Busting this Divorce - 90 Days NC #1

[HPoirot]

Already on day #2 there's negative contact with W...

Picked up s11 from school. He had an ok day but looked kinda down. Told him we would go explore the forest by the condo and he cheered up a little.

Got home and he started his homework. My phone rings. It is W. I decline the call.

She leaves an angry voice mail this time... "You are abso-f*cking-loutly insane if you think it's OK not to answer the phone when I call when you have my son! I cannot believe that no one will give me a call back and just let me know that he is okay! This is ridiculous HP! Grow the F*ck up and answer the phone when I call! Ridiculous!"

She also sent a text... "Would you call me and let me know how my son is. Or have him call me."

I asked s11 where his phone was. He said in his bag. I asked him to keep it with him in case he gets a call. Then she called him.

After a bit he says "mom wants to pick me up to take me to school in the morning. She will pick me up from school and bring me home too."

I made a mistake here. I probably just should have said yes. This was not what we agreed to though. I should have taken the phone. Instead I told s11 to tell is mom "no, that's not what we agreed to." This made s11 uncomfortable. I was wrong to have him do that.

He told her and she said she wanted to talk with me. He gave me the phone. I put on my best neighbor voice. She was calmer. I said that's not what we agreed. She said I since I was keeping him an extra day she wanted to see him tomorrow. I just said OK b/c I couldn't stand to speak with her for another second. I gave the phone back to S11.

Now both s11 and I feel nauseous.

I can't have it be like this every week. I will grow to hate her at this rate. I can barely speak with her. How can I make her understand for the 3rd time to not call me unless it is an emergency with s11?

I'm considering texting her... "We're going through a difficult time right now. You understand if I do not want to hear from you. I will ask S11 to call you before and after school."

[Wonka]

HP,

You are going have to be like a dog trainer. Reward the dog for good behaviors and ignore the bad behavior. Likewise with your W. Ignore her rantings and negative emails/texts.

Respond to those that are a bit more respectful.

After a bit he says "mom wants to pick me up to take me to school in the morning. She will pick me up from school and bring me home too."

I made a mistake here. I probably just should have said yes. This was not what we agreed to though. I should have taken the phone. Instead I told s11 to tell is mom "no, that's not what we agreed to." This made s11 uncomfortable. I was wrong to have him do that.

He told her and she said she wanted to talk with me. He gave me the phone. I put on my best neighbor voice. She was calmer. I said that's not what we agreed. She said I since I was keeping him an extra day she wanted to see him tomorrow. I just said OK b/c I couldn't stand to speak with her for another second. I gave the phone back to S11.

You're fighting over small potatoes with W. In the grand scheme of things, this is good in that W wants to pick up S11. At least she wants to be an involved parent. Work with her on this. Don't be a jerk or make it hard for W just because you don't want to see/hear her. She can wait out in the front of the condo entrance for S11 to come out.

Choose your battles wisely. Think about the bigger picture.

Finally, I would not advise you sending that snarky text...it serves no purpose other than come out as a bitter man. You want to show W a strong and confident HP.

Get your mojo back, buddy!

[Zues126]

I'm not blaming you for not being further, just trying to help you flesh out a point it might be nice to reach.

Basically, it's detachment. Reaching a point at which her swigs don't rattle you. She acted a bit crazy. In turn, you feel the need to vent about it or just share it with someone so they can say "you're right, she is acting a bit crazy at times, wow you're dealing with a lot, tough to handle man!" At least that's the support I was looking for when my STBX did stuff like that.

Now it doesn't get to me. I expect it. I get that it has nothing to do with the me I am now. It has to do with who she is, the emotions she's processing, etc. yes, I made mistakes in the M and am working on being a better person. But her actions are hers alone. So I guess I don't feel any differently then when my D4 throws a fit. That's what 4 year olds do when they're upset. And that's what WAW's do. I'm not going to let a 4 year old emotionally engage me every time she gets upset about something. That would be hard on me and would just encourage and reward that behavior. Instead, I just do what Wonka says and tune that out. I find the reasonable nugget inside her rant and just respond to that calmly and move on.

So two parts. One- Stop being surprised, outraged, righteous, or anything about her actions. And two- Maybe try my 'translator'. In other words, before responding, ask yourself what you would say if she had made her request in a more neighborly and reasonable way. Like if she said "sorry to bother you, I know this isn't what we had discussed and don't want to make a habit of messing with our schedules with S, but I miss him and was wondering if..." How would you respond to that? Just respond the same way. Then you'll know that you're my allowing her to engage you more than you want her to emotionally, and you can respond like the person you want to be. Neither a punisher nor a pushover.

