Let's try this again

[T384]

So I guess with the boards being down my long post vanished. I posted in piecing awhile back and didn't get much traffic and was redirected here so I'm not really sureeeeee I for in although I'm not done DB'ing

We definitely still have a lot of things to work on and I still read this forum often although it is hard to keep up with everyone.

We have MC again this week and boy do we need it. Well I really need it. I still have the thoughts in the back of my mind of can I really forgive H. On the outside and to him it seems I have but internally I really struggle with it.

I also see both of us exhibiting old behaviors that I'm trying to change. For ex : he insists on fixing the water pipes (weeks without hot water) he wants to save the5k and have his contractor friend and him do it - great! I was all for it. But weeks have passed and nothing was done. I tried my best to DBthis. H - I know you've been so busy doing stuff around the house etc but I really want to be able to take a hot shower. It's been a few weeks and we have gotten no where. If there's something I can help with to get it moving or if it would be better to hire someone I think we should. You have a lot on your plate and I'm desperate for a hot shower (I said it while laughing)

He then reverts to his old ways and goes on about how he needs certain things to get it done and wasn't anticipating that but he will take care of it sometime this week (this has been the excuse for awhile now) then opens the door to walk out (aka avoid the conversation) and says all I do is nag. I bite back and says he hasn't changed one bit since he can't even have a normal conversation with me (not once before this was it yelling or arguing) and he said bc all I do is nag. Ugh. This is not what I want. We had a date night last night that went great but he cannot have a conversation when it's something HE doesn't want to discuss and I really don't know how to DB that. I can't just never bring up issues he doesn't like.

I feel like there's no way to go around bringing up things he doesn't want to discuss he just shuts down.

Trying my best to avoid getting myself into the situation I've been in the last 6 months. I feel like H is sorry but I don't feel like he is trying as much as he was. I've voiced concerns to him and all I get are excuses --- I'm busy your busy our work schedules are hard.

[Card29]

It's great to hear from someone who has started piecing. Keep strong and don't rush it!



How are you trying to meet his ENs? Has he read or learned anything about your ENs (and ENs in general) and how important it is that he fulfills them?

[Maybell]

T, I spent last night with friends who each have an IC and then share an MC. Their three counselors get together periodically to discuss my friend and his wife and coordinate the treatment so they make the most of their time in counseling. It seems to have done amazing things for them, I was wondering if you had tried a coordinated approach like that?

I'm sorry you are struggling so much. Hot water seems like a pretty fundamental thing. I went without it for a month in my early twenties when I lived in a very cr@ppy apartment building and the residents put together a class action suit to compel the repairs. I can't imagine how frustrating it is to deal with this problem with so little recourse.

Best to you.

[JCred]

This is not what I want. We had a date night last night that went great but he cannot have a conversation when it's something HE doesn't want to discuss and I really don't know how to DB that. I can't just never bring up issues he doesn't like.

You have forgotten what worked for you to bring him back and you stopped doing it.

Here is your answer...

Pay to get the pipes fixed without his consent.
Don't be mad about it, just get it done.
Just tell him AFTER you have set up the contractor to do the work. Tell him... "I DECIDED (use the word decided) to get the pipes fixed and a contractor is coming over on _____(fill in the date)"

You will then find that he suddenly WANTS to talk about it or argue about it.. Either way he will suddenly want to discuss it in some manner...

That is when YOU do what he always does to you on the issues he doesn't want to talk about...

You tell HIM.. "I already have them coming to fix the pipes and I really don't want to talk about it anymore. I realized that you are right about the nagging and so I decided to stop the nagging and wasn't willing to wait anymore." (firm, confident, resolved.) Then tell him you don't want to talk about it anymore... (same thing he does to you)

Here is how it should play out...

YOU make the decision without his input.....
He then will want to talk about it....... or if he still doesn't want to talk about it, the issue is solved because the pipes will be fixed.....
You then be the one who doesn't want to talk about it IF and when he does bring it up. (you can't be a nag if HE is the one to bring it up)......

When he does, then you tell him you already made the decision because he told you he doesn't want you to nag him about it and you decided that you aren't going to live without hot water. Then cut the conversation short by saying that YOU don't want to talk about it.. Don't be angry or mean.. As I have told you numerous times... Confident, firm and resolved... Remember.. YOU be the one who doesn't want to talk about it. It will only be effective when YOU take the bull by the horns and find someone else to do what he promised...

Easy, peasy, Japaneasy...
You win either way.. The pipes get fixed... You haven't nagged.. The issue of the pipes goes away..

You are AGAIN trying to rely on a man who doesn't seem to be very reliable over the long term... Stop fighting it and go with it.. Make it happen on your own. Confident, firm and resolved. No anger... Less said the better..

[JCred]

Bottom line here TO is..

" I WILL NOT be without hot water anymore."

It isn't up for negotiation. You aren't being mean..
Just tell him you aren't going to do it anymore.. So, you decided to hire it done.

I've learned over the years that when I hire a contractor or need something done at my house that if the contractor is late to the appointment to give me a quote that this is a red flag. Chances are he will be late to do the work, or not finish the work, or not follow through on most everything.. I have found to just eliminate them right off the bat... They aren't worth the "cheaper" price... I am more satisfied to pay someone more money who is on time, does what they say they will do. This has saved me a ton of headaches.. Just eliminate them if they don't show promptness and organization. It isn't worth the aggravation to save money.... Same goes for hiring friends or family just to save money.. It usually just isn't worth the aggravation...

Same goes with your husband.. Here you think you are saving money and it is causing you both tons of aggravation.. Is that worth your marriage? I say NO..

PAY someone who will get it done. Problem solved....

[T384]

Thank you both -

Maybell I haven't tried that approach but it sounds intriguing.

I have re read DB and DR with a different perspective. I really feel there is a lot I have changed but I still have so much work to do on myself. I started posting here in April 2 months after BD but I didn't really start 'getting it' until June. I can't believe it's been almost 2 months with H back in my life. We have come so far but when others said piecing was the hardest part they weren't lying!

I actually have heard of that book. I will look into it. I was thinking of asking H to take the 5LL even though I'm pretty certain he's words of affirmation and physical touch but I would like to see to make sure.

This is definitely a work and progress but we bth want the same things and both don't ever want to be where we were for those 6 months. It's not an easy road but we are trying to navigate it together.

[woundedfool]

Thanks for the new thread, I saw your other one but alas.... it was been flushed away by the purge.

I would ask about the water issue. Why is he even handling it?

If you are expecting him to handle it without prodding/nagging/etc. Why would you have created that expectation?

What is to keep you from handling it? 2 months ago you were getting cars fixed, juggling 2 jobs & knocking it out of the park as a parent.

I guess I would ask: What is the mission here? To prove he can get a "deal"? or to get hot water so you can bathe, eat, and do laundry?

[T384]

I had made arrangements for the water to be fixed and actually had it fixed in august and now another leak.

So I picked up extra at work and made arrangements to have the entire house repiped. Well H says don't pay all that money to do it I can do it with my friend (he's a GC). I attached an expectation bc I told H I don't feel comfortable with you doing it you have a lot on your plate and it's a pretty extensive job and I really want hot water back. He insisted on it. Here we are a few weeks later with no change.

I'm still juggling everything for the most part with H's help. I still work both of my jobs because this R is still a work in progress and I can't drop everything I've learned and created just because he decides he wants to work things out.

[woundedfool]

So how is "Water"-gate going?

[T384]

We have hot water!! Hallelujah!

[JCred]

We have hot water!! Hallelujah!

[woundedfool]

We have hot water!! Hallelujah!

And who facilitated/handled the repair?

[T384]

It is a temporary fix until the entire house gets repiped but H had it ready when I got home from work 2 nights ago

[woundedfool]

did you thank him? or otherwise offer sincere encouragement for getting it done?

[T384]

So MC was rescheduled due to a change in my work schedule. It is early next week. I have been contuining to GAL. Went out for wine with some girls after work last night. I let H know I was appreciative of him taking care of the boys and house (getting school stuff ready). I am working hard behind the scenes to make my changes stick. H and I talked quite a bit last night. About our feelings and argument over the hot water and the bigger picture. We both had a calm conversation about how we both feel and things we need to continue to work on.

It is his birthday this weekend. Last year I threw a big surprise party in the city at a rooftop bar that I rented out. Pretty sure I won't be topping that this year with Everything going on and $$$ issues. He said he is just good with us going to dinner and taking the boys on the boat this weekend.

Piecing is hard work. Just because your WAS wants to R doesn't mean this DB journey is over. For me I feel like an entire other level of DB started and it's definitely still a marathon. I still struggle. I'm working on trying to be consistent in my changes and recognize my faults that I can change so that I don't wind up here again. I still, like I've said before, catch myself going down the dead end road of some old behaviors. I especially notice this when I feel some anger towards how everything went down while H was gone. So I would love to say I've let go completely but not yet. I know I will fully forgive one day. It gets easier as H is better and consistent in his actions.

I don't even know where I'm supposed to be posting do I apologize if it should to be here. I just don't feel were there yet and I'm not done DB'ing

[woundedfool]

We both had a calm conversation about how we both feel and things we need to continue to work on.

How big is that? I mean really, from where you were to where you are right now.

Stop and smell the roses... that is a huge thing.

But don't rest on it... keep the positive changes going.

So I would love to say I've let go completely but not yet. I know I will fully forgive one day.

This may sound vindictive... but while forgiveness is imperative. I think it would be naive to suggest that forgiveness = forgotten. I am not suggesting you carry a torch for it the rest of your life (or use it as a trump card in any discussion/argument/etc), but your healing from that will not only take a loooooong time.

I don't even know where I'm supposed to be posting do I apologize if it should to be here. I just don't feel were there yet and I'm not done DB'ing

I would say keep it here in newcomers. If this was better moderated (sorry moderators, I know there are not tons of you, and you can only do so much... but you ARE loved <3).

[T384]

Oh yes super huge positive compared to where I've been in this entire journey.

Forgive but not forget. I have said that so many times. I will forgive but I won't ever forget. I also don't mean that as negative but more so just honest and real.

[Ss06]

TO, I am happy to see positive things in your sitch.

I just wanted to caveat the forgive and forget thing...

It's important to not forget, yes, but make the remembering more about your feelings and less about the actions. Does that make sense? Remember how you FEEL about the actions you are forgiving. Move on from the action.

It makes sense in my head but sometimes I have issues with getting the awesome stuff from my head into words. LOL

[sandi2]

I still have the thoughts in the back of my mind of can I really forgive H. On the outside and to him it seems I have but internally I really struggle with it.

I don't have any particular advice about this, however, it seems to happen a lot with people. The LBS is so hyper-focused on wanting the WAS back until it's like a delayed emotion that hits them later when they don't know if they can forgive.

In the beginning, all you could think about was H coming home. How much resentment are you really feeling now? I am concerned you will try to push all that down, in order to carry on going forward. I wish you two had giving it more time, but I understand.

Don't hold back on expressing your frustrations, hurt, etc., during the C sessions. It won't heal and can't get it worked out unless it is all laid out.

Ironic, isn't it? Sometimes life just suks.

[T384]

SS - thank you, yes it does make sense but unfortunately all the feelings I feel are difficult to deal with and manage at times but it's getting better.

Sandi - I wish I could have give more time than allowing him to move back in.. It will be about 10 weeks when he moves back in. Financially it just wasn't really possible. A lot of our issue preDB were financial related and we both didn't want the finances to be a hardship anymore than they already will be from the debt H has accrued. I am by no means making excuses for him just trying to explain it better. Ideally we would have dated and spent more time figuring things out. Luckily I am still working my second job until December so it puts us crossing paths on my days off and it allows him to run the household when he moves back in on the days I am at work (I leave the house at 5am and usually don't get home until 9pm) so it is good for the boys and me as well for him to manage the household.

