Going Down Hill 2

[zed]

Old post http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...574#Post2506574
Last one was about me getting in to the BD swing of things. Going through the pain of a possible unwanted separation. Trying my best to detach while living with W. Went through a couple bad days. Bring me up to the first day of moderation. Dividing assets. Parenting plan. Trying to find out who leaves the house. Neither of us want to leave and have our reasons

[zed]

So first day of moderation. Can't say it went really good. Very emotional draining. Tried my best to be strong but broke down a couple times while talking about kids.

Goal going into moderation was to get 50/50 parenting time with kids. I knew this was going to be tough as wife was dead set the other way. I felt I was strong. But I did crater a bit. Ended up with a 9-5 schedule. On W's 9 days I have 2 days where I can have kids for up to 5 hours. On 5 days W has 1 day where she can take kids for up to 5 hours. I made it clear that this was only trial basis and within a couple months I expect to get 50/50.
House- Could not get decided. We have to go through all assets to see if either one can actually afford to keep the house. W wanted separate time together so we both caved a bit. Decided to buy another house together and would each stay in it. Kids would always stay in marital home. Parents would move from house to house. This would only be temporary until we have decided who gets the marital home. We have another mediation meeting in 2 weeks. We will be starting get all the financial stuff out of the way.

[zed]

I did break the rules and gave it one last try before mediation though. I emailed wife:
Me: I just wanted to make sure that you did want to go through with this and that you believe there is no way that we can work this out. I think you know that I do not want this. I want to work on this together and get back what we had in the beginning and hopefully much more than that. I realize that I have made mistakes and that I am not perfect but who is.

W: Yes unfortunately I am sure. Some of the things you have said (as well as things that I know for a fact you are going to say in this process) make me confident you still aren't taking ownership for your portion of what went wrong in our marriage. Sometimes things have permanent consequences and I wish it wasn't the case but it just is.

Me:I guess the problem im having is that i feel that i do know that i hurt you and am try to correct that. But obviously i do not.
Some of the ways that i feel i have hurt you are
Never made you feel loved
Never made you feel beautiful
I made you feel like you had to impress me
I made you feel like you could not be yourself when i was around
I never gave you credit for the stuff you did for the family
Never made you feel safe.
If there is anything more please let me know so i can hopefully come to terms with it and get closure

Never did get a reply to this email.

So A little bit of begging going on. But for the most part tried my best to be loving and forward. I promise no more begging from here on in. I think I set myself up for a good 180 in that if I do not beg or talk about the R anymore and act like I'm moving on with my life(I know I am supposed to try instead of act) but right now I not sure if I can do it. It would be a fairly good 180 on my part. I just suck b/c I am still confused about what I did that was so bad and she does not seem to want to tell me. She says she has no plans on being with anyone else in the near future and just needs time for herself.

[zed]

So I got a reply from my wife this morning about the email above.
"I think closure is going to come from within. Not from what anyone else tells you. Part of the problem at this point is that I feel you're being manipulative and motivated by things that I don't believe are right. Let's just agree to disagree and realize that at this point we just need to move forward with the kids' best interests as the focus."
She never did trust me and always felt I did not have the best interest'sat heart. But she is this way with everyone. Anytime someone says something she picks out 1 work or phase and she gives it a different/negative meaning. Even when I would clean out dishwasher or something for her when I would get home from work while she was relaxing watching TV she would be mad b/c she would think I was doing it to make her look bad. Even though I would say I never minded doing it and just wanted to help with household chores. My love language was acts of service so I thought that was what I would have wanted.

[zed]

So I have held off on replying the last email. I really am angry and I am sick of trying to do nice things and getting them turned around on me by saying I am doing them for other reasons.
There is multiple ways I could reply.
1.No problem I expect this of you. You never believed that anything I did was in the best interests of the family so I don't expect that now.
2. There is so much love in my heart for the kids and you. I feel sorry that you can't see that and hope that 1 day you can.
3. What do you believe is my motivation. Please be honest so that I really know how you feel.
4. My motivation is our kids and the look of disappointment we will see when we tell them mommy and daddy are no longer together.

#1 is what I really want to say right now. #2 is what I think I should really say. #3 is something I really want to know. I am so confused by her thinking right now I just want to get into her head and try to understand what she is thinking. #4 maybe is a little self righteous but that is my main goal. I love my kids so much I don't want to see them hurt.

[zed]

This is really getting to me. And I am starting to get some fight in me. I feel like I try to do nice things and I keep getting walked all over b/c of it.
In fact I agreed to help pay for new boobs for W around 4 months ago. The kids did reek havoc with them and she was really flat. I thought it was nice of me and maybe would help if I agreed to it but always had reservations. She had the surgery 2 weeks ago. I took 1 week off work to help look after kids while she recovered. After 1 day she told me I was spending to much time with the kids and hogging them. She said that she wanted to spend time with them since she was gone for a day and 1/2 getting the surgery. I told her I took time off of work to help you and now you are mad b/c you say you feel better and don't want me around. She said yeah. Maybe you should go back to work. I really feel like a sucker lately.

[zed]

I have so much anger building inside me. Why do I always give in. I have a consultation with my DB coach this afternoon. Hopefully she can help me.

[Mozza]

What you should say is nothing. What you should do is everything.

W: Yes unfortunately I am sure. Some of the things you have said (as well as things that I know for a fact you are going to say in this process) make me confident you still aren't taking ownership for your portion of what went wrong in our marriage.

This is fantastic! She's giving you an opportunity to surprise her! She also seems to have a point: you rely on her to tell you what went wrong in your M, so you keep asking, showing her that you really are clueless. Very few people arrive here with a list from their WAS. They work through the issues with the help of the newbies and the vets. Make this list by yourself. Stop asking her: it's not working. Do more of what works.

Me:I guess the problem im having is that i feel that i do know that i hurt you and am try to correct that. But obviously i do not.
Some of the ways that i feel i have hurt you are
Never made you feel loved
Never made you feel beautiful
I made you feel like you had to impress me
I made you feel like you could not be yourself when i was around
I never gave you credit for the stuff you did for the family
Never made you feel safe.
If there is anything more please let me know so i can hopefully come to terms with it and get closure

What kind of response did you expect from her? An epiphany? "You finally understood! Let's call this thing off!"

So A little bit of begging going on.

A little bit? ;-)

But for the most part tried my best to be loving and forward.

How's that working for you?

I promise no more begging from here on in.

We'll quote you on that. Do it for you, for your M.

I think I set myself up for a good 180 in that if I do not beg or talk about the R anymore and act like I'm moving on with my life(I know I am supposed to try instead of act) but right now I not sure if I can do it. It would be a fairly good 180 on my part.

Yes, you're right, in that sense you're in a good place. You can really surprise her. You also need an attitude adjustment so that you mean it when you do it. This D is going forward, even faster as you try to stop it. One day, you'll be fine, that's for sure. You need to know that, then you need to show her that.

I just suck b/c I am still confused about what I did that was so bad and she does not seem to want to tell me.

Get your head out of the sand and admit to what you've done wrong. Explore, share and see how people around here react. You have obviously doing something wrong and saying you don't know what it is doesn't erase it.

She says she has no plans on being with anyone else in the near future and just needs time for herself.

My W was adamant about this too. "I want to be by myself. I don't want to be in a couple." Yet she had an OM in the wings - probably an EA at that time, became a PA a few weeks later and told me officially 7-8 weeks after leaving. My take is that people so intent on leaving often have something new to look forward to. We don't know. How would it change your behavior knowing she has an EA or PA?

By the way, you're going through things that I just couldn't bear. My W doesn't even talk of divorce and we've had no asset separations. My heart goes to you.

[zed]

I just suck b/c I am still confused about what I did that was so bad and she does not seem to want to tell me.