[SunnyB]

HP, I have read enough about your sich to understand your W is a drama queen. Still, I'm going to put in a plug for her on one point. If I had been trying to get in touch with my D12 and she wasn't answering, I'd then go to the adult in charge. If the adult declined my call I'd be ticked. I wouldn't have expressed it quite the same way, though. So.....maybe just ask your S to call mom after school? You don't need to say anything to your W about it though, imo.

But on the schedule change, in my sich I'd say something because H and I have specifically agreed that all schedule changes have to be made between the parents. There is to be no using our child as a messenger by either of us. If H made arrangements with D12 without going through me, I'd make sure she wasn't available. But if H asked me about it first, I'd accomodate if I could. I'm doing it this weekend for him. I think you and W just need to clear up how changes are handled.

[CaliGuy]

HP ... I am not fully up on your sitch .. but reading that TM made me think of my wife .. she would write/say those things all the time. Hindsight ... I set a boundary and she did not like the box I put her in so she acted like a kid and acted out. Its good ... hold to your guns on this at all costs. I am at the point the only TM I reply to are concerning S, anything else is ignored or I will reply 2 hours later. Kid emergency .. immediate response ... all the other stuff can wait or is talked about in person ... I tired of all the discussions where something was taken wrong via text. In time she will respect your boundary and you will be at peace for it .. trust me.

[Vanilla]

Gracious

I am a master at dealing with this: see my thread

Let's categorise

Spew- incoherent rubbish designed to put you on edge.
Correct response: STFU and walk away

Abusive spew: incoherent rubbish designed to but you on edge and insult
correct response: STFU and walk away, next day correct boundary infringement

Rant- all of your "faults" that annoy them designed to release anger for them at your expense
Correct response- STFU and then validate " I can see why you might think that"

Abusive rant- designed to release anger for them at your expense and insult
Correct response- STFU and walk away, next day correct boundary infringement

Sulk- make you feel small for wrong doing
Correct response- STFU and ignore, act as if did not happen

Rail- designed to press your buttons keeps on about one issue, can even involve following you to the loo
Correct response- STFU and leave to go GAL

Disappear- designed to make you worry and apprehensive
Correct response- STFU detach and act as if all ok

Tantrum- no purpose whatsoever but feels good
Correct response- STFU and look surprised

Blame- design to shift responsibility
Correct response- validate and deflect if not responsible, if are responsible diffuse by accepting responsible then apologise then walk away

In all sitches detach and if necessary act confused.

Vanilla

[Wonka]

Vanilla,

Care to share some of your 'honest-to-God-it's-not-poisonous' kool-aid here?

Gracious
I am a master at dealing with this: see my thread

[Vanilla]

I will give it a go, but I usually use syrup.

W, i apogise if you were concerned, in future we will make sure that you know that S is ok. I will meet all the obligations I agreed to and will be as flexible as possible when I can. Can I assure you that S is talking about his mum.

Vanilla

[HPoirot]

I will give it a go, but I usually use syrup.

W, i apogise if you were concerned, in future we will make sure that you know that S is ok. I will meet all the obligations I agreed to and will be as flexible as possible when I can. Can I assure you that S is talking about his mum.

Vanilla

I really like that Vanilla! I really want to get better at this back and forth with my W. You have to understand... my W talks for a living. She literally lives to talk and sh ecan go non-stop. She knows I'm not like that at all. I've always been the handsome silent H. I'm paying for that deficiency now. I would love to text this to her if it means I'll get a few days off from her.

[Wonka]

I will give it a go, but I usually use syrup.

W, i apogise if you were concerned, in future we will make sure that you know that S is ok. I will meet all the obligations I agreed to and will be as flexible as possible when I can. Can I assure you that S is talking about his mum.

Vanilla

I really like that Vanilla! I really want to get better at this back and forth with my W. You have to understand... my W talks for a living. She literally lives to talk and sh ecan go non-stop. She knows I'm not like that at all. I've always been the handsome silent H. I'm paying for that deficiency now. I would love to text this to her if it means I'll get a few days off from her.

What 'all obligations'??!! Exactly. Don't promise things that you cannot keep or over promise things that you can't deliver. Try not to paint yourself into a corner.

STFU and KISS. Simpatico. Capisce?