The divorce is not gone. We are on the 6 month abatement so we will revisit that when the 6 months is up. H is the man/husband/father I've always known him as and an even better man than he was pre DB. But geez couldn't he have found this out by something less traumatic! What's done is done but it still stings.

I feel C is a safe place. I have verbalized a lot of hurt and my feelings in C because the C helps H see it from someone else's perspective besides mine. The C is very neutral. He really likes H but believes he was very depressed and made rash decisions and surrounded himself with people that were his army that supported his decisions. He said I should treat him like he was on drugs. What matters is that he realized what he's done and he's getting help but he needs to earn my trust and prove that he's genuine.

The big thing I struggle with is did H come back because Ow broke up with him? I've asked. He stands by no. But I KNOW she ended it. But I can't give up my intel. He says yes she told him she needed a break and yes the first day he was really upset and Would have worked things out with her. But he said after that first day he finally had time to himself in his own place for the first time since he left in February. He said it was the. He was able to get his head out of his a$s and think wtf am I doing. He also said that the reason she wanted time apart is because things were getting weird between them because since june he was questioning wha he was doing and it caused fights between them. Them fighting so much is why he got is own apartment (so he says) apparently she moved in to her dad's to live wth H and they were arguing all the time so he said he just up and left and got his own place. He also told me she snooped through his phone a lot and would always ask about my texts and would often reply to me ( I had a feeling because I know how my H 'types' and some of the things were off).

Anyway.. None of that really matters because it is the past but wondering why he came back still gets to me. Is he being honest? the sad part is I don't know that I'll ever truly know.

[T384]

And wounded yes I definitely did convey to him how thankful the boys and I were.

[woundedfool]

Sandi - I wish I could have give more time than allowing him to move back in.. It will be about 10 weeks when he moves back in. Financially it just wasn't really possible. A lot of our issue preDB were financial related and we both didn't want the finances to be a hardship anymore than they already will be from the debt H has accrued. I am by no means making excuses for him just trying to explain it better. Ideally we would have dated and spent more time figuring things out. Luckily I am still working my second job until December so it puts us crossing paths on my days off and it allows him to run the household when he moves back in on the days I am at work (I leave the house at 5am and usually don't get home until 9pm) so it is good for the boys and me as well for him to manage the household.

I agree you should have had more time before moving back in, not to be totally punitive; but in that spirit: He made his bed, now sleep in it. Plus it give a chance for you to have some "you time". But if the wheels are already in motion to change.... as long as you are comfortable, and still recognize the need to stay on top of old habits.... so be it.

But geez couldn't he have found this out by something less traumatic! What's done is done but it still stings.

No real suggestion here, other then: there is no "harm" is keeping that abated... in fact (and as always IANAL) it probably protects you from his decisions during the separation.

The big thing I struggle with is did H come back because Ow broke up with him? I've asked. He stands by no. But I KNOW she ended it.

Anyway.. None of that really matters because it is the past but wondering why he came back still gets to me. Is he being honest? the sad part is I don't know that I'll ever truly know.

You kind of said it... none of it really matters. Would you feel better if he left because of a pregnancy scare? an accident? financial reasons? drug or alcohol problem? legal problem? Hell, I think I even specifically said something like "19girl is a typical teenager... she will dump him once the novelty wears off, or wakes up and realizes: holy crap, I am dating a 40 year old". So you might need to put her on your Christmas card list for the gift she gave you.

Whatever the reason, it was serendipitous... don't look a gifthorse in the mouth.

[T384]

I am comfortable with him coming back as long as the changes are still happening and bad habits aren't resurfacing. You know MC is actually what even let me be open with the idea of letting H come home. I really hadn't planned on it based on what everyone was advising me here and my fear.

I hope I am not making a mistake. I trust the MC and my gut says go with it. But I def think I would have liked more courting, dating, pursuing. Oh well again. It's done. We have been having weekly date nights at H's initiation and planning (for the most part).

And the only reason why I brought up who ended it is because I want an H that is back bc he wanted to me because we were his first choice. Not bc he got dumped and was lonely.

[woundedfool]

And the only reason why I brought up who ended it is because I want an H that is back bc he wanted to me because we were his first choice. Not bc he got dumped and was lonely.

Oh... don't misunderstand me. I would not want to be a plan "B" either.

I have no real thoughts or advice here, other then:

I think you want to hear: "yea, she dumped me, and I realized I couldn't do better"

when it might be: "she dumped me, and I no longer had her as a distraction, I really took a moment to see what I was doing, and thought: you dumb SOB, you had everything a man could want and walked away... you better get your a$$ in gear and work to get 2B back!".

[T384]

So just a question ... H had been consistently texting/calling everyday to wish me a good day and tell me he loved me. I have not reached out first but would always reply thank you hope you do too. The last few days he hasn't initiated and neither have I. I'm unsure of how to look at this. Is he putting less effort and getting comfortable because moving home is on the table? Do I bring it up? Do I start initiating? Sorry for all the questions. It just makes me a bit uncomfortable that this has ceased. The C said H should be doing all the work which is why I thank him but never iniate the texts.


Any thoughts are appreciated

[woundedfool]

Experiment & monitor.

Maybe fire a text with a ... hey were was my good morning text?

see if it keeps up?

But that being said.... I am a little thrown off by the C's line (or at least how you absorbed it):

The C said H should be doing all the work

While I would agree he needs to put in a lot of work.... I don't think that means you only need to be a spectator.

[JCred]

s he putting less effort and getting comfortable because moving home is on the table? Do I bring it up? Do I start initiating? Sorry for all the questions. It just makes me a bit uncomfortable that this has ceased. The C said H should be doing all the work which is why I thank him but never iniate the texts.

Yep.. He's getting comfortable.
No don't bring it up.

[T384]

He meant H needs to be doing the work of pursuing. We both need to be doing the work of repairing our marriage but H needs to be doing the work of setting up dates and pursuing me.

I feel he's getting comfortable and really don't know how to contend it.

[woundedfool]

I feel he's getting comfortable and really don't know how to contend it.

Like I said... experiment and monitor, stop going down a cheese-less tunnel.

[woundedfool]

Well, anything new?

[T384]

I've been sick for the last couple days and combine that with unable to call into work = not a happy camper!

However- we did go to MC yesterday. The counselor said he sensed a lot more anger between the two of us yesterday. He wants us to come back within 2 weeks to see him. I was actually working (C is right across the street) and got called for an emergency so I had to leave and H stayed to talk with C.

He asked how things were going. I brought up with C that I felt H was getting comfortable, H was stuck in traffic so we had a few minutes to chat. The C brought this up to H without it sounding like I said something to him. H came up with the same schpeel he gave me (me working 2 jobs, him having a new job, being busy with the boys, and attempting a bathroom remodel). My response was something to the sorts of me being appreciative of all of those things but that nothing to me has really changed in our situation. We were just as busy in august when he was making every stride possible.

We also got into finances. Which H said was our main problem. And most of why he left in the first place. I told the C I don't feel comfortable with joint accounts and I also feel everything should be split 50/50. It's not right now. H said he wanted me at home more and I had diarrhea of the mouth...

I basically said no. I don't feel comfortable losing this opportunity that has allowed me to maintain the boys lifestyle and mine during our S. How do I know H is just not going to come home one day? I am worried about protecting myself and the boys and I can't lose the opportunity financially to do that right now because he wants to R. If there's something I learned during this it is that I have to protect the boys and I and make sure this is right. I hope one day that will change and hopefully soon but it hasn't for me yet. I just don't trust H. He stole money out of my savings while I was out of the country on a vacation he stood the boys and I up for. Everything was pretty quiet after that.

The C told H he sees a lot of hurt in me and fear. H said rightfully so and that he knows this is going to be a long road.

The C continues to encourage us to have our 1 night a week date night and to make a point to talk 10 minutes a day at least about fun stuff (not kids work or house stuff). He said this because of my schedule. I leave the house at 530a and get home around 8-9pm. For example. I am working 8 out of the next 10 days - hence why he said even to just take 10 minutes a day to connect on the days I work.

[woundedfool]

I've been sick for the last couple days and combine that with unable to call into work = not a happy camper!

You were sick and now Ebola is creating a panic/retraining/overtime (added pressures on RN's). I think its safe to assume you have been busy/tied up.

But, check back in... how is it going?

[T384]

This Ebola mess is crazy ... Especially working in a children's ICU/trauma unit. I feel lucky not to work in an urgent care or ER. Work has been crazy.. There was a family shooting this morning... A father shot all of his children after a fight with his wife... It is heart breaking. We do a lot of wonderful things where I work and save a lot of lives but it seems there have been more lives lost in the past month than saved. I work with a great group of nurses and physicians which helps but I can't say some days I don't question if my heart is cut out to see a family cry over losing a child ... To be honest it scares the sh*t out of me and if I could put my kids in a bubble I would probably try. Please put helmets on your children, use seat belts, look both ways before crossing the road, and get your babies swim lessons!! Okay I'm off of my soap box


H and I are headed down south this weekend. We are going to see a concert tonight and staying at the hard rock and will be doing some gambling

Things have been okay. We still struggle. H ex boss sent H a text (if you recall H asked him or any of them not to contact him. Well last Saturday he sent H a text saying if you know anyone that does good work send them to me, H replied okay.

He didn't tell me about this until I randomly asked if he had heard from anyone. He said he didn't think it was a big deal bc it was work related and he only said okay. I felt he should have ignored ex boss. Am I out of line? Our agreement was no communication UNLESS it was in person like at an auction or something business related. Ex boss has a lot of friends that could potentially hurt his new job and H doesn't want to do that to his new boss if that makes sense. H told me if he ignored ex boss he would go running his mouth and hurt his new jobs business (same industry).

I was very upset not so much by the text but that H is more concerned with making ex boss mad and hurting his new job. I get where he's coming from but we had an agreement. Any thoughts?

I hope everyone has a wonderful weekend. Thanks for checking on me Wounded- I hope you are doing well

[Zues126]

I see both sides of this reply. I get it violated a technicality of a verbal agreement. Personally though I see that a one word reply may deescalated the situation. Not replying at all sends a strong message that there is bad blood and they are enemies. And while that's not far off, to send an 'OK' reply to me means 'we're not enemies, but I'm not able to continue dialogue with you'. It would've been a lot different if he started suggesting potential hires, meeting for lunh to discuss, etc.

I sense that you are very insecure with your H's past behavior and he level of his recommitment. I know there is a balance between standing up for yourself vs becoming crazy and controlling. Has he done other things that make you feel he is violating your boundaries? That might be important context here.

Bottom line, I think the text isn't a big deal. I think if its part of a pattern then you address the pattern and why that is important to you. At the same time I'd make sure you have done what you can to have recognized what he HAS done. If I had been trying to recommit to a M and was doing my best but felt I couldn't win and my W would never forgive me and be suspicious and hyper critical forever because of it that would make it a pretty miserable M in my book. Any gets have advice?

[jim0987]

I can understand why it would bother you, but like Zeus I can see both sides. Is it the text that bothers you or that he didn't tell you?

[woundedfool]

This Ebola mess is crazy

Just keep reminding yourself of the basics... technique, technique technique. Wash early, wash often!

H and I are headed down south this weekend. We are going to see a concert tonight and staying at the hard rock and will be doing some gambling

Sounds fun, I actually have not been to Hollywood since the year Anna Nichole was found dead, I really need to get down to South Florida. Um.....You have any single female co-workers with a loose sense of morality?

He said he didn't think it was a big deal bc it was work related and he only said okay. I felt he should have ignored ex boss. Am I out of line?

Boy, that is tough. I can honestly say I would have probably responded the same as H did. I think it is fair to have the calm conversation: "I do understand, and your right... that message was not a big deal, and I think you response was TOTALLY correct. Furthermore, I appreciate and respect you telling me. But, I would appreciate it if you would let me know early on if they ever reach out to you again."