Get your head out of the sand and admit to what you've done wrong. Explore, share and see how people around here react. You have obviously doing something wrong and saying you don't know what it is doesn't erase it.[quote]

Thanks Mozza. I am trying my best to read up on everything and everyone. Trying to get a game plan moving forward. But sometimes it seems like everyone has different opinions. I am not thinking clearly as it is so when I get these different opinions my mind is really wondering the full range of the spectrum. I feel sometimes it is best for me to pull back. I want someone just to say THIS IS WHAT TO DO. But I know that is not possible. I have to try to search for the answer myself.

[zed]

Talked with DB coach. She gave me some pointers on how to detach and move ahead with my life. It will be tough. Not really confident on what I have to do. But I am going to give it my best shot.

[zed]

Last 2 days. I have been away working. Trying not to think about W at all. Down to maybe 40% of the day so improving. Little to no contact with her except a couple TM about kids parent/teacher interviews. I really feel some space is best for now as after 1st mediation things were pretty tense and I was and still pretty angry with W. Been thinking about something Sandi said with how she believes the WAS should leave with only the clothes on their back.
Mediation was something the W and me sort of both decided. Thinking back I agreed to mediation b/c I thought maybe it would help us get back together. But now not too sure. We are paying for mediation out of our joint account. But now I don't feel right paying for something that is helping her break apart our family and I believe hurt the kids.
I was thinking of sending her a email something like this: "I don't know how you feel mediation is going. It is not going as good as I thought it would. I do not feel right helping you financially and physically do something that is going against something I believe is wrong and breaking our family apart. You can continue to do what ever you feel is necessary and I will do what I have to, out of obligation only. So if we continue mediation or what ever you decide you can have the full responsibility"

What does everyone think of this. I don't believe it is harsh and maybe standing up for myself. Thoughts?

[zed]

Every time I start reading this board and other peoples situations it somehow make me feel better. I find that there are so many of these situations are very similar to mine. The "W" usually leaves around the late twenties to early thirties. She is usually angry and cold and the LBH usually has no idea what happened. Some of us reflect and realize that the W never really felt loved, felt ignored or felt that we never took their feelings into account. I for 1 has never told her that I didn't love her but my actions never always showed it. We then try to better ourselves. First for hopes that W will take notice and decide to stay in the marriage. But then we realize that we have to make the changes for ourselves. So that we could really be happy. If the W comes back that is icing on the cake but at least we are a better person.

I so much want to tell all my friends what I have learned so that they can avoid this. I have 1 friend who when through this exact thing approx. 5 years ago. I wish he would have hit me over the head with a 2x4 so that maybe I would have took notice. But would I have heard? Maybe you only learn and listen when you are ready to.

So a big thanks to everyone on this board for sharing. I am not alright right now. But with support and just knowing so many other people are going through the same thing. I now maybe believe I can get through this. I say this now and maybe tomorrow it will be a bad day and I won't feel the same way. But hopefully those days will get less and less.

[zed]

I don’t remember who’s post I read this on but they were talking about finding someone to look up to and try to be like. I have found my role model. It is my Grandpa. He has been married to the same person for over 50 years. She is starting to have medical issues and he does everything he can for her. He takes time to enjoy the simple pleasures in life. (Just got a chair that helps take you up and down the stairs, he said he rode it 10 times the first day he got it b/c it was fun). He will give the shirt off his back to help anyone. Will take the time to stop on the street to talk to someone barely knows.
This is a man who has 6 kids, probably close to 20 grandkids and probably close to 40 great grand kids. At his age he still know’s everyone’s name where they live and what they do for work. Knows where and what I did for work close to 20 years ago when I graduated and moved 8 hours away and seen him maybe once every 2 years. Always has time for his family. He can tell you the same story 40 times about something he did 50 years ago and it always sounds interesting. Maybe the best thing I love about him is that he is not afraid to share his feelings and tell you how proud his is of you. Something I have really taken to heart and have been making sure I tell my kids how much proud I am of them and how much I love them. I would love to tell “W” the same thing, have tried, but she does not want to hear it right now. Just by his actions he has really shown me how I was so consumed in my life that I have never really looked around to see other people. I’m trying to correct that and I think I’m slowly getting better at it
He’s strong, proud, confident, loving and caring. Someone I really want to be.

[BigMac]

Zed, you nailed it about the pattern. And that finding ourselves is the real benefit of the process.

If the W comes back, and also if we will take them back after is a whole other question, but at least we grow.

[zed]

So A couple days of good detaching and starting to feel a little bit better about myself. Booked a trip to destination wedding in Mexico of one of my good friends that was coming up in Jan. W and I were talking about going and with all this stuff on the back burner we just sort of left it. I decided yesterday that he is a good friend of mine. Was in my wedding party. I am going and I really should not care what she thinks. So back to detaching. I was feeling better about myself. I am really starting to get in good shape, and come Jan for mexico should hopefully be in great shape.
Then last night I had a dream about her. Again all morning I can't get her out of my head. I guess this is a relapse. Hopefully start to feel better soon. I really don't want to feel like this anymore.

[zed]

So I have been gone dark for last week or so only exchanges with "W has been some questions she asked me about the fire place and bye on the phone after talking with kids. I feel like it has helped me detach quite a bit. However tonight W tm me to ask me a question about phone bill here is the exchange
W- do you know what this means you have spent more than $5 on data (I waited for 15 min as she is always just asking me to do stuff and expect's me to be right there for her)
W- Never mind I figured it out
W- Maybe not
M- I don't know what that means but I got an email saying someone is trying to get approval to see account. So that must have been something you are trying to do?
W- Maybe from me? I was trying to log on to see my data
M- K I will call them when I get time and sort it out
W- I don't think there is anything to sort out, just trying to see if I went over on Internet of texting
W- Or even if it matters
M- Probably don't want to be paying extra if we don't have to
W- K I will look into it. I would rather start learning how to do all this stuff myself (This feels like she is trying to dig the knife into my heart more re-affirming that she wants out)
M- K let me know if you have any troubles (Me trying to be nice but letting her do what she wants)
W- Thx

So I hate that all it takes is a little text message to get me down again. I don't know if I could have done anything else. Was I passive/aggressive. I know this is something that I just shouldn't worry about but it still gets me so much. If I can't handle this it is going to be even tougher when we are face to face at our 2nd mediation in about a week. I have so far to go to detach so that these little things don't hurt anymore

[zed]

Last time at mediation W and I decided we would buy another house. I would live in it when she had kids. W would live in it when I had kids. Until we can figure out finaces and decide who is moveing out of the matrimonial house

Now she decided that she does not want to do that. As she would just stay with her mom. So to it feels like she wants me to move out, pay the rent all b/c she does not want to be with me anymore. I not too sure how to react to this but for now I said I would think about it. I really feel like I am sort getting pushed to do something I do not want to. She wants to end this and not be part of this family. She can move.

[zed]

I'm so confused right now. It seems like I can't do anything right. I am trying to detach and be loving. W thinks I being manipulating. She does not believe a thing I say. We are getting all financial stuff together to split. I sent her everything I can think. I put everything down to the penny. She thinks I holding stuff back.
W says she wants space. I took work away for 8 days to get her space. Then come home for 3 days and she is saying I'm not giving her space. Why can't she make her own space and leave for awhile if she wants it so bad. She says I'm not being fair by not wanting to move out. Why is that not fair. It is our house. If she wants space. Take it yourself. Its seems like she wants me to do everything. Is it just the way I see it or does she have a point. I think this is just spew but hard not to try to think that you are not being fair when W is so sure of it.

[zed]

So I kind of think I found out why "W" thinks I have not took ownership of the situation. She says that I not taking ownership b/c I say she is making a choice to separate/divorce.

I think I have taken ownership. I have done a lot of soul searching. I have realized that I never shown her how much I did love her. I think I took her for granted. It [censored] but I could have avoided this. I just showed up late for the party. I have changed myself. Is that the best I can do.

[zed]

Another day of mediation tomorrow. She is so sure that I am not being fair. By wanting the kids 50/50. Wanting the house. That she is getting very angry. I don't like how this is turning out. She said it is over so I am trying to look after my interests for the rest of my life. I don't want to have the kids feel like I abandoned them.