[HPoirot]

HP ... I am not fully up on your sitch .. but reading that TM made me think of my wife .. she would write/say those things all the time. Hindsight ... I set a boundary and she did not like the box I put her in so she acted like a kid and acted out. Its good ... hold to your guns on this at all costs. I am at the point the only TM I reply to are concerning S, anything else is ignored or I will reply 2 hours later. Kid emergency .. immediate response ... all the other stuff can wait or is talked about in person ... I tired of all the discussions where something was taken wrong via text. In time she will respect your boundary and you will be at peace for it .. trust me.

Thank you for this CaliGuy. I'm understanding the importance of setting boundaries with my W instead of punishing her b/c of anger. I do want our R to survive this horrible time and grow into a better M... but right now when she's so so against me I have trouble acting without second thoughts. I still want this M with her after everything that has happened. Despite all the actions I've taken to turn this sitch around with her... every new act I have to take hurts.

That's why I come here for advice... b/c part of me wants to tell her I need her like I always have and I fight that part of me. When she's screaming at me, I have to work to ignore it. I felt hurt today when she left that angry voice mail. I really want her to stop calling me b/c I feel hurt to hear her voice. Even as I come very close to hating her... part of me wants to call her right now and ask her to talk to me. Tell her to come over to the condo and let's all be together.

And I'm starting to hate that part of me. I'm on day 2 of 90 days being in NC with her and my W and friend of almost 20 years who says she loves a stranger is screaming at me and wants ME to "grow up."

It's hard as you well know. Right now my mojo and PMA is low. I've had a few too many drinks. Tomorrow I'll be back up the strength and ready to make my W angry and/or cry with no guarantee of an R.

And I'll hate it.

Every second of it.

EDIT: Ugh... sorry... drunken idiot pity party rant. Ignore everything I just said except making my wife angry and cry tomorrow (if needed).

[HPoirot]

HP, I have read enough about your sich to understand your W is a drama queen. Still, I'm going to put in a plug for her on one point. If I had been trying to get in touch with my D12 and she wasn't answering, I'd then go to the adult in charge. If the adult declined my call I'd be ticked. I wouldn't have expressed it quite the same way, though. So.....maybe just ask your S to call mom after school? You don't need to say anything to your W about it though, imo.

But on the schedule change, in my sich I'd say something because H and I have specifically agreed that all schedule changes have to be made between the parents. There is to be no using our child as a messenger by either of us. If H made arrangements with D12 without going through me, I'd make sure she wasn't available. But if H asked me about it first, I'd accomodate if I could. I'm doing it this weekend for him. I think you and W just need to clear up how changes are handled.

Yes I think you are right. I could have easily avoided all this if I just told S11... "Hey son... please call your mom." I did that last night... saw that he didn't... and let it go. He has been declining her calls... I could tell him to stop doing that. I have been telling him to not make mom feel bad... but at the same time showing some displeasure with his mom in front of him. So yes I made this problem with W myself. I know she wants to be supermom right now which is what I want for my boy so I can help her with that.

[HPoirot]

Choose your battles wisely. Think about the bigger picture.

Finally, I would not advise you sending that snarky text...it serves no purpose other than come out as a bitter man. You want to show W a strong and confident HP.

Get your mojo back, buddy!

Thank you Wonka. Yes I did show weakness today. It was no big deal and I could have just said yes to her request and not have to hear her voice. I'm concerned she'll just keep calling me when I've made it clear I only want to hear from her in emergencies. I'm truly tired of her wanting to talk in the morning then screaming at me in the evening. Yes no doubt I'm not detached and, though I should be able to take and ignore anything she gives me now, sometimes I fail and then scramble to recover causing more problems.

I was saying this morning I just wanted a few days of not being a LBH. Just to get to work and have some good days. Then I let her "I REALLY need to talk" text throw me off immediately and I got no work done which fed directly into W's screaming VM. I know better than to let her get to me like that as you say Zeus. Even if I'm not detached I know how to do it under worse pressure and I have. I set myself up today thinking I would not hear from her. I'm tired of having to be ready for her everyday and it irritated me her telling me to grow up after I left her and made it clear I only wanted to hear from her in emergencies.

I'm seeing, though, that having my mojo back means being cool no matter what she does. I can't expect her to do anything I ask or expect obviously as right now she cares nothing about me or my feelings. So you're right Zeus... I can't afford to be surprised by her actions. I know she feels trapped and scared and in love and in hate and messed up and awful and empowered and more. I can't afford to keep riding with her on her roller coaster.

