort elsewhere."

OW left the company in May and moved abroad to move in with her partner. In July, OH rang me to say he needed to fly out and see her. Was devastated. He went over there, and emailed me to say they'd been having a PA since April. I moved out that day, and am living with my parents for now. The A has continued, and she's now split with her OH. He isn't aware of the A. She had an A with him too, which broke up his marriage. Then she cheated on him with my OH.

H keen to be honest and answered all Q's I asked about the A - willingly and openly I felt. He said the dishonesty was one of the worst things ever happened to him and he couldn't bear it. He's been out to see her about once a month since July. At first, he & I kept in touch by phone once a week or so. Talked a lot about our R and why the A happened etc. He just keeps saying he loves me and respects me but isn't sure what he wants. Wants to be very careful. Knows how much he has hurt me. But he has feelings for her. Their R seems pretty up & down. He finds her distant sometimes and doesn't always feel treasured by her. Says she doesn't treat him well sometimes. Told me he was happier in our R.

He and I have also met up once. Had a good visit. Friendly, talked a lot. Had a little hug. This was in the early stages and I wasn't sure he would visit her again, but he has. He told me how strong his feelings were for me after that visit. He felt it would be the easiest thing to fall back into a romance with me. Hold my hand, feel swept away. He said we shouldn't meet again as his self control is low. I told him there is no chance he and I will have a 'romance' whilst he is involved with someone else. That he has a decision to make and so do I.

Last time we spoke, he had started reading self help books and was thinking of seeing a therapist. I have kept in touch, asked Qs, listened, reported my feelings and not pushed. But I began to feel that by remaining in the picture, I was almost supporting the A. Being a point on the triangle.

Couple of weeks ago I decided it was time to withdraw. Told OH I can't stay with M&D forever and am looking for a rental flat. Told him he can link with our pet service direct (not thru me) and have stopped calling/texting (other than occasional functional texts.) It isn't easy though, and I would welcome any thoughts or comments. You all seem so wise. I am working on my own life. Have found some work here, started a fitness class, joined a book club and am volunteering in a local shop, joined an art class...seeing friends etc.

I just can't understand why he says he still feels about me that way, but doesn't end the A when our M is hanging by a thread. But, yes I know - GAL and stop trying to second guess him! Hello to you all anyway x

Sent from my iPad

[Jefe]

Welcome Toots. Interesting situation to say the least. I'm not sure how to even classify it. I think you are sort of the WAW but I believe this to be way above my pay grade. Hang in there. Let me ponder your situation a little more before I dig in further.

[MrBond]

Have you read DB or DR? What is an OH and M&D?

[Jefe]

Mr Bond,

M&D is Mom & Dad, I haven't figured out OH.

Toots,
"He said we shouldn't meet again as his self control is low."

Of the whole story you posted, the above sentence is the one that sticks out for me. I'm no expert here but it sounds like you need to move towards the LRT, but let some others weigh in first.

[Sotto]

Hi Jefe & Mr Bond - thanks for your replies. I have just read DB, which is how I learned about the forum. I plan to order DR this weekend.

Sorry for any confusion, and well done for getting the M&D. OH is other half - think I need to use H in future. I can recall reading about LRT, but not what is involved. I'll have another look, but wont do anything else just yet...

[Sotto]

Thanks for your replies - I think I have been putting OH (other half) and should be putting H. The low self control comment was made when we talked about having another meet up. We are a couple hours apart at the moment. From what he said, H seems to feel he would have low self control if (for example) I made a romantic approach. However, he also doesn't seem ready to let go of either the A or our R. I have told him I'm not going to become involved romantically with him whilst he remains involved with the OW. But he still felt it wouldn't be a good plan to meet - at this point in time anyway...

[Sotto]

Yes, I suppose I am the WAW. Hadn't really thought of it that way. But at BD, H had decided he was going to leave me. So I guess we would have separated either way. The OW accepted the job abroad in May. She had asked H to leave me at that point and he said no. They split up then, and H was relieved that things would get back to 'normal.' But once she had gone, H missed her and said his feelings were stronger than he had thought. Hence his decision to go out there in July.

Would someone mind telling me how the moderation process works, and what is the best way to get early replies please?

[MrBond]

Keep posting. That's the best way.

So what issues did the two of you have in your M? What were things that you might have done to contribute to the M problems? What happened to this first M?

The more open and detailed you are the better.

[Sotto]

Hi Mr Bond, thanks for your questions. When we've talked about this, we looked at what we think are his, my and our issues.

His?
Suppressing own needs & wishes to please others. "I'm a father, husband, employee - but who am I?"
Letting little problems build up into larger ones by not raising/tackling them
Not looking after self & making himself happy
Long term feelings of "profound loneliness" - possible depression. His own family are in US and he misses them.
Feeling that he would have liked us to have a family together. When we started living together, I came off the pill. But I never got pregnant, and am menopausal now. He says this isn't central, but something he would have liked...I know OW keen to have kids.

Mine?
Trying to be a bit too perfect (duty bound?) wife, stepmum, employee - rather than just being me
Not truly saying how I feel about things (eg: not always easy to step parent etc.)
Losing touch with my sense of fun - H described me as "buttoned up/corporate." Also, a bit too involved in 'organising' stuff - forgetting to just go with the flow....
Burying my head in sand and not understanding degree of H's unhappiness
Not dressing up/making the most of my assets (H feels I'm very attractive - would like to see me dress more provocatively - feels I am a bit conservative.)

Ours?
We have always been pretty 'low conflict' - both quite accommodating, polite. We have both struggled to raise and resolve issues & would suppress things.
Our love life had become 'routine' - H described it as 'functional' - lost spontaneity
Relationship has suffered as a result of H working away 3 days/week with long commute & high earning/pressure job - not much time/energy to do things
Realised we need to communicate better about deeper things.

I asked H whether he had 'fallen out of love with me' and he said no - he very much still sees me as a 'lover' and not a 'friend' or 'sister.' But he says he really needs to work on himself now, and that he's not 'moving' at the moment. Says he needs to work on his own issues before being in a 'big' relationship again. That said, he hasn't ended the A.

His first marriage lasted for 10 years. Both met in early 20s, whirlwind romance and married within 6 months. Difficult relationship - H was quite submissive - marriage was quite combative. He felt ex wife was v. critical & blamed him for problems that were hers (ie:depression) - or at least 'theirs' - ie: it takes two to make a marriage work etc. She and I have always got along well - but I know he was keener to meet a calmer, gentler partner after his first marriage. She is very assertive/forthright..

He was faithful during his first marriage. I have struggled with this because it wasn't a happy marriage, but he remained faithful. Yet he said our marriage has been a happy one - but he hasn't been faithful. He has always said how important fidelity is to him. He once said to me if I was ever unfaithful, our marriage would be over right away. I asked him what happened to these strong principles - and he said something along the lines of - I guess I let them slide...

I have never been unfaithful.

He and I met a year after their separation and took things pretty slowly. He had already started dating other people a few months before that & we met on an online dating site. His ex wife was unfaithful right towards the end of their marriage when things had got pretty bad. He and she are on reasonable terms now though. She would come to ours for dinner sometimes & vice versa. We also had her Mum over for dinner with us once - so all quite amicable. She's pretty upset with him about what has happened now..

[Sotto]

Realised today that this weekend it will be 4 weeks since H and I have spoken. Having 'dropped the rope' I just stopped initiating contact and he hasn't made any approaches since then.

We've exchanged a few texts about house and finances - but that's all.

What I want to ask is - how long is NC helpful? Should I worry if a month has passed & we haven't spoken? I did a 180 not initiating contact - but at what point do I review it?

[Sotto]

Texted H today to say I needed to drop by the house next week to pick up some things for the flat. In any contact now - and contact is minimal - one text a week or so - I'm trying to include an element of me moving forwards. H just replied to say he was glad I had found somewhere and wished me luck in my new place - asked me to send him a photo....

When you are trying to do a 180, and show yourself breezily moving forwards, it's a big effort. But your WS can give the impression they aren't bothered with very little effort at all! How did our marriage become so disposable for him!