I feel like if I cave and give her what she wants. She would be happy and there would be a chance to get back together in the future. But If we don't I don't think I could live with myself for giving everything up and not going for what I believe is right. And if I go for what I think if fair. There will be so hard of feelings that there will be no chance of getting back together.

[zed]

Well another day of mediation down. W is getting really frustrated b/c I do not want to move out. Sometimes I think it might be just better if I did. Space would probably be the best for both of us. I'm so conflicted on what to do. If I moved would I be showing kids that I gave up on them. She is the one who wants separate residence's so why should I be the 1 to move. Sounds like it will be a couple more months living together before we can get all the finaces figured out to see if/who can afford to have the house. She says I am not being fair and that I should be the one to leave the house.

[zed]

So Middle of last night after our mediation I got this email from my W. (we sleep in separate bedrooms)
I am starting to see a pattern and wondering if you can see it too...

1. a big part of the reason our Marriage falls apart is because you have a one track mind and won't listen to anything I tell you trying to get you to see the light in the situation

2. Marriage therapist tells us not to come back because you are set in your way of thinking and not willing to cooperate

3. Mediator is getting so fed up with trying to help us because basically everything she suggests about parenting plan you shut down bc you are being so difficult (when she asks you about work and hours you're just like,"I don't know, I can't have a schedule..." "I don't know - could be bad roads, etc."

Have you ever taken a step back to look at how narrow minded you can be? Seems to me the pattern is that you decide on one thing/way of thinking and won't consider anything else. I was also wondering how this way of thinking is working so far for you? I DEFINITELY know that I am not perfect either but I just am coming to some realizations based on recent events that maybe your typical approach to situations hasn't had the most positive outcomes... I know for a fact the more resistance there is in this situation the uglier it is going to get. And what I am referring to is the fact that you refuse to move out of this house - even temporarily - and are dead set on 50/50 with the kids without even hardly considering anything else.

I'm sure this is going to piss you off but at this point I really don't care. This could be resolved in a conflict free way but we are definitely heading down a different road and the sad part is that it's going to be the kids who suffer the most.

This is what I replied to her
I dont think that this piss' s me off. I know this of myself to an extent. I know at times i can have tunnel vision and that is one of the reasons our marriage failed.
But i dont know if you realize how many options i have thought of regarding this whole seperation thing. Every day i try to think of how you are feeling, what are the best options with the kids, and what i can possibly live with for the rest of my life. I have been very conflicted about this for a long time. There have been so many times i have thought to myself if i really am doing what is good, fair, and best for all parties. So it may seem like i am being stubborn or pig headed. But i do try really hard to put lots of thought into everything.
I know i am very far from perfect. But i am trying the very best i know how.
I am very open to discussing any options together with or without the mediator. I know sometimes it takes me a couple of days to reflect and come up with a different ideas.

[zed]

W if angry. just got this tm. This has probably been the worst 24 hours of my life and I am so close to tossing your clothes out onto the front lawn.
Please some one help.

[zed]

Okay I replied with this. I understand things are not good and this situation is not the greatest.
Then I get these angry tm back

-Are you a fkn robot

-I am so pissed that you're just dragging this out. Havent we been miserable long enough

- You have no idea how close I am to filing a court order.

Right now I do not think I should reply with anthing

[zed]

This has hit me hard. I was having a bad day of detaching already now this just plain fkn hurts.

[zed]

So after that spew from the W I haven't heard anything more. I think tomorrow I will send a TM as follows: If you want to discuss any possible solutions to our situation in a calm matter I will do so.

[HPoirot]

My opinion... Don't send the a follow-up text message. Leave it to her to start with you. If she starts badly, tell her to talk later then.

[gan]

Sorry Zed. That sounds really tough to endure. I'm not up to speed on your thread but I agree with HP - don't send the text unless she picks things up in a similar vein. If you do send a text - maybe try something a little lighter like "Happy to hear your ideas about possible solutions at another time when we can chat more calmly."

[zed]

Thanks Hpoirot and ganb8te. Any helps or suggestions help me so much. As I feel so lost right now.

I still love my W so much and want to get back together. I want my happy family back. I know I am a big part of why our marriage failed an why she does not love me anymore. I dismissed her for the last year when she said our marriage was in trouble. I just "chalked it up" to her having a "bad day". As she seemed happy after a couple days. And even approx. 1 month before BD she told me how happy she was with our family.

But if we do not get back together. I will carry this guilt for the rest of my life. The guilt of failing my kids, the person I love and myself. Its hard not to think that I am failing again. As I don't know what is right. I feel that I am trying the best that I can. I would love to give her the house and all the time with the kids that she wants. But if it really is over will I regret giving in to what I feel is right in 5 years, 10 years, more. As I mentioned before. I just feel so lost and want someone to tell me what is the right thing to do. At the same time I don't think anyone will be able to tell me the right thing.....

[zed]

More spew from the W. This must be the it get harder before it gets better. This is about how I don't want to leave the house and I believe she should as she is the one who wants to end this
Email I got today below.

The crazy part to me is that you actually think you are being reasonable. I don't really care how many therapists you see and what they are telling you... I have NO doubt in my mind you are not telling them the truth of the situation. And IF you are - I think you are delusional and are not seeing the situation for what it is. This situation is NOT GOOD FOR THE KIDS. You say you are more than willing to work with ideas with or without the mediator but you ARE NOT. This is what makes me feel you are totally delusional!!! Basically anything brought up in mediation (or out of mediation) you argue with and disagree with - unless it's YOUR idea. If you say you know you are pig headed and narrow minded, and recognize it hasn't produced good results for you, then why are you still being pig headed and narrow minded?!?! And why do you need to ask a therapist if you are being that way? Can you not recognize it for yourself? Or are you just using them to twist things around so that they confirm your behavior and choices are acceptable? My point is that you need to look at your idea of the "best you know how" and realize that maybe what you think isn't always right... The proof is in the results. Even looking back at our first mediation... She was trying to come up with a plan for us to have SPACE so that we could possibly save our marriage and you just dismissed it and would not cooperate once we got home because you had another idea in your mind - what "you thought was right" I'm sure. If you would have just listened I believe we would right now be on WAY better terms. Now that you have resisted any changes and decided to be 100% stubborn there is NO CHANCE LEFT that I would ever want to be in a marriage with you. Everything is YOUR way and I am done with it. You cannot be reasoned with - even though in your head, you think you're being reasonable? Thanks to the events of the past 4 months I AM DONE. Now all we have left is a parenting relationship that is also failing very rapidly. I cannot believe we are under the same roof at this point. I feel so sorry for the kids. When a two year old starts telling her mommy,"Don't worry Momma, don't worry" there is something wrong!!!! They see and feel the unhappiness in this house but yet you seem to still think us all staying in here and torturing ourselves is "the right thing to do". The kids need happy parents and a stress free environment. Period.

I don't know what to do anymore.

[zed]

I have told her before. If you want space you can take it. I don't keep you tied up in the basement. You are free to come and go as you please. I don't believe it is up to me to give intentionally work away from home and leave the house to give you your space.

I have been making a effort to give her space. I by no way follow her around the house. I usually try to take the kids downstairs to play. And when she is playing with the kids I go find something else to do. I have been taking work away from home to give her some space. When I am not working at home I go out 1-2 nights a week to play hockey. I also try to go out with friend once a week. So it should be on her to make her own space as well right?

[GoatGal]

Hey there, zed.

Sorry to read you've been hanging out in the spewing wind by yourself these past days. I know many have been busy with Thanksgiving, etc., so it's been rough.

Just reading part of your sitch, it looks as though you're in a rough spot.
It's hard to say if you really are being stubborn, or--as I suspect--your wife is working really hard into intimidating you into doing what SHE wants you to do and so far it hasn't worked.

So now she's upping the ante, saying the kids will suffer... As if they won't suffer when their mother blows up their family?

This is just my opinion now, but here it is:

I think it's perfectly fair to expect 50/50 custody of YOUR children. At least. That is, if you are in a position with work/finances, to provide a good environment for them.

