Jefe - Climbing out of the mire - #8

[Jefe]

Old Thread: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2515379#Post2515379

Wanting to begin the journey of getting out of this boggy mire that space between my ears has become.

[twinmom]

Ok, so even though everyone has told you to GAL you just aren't doing it. Soooooooooooooo, how do you spend your day? What is your routine?
I had assumed your wife might be the breadwinner because I don't remember you posting about work. Do you work full time?

When my H was living with OW I kept myself so busy as soon as the kids went to bed I crashed too (I was also pregnant with 4 kids so tired anyway) but my point is I was go go go every second so that 1.) I didn't think about H as much 2.) Could sleep at night.

For me I coupon, like the insane spend $1 get $100 worth of stuff and lots of times the store pays me, lol.... well I amped this up even more, I started making $$$ with apps on my phone, I started doing mystery shops (I now make $200/wk just doing mystery shops)

Point being I took something I was already good at and threw myself head first into it and expanded to new things. And making money was nice as I am a stay at home mom. When H left I was working part time but my profession is all contract work and I knew it was ending quickly so I was going back to being a stay at home mom and would need $$$$$ and something to keep me busy.

I KNOW just chillin with the kids will make your mind go directly to your wife. The kids remind you of the family that doesn't exist right now. This is the hardest thing for me NOW. You need something besides the kids to occupy the space between your ears.

Anything you are slightly interested in? Become an expert.....
I SERIOUSLY considered going back to school to get my master's degree...... then realized I would be attempting this with 5 kids and didn't want to overwhelm myself. But for you maybe advancing your career would be an ego boost for you which I think you are in need of.

[Jefe]

Moved from old thread:

I agree with, Peter.

Your controlling tendencies are showing, big time and yet you do nothing to control what you can control.

Do you know what income she has? How can you make that equitable? Do you want a S agreement? You need a visitation agreement, or rather your kids need a visitation agreement.

You're overwhelmed because you're trying to fix this and you can't, that's a given. You're like the little Dutch boy trying to plug all the holes.

Stop!

Let go and Let God. Remember that one?

You made me cry! I LOVE the little Dutch boy story, my great grandmother had that book at her house and every time I would go there she would read it to me. He was "just big enough" (I am very small) when she passed away she left this book to me. It has such special meaning :-)

Sorry to hijack!

I agree with, Peter.

Your controlling tendencies are showing, big time and yet you do nothing to control what you can control.

Do you know what income she has? How can you make that equitable? Do you want a S agreement? You need a visitation agreement, or rather your kids need a visitation agreement.

You're overwhelmed because you're trying to fix this and you can't, that's a given. You're like the little Dutch boy trying to plug all the holes.

Stop!

Let go and Let God. Remember that one?

[Jefe]

Twin, I will answer your questions tonight because I want to take time and think before I answer. Thank you for sticking with me. I value that.


Labug,

Yes, I know perfectly what income she has. I have no clue how to make it any more equitable than I already have with-out being controlling about it, and I refuse to do that. What this separation has taught me about our money is that I'm no better than she is when it comes to the mishandling of it. I have finally seen that our finincial strength worked best together as a team and not because I'm am so financially brilliant. (amends needed here)

Do I want a S agreement? Not at all. As a matter of fact along the lines of Letting go and letting God, the mediator meeting we had scheduled for next week got moved to next year by some unforeseen events with the mediator. That's God at work right there. I do agree we need to work out some sort of visitation agreement for the girls sake if nothing else, though.

Yes, I am a fixer. No I can't fix this. Yes I am overwhelmed. Yes I need to focus on what I can control. No I don't exactly know how to do that. Yes, I'm willing to learn.

And, BTW, The Little Dutch Boy has very special meaning to me too. I need to find my/a copy so I can start reading it to my girls.

[SunnyB]

Do I want a S agreement? Not at all. As a matter of fact along the lines of Letting go and letting God, the mediator meeting we had scheduled for next week got moved to next year by some unforeseen events with the mediator. That's God at work right there. I do agree we need to work out some sort of visitation agreement for the girls sake if nothing else, though.

Jefe, honey, take this with love. You don't want S agreement because you don't want to be S, and that's sticking your head in the sand. Believe me, this is coming from the Queen Ostrich, I get it. But I have a S agreement and there's zero legal about it, but it means H and I discussed things ahead of time, finances, parenting, length of S, etc. etc. I'm not flying by the seat of my pants, and the drama is running low. Wouldn't that be a breath of fresh air in your life?

Having a S agreement does NOT mean that I haven't let go. I don't know what will happen after the S. God knows. He hasn't shown me yet, but it's going to be something good, I swear. The other day Maybell said she was no longer praying for reconciliation. I gave that up a long time ago. What I pray, multiple times a day, is, in part: God, thank you that your gracious hand of favor is upon me. Thank you for where you have put me right now. I'm trusting in you, my future is in your hands....."

Don't link a S agreement with lack of faith. They aren't the same.

[Jefe]

Interesting. The wife took time out of her day to drive over here and bring me a birthday card.

I had assumed your wife might be the breadwinner because I don't remember you posting about work. Do you work full time?

I have been self employed for the last 16 months. The business was supposed to be a "we" thing and my wife even cut back on her hours in late June to jump into the business which never really manifested itself. In the first month or so of the of the separation she was 100% engaged in the family and I really thought we'd be back together by mid Sept. She would help with the girls anytime I needed her to so I could work. By the end of Sept she she had completely abandoned the kids meaning I needed to squeeze my jobs in between 8:30-3:30 so I could pick up the girls. Before the S I had more work than I knew what to do with and the business was growing well. Since, I do enough to keep us clothed, fed and other basics. The time factor along with my PMA and other factors have really eaten into my earning ability. Not to mention my heart is just not in it anymore. So trying to find a full time gig that works around family, again.

Soooooooooooooo, how do you spend your day? What is your routine?
When my H was living with OW I kept myself so busy as soon as the kids went to bed I crashed too (I was also pregnant with 4 kids so tired anyway) but my point is I was go go go every second so that 1.) I didn't think about H as much 2.) Could sleep at night.

5:30AM Up and get myself ready, load the truck, get lunches made and kids fed & ready and out the door by 7. Their school is a charter school so it's about 30 minutes away then we have to wait in line for drop off another 10-15 minutes.
Then I work during the middle
3:30ish I need to be at the school, in line to pick them up.
4:30 we are home, snacks made, clothes changed, unwind. 1 hour of TV for the girls invoice and computer time for dad.
5:30-7:00 is homework, prepare dinner, eat. (We eat at the table as a family) etc.
7:00-8:00 is snuggle time or game time, or bath time or a combination of all 3.
Girls in bed no later than 8:30.
9:00 - I drop - Clean the house, do laundry, do dishes, clean out truck/trailer, check in on Grandmother and tend to her needs, practice for up-coming worship schedule, etc, etc.

Boring and not much GAL.

I KNOW just chillin with the kids will make your mind go directly to your wife. The kids remind you of the family that doesn't exist right now. This is the hardest thing for me NOW. You need something besides the kids to occupy the space between your ears.

Yes! They remind me indirectly and directly. My 5 year old asks every day, "What time is mommy coming home?" We've explained it to her and she asks every day.

This just scratched the surface and doesn't cover all of your post, but it's what I got right now.

[Jefe]

Jefe, honey, take this with love. You don't want S agreement because you don't want to be S, and that's sticking your head in the sand. Believe me, this is coming from the Queen Ostrich, I get it. But I have a S agreement and there's zero legal about it, but it means H and I discussed things ahead of time, finances, parenting, length of S, etc. etc. I'm not flying by the seat of my pants, and the drama is running low. Wouldn't that be a breath of fresh air in your life?

Having a S agreement does NOT mean that I haven't let go. I don't know what will happen after the S. God knows. He hasn't shown me yet, but it's going to be something good, I swear. The other day Maybell said she was no longer praying for reconciliation. I gave that up a long time ago. What I pray, multiple times a day, is, in part: God, thank you that your gracious hand of favor is upon me. Thank you for where you have put me right now. I'm trusting in you, my future is in your hands....."