[twinmom]

I believe it's in "the solo partner" but it says that after completely stopping your pursuit if your spouse has not started to pursue you within 2 months the relationship is dead.

[Maybell]

The Solo Partner may say that, but I think the experience of a lot of the vets on this board is very different.

It's cr@ppy, Toots, but it's also still new. Good luck.

[Sotto]

Thanks Maybell - that's good to know. Well, DR has arrived in the post for me today. Time to do some reading. No news from H, but have been GAL today.

Busy 'upcycling' furniture for my new rental flat, plus trip to IKEA, and a stint at the charity bookstore. It is good to have a day where my mind has been on other things...

[MrBond]

"Trying to be a bit too perfect (duty bound?) wife, stepmum, employee - rather than just being me
Not truly saying how I feel about things (eg: not always easy to step parent etc.)
Losing touch with my sense of fun - H described me as "buttoned up/corporate." Also, a bit too involved in 'organising' stuff - forgetting to just go with the flow....
Burying my head in sand and not understanding degree of H's unhappiness
Not dressing up/making the most of my assets (H feels I'm very attractive - would like to see me dress more provocatively - feels I am a bit conservative.)"

Much of what you wrote was based off of your H's perspective. Do you agree with any of them?

[Sotto]

I agree with some of them - trying to be 'perfect' - which links with the sense of fun. I do have issues with being accepted by people, and try a bit too hard, rather than thinking people can just take me as I am. And not truly saying how I feel about things - I find it easy to say positive stuff, but less easy to raise concerns - which I think links to a fear of rejection.

So, if there were two things I would really like to change, they would be these above.

I also accept our love life had lost some spark - but I struggle more with the "buttoned up & corporate" - that's not how I would see myself.

I also accept that I didn't understand how unhappy H was. Partly perhaps because I was happy & didn't want things to change. But H has also acknowledged that he didn't articulate things well - described himself as putting out "weak signals."

I also wasn't happy with the "dressing provocatively." I said to H I didn't mind this now & then, but in general I like what I wear and am happy with the way I look. We had to disagree on this one.

[MrBond]

"I agree with some of them - trying to be 'perfect' - which links with the sense of fun. I do have issues with being accepted by people, and try a bit too hard, rather than thinking people can just take me as I am. And not truly saying how I feel about things - I find it easy to say positive stuff, but less easy to raise concerns - which I think links to a fear of rejection."

So what are you doing about this?

"I also accept our love life had lost some spark -"

Spark doesn't get "lost". It gets neglected by choice because you choose to let other things be important than your love life. Do you initiate sex or date nights, etc? Did you do anything to encourage romance?

"but I struggle more with the "buttoned up & corporate" - that's not how I would see myself."

It doesn't matter how you see yourself. It's how your H and maybe others see you. Just because you don't agree because you can't see it, doesn't mean it's wrong.

"I also accept that I didn't understand how unhappy H was. Partly perhaps because I was happy & didn't want things to change."

That's a problem right there. Did he ask for certain things to be changed but was shot down or "politely" debated out of? That's just plain putting your needs ahead of someone elses.

"But H has also acknowledged that he didn't articulate things well - described himself as putting out "weak signals."

Have you ever thought of actually improving your listening skills rather than relying on him to send out stronger signals? Maybe he did but you didn't see them or just dismissed them blindly.

"I also wasn't happy with the "dressing provocatively." I said to H I didn't mind this now & then, but in general I like what I wear and am happy with the way I look."

And so did you EVER dress provocatively for him WITHOUT him having to ask you to?

[Sotto]

Thanks Mr Bond - food for thought.

I am seeing a counsellor, and we have been looking at the first area. I have been practicing giving feedback/raising concerns. I know I need to do more work on the being perfect/sense of fun. What am I going to do, you'll ask? I'll think about that some more - but I guess it is just about being more relaxed around people. Not worrying that I will be judged. Showing my imperfectness and taking more risks. Looking for the humour in situations.

In respect of love life - fair point. H and I have talked about this and he knows I am willing to work on this. I guess there hasn't been a practical opportunity since we have S and the A continues. But I know it is really important going forwards if we do get back together.

Buttoned up? Well, I have changed jobs now - to a much less 'corporate' one. Also started volunteering and very much a jeans and T shirt role - so I guess that one is changing...

With the understanding and listening. I have done a lot more of this lately with H - until I started LRT anyway. And he has said how heard and appreciated he has felt. What can I do going forwards? I guess it is really around, stop what you are doing, really listen, probe, be completely available, ask questions etc. I know I jump in with solutions too fast. My mentality is often just - how can we sort this out? - and this has been to the detriment of truly understanding at times.

In terms of the provocativeness, again H & I have talked about this. He knows I'm not naturally a provocative dresser - but I have said from time to time I'm happy to dress up more. There have been things he has bought for me that I haven't worn. He hasn't mentioned them, but I guess that may have hurt too. That said, I have dressed provocatively recently without being asked - since he said at new year he felt some of our spark had been lost.

But, it may have been too little too late as "Pandora's box" had been opened with the OW.

[MrBond]

"but I guess it is just about being more relaxed around people. Not worrying that I will be judged. Showing my imperfectness and taking more risks. Looking for the humour in situations."

Too vague. Be specific as to what actions you are going to be doing. For example, I'm going to take risks like go skydiving for the first time. Things like that. A 'To Do' list would help.

"In respect of love life - fair point. H and I have talked about this and he knows I am willing to work on this."

But was it brought up before the A and you dismissed it?

"I guess there hasn't been a practical opportunity since we have S and the A continues. But I know it is really important going forwards if we do get back together."

You can still LEARN how to be seductive and sexy even though he's not there. There's nothing stopping you from doing that.

"Buttoned up? Well, I have changed jobs now - to a much less 'corporate' one. Also started volunteering and very much a jeans and T shirt role - so I guess that one is changing..."

I don't think he meant that literally. I think he was referring to your attitude. It's a nice way of saying "stuck up" or too rigid. This goes back to your first point of thinking that you're not perfect. Which in turn is a control issue. You don't know how to just let loose.

"With the understanding and listening. I have done a lot more of this lately with H - until I started LRT anyway."

Why would this stop you from learning how to be a better listener and be more sympathetic. Again, you don't need your H to do this. Try it in your every day interactions. It will help with the other points you bring up.

"And he has said how heard and appreciated he has felt. What can I do going forwards? I guess it is really around, stop what you are doing, really listen, probe, be completely available, ask questions etc. I know I jump in with solutions too fast. My mentality is often just - how can we sort this out? - and this has been to the detriment of truly understanding at times."

Yes. People just want to be heard and understood rather than be offered solutions.

"In terms of the provocativeness, again H & I have talked about this. He knows I'm not naturally a provocative dresser - but I have said from time to time I'm happy to dress up more. There have been things he has bought for me that I haven't worn. He hasn't mentioned them, but I guess that may have hurt too."

Yes that probably did. That should have been a BIG hint for you especially if you never initiated. He shouldn't have to ask you. If you knew it was important to him and would make him happy, then you should have done it on your own.

"That said, I have dressed provocatively recently without being asked - since he said at new year he felt some of our spark had been lost."

By then it was too late.

"But, it may have been too little too late as "Pandora's box" had been opened with the OW."

But it shouldn't stop you from continuing the changes. YOU have been with him for 11 years. Use that to your advantage. You know what else he likes.

[Sotto]

Thanks for your insight Mr Bond - lots for me to think about there. I have been setting goals for myself, but realise they relate more to 'coping' with the situation and also to GAL partly. What I haven't really done is thought about what kind of person I really want to be going forwards & what I can do about that now.

I'm going to have a really good think about that over next couple of days, and will post some goals for myself. They seem like such big areas, and I feel a bit overwhelmed - but I read about baby steps on the forum & I'll think in terms of what those could be.

Thanks for your help!