I also think it's perfectly fair for you to remain in YOUR house, at least for the time being. It sounds as though, if W really wants "space" she can go stay with her mother, right?

You offered to buy another house and do what is called "Nesting" meaning the kids stay put and you and W alternate staying in the home with them. If you can afford it, what is wrong with this setup in your W's mind, do you think?

You are out, GALing, as you should be. As long as you are keeping up with your responsibilities around the home and being the best father you can be, that GALing should be your #1 priority for you to detach.
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So yeah--put on the spew jacket and try and ignore her until more vets chime in here. It really sounds like she's trying to bait you or make you feel guilty for not being the perfect husband in the past, and hope that will cause you to back down, move out, and give her--what--75% custody of the children and the house?

Of course you could have done things better in the marriage.
But let's look at who is doing what NOW. She is breaking up the family. You are trying to keep it together.

Leaving her husband hardly qualifies for "Wife of the Year".
So do not let her push all the guilt onto you for whatever mistakes you might have made in the past.
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I don't recall all of your sitch, but did she repeatedly voice her discontent and/or suggest solutions to her unhappiness? Did you ignore or downplay her concerns?
Those things are all important to see where so much resentment is coming from on her end.

But many times, the LBS are just human. Not perfect, could have done things better, maybe were a$$hats from time to time. But usually the WAS is no saint, either.
You made mistakes, you'll keep from making the same ones in the future, right?

But today, she is spewing like crazy, sounds like.

So I would give her all the space she wants--but SHE needs to be the one to get it for herself. There is no need for you to hide in the bathroom because she doesn't want you around. If that's the case, she can go out, or go into another room.

Try not to respond to anything right now other than to validate what she says.
I would NOT repeat your case any more, that "she needs to give herself space", etc.

Just do what you would normally do and let HER take the actions SHE needs to take.

It's a boundary thing.
You're not supposed to try to control her or make her do anything, but she is trying to do that to you. She doesn't have that power. You don't need to explain it to her again.


The more you allow her to dredge up these subjects over and over and beat them to death, while berating you in the process for not doing what she wants, it weakens your position.

You have stated your case... now let it go.

If she complains, you can say something like: "The children and I are going to watch a movie here in the living room..." If she complains, simply say "You're free to do as you wish. This is what I am going to do."

Yes. She is going to call your assertiveness "pigheaded" and "stubborn". Because it's probably new for you (?)
As long as you are acting in accordance with your values, with compassion, and the best interests of yourself and your children at heart, then you are on the right track.

I'd plan on her increasing her spew as she realizes that she's not getting everything she wants.
---------------------------------------------------------------

And--not to freak you out---but somebody else on here suggested she may well have OM waiting in the wings. Most women don't jump out of the marriage until they have something else to jump into. Especially if they're in a big hurry to do so.

So fasten your seatbelt for that possibility.

No need to respond to spewing texts, comments, emails, or anything else. If she communicates with you in a calm, reasonable way, you can engage with her as long as you're not repeating what you've already said. If it requires immediate action on your part.
Aside from that, I'd work hard on being pleasant but busy, busy, busy, being upbeat with your kids and your GALing, and not too interested in her at the moment! Shift your focus to something--anything else--for the next few days.

If your position is she is going to be the one to move out and you want 50/50 custody, then that's the price she pays for leaving the M. If you believe this is right, then stick to your guns.


Hang in there....

--(G)GGG

[zed]

Hey there, zed.


I also think it's perfectly fair for you to remain in YOUR house, at least for the time being. It sounds as though, if W really wants "space" she can go stay with her mother, right?

Yah her mother lives 15 min away. She can live there if she wants. But she says then the kids will have to move. I said the kids don't have to move they can stay with me.

You offered to buy another house and do what is called "Nesting" meaning the kids stay put and you and W alternate staying in the home with them. If you can afford it, what is wrong with this setup in your W's mind, do you think?

This is where the wife said she would not stay in the house anyway. She would now just stay at her mom's. So she wants me to do all the work to buy the house furnish it etc.

I don't recall all of your sitch, but did she repeatedly voice her discontent and/or suggest solutions to her unhappiness? Did you ignore or downplay her concerns?
Those things are all important to see where so much resentment is coming from on her end.

Yah she had depression issues before marriage. Issues with body image. First couple of years I spent a lot time reassuring her and try to help. But after awhile I felt I could not help anymore. I did not know what else to say. She started to go to therapy a bit. W mother suggested her go on anti-depressents. W did not want to and I felt same way and tried to support her in that.
Every 2-3 months she would be sitting crying. I did not know how to fix it anymore and I couldn't deal with it so I started to give her space. "It is what I would have wanted" A day later she would be better. So I thought she was better and was "just having a bad day". Then about a year and a half ago during her crying episodes she would mention "she was not happy" and that we should go to MC. I just chalked it up to her having another bad day. Because sometimes even a week after she would tell me how happy she was with our family. I know realize that she was always hurt and just trying to cheer herself up and put on a brave face.

But many times, the LBS are just human. Not perfect, could have done things better, maybe were a$$hats from time to time. But usually the WAS is no saint, either.
You made mistakes, you'll keep from making the same ones in the future, right?

You are absolutely right.

Thank GG. This is been really hard. I still really love my W. It is hard to think how much pain I must have caused to have her feel this strongly about me.

[zed]

Before GG replied I had already sent this email
I understand you are angry and frustrated. I know that we are not going to agree on everything and at the end we will both feel like we lost out. This is a hard situation. We each have our reasons why we don’t want to leave the house and that is hard.

Didn’t we agree on a parenting schedule last mediation? Still 9 and 5. Days or hours. It doesn’t matter. On days that I work away you have the house all to your self. And on days that I work around home it was 9 hours and 5 hours. Am I wrong on this? I just had to give you something like least 1 hours’ notice.
One of the things I had a question about is something like hockey practice and games. If I take the 2 big kids and you take Tay who’s parenting time is it? Or do we just rotate hockey practice and games.

As for financials. We really don’t need mediator if we want. Other people do it themselves. This is faster and would not cost any money. But for some reason I think you believe that I am hiding stuff from you. I would be more than willing to sit down and talk reasonably about our finances and assets. I believe we both forget what the each person has done and helped with over the last how many years. If you think I will take advantage of you or something you can have your mom or dad there if you feel better about that.
Let me know what you would like to do.

This is what she replied to it

First off, the 9:5 hour thing is retarded. The only reason I somewhat agreed to it was because the mediator was about to LOSE her mind and it was time to get out of there. It's so dumb. I want to be IN SEPARTE households. Right now I want to have a little interaction between us two as possible. According to the 9:5 hour ratio crap, I am living my life from hour to hour to convenience you - as per usual. I'm done living my life strictly around your work. The world does not revolve around you anymore. When we were married you didn't give me a choice - things are different now.

There is NO WAY I would ever agree to separate finances without professional help. Going through the mediator is a minimum (I have my doubts that even she knows how to sort out our mess)- I'm pretty sure this will end up with more intervention from a lawyer. It's just a matter of time.The minute you said you were going to try to take the house I knew there was no way we were going to agree. If I let you tell me what was going to be "fair" with the finances I would get [censored]. Guaranteed. I need to look out for my future. You have several ways to secure income - I have nothing at all. Totally starting from scratch with no guarantees of any kind. I don't know what you mean when you say "I believe we both forget what the each person has done and helped with over the last how many years." but if I gave you a chance to explain, I'm pretty sure I would flip my lid bc I am pretty sure YOU have forgotten how I have bent over backwards so that you could do whatever you wanted to get yourself to where WE are financially. I also don't think my mom and dad should be involved at this point for everyone's best interests. I would be willing to discuss it with my lawyer there, but that's about it. If you wanted to do that, I'm game. Also, there is no way in hell we are going to agree on spousal support. Guaranteed. I know for a fact you think I don't deserve anything and I am definitely not rolling over on that one.
Also, the only reason the 9:5 hour thing was brought up was bc you had no place to go when you were working around home. Now that we thought of the office trailer we shouldn't have to worry about that.

