An overwhelming sense of inadequacy and the associated nonsense that goes with it is something I've had to contend with for as long as I can remember. Its hyperactive at the moment.
Ive sent my IC an email basically saying don't let me avoid this issue any longer as I keep ducking it in our C sessions.
I'll find some positive steps to work through it and hopefully rid me if it for good.
Both mid 30s, 2 young kids BD 7sep14 XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1 D paperwork in progress
Have you explored the Asperger's thing any more? Because that is something that comes with the territory; a pervasive sense of inadequacy or somehow being "off".
For me, a lot of rejection, a lot of learning the hard way. But there is some over-compensation there, definitely.
Just food for thought. And we all gotta eat.
--(G)GGG
Me 54 Him 63 M 23 T 29 0 Kids Funny Farm of Rescues 12/12 OW-- 5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied 9/13 Proof OW: ENDED 2/14 Got D papers on my BD I kicked him out for my sanity 9/14 He wants to "talk"?
I go out for the evening and I miss the action in Jims thread. This equally applies to me GG so I'll interpret masterful as in charge of own destiny instead.
GG you are now Great Gifts!
Vanilla
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
I have a friend who never gets any women to stay with him. You wanna know why?
It's because his idea of getting closer to someone involves him constantly putting himself down. I don't know if it's because he wants reassurance that he's not all the awful things he says about himself or what.
But the effect is, why would any woman want to be with someone who keeps telling them what a total loser he is?
He put's himself down because it feels like a way to open up without risking rejection. He has a self image that he is unlikeable/unworthy/inadequate and therefore he assumes that's what everyone else thinks and is just pretending otherwise.
To say anything positive feels dishonest and triggers feelings of guilt and shame in himself which are such powerful feelings reflecting a whole lifetime of hurt that he would do ANYTHING to avoid engaging with those feelings directly. If he is forced to then it triggers an emotional panic which is eased by DOING something else - a distraction
Why does it come up at all. Well sometimes its because he is trying to build a connection, more often its because he feels some kind of emotional discomfort which triggers his shame cycle. 'I dont like this and im here so I don't like me and nor must anyone else'.
It might seem like he is looking for either reassurance or validation of his own self beliefs of inadequacy and in a lot of ways he is but that misses the fundamental of what he is saying which at its core is
'Im scared'
Probably closely followed by
'please tell me what to do'
Underneath all of which is 'I'm lonely'
Men are taught that these ^^^^ feelings are not OK to have let alone express openly.
What's the right reaction to this (in an intimate relationship)? My feeling is that its not to reassure (that feeds the neediness) and its not to agree (feeds the underlying shame) but instead to connect on a level of trust as in
'I'm scared too but that's OK because we can be scared together'
It would be better that he didn't do this at all but there is a serious wall of defences that needs to come down brick by brick - connection by connection. And until he does that for himself he will keep unintentionally pushing people away because We all agree that this behaviour is not attractive.
No first person / third person projection there at all.....
Both mid 30s, 2 young kids BD 7sep14 XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1 D paperwork in progress
'I'm scared too but that's OK because we can be scared together'
Are you saying this is how you need your W to respond to your insecurity issues?
What if she can't? At this point in your M, I don't believe she respects you enough to truthfully tell you those words. The lack of respect affects her level of attraction. So if the W can't or won't do what you suggested, what does a man with your issue do?
I realize women are taught to be self reliant, but for the most part, I personally believe the nature of a woman is to seek a mate that is stronger than she is. Not just physically stronger, but an inner strength and maturity that makes "her" feel secure and take care of her children. Maybe b/c she associates him with be her protector, provider, leader of her family.
Sure, there are crisis in life that causes fear in everyone. There are tragedies, wars, diseases, etc., that scare the mess out of very strong men. There are financial ruins, and other things we could name that would justify fear, inadaquances, and insecurity. A couple who has a solid R can face these things scared together.......but I still think in her heart she is leaning on him to lead his family, b/c of her female nature. And this is just my opinion, and other women may disagree.