So that is why I come here. My instant reaction is still to react to her sometimes or to cllimb out of whatever hole I feel I'm in. I'm remembering Starsky's 2x4 that, after all that I've been through in her face for spew, I should be more cool about what happened today. I'll do better tomorrow. Even better, I've think ahead of any crap from her and do what it takes to avoid it.

My big mistake was I wanted a rest from being an LBS today. Lesson learned.

[HPoirot]

I sent text to W... "I know you are concerned and I apologize. In future I will make sure you know s11 is OK."

[HPoirot]

So, after my angry thrashing again over minor issues with W... I apologized for not making sure s11 called her and she apologized for her angry VM. She will pick up s11 tomorrow from the condo in her rental car and drop him back here in the afternoon.

No more unnecessary drama with s11 then. I will settle into 90 days NC for my own good.

Focused on the great advice here that has me only improving my life for the next 6 months.

Restarting tomorrow... day #3.

[HPoirot]

Gracious

I am a master at dealing with this: see my thread

Let's categorise

Spew- incoherent rubbish designed to put you on edge.
Correct response: STFU and walk away

Abusive spew: incoherent rubbish designed to but you on edge and insult
correct response: STFU and walk away, next day correct boundary infringement

Rant- all of your "faults" that annoy them designed to release anger for them at your expense
Correct response- STFU and then validate " I can see why you might think that"

Abusive rant- designed to release anger for them at your expense and insult
Correct response- STFU and walk away, next day correct boundary infringement

Sulk- make you feel small for wrong doing
Correct response- STFU and ignore, act as if did not happen

Rail- designed to press your buttons keeps on about one issue, can even involve following you to the loo
Correct response- STFU and leave to go GAL

Disappear- designed to make you worry and apprehensive
Correct response- STFU detach and act as if all ok

Tantrum- no purpose whatsoever but feels good
Correct response- STFU and look surprised

Blame- design to shift responsibility
Correct response- validate and deflect if not responsible, if are responsible diffuse by accepting responsible then apologise then walk away

In all sitches detach and if necessary act confused.

Vanilla

Thank you so much Vanilla for this post. I will keep your words and practice graciousness Vanilla style.

[Wonka]

HP,

Having no contact with W except in emergencies is unrealistic given that you have a minor child who cannot drive. Yeah, you will need to co-parent with W on logistics on school runs, homework, vacations, health issues, etc.

Having said that, you can have business-like exchanges with W on logistics without playing "happy families" together. Try to keep those interactions at a minimum.

[claire7]

HP,

I like to think of it as "co- worker who is only an acquaintance"

You are nice and friendly, and work together in a professional way, But you say goodbye at 5:00 and are not involved in each other's personal lives.

[Vanilla]

Wonks gives great advice, please go with her advice.

If it truly is NC then interactions will be limited, anyway to S.

Regards

Vanilla

[HPoirot]

Thank you wonka, Claire, and vanilla. I will do business like acquaintance. When she comes today to get s11, I'll stand with him, give him a hug, and send him to her. I'll look happy like I'm about to have a great day and then I will.

[adinva]

You two need a written separation agreement so youre both crystal clear on how S's time is divided and whether/how changes will be handled.

Your W has a legitimate frustration with you, if you wont communicate with her she had to go thru S to ask to drive him to school. If she has no custody, this was a very reasonable way to get a chance to parent her son.

If you have a clear agreement you can filter out the unnecessary requests from her to talk about every single little thing. And you'll both understand what constitutes an emergency. And you wont have to think of her twice a day to get s to call her, because she'll know if he is ok because you did NOT call, because there was nothing wrong. And she can call S and he can refuse her calls because their relationship is between them, not through you.

More clarity and written agreement will help your w calm down and facilitate your detachment. This case by case stuff will make you both crazy.

[SunnyB]

You two need a written separation agreement so youre both crystal clear on how S's time is divided and whether/how changes will be handled.

If you have a clear agreement you can filter out the unnecessary requests from her to talk about every single little thing.

Couldn't agree more. H and I have a non-legal S agreement that spells out the parenting schedule. As long as we both stick to the schedule, no contact is needed. Any schedule changes are made between us and don't go through D12, keeps her out of the middle.

[Wonka]

Ad,

You do raise valid points. I'm not too sure if a SA is the best way at this moment as all of this is new for HP and W. Right now the focus is for HP and s11 to forge a new routine together at the condo.

I would add that there are several DBers making things work without a SA in place. I think it is important for HP and W be given the chance to collaborate on an informal basis. If over time, things become too difficult and intractable, then it would be advisable for HP to move forward with a formal SA.