And then with a chuckle and a laugh maybe say: "I am sure there will come a day, when I will be able to trust HIM again... but I have a worry in my head about his motives"

I was very upset not so much by the text but that H is more concerned with making ex boss mad and hurting his new job. I get where he's coming from but we had an agreement. Any thoughts?

I do appreciate your frustration with the boss, but your H is right (to a degree). Nothing is served in his career by just being a jerk (like telling him off again, or ignoring). As a new employee he already has the deck stacked against him. The last thing he needs is ex-boss calling new-boss and saying: I can't believe you hired that idiot... don't you know he left his wife and kids and tried f**king my daughter? Oh and he stole from me!

Aside from repairing the family... career is weighing heavy on him. And as you mentioned before: finances are a big issue for you two, so I am sure he is quite conscious about the importance of consistently getting a paycheck.

I hope everyone has a wonderful weekend. Thanks for checking on me Wounded- I hope you are doing well

Thanks! you too, enjoy the Crue!

[T384]

It's more that he didn't tell me and also like I said that he makes me feel like he's more concerned with offending others vs. How it makes me feel. We've dropped it and Zues thanks for your insight. I am very insecure about H's intentions but I'm trying to work on that.

This is the first thing he's done that I know of. So I guess it's bothersome that he didn't tell me. He told me he didn't even think about it. I was at work and he just forgot about it. Which I do believe he forgot.

Thanks guys I appreciate your insight. I have to stay the strong independent person I have been. Just had a lapse. But I also have to stay stern that my boundaries are my boundaries

[SunnyB]

Thanks! you too, enjoy the Crue!

You just can't feel bad listening to Dr. Feelgood.

[T384]

Wounded -

Yes hand washing and the crazy hazmat suit they want us to wear. They also have just one person watching people gown up and down just to make sure it's done right.

And I actually have a very successful single friend that is always looking for a nice guy to hang out with ... Especially down south

So IRT the boss --- you know how I feel about him and his family but taking the high road (as I have) is the right choice. In moments of anger and hurt (as I know so well since this all started months ago) it is easy to let the fly out of the window and think there are better choices. But once I calm down and think about it the right choice is the high road. I have worked so hard to never mention her name or even talk to any of them despite run ins and mutual friends so it would su*k to throw that all away now over a text.

I think I will just tell H that I would appreciate it if in the future he would just tell me first and that I think his one word response is appropriate and that I appreciate he doesn't engage with any of them. Like I said I understand where H is coming from but I also have to stand up for myself.


Btw I did jokingly mention something about the lack of text/effort. Then made myself a little scarce for the next two days (stayed at a friends one night - I sometimes do this in a stretch of work days to save me on my commute so not something that would jump out to him) and low and behold he's back to what he was doing

[SunnyB]

BTW, H will be at the Hardrock tonight. Not for the Crue, for a different event. I'm not going.

[woundedfool]

Thanks! you too, enjoy the Crue!

You just can't feel bad listening to Dr. Feelgood.

Well said!

[T384]

We actually are seeing jason aldean and Fla Ga line

[woundedfool]

And how did it go?

[woundedfool]

Hello? testing: 1, 2, 3... is this thing on?

[T384]

Sorry I thought I updated a few days ago not sure what happened with the post.

So we had a great time and it was nice to be adults. Yesterday was our anniversary so on Sunday night we went to a theme park at night for a halloween event which was fun... Drinks, zombies, staying out til 4am... I am still recovering lol

Things are going well on the surface. I made an appt with C this week but I think I am going to go alone because I am still struggling. I have touched on it a TAD with H but not nearly as much as what I am dealing with because I don't know how to DB the issue much less deal with it in a way that is conducive to giving positive results.

So here are my issues...

1. Did he really leave exOW or did she leave him? Did he only come back because she left him? Would they still be together if it was up to him and they hadn't broke up? C says this doesn't matter as long as he is home but it matters to me. Am I second choice? Does he just not want to be alone? I remmeber the weekend before he asked me to dinner and was texting asking if we were making a mistake he was making all of these overly dramatic Facebook posts that he never knew what true love was until her and that his heart was broken and she showed him a real relationship. He said he had his head up his a** and that if it was the first day they broke up and she asked him back he would have probably worked things out but once he had a chance to separate himself from her and her family he was able to see what am I doing

2. How could he do everything? I know I will receive some 2x4s for this but I feel this is the place I can be 1000% honest about what feelings I have regarding everything. I don't get how someone that supposably loves me could put the boys and I through what he did. I mean he was pretty damn terrible for a long time. All the things he posted, his behavior, his lack of being a dad, etc. C said to treat him as if he was on drugs and believes H is truly remorseful. I am more so just struggling with that he brought someone else into our relationship. How he could share his life with someone else while I was at home with our boys. How could he be okay doing all of that and not think twice about it in 6 months. He still stands by that nothing happened until he left but I said you would have never left if you and her didn't start talking Inappropriately back in January every night til 1 he says I don't know we mostly talked about her truck. I said I don't believe that for a minute. You need to be honest with yourself. I finally started getting a okay yes probably and ya I guess we did talk about more stuff about you and I then we should have and she told me that I deserved better and I deserved to be happy.

3. Will he do it again? I know I will never know this I mean I wish I had the magic 8 ball but let's be realistic here lol. He was a man that I NEVER in a million years thought would cheat. I defended him for the first 2 months against allegations from HIS friends and mine because I never believed it was something he would do. I still struggle with if times get tough will he do it again? Will he turn to someone else instead of me and walk out? He swears up and down no but he also was the person that hated cheaters etc.

Anyway .. Sorry for the rant. These are just feelings I struggle with but on the surface we have a great time. I haven't brought these things up with H in quite awhile because he has already addressed the issues and I don't want to be a broken record because this is something I have to deal with. I fear he hasn't changed. He has gotten comfortable. He is not making as much of an effort as he was to make me feel secure. Don't get me wrong there's nothing he's actually doing wrong I guess it's just what he's not doing. I went from being chased to now it's just back to normal.

If anyone made it through this entire post I appreciate it. Piecing is rough. Still happy to be here most days though!

[claire7]

T0, I think you are brave but wise to be careful. Keep posting here...

[Zues126]

This reminds me of the story where a man travelled for hundreds of miles by foot to see the Buddha. When he got there he told Buddha about all of his problems. He asked the Buddha for advise. The Buddha simply shrugged and said: "you've listed for me 86 different problems. I cannot help you with any of them." The man was incredulous and asked what good it was to be enlightened. Buddha told him he could help with the 87th problem. When the guy asked what the 87th problem was the Buddha answered "you have the desire to be free of problems".

T0, all of this is real legit. I mean, I think if I was in your place I'd feel some of those feelings forever. And not only are they pain points that make you wonder if he even comprehends how deeply he wounded you, there is the legitimate concern about what the future holds.

But great job just posting it here. All I can think is that there is no solution. This is your R now. It consists of some joy and some heartache. If your H had t come back and you'd found a new man, your life would again consist of some joy and some heartache. Same if you were single. And guess what- even if your H hadn't left the first time, you STILL wouldn't had wounds caused by him that felt as deep relatively, that made you feel misunderstood or unappreciated at times, etc. And he certainly can't live a life in courting mode now any more than if he had never walked.

So I think this is one of those problems you don't really solve, you just kind of accept. I think you should go alone to IC, that's a good idea. See if IC thinks it would be good to know how this feels to you. Not to bring it up again and again, but because he is your H and should know your heart in a safe setting. But see what IC says.

As for H, beyond chasing you in the beginning, what changes has he made in the R from before BD? I know us LBS's are much different, and I personally feel prepared for things I never could've handled before. If my STBX and I were back together she would see a different person and have confidence that I had new tools, skills, etc. can you say that about your H?

Just curious. Please keep posting. You are both an inspiration that its possible and a reality check that it isn't easy.

[T384]

Thanks Claire

And Zues - I agree which is why I have tried not to bring it up to H since our last issue of ex boss texting him and him not telling me. Beyond that it hadn't been brought up because I realize this is something I have to deal with.

Trust me, I was convinced H was never turning around... I saw so many other posters with positives, my situation really had no positives. I was am still some days in shock that I'm here. It's been a roller coaster for sure. But as I wrote in my card to H yesterday - there is no other person id rather share it with.

I don't want to come off as I'm ungrateful or not happy. I am. But here I can be honest about anything. Not that I am not honest with H but let's be real he doesn't want to hear the same thing over and over.

As far as changes H has made... I see some but not many. We can have a doscussion better instead of him walking out like before if he didn't like what we were talking about. This is big. We really never had any huge issues except for financial disagreements. That was really the only thing we've disagreed on. Everything was joint our pay went into joint and we both spent whatever we wanted out of our joint account. That's not the case anymore. I have to protect myself. So we are separate. We split bills 50/50. This is working thus far but last week was my last day at my second job so I'm a little nervous because I forget what I make with just my one job lol.

The other change H has made is to be home more. But he is slipping a little and staying late some nights. But this is better than it was as he was working all the time.

[woundedfool]

1. Did he really leave exOW or did she leave him? Did he only come back because she left him? Would they still be together if it was up to him and they hadn't broke up? C says this doesn't matter as long as he is home but it matters to me. Am I second choice? Does he just not want to be alone? I remmeber the weekend before he asked me to dinner and was texting asking if we were making a mistake he was making all of these overly dramatic Facebook posts that he never knew what true love was until her and that his heart was broken and she showed him a real relationship. He said he had his head up his a** and that if it was the first day they broke up and she asked him back he would have probably worked things out but once he had a chance to separate himself from her and her family he was able to see what am I doing

I kind of addressed this before, but I will give it another shot:

Previously, I mentioned what the difference. In the spirit of an alcoholic having a moment of clarity, all it takes is one moment to have it, and say to yourself.... what the hell am I doing.

Whatever the trigger, don't look a gift-horse in the mouth. Just accept the gift.

But, if you don't find solace in that, think about it as ANY relationship.... She may have left him.... he may have left her... the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Could you sleep better (move forward) knowing maybe he put a demand on her, and she didn't want to comply? or vice versa? Again, somewhere in the middle?

C said to treat him as if he was on drugs and believes H is truly remorseful. I am more so just struggling with that he brought someone else into our relationship.

I will further this.... your in the medical community (so you saw it during clinicals): Would you still hold a candle for needing more reasoning if it was a diagnosed medical issue (bi-polar disorder? schizophrenia? depression?)? How about (and this is wild, off the cuff for example only) but what if the ex-boss actually had a deeper hand in this.... telling him he would lose his job if he didn't sleep with 19girl?

3. Will he do it again? I know I will never know this I mean I wish I had the magic 8 ball but let's be realistic here lol. He was a man that I NEVER in a million years thought would cheat. I defended him for the first 2 months against allegations from HIS friends and mine because I never believed it was something he would do. I still struggle with if times get tough will he do it again? Will he turn to someone else instead of me and walk out? He swears up and down no but he also was the person that hated cheaters etc.

By NO means am I advocating you just immerse yourself in his words, and to fully have trust in him again.

But, you have taken very prudent steps to protect yourself from the things without emotion (finances, the cars, etc.). Right now you are still working on healing your heart and mind, and that my dear will take a long time. Keep walking through this and put in the work on your side. Every kindness he does for you will help heal that scar, just keep your heart open to letting him help you heal.

Anyway .. Sorry for the rant. These are just feelings I struggle with but on the surface we have a great time. I haven't brought these things up with H in quite awhile because he has already addressed the issues and I don't want to be a broken record because this is something I have to deal with. I fear he hasn't changed. He has gotten comfortable. He is not making as much of an effort as he was to make me feel secure. Don't get me wrong there's nothing he's actually doing wrong I guess it's just what he's not doing. I went from being chased to now it's just back to normal.