[Sotto]

Okay - so I'm working on some goals that are more personal and relate to me becoming the person I want to be going forwards:

1. Let go more and go with the flow

Meditate daily
Go to weekly tai chi class

2. Relax more around people - connect with them
3. Rediscover my 'inner fox'
4. Laugh and be a 'free child' more

Do one (or ideally more than one) of these at least once a day:

*Gently tease someone
*Gently flirt with someone
*Initiate a chat
*Extend the hand of friendship
*Do something playful
*Do something that makes me laugh
*Offer to help someone
*Take a risk with someone

5. Listen - truly listen to others

*Read 'How to talk to anyone' and practice the techniques (by end Nov.)

I have other GAL/coping related goals - but these are more about 'me' and making some deeper changes within myself.

Just on that middle section - these may not sound much, but yesterday I did two things:

*I gently teased a colleague at work, and we had a laugh about it - feel a bit more relaxed around him now.
*I offered a lift to a guy at my Tai Chi class. His family have known ours for years, and I knew he would have to catch the bus home.

Felt good about both of these, and feel if I managed to keep up these kinds of changes, it would make a big difference in my life...

Any thoughts folks?

[Sotto]

Oh no - a traumatic thing just happened!

Decided I would have a look at Meetups as part of GAL plan. Went onto website & forgot, but H & I set up his account together on my ipad & it was logged on as him.

He & I have beec NC for a month now, so no idea what happening with him. There was a message from an old friend he bumped into at a meet up asking if he wanted her number. He replied he had just finished a relationship & it was too soon for him to start another, he hoped she'd understand.

Now - he's never told me our M is over - just that he doesn't know what he wants & isn't 'moving' (in terms of making a decision right now.) Does this mean he thinks our M is over - or is the A over - or both? - or neither? I just don't know....heartbreaking!

Managed to deal with it in hopefully a DB-like way:

Sent him a text saying - hadn't realised I still have access to your meetups account. Would you mind logging off & changing your password.

He relied back - sorry that happened - I've changed it now.

Responded saying thanks for that - going to resister & see what"s on local to here

Just feeling a bit low & upset about it now & shame, as been doing pretty well GAL, NC and detaching...it's so hard sometimes...

[Sotto]

Can I please get some advice DB'ers?

So I 'dropped the rope' and started LRT 5 weeks ago. Haven't spoken to H since then. We text now & then - about house stuff. I'm brief, breezy, seem busy, don't respond too fast, mention GAL stuff in passing. Texts have all been pleasant, and H includes 'extra' comments (pleasant ones) that aren't needed.

But, we have no kids together and I'm 2 hours away. We are not going to see each other unless we plan it. I have been busy GAL and am looking for a rental flat. Been to our house this week to collect some stuff.

At what point do you feel I should review things (if at all) and suggest contact?

When we spoke on the phone in the weeks after BD it made no difference. But, we met up once and that really seemed to impact on H. He felt romantic towards me and said it would have been easy to be swept away by me. Acknowledged he had forgotten how lovely his wife was. He said he doesn't want to meet up for now because he needs to sort himself out, and he has low 'self control' at the moment.

As far as I know the A continues...Please help! I feel I have been doing the right 'LRT' things - but just feeling a bit wobbly about it now...worried I may be missing a chance to see him and have him feel that way about me again.

I think I know what the answer will be - but I just need to hear it!

[MrBond]

Do you have a FB account that he has access to?

[Sotto]

No, I don't use FB...

[MrBond]

Is there anything that ties you two together? Financials, family, friends, etc.?

[Sotto]

We jointly own our house, which I moved out of. We have pets there, so we have linked up about them, and other stuff about the house. In terms of finance, we always both had separate current accounts. We have a joint account which we both fed money into for house/family expenses. H and I agreed I would stop contributing to the joint account for now as I have new expenses here. H has also agreed to help fund a 6 month rental here, to save me using up savings. But after that he says I need to be self sufficient, so I'm building up my freelance work/earnings here at the moment.

Then, there's my stepson. I've been very involved in his life for 10+ years & have been keeping in touch with him separate to H. He, his Mum & I are meeting up next week. At one point, H suggested we meet up as a family, but I said no. It was before I started LRT, and it didn't feel right to me for us to be separated, but linking up for 'family stuff' whilst H was having an A.

We also have a couple of good mutual friends who are in touch with us both. One in particular has talked a lot with each of us about things and has been trying to help. Neither are supportive of the A, and think H is having a MLC.

So, I guess our lives are still very much 'joint' but we have made arrangements that are in place for now...

I could certainly ask to meet & discuss any of the above - but I have been leaving it as in LRT and didn't want to start 'pushing' on things like the house, finances etc.

Any thoughts??

[Sotto]

Just found out that one of our very good friends will be seeing H tomorrow. She hasn't managed to see him for a month or so, and will doubtless catch up with him on what is happening. She and I had already arranged to meet up on Monday separately, so I may hear a little more about what is happening.

I haven't asked anything of her. Don't want to put her in an awkward position - she has already been really helpful, and supports our marriage 100%.

[Sotto]

So, our good friend saw H today. She texted me to say there wasn't much she could tell me, but she didn't think anything was resolved with H (and OW presumably.)

Was disappointed - have been doing a 180 for over 5 weeks now, and wondered if there might be a bit of a shift. Doesn't sound like it - sounds like all is still foggy with him.

Oh well - important to remember - have no expectations Toots, then you won't be disappointed will you? At least I was disappointed and not devastated anyway.

Back to detaching and GAL for me. Have a busy few days coming up with work and seeing friends, so that should be good for me...

[Sotto]

So, I have been reading the Chump Lady website - Theoden has mentioned it a few times, and it is worth a look very entertaining, but take it with a pinch of salt - her views are at the extreme end. The thing is, I feel like filing for divorce right now!

She advocates 'dump the cheater' pretty much every time. She also has pretty strong (negative) views on the DB approach etc.

I'm not going to file for divorce right now - but it has helped me start to think, after all of this, do I actually want to be with H again? He was unhappy, I didn't understand how much.. He never sat me down and said, I'm so unhappy our marriage is at risk now. He just decided to start 'dating' other women whilst away at work.

Then he had an affair and lied to me for months. And now, he won't even end this affair and recommit to our M. And the OW is a bit of a 'train wreck' who had an affair before and then cheated on here AP with my H. Is this a man I actually want to be married to again?

Some of Starsky's and Theoden's posts really struck a chord too - about the state of mind a WS needs to be in for true reconciliation to happen. My H seems miles away from that.

So, I'm all over the place really - and thinking maybe this is all useful stuff to go through to get to the point of not being so attached to the outcome of H and me getting back together.

What do you think please?

[MrBond]

I've seen that website. The all or nothing approach preached on there is totally wrong. Moving on to the next person without figuring out what caused the breakup just moves your issues to another person.

I know you briefly summarized what you thought you did wrong in the M but have you done anything about them? What he's going through really is a lot about him trying to find superficial things to make him feel happy rather than looking inwards.

[MrBond]

For a better read, search for project happily ever after. Better than chump lady who always sounded like she never moved on from her first M and wallows in unresolved anger issues.

[Sotto]

Thanks so much Mr Bond. I'll look up Project Happily ever after. I have posted some draft goals about a page back. If you get chance to have a look, I would welcome comments. I have been putting them into practice.

I think the really big things for me (and for my M) are loosen up, communicate & be more 'foxy.'

[theoden]

Toots,

Hi! Hope all is well with you over the pond. ;-)

I really don't have the best advice for you. My DB efforts didn't work. All I can share is what didn't work for me and extrapolate. I'm like a red-flag on how NOT to save your marriage.

Why did YOU move out when your husband is having an affair? For your sanity? Why didn't he move out?

Aside from that, I think you are taking healthy steps and setting clear boundaries. I've just checked out Project Happily Ever After -- seems decent enough.