You have referred several times to the "shame". What is your shame? Who causes you to feel this shame? And why are you in IC, if not for this issue?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Jim, yours was very thoughtful and I think this is very much the situation with my friend. It's the only way he knows.
However, as Sandi said, women want a man who is stronger than she is. That "inner strength and maturity", an emotional strength/confidence, is what many of us find most attractive.
You know, we can "feel" however we feel inside without broadcasting to everyone in our circle. As we work on expressing ourselves differently, it often happens that we start to feel differently too.
But thanks, Jim, for taking the time to explain this. I hadn't thought of it that way and it gives insight into my lonely pal. Who, for what it's worth, I've tried to tell over and over that this is an unattractive habit, that even I don't like it as his friend.
Why would I want to hang with such a self-described "loser"?
But he doesn't get it, or can't. The end result is he adds in another unattractive quality, and that one is blaming the women who dump him for being b*tches, menopausal shrews, or worse, he ends up getting so angry at them for something they said that hurt his incredibly sensitive feelings, that he says/does something to them that is so callous that word gets around to other people who know them.
I have tried to intervene on his behalf more than once with female acquaintances of mine who dated him. I knew he wasn't the jerk he acted like.
As his "friend" I wasn't threatening, I guess, so I saw a different side. But his "Poor me" and constant jokes at his own expense came up pretty often even with me. I could see what that would drive the ladies away.
And, he also got a bit nasty if his feelings got hurt, which they did often for what always sounded like uneventful "reasons". He saw criticism where there was none, and lashed out.
Now there are perfectly nice women he dated who refuse to speak to him, he's still alone, still putting himself down and complaining, and get this--HE IS A NICE GUY.
It's sad really. He can't change it for whatever reason.
I hope if this does apply to you that you follow Sandi's suggestion and address it in therapy.
It will definitely make you more attractive, by men and women. And, I'm learning, good friends are forever while spouses come and go....
Never thought I'd say THAT, but it's my reality now!
You all have a fan-floogly-tastic day!
---(G)GGG
Me 54 Him 63 M 23 T 29 0 Kids Funny Farm of Rescues 12/12 OW-- 5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied 9/13 Proof OW: ENDED 2/14 Got D papers on my BD I kicked him out for my sanity 9/14 He wants to "talk"?
Should first of say this is just my views so no issue if people disagree.
Maybe another, better way to phrase it would be 'its OK, I understand and I trust you to look after me and you can trust me to take care of you'
As with all things it's as much about actions as words. It can be said but the actions need to accompany it.
Depending on their background, men are taught not to show weakness, we are told its not attractive or that we've got nothing really to be scared of but that need for belonging is evolutionarily ingrained in us.
To be told that's not OK is like saying you are not OK and that kind of suppression brings out all kinds of unintended consequences like major insecurity. For others its anger, ultra competitive, fixation on a hobby, addiction, etc....
Not right, not an excuse but just is.
For me, I do need to address it but I've got very practiced at avoiding it - more concerted effort required and I've told my IC to not let me get away with it.
Catching the behaviour helps but the beliefs are still there. But overcoming this is probably the most important thing I will ever do for me (and by virtue my kids)
In my R, no I don't think my W can say anything like this because she doesn't respect me and equally doesn't understand this in the same way I didn't understand what she was really saying.
She heard me negatively compare so often and that can easily have led to 'well if everyone else is so much better, why am I with this loser'
So Sandi comments are right, I should - show my strength in the things I'm strong at - find some real emotional strength - stop saying negative things - try to create an environment in which she can trust me (difficult tightrope of open vs interesting and mysterious) - 180 my internal propaganda
AND I have to find an effective and attractive way to be open and vulnerable rather than surpressing
It is fine to show vulnerability. That does not mean "weakness". I think people confuse the two.