Do you feel he is still putting in work? and following through with his commitments?

If anyone made it through this entire post I appreciate it. Piecing is rough. Still happy to be here most days though!

Made it through! But remember, where you are at.... there is a thousand members here who would literally cut off their right arm to be in your position right now. Count your blessings and keep up the good work.

[T384]

Yes I am grateful to be where I am and I know I probably wouldn't have gotten here and kept my sanity if it wasn't for this board. I have a feeling I would have done a LOT of regrettable things potentially during my moments of anger.

And wounded -

I get what you're saying. I know it's been discussed. It still is difficult though. It's away to say you can forgive and be happy your spouse is back but when put back in that position old feelings do arise. I'm just trying to deal with them as best as I can. Talking here definitely helps. I even feel better just reading your responses.

So I do think H is making an effort. Not as much as august-September but still making an effort. A couple weeks ago he wasn't making much of an effort and was semi distant during the time I found out about the text and we had an argument. I ended up having to work several days in a row so I found when I backed off (I was busy at work, no texting, was short with my responses) he pursued further. We do have a lot of work to do and he knows that as well. I guess a big thing is that he still wants to go to C when pre DB he wouldn't be caught dead in a C office.

Thank you all

[woundedfool]

It still is difficult though.

I never said it would be easy. You still have to put in work, the only difference now is you have two people fighting FOR the marriage, rather then one.

So I do think H is making an effort. Not as much as august-September but still making an effort. A couple weeks ago he wasn't making much of an effort and was semi distant during the time I found out about the text and we had an argument. I ended up having to work several days in a row so I found when I backed off (I was busy at work, no texting, was short with my responses) he pursued further. We do have a lot of work to do and he knows that as well. I guess a big thing is that he still wants to go to C when pre DB he wouldn't be caught dead in a C office.

Good, stay the course, and keep moving forward. Don't forget to keep putting DB principles into action (experimenting, communicating, etc.) and don't be afraid to broaden some other marriage help (retreats, encounters, workshops, etc.).

(In my best Halloween voice): But beware, be conscious you are not exclusively trying to repair the OLD marriage, work toward creating something NEW.

[T384]

Yes I agree it needs to be a new marriage and I believe H was all for that. But now he is getting comfortable. Not as much effort as the beginning. I mean quite normal of all relationships to pursue the way he did in the beginning. I have tried bringing it up and he says he is just stressed with work and all we have going on.

I get it and I try to validate it but honestly I don't want excuses.. We had different stressors the last few months and it didn't stop him from being more affectionate. When he is distant it makes me wonder what else is going on.

I'm ready for a getaway again. We just had his parents in town for the last 2 weeks. Both of my work commuter cars have broken down and we are still in the middle of a bathroom and kitchen remodel. All while dealing with an active lawsuit. So I get it.. Were busy. I just don't want to get in trouble again.

I've realized something I do that I imagine drives him nuts. I stress out about things. Especially things I can't control. And I want his reassurance that things will be okay. For example - when the car broke down I didn't find out until after we had put the boys to bed and then he tells me. I am up stressing all night about it.. Can we fix it? How much is it going to cost? How will I get to work? Blah blah. So I'm really trying to make a conscious effort to step back and let things be. We have MC again this week. This will only be our 4th time going since September. The C would like to see us more often but it's pretty far away. However I'm now done with my second job so we should have more time.

We are taking the boys to the mountains for
Thanksgiving. I had requested the time off during our S and planned on taking the boys alone so now H wants to go with us. He also booked a cabin for our annual Christmas-New Years vacation in the mountains up north. It was a nice change that he took the initiative and booked the cabin so I don't have to worry about it

[sandi2]

've realized something I do that I imagine drives him nuts. I stress out about things. Especially things I can't control. And I want his reassurance that things will be okay. For example - when the car broke down I didn't find out until after we had put the boys to bed and then he tells me. I am up stressing all night about it.. Can we fix it? How much is it going to cost? How will I get to work? Blah blah. So I'm really trying to make a conscious effort to step back and let things be. We have MC again this week. This will only be our 4th time going since September. The C would like to see us more often but it's pretty far away. However I'm now done with my second job so we should have more time.

I think this really needs to be addressed in counseling. Make sure he get it. My H always waited till I had my hand on the doorknob ready to leave for work.....then he started telling me everything that was due, and anything else that could have been said the previously. What stressed me was that it usually caused me to push the clock getting to work on time. I started asking him if there was anything I needed to know, in plenty of time.

[woundedfool]

I'm ready for a getaway again.

....Both of my work commuter cars have broken down and

....we are still in the middle of a bathroom and kitchen remodel.

....All while dealing with an active lawsuit.

....I'm now done with my second job so we should have more time.

....We are taking the boys to the mountains for
Thanksgiving.

.... He also booked a cabin for our annual Christmas-New Years vacation in the mountains up north.

So, I need to dance around this pretty lightly. Because I don't want to scare you off, or offend you. But I do want you to take a hard look at this. Plus I really don't want to be a party pooper. But:

Previously, you mentioned finances had been an issue with your R. But the things I list from your quote (while not exactly champagne and caviar type extravagant) are pretty big financial considerations.

Do you and H ever do any budgeting? or have communication about finances, or what your financial position is?

By no means am I suggesting you move to cut all expenses and move to Ramen Noodles as your nutrition source.... But man you both have a lot going on right now, plus you will see a net decrease in income as the 2nd job is now gone.

I am not looking for you to justify anything, but internally, actually put pen to paper and see what is coming in, and what is going out (be honest). If you are anything close to a negative, you should really consider some financial counseling as well.

[T384]

Sandi - I agree it needs to be addressed but his problem is more of not telling me until I ask.. He says he forgets if he doesn't tell me right at the time and he doesn't want to bother me while I'm at work. So I ask a lot of things but need a long term solution on how for him to let me know of things without me asking. Any thoughts?

Wounded - yes we have ALOT going on, that's always been the theme of our life hence the stress. The lawsuit is actually a good thing but still time consuming and mine alone to deal with. It's against our home insurance company for refusing to cover a claim from 2 years ago in the amount of 20k that we had to come out of pocket. So it has been stressful. But I just got word this week that the insurance is willing to settle. It's not exactly what we wanted but I'm willing to take a small cut just to be done and avoid trial. So it will be good to re cooperate what has been spent and cross the lawsuit off the list.

The bathroom and kitchen remodel is slow and steady and yes me being done with my second job cuts a LARGE amount of money coming in. But finances are separated and we split everything 50/50 so we both have enough to cover bills. He took a pay cut so he isn't making as much as he was and won't have enough to save each month but it should be temporary for him. I'm making enough to live comfortably and save a little each month. I'm also still picking up 1-2 extra shifts a month which brings in a pretty decent amount.. I've paid all my credit cards off so beyond my car loan and mortgage I'm debt free guess working all those crazy hours during our S paid off. H on the other hand acquired a lot of debt but that's on him and he's working on paying it off.

We do have money in investment accounts and the boys college is prepaid. We aren't rich by any means. However finances have been an issue for us before BD because I want to be saving money and planning for a rainy day/future and H doesn't seem to manage money very well. He does a lot of frivolous spending. So in all we are both working on paying all of our debt off. We are really hoping to refinance our house soon because we bought when I was 18 and the market was way better so our interest rate is high but we are slightly upside down. So we are stuck which stinks! Anyway. Sorry for the tmi about finances. Hopefully you understand a little better

[vossy]

Sandi - I agree it needs to be addressed but his problem is more of not telling me until I ask.. He says he forgets if he doesn't tell me right at the time and he doesn't want to bother me while I'm at work. So I ask a lot of things but need a long term solution on how for him to let me know of things without me asking. Any thoughts?

What if your H texted you the information? That way he can get it done when it is still on his mind, but it won't disturb you at work?

[T384]

What if your H texted you the information? That way he can get it done when it is still on his mind, but it won't disturb you at work?

That's usually how we communicate if there's something we need to talk about while I am working. Part of me believes this is something he needs to work on. I had mentioned part of something I realized about the two of us is he avoids confrontation. Me - let's just work it out and move forward because I hate letting things fester. I think we have to come to some sort of compromise. If anyone has any advice... I'm hoping to broach this subject in MC. H is forgetful. He really is but there has to be ways to conquer some of that. Maybe I can say something along the lines when we are on the subject of when something comes up just shoot me a text and if either one of us are busy we can talk about it when we have time or get home from work but at least it will be in text reminding us so we can't forget about it.

[woundedfool]

TO324 thanks for the response on finances. No it was not TMI, gives a pretty good picture. Now the crux of my answer would be... ok never mind.

But I will throw something out from the cheap seats:

Financially you seem to have a good awareness of where you are, and where you need to be. While its good you have concerns and awareness of H's finances, that is his issue to conquer. Not that you were focusing on his problem.... quite the opposite. You seem to have this well in hand (and don't worry, its OK to vent here).

Keep staying the course in this.

[T384]

So I have a dilemma and am so very angry but trying to handle this in the best DB way possible

H and I have made plans to leave next week for the mountains to see some of my family and stay through the weekend. Well H sends me a text today saying the boys and I can leave whenever we want. He isn't going, he can't afford to go and his boss can't pay him to be off Thursday and Friday and he can't afford to miss work.

So I haven't responded besides an okay. It was all I could muster up. I am fuming. He had no problem going on how many vacations all summer and standing the boys and I up for an 8 day cruise out of the country so I took 2 young ones alone. I mean whatever it was no big deal but the principle is how can you afford all of that all summer and now you can't afford to miss 2 days at work?!

I'm just so over getting the short end of the stick. I want to feel like the boys and I are a priority. He made every vacation with that family multiple times. But now his own he can't. He told me nothing will ever be good enough for me and all I care about is money! WTh! I said please tell me one time that I've brought up money with you since you came back. He said well you haven't but I know you think that. I said please do not put words in my mouth.

Anyway. I'm just really frustrated. Going to go home from work and take a hot shower and go to bed. Nothing good will come of this tonight. I should have been used to being a single parent over the summer. It's just disappointing they the man that came home in August has seemed to have vanished lately and Thais not something I'm willing to put up with.

[claire7]

I'm sorry to hear that. Is it possible that it's not really about the money but he is anxious about spending time with your family (being judged or not accepted)?

Or, is it possible that it is about the money, but the trips last summer were paid for by his old boss?

I feel like now, when you are actually in a relationship, is when the DB techniques are really useful. So many of us are just trying to get to where you are... but as I've heard, the piecing and reconciling is even harder than what came before that. It is so easy to fall back into old patterns.

But one person can change the dynamic. What can you do differently this time? What effect might it have if you "let him off the hook" resentment and anger free this time?

Is it possible to see this in another way?

Thinking of you.

[T384]

Claire. Thanks for the post. You must have been reading my mind.

I don't want to sound like a whiner because I know a lot of people would love to be where I am but I don't want to be here with someone that isn't putting in the effort. He had shown me in August and September he would do anything snd he has slowly backed off from that and I see old habits coming out in him and now this. He talks with my grandmother who we are going to see weekly and just told Her last week how excited he was so its not that.

So anyway I tried to 180 this. I ended up texting him that I would cover the money he would lose on not working so that he could come. I told him I picked up an OT shift and would cover it that we just wanted him to come. He explained that he needed to work thanksgiving too! Um huh? So I called him so we could talk. He sent me to voicemail. I got home he's sitting on the couch the boys are in bed and he hasn't said a word to me. He has his head down in his phone texting.

I ended up taking a long shower and am in the kitchen cleaning. Ugh why is this so difficult. Sometimes I wonder if he regrets coming back. Especially with this behavior. I really don't want to drive alone 10 hours with the boys each way in potential snow.

[claire7]

Careful.. don't mind read. Is it just grandma? Or lots of other family too?