All of this is new...fer cryin' out loud....they've just moved to the condo TWO days ago.

[HPoirot]

Journaling...

Our first business-like exchange of S11. We came down in the elevator and walked outside. I saw W in her in her rental car a ways away. I gave s11 a hug... told him "I love you" to have a great day... and sent him over to his mom. Then I walked the other way to my car. From behind me I heard W brightly say "Hello HP." I turned and said "hey" I think.

As I was walking to my car... I heard a car horn behind me. I turned and it was W driving up.

She yelled out the window "Can you pick up S11 today from school?"

So another change.

"You said you were picking him up."

"I have a meeting."

"OK."

Sat in the car and watched them drive away.

Later, when I got back to the condo, I'm ashamed to say I cried for a couple minutes.

...

For the future and S11... I can just walk up to my W and say hello in a businesslike way. Be friendly like I was doing most times when we lived together. I can look stronger than I've been being since I moved into the condo. I can look more attractive b/c that's how I want to be in general.

I've noticed how I'm wanting to take a break from being an LBH. I'm not keeping my morning and evening disciplines and I'm not eating healthy. That and I'm drinking in the evening again. Not attractive.

Being here away from her doesn't mean that I stop doing what has been working for me in rebuilding my life. I'll take a nap now to reenergize and then get back into it.

[Vapo]

Dude,

keep your chit together. Think of your son, he needs a strong and confidant father. You are doing great and crying is nothing to be ashamed of. You are a human being with feelings, you are not a rock.

I think you need some midterm goals to keep your focus. Until your condo move that was your focus and you directed your actions accordingly. Find a new focus ASAP. And lay off the bottle. Your son needs the best father, bring your A game now. I know you have it, you showed you have it, time to shine now!

[HPoirot]

Thank you Adinva for your advice. We do have a written but not legal schedule for this month. I should also say, my W knows she can text me about S11. She could have simply texted me her request and I would have answered as I do on any reasonable S11 question. She knows full well I do not want to hear from her right now as I have told her and moved out on her even though she wanted us to stay together. I have consistently declined her phone calls for a while now. She calls and texts me often just to get a response. And then, after all her screaming and contacting S11 to get to drive S11 to and from school today, she now says she can't get s11 from school today.

It's very frustrating b/c she points to me like I'm the bad guy. I'm the one disrupting s11s school year... his holiday... his life. I'm the bad one b/c I don't answer her calls or treat her nicely or talk to her when she wants to talk. As Sandi said, she plays on my guilt b/c, despite all I've done to turn this sitch around, she knows I'm a good man who doesn't want to do any of these things. She knows I'm sad and hurt especially b/c I'm not showing it. She knows why I won't talk to her or see her while she acts like nothing is wrong. She has left me with S11 countless times on her business trips and has often said how he and the house are better kept when I'm doing it. She knows if anything happened to s11, she would be the first to know. She knows if I don't say anything that nothing is wrong. She calls and S11 doesn't answer for a reason.

We keep reminding her by what we do and the way we feel that she is wrong and hurting us and she hates that. That's her frustration... not that she can't get the message to me that she want's to drive s11 to school and back. I won't pretend with her. She ignores S11 texts about how our family is broken and his life is over and then expects him to hug her on demand or be impressed with her rental car or be happy she says she'll get him a new cat in her new apartment.

Anyway... you are right. There no reason to argue these things with her. A more formal agreement would help.

[SunnyB]

If over time, things become too difficult and intractable, then it would be advisable for HP to move forward with a formal SA.

All of this is new...fer cryin' out loud....they've just moved to the condo TWO days ago.

Wonka, I think there is a misunderstanding about a S agreement. The way I have done it, anyway. I had one in place before S. Not because things were adversarial, just to manage expectations. I didn't see the advantage of waiting until things fell apart before I addressed them. It doesn't have to be formal, mine's not. It's written, but not legal. It's just a plan, it's not the big deal it seems to be to some people.

It's like making a new year's resolution and writing it down. Not binding, not formal, but a plan that everyone knows about. Rules we can all play by to make our lives go smoother.

Maybe just the term "S agreement" is too formal itself. Maybe I should come up with a different term that has less baggage attached.

[Starsky309]

HP,

Have you considered a Cozi family calendar? Online, easy to use and tons of separated and divorced families use them successfully to manage the details of their kids' schedules and such.