It is not "weak" to have emotions like fear, insecurity, worry, hurt.
This is an issue with my H.
What IS "weak" is not dealing with those emotions in a constructive manner.
Being VULNERABLE means being OK with not being perfect, with showing your flaws, sharing the deepest parts of yourself with someone else, warts and all. And having the guts to identify and work on the "flaws" that are holding you back from being a better person.
That is not weak because it TAKES COURAGE. There is a fear of rejection that must be overcome. That's the scary part.
But hiding behind self-deprecating remarks, putting yourself down to get reassurance or beat others to the punch (because you think that's their perception when it probably isn't), that does cause others to feel uncomfortable around you.
We all get scared, feel emotional hurt. It's fine to have and express those feelings. But it's not necessarily a woman's job to help you avoid feeling like that.
You have to own your own emotions and not expect other people to make the bad ones go away, or worse, keep you from feeling them at all. (I feel like I'm talking to my H now.)
Slamming yourself as being "less than" is actually quite manipulative. It's not an authentic way of dealing with someone else because you have an agenda:
Make me feel secure. Make me feel wanted. Make me feel special. Make me feel accepted.
Making you feel.... that's not their job. And that might be a big stumbling block in any relationship.
I'm not sure we're 100% on the same page here as to how you think this relates to you and your wife. Perhaps you could clarify that a bit?
--(G)GGG
Me 54 Him 63 M 23 T 29 0 Kids Funny Farm of Rescues 12/12 OW-- 5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied 9/13 Proof OW: ENDED 2/14 Got D papers on my BD I kicked him out for my sanity 9/14 He wants to "talk"?
Weakness and vulnerability get confused. Too often we reach the conclusion that showing emotions (fear, sadness, loneliness) is weakness. So we learn to surpress or mask how we feel and it gets misrepresented or misinterpreted or both.
Overtime doesn't deal with emotions can become can't deal with emotions. Or any attempt to do so brings with all the baggage to that point so your now dealing with every 'elephant' you've ever even imagined not just the one in front of you.
For me that's when my flight reflex kicks in, because the ain't no way I can fight all of that, especially if I'm caught of guard.
The negative comments are also part distraction. Like you said, to beat them to the punch and control the agenda. The underlying message of fear and loneliness is the same though. It puts a lot of pressure on the other person.
In my case the underlying emotional demand I was projecting through self deprecating comments and general negativity was
'Make me feel wanted.'
I felt scared, lonely and inadequate because my W wasn't happy. In reality she wasn't happy most probably because of stress and grief and kids etc. And her own loneliness (no friends or family nearby and the others didnt make much effort)
But my response was to make this demand in effect saying 'I know your hurting but pay attention to me'
Add to this the flight reflex i described, a stress reaction of must do something and some generally poor but not untypical decision making and you get a sense of why my W might feel that I'm too 'weak' to support and protect her.
I can speculate on what my W was thinking but Im pretty sure she had me wrong so I'm going to assume I've got her wrong (never though she would have an affair for starters).
I can say that it felt like I was being made responsible for all of her happiness, but even if I wasn't I probably assumed that responsibility anyway (it is all about me after all).
It all sounds a bit like I saying the whole thing is my fault but there are somethings I would want her to change in the future and these include: - communicating expectations - assume my intent is loving and positive rather than negative - not shutting down if my immediate reactions aren't what she expected/wanted - being open and honest with me - not shutting down/dismissing my efforts to engage in any meaningful R conversation - getting her anxiety that something terrible will happen to the kids under control.
In the same way that I negatively compare and take things as rejection. I think that she has a similar issue with regard to trust and feeling judged. But this is a guess.
Toward the end she took my negative comparisons of me against others as a sign I didn't trust her rather than the reality of 'I don't like me'
Does that make sense or had you figured different?
Both mid 30s, 2 young kids BD 7sep14 XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1 D paperwork in progress