What other communication skills have you developed that you can use? Is there a way to ask in an open ended way? (That doesn't put him on the defensive)

And, some times, spouses do have to work on holidays. It's possible, right? Let go of resentment. I know it is hard. That doesn't mean don't share how you feel (nervous about the drive, wanting to spend holiday with him), but let him make his own choices. You don't have to love his choice. But don't keep score or resent.

[Maybell]

T, I've been struggling to figure out what to say to you. I think Claire is on the right track. But I wanted you to know I'm here and pulling for you.

Since I'm on a gratitude kick during this week before Thanksgiving, I'd like to ask you... What about your H being home are you grateful for?

[T384]

So I asked H if he wanted to talk. He said I have said all I needed to say. Which was in a text that said hes not the man for me and that I can take care of all the house stuff like the water pipes etc since I have to take care of everything. I'm guessing this came from me offering to pay for him missing work. I'm not sure. I went back and forth on offering because I didn't want to come off like I was being controlling or trying to make him feel inadequate I just wanted him to know I wanted him to come and if it was just about money then I didn't want him to miss out on coming over that and since I have the ability to make extra to cover it I dont mind at all. No scorecards here.

So I ended up coming to my room. I guess he's sleeping on the couch. I can't help but think we are doomed to fail. Am I perfect? Absolutely not. Do I still have work to do .. Of course. But how can someone be so strong for 2 months and turn to this. I'm just so upset and feel like I made a mistake but I don't even know what mistake I made.

I know it is his choice to go. It's just I feel like he made every vacation with Ow happen no problem and now when it comes to us it's an excuse a week before when this has been planned for more than a month.

I am grateful for my H being home because I love him, I love spending time with him; I love that I have someone to help me with the every day life stuff, I love that we can have fun no matter what we're doing (well almost everything)

[Maybell]

When he texted that to you did you tell him what you're grateful for about him as a validation?

Does he see IC? Have a history of depression? Do you guys talk about your R?

I so want this to work for your family. Your list sounds loving and it would be sad to lose that.

[woundedfool]

Side note...

You need to totally let go of the historical vacations with 19girl.

Those have nothing to do with your current R now. Other then, with the debt he accumulated going on those, he is having to pay the piper now. I told you once before, he was living a college fantasy/no responsibility life they do not have a correlation to where he is now.

As far as working on the holidays, I don't think it is a stretch to find out if his office/company/job is open, right? While I am not suggesting anything covert or snooping... a simple call to get their holiday hours would be reasonable.

I don't know how long term you have worked at places... but he is less then 6 months there, low man on the totem pole/newer employees are typically the ones working the crap hours during the holidays. So for me the statement is entirely plausible.

Finally, in the spirit of finances, and all the other issues surrounding this trip. Why not just postpone?

[Maybell]

Woundedfool, can you weigh in...?

T shows up here every time she has a hill she's thinking of dying on, and we here never hear about the good times. It raises the question for me of how committed SHE is to the marriage now. I get it, it's reasonable... But maybe addressing that would help her cope with all these bumps with less urgency?

[T384]

Wounded -

The shop is closed. He is choosing to work to be paid so he will get a full weeks paycheck. So it is his choice to miss the vacation. Which is fine if it would have been his choice in the beginning vs planning it up until a week before.

Maybell - I do come here when I have problems that I need help with responding to. I've tried to give others advice and not focus on my thread all the time to consume others with my happiness. I have posted good things and there have been a lot of minor things I dont post. But the things I do are things I either A haven't dealt with because I haven't been in this situation before or B issues that we have had before prior to BD that I'm trying to do my part in resolving differently.

As far as my H to answer your question from last night. I'm pretty sure he was depressed around the time of BD but I didn't see it at the time or maybe chose not to see it. He does not see IC.

I will post more later. I was just trying to update real quick while im waiting in line to pick up S from school.

[Maybell]

Hey, I hope you didn't read that as a 2x4!!!! You have been very supportive and extremely helpful. I'm not in your situation so I'm not claiming wisdom-- I proposed the thought to Wounded because his perspective seems reliable and I wasn't sure if mine is. It was just a thought because he moved home so fast, before you guys had much chance to rebuild. Also his text to you was basically the same complaints he made before so he hasn't solved things on his end and should probably see an IC.

So sorry that didn't sit right with you -- wasn't intended as a slam at all.

[woundedfool]

Woundedfool, can you weigh in...?

T shows up here every time she has a hill she's thinking of dying on, and we here never hear about the good times. It raises the question for me of how committed SHE is to the marriage now. I get it, it's reasonable... But maybe addressing that would help her cope with all these bumps with less urgency?

I think that it is a fair observation, while it is natural in our situations to search here for solutions to problems (or hiccups); it would be better to see the issue before it is a problem.

I hope this doesn't come off as condescending TO324 or a dig... but it is true, you do seem a bit on auto-pilot. I said this a while ago: You were the only one putting in work for the M, your not done working, its just you now have a partner to help you with the work.

I have tried to encourage others (and you) to re-read DR and DB over and over again. To get each part engrained into your memory, and be able to see parts that have evolved, and with that evolution, look at them through a different perspective.

Its kind of like working out or weight loss, you start to achieve part of your goal, and then you rest on your laurels, and pretty soon you are back into old habits. Stay on track, keep focused. There is still lots of work to put in.

But YES, TO324 you have not shared much of (now that I think about it, if any of) your successes. So in the spirit of Maybell's post/question:

TO324, tell us some of the good parts (don't spare the smallest accomplishment) and don't worry about the feeling of rubbing others noses in it. Sometimes its good amongst friends to create a little jealous envy:

[T384]

So how exactly does one work on the when it seems I'm back to where I started with an uninterested partner? The weekly date nights are no longer planned by him, he is not nearly as affectionate as he was and I pointed this all out in October and I've continued to see it spiral as time has progressed

I am committed to my M but I need someone to be in this M with me. I need to let go of his at with OW but it's hard when someone isn't trying like he was. Because I know he is capable of the behavior and actions that I need from him to help me move forward.

I hate to sound like negative nancy but it's just the situation I find myself in. I'm trying to fix things on my end which is why I come here for advice

I've read DR multiple times and as recent as 2 weeks ago trying to figure out where I'm going wrong that his behavior changed. But he hasn't done the real work. Despite me not mentioning a peep about what he makes he still sees me as that person prior to BD. That all I care about is money. I've come to realize I can't change his perception about me because that is his reality. I have made a conscious effort since August to not bring up how much he makes/doesn't mske and the fact that I actually pay more than he does. We haven't discussed it because I don't want to be viewed as that person but last night it was made clear that he still views me that way. It's very hurtful because I have tried to change. Especially in regards to that. Where all this leaves me I really don't know. I know he has some major work to do to be in this R too and I don't want to be doing this alone

[Mozza]

There's an entire section in DR about why you might not see changes yet. I don't have it with me, but look around page 180 plus or minus 20 pages. It's about seeing the small signs, adapting your strategy, etc. I'm not surprised he still thinks of you as interested in money, since it's only been three months. Make sure too that you really reduce your focus on money, not just in your communications with him.

My W left in September and practically lives with her OM. They appear to be in love. I meet my W once a month and exchange small talk by email 4-5 times a week. Yet, here I am, DBing in hope of a R. Look at the success stories at the top of my thread. Successful people have gone through much worse. Be patient. Adapt. Take courage.

[Maybell]

There is a book Labug recommended to me frequently that I picked up and started a couple of weeks ago. It's on one of the reading lists in MLC (I think) and is very helpful. I don't want to mention it by name because I don't want to go back on moderation but it talks about fear in women and shame in men. It has really helped me understand things more clearly and may give you some helpful tools as well.

I can hear how frustrated you are and I feel for you. It's like someone who needs to hang a picture with a nail and a screwdriver.

I think there's a lot of hope for you guys. You just both need better tools. And he maybe needs more time. After all, he said he came back because of his own doubts, right, not because of your changes? So maybe he doesn't yet believe in your changes?

I'll keep you in my prayers, T.

[woundedfool]

So how exactly does one work on the when it seems I'm back to where I started with an uninterested partner?

Sounds like mind reading creeping back.

The weekly date nights are no longer planned by him, he is not nearly as affectionate as he was and I pointed this all out in October and I've continued to see it spiral as time has progressed

Ok, tell us how you "pointed it out"?

it's hard when someone isn't trying like he was. Because I know he is capable of the behavior and actions that I need from him to help me move forward.

So how have you changed toward him? (think of in the spirit of rewarding good behaviors)

I've read DR multiple times and as recent as 2 weeks ago

OK, quiz time... Grab you notes from DR, and tell me what you have listed as your 2 or 3 "What you Want"(s).

[sandi2]

I have gotten behind a little in your stitch, so this is simply a guess. You and your H handle things differently (as most couples do) and in his eyes you probably seem very efficient at every thing, even having repairs fixed around the house....whereas he may be lacking. He has good intentions, but....

I think he probably does feel inadequate compared to you. Whether you say or do things to affect those feelings....or if he brings it on himself, IDK. Speaking as a former WAS, the main ingredient in an A is the ego food that is served. He was with a much younger girl, so it stands to reason his experience in almost every thing would seem pretty good to her. She probably smeared on the admiration goo-goo talk and made him feel like some kind of god. (Remember, I'm speaking from my own experiences here).

He got his eyes open and realized he wanted his family back. Yes, he tried really hard for a while. I think for a lot of men their target is winning the prize (so to speak). I think it must be part of their nature. They are natural hunters who pursue their prey, whether animal or women. Once they catch whatever they are chasing, they relax. The hunt is over and they won the prize.

Just think about every couple you know. After the honeymoon stage, things begin to settle down and the man focuses on his duties of providing for his family. That is the number one thing for him. That is how he shows his love. To men, that is being a good husband! If he feels he is outdone by his W, I suppose that could affect his ego, IDK. Now days, it certainly takes both spouses working in most families.

Yes, I'm sure it is extremely difficult for you. But sweetheart, I wonder if you are unconsciously expecting him to continue to "prove" himself to be worthy? I mean, he messed up really, really bad! He caused major hurt. You know in your heart that you still have some resentment there.

In reading many threads of LBS, we see them working on their changes. I often tell them not to expect to see big changes in their WAS, nor all at once. The WAS is not focused on "changing". The reason the LBS is, was probably b/c they were trying to get the WAS back. The WAS isn't really interested in changing, to be blunt. However, if and when they go back into the M, they usually realize that change is necessary if they have intend having a good MR. And that is another reason why it is so important that the WAS reconciles "all the way".

Those issues have to get worked out, or else you will find yourself right back where you started. That's why I believe it is important to have a professional to help the couple with those issues.

My H simply refused to go with me to a counselor. In fact, I could see very little effort he put forth in the M. He told me up front he expected to see 100% effort in me. I didn't have the emotional energy or desire to give 1 %. But my stitch was a little different from yours. My point, however, is that I felt he was sitting back and watching (expecting) me to prove myself, and that I owed it to him. That gets heavy carrying around all the time.

I don't think you are sitting back. That's just not you. But I do wonder if he is perceiving some expectations from you. I know it is very discouraging when you have seen what he can do, and then stops. He may be feeling some resentment and thinks he always be on a "trial basis", since he scr@wed up. He may be asking himself why keep busting his butt if he can't measure up, but like I said, this is all speculation from a WAS viewpoint.

As always, I think you are pretty amazing and doing a good job. I think you guys will make it, but the next couple of years will be tough. Btw, the longer he goes sleeping on the couch, the worse it will get. So, swallow some pride and go ask him to please come back to bed with you. Don't do like I did. These men let "rejection" (and not just in sex) do terrible things to them. Let him know you want him, appreciate, and admire him. It does a lot to soothe their ego and gives them a lot of encouragement/energy.

((hugs))

[T384]

Thank you all for the words of encouragement and sorry for the late response. We are just getting back from vacation... And we all, H included, had a wonderful time.