Don't link a S agreement with lack of faith. They aren't the same.

I know, Rpp. I'm trying.

Oh, and BTW. You look good today, babe.

[SunnyB]

Oh, and BTW. You look good today, babe.

Why, thank you. As a matter of fact, I do . D12 has a chorus performance tonight and I look nice. I have no clue if H will show, he hasn't chosen to give me notice, but fact is, I don't care.

[twinmom]

Jefe...... in the middle of cooking dinner.... rocking out to Pandora.... Wilson Phillips "hold on" Google the lyrics... I don't have time to post now, will get back to you later. I have a few suggestions for you

[Hope414]

Hi Jefe,

Again, I have to break with some of the advice given by others. I strongly encourage you not do anything making you uncomfortable.

If you are not comfortable with a separation agreement then do not participate. There doesn't appear to be a legal reason for the document so it seems mostly ceremonial.

When making decisions ask yourself the following:

Can I live with the decision I am making if the worst-case scenario occurs?

And I want you to truly consider the worst-case scenario with every decision. It will help you get clarity.

For example (and I give this example because I am pretty confident this will not happen) you want to take a drink tonight. Are you prepared to live with the worst-case scenario? The worst-case scenario is this drink triggers the addictive mechanism in your brain and you can never stop drinking ever again. You end up losing your business, your children and any chance you will ever have with your wife. You are despondent, get in your truck, drive to the liquor store, and end up running over a child. You go to jail for vehicular manslaughter.

This is the worst-case scenario. That one drink had meaning. It is no longer a drink...it was the rest of your life.

I know you understand this because this is what is taught in recovery. Defining consequences of rash behavior.

So when making decisions right now...use the same process. Consider everything in light of the worst-case scenario instead of the best-case scenario.

I know you are hurt. Anyone in your shoes would be hurt right now.

The important thing is to stay focused while dealing with your hurt.

Hang in there. I know I've said it before but you really are doing better than you think you are.

[twinmom]

Ok, you need to get your mind off your wife even for 45 minutes a day... Ever try blasting some music while getting ready/cooking? I HIGHLY suggest non church music....

I graduated in 2000 and have fond memories of music from the 90's and early 2000's Pandora blasting the 90's hits always puts me in a great mood and makes me forget how stressful my life really is. May I suggest some Everclear and Sublime?

Have you started a workout routine? My go to activity when I can't get an image of OW and H out of my head is a super hard workout with music so loud I can't think about anything but the pain my body is feeling from pushing it to the edge. Then a smoke and shot of Goose chilled with a lemon slice......

My point is change your routines and make new ones that take your mind off of being alone.

[SunnyB]

5:30AM Up and get myself ready, load the truck, get lunches made and kids fed & ready and out the door by 7. Their school is a charter school so it's about 30 minutes away then we have to wait in line for drop off another 10-15 minutes.
Then I work during the middle
3:30ish I need to be at the school, in line to pick them up.
4:30 we are home, snacks made, clothes changed, unwind. 1 hour of TV for the girls invoice and computer time for dad.
5:30-7:00 is homework, prepare dinner, eat. (We eat at the table as a family) etc.
7:00-8:00 is snuggle time or game time, or bath time or a combination of all 3.
Girls in bed no later than 8:30.
9:00 - I drop - Clean the house, do laundry, do dishes, clean out truck/trailer, check in on Grandmother and tend to her needs, practice for up-coming worship schedule, etc, etc.

Boring and not much GAL.

Happy Birthday!

My day isn't all that different from yours. Up at 5:30, dropping in bed at 10:00pm on a really good day. Work, kids, house in between. I do have an advantage because mine are older and don't need supervision when we're at home, I can leave them to do their own hw, get their own shower, etc. But the place I really GAL is when H takes D12, according to our PARENTING SCHEDULE. Jefe, I'm going to keep harping on this one. You have to put something in place if at all possible. It does not have to be 50/50, it can be anything that works for you and W, just something you can count on. Our sharing right now is 65/35 for D12, 100/0 for D16. But it's something I can count on, and that's been critical to my pulling myself together lately.

[SunnyB]

If you are not comfortable with a separation agreement then do not participate. There doesn't appear to be a legal reason for the document so it seems mostly ceremonial.

Hope, can I ask a sincere question? Why would a S agreement not be helpful to Jefe? I understood your worst-case decision-making matrix, and, having been in a close relationship with an alcoholic myself, understand it quite well. But, why must Jefe fly by the seat of his pants? Why can't decisions be made that apply to longer than today? For instance, he and W decide that W picks up the girls at noon every Sunday and drops them off at school every Monday? How is deciding that weekly more advantageous than deciding it applies to the next six weeks?

There is no legal S in my state. H and I have a (non-legal) S agreement that spells out the length of the S, whether we can date, how finances are handled, and a parenting schedule, among other things. It's not ceremonial, it's practical.

I admire the advice you give on the boards, and look forward to your thoughts on this.

[Hope414]

If you are not comfortable with a separation agreement then do not participate. There doesn't appear to be a legal reason for the document so it seems mostly ceremonial.

Hope, can I ask a sincere question? Why would a S agreement not be helpful to Jefe? I understood your worst-case decision-making matrix, and, having been in a close relationship with an alcoholic myself, understand it quite well. But, why must Jefe fly by the seat of his pants? Why can't decisions be made that apply to longer than today? For instance, he and W decide that W picks up the girls at noon every Sunday and drops them off at school every Monday? How is deciding that weekly more advantageous than deciding it applies to the next six weeks?

There is no legal S in my state. H and I have a (non-legal) S agreement that spells out the length of the S, whether we can date, how finances are handled, and a parenting schedule, among other things. It's not ceremonial, it's practical.

I admire the advice you give on the boards, and look forward to your thoughts on this.

I don't want to give the impression I am against separation agreements. In most cases I fully support them. They serve a purpose and are needed especially in situations when you are dealing with a punitive or combative spouse.

If Jefe was the person wanting the separation agreement I would support it.

My caution to Jefe is to avoid doing anything he is uncomfortable with. His wife continually forces him into situations where he feels he must make choices. (Sorry Jefe I don't want to talk about you as if you are not in the room.)

Jefe doesn't have to make choices when a choice is not necessary.

In this case they have a workable situation so a formal agreement isn't necessary. If, however, Jefe feels he needs something legal so that he can have more control in the situation I encourage this.

The issue is keeping control of the situation and not allowing your spouse to manipulate you into believing you are doing something as a team when, in reality, you felt bullied into the decision.

[SunnyB]

Jefe, how's it going today?

[Jefe]

I'm ok. How about you?

[SunnyB]

I am having a good day. Wishing you one as well.

[Jefe]

I think I just screwed this all up. I want to express the exchange that just happened but I am having a difficult time in even grasping it all enough to formulate a cognitive sentence about it all.

The harder I pray some days the harder it seems like it gets. I just don't understand.

[PeterV2]

Jefe, you need to detach from your W. She has too much sway over your emotions. Take a deep breath and focus on music. Stop thinking about W. It's like having a tiger by the tail. Very unpredictable and dangerous. Let go of the tiger's tail and walk away for a while. Don't worry about what your W is doing. She has her own row to hoe. And although it may seem like she's having a good time and being footloose and carefree, the truth is that she is just as much in turmoil as you are. Maybe more so, as she is the one in a bad place.

You're in a better place, but you cannot let her turmoil influence your state of mind. That's a tough order to fill, but you have to let it go. Focus on yourself and your family without her. Time is needed by both of you to heal. And you can only heal yourself. You have no control or power over her. You barely have control of yourself. Work on that first.

Peace be with you.

[Jefe]

Thank you Peter. You are correct as usual.

I'm not as emotionally damaged by this as in weeks past, just more angry at myself for allowing myself to fall into old patterns and habits and engaging in the same old dance.

[Sotto]

Hi Jefe - praying hard sounds like being attached. Just let go for now. Let her be.