So I want to state a boundry saying that I will not reply to any more angry emails. Or should I just keep responding by validating and being strong but not being angry.
I want to tell her that she is the one not doing something we agreed to in mediation.
As for as meeting with her Lawyer. I feel I can do that. I feel confident in myself that I can keep calm and knowledge of the laws that shouldn't screw up to much. But I also want her to know that if she wants to keep spending money on a lawyer that she is the one paying for these added expenses with her part of the settlement.

Any more thoughts?

[zed]

Also is it wrong to feel comfort in how she is totally loosing it right now. For some reason I am really hurt but not mad. I don't feel revengeful for her words. I actually feel pretty calm right now.

[GoatGal]

Zed,

I am taking the liberty of re-posting sandi's advice on another thread that just popped up again on HPoirot's.

You should take this to heart because it's the truth. A painful truth, but you might as well swallow this bitter pill and get it over with.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Sandi2:
"I can give you a few things to expect. Some may consider this as negative talk, but I see it as preparing you for the reality that will hit. these are just a few random thoughts that come to mind. No particular order, and there are many other things that could be added, but this will start you out.

- She will blame you for all of her unhappiness.
-She will make you out to be the bad guy by rewriting history or whatever she has to do to make herself look justified in having an A and ending the M.
-She will use you for whatever suits her need at that moment.
-She will play on your sympathy, and expect you to feel sorry for her.
-She has a bag of tricks, and will not hesitate in using them in order to accomplish what she wants. Guilt is one of her favorites.
-She will cling to old resentments from the past.
- She will have wide mood swings that are worse than any PMS you've ever witnessed.
-She will do something or say something a little nicer, that will completely throw you off balance.
-She will be deceptive, even when she doesn't have to be.
-She will not be logical. You cannot reason with her.
-She is not the girl you M.
-She does have her head in fantasy clouds. She has a fantasy about OM and their future together.
-She will not hear, nor does she want to listen to anything about working on the M.
-She will not trust your changes to be genuine or to last.
-She may kiss, hug, cuddle, or even have sex with you (depending on the woman), but it does not mean she has had a change of heart, or that it is a good sign of anything.
-She will want to continue some family activities and maintain her position (in name only) as the woman of the family. She does not want to be "replaced", although, she doesn't want you.
-She wants to do things with the family in her time frame and on her conditions, not yours.
-She does not have the best interest of you or her kids at the core of her decisions.
-She will show disrespect for you.
-She is addicted to the thrill of the A.
-She is capable of feeling some guilt, but not in the way you may think she should. She does not feel remorseful for her actions.
-She will probably get worse before getting better.
-She has to experience some kind of loss in order to get out of the fog.
-She cannot be rescued.
-She seems to be insensitive to your pain or the children hurting.
-She must face reality of what she's done.
-She can turn around, but it takes a long time.
----------------------------------------------------------------

This specifically deals with a WAS in an affair, but it also applies to a WAW even when there is no OP present.
It's a mindset. You become the enemy and they need to justify their actions of leaving the marriage.

That's why it's so important not to believe anything they say. They don't tell the truth. And that's just the beginning.



---(G)GGG

[GoatGal]

OK. Just read that last bit.

First of all--STOP REPLYING TO THIS STUFF FROM HER.

She is being nasty now "It's retarded"? You have said what you have to say and now it's time to LET IT GO.

No more "explaining" or trying to point out that you mean no harm.
Clearly it hasn't worked yet.
She's got herself worked up and you need to de-escalate. Which means stop engaging.
Period.

Sounds to me that you've actually done some of the things she's wanted, like going the mediator, agreeing to work on the finances, but now she's not getting the results she wants so it's going to continue to spiral out of control here until one of you takes the reins and says: "Whoa!"
And that's not gonna be her.

She has said: "I WANT. I WANT..." She has stated her boundaries clearly and is expecting you to bend to her will.
You have stated yours.

Conversation over for the time being.

This is a lose:lose right now. She's gone into being disrespectful and going back on what you agreed to with the mediator because it's not what SHE "wants".

Well, life ain't fair. Just look at all of us on this board...

You are not responsible for her depression, for not being a therapist, or for her choice to leave the M. You do not have to "help" her, or rescue her from her own actions. If and when the time comes, you can bend over backwards to help her return to the M and to make yourself a better man.

But let's be clear: SHE chose this. There were other options available, if I'm not mistaken.
If it's not unfolding the way she'd anticipated, so it goes.

You continue to be strong and let her spin for awhile.

You don't need to be a jerk or be cold. Just refuse to discuss it further.
At least for several days.

You don't need to explain this any further other than to say: "We agreed on a plan at the mediator's. I'm through discussing it with you for now." And then just walk away and get busy doing something else.


---(G)GGG

[zed]

As suggested I will leave this for today and not give a reply. Maybe reply on Monday. As for now I have been invited to a birthday party. A lot of people I don't know. Usually would not go. But perfect time to meet new people.
Thanks GG for all your help. I always feel like I am so unsure of myself. I keep asking everyone if I'm doing the right thing. Maybe 1 day I will be able to say I did.

[GoatGal]

Zed... you will. It's a learning process and it's really hard for all of us at first.

Don't plan on responding to her on Monday, either.
Perhaps move past the idea that every time she communicates with you, you are obligated to respond.

Go to the party, meet some new people. Get your mind off things. Don't talk about your W--focus on other people and how you can get to know them.

I go places all the time by myself. I've met great people that way.

Have fun!


---(G)GGG

[zed]

I know GG suggested not to reply to any email. But I believe some of the parenting plan needs to be worked out. So this is what I was possibly going to send her on Monday.

The idea of talking was so that we don’t have to continue to spend money on mediator etc. I don’t know how talking with your lawyer will save any money as he will want to be paid as well. That being said I have thought about it and I am fine with meeting with your lawyer once if you think it will help get some of these issue’s resolved. But I will only do this if you agree that all these added expenses for your lawyer, getting a company assesment for amped, extra accounting fees for amped, etc. will be coming out of your part of the settlement. As I do not believe spending money on these are necessary.

I believe that the 9:5 hour thing would not be that bad if you gave it a try. But you are free to have your own opinion. As for the trailer it has merit however I would have to try to find someplace that has 30 amp power and sewer then winterize it when it was my time in the house. But I am not going to stay in the trailer for over 18 days a month. I would be willing to do this if we went to a 7 and 7. Otherwise I believe we should do the 9:5 as we decided in mediation.

Also what is your answer on the hockey/parenting plan question I asked you.

Anybody have any input. Should I send this or just leave it alone

[GoatGal]

Zed,

If it's not required right away, hold off and see if some vets chime in here.

Personally, I think it's way too wordy anyhow. Their brains can't take in that much info.

If CAN leave it alone--please do so.

---(G)GGG

[Wonka]

Zed,

There's a reason for the v. between the parties (got this gem from Starsky) so you must treat W as the opponent. I strongly urge you to get your own L and have your L handle all negotiations going forward.

It does you NO good to continue engaging with W and trying to negotiate with her for all sees that you are being controlling, blah, blah.

I'd suggest that you respond to W:

W,

It seems that we are far apart on some items and we can agree to disagree in a respectful way. Please cease swearing and using disrespectful language in your communications. I am sorry that you're feeling frustrated. This isn't easy on us at all and I would like to see the both of us treat each other with respect and dignity.

I hope you will have a good week.

Take care,
Zed

It is useless trying to argue or defend yourself. It is a massive wasste of energy. My L did a very good job in negotiations with Ms. Wonka for it protected me from stress and emotional turmoil. Mind you, Ms. Wonka did send texts during this time and I had to instruct my L to inform her L to tell Ms. Wonka that she was NOT to contact me at all.

Stop engaging W in those emails. It is futile.

[zed]

Something hit me and now I feel like I might have made the wrong decision a couple months ago. W wanted space. Wanted me to move out. I said no you can move out if you want to seperate. Now I am in this situation where she is spewing venom at me and I can see there is so much hate I can't see that hate ever going away. Did I loose this all. Was that the wrong decision. If I would have moved out could we have saved our marriage? It sure doesn't look like it can be saved now.
IDK what is the best thing to do. This is so hard

[Little]

I don't think you made the wrong choice. If she's the party that wants space, she can go find it. She's the one with the issue.