Mozza, Maybell and Wounded - thank you for your words. So to touch on what I want...
I want a loving R with my H where we both feel our feelings reciprocated by the other

Sandi - you are so wise. Your post resonates so much with me ... Do you know
Me in real life? Lol

I am a very strong independent person --- I know difficult to think that based on my posts during our S. But I take charge and get things done. I so badly want H to be the one that takes charge but I've accepted that's not always going to be him. I have bowed down to allow him
To be the man but In the same capacity if things don't get taken care of I see that it gets resolved. My mom pointed this out as well that my H probably felt inferior to me; that he didn't really feel as though I needed him. TBH I don't need him, I want him in my life but those 6 months showed me I can do it on my own. That in itself was empowering. I know the 19 yo stroked his ego. Everything was great to her whereas I'm more mature and we have the daily responsibilities of life and we aren't in La La land.

My H shows his love for me by taking care of things for me. This may sound silly. But my work car always has a full tank of gas even if it means him filling it up late at night if I work the next morning. He built me a convertible fun car for the beach last year for the boys and I. I know this is how he shows me he loves me. I guess it's just hard when. He's shown he can do/be/show more than he is doing right now. I know it's the chase- and now he's comfortable. But I'm thinking in the back of my mind --- is he regretting his decision? Is he talking to her again? Is he unhappy? Is he going to leave again? I really don't bring this up with him and I'm not sure it's appropriate to bring up in counseling because it's something I need to work on BUT his behavior can really fuel the uncertainties I feel.

I do have a lot of resentment I'm dealing with internally. How could he do what he did? Why did I let him off so easily? Why didn't I make him work harder? Did he really learn 'his lesson'? I feel like I let him step out on our M put us through hell and when he was over 'it' came strolling back in. I don't know how to move past this all besides time. But truth be told I love my H so incredibly much that. I am scared. I don't wantto lose him and I don't want to go through this again.

So in regards to vacation. I ended up working a ton of Ot last week and I paid for the days H would miss from work. I actually just made arrangements with his boss to pay for the days he would miss this way it wasn't a huge thing. I made sure to discuss this with H so he didn't think I was babying him or overstepping myself. He was really appreciative and I know if the roles were reversed he would have done so for me. We ended up talking everything out and moved forward from the issue. He apologized about the money comment and said it was in a moment of anger and that it was unfair because money hasn't been mentioned by me in regards to his job.

So we ended up driving to the mountains and had a great time with my family. We had a few too many by the fire outside and shared a lot of laughs and made some great memories. We ended up taking the boys to a local christmas tree lot and walked what seemed like miles until they found the perfect tree to cut down and it made it the long drive home on top of the truck lol ... Typical floridians we are

I hope everyone had a wonderful holiday

[Maybell]

It's really great to hear you happy.

[T384]

Thank you Maybell

[Heart14]

TBH I don't need him, I want him in my life but those 6 months showed me I can do it on my own. That in itself was empowering. I know the 19 yo stroked his ego. Everything was great to her whereas I'm more mature and we have the daily responsibilities of life and we aren't in La La land.

T, I'm so glad things are continuing to improve for you. I can really relate to what you are saying. The time my H was in crazy town was awful, but getting through that and finding my own strength was a positive takeaway. In a weird way, his crisis helped me learn a lot about myself too.

But I'm thinking in the back of my mind --- is he regretting his decision? Is he talking to her again? Is he unhappy? Is he going to leave again? I really don't bring this up with him and I'm not sure it's appropriate to bring up in counseling because it's something I need to work on BUT his behavior can really fuel the uncertainties I feel.

Have you gone to any IC? Maybe this is something worth talking to a C about on your own. I definitely struggle with this as well. I try, although I'm out always successful, to ask myself if my thoughts are coming from something in our current interactions or if I'm letting the past cloud the present. Probably 9 times out of 10 it's my pain from the past. My IC has been a great outlet for me if I feel overwhelmed. I talk to H about it some too, but I also feel like it's my own security issue. Certainly asking for reassurances when you need them should be ok though.

I do have a lot of resentment I'm dealing with internally. How could he do what he did? Why did I let him off so easily? Why didn't I make him work harder? Did he really learn 'his lesson'? I feel like I let him step out on our M put us through hell and when he was over 'it' came strolling back in. I don't know how to move past this all besides time. But truth be told I love my H so incredibly much that. I am scared. I don't wantto lose him and I don't want to go through this again.

So much of what you are saying is hitting home for me. I'm not sure there is anything that can calm your fears except time and continued improvement in your M. Repairing the damage is probably going to take a lot of time. Keep doing what works and stay patient. This is still a marathon. Keep up the great work!

[T384]

Thanks Heart

I actually made an appointment for IC for next week with our MC. I need to figure out how to address my fears/resentment towards H. It's something I need to figure out.

It's so good to hear someone that can relate. Being this is typed I can see how my thoughts and feelings get jumbled up and can maybe be read wrong by others. I hate to always sound negative and I guess it's because I come
Here for help with solutions. I'm happy to be in this place with H but it is also such hard work. I need to practice patience!

[Card29]

Thank you for the kind words on my thread, T

[woundedfool]

Any updates?

[T384]

Wounded - I was beginning to think you forgot about me

Not much new to report around here. We've all been super busy with the holidays and work has been slammed. H is actually in the process of potentially accepting a new job. He was offered a job he had when we were in another part of the state a few years ago. The company has grown and is opening up a few more places closer to us. However, the 'closest' one is by my work (about 120 miles roundtrip) which would lead us both to commuting to the same area. He believes it would only be temporary because they are also looking for a place in our area. I'm indifferent. He used to commute and always complained about it but he would be making 75% more than he is making now which would take a big weight off his shoulders (mine too). I've laid low on this decision -- I told him not to feel pressured into either decision and to make what he feels is best for him and our family and we will support him either way. I did say to make sure he really thinks about both decisions pros and cons instead of just jumping at a large pay increase. We're a little spoiled with his current job, small company, makes his own hours, vacations/days off whenever. He would be losing that with a larger company. So anyway we will see

As far as us .. We are doing well. Short of my last meltdown we haven't had any large issues. He's much better at communicating things with me. I personally think that what has saved us is separate bank accounts and splitting the bills. We used to argue a lot over money and his lack of paying attention to what was due when and how much money we had. So now that he is responsible for his own money I don't have to feel like a mother nagging him about bills. He knows whats due when.

I'm really looking forward to 2015. We are so ready to have all these house projects and some vehicles sold so that we can actually enjoy our days off and do things vs always have a large project to be on top of.


My IC tells me for every negative there should be 5 positives... So I'm trying to wrap my head around this and how I can accomplish that. He suggests more Mc sessions vs IC. He believes H needs to see that just because I don't bring up the past that it doesn't mean I don't struggle with it. And that his actions need to be consistent to prove to me that there is a change in him. I fear my H got off too easy and what is to stop him from this happening again in the future. So that's really a goal for me in MC to figure out how to keep things going in the right direction. I know nobody can predict the future but I certainly do not want to go through this again.

Anyway, we had our annual Christmas photos over the weekend ... It's still strange to me. I feel like those 6 months were a bad dream. It's almost scary how easily things have come back together. everyone that is around us commends us (well me) of how strong I am to just move forward as I have (if they only knew). It still stings to hear people say things like I can't believe it after all he did and how could you forgive him, then my mind starts running into all the things that happened... But then I make a conscious effort to stop those thoughts and remind whomever it is that its a choice we both made and we are a work in progress, the people that love us want us to be happy and those who do not aren't all that important then anyway. When. People ask what's to stop him from doing this again... I try not to go there but simply say I wouldnt know if I didn't try. And I just can't not give it my best shot. I know these are the friends that worry about me because they were there through my dark days during our S and I believe their thoughts come with the best intentions so I try not to feed into it.


Well I'm rambling as always and it's hard to make sense on my phone entirely. I hope everyone is well. I still try and keep up with those 'I know' stories even if I don't comment much. I hope everyone has a happy holiday and know that I am thankful for all of you

[woundedfool]

I've laid low on this decision -- I told him not to feel pressured into either decision and to make what he feels is best for him and our family and we will support him either way.

I think that was a perfect answer, I would not have answered it any different.

My IC tells me for every negative there should be 5 positives...

I like this as a thought, and maybe its why I am not a counselor.... but I would be careful not to get too hung up on the actual ratio, for me 2:1 would be a great direction.

I fear my H got off too easy and what is to stop him from this happening again in the future.

*please note* I am NOT dismissing your feelings, they are quite warranted, and understandable. But I want you to take a quick perspective from him (regarding the "got off too easy"):

You can carry that view, but... what if the view is: I had a really great marriage and great wife, a great family, and I absolutely squandered it away (much like someone hitting the lottery going into bankruptcy). I need to work very hard every day because my angel of a spouse has given me a second chance.

It still stings to hear people say things like I can't believe it after all he did and how could you forgive him,

A very simple (and try not to be confrontational about it) answer is: Well getting a divorce is easy... any moron with $3000.00 can do it. Love, forgiveness and WORK are priceless.

People ask what's to stop him from doing this again...

If you feel like engaging: "Well, whats to stop ME from doing it"?

I hope everyone has a happy holiday and know that I am thankful for all of you

Happy Hanukkah, Merry Christmas, Joyous Kwanzaa, Festive Festivus!

[T384]

Thanks wounded-

Yes 5:1 can be a little overwhelming. I'm aiming at more positives than negatives for now. I don't know where we are honestly. It seems H is done 'pursuing' me. I knew that full force wouldn't last forever but I didn't think it would do a 180. He seems back to his 'old self'. Comments about just being stressed at work. I would swear I was in a time warp. I feel I have done a lot to change my reactions and approaches to things we I deal with wrong in the past. But I'm still here with pretty much the same person. I feel so defeated. I feel like a WAW. I'm just having a bad day but I do feel down.

I want the man that showed me affection and could have a conversation more than just yes. I had attributed the last couple weeks to holiday and work stress but even on vacation it's more of the same. Trying to DB myself out of this one. I told H he seems annoyed with me at times and that he doesn't want to seem to carry on a conversation. He said he doesn't believe that. So I'll agree to disagree at this point. Come on MC

Ugh I am such a work in progress. This may sound selfish but since I feel like I can be honest here ... He should be busting his ass for this R! I'm trying to do my work of telling him my feelings and how I feel that I'm not a priority to him lately. I am trying to experiment with what works and I have not been very fruitful lately.

Anyway ... Thanks to whomever is listening. Happy New Year to everyone!

[Maybell]

T, I'm listening, but I don't know what to say. So I'll just send you a hug and say one way or another 2015 will be your year.

[T384]

Thanks Maybell. I'm hoping 2015 will be a great year for everyone here! I follow your sitch I just don't feel like a vet with much insight

Any advice is welcomed as always for me

D abatement is coming up the end of January. I will have to make my decision. My answer without the cool off before you answer period would be I am leaning towards D. It's not what I want but I want to be with someone that shows he loves me not just because he wanted me back

[Ile Guy]

T... End of jan is a long way off...As a guy, Maybe he is waiting to see if you fall into your old self again... encourage him to go out and reconnect... NO SEX!!! that will only confuse the issue. and no pressures. Just hang out and create an environment that he wants to be around. You have 4 weeks... No more melt downs.. try to reconnect and let him take notice that you are changing the environment. He knows you love him.... don't be needy... make those 180's and keep up the PMA. remember, there will be setbacks... but he already chose you once and there is even less reasons now that he wont again!!! just reconnect and tackle the issues afterwards....

Good luck.. we're in your corner on this.

Prayers out to you and for him..

[Train]

Hey, T!!!