Remember, you don't have to be tethered to her boat, whirling around at sea. You can be the lighthouse. You see the boat. It tosses about, but doesn't pull you with it. But you are there, solid & strong on the headland, bedded in the rock. The boat can see you.

Don't feel angry with yourself, but learn for next time, and do it differently.

Toots :-)

[labug]

Yes, let go. Believe that her life is hers to live. It may not be what you'd choose but it's not for you to choose. YOu made your won wacky choices in the past.

Sometimes order does come from chaos.

[UpperCu]

Jefe, what are your plans for Christmas and New Years?

Anything else new in the pipeline for the next few months?

[Jefe]

We, the girls and I, have a Cristmas party to go to tonight and we have one next Friday as well. Besides that, I have no plans for New Years or Christmas and I'm not particularly looking forward to either. Any arrangement we come up with, somebody looses. And the kids loose no matter what the arrangement. But it's out of my control and I just have to accept it for what it is.

Maybe I'm too emotionally attached, maybe I'm just plain mentally I'll. Maybe I'm just too selfish. I just don't know.

Nothing new in the pipeline other that trying to change my employment situation to something a little more predictable and stable. I understand this is largely my fault and this may be the only thing I have control over at the moment but I feel just so hopeless. The future looks so uncertain and scary. This too shall pass. The past 30 days have just really taken a toll on my PMA. I look back to 60 days ago and I think I was functioning a lot better. I could be wrong, though. It wouldn't be the first time.

Detach seems to be the word for the week. I'm working on it.

For some reason in my head I feel like if I detach it means I don't care. I get that this is crazy thought, but it's there in my head none the less.

One of the topics we discussed last night was happiness. She doesn't understand why everyone isn't concerned with her happiness and why we can't understand that if she is happy the kids will be happier.

She's right. I don't understand.

Getting past the holidays and the funeral will a monumental achievement for me.

[labug]

But it's out of my control and I just have to accept it for what it is.

Don't let the "out of your control" truism absolve you of all responsibility. We all have to accept where we are and there's always someone who has it worse.

It is in your control to make the best of the hand you've been dealt. If you live with the belief that W is ruining things for your kids, that's the message they'll get.

You have control over how you do this.

[labug]

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...555#Post2059555

When I read your posts for some reason I think of Busto. I've had this saved in my favorites forever. I'm not sure (it's been a long time since I've read it) but I think it must relate to your story in some ways. His ability to detach, even when he didn't want to, is
instructive.

[labug]

This is after he and W reconciled, a summary if you will:

I did the usual of I think many people of overpursuing at the beginning, pleading, groveling, apologizing (and very innocuous things come across as pursuit).

Once I regained my equilibrium and found DB and the community on here, I tried to do aspects of LRT (which really is respecting and listening to your partner's decision not to be in a relationship with you at that time), giving her tons of space, stopping pursuit, totally stopped calling her, texting her, etc, and working on myself physically, emotionally, spiritually.

We had a fair amount of interaction in the context of our kids (perhaps too much?), but whenever SHE would bring up the subject of our R or past hurts I had done to her, I would validate, validate, validate. If I did anything more than just validate (like broach the idea of reconciliation or going to a counselor or anything like that), it would consistently backfire. In my case, I learned that I really could not be the initiator of any of those ideas because it didn't work (in hindsight, probably because she experienced it as invalidating her feelings of anger and resentment and as selfish, self-serving and more of ignoring her feelings on my part). In the context of these interactions, I apologized for my role in the marriage and made it clear to her that I acknowledged ways in which I had effed up and hurt her, and that I was prepared to do my share of the work to repair things.

This time also gave me the opportunity to really listen to her in ways I had not before. To try to get to know my W again and hear or see messages she had been sending to me before that I had missed or ignored. To learn the way my W communicated.

Whenever she would initiate a contact with me, I would have as much of my mojo on as I could. Warm, friendly, funny, even flirty, the guy I was before things went south between us. Not sad, droopy dog. Not homebound separated guy. Not cuckolded guy letting his W have an EA or PA on his watch, time or money. Fun, attractive, busy (but NOT pursuing) guy. Undid bad habits, tasks I had left undone for months or years, I cranked out.

I read lots of self-help/relationship books and tried to get myself a life apart from her with my kids. I did months of individual counseling both for support and for self-change.

I think all of the above helped to stop the momentum of her pulling away from me. She calmed down, less anger, stopped proceeding towards divorce, started to see me less as SATAN, starting contact me to have meals with her and the kids (or outings with her and the kids). But, she still was not taking a step back TOWARDS the R, towards 1-on-1 time with me. She was happy with limbo, not fully divorcing from me, but having me sort of around in her life. I could not live like that anymore, however.

In my opinion, what ultimately really turned things around or brought things to a head, were my trying to move on after all of the above -- a hard core form of last resort technique I suppose (and it wasn't a technique, it really was where I was at). I told her I respected her decision not to work on our marriage, that I would have preferred to work things out, but that I understood that is not what she wanted, and I would move on with my life accordingly. No anger, no threats, no pleading, just I accept this is what you want, I agree with you, and I will live my life accordingly, I will be putting my things into order to file for divorce. Then I said that I would only contact her in the context of emergency issues concerning the kids and I would only respond to her for same (not punitively, just because that's what I felt I needed to move on).

And I went full no contact and kept living my life.

For several weeks of this, there was no contact at all from her.

Then, I noticed she would try to initiate contact -- either a call or a text, or when we would be transferring the kids, she would try to make conversation. One time I went to get them and she started trying to give me all these things (gifts?) to take with me -- 'here I got you these beers at the store and here are some jelly beans and here are this and that and here take this). Through all of this, I kept trying to stick to my boundary of not contacting her unless for crisis kid issues.

After maybe a total of 2-3 months of this NC, I was going to my college reunion and was going to drop the kids off with her before I left. I noticed she had seemed different on the phone (like really warm?). When I got to her place to give her the kids, she said come here and gave me a genuine, warm hug and told me to 'be safe and be good' I wonder if the 'be good' comment meant she was scared I was going to go hook up with someone at the reunion. Anyway, while I was at reunion, she was constantly calling and texting me, and I would respond flirtingly to them. The week I got back, she called me from her work in tears saying she missed me, she missed all our good times and she wanted her old life back and how could we do that.

A wise guy told me fast is slow and slow is fast and was that ever true in my case. My W was not only angry at me, she had lost respect for and attraction to me. I had to eliminate those negative feelings and curry positive feelings, but to do so without pursuing her and driving her away. Ultimately, SHE felt the loss when I was no longer a significant part of her life. That led to her second-guessing her own decision. It wasn't me convincing her of anything. In the end, she was the one who suggested we get back together. She was the one who suggested we go on a date. She was the one who asked me to find a therapist for us. The dynamic changed so that she was invested in the R and in me -- that she was beginning to pursue.

So:

1) Accept that you cannot control your partner, or her decision or her feelings or her actions. It's selfish to try and futile anyways.

2) Instead, respect your partner's decision -- if they say they are done, you're right the current situation isn't working for me either (I wouldn't want to share my W having an EA, right?) I accept that you are done, I will live my life accordingly (i.e., give them all the space they want and more, get your own life going, get out there and enjoy what you can, distract yourself until you genuinely enjoy it)

3) Recognize your faults in the R, own them, fix them, live them

4) Recognize your value, enhance it, flaunt it, ooze it

It's not up to you whether she comes back or not. It's her choice to come back or not, but try not to put your focus on that. Put your focus on bettering yourself as an individual and in relationships. On living the best life you can. You will succeed that way no matter her choice.
_________________________

[SunnyB]

Jefe, how was your weekend?

[CaliGuy]

Labug .. amazing post ... one I think many of us need to read/live. Thank you for a little shot in the arm ... and yeah Jefe .. I think you needed this one too.

Just a suggestion ... New Years .. I am telling you now .. find a spot for the kids, go out and do your own thing .. She will be and you are going to let it eat at you ... DON'T!!

GAL my friend ... you must do this its the only way you will detach ... she knows you are holding the rope and she will do whatever she likes ... you have to start doing your own thing.