[Calibri]

Zed,

The what ifs haunt us, especially in hard times. I constantly wonder, "what if I hadn't tried to buy the house with my H, would this be happening to me? What if I hadn't had the argument about his mother and just stfu? What if I had gone on the trip with him to his family. What if, What if......."

We can second guess our decisions until the cows come home. It doesn't change our situations. We have no way of knowing what would've happened, because, well, that's not what happened. Honestly, I think it's a way of torturing ourselves. thinking about the could've, would've, should've.

I know this is hard. Especially being on the receiving end of such hate.

Do the best that you can, right now. Today. That's all you can do. take care of yourself.

[GoatGal]

zed,

The idea that there was something you could have done/not done that would have proven that this situation is really under your control after all is a fantasy.

You refusing to move out was based on what you knew at the time and what you believed was best. She didn't get what she wanted and she's angry.

Being angry at you is a way to push your buttons, make you feel like a heel, and hopefully, get you to do as she wishes in the future.

Don't fall for it.

She wanted "space", then she does the work to get it.
Simple.

Hang in there...

--(G)GGG

[zed]

Quite the pity party I'm having last night and this morning. Thanks everyone for your support. I have to find a way to work myself out of this funk. What can I do the decision has been made. It most likely won't help to go back on the decision now. The damage has been done weather it was the right decision or not. How do you know?

[SunnyB]

If I would have moved out could we have saved our marriage? It sure doesn't look like it can be saved now.

The damage has been done weather it was the right decision or not. How do you know?

Zed, you'll never know. And it doesn't matter, you can't change it anyway. All you have to work with is the right now.

I wonder if I hadn't had my head buried so far in the sand and had figured out H's A much earlier in the game, would he have given it up? I'd like to think yes, but that puts the blame on me for not finding out earlier, and that's crazy. It was his bad decision to break our M vows. Same thing with you. You can blame yourself for not moving out, but what does that accomplish, really? Nothing.

Take what you have now and go from there.

[zed]

One thing I am struggling with is. W has said previously. You don't know...we might be happier apart. Just look at so and so they seem happier after they split. I replied to her. You don't know that. Maybe they would be happier if they were still together.
With DB you are supposed to GAL, have a PMA and work your hardest to seem happy around your WAS. To show them what they are missing. The problem I have with this is then she might think she was right. That I am happier being apart then if we were together. Thus reinforcing her idea that it is easier to split then to work on making a happier marriage together.
I do feel like I can be happy with out her. However I know I would be happier with my W. With both of us in the same house as the kids. And knowing the kids have a happy stable family.

So if "faking"(that is how I feel for now maybe 1 day I can be happy) I truly am happy is this counter productive? Does that put me closer to my goal of getting my W back? Or do I need to change my goal?

[jim0987]

I know exactly what you mean (as I'm sure you know from my thread).

Think if it this way though what's the alternative? Show her we are miserable? I certainly have done that and thats got me nowhere. She wants to be happy (and so do you) and its a lot more fun to be round a happy person. The less happy you show the less she would believe that she could be happy with you.

But if you goal is to show your wife your happy then I'd say you need to change it to the more simple you want to be truly happy. Your R should only be one part of that grid and so maybe in the short term the goals should be :

1) Be truly happy in every aspect if your life that isn't your M
2) Show your wife the happiest and most positive side of you

If you can do those then as much as anything she might start to wonder about her role in making you seem unhappy(er) before and that might trigger the introspection she needs to do.

[fade]

If your wife has a lawyer, you need one too. Its just not an option not to. And dont ever, ever meet with her lawyer without your own.

Lots of men fall into the mental trap you are driving straight into: "if I give her what she wants, placate her, do anything I can to help her she will appreciate it and want to stay married, or she will not be angry and will want to stay married". Then you walk into mediation and hand over your kids and your future earnings to her and her future husbands/boyfriends with a smile on your face.

This might make some sense to you in your view, but her view is that she is getting a divorce no matter what, and the easier you make it for her, the better that decision will seem.

The reality is she is driving this decision, she is way ahead of you, and you are going to lose the house and kids and end up paying her half your paycheck. She will sure be happy then! Giving her 9:5 custody now guarantees she will have at least this much, probably more. You have set a precedent of giving up primary custody of your kids, men cant afford to make such a huge mistake as this. You have to remember that anything you give up, that and more is gone forever.

I really think you need to not do any more mediation, because you are going to make concessions that you will regret the rest of your life. Right now she just wants you gone more than anything else. You cannot control whether you two are together or not, so right now you need to frame your thinking that separation is inevitable. But you can control what she has to give up, and what you can protect so she can have her space. Staying emotionally strong, financially secure, and with equal rights to your children are the only goals that are within your control from this point on.

[Wonka]

Zed,

Remember to believe none of what they say and half of what they do?? Exactly.

With DB you are supposed to GAL, have a PMA and work your hardest to seem happy around your WAS. To show them what they are missing. The problem I have with this is then she might think she was right. That I am happier being apart then if we were together.

This is mindreading at its finest...^^. Don't go there. You do GAL because you enjoy those activities, not as a tactic. One's happiness and contentment radiates outward and WAS is bound to get curious. This is where patience comes in play. Your W is like the shifty squirrel who isn't sure whether to trust you or not. They're eyeballing you to see if your changes are indeed for real not some showman's trick.

Yeah...'fake it until you make it' is so true. Keep going, Zed. You're headed in the right direction.

[zed]

Thax Jim and Wonka. Sometimes you feel lost and not on the right path

[zed]

I picked a couple of these from a post from Silent Man today
- Be there for her no matter what
- The more she dislikes you, the easier her decision to leave is
- Do not fuel her fire

He in lies the problem. W is the one who wants to end this. But she wants the house and wants to have the kids most of the time telling me to leave. Don't get me wrong I want the house as well and I want to have the kids 50/50.
Any time we try to discuss this it seems like she freaks out and says that I am not being fair and being stubborn. I don't know but I feel that I am trying to be fair. Ever since I brought up that I am not leaving the house things have detoriated badly. She now says she hates me and there is not chance we are getting back together. We used to talk a bit, now nothing except a couple emails about when it is my turn to have kids and what to get them for Christmas.

So her in lies the problem. We aren't supposed to upset them anymore but at the same time we aren't supposed to give them everything they want. B/c you may regret it in the future and it makes you look weak. So how do we manage this balance? Not fueling her fire, but still not looking weak and looking out for your best interest's if we don't get back together?


On another note:

I really liked this quote from Silent Man. I might steal it and use it as my new motto

- A man is not finished when he is defeated, he is finished when he quits.

My IC noted something of me that after only 1 session. She said you are a committed guy. I all aspects of life. Which is true. If I start something. I am going to finish it no matter how hard it is so much so that I get tunnel vision and the end goal is all that is see. (One of the reason's I got in this mess) Wish I would have had my relationship as my goal the whole time. Instead of work/early retirement.

[zed]

So morning started out with an email from W replying about a question I had about the company I own and how we should figure out value. I suggested an option that we would not have to spend money on an accountant. I replied after about a hour. All business no pushing.

She then tried to get me to tell her how I thought everything should be split up. I said I don't know yet as we discussed in mediation I had to get a whole bunch of stuff together for a farm that my dad and I own. But we can sit down and talk about it if you want and try to get a better idea.

She asked me another question about finaces and said we could never sit down and talk about it before so how can we now. (Every time we talked before I was calm and business like. She would start to flip out)

I replied with. I know its not going to be easy talking about it but it will probably have to get done one way or another. So whatever you feel comfortable with.

Then comes the spew.
"maybe you should focus on what you have now. I highly doubt you had much before hand" (I worked my ass of for 10 years with a fairly high paying job prior to getting married. I had lots.)