I think that the reason I love Chump Lady a lot is that she's like a cold splash of water in the face. She admits she's not very hopeful about genuine reconciliations. Yet she does think it's possible, but she thinks that usually comes from hard-line actions like ultimatums, seeing a lawyer, filing for divorce, etc -- which in some senses forces the cheater/wayward spouse to confront the consequences of their actions. I think Divorce Busting advocates those actions, too, but only after other things have been tried. The problem, however, is that on these boards, the tendency has been to linger in limbo for so long that person being cheated on eventually gets emotionally, physically and financially drained by the affair. In addition, the cheater begins to lose respect for their spouse when they see that their infidelity gets rewarded with a "new and improved" happy spouse (fresh from 180's and GAL-ing) who is all too eager to reconcile. I think the "new and improved" routine only really works when you are really doing for yourself (to maintain sanity) AND with some sort of detachment (meaning they are beginning to wonder what they might be losing out on).

I think you are doing this well, Toots. Only you can decide how much time you want to give your husband to decide what he wants.

My personal experience plus what I've seen on the DB boards lends me to think that in many cases a more hard-line approach would have created a greater sense of respect and attraction of the cheater for the left-behind-spouse. I think the book the Divorce Remedy has provisions for hard-line approaches, but they tend to get side-stepped on these boards if it were not for Starsky. ;-)

Best of luck to you.

Theoden

[theoden]

Toots,

You said:

Some of Starsky's and Theoden's posts really struck a chord too - about the state of mind a WS needs to be in for true reconciliation to happen. My H seems miles away from that.

I'm not sure what gets a person to be in the right state of mind to really reconcile. Some say it's time. I thought so and I was wrong. Others think there's nothing like throwing them out of the house, and giving them an ultimatum and filing for divorce that gets them in the right state of mind quickly to reconcile.

The hope of DB-ing is that our GAL's make you the more attractive option. Perhaps.

I think in your situation, your husband didn't have a ton of complaints about you. It's mostly about his own unhappiness. I think he'll see you are the better option whatever means you choose.

--Theoden

[Sotto]

Hi Theoden, thanks so much for your reply and your interest in my sitch. I'm sorry that things didn't work out for you and wish you happiness going forwards.

I initially left our family home to stay with my parents for a bit after BD. I was born in the house where they still live, and I felt safe there. Safe was a word that came up a lot for me in the very early stages. I didn't feel safe any longer in our family home. I don't mean physically safe, but emotionally. I couldn't bear to stay there. I had moved to that area to join H before we married. And although I have made friends there, I just wanted to be back here with my folks for a bit.

It has also meant that SS and H can use the house at weekends. H works away during the week. Looking back, I wouldn't want to have stayed in the house and disrupted SS at weekends. But in all honesty that wasn't uppermost in my mind at the time I made the decision. It was just survival mode really.

Thanks for your kind comments too. Whether H sees me as the better option in the longer term, who knows. The OW certainly seems to have plenty of appeal ATM!

Toots :-)

[MrBond]

"Some say it's time. I thought so and I was wrong."

For me, giving time worked. So it's different for everyone since everyone is different. Just do what works.

[Sotto]

Have been feeling a bit better the past couple of days. A rental flat has come up that I am interested in, I saw SS and his Mum yesterday and had a good IC session Tuesday.

I hadn't seen SS since July. He & his Mum live a couple of hours away, but he & I have kept in touch by text. It was great that we met, and we had a good time. I was anxious beforehand and worried that I would be emotional - and didn't want him to have to 'deal with' my grief.

But in the event I was fine and we had some good laughs. His Mum & I have always got along fine. She has always said that SS doesn't have a bicycle for support (she and H) - but a tricycle (she, H and me.) And SS has commented before that it's nice everyone is friends.

It was a bit cathartic for me because I felt a lot of guilt about abandoning the 'family' home after BD, and have cried and worried a lot about it. Worried I let SS down. But realistically I didn't feel I could stay at the time.

But yesterday, I could see that we can carry on meeting up as we did and stay in touch, regardless of what H does. We've already said we'll do it again Xmas break.

Do I need to start another thread soon? How do you know when it is time to do that??

[MrBond]

"Do I need to start another thread soon? How do you know when it is time to do that??"

When you're up to about 10 pages. So before Christmas, what are your actions to improve yourself?

[Sotto]

So, my actions to improve myself before Xmas are:

Complete my term of Tai Chi classes (already started) - loosen up/relax
Meditate daily and finish reading book by Jon Kabat Zin - loosen up/relax

Keep up current GAL activities - volunteering, book club, writing group, seeing friends, freelance work - connect with people
Take chances to relax, connect & tease or flirt with others - from my 'one a day' list - connect with people

Complete course of IC to look at the dynamics of our marriage & myself within it - working on my communication

Set up local infidelity support group - my IC and I are looking a this one together - and ideally I would like to do this with her support.

Get settled into a rental flat (currently at my parents, but want more independence again.)

[Sotto]

Not much new with me. Been feeling up and down this week. H & I not spoken for over 6 weeks now. We have texted about pets/house/money - all perfectly pleasant - but that's all. I'm worried that there will be so much emotional distance between us, that it will be hard for us ever to come back from it....

But, I know that pursuit doesn't work either. So, I'll just keep on going. I have been busy GAL anyway. Found a flat I like this week, and have said I would like to take it - but there are others interested, so I'm not yet sure if I'll get it. Should know tomorrow.

I also signed up to Meetups this week. There are a couple of hopeful sounding ones locally, and I have RSVP'd for one later this month.

Oh well, onwards and upwards....:-)

[unbidden]

Maybe it's time to rethink whether you should contact H more periodically with pleasantries.

[Sotto]

Thanks unbidden. Do you mean by text or to call him? As I'm now 2 hours away and we don't have kids together, there isn't any 'natural' contact. But we do have shared housing, animals and finances, so potentially plenty to talk about.

In the weeks after BD, we talked every week or so. A lot about our M, his A, what and why etc. This went on for a couple of months. Last time we spoke (mid Sept) he said he needed to work on himself before getting into a 'big' R again (but he hasn't since finished the A.) He was reading self help books and thinking of IC.

I began to feel that my 'loving' contact in those first 2 months might be encouraging a stable triangle - almost supporting the A... And I didn't really feel the talking made much difference. Meeting up did - we did that once - and H was really affected by that.

I think he may feel he can't get in touch unless he has decided what he wants to do..

So, I guess I'm just not sure what to do at this stage...Any thoughts folks?

[Bunches]

Hey Toots, I'm sure its tough to have gone so long and feel like its not just slipping further out of hand. But in my opnion, if you reach out your are only confirming to him that you are thinking about him and securing your plan B status. My assumption here is that you want to reach out because you miss him and are hoping for a reaction. Just seems like the wrong reason. It doesn't seem very "as if" either. Especially with him still being in the A...its not time. You could be fulfilling an emotional need when reaching out during his A that makes him feel better about what he is doing. Just stick with you and your life and let it be.

Just my thoughts...

[Sotto]

Had a boost today. Had viewed a lovely rental flat at the weekend, just down the road from my parents. But 3 other people were looking at it and I missed out on the last one I saw in the same block.

Anyway, I got it! Went to the agents today and reserved the flat, made my application etc. I have been at mum & dad's for almost 4 months now, so it will be nice to be independent again. And it's a sign of moving further forwards - a next phase beyond the awful BD period..

H had asked me to let him know when I found somewhere, so I dropped him a quick text to update him. Not heard back from him - and suspect he is travelling back from seeing OW (who lives abroad) this weekend. Anyway, it's a sign of progress that it didn't burst my bubble too much.

I'm so glad to get a little boost. I was feeling like my life was full of rejection - my H rejected me and no-one would rent me a flat....but at least one of those is on the way to being sorted now.. :-)

[wmwb123]

Congrats!

[Sotto]

Pretty good day yesterday. Did some work in the morning, then IC in the afternoon and a class in the evening - GAL day.

At IC, we did some work on family trees - sketching out mine and H's tree. On his, we included his exW - which was no problem at all - she and I get along fine.

Counsellor then asked - where should we put AP? "Nowhere!" I said. We had some discussion about her clearly being a part of his life at least for now. But I still didn't want to put her on the tree.