[Jefe]

It was good, RPP. Thank you for asking.

Labug, thank you for the post. I went back and read a little of his threads I need to delve a little deeper.

CG, it's already gnawing at me. I'll get to work on some plans. May have to, to stay sane.


**MODERATORS, can someone please explain to me why HOPE414 is on mod?**

[SunnyB]

Jefe, you are quiet this week. What's going on?

[labug]

Yes, is it the funeral?

[Shakspr]

I'm still here, Jefe. Catching up on you and praying for you.

Find something good and just enjoy it. Go buy some new sticks, drummer boy.

Shakes

[Jefe]

Well, where to start.

Grandmother went into a physical rehab facility late Friday. We tried all last week to get it taken care of but there was mass confusion with the hospital, rehab, and medicare carrier. so it took all week to sort it out.
She called me Sunday night wanting me to pick her up and take her home but I told her I couldn't because I was working. She said never mind she would get the lady that comes by once a week at the house to help her come get her. I had to call the house keeper and tell her under no circumstances was she to "bust" my grandmother out of rehab. Besides, I highly doubt the staff would allow that to happen anyway. Grandma is not happy and I get it.

I took the girls to go visit Grandma (their Great-grandmother) on Monday. Grandma let me have it on many levels complaining about everything. She's been having some hallucinations lately and we're trying to figure out if its dementia or if it's infection related, but any way she was talking all sorts of craziness.

Any rate, point being, it's all my fault, in her eyes.

Long story cut short. I have been watching her elderly and unhealthy dog for the last several days. I let him out Tues before I picked up the girls, later that evening I went to let him in. He didn't come when I called him. I went in the yard and he just looked up at me and I reached down and picked him up and he had a heart attack or stroked out, but he died right in my arms.
I tell you. This is not something I need to deal with right now but yet here I am.
My concern is how far over the edge this will push my grandmother.

Aunt's Funeral is latter part of Jan, btw.

[zew]

Yeowsa.

One way to look at this is that you are compressing a lifetime's worth of grief into a few short months. So that must mean nothing but clear skies from here on out, right?

[Wet]

Jefe, I'm sorry for the horrible stretch you are going thru. let's see what's been thrown onto your shoulders - problems with your Grandmother being in rehab, your Grandmother's dog dying, Aunt's funeral in January, the holidays, and of course your W. Am I missing anything?

I have nothing to say, except that I am sorry that you are having to go thru this. Prayers are coming your way.

[Sotto]

Jefe, Im so sorry for all that is happening right now for you. There will indeed be blue skies ahead & these difficult times will make them seem bluer when they arrive.

We are all rooting for you Mate...((jefe))

[SunnyB]

Wow, Jefe, I am so sorry to hear the additional things going on in your life. Take a deep breath and know that you are doing the best you can for Grandma, don't take a word she says personally. I watched my Grandmother decline mentally for 10 years and I know how it can get to you.

Please do something nice for yourself today, even a tiny little something to remind you that there are people all over the world who care about you.

[wmwb123]

Sorry to hear that, Jefe. Hang in there.

[UpperCu]

Jefe, how are you doing?

Hope you're hanging in there buddy

You've had a rougher streak than most but you're still powering onward. Your strength has motivated me to keep up the good fight. I'm walking through it all with you every day my friend. Praying for you to see the light at the end of the dark tunnel soon.

[UpperCu]

Isaiah 41:10

fear not, for I am with you;         
be not dismayed, for I am your God;     
I will strengthen you, I will help you,         
I will uphold you with  
my righteous right hand.

[Hope414]

Jefe,

You've been taking a lot of blows. How are you handling all this? If you aren't posting no one can talk back.

[SunnyB]

Jefe, how was the weekend? I hope things are looking up for you.

[Jefe]

Thanks guys. I'm doing okay. I've popped in here a few times and have started to type something but then end up dumping it and leaving. I just don't feel like I have anything important or useful to say, sorry.

[SunnyB]

Jefe, don't think you have to say something profound. Lots of times I journal that nothing happened whatsoever. People are nice to me anyway, and it makes me feel better. We are here for you.

How's your grandma? Any interactions with your W? Everything with the girls going OK?

[Jefe]

Grandma is doing ok. However, her hallucinations are growing more frequent and more vivid by the day and we're still not sure why. We also are not sure if she could or even should come home for Christmas. There's a strong possibility she may never come "home".

My uncle crafted a beautiful plan/story for the death of the dog which completely removed me from the hot seat, so very thankful for that. She's taking it as well as she possibly could.

The kids are doing good. They still ebb and flow from could care less to crying at night missing having her home with us. But then again, don't we all?

The wife? Yeah, we swing all over the place too. She's back to finding silly reasons, ones that could wait, to call or text every day. Some days, I'm right on it. Others, well my phone has a neat feature where I can delay a text or send one a a specific time. That has worked well for me by being able to answer it right away but sending it 15-45 minutes later without forgetting. She did go to church yesterday, not to our church but another very poplar one nearby. Funny choice though, because they are even more stout on marriage and upholding vows than ours is. But I am very thankful that she went.

Am I detached?

No.

Can I go at least 45 minutes a day without thinking about her?
(As Twinmom suggested)

Sure.

Am I enjoying the holidays this year?

Not even close.

No one thing has robbed my joy, but the cumulative weight has become very difficult to carry some days.

And this too shall pass.

Thank you RPP for caring. The rest of you guys too.

[FunDad]

Hi Jefe,

Sounds like you are doing a bit better. I understand the joy being less this year for sure. There is no way around it, only through it.

My goal for the Holidays: "Dont' make it worse". That may seem odd, but it's very simple. I treat this holiday season the same as I would a disaster seen. Our guiding principle is that no matter what we do, just don't make it worse. Maybe this approach will help you establish a baseline also.

God Bless You Sir. :-)

FD

[SunnyB]

Jefe, I agree with FD, you do sound just a little better. I hope that's true. That's a pretty neat feature on your phone, smart of you to make use of that. What are you doing for Christmas Eve tonight?

[Sotto]

Hi Jefe

I think that's good advice from Fundad - just get through it and don't make it worse. I'm also thinking - hey, it's not much of a life if you don't have a few cr@ppy Xmases here and there! I feel I've been pretty lucky in my life and have mostly had nice times at Xmas. This year isn't nice, but hey-ho and on we go!

I don't feel too bad. I'm heading off to my parents for a couple of nights this pm, and we'll just have a quiet, no pressure Xmas.

Season's Greetings to you all, and chin up Jefe. You're doing really well, and your friends are all here for you buddy!

xx

[Jefe]

Jefe, I agree with FD, you do sound just a little better. I hope that's true. That's a pretty neat feature on your phone, smart of you to make use of that. What are you doing for Christmas Eve tonight?

Well, I don't feel like driving my truck into a bridge support today, that's a start, lol.

Yes, that feature has saved me for sure. That way I get to feel like I took care of it right away, but she sees that I'm not too eager or willing to be at her beck and call. I used it a bunch last week and week before.

Off to breakfast at this McDonald's (ughh) we found the other day that has a huge playground. Conveniently next to one of the sane-er Wally Worlds because we have some last minute shopping to do. Then home to straighten up and bake some cookies for Santa.

At 6pm we are going to the candle-light service at church and my wife's cousin has asked about going with us. I never thought this man would ever step foot in a church of any kind if he wasn't going to a funeral. Praise God.

I think that's good advice from Fundad - just get through it and don't make it worse. I'm also thinking - hey, it's not much of a life if you don't have a few cr@ppy Xmases here and there! I feel I've been pretty lucky in my life and have mostly had nice times at Xmas. This year isn't nice, but hey-ho and on we go!

FD's take is definitely a good one. DON'T MAKE IT WORSE! I think I can do that, but given my past history....

Toot's this actually made me laugh. I have only had one or two crazy Christmas's and I guess I can add this one to it. It will fit nicely on the shelf next to the Drunk Family Christmas of '92 when I threw everyone out of my apartment. Good Times.