Really, super dumb question down below, but I haven't seen you spell it out, so I'll ask:

Have you and your H gone on a date lately? Just the two of you? (It can be your idea, too, even though I know you wish he'd take the initiative and you likely feel he owes that to you. And fwiw, I AGREE.) But here's my BIGGER question: On one of these dates, have you relaxed and actually ASKED for what you want and need from him right now?

I'm gonna ramble here ...

We are expected to meet our partner's needs. But sometimes, we're just shooting in the dark at what those needs truly are. A lot of times, we even show love to our spouses in the way WE would best receive love. And we do that sometimes at our own demise. Love is felt and experienced differently for different people, and especially, research (and experience) suggests, between the sexes. I also feel there's a big "hole" that exists between what we read for busting a divorce and what we need to piece a M back together and to sustain love in a relationship - and especially one that has been ripped apart at one point by adultery. For instance, while trying to bust our divorces - or bust our spouses' affairs - we are *supposed* to act independent and carefree. But when Piecing begins, to act independent and carefree is actually careless ... and even detrimental. All a sudden, we need to be a team. And we need to show a little vulnerability. (At the same time, you should ALWAYS remember that you are okay alone. That is a GOOD thing for you to know. You are the cake. He is the frosting.)

But I digress ...

I think you're spot-on with a lot of things. You always have been. And I'll agree with many others that your H may be watching *you* and your patterns ... and maybe he DOES feel inferior to you. And that's not cool in a man's world. But at least based on what you're saying, you ARE trying to love and admire him ... and to forgive him. And - man! - do I KNOW how difficult that is!!

And *of course* you feel this is all unfair! (It IS.) You're the one who was cheated on! You're the one who was abandoned by the man who swore he would love, honor, cherish and protect you FOREVER! And he did the complete OPPOSITE. Honey, it's hard telling how long that wound will take to heal. Certainly not in 6 months, though. Have patience with yourself.

But here's the thing: While it's going to take time, it's also going to take TWO of you stepping up to the plate at the same time. And, T, I'll just be real: unfortunately, some people just don't step up to bat no matter *what* those of us wanting our M to work do. But you have to at least tell your H - specifically - what you need and want from him. *If* he's going to fail, you both need to VERBALLY set the parameters *now* of what "failure" looks like ... if that makes sense.

If you've done that? Then good for you. And I think it's entirely unfair and unacceptable that he isn't at least trying to be *consistent* in providing it to you. Especially this soon out of the gate. In other words, I can feel your frustration in very real ways if you've told him what you need to help you through this and he is outright not providing that to you consistently. And if that's the case, I'm so sorry you're going through that. It isn't fair.

It sounds like you're trying really hard and you continue to work on your side of the street; that's all anyone can ask of you. But do I think that at this stage your H should be stepping up and giving you the things you've told him will help you move past this nightmare? Um, yes. ABSOLUTELY. IMO, as long as you are working to be the W he needs, he should be working TWICE as hard to reassure YOU that he's faithful and committed to your R.

Let me be clear: You both need to be prepared to wake up every day, for the rest of your lives, deliberately choosing to meet each others' needs. (That's where the "work" comes in.) But if your H is having a hard time doing it now? Okay, have patience with him, absolutely. But not at your own demise. If he were still a WAS, then I'd say: Hang in there until you're done. But to come back and say he wants to work on your M ... and then actively avoid doing the very things you've told him you'd need him to do to help you work through this ... is just careless.

So back to my question: Have you gone out with him lately? STRIKE the conversations of money or kids. Schedule date-nights that are specifically free of conversations about affairs, jobs, kids or money. (Scary, eh? Because if you're anything like me, you're thinking: "Okay, Train. Then WHAT will we talk about?!?" It's a challenge, believe me. But TRY it!) This is about you two. Finding your spark again. Focusing on the two people who CREATED a family. (You had to love each other before you created your kids; you HAD to have something you talked about before kids and finances came into play ...)

And - more importantly - have you told him what you NEED? Have you asked for that, point-blank?

If you haven't, it's far past time, sweetie.

[T384]

Train, I am so happy to hear from you

Thank you so much for taking the time to post. I am on my phone as always and will try to touch on all the great questions you pose

So A : date night. No we have not. Funny you say that. I recently brought up to H. You haven't planned a date night for us recently (in a joking tone but not really joking) he said he knows we are both busy with work and the holidays and he was waiting for those to pass. I told him as our MC told us I thought it was important for us to have date nights doing anything as long as it involved just the two of us. He really went out of his way for the first few months. We even took weekends away. We haven't had one since the beginning of November, unless you count wrapping presents lol

I think where we are really hurting is MC. We haven't been together in awhile. He is not at fault for that it is 90% on me ... He told me he will go whenever I can go that I just need to make the appt based on my schedule and he will be there. So I really need to change that and make an appt for us to start going regularly together

So as far as telling H what I need. I am great at telling him what bothers me but not great at offering a solution always. I can tell him how he makes me feel but not how he can change it ... For example as I wrote before I told him I felt I annoy him. He gives me yes no ok short answers. He lacks physical touch besides sex. I mean I get a kiss before and after work but no physical touch when we are out and about like he was for the first few months. I'm not saying I'm into full PDA because I am not but I do like when he holds my hand for no reason, wraps his arms around me, or just touches me. I haven't said too much on that subject either.

Piecing for me has been so much harder for me. Like
You said you have to go from being independent to a team. And not only a team but rebuilding something that was broken especially with trust issues and a precious A. I fear I let H back in too easily. Financially we really couldn't afford to sustain two households (yes I'm making excuses) but he had already ran himself into so much debt. Again I know it's his problem but our MC was fully supportive of him moving back in as we discussed it a lot. However our R was seamless. My family welcomed him with open arms. He never really struggled much so I dont know if he appreciates our M or me as much as he would had he had to work harder. Oh well ... Coulda woulda shoulda right


Him feeling inferior to me has always been an issue. I am very independent and strong willed. It may not have sounded that way during my posts in our S but I really am! I am take charge and H is more laid back. I now make more money than him. I think that is a big issue too. Luckily financial arguments havenf been an issue but I am paying much more of the bills than he is due to his pay cut and accumulated debt. Then I get to thinking... Seriously! I'm paying more for you to live here so you can pay off your debt from when
You were with OW! Totally unfair ... But it's the choice I made.

So I need to be clear about what I NEED not just what bothers me. I need you to do XYZ not ABC bothers me.

And really what on earth do we talk about?!? I sat there wondering that tonight. What do people talk about that don't have children and responsibilities! I haven't brought up the A/D/S since my last meltdown in the beginning of October. We talk a lot about the boys and our house projects and work.

So anyway thank you Train ... I am sorry this is probably all jumbled as usually. I can't keep a clear concise thought to save my life. I hope all is well in your neck of the woods and with your daughter

[jim0987]

Hi, I was just catching up on your thread and in your last post there were a couple of things that i wanted to offer my view on but feel free to disregard as your clearly doing a good job.

So as far as telling H what I need. I am great at telling him what bothers me but not great at offering a solution always.

I always took this as criticism and immediately got defensive, how its not my fault or that I dont need to do things. Or I would do what i thought was right rather than asking what was needed. For one of the big issues in my relationship if my wife had said 'I need you to sit with me and hold me' instead of 'You always just abandon me' I would have known different and been much more likely to correct my behaviour

I do like when he holds my hand for no reason, wraps his arms around me, or just touches me. I haven't said too much on that subject either.

Have you thought about initiating more of this, show him what you want rather than wait to see if he will give it freely - it might be he is uncertain to approach because of all the other issues. it might be he feels awkward and anxious about this stuff.

Seriously! I'm paying more for you to live here so you can pay off your debt from when You were with OW! Totally unfair

I would just say be careful of this. it might be just a comment but thoughts like this can lodge and turn into resentment which isnt good for anyone. it may be true but its in the past, his debt is part of him now (regardless of how he built it up) and if you are to stay together its something you need to tackle together

So I need to be clear about what I NEED not just what bothers me. I need you to do XYZ not ABC bothers me.

This ^^^^^^

[Train]

Yes, yes and yes.

Here's what I've learned through reading (and experience): Men are natural "fixers." My H has been *astounded* when I've told him that a lot of times, when I vented to him about the kids, I WAS NOT asking him to help or fix it. When we complain, most men will naturally feel beat-up on. They feel we're taking it out on them. They feel we're telling them we're unhappy ... and that they need to FIX it! (This came as a shock to ME, as a woman. I had read about it but never thought my H felt that way. So I asked him about it one day. Surprise of all surprises: he did/does feel that way!)

And when we get quiet and catty about things? That's even worse. They KNOW something is wrong. But they feel we are expecting them to mind-read. They have NO idea what's wrong ... or what they need to fix. And truth be told: We ARE expecting them to mind-read. Which isn't fair.

Bottom line: based on what I've read and lived and experienced, men and women communicate COMPLETELY differently. A lot of times, we as women expect men to read our minds. And when they *don't* read our minds, or do for us what we want/need them to do (when we've never taken time to tell them what we want/need), we pout and/or give them the silent-treatment and/or get huffy and puffy. We take it personally. Men, meanwhile, WANT to fix things. But a lot literally don't know how to please their female partner/spouse. They actually *appreciate* being told what it is that will make us happy.

So I need to be clear about what I NEED not just what bothers me. I need you to do XYZ not ABC bothers me.

Ahhhhhh .... yeah. Another thing I'm guilty of: not telling H what it is that I want/need until I'm already angry about him not meeting that particular need. And I don't give it enough time to settle down to make my delivery less frustrated. Sometimes, we don't KNOW what we want/need until after an event has happened that makes it clear to us. That's okay, too. But we should commit to ourselves that we will not approach our spouses - and deliver that want/need - until we've settled down a little and can deliver it in a calm, rational way. (I'm still working on this. )

So, yes, I'd absolutely say that your first step is to make a list of what you need/want - your non-negotiables (there's that word again) - from your H to help you get through this nightmare. Deliver it in a loving, gentle way, acting as if he absolutely wants to (and WILL) meet those needs. And give the fella a chance.

(As far as me? We're doing a lot better. I've absolutely bypassed the "acceptance" stage with my sweet D18 and am actively supporting her and making outfits/blankets/bows ... because IT'S A GIRL!!!!! ... and growing excited for May! We're halfway there! Thank you for asking, sweet lady! xoxo)

[T384]

Gosh Train. You hit the nail on the head with everything I have done, been doing and have continued to do with H in regards go not the right way to communicate. Really and truly what I need from his is pretty simple. I just want to feel important and like I matter. I want him to go back to the man he was for the last few months that seems to have disappeared these last few weeks. I know he is stressed about work. He tends to coil up in a corner when he's stressed ... This is how we got to BD and OW before because he was stressed and I was quiet and short about his lack of attention and when I thought we were happy it only took a couple weeks for our world to be turned upside down

I just get very anxious that he's thinking about OW or just not going to come home again because last time I had no warning (heIl we slept together the day before!). So now when I see him on his phone texting it stresses me out and my tension rises which probably changes how I communicate with him. I guess I just feel like we are in a similar situation as him being stressed and now he's not acting towards me the way he is. When I bring up to him that he seems distant and isn't very affectionate towards me his answer his he's stressed. Just not sure how to handle that. I did tell him I need him to be more affectionate to me and I need him to show me im important to him like he used to. He just said okay and I left it at that.

And a girl!! Yay congrats!!! I always have secretly been jealous of all the beautiful little girls clothing when I shop! Best wishes to you and your family in 2015. Thanks again for guiding me through this maze.

Jim - thanks for the perspective. I appreciate it. I can see where I tell H i don't like when he does things rather than approaching it another way and it can seem accusatory.

[JCred]

TO324...

Looks like you stopped doing what worked to bring him back.

Some men need a challenge.. or they get bored..

I remember you were going out and having a good time and even wondered if you wanted him back..... seems like that's when he suddenly started to pursue you.... when you were pulled back and seemed happy doing it is when he came back toward you... or have you forgot that important part?