Brought it home to me that she may be the one in future who plays with 'my' nieces, welcomes the in-laws etc - that was hard to think about.

Then I remembered that relationships formed in lies and deceit are unlikely to succeed - so she may end up not getting to know H's family anyway.

I struggle with the unfairness of it all really. If we are 'good' then 'good' things will happen to us - won't they? But I feel she has been 'bad' - but a 'good' thing is happening to her isn't it?

Then I thought long term, and some of the things that she will & I won't have to live with:

*I won't have to live with the fact I have been unfaithful
*I won't have to live with having told lies to someone I love
*Or having contributed to the break up of someone else's family
*Or having pursued my own happiness at the expense of others

So, I came round to the view that - whilst I may not be very happy now - and "bad" things are happening now, at least I have maintained my integrity, self-respect and been honest. And that may mean that "good" things may happen going forwards.

So, I guess the IC helped process all of this, which was useful! :-)

[Jefe]

Good Job. I wouldn't have been able to add anyone else to the tree either. OM1/Bio Dad I can do, but nothing now. Interesting exercise, the Tree idea.

[Bunches]

That's a tough pill to swallow. I can't imagine having to put up with OM either. I think the tree is a challenging but good idea. It really represents reality, liked or not.

[Sotto]

I've concluded that the most she's gonna get is for OW to be on a post-it note - temporary and removable! ;-)

[Bunches]

Haha, I like that. Or maybe a washable marker. : )

[Sotto]

Not much to report from me. It was my birthday this week, so a bit of a mixed time - but did a couple of nice birthday things with friends and family. No contact with H recently - no birthday wishes. We've now not spoken since late Sept.

I think I've been doing pretty well with GAL things and working on myself. I think I've shown a lot of self-restraint and set some clear boundaries with H. Things going ahead with rental flat - I should move in sometime this month.

But, my problem is 'internal' really. It is all still on my mind a lot - 4 months after BD now. I'd like to feel more 'detached' emotionally - but I still feel 'attached' to the outcome of us being reconciled if possible. And things still go around in my head a lot.

What has helped you guys 'detach' more and 'move on' internally?

[Bunches]

Hey Toots, I think you are doing great for 4 months. I'm just passing 13 months coming up and only now feel like I'm 'really' making detaching progress. Its slow work and the only thing that works is getting out there and feeling good about your life. Honestly, nothing has helped me as much as working out. Its such a stress release and makes me feel great about me.

Hang in there!

[Sotto]

Thanks Bunches. I have made progress, and it is still early days really. I was probably being a bit optimistic hoping to be more detached than I am...

Good to know that you feel much more 'detached' after a year. Hopefully I have that to look forward to! :-)

[Sotto]

So, I got a 'linked in' update today, saying that H has got a new job. Weird, and very much a sign of how things have become, that I only get to learn this online.

Showed some self-restraint, & managed not to visit his profile & have a look at where he is going. A bit worried he may be moving abroad to join OW. But that's just anxious thinking. We have a flat in London & his son is here, so I don't think he'd move.

I'm not sorry he is leaving. He really went downhill 'happiness-wise' there, and it was also where he met OW, so it has some bad associations for me.

Anyway, I know - best not to worry about it. I just felt a bit shaken to get the notification..brings it home to me how far apart we have become :-(

[Bunches]

Good with the restraint...linked in is a bad one to look at anyways. Your ex would see who has been reviewing profile. No good if you are seen snooping.

[Sotto]

I know...that's partly what stopped me! Also, I thought if I do know more, I'll just have something further to obsess about....

I closed my Linkedin account...I don't want to receive any more notifications like that - It didn't help with my peace of mind today.I was only linked in with H and a handful of others anyway - never really used Linkedin properly.

Grrr - off to meditate now - breathe toots, breathe.....

[Sotto]

Advice needed please! Just to recap:

H & I not spoken since mid Sept

Last time we spoke he said he didn't know what he wants. Still loves me. Understands if I can't wait for him to decide. He isn't moving (in terms of making a decision)) at present.

I told him I was starting to move forwards with my life. I wanted to get a rental flat. I wasn't waiting - but I wasn't 'done' yet.

He is visiting his AP this weekend. Things very rocky there - keeps nearly ending. He's given ultimatums to her - then they come back from the brink etc.

The thing is - I spoke to a good friend today. She was in a state. He has told her things he hasn't told me. He has decided our marriage is over now. He knows he wants to have a family and what direction he wants his life to go in. It doesn't involve me. She has bluntly told him twice that he needs to tell me this.

She said she feels I need to contact him, in order that he can tell me he's made a decision. I have told her - if he has made a decision, and he wants to contact me. He can do that. I'm not rescuing him.

Help - any thoughts at this stage....please...

[Bunches]

I think you are completely right to not rescue him here. If you push the matter it can't help. Sounds like friend is mind reading and pushing that on to you. If his mind was made up and he truly didn't feel conflicted, you would have gotten that phone call already.

Time to hold to 'as if' and keep the focus off him. If you get the call, then you know and if not you shouldn't worry about it like it means anything.

[Sotto]

Thanks Bunches. I know that's the right thing to do...and I won't do anything - other than GAL etc. Just feel a bit desperate today though.....I learned that my marriage has ended - "on the grapevine". How can we overcome that?

[Bunches]

Toots I remember the days when it had only been 4 or so months after BD for me. All I can say is that it takes time and moving towards a future for you while brushing away the fantasy that isn't. I spent way too much time dreaming of the fix or the silver bullet that would solve it. All of my truth about what happened in W life had to come from the grapevine too.

You need to recognize your value and believe in it. You don't need all the answers today. But believe that you have a future where you are happy. Work towards that and just take it one day at a time. Its a long road, but you will make it.

[Sotto]

Thanks Bunches. I'm regrouping. Had a good cry and now getting out the books again - another bend in the road...A friend is going to ring for a chat in a little while too.

I've decided that I'm not going to rescue him at all here. I'm not going to take steps to 'enable' a conversation. And if we do talk, I'm not going to 'open' any discussions about our M. He will need to do all of that if he wants our M to end and wants to ask for a divorce. Time to man up and put his BBPs on. It is hard to understand that he seems to have decided this weeks ago - and just hasn't done anything about telling me...

Our friend said she thinks he's hoping that I will start things off in terms of divorce - well that's not going to happen yet. I'm not done!

[twinmom]

Wait............... he has one child, and at 45 has decided he wants to "start a family" ie have more children?

Is he crazy?

Toots, you are on the right path.

Let me ask you a personal question, feel free to not answer if you don't feel comfortable. How do you feel about having children?

[Sotto]

When we moved in together, I was 39. We stopped using contraception and decided we would leave things in the lap of the gods. TBH, I've always been a bit ambivalent about having children, but I felt if it happened, and 'we' became pregnant, I'd be really pleased.

Anyway it never happened & I had an early menopause. TBH, we always had a great family life with SS14, and I was content that this was our family. It is weird that H doesn't seem to view us as a 'family' now and wants a new one. He & I did tentatively talk about adoption at points. I wasn't really in favour, and he wasn't pressing for it - so it wasn't something we pursued.

In talks since we S, he has said all of this is an issue for him. But he has also said it isn't central to things. Except now he seems to have decided that it is - albeit he hasn't told me this himself...

[Sotto]

I also should have said. Alongside saying all of the above - he has been saying..."gee, I just don't know about starting another family. I'm 45 now, I'd be 65 before kids were all grown up..."

[Sotto]

So, given the above developments, I should expect some contact from H soon - saying that he has decided the M is over and wants a divorce. I need to think about how I respond.

In UK law, there needs to be grounds for divorce if you haven't been separated for 2 years yet. One of these is adultery, and I could file now on that basis. However, I have always said (to myself) that I won't be the one to file until/unless I'm 'done,' As far as I understand H has no grounds to file. It would have to be me. Any thoughts?