"And to be totally honest with you... I have my suspicions you are going to start manipulating assets there" (Talking about my farm with my dad)

"Right now we need to know who stays in the house. .. a few thousand dollars here and there is not going to be the deciding factor in that. Our next mediator appointment will he who knows when.... we need to get one of us out of the house NOW."

I want to tell her "leave then" But I think it is just best that I don't respond at all.
Thoughts?

[Wonka]

I wouldn't respond to W's rants, Zed.

Do you have your own L representing your interests? I think your W is clueless about this whole process. We always tell LBS here to get their own L as a way to protect their finances and assets. That is what a separation does...it is just a business transaction at this point.

Does not necessarily mean that a D is the next step.

[zed]

I have had a consult with a L. And I have made an appointment to ask L a couple more questions. Reading HP's thread. Sandy has stated that you should look after you finances and maybe protect yourself in the form of cutting credit cards etc. Last mediation I mentioned this that I am have heard horror stories and that we should do something to protect ourselves from each other. I mentioned each taking a set amount of money out of our joint account and that is all we should use until we have stuff figured out. She came unglued at this. Should this really be something that I push? All the credit cards except for 1 are in my name.

[Wonka]

Zed,

We encourage all LBS to protect themselves financially because you really cannot trust the WAS not to take out money when they do it all the time under the cover of darkness.

As for credit cards, you do know that closing out credit cards will affect your scores. Take a hard look at them and determine if that's the best path forward for you. If you do see suspicious activity on any of those cards, then you know W has been using them and you would want to close them out.

If those cards are in your name, I would talk with each credit card rep and inform them to remove W name as an authorized user. This means only you can use the card and you can ask the credit card rep to put down that only you will be allowed to use those cards.

That one joint card is something that you can try to get your name removed. If not successful, then just close it.

Do your homework before closing out any of these cards. If I were you, I'd keep the cards in your name and just ask the reps to remove W's name as an authorized user.

This way, you get to keep your cards and your credit score will not take a hit.

[zed]

Well so much for the PMA. I have been away working for last 9 days. Finally got home and I have the kids for the next 4 days. I was feeling really good excited to see and play with the kids.

Stepped in the house. W said I want to talk about something. I said okay. She wanted to talk about how to split up assets. She showed me a spreadsheet with our assets and how to divide them. I told her we could do this another time. She keep insisting. So I finally broke down and looked at it. She had so much stuff out of wack and estimated wrong so that she looks like fairly splitting assets were way off. I tried to stay calm but I started to show my anger. She left angry and it ruined me as I have been telling her that we should just talk about stuff instead of spending money with lawyers. And she has been saying that we can't talk about it.

So I ruined my chance to be calm and cool. Now that is all I can think about. I took my 3 D to see santa tonight and was hoping it would be fun but now all I can think about is how I screw'd up. I have to try not to let this wreck the rest of my days with the girls.

[Ggrass]

Don't worry. I had to leave to room to cry and vomit durring the first mediation.

H left to pee and could not be bothered to zip his fly. Just shows how wacky this whole thing is. If she starts have a discussion, plan to leave or duck for cover. Have set times or just use set mediation sessions in which to discuss it don't let her manipulate or blind side you.

I have the farm tenant turn up here often out of the blue, so my words always told him I'm out often socialising in the evenings. Attending things. light breezey, so when they started turning up regular like Fridays I had friends on stand by whom I knew I could ring and get dressed up for coffee and off out. Hi bye can't stop, don't know when I'll be back. I have somewhere far more pressing to be, attitude.

Made sure they would be gone when I came home, come home mostly after 11. Make sure words and actions show.

It's not all game over, think marathon not a sprint.
Tomorrow is another day, in which to move along in a more positive direction.

[zed]

I really don't understand women or at least the W.

A little bit of history. We have been to mediation 3 times. First time was this aug. It is what actually snapped me out of my way of thinking. I was angry W did not love me anymore etc. So I decided after that day that I did love my W and family and wanted to do anything possible to save it. Started to read books and found this forum.

2nd mediation we decided on a shared custody schedule of 9 days, 5 days and W was supposed to find a new house and buy it. I did not like 9 and 5 and wanted 50/50. But caved to get things moving. Kids would stay in matrimonial house and parents would move. I started taking work away from home to give her some space and try the 9day and 5 day thing. On my days with the kids she would stay around. As I did not mind as I want our kids to have both parents

3 mediation. W decided she did not want to do house thing. Told me that we needed to do something b/c she wanted space. I told her I was giving her space. But she has to take space herself if she wants it so bad. We decided that b/c she did not want to do the 2nd house that the 9 and 5 would be hourly. So for every 9 hours that she has kids I would have 5 hours. The day after Mediation. W told me the hourly thing was "retarded" and that she did not want to follow it. I mean while took more work away from home to give her space.

I worked away for 9 days. Mean while W is spewing at me about how we have to figure out who is moving. And basically saying she is going to throw all my stuff on the lawn. I would barely engage and that would get her spewing even more. I got back after my 9 days of work. For my 5 days with the kids. I told her my schedule and when I was going back to work. It ended up being that I would only have the kids for 4.5 days but it is what worked out the best with work schedule.

So W decided to come back a day early. So I had really 3 days with the kids by myself. The next little bit I will be working around home so we would should be doing the 9 hour 5 hour schedule. She did not want to do that and wanted me to find a place to live. I said if you want me to find a place to live and want to change what we agreed to in mediation that I believe
we should change the 9 and 5 schedule to 7 and 7. This started her spewing how she wants me out of the house. Threating to go to court and throw all my stuff out of the house and calling me a "prick".

When she got home. I took 2 older kids to hockey practice. I let her put kids to bed and started to watch a movie. She came into the same room and started to go through the kids Christmas presents. I was looking at the presents to see what she got them and she made a comment "what you staring at got something to say". I said "No just looking at what the kids got for Christmas.

After that she lighted up a bit. We started to talk about the deals she got on the presents and where she got them and what I got for the kids.

Then this is where it got confusing for me. She told me that she went bra shopping and that she was now a 32 "D". Direct quotes "That's Barbie sht" proud of her self. (These are the same boobs that I just paid for and agreed to about 6 months ago b/c I thought that doing that would maybe make her like me more? I have since learned my lesson) Then she proceeded to tell me how she got hit on while she was shopping. I said "that's good for you". Then she said he was like 16 so it took a lot of balls for him.

So I have no idea why she would be telling me these things. Trying to make me hurt b/c I am not "with her" anymore? Trying to get a rise out of me to make me the bad guy? How can she be so mad at me 1 hour earlier then start to tell me about this stuff?

[BigMac]

How can she have mood swings? Go from happy to sad to hurt to happy?

The emotions in her head are turbulent. So are her actions.

[zed]

Yah I get that BigMac. But I know she was trying to say those things about her being hit on etc. for a reason. I know you are not supposed to mind read. But It would be nice to know what train of thought she had to want to say those things out of the blue. It does hurt me when she says she was hit on or her bragging about her boobs. I try not to show it but I just want to tell her to keep it to herself

[jim0987]

Hi zed there are loads of perfectly plausible explanations for why she might say those things and unfortnately you'll unlikely to ever know, which is why its best not to think about it too much otherwise you can drive yourself nuts

the only thing you have to bear in mind is whether her talking about this stuff to you is something you're willing to accept?

[Vapo]

Zed, really do not try to make sense of it, because there is none to be made. One thing you can count on, you are nothing to her, not even a blip on her radar, a pesky cousin maybe...

[BigMac]

Zed: My STBX used to brag about that all the time when she got her fake new rack. The reality was that she was preparing to be single, and wanted me to thing her SMV (Sexual Market Value) had increased.

She was basically telegraphing that she was hotter then she was before, and felt she was more attractive then me. It's stupid girl games. Really stupid stuff.

Don't play into it, just ignore her. She wants a reaction to validate her. Don't give in to it. It won't work out.

[JCred]

It does hurt me when she says she was hit on or her bragging about her boobs. I try not to show it but I just want to tell her to keep it to herself

Zed.... I feel for you. I really do... Sometimes women are hard to understand, I agree.