Wife came by yesterday to bring a slew of gifts for under the tree and we had a pleasant exchange. IDK, just was glad she came by yesterday.

The wife has to work all day today and will most likely have to work late because I'm sure the delivery schedule will look psychotic. All those last minute Amazon shipments. I actually have a lot of empathy for her today. I think she's hurting inside the closer we get to Christmas and there's not a single thing I can do to help her. She's going to have to go this road alone. I think she's got a lot of pain. Some I've caused. Some she's caused. Some that just is. And she hasn't a single clue what to do with it. Maybe mind reading on my part, but I know my wife.

I want to reach out to her this morning and tell her that I hope she has a great day, to let her know that someone is thinking of her and cares, just don't know if I should.

Hope414, and everyone else. I'm sorry but I had to pull back for a minute or two. I know you guys can't help if I'm not talking. I just didn't want any help for a brief moment. I just needed to breathe and recompose myself. I'm not saying I'm better or that I won't go dark again before the Holidays are done and over with. I will do a little better job of poking my head in here, though.

Ah, but wait. she just bridged the gap and texted first just now. She said she may not have to work late and wants to come over tonight afterwards. Mixed emotions, but thankful for anything the kids and I can get.

[SunnyB]

Jefe, glad to hear you sounding more upbeat. It sounds like you have a nice day planned.

Ah, but wait. she just bridged the gap and texted first just now. She said she may not have to work late and wants to come over tonight afterwards. Mixed emotions, but thankful for anything the kids and I can get.

Let me chastise you ever so slightly about the above. Jefe, you are worth more than "anything I can get". I know you are happy to be able to spend time with your W and I'm happy that you'll be able to. But, Jefe dear, you are coming across here as waiting around for her scraps, whatever meager provisions she chooses to toss under the table. I hope you don't really mean that. You are worthy of the best meal on the good china, babe. Hold your head up high and remember you are a child of The Most High God. Your worth comes from Him, not her. This is a great day to remember that.

[Jefe]

You are correct. What's more on my heart is that God has been working on her a lot in the last 7 days and that this is more about Him and her and less about me. And I'm completely OK with that. God's got us covered.

What I meant by I'll take what I can get is that I was actually pretty OK with her not coming, but if she wants to, I'll take it.

Merry Christmas, RPP.

[SunnyB]

What I meant by I'll take what I can get is that I was actually pretty OK with her not coming, but if she wants to, I'll take it.

Merry Christmas, RPP.

Got it. Merry Christmas, Jefe.

[Hope414]

How was Christmas Eve with your wife?

[Jefe]

Merry Christmas, everyone.

I survived.

The wife was here at the house for almost 8 hours today and then took the girls to a movie. I had an enjoyable day, today. I guess it ended up being a little much for her, though.

This man is grateful for his family and very thankful that the possible powder keg brewing with several different family member combinations never happened. It was peaceful and enjoyable. Grandma came and enjoyed herself too.

Some interesting things also took place early this morning. I'll blog tomorrow. Don't want to spoil the Christmas mood just yet.

[SunnyB]

Glad to hear the day turned out ok. Can't wait to hear the rest.

[Jefe]

Well,
Where to start...
We (the girls and I) had a pleasant Christmas Eve. Breakfast, shopping, gift wrapping, Candle Light services, etc. The wife called in the middle of the day to say she was going to get off early and was going to one of the candle light services (yay!!!) and wanted to come by and visit for a little afterwards. She did and it was very comfortable. The kids almost spilled the beans on everything she was getting for Christmas from us, but it all worked out. We got them to bed and then the wife and I found ourselves sitting in the L/R in our usual spots pre-BD, both quite relaxed. I think it made her very uncomfortable after a little while though, because she sprang up and announced that she was leaving and said she'd return in the morning at 9am. Our family was getting together around 11. It all sounded great to me.

I'm not going to lie, it was very sad not having the wife to wake up next to on Christmas morning. I didn't sleep well at all and had great trouble even getting to sleep even though I was exhausted. The thought of what she might be doing, who she might be with on this Christmas Eve. Truth is, it was close to 9 when she left here and nothing was open, I think she went straight home. I do know this much, while I was on FB early Christmas morning I noticed that she did a little purging of her friends list and OM3 and related friends were among the causalities. Hmmm.

Kids miraculously slept in till a little after 7. A first in Christmas history. Santa was good to them and we were having a great time. Mommy came early around 8:30 (Thank you God) and we had a wonderful morning with the kids, even went outside so we could ride our new bikes. Wife and I had some tender moments and closeness. Exchanges some jokes even flirted back and forth a bit. She even let me rub her shoulders for a second or 2. It was almost like old times. I didn't get sucked up this time. I participated but mentally kept my distance.

Later in the morning I went with my mom to the rehab facility (only 2 miles away) to pick up Grandma. Boy, she was in rare form when we got there. Wanted us to wait until they served lunch because it might be something good. I was very concerned with how everything was going to go because of her attitude.

My 22 year old step-daughter from my previous marriage came as well, which is fairly normal (My MIL can't stand her, also fairly normal).

Amazingly, everyone was peaceful and pleasant. Grandma completely enjoyed herself, MIL behaved herself and there was zero awkwardness toward the wife. Wife flirted with me more and I enjoyed every minute of my Christmas.

Now, after everyone was leaving I think the situation started weighing on the wife because we had a not so pleasant exchange right at the end. I am choosing to not let that drag me down or think about it any longer. She maintained for almost 8 hours.

She took them to see a movie and brought them back around 7. She stayed for just a few, then off she went. I believe straight home because she had to work today.

We had a testy exchange about money today but overall she has reached out several times and been pleasant.

She's kept up a happy PMA but there is no way she's not hurting too. I'm thankful she came. Thankful from the glimpses of my old wife, thankful Grandma enjoyed herself and thankful the rest of the family behaved themselves.

Christmas #2 with wife's cousins tomorrow night. Wife is not invited, she doesn't even know about it, but she has to work anyway. Not my choices.

I'll blog more tomorrow.

[labug]

Can you love your wife today, just as she is?

Without going to candlelight service, it she's not hurting as much as you need her to hurt, if the situation isn't weighing on her as much as you think it should?

What I see in your post is a lot about what may or may not be happening with her and not much about you. You're hanging on her every reaction and want her to be your "old" wife.

No matter what happens, that wife isn't coming back.

This may sound harsh, but you need to let her go and create your best life without looking over your shoulder to see where she is.

I'm glad your kids got to be surrounded by a lot of love.

[FunDad]

Hi There Jefe! Glad you had a good Christmas. Mine was great too.

One thing I did this year that really helped me is I purchased my own Christmas present. Santa brought me exactly what I wanted! I guess I made the "nice" list. ;-)

I've been driving the neighborhood crazy with my new RC flying gizmo and I can't tell you how much fun I'm having with the kids.

Keep at it, you will get there.

FD

[Jefe]

Thank you, FD

Just received this text from the wife:

"I think you're doing a wonderful job keeping up with the girls and the house and work. I'm blessed to have you as their father."

Labug, I haven't forgotten nor am I ignoring your post, still praying about it.

[FunDad]

Oh Wow, that's a great compliment! You are doing a great job, and it's obvious to everyone. I'd tell her "thank you" and leave it at that however. You must feel that you are on the end of her yo-yo and statements like that can put you on a high. I suggest that you accept the compliment but don't let it draw you back in.

Remember your goal - if she wants to patch it back together, it starts with pastoral counseling. That's my first step also if my wife turns around. So far, she is not, but I can accept that.

FD

[labug]

You don't have to answer to me, just think about where you want to be in all this given what's available.

Let her do her work just as you need to do yours.

Faith.

[SunnyB]

Happy New Year, Jefe. Hope your 2015 is great.

[Hope414]

"I think you're doing a wonderful job keeping up with the girls and the house and work. I'm blessed to have you as their father."

Hi Jefe,

Have you responded at all to this text?

By this I mean an acknowledgement of some sort so her positive behavior is reinforced?

[Jefe]

Happy New Year, RPP. I wish the same for you, my friend!