I would go back to that if I were you...
Stop any and all relationship talks.. Go into your own "little world".. Start doing things without him......

Text others while he is around......

Less talk.. own little world.. out having fun. enjoying life.....

Seems to me that is what worked before....
Sometimes the way to get a man's attention is to let him wonder what YOU are thinking and up to.....

Just sayin..

[woundedfool]

I just want to feel important and like I matter.

I want him to go back to the man he was for the last few months that seems to have disappeared these last few weeks.

I know he is stressed about work.

He tends to coil up in a corner when he's stressed ... This is how we got to BD and OW before because he was stressed and I was quiet and short about his lack of attention and when I thought we were happy it only took a couple weeks for our world to be turned upside down

I just get very anxious that he's thinking about OW or just not going to come home again because last time I had no warning (heIl we slept together the day before!).

So now when I see him on his phone texting it stresses me out and my tension rises which probably changes how I communicate with him.

I guess I just feel like we are in a similar situation as him being stressed and now he's not acting towards me the way he is.

When I bring up to him that he seems distant and isn't very affectionate towards me his answer his he's stressed. Just not sure how to handle that. I did tell him I need him to be more affectionate to me and I need him to show me im important to him like he used to.

I think you should address each of these with the MC.

Don't talk in the terms of what had happened (other then the "stressed" comment). Talk about future behaviors and goals. I say that in the context: some worry about counseling becomeing a referee's judgement. Share your concerns, and hopefully he/she can give you both some tools to help.

[T384]

Any suggestion on how to deal with this until we get to MC? I have told him like I posted i needed him to be more affectionate. So far I havent seen a change

[woundedfool]

Any suggestion on how to deal with this until we get to MC? I have told him like I posted i needed him to be more affectionate. So far I havent seen a change

Sure. If it was me:

1. Pick a good time to talk about this (NOT during a bowl game, not while he is under the hood of the car, not when he is on his way out the door).

2. Don't talk about the past (could have should have would have); Talk future: "I would like you to be more affectionate" And give examples of what you would like (I would like you to kiss me good night, I would like you to sit next to me on the couch, I would like you to initiate ML)

3. REWARD HIS GOOD BEHAVIORS! Acknowledge his affection: "hey H, I liked it when you kissed me and bought me those flowers, it made me feel loved/wanted/desired/etc.", then follow it up with a(n) unsolicited ______ (feel free to fill in the blank with anything "adult" you want).

4. Follow up: if there are good behaviors/changes, mention that with praise in MC the next time you are there.

[Train]

Can you plan an "emergency" date night, T0? Something this weekend? Something RELAXING and fun?

[Train]

The reason I'm asking is because I think a conversation that needs to be taken so seriously needs to REALLY be taken seriously, with little to no distractions.

I've noticed we can't really "endorse" - or even mention - other books here anymore. That's sad, because several align with most of the DB principles but focus more on the piecing stage (after busting the divorce). HNHN, which I've probably mentioned to you before, focuses on men's needs and women's needs. And how to affair-proof a marriage ... instead of "only" how to work on ourselves - and our Ms - when they're on the brink. In other words, it's more *proactive* about how to keep the M from hitting the brink in the first place. It's a GREAT accompaniment book to DB/DR for the piecing stage.

Anyway, point is: your best bet to get your H to meet your needs is to meet HIS. The problem is: The top two needs of most men is sex and admiration/adoration. Women - understandably - have a VERY hard time meeting those needs if their male spouses aren't meeting OUR top-two needs: affection and intimate conversation. Because we look at sex as an emotional experience, whereas most men literally need it *physically*. For that reason, it's preferable if the man leads the charge on meeting his W's needs of affection and intimate conversation. Because that makes her WANT to meet his needs of sex, adoration and admiration.

Does that make sense?

That's the talk you need to have with your H, IMO.

And then hope he's really still into piecing like you are.

If not? Then you're back to asking yourself if this is the man you want to be with.

Give him some wiggle-room, sure. But because he cheated, he MUST be willing to give you what you need to overcome this and create a more rock-solid M. If he isn't willing? Your M is still in trouble. It's hard enough to try to "piece" when the formerly-cheating spouse is going above and beyond to meet the X-LBS's needs. I speak from experience.

Thinking of you. And hoping you can really level with your H on this issue. Soon. You deserve it, sweetie.

[T384]

We really don't have any time for a date night until next weekend... So that will have to do for now.

I really just don't know what to say or how to approach it. I am scared that maybe he is second guessing his choice to be in this M. He was so gung go on doing every and anything he needed to do to make thing right with me. I don't know if it was too much too soon and he's second guessing himself. A big part of it is financial stress. That. I know for a fact. When I asked him what his new years resolution was the only thing he said was to get himself back together financially and get this new job.

I know I can/will be fine without him but that's not what I want. however I want to be in a M where I know and feel that my H loves and appreciates me. Here's to hoping this is a bump in the road. I really need to look into some other books because I'm struggling. On one hand I want to be the fixer and make everything better. On the other hand I feel like why am I making the effort, he left, he cheated what am I doing? Enabling him further? That I will try even harder? I'm not desperate.

I just want to know what happened? What happened to stop the guy he was the last few months to now. they are so opposite each other it's insane.

Part of me feels like he's depressed. He doesn't even want to talk much. He is full of yes, Ya, and okays. It's like dragging a conversation out of him. It makes me feel so unattractive and unwanted. This was the person that couldn't wait to talk to me and made me feel great. I guess maybe It seems worse because it's been taken away and I know he's capable of it. This is going to be a LONG week because I work this whole week and we won't be able to attend MC til the following week. I don't even know how to act or what to say. I feel like I'm back to stage 1 of all of this.

Thank you

[Train]

Aw, sweetie. I'm so sorry you're feeling this way. I FEEL you. Big time. I really do. (P.S. I just saw woundedfool's response, and I agree with him; that's all great advice.)

I can only speak from my own experience, T0, but during the times when I start feeling unattractive and unwanted during piecing, I - yes - communicate my needs to my H. But I also take a page from the DB playbook and remember that I am in charge of my own feelings. In other words, do something for you to make yourself feel better. Clearly, you know the boundaries around that; it's not exactly like your GALing in your DB days. But it's sort of the same. Do something to help your own outlook on things. Communicate with H as soon as you can. And when you communicate with him, make sure you're remaining positive and CONFIDENT. "Act as if" he's totally going to be willing to give you what you say you need.

Stay positive, girl. Fake it if you have to until you can sit down with H with no distractions.

I'm thankful you are also being empathetic to some of his feelings with work and bills, too. That's good. But I know he can handle work AND working on his M. I KNOW he can.

[sandi2]

I just want to know what happened? What happened to stop the guy he was the last few months to now. they are so opposite each other it's insane.

Based on the posts here on the board, it seems that most men are driven to win the female. Before M he pursues the woman, and after a breakup he pursues her. However, right after M his focus goes from her onto other things, and when he wins her back after a breakup he does the same pattern. We women are troubled and hurt b/c he changes once he has us. Truth be known, I think we do too.

IMHO, your H wanted to by-pass the uncomfortable work that needed to be done, and he just wanted to settle back into the family again. And I agree that it all was too fast.

I believe it is extremely important to get professional guidance when piecing the M back together. Even if he feels uncomfortable, he should be willing to do it for the sake of the M....and to help you. How much longer till MC app't?

Do you think he may be placing too much pressure or expectation on himself? Would he be open and tell you if he was?

[T384]

I completely missed your post wounded - I think that is the way to approach it so he doesn't feel 'beat' up

Train- I am going to do something for myself. When H first wanted to R. I kept my GAL in full swing. Even having him at the house to watch the boys while I went out to undisclosed places and events. I'm getting back to my diet seeing as I've gained some of the weight I lost back. Thanks for helping me, xoxo


Sandi - he is willing to go to MC. We at least he was. We haven't discussed it in a few weeks but my guess is he is. I think you are very right that he bypassed the uncomfortable part to just be back in our lives. He still has a lot of work to do on himself. I have done a lot while he was gone but he was not doing anything to work on himself.

I don't think he would tell me that specifically. The most I would get is a generalized answer of 'I'm stressed''

We had touched on the pursuing at MC back in October. The C told me I shouldn't be surprised for H to settle down on the pursuing once he wins the prize but that he needs to find the right balance. He also felt H should be doing most of the pursuing, date night planning, Etc for awhile to prove himself to me. I work this coming week and the MC is off on Fridays so unless he can squeeze me in on a work day and I can have someone cover it will have to wait until the following week.

[happy1]

When I bring up to him that he seems distant and isn't very affectionate towards me his answer his he's stressed. Just not sure how to handle that. I did tell him I need him to be more affectionate to me and I need him to show me I'm important to him like he used to.

Just another idea to consider:
How about STOP.
Stop bringing it up and just act as if.

I know, I know you want to sit down and talk it out and move back to where it was, but what if, just for a week, until you get to MC you don't make him address this when he seems to have answered you. I am pretty sure you will not get where you want to go if you sit him down, again. 180?

If you do not have time to have a date night and finances are tight, how about a date home? Like a picnic in bedroom? Call me corny but set up something and he may reward you.

[Train]

I'd be really careful with a prolonged STFU philosophy during piecing.

Communication is arguably THE most vital component of a healthy M. Both partners must be willing, though. This is where the rubber meets the road and really where the XWAS has to step up and show s/he is willing to do the uncomfortable work without making excuses for why s/he can't right now. And the XLBS has to decide if they're seeing/feeling enough to continue the uncomfortable work, too.

Am I saying beat this lack-of-affection issue over his head (or trying the same non-working tactic, expecting different results)? Nope. In fact, wounded and I - as MWD suggests in DR - both advocated trying a fresh, new approach (getting away from the house in a relaxing environment before approaching H, "acting as if" while delivering to him your needs, validating, positive re-enforcements when he does something right, etc.).

I would advocate STFU if you're temporarily mad or frustrated over an issue. But even if those feelings linger for more than 24 hours, I would strongly encourage a spouse - now calm and rational (after the "24-hour rule") - to approach their spouse and say (insert woundedfool's conversation advice here).

The longer you STFU and hang on to resentment about your H's lack of affection and intimate conversation, the more withdrawals he's making from your love bank. He went a long time making withdrawals and no deposits, so homeboy might not be high enough "in the black" to be withdrawing such large chunks right now. That is why, during piecing, STFU (about such a big, lingering issue) is actually dangerous for your M, IMO.

But that's just me rambling ...

Definitely get back in touch with some of those DB methods of checking YOUR attitude at home, T0, even if you have to fake it until you CAN get out of the house with H (whether that's on a date or at MC). The thing is: Going to MC, while obviously helpful, still puts a big mirror in front of you two and your problems. Dates - I would advocate AT LEAST once a week, and it can be as simple as sitting outside together for an hour after the kids are asleep - are times when you can create "no-drama times" for you and H. (My H and I will build a fire in our firepit outside and have a couple beers if we can't "escape." I've helped him work on cars - for the record, my "help" entailed me replenishing his beer and handing him tools . Really anything goes as long as you two are spending some non-stressful time together, just the two of you. We also had to create "affair-free" date nights, when no matter what, we would not bring up the A. Same could be done with finances and/or jobs: agree to spend 1-on-1 time together one night a week when love-buster-topics like finances and jobs are topics NOT to be discussed, no matter what.)

Try to stay light and breezy, just like in the "old days." And definitely do something(s) to make yourself feel better; that will help your PMA at home.

Clearly, you both have big decisions to make - and you two are flirting with a deadline, right? I really, really hope your H steps back up; we KNOW he has it in him. I also know you can rest assured you've done literally everything in your power to make your M work. You've done some heavy-lifting, sister. Pat yourself on the back for me. And then go get a manicure or somethin'. xoxo