You want to know what I really think here?....

You need to have a good old fashion argument. Do a little yelling at her back... Stand up for yourself..... say a couple of things that show her anger...

You ARE disengaged. It seems to me that your wife has felt for a long time that you are disengaged.

Do you know that I have heard more than a few times that a woman who lives with a man who shows little emotion and seems disengaged, would rather have a big old argument now and then with him than to live with a disengaged man?

Do you know women have admitted to wanting to argue with their man JUST to have some engagement from him?

Do you know that Michelle says in DR that conflict is NECESSARY in loving relationships?.. ( page 51, DR)

Do you know some people were brought up in homes where yelling and raising their voices during conflict is a way of life, but they STILL love each other and know no different...

She WANTS engagement.. I would even go so far as to say she wants to see some passion from you. (ANGER)(in WORDS)

such as......

Zed: Wife, I want to say something to you about the other night when we were talking about the kid's Christmas presents....

(your voice rising).... It PIS**ES me off(don't say hurts me.. say PIS**ES ME OFF) that you ___________________ about those F***ING Boobs I bought..... .

AND another thing.... It also PIS**ES me off...

rant and rave for a few minutes.. get some things off your chest.. let her yell back........

SOMETIMES those things are NEEDED.. You seem like the type always in control.. She wants to feel your PASSION.....

That's my take.. Don't let her yell and call you names and then think she will love you if you smile and take it.. Women don't respect men like that. Stand up to her and show her you have some passion about this...

(of course you will say you are sorry later) .. (maybe the next day, but let her chew on THAT for a few hours)

Just sayin.....

[zed]

Thanks Justin. She has mentioned before that there is no passion. I just always think that I should be the better person and let it slip off my back and pretend it doesn't bother me.

[zed]

So Stuff just got real bad. Last time in mediation we had a verbal agreement that while I'm working around home I would have the kids during the night. Day after mediation W decided once again that she did not want to follow that.

Now 3 nights ago W left with the kids. I have not see them since. I texted her tonight "you bringing the kids home soon or did you kidnap them forever". About 1/2 hour later I get a call from her father. This is a guy I always respected and worked hard just like me. If anything I thought her might understand my situation. He proceeds to rip me one. Saying I basically kicked my kids out of the house. Going on about how I a wrong for wanting to stay in the house and fight for 50/50 with the kids.

Now I just want to rip the W a new one. Tell everyone in the small town we live in about how she took the kids. How I just bought her new boobs. I want to cancel all her credit cards and her cell phone I pay for her. Next time I see the kids I want to ask them where they were b/c mommy took them and did not tell me where they were. Or next time I get them I will take them away for a long time.

But I am a good person. And I do not think this is the right thing to do..........

[zed]

I am fuming mad right now. I have always felt like I have been the nice person and husband. And this btch just keeps walking all over me.
I'm going to wreck this girl....

[Wonka]

Zed,

Calm down....you basically threatened W which elicited a phone call from FIL. Not surprising at all.

Get your center back and focus on your goals. Be the better person that you are capable of and much more. What needs to happen is for you to cool off for the next 48-72 hours so the dust can settle down.

Taking a scorched Earth approach isn't going to help matters at all. Drop the self-righteous chit. For real. For your own sake.

[Wonka]

I am fuming mad right now. I have always felt like I have been the nice person and husband. And this btch just keeps walking all over me.
I'm going to wreck this girl....

Calm the F@CK down!!

[zed]

I know Wonka. I know I should calm down. It's just so hard. I really feel like I keep getting kicked in the nuts. And all i'm supposed to do is let it slide off my back. And pretend if doesn't bother me? I don't want to be a bad, mean, or revengeful person. But when is enough....enough?

It feels like there are only 2 ways to end this. Fight back or give up on my kids and walk away from everything.

I wish I would be able to sleep tonight. But I doesn't look like that will happen no matter how hard I try

[zed]

And to think. I spent 2 hours on a slide show for her today for her Christmas present "from the kids"

Oh sh#t....FML

[Wonka]

And to think. I spent 2 hours on a slide show for her today for her Christmas present "from the kids"

Drop the slide show for it will be seen as pursuit. I would suggest that the kids make something for their Mom such as a homemade picture frame from Michael's arts and craft store. Keep it real and simple. Mothers really love homemade gifts from the kiddos.

[Wonka]

Checking in on you, Zed. How are you doing? I do hope that you've cooled off by now.

[zed]

Yah Thx Wonka for everything. I do really appreciate it. Took some sleeping pills went to sleep. Still really angry, mad, sad. All the emotional gauntlet. Emailed my lawyer last night. She will hopefully get back to me this morning so that I know how I should proceed.

[Wonka]

Lawyer? Uh-oh...for what reason, if you don't mind me asking you.

Give this some more time to let everyone cool off then you can reach out to W to arrange for the next kiddo switcheroo. You MUST keep your head screwed on tightly for you'll need all of your wits going forward. I hope this is a temporary lapse.

Chin up, buddy.

[zed]

Lawyer b/c W does not want to honour any verbal or parental agreement we made at mediation. Now she took the kids when it was supposed to be my time and will not bring them back. I have to talk to lawyer about trying to see my kids and get a court appointed custody agreement.

Or do you really think I should just leave her have the kids when every she please's?

[zed]

I did text her this morning "I know you are mad/angry at me. But don't take this out on the kids. If you look past all the anger you may see the hourly schedule might be good. The kids would get to see both parent's every day. Bring the kids home W.

Hourly schedule was what we last agreed to in mediation. Day after mediation she said she that it was "retarded". She would have the kids during the day and I would have them most nights when I would get home from work for 2-3 hours. She had the option of leaving the house or staying while I had kids

[Wonka]

Zed,

I agree that it is important to discuss some legal options with your L. What I am wondering here is if this is the first time your W has taken the kids? If yes, then I would wait a bit longer to allow everyone to cool off. Then you can try to reach out to W in a few days. If she shows any difficult or uncooperative behaviors, then fight for 50-50 custody.

You need to be prepared for some serious blow back from W on this.

Are you?

This doesn't mean that you have to be a jerk about it. Strong, firm and steady.

[Wonka]

I would have advised you NOT to have sent that text or any communication to W. This will set you back. STFU!!

[Wonka]

I did text her this morning "I know you are mad/angry at me. But don't take this out on the kids. If you look past all the anger you may see the hourly schedule might be good. The kids would get to see both parent's every day. Bring the kids home W.

STFU! STFU!

You argued with W and ordered her around. That will NOT help your case at all.

No more communicating with W for several days. Seriously.

[zed]

Wonka I know you are try to help so don't take this as an attack toward you just some questions. You have seen this more than me. No communication? What if she doesn't decide to bring kids back for Christmas? Am I supposed to sit and wait until she decides to bring kids home? I can't tell her that I want to talk to kids?

[Wonka]

Zed,

Aren't you listening at all? I recommend that you cool it and give this a few days before you reach out to W. It has only been one day.

Please keep us posted on what your L says.

[zed]

Okay. thx. I am still worried as this will be the 4th day that she has taken the kids and I was supposed to see them. I will let it be. And Let everyone know when I hear from lawyer.

Thx again Wonka. I really do appreciate your help

[zed]

W has been gone for 4 days with kids and did not tell me she was taking them. I found out they we staying at her parents. My oldest D has a Christmas concert today. I just got a TM from W "We will be at the house tonight to get ready for Xmas concert and stay the night"

Any thoughts on how I should handle this? I feel like saying something like this. "The kids are more than welcome to stay the night. But I hope you can respect my space at this time"

Hopeing someone has some input on this.
Thanks

[zed]

Well just got the heads up that I will be getting divorce papers in the next couple days. Merry Christmas to everyone

[zed]

Oh yah. By text. She couldn't even tell me to my face. The night of the kids Christmas concert. What a beauty.

[Vapo]

Sorry to hear Zed. Chin up and game face on!

DB all the way.

You are not alone mate!

[bravo61]

Praying for you.