Also, I think I should make a solicitor appt now. Our friend told me that H expects us to sell our main house and I receive half of that - and that's all. But we have other assets, which probably total another £500k plus. He believes all of these are 'his.' But I believe the law sees them as 'ours.' They have all been built up during our relationship. So, I need to understand how all of that works too....just in case.

Any comments/thoughts would be really welcome at this stage guys...

[Bunches]

I think you should definitely see counsel at this point to understand 'your' rights and how to protect yourself. You should also start keeping a record of what assets there are today in case your H starts to try moving them or something.

But as for the rest about figuring a response and expecting a call...you are mind reading and focusing on what is going on in H life. Don't do that. Let him be and do what he is going to do. If he does call and give you the talk its best to stick to the easy phrases. I'm going to have to think about that, or the like. You are planning a reaction based on his possible actions...not healthy for you I think.

[Sotto]

Hi Bunches - thanks for that second point. I hadn't thought of it as mind reading. I was just in a panic wondering what I would do if it happens. I'll remember the phrase - let him be and do what he is going to do....& try and get into a healthier DB frame of mind about it..thanks for your input.

[Sotto]

So, I'm still reading Full Catastrophe Living by Jon Kabat Zinn, and this struck a chord with me today...

He talks of being dissatisfied with the present. Wanting something more to happen. To possess something that would make you feel better, complete, whole. An impulse to get what you want and hold on to it.

He says - Such impulses are driven by a kind of greediness, or a 'more for me' impulse, in order to be happy. Maybe it is money, control or love. Whatever your craving at this point, to be driven by such impulses means that, on a deep level, you don't believe that you are whole as you are....

[Sotto]

Got the keys to my new rental flat today. Very pleased with it and spent a nice afternoon cleaning and organising my new kitchen.

Had the radio going and hardly thought about H at all for hours. Went to an IC appt yesterday. She mentioned a couple of things that I found useful.

1) When you are working on yourself, get back in touch with your 'passion.' What are you passionate about? Dancing? Singing? etc. Things that you once loved to do but stopped...maybe because you got into an R? Well, get out there and do them.

2) Have a think about your attributes. They might be positive ones. For me, we came up with nurturing, rational, articulate - amongst others. She then said to have a look at what you aren't doing when you display these attributes:

Nurturing (caring for others) - Not caring for yourself?
Rational - Not being nonsensical, spontaneous..
Articulate - I can't remember that one....but hopefully you get the picture.

She was just trying to say that - those things you don't do, may well be things to get back in touch with, and work on as part of working on you.

Back to my new flat tomorrow for some more cleaning and sorting...feels good :-)

[Sotto]

"There was a poster here a few months ago named Thornton who went through six(?) weeks of complete darkness with his wife.... Well, after a couple of months he finally got the green light from Wonka to send her a joke via text. Over about a month or two that one joke blossomed, very tentatively, into a reconciliation. Turns out all that cheerful stuff she was putting into the world was a huge mask. She was miserable but didn't know how to find her way back to him."

This struck a chord with me. H and I haven't seen each other for 3 months, and haven't spoken for 2 months. We text once a week or so about house/pets stuff. Texts are just pleasant and functional.

As far as I know at this point, he has decided our M is over and that he wants a family with someone else. He is still involved with OW - but things sound pretty unsettled there.

Is staying dark the right thing at this stage? What if he is miserable and can't find his way back? But it sounds as though his mind is made up against our M and there's nothing I can do for now.

Just having a big moment of doubt. Any thoughts anyone??

[Bunches]

Hey Toots, hope you had a good Thanksgiving. I can completely relate to this question. As they say, every situation it different and certain things work for some that doesn't work for others. I would think that while OW is still in the picture that it shouldn't bear considering. If you make that move it would be with expectations and if nothing else, its not healthy for you. I'd say if OW was out of the picture and you wanted to test the water would be one thing but not while you are confident OW is still around.

[Sotto]

Thanks Bunches

When I thought about it some more, I knew that really. Just having a wobble!

Glad things are coming together for you with your move..

Toots :-)

[Pink17]

Hi Toots,
Sorry to disappear for awhile. Had been busy since the whole Thanksgiving trip.

I see you are "moving on" with your life, congrats on your new flat, somehow, somewhere there is a great feeling of accomplishment on that.

The most difficult part of all is to let time to do the hard lift for us, the unknown is a killer... it's easy to mind read and interpret things in one way one day and see it in another way the next day.

In regard of protecting yourself and your future, I think it's best if you look for professional help to understand all your rights. It's a hard thing to do since it seems you are giving up on your M, but unfortunately it can be a disaster if you don't pay attention to it and H does something stupid.

It is also annoying that you need to have so much paperwork to trace your financial life for at least last year or so. I agree with you that he needs to be the one to start the divorce process if this is what he desires. But there is the parallel that you need to keep an eye, if he won't move towards taking financial advantages on you.

What does your IC says about contacting your H? Is there anything you need to talk about with him that is not related to R? Just that you would check his attitude towards you?

Do you know if he gets some info about your life now? Does he knows you are moving into your new flat? What about his son, do you have any contact with him at all?

Toots, it is very hard to move on with our lives and even harder when things are in the "limbo zone". I found it very hard to detach...it's like giving up. But, it is what is best for now, to be the person "YOU" love to be.

How will be your Christmas and New Year? Do you have any plans? Any chance you may see H around?

Toots, I believe you are doing the right thing even though it seems nothing is getting resolved. But we are here for a reason, we want to save our M, and trying that means to do what does not make to much sense and yet makes the most sense of all... take good care after yourself and become a person that only a fool would leave.

What are the changes you see in yourself? I mean, as a girl? I have been exploring this, feeling good about my appearance helps me to face the day...

Hope you are treating yourself well and building some strength. I keep saying to myself... patience, patience and more patience. It's the only way.

Hang in there and take one day at a time, you can do it, you are doing it, and with time you will feel really proud of yourself...

Hugs
Pink

[Sotto]

Thanks Pink - your post really helped me today. I drove up to our house (about 2 hours away) to collect some things...and also go to the dentist and see a friend.

I have done this a couple of times, and felt okay before. But, gosh, I felt wobbly today. All shaken and sick when I was in the house. I don't know why it felt so bad today.

I was waiting for the dentist after this when I read your post and it made me feel much better. Nice to know that you can help someone else, when you are feeling cr**py yourself.

Hope you're having a good day!

Toots :-)

[Pink17]

Toots,
What is going on with you?

Hope everything is OK... keep moving forward girl, you can do it!

Hugs!

[Sotto]

I'm ok - thanks for thinking of me. Better once back in my flat etc. there's still an element of here=safe and MH=unsafe I think.

Awaiting WIFi here, so a bit variable on checking the forum ATM.

Had a nice text from SS today. Someone said something funny at school & it reminded him of me...said he loved me...

Yes, we are still in touch, and going to meet up over the Xmas. Real with his Mum.

Will have a look at your post & reply too. Noticed your H has asked for a talk...

:-)

[Pink17]

Toots,
You sound a little bit sad... the Holidays can get you thinking.

Are you planning something for Xmas besides seeing SS? Are you spending time with your own family?

Maybe go out with some friends, see people and enjoy yourself?

I feel so close to you, it's amazing how we can like someone we don't even know face to face. You are a good person and sooner then later life will give you a chance to be happy again.

And how are things with H? Any contact from him? This Limbo business is very hard, and the whole detach is a huge challenge.

Hope you take good care after yourself, you deserve it.

Hugs!

[Sotto]

I'm doing okay actually. I have quite a few social plans over xmas. Seeing parents on Xmas day, and some friends the next day, then my sister on the 28th. Also seeing SS and another set of friends over Xmas too. So I guess I'll be pretty busy.

I'm not really looking forward to Xmas & will be glad to get through it & be into the new year. But I'm not feeling low or dreading it.

I would like to look at a couple more GAL things, and am going to try aqua aerobics tomorrow. Plus I may join a class or a choir in the new year.

H and I were in touch by text this week....problem with the boiler. His texts were pretty chatty & pleasant. I was pleasant and a bit less chatty in return!