[Sotto]

Happy New Year Jefe! You haven't posted much lately, my friend....how are things going with you and yours? :-)

[Jefe]

Grandma came home yesterday. It's been very trying because her mind is faltering. She's gotten angry a few times over things she swears she remembers happening, but we know never did. She's unable to do grip anything and so on. So we'll see how this all works out.

Me and the kids were at church for a few hours New Years Eve because I had to play CR, then went to a friends house to hang out afterwards. The weather has been crappy since Tues so no park or bike riding for us, but we've been having fun none the less. When the wife had the kids last night, I got to go hang out at a few of my favorite spots to visit that I haven't seen in a long time like the huge Bass Pro Shops by the airport and the Gaylord Texan which always has an awesome Christmas display. Then I used one of my gift cards I got for Christmas and treated myself to a steak dinner, because this kid's been living on a Ramen noodle and Mac n Cheese budget for a few weeks now. My PMA is a whole lot better now that everything around me has seemed to level out a bit and Christmas is finally over. I will be so glad when school starts back up and life gets back to normal.

Wife has been very involved in our lives since just before Christmas. She has come by a few evenings to just hang out with us, she has started calling almost every day, again, just to "check on the girls" but she usually just talks to me. She has come to get the girls a few extra times including last night. While she had the girls she called me for no other reason than just to see what I was doing and just to talk. She called several times wanting to know what we were doing for NYE. I think she wanted to hang with us but didn't know how to ask. I was going to offer but I knew she didn't want to hang at the church so I just left it alone.

She deleted OM3 and his pals from FB Christmas morning and deleted Suspected OM2 New Years day as well as a couple of other people purged in-between. She was here today and feeling very comfortable. We were talking in our bedroom and she even went to use the bathroom with the door open while still talking to me (this hasn't happened in months, door is usually locked). What does this all mean? I don't have a clue. I do know that I am being me. I'm not chasing but I'm mirroring. She's getting a little testy about money but I'm holding my ground on what I believe to be sound decisions. I am starting to see more and more of the fog lift but I'm not firing up the moving truck. So all in all, I'm okay with life for right now. Not how I choose for things to be, but I'm okay.

[Sotto]

Good to hear Jefe. You sound lots better than before. Now then, the main things are to make sure your expectations stay very low, and that your betterness is linked to you feeling better in yourself and not because your W has warmed up a little..

Good for you though....I'm pleased for you matey!

[DaddyLongShanks]

Thank you, FD

Just received this text from the wife:

"I think you're doing a wonderful job keeping up with the girls and the house and work. I'm blessed to have you as their father."

Labug, I haven't forgotten nor am I ignoring your post, still praying about it.

Jefe. Of course they know they are blessed, when their man has them no matter what type of side situations they get involved in.

I wouldn't let the statement hook you or change your resolve. I see you guys have an age gap, what was the ages of the guys she messed around with? Where they younger than her? Older? Same age?

Did the affairs start on FB? Perhaps for you to continue forward you are allowed to monitor phone calls, emails and FB for the next year? Or else you have to pull your support and take care of only yourself.

They are going to cheat if they want to cheat, and if there is no repercussion they have no reason not to want to do it again.

One repercussion was you withdraw all of your emotional and financial support for a long enough period of time for her to decide that she has it good and she wants to do right by your marriage.

[labug]

It means she's been spending more time at your house, more time with her daughters and has the same boundaries with the man she's no longer in an intimate R that she did when they were in that R.

As toots said, watch the expectations.

Don't jump on her ride. Stay your course.

[labug]

And why do you know so much about her FB doings?

[PeterV2]

And why do you know so much about her FB doings?

Yeah, stop snooping.

And don't mention any of your changes. Just let the results speak for themselves.

And don't take the temperature of your R with her. Just carry on your positive movement.

As for Grandma, it reminds me a little of how a WAW thinks - talking about things that didn't happen. Rewriting history.
But not to make light of it, that's par for the course as folks age. I wish you and her all the best - I know it's hard sometimes. My W & I run a senior's home. Just have to be gentle & loving. Let them age with dignity.

But all in all, Jefe, it seems like your on the right path. May 2015 bring you and your W back together in a new marriage.

[SunnyB]

Hi Jefe, thanks for the update. Sounds like things might be on an upswing. But I agree, do be careful with expectations. Labug told me the same thing the other day, "stay your course". She's a wise one, that bug.

[Jefe]

"I think you're doing a wonderful job keeping up with the girls and the house and work. I'm blessed to have you as their father."

Hi Jefe,

Have you responded at all to this text?

By this I mean an acknowledgement of some sort so her positive behavior is reinforced?

Absolutely. I sent her a text thanking her about 5 minutes later. She promptly called me and we had a very pleasant conversation about it. Earlier that day we had exchanged several phone calls and texts and overall it was all very nice. I've been doing a pretty good job of mirroring the positive actions she displays and ignoring the negative. We had a exchange Fri that could have turned negative quickly, she even lobbed a few grenades but I refused to engage in the battle. I calmly stated my position, stood my ground and she de-escalated almost as quickly. So feeling pretty proud of myself there. Don't know if that qualifies as a 180 but it's a damn good start.

*I never received an answer to my question "Moderators", why is it that Hope414 is STILL on lockdown? Seriously, almost a solid week to review a response?*

[Jefe]

And why do you know so much about her FB doings?

Yeah, stop snooping.

And don't mention any of your changes. Just let the results speak for themselves.

And don't take the temperature of your R with her. Just carry on your positive movement.

As for Grandma, it reminds me a little of how a WAW thinks - talking about things that didn't happen. Rewriting history.
But not to make light of it, that's par for the course as folks age. I wish you and her all the best - I know it's hard sometimes. My W & I run a senior's home. Just have to be gentle & loving. Let them age with dignity.

But all in all, Jefe, it seems like your on the right path. May 2015 bring you and your W back together in a new marriage.

Thank you Peter. We are going to have an MRI done on Grandma. We are starting to thing she may have hit her head on that last fall a little harder than initially thought as we all agree that her mental capacity and ability is vastly different since then. And I agree, she has been rewriting history. It's so hard watching this part of the aging process.

Don't think I have taken temperature or mentioned any of my changes but since you brought it up I am going to examine myself a bit and pay closer attention to what I'm saying and how I'm acting/reacting.

Happy new year, Peter!

[Jefe]

Hi Jefe, thanks for the update. Sounds like things might be on an upswing. But I agree, do be careful with expectations. Labug told me the same thing the other day, "stay your course". She's a wise one, that bug.

I'm always hopeful but I have no expectations at this point. I'm just observing. Things definitely appear to be on an upswing. I had dreaded the holidays but we managed to get through them fairly smoothly.


Just blogging here:

She stopped by last night after picking up the girls to grab their backpacks and school stuff so she could take them to school this morning and was flirting and making comments and innuendos, talking about how the kids weren't here and so on.

Just observations.

[Hope414]

"I never received an answer to my question "Moderators", why is it that Hope414 is STILL on lockdown? Seriously, almost a solid week to review a response?*

Jefe, I broke the rules when I posted a link. When you break the rules there are consequences. This site is a service not a right. I can understand your frustration but the moderators don't owe you an explanation. Please don't treat them as if they do.

That being said, you need to take a moment and look at how good your are doing. You have developed the ability to detach without becoming distant. You have learned to deflect without disengaging.

You have really come a long way.

[PeterV2]

As for Grandma: yeah my dad had hit his head and a couple months later didn't know what year it was. Turned out he had a subdermal hemotoma and once they drilled a hole in his skull and drained it he was back to his normal self. That was 13 years ago and he's been fine ever since. Just sayin'

Keep up the PMA. Let the process play itself out. You're doing great.

[Jefe]

Thanks, Peter.

You are correct Hope. I did not mean to come off as "demanding". I appreciate the free use of this site. I definitely understand that it is both a benevolent offering for those who cannot afford the cost of a DB coach (like myself) as well as an excellent marketing tool for those who can. Which means they can choose who and what can be posted here and owe none of us anything. So, that being said, I do apologize for the terse post. My PMA has not been quite up to par on a few days in the past month.