Hope all goes well with the talk....remember....'you've got this!'

[okjpc]

Pink and Toots,
thank you for your posts. I haven't seen or heard from my W in two months and miss my stepkids too. Our anniversary is in a couple of weeks followed by xmas and any time i think about it i get really bummed out. It helped me this morning to come across your convo!

[Sotto]

Hi Okjpc....glad to be of service! Come join us anytime - it's good to hear from you.

I have already 'survived' our anniversary and my birthday. No contact from H on either. Had a virus on our anniversary and just pulled the duvet up over my head & let my Dad look after me. The thing with these dates is, they pass....it's horrible, but when they do, we are a step forward & can look back & think 'well I made it through that.'

I'll have a look at your sitch Ok & offer anything I can think of that may help. I'm sorry you haven't heard from your W. remember....time and patience....Do you have some good GAL activities underway??

It is hard being a step parent in this situation. You invest a lot into the relationships with your step kids, but then don't really have any 'rights' as such if you separate. I have been grateful to my H's ex W, who is keen for me to still be a part of SS's life.

Sending good wishes from across the pond :-)

[Pink17]

Toot my dear,

So glad to hear that you have some plans line up for XMas. I know it is a very difficult time for many of us here, but like wisely you said, once you do it, then you know you survived another challenge.

Yes, it is pretty hard w/SS situation. It's nice that his mom let him contact you and have some R with you. It's a blessing.

You know, sometimes I think about what your H is doing and I can only think that he will wake up one day and found out he is so lost. He is not resolving his issues, he is just piling them up and sooner or later they will all catch up with him.

It's nice you have family close by. I do not and feel I could use some love from my mom, my sisters and even my brother. I contact them frequently, but it's not the same like getting a worm hug. Enjoy it, you are luck!

Hope there will be more contact from your H and things will look a little brighter for you.

((((Toots))))

Pink

[okjpc]

It really does help to hear that what I'm experiencing is normal. And, of course, my heart goes out to everyone who posts here and that gets me out of my head too.

It's very cool that the H's XW wants you in the SS's life. Fights with my W about the SS and her XH driving wedges between us were what precipitated her exit. But not only do i miss the SS, i honestly think he's better off with me in his life. His father is total turd and my W is a very good mother, but doesn't understand a lot of his needs for a good father figure in his life. We were so close that he said i was his "real dad". I called him "son" and he told my W that he wanted to take my last name as his middle name.

It's weird how such random things can trigger our emotions, but i am glad that i'm really grieving and not bottling it up.

Thanks again for posting.

[Sotto]

Pink was right when she said I sound sad. It's been hard moving into my own place. It was easy living at Mum & Dad's. They have a routine & I just slotted in. I was so pleased to get somewhere to live for myself. But the first week or so has been hard. Just me here - and have struggled with loneliness.

Came out fighting this morning. Need to get GAL ing some more! Decided to go to Aqua Aerobics tonight. Didn't feel like going - but made myself....and enjoyed it. Nice group of ladies and good to be in the water exercising....so that's a new one in the bag for me!

I think I just need to keep pushing on the GAL stuff for a bit - no slacking off for me - and then I'll enjoy my new independent life a bit more hopefully.

Proud of myself tonight ;-)

[Pink17]

It's really good you forced yourself to go to Aqua Aerobics and then had some fun.

Give yourself some time to adapt to the new independent life - also, it may be good if H knows you are moving on and feeling good about it. It may make him curious.

It's a hard time, keeping busy is the best we can do to feel less sad.

Hugs!

[Pink17]

Toots,

I am not very proud to say that I did many things wrong on saturday night.

I was expecting to talk about our D, but we did not. Instead he was nice, we did talk about things we did or we didn't do during our M, we cried, we laugh.

But I had one too many glasses of wine, I felt weak, and he end up helping me. I was not too bad, but H end up in my bed, and I know it was not good for both of us.

I don't really regret it, but I know was not good for my DB.

On sunday he showed up at the house to check if I was OK, he told me that he feels I am lonely, he is worry about me and he feels he can't be there anymore to take care after me, he apologize for taking advantage of the situation, that he respect me a lot and want to say that he was really feeling bad about his behavior.

H said that because he care deeply for me that his feeling are all mixed up and it has been very hard for him to just let go. He cried a lot. Now, I am all mixed up too. He told me these things three times yesterday, and I finally did blow up on him. I was not too mad, but I told him I am an adult, I am not stupid and I am not asking him to be there for me anymore.

I told him that I understand he asked for a D and he wants to move on with his life and I have been respecting it, that I can't change it and I just want him to be happy with whatever decision he makes.

I think I need to go dark, get some good distance from him. I am not sure, but maybe he is not seeing my changes.

I need to regroup and reassess my goals, I am a mess today.

So much for being strong, I am just so weak.

Hope you are feeling better then me today.

Hugs!

[Sotto]

Gosh - you have had an eventful time! Well, it sounds better than having an awful conversation about D and just having to accept that (for now at least) that's it...

It sounds as though your H is conflicted, and he's a nice man - he sounds concerned that you are having a rough time etc.. I suppose the thing that this doesn't help with is detachment!

But I'm partly envious - Part of me wishes I had shared a bed with my H this weekend even with OW in the picture!

Well, I think you should be gentle with yourself. Golly, this is a hard enough experience to get through....we can't be getting perfect 10's all the time now can we?

But your plan to regroup sounds like a good one. Until or unless OW is history and he is keen (falling all over himself) to recommit to the M, you risk a 'cake-eating' scenario - he can't fully let go of OW or you.....you meet some needs, she meets others...painful - and could extend timescales.

It may be an idea to read again the LRT advice in DR. I think this applies in your sitch - as in mine - on the basis that you are currently S and there is some talk of D.

Have you posted some specific goals with some early actions towards them? It might be an idea to get all specific with yourself if you have just had a 'lapse' (for want of a better word.) Maybe also think about your boundaries - what is and isn't okay for you in this situation?

I have had a good day thanks - good PMA. I think weekends are the hardest, so I'll think about some more weekend GALs. I emailed 5 nice local stores to see if they might be interested in someone working part time. I already do some professional freelancing from home, but it would be nice to supplement that with something low pressure, local and more social.

I also identified a yoga class I would like to do in the new year. I've told myself I need to do at least one action a day towards GAL - until my life is full enough that I am happy with it. I feel better now that I'm 'fighting' again :-)

[Pink17]

Toots,

It's nice that your could have some contact with your H. What do you think about it Toots.

Do you feel he is taking some steps towards you? Do you know if he is with OW?

I am glad you moving forward, having some good PMA, getting busy with so much GAL activities, getting yourself set up in your awesome new flat. It's all fantastic and I think you should be very proud of yourself.

But what is next w/H. What do you think will be happening with him? Does he sees you once in a while?

In your title it says you dropped the rope, did you?

I'm just asking because it feels you are OK moving forward. And that is perfect fine if that is what you want. Is that what you want?

I still think I want to get back w/H. I want to recover our M and built an strong R. One day it feels there is hope and the next it's very hard to see we are going to make it.

How do you see your situation right now?

I feel good that I decided to open my heart and put all my issues out there. I really hope that my IC approach will help me fully. I want to be happy again. I want to show H that my attitude is better and that I am more of a woman he met 18 years ago.

By the way on December 14 it's our anniversary. Well, I wonder how this one will be. Maybe I will invite him to go out for dinner or a drink, he keeps saying he is my H and that I am still his W, so...or maybe not.

Hugs,
Pink

[okjpc]

Pink, just want to say good luck leading up to and getting through your anniversary. I hope it's a good one for you both.

[Sotto]

Hi Pink

Yes, good luck from me too. I didn't hear from H on our ann. Or on my Bday. But I got thru them both & time moves on.

As for H & his texts - IDK. At one time after BD his texts were curt - yes, OK, cool, fine etc. often just one word. Then they got more friendly and I wondered if things were shifting towards us. Then he told our friend that our R is over, and he wants to have a new family with someone else (not necessarily AP).