On a lighter note, thank you for the comments, that means a lot.

Happy New Year, Hope.

[Jefe]

Blogging

Wife called last night to let me know that she was going to be stopping by right after her AlAnon meeting so I could fix her window. I don't know if she slipped, just force of habit, or what, but when I answered she said "Hey babe".

While she was here, she was helping me fix it and getting close. She even made mention of how good I smelled.

Today, she called just to talk while she was at work. Pleasant conversation. She mentioned how unhappy her life is, or something to that effect during the call. When we were hanging up she said "Well, I just was calling to check on the dogs and kids and stuff."
I replied: "No you didn't, you called to talk to me, and that's okay."
She responded: "Yes, that's true. I enjoy talking to you and hearing your voice."

After we hung up, I emailed her one of those funny video greeting cards where you can paste face photos of yourselves onto the characters. I included the 4 of us and told her that I hoped this would put a smile on her face.

She responded shortly after that it made her laugh.

We were supposed to go to the mediator this past Tues which I had forgotten about until she reminded me on Mon. I told her to reschedule it please because I had to work. I believe she just canceled it and blew it off or she went without me (I seriously doubt it) as not another word was mentioned.

I have a busy weekend planed for myself and the kids. Dinner / Bible study tonight, breakfast / band meeting tomorrow, etc, etc.

I'm in a much better place today than just 2 weeks ago. Yes, the positive movement is putting a smile on my face too, but I'm not putting a lot of stock into it at the moment or changing my plans.

TwinMom, I manage to make it at least an hour these days without thinking about her, so yay me.

[Hope414]

We were supposed to go to the mediator this past Tues which I had forgotten about until she reminded me on Mon. I told her to reschedule it please because I had to work. I believe she just canceled it and blew it off or she went without me (I seriously doubt it) as not another word was mentioned.

Good for you for taking control of the situation. Your wife is free to make her choices but she can't control any of your actions. However, don't assume what your wife did. She may have gone to mediation without you.

I'm impressed how you handled the phone call. Very empathetic. You recognized she was disclosing intimate information--unhappiness with her life--and by doing this, she was handing over trust. You could have lashed out when she gave you this information (i.e. "You made your bed...now lie in it.")

But you didn't.

I think your response was very appropriate. You let her know it is okay to talk to you about her feelings.

I think sending the video greeting card was a very loving extra step. Again it validated her decision to trust you as a confident.

[Jefe]

Lol, don't think the thought didn't cross my mind. "Oh, you're unhappy? Imagine that." Nah, that was just a brief second. The thoughts were more like, "You're unhappy? I have a solution, you know..."

Bottom line is, I can't do this for her. This has got to be her process.

I have become more intentional in prayer and have even been praying for the other people she is/was involved with (and NO, I haven't been praying that they get run over by a freight train, either.) God is good and He's got this.

Just happy for the little bit of peace I have in my life, even if it's only for a short moment.

[Hope414]

I think you are doing really great.

Based on your most recent interaction I'd liked to suggest a technique:

Try to remember all the fights you didn't have because of words that were never spoken. Use the conversation above as a starting point.

Notice how refusing to take a conversation down a negative path helped the conversation melt into your lives instead of take over your lives. Chances are you remember negative conversations more than positive conversations because positive conversations are forgettable.

Since your wife is having a positive response, I think your marriage would greatly benefit if you continued a conscious effort toward making positive conversations a memorable event between you and your wife. A great example of making positive conversations a memorable event is what you just did when you sent the video card as a follow up.

Negative conversations lead to arguments and rob you both of any strides you may have made. Arguments continue in our mind long after the actual conversation has ended. This is how a negative conversation continues.

You can use this same technique with a positive conversations by continuing the "niceness" long after the actual conversation has ended.

Again, you're doing great Jefe.

[Jefe]

I think I see the bigger picture here.

So if she wants to go negative or tries to engage me in a fight, I quickly exit the conversation without reacting or participating and refuse to bring it up or discuss it (as to not reinforce it). Then she will be unable to tie any negative interaction with me or the marriage in her memory banks because I did not take part, but the positive interactions get "rewarded", for lack of a better term, anchoring positive memories. For both of us. That makes this a win/win. The more positive interactions that build up, the less ammunition is in reserve for future fights. This then becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy of positive and happy. Geeze, it seems so simple and obvious when I type it out in print.


I think Peter or Devaste mentioned a similar technique or rewarding positive communication they had used in the past.

Feeling dumb, but enlightened.

[Hope414]

Absolutely. You are seeing the bigger picture. It is remarkable how simple things are in print and how difficult they become when put in practice.

There have been studies regarding short and long term memory functions. One theory is that memories are vulnerable to manipulation each time they are recalled. In other words, you can alter a person’s memory by interjecting a bias.

Injecting a bias is very simple. You can inject a bias by changing your tone or choice of words. Instead of raising your voice, you soften your voice. Instead of sitting across the room when having the discussion, you walk over and hold her hand. The key to injecting a bias is to make sure your story is being told with more than words.

How many times have you heard, “It’s not what you said but how you said it?” This is why email and text messages are often discouraged as a primary communication tool when a couple is in conflict.

It makes the Interceptor 100% responsible to interpret body language, inflection, and volume with zero information. The Interceptor will base their understanding of an email or text not by the Transmitter’s intention but by the emotional state of the Interceptor at the moment they read the email or text.

One theory in marriage counseling is to go back to the courtship stage and present yourself in the most positive light possible. This might be an option for you and your wife.

Many relationships have problems because people develop negative assumptions about each other. It’s difficult to have empathy toward someone when you have negative assumptions toward them. However, it’s very easy to have empathy toward someone you like.

This is why you want to steer clear of any discussion that would create a negative assumption.

Keep in mind that you have the rest of your life to work out issues once the relationship has been restored.

[Jefe]

"This is why you want to steer clear of any discussion that would create a negative assumption.

Keep in mind that you have the rest of your life to work out issues once the relationship has been restored."

This requires more grace than I feel like I possess sometimes but it's getting easier.

God revealed to me very clearly yesterday morning, He woke me up in the middle of the night to tell me, I can have "amends" about all of the hurts I have against my wife and how I feel wronged or He can bring her home, but I cannot have both. At least not right now. I also have some understanding and clarity that she is exceptionally wounded and not just by my hand. So I'm taking that into account too.

She's made steps towards resolution that I never thought she'd make. Things I thought would start a war if I asked her to do them, she's done on her own.

It's simply amazing.

I feel like I can almost reach out and touch it some days. Then others, like today, it feels like it's a million miles away. I am real clear that if I force it, chase it, manipulate it, pursue it, or otherwise just try and grab it that it sets the clock back. I have no choice other than to just love her, mirror her, and project as much positive and kind gestures her direction as possible when we interact. Plus I must have myself built on a solid foundation so she has something to lean against.

"Notice how refusing to take a conversation down a negative path helped the conversation melt into your lives instead of take over your lives. Chances are you remember negative conversations more than positive conversations because positive conversations are forgettable."

I was thinking about this just now and I remembered that during the conversation Fri, we fell into a topic that has a comfortable and predictable pattern that usually ends up negative but instead, I just stopped mid stream and said, "Yes, dear. It's no problem." She even commented that, that made her happy.

I choose my marriage over being right. It may just be the one concept that ends up saving my sorry behind.

Thank you Hope.

[Hope414]

God revealed to me very clearly yesterday morning, He woke me up in the middle of the night to tell me, I can have "amends" about all of the hurts I have against my wife and how I feel wronged or He can bring her home, but I cannot have both.

I think this is a remarkable revelation. And I think you possess more grace than you are aware of.

[SunnyB]

I choose my marriage over being right.

Jefe, I think this is huge. Sounds like you are doing well these days. Glad to see that.

[seaspin]

God revealed to me very clearly yesterday morning, He woke me up in the middle of the night to tell me, I can have "amends" about all of the hurts I have against my wife and how I feel wronged or He can bring her home, but I cannot have both.

Thanks for sharing! I can imagine that it would be hard to set aside your hurts. I know it would be for me. But, knowing that God's plan is better, it will be worth it!

[Jefe]

God revealed to me very clearly yesterday morning, He woke me up in the middle of the night to tell me, I can have "amends" about all of the hurts I have against my wife and how I feel wronged or He can bring her home, but I cannot have both.

Thanks for sharing! I can imagine that it would be hard to set aside your hurts. I know it would be for me. But, knowing that God's plan is better, it will be worth it!

I'm not thrilled with the idea of it, but wish I could express how clear the message was at 4:30 that morning. To quote a line from the move The Family Man, "I choose us."

[Jefe]

A bit of blogging.

We kept a busy schedule this weekend. Wife was completely silent and dark. No idea what she did or where she was. But we were busy enough that it didn't bother us.

Late yesterday she texted and said she was on the way. I replied back "On the way where?" She was going to come pick them up for the evening but we weren't home and it was really too late to come get them because she wouldn't have any time with them before bed time. I basically told her that she hadn't communicated all weekend and we made plans. She was okay with that and we made alternative plans for her to spend some time with them which works out better for all anyway. I was upbeat and positive and it went well.

Today we exchanged several calls and texts that were pleasant and playful, for the most part. Later she stopped by to bring me something and was being a little flirty & coy, so as she was leaving I called out to her: "Thanks, beautiful" She responded: "Thank you....Handsome", all in tone that I haven't heard in almost 7 months. She only says this to me traditionally when things are going really well in our relationship. So score some brownie points for me. NOT reading too much into it, but it feels good to get some familiar playful kindness in return.

Tomorrow is another day, and I could be in the middle of the floor crying. We'll have to wait and see what it brings.

[Hope414]

This post made me smile...as I'm sure it made others smile.

[Jefe]

"One theory in marriage counseling is to go back to the courtship stage and present yourself in the most positive light possible. This might be an option for you and your wife."

Hope, I have been mulling this one over and am curious what your thoughts are on putting this into practice, specifically for us.

(Hoping this is not another stupidly obvious point that I failed to grasp)

[DaddyLongShanks]

"One theory in marriage counseling is to go back to the courtship stage and present yourself in the most positive light possible. This might be an option for you and your wife."

Hope, I have been mulling this one over and am curious what your thoughts are on putting this into practice, specifically for us.

(Hoping this is not another stupidly obvious point that I failed to grasp)

Get back to that positive and attractive man who attracted her in the first place. Don't try to catch her every day, just do the things that make you happy and take care of yourself.

[PeterV2]

Since you're basically starting over, might as well start the courting stance, as long as it's reciprocated and doesn't come off as "pursuing". Your little exchange the yesterday is a start. But don't go too quickly or too aggressively. Keep it playful and light-hearted.

You're already presenting yourself in the best light possible, except that this time it's authentic. You are the best man you can be. No eminence front this time around. Be yourself, but your better self. PMA. Light-hearted and lovingly gentle.

[Hope414]

Try to start dating her.

Don't make it any more complicated than that.

[Jefe]

Wow, that's 2 thumbs up on a little courting. I've been feeling like I want to try it too.

We have been either talking or texting literally, almost all day. Situations today have warranted it but it's been nice. Pleasant. Even when we disagreed on something, it just flew right by without incident. I was very proud of myself for being cognizant of my current emotion or thoughts and being able to direct them where I wanted them to go rather than my mouth operating with complete abandon. I was able to hear Hope414 in my head from the last time I blew it really bad back in Oct telling me how with the current status of my marriage I simply did not have the luxury to make these kind of mistakes.

I stopped by the apartment to grab one of the kiddo's this evening (It's Mommy's night tonight and both are home sick with strep) because my D7 wanted to spend the night with daddy instead of mommy, which is fine by both of us. While I was there in the parking lot D7 kept nagging mommy to "hug daddy". She kept repeating it and my wife kept declining. She then asked: "Don't you love daddy?" My wife replied: "Yes, I love daddy." This is a huge improvement over exactly 3 weeks ago when her response to the same question was not as pleasant.

We both left, me home with D7, wife to AlAnon (Yay!!! she's been catching every meeting she can make!) She called just before she went into the meeting and wanted to talk. We talked for several minutes and she was using the same familiar and future language that she was using back before this all got bad.

Peter, I am going to pray long and hard before I make a single move and let God guide this. Otherwise, I WILL move too fast and too aggressively.

Good grief, I'm all nervous just like I was when I first asked her to meet me at the little place on the corner.

Quick (very quick) recap of the positive movement I have seen just since Christmas week:
1)Started attending church again (not ours, but who cares)
2)Deleted confirmed OM3 and "pals" from FB
3)Spent almost 8 hours w/ us for Christmas
4)Has been calling just to talk on multiple occasions
5)Deleted suspected OM2 from FB
6)Abruptly quit Tues night pool league (where OM3 played)
7)Openly flirting including making an obvious stare at my package wile making comments. ;-)
8)Appears to have deleted chat app she was using with OM1 (the deal that started this all in motion back in Aug)
9)Spending more time with the kids including coming by the house and spending time here
10)Making AlAnon meetings whenever possible

[PeterV2]

Signs are good, but be careful that you don't seem too eager. Play it cool. Hang back. A wink here & there. But let her set the pace.

There was something I read on these posts about 6 or 7 months ago about allowing her to set the pace. I wish I could remember it. But that's the gist of it anyway - let her set the pace. Reflect and be aware. And don't talk about it. It's actions, not words. Keep it light.

I'm rooting for you.

And remember, this is a marathon. There are no such things as unrealistic goals, just unrealistic deadlines.

[Hope414]

Peter is right. Affirm her actions but let her set the pace.

Make sure to respect her space without appearing cold, withdrawn or punishing.

But, I'm not worried. You seem to have found the balance that is working to rebuild your relationship.

Good for you!

[PeterV2]

I found it: (on stacey9's threads from Sept 13, 2014) I'll reverse the genders to make it more relevant...

I've been doing some work with a marriage reconciliation coach whom I found prior to finding this site. The advice he has given me may be helpful to you, so I'll pass it on. He gave me two methods of reattraction.

1) agreement (in a very specific way) for example: you say "the weather is nice today" and I DONT say "I agree" and I DONT repeat your statement by saying "yeah, the weather really is nice today". I choose one point from your statement that I agree with and say something like "yeah, the sun is shining bright today." The coach is a psychologist with 20 years of reconciliation experience. He said that if I use the first two methods of agreement too frequently it will seem as if I'm just trying to be agreeable all the time, however, if I use the third method I will be agreeing in a way that she will subconsciously pick up on. For her to be attracted to you, she had to feel like you're on her team. No matter what she says, you can always find a way to be agreeable without agreeing to something you don't agree with. An example would be "having kids is horrible" "yeah, they can be very challenging". It's true, kids can be very challenging, but you didn't say they are horrible. Allowing her to feel that you're on her side will help her to become more comfortable around you and to let her guard down. That will open the door for connection.

2) empathy. That one is rather self explanatory.

He told me that those two tools are among the best things you can do to help her start to open back up to you. Other than the rules that have already been expressed to you on this site, which he also gave me. Once she starts contacting you when she doesn't have to, you'll know you've made progress ...but never outdo what she's doing. If she contacts you for "non-business" reasons 3 times in one week, you contact her for non-business reasons no more than 3 times a week. Let her set the pace. If she gives you a high five, you don't get to hug her. If you go faster than her, she'll feel like you're not on her team anymore and you'll back track.

Words of wisdom. It actually came from jp?something, not stacey9 but regardless of the source, it's worth repeating.

[Jefe]

Good stuff, Peter. Thank you! So according to this, I can pick up the pace, just a tad. Just to match her a little more.

Several more calls today, some business, some quasi business, a few really playful just because.

I have been making it a habit to never call her first unless it's an absolute necessity. Sounds like I could do a little more.

She is most certainly warming up. I think she really wants to come home she just doesn't know how.

New thread starts here: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2527700&#Post2527700