So at the same time as sending me chatty texts, this was what he was saying to other(s). I guess I just feel pretty negative about him/us since then.

My guess is he is still with AP, but it really wasn't going well with them. Her OM was still in the picture, H giving ultimatums, them nearly breaking up etc. lots of drama. So I would be surprised if it lasts.

But, who my H has become.....he isn't very 'loveable.' I haven't yet closed the door on our R, but I am moving forwards, not moving 'on' yet, but forwards.

I can see that if the A ended & he was keen to reconcile, my feelings could well change a lot. But I have been doing lots of work on 'me' and TBH, I don't want an H who can't say what he wants, avoids doing the decent thing and lies.

I plan to go pretty dark over Xmas. All he gets from me ATM is DB breeziness and busyness. I'll carry on as I am & see how I feel in the new year.

Sorry if this sounds negative. I haven't given up on our M yet. I guess I have just hardened my position, and this is how I feel ATM. But I'm crying as I write this, so I'm clearly not done yet....

Toots :-)

[Pink17]

Toots,

It is a very hard transition, everything crash down on us and we don't even have too much of a choice.

You are a very nice and gentle person, maybe the Universe have a plan for you to be even happier. I think about this a lot. I even know some people that tough their lives were over while going through the D and then found happiness they never expected.

Our situation is not the same but very similar. My H is nice, have a nice attitude towards me but still says he is moving on. Even said that he can't bring himself to forget how unhappy he was in our R.

Then I think about the times that I want to D him. How I was feeling many times I want that he would just disappear and I would have some peace inside.

I guess it's part of detaching. I have been trying not to think about him all the time. And it's not so bad after all. I do love him, but I am also hurt with the fact that he didn't want to work on our M, even tough I have been asking him for a long time. It was easier for him to just jump to another R.

I admire the work you have been doing on yourself and the strength that is growing on you. One day your H will look back and find out he made a big mistake.

Lots of hugs to you.
Pink

[okjpc]

Thanks, Toots, for your honesty. I think it's a d**k move to not acknowledge the anniversary and bday. My anniversary is next week (on Dec. 21). I'm fully expecting my W not to acknowledge, but my DB coach and IC both think I should (and i want to) with a card, but keep the message brief. My IC says I don't have much to gain by sending an anniversary card, but she may well hold it against me if I don't.

I've checked in on these threads and seen posts from people on days they're feeling strong/detached/etc. and on days when the pain is really acute. It's very comforting to see both. It makes all these feelings seem so human and understandable. And i think for you and me both, the pain is part of a process that is moving in the right direction. I'll be sending you my best thoughts today.

[Pink17]

Toots,

Hope you are having some fun time with your GAL events. Thinking of you. Wish life is treating you well.

Hugs,
Pink

[Sotto]

Had to cancel my GALing this weekend. I am tucked up in bed with a sore throat and a fever. Hopefully, I'll be all better soon...

[Bunches]

Feel better Toots!

[Pink17]

Dear,
I am so sorry you are not feeling good today. Please, take good care after yourself. Chicken soup is good for the soul and for your cold.

During these times of intense emotions, stress, it's very hard to keep eating the healthy stuff, but remember that you are very important and deserve a good health, so you can concentrate in your mission here.

Rest, eat healthy and take your meds. Hopefully you will be back on your feet tomorrow.

My prayers are with you.

Lots of hugs,
Pink

[Sotto]

Thanks Pink. I did get up, have a bath & get dressed today....and generally felt better than yesterday. That said, I just started feeling ropey again & am having a lie down with my hot water bottle.

BF rang today to see how I am. Any word from his Lordship? She asked...

We talked about the weirdness of everything. How he knows our R is over and hasn't told me. How he is issuing ultimatums to OW thousands of miles away. How he wants a 'new' family.

It has many hallmarks of MLC we felt...

Hope all is well with you??

Toots ()

[rd500]

Hi Toots. Just read your posts and sorry you find yourself I this sitch. You seem to be doing well generally and have a good PMA Things happen for a reason and we have yet to understand our reasons. I do believe we will all be happy again one day. Let's hope that day is soon. When I read these posts I so wish we could have a Xmas party because we all seem really nice people !!!!!!! Take care. Re

[Sotto]

Yes, wouldn't that be great, especially if we could bring 'partners' ;-)

I've also thought, wouldn't it be interesting if our spouses were all on a forum just like us. Would they be saying things like..

Gee, my W never responds to my texts straight away now, it's always an hour later...

Or, whenever I see my H now, he always reeks of cologne and wears sharp trousers
And, if I talk to her about D, she just says....I guess I'll have to think about that..:-)

[Sotto]

Being ill (chest infection), home alone and not able to GAL hasn't been good for my PMA! Too much time to dwell on R. Today I feel pretty angry about things. I sat down and wrote a big letter to H (which I won't post.) It boils down to 3 things:

1. How could he ever think it was okay to tell others that our R is over (and that he knows in his future he wants a family) without telling me. He told others back in October and still hasn't told me. How can that be okay??!!!

2. It feels unfair to have incurred the censure/poor opinion of my PIL. H hasn't told them about the A. "It's hard to tell your Ps you had an A." He 'presumes' they know. From the brief, cool tone of their emails, I feel they think I have done something wrong.

3. Money - H Initially said 'just take what you need from the joint account - you know I'm not worried about money". Then, when I asked, he gave me money for a 6 months rental, saying "you really need to be self sufficient after that." Bear in mind I have always earned and contributed to our joint family costs.

I know it was my decision to leave our MH and job, but it was as a result of his infidelity. I texted him today on this one, asking to use the joint account for food & fuel to save me using up my modest savings. Maritally, we are very wealthy - H earns a six figure salary. It's galling for me to be worried about money when he has retained full use of our main house (half paid for by me originally) and our flat in the city, plus his six figure salary. So..

*At what point do I 'call' him on the fact that I know he has told other people our R is over, but not me?

*Do I tackle the PIL issue, saying I'm not willing to feel censure when I have done nothing wrong. Give him a period of time to tell them, if not I will.

I'm feeling many consequences - practical, financial and emotional. And I feel he is dodging them. (Maybe not true, but how I feel) I won't do anything until the New Year, and I know I need legal advice, I'm working up to that - feels like a big step...

[Bunches]

Just my thoughts on your points here. I think what he is willing to tell others is meaningless. My STBX said a lot of things to others over the first several months that I heard about but now tells me nothing but respectful things and swears that she has only ever told people about what a great guy I am. Your H may be willing to say things to others in a moment or around certain crowds for all kinds of reasons.

If you are thinking of approaching the PIL's I would only caution that it not get into a debate or a he said / she said sitch. H is their S and he may have told them something untrue or one sided but it won't do you any favors to point him out as a liar. If anything it may be best to stick with H first on what he has told them. I personally think its fair to say you are not going to keep his secrets and tell them so long as he knows that so its not a personal attack or looks like an attempt to control.

As for the money I would say you have to get to the lawyer. Only they can give you fair definition on your rights. But keep in mind L's will usually push you to take things further than it need go. Just defend what is fairly yours without unnecessary fighting. It sounds like H is going to be selfish over money and may not react well to even division but you are just going to need to stand your ground.

I hope that helps. Sorry you are having a tough time and are sick. Feel better!!

[Sotto]

Thanks for the advice Bunches. H responded to my money query, with a pleasant "of course Toots" - so I feel a bit better now.

He told a friend of ours that when he and I D, we will sell our marital home and I will walk away with 50% of that (which I put in anyway) and that's it. Our friend (who has just D) said "really?" with an incredulous look. She told me - I don't think he realises that a settlement is likely to favour you much more than that.

He regards all other assets as 'his.' I think he will be shocked to find out that they are 'ours.' It will be an inconvenient truth. Weird - he has divorced before....he knows the ropes! I feel something approaching an even split of all assets would be fair. There is his S to consider, and this may mean less than 50% for me. He had no money when we met, so all assets have been built up during our R (with my loving support of course :-)

Hope you're having a good day...