Starsky

[Vanilla]

Ad,

You do raise valid points. I'm not too sure if a SA is the best way at this moment as all of this is new for HP and W. Right now the focus is for HP and s11 to forge a new routine together at the condo.

I would add that there are several DBers making things work without a SA in place. I think it is important for HP and W be given the chance to collaborate on an informal basis. If over time, things become too difficult and intractable, then it would be advisable for HP to move forward with a formal SA.

All of this is new...fer cryin' out loud....they've just moved to the condo TWO days ago.

I agree with Wonka here HP. Gently does it and see how it works out over time. Be easy on yourself and S.

Starsky idea is lovely as an online communication tool and very practical, you could try that by saying this is how I intend to schedule so we are both aware of S and his activities. Then misunderstandings between us need not arise.

Loving the attitude that puts S first in your life. You can encourage him to talk to mom but don't force. It will all be tested by W over time.

(((Hugs))))
Vanilla

[SunnyB]

HP,

Have you considered a Cozi family calendar?


Starsky

Vote for Cozi!!! We have been using it for years. We all have the ap on our phones.

[Mozza]

HPoirot: I really like your latest analysis. Very perceptive. She's making you the bad guy because it fits her current state of mind, but in successful sitches, WAS have come around and all of this played against them when they realize how unfair they've been, how solid the LBS have been. Keep at it, it will pay in the long run.

[SunnyB]

I'm not too sure if a SA is the best way at this moment as all of this is new for HP and W.

I agree with Wonka here HP.

This will be the last time I bring this up, pinky promise. But it seems to me the difference in opinion about a S agreement has to do with whether we've experienced shared parenting or not. Am I right in seeing that Wonka and Vanilla don't have minor children that sharing applies to and Adinva and I do? If so, maybe that's the difference. It's just a perspective thing. And in the end, it doesn't matter. HP needs to choose what works for him.

HP, you are doing great. Hang in there.

[Mozza]

Just chiming in here: I've two kids (D6 and D3) and no written agreement of any sort. Everything falls into place with W and we always abide by what we promise. She wants the S to be cordial and not only am I a reliable person, but I DB. ;-)

[Wonka]

I'm not too sure if a SA is the best way at this moment as all of this is new for HP and W.

I agree with Wonka here HP.

This will be the last time I bring this up, pinky promise. But it seems to me the difference in opinion about a S agreement has to do with whether we've experienced shared parenting or not. Am I right in seeing that Wonka and Vanilla don't have minor children that sharing applies to and Adinva and I do? If so, maybe that's the difference. It's just a perspective thing. And in the end, it doesn't matter. HP needs to choose what works for him.

HP, you are doing great. Hang in there.

RPP,

We are pretty good with breaking some pinky promises.

Yeah , I don't have kids and do respect the opinions of parents here. However, it doesn't stop me form being the voice of reason and caution when reading some situations. In my mind, I do not believe that HP coming right at W with a SA at this stage is the best route for it WILL raise W's hackles and cause her to view HP negatively because they have NOT yet have tried to figure this out among themselves first.

Now is not the time to go gangbusters on W and make everyone unhappy. I really like Starsky's suggestion because it allows them to try this out without resorting to SA right out of the gate.

[SunnyB]

Wonka, you are in fact the voice of reason. And I will not break my pinky promise. I'm done. Carry on.

[raliced]

Hi HP,

You sound like you have a lot going on and are handling it well under difficult circumstances.

Please forgive the unsolicited advice - but I was catching up on your thread and read the part about the credit repair agency. HP- please listen to Wonka and Starsky on this one. This is an area in which I have some professional experience (and have volunteered in the past helping people with their credit situations). Please give a second thought to hiring a credit repair agency. They can and do sometimes make a situation worse. You can do everything they could do on your behalf , by yourself. Starsky was right on about his "myfico" recommendation. Spend some time on that board, and you will get a wealth of helpful information.

Good Luck!

[HPoirot]

Journaling...

My emotions are catching up with me again. The happiness and even satisfaction I felt just a couple days ago seems far away. I cried again today and the shakes are back. I haven't cried in days. This is awful. Yes Vapo it seems now that I've relaxed a little with no big goal to work towards... I'm starting to feel alone and hopeless here in the condo. Resting it seems is not at all good for me. That, and I don't feel like GALing or doing anything right no.

My OW from years ago called me again this morning. She mentioned how, when we were in our A fantasy, should could have never imagined she would return to her M much less make the compromises she has made to make it work. She mentioned how she stopped calling me to detach (we had an ocean between us at the time) and it took months for her, and a trip to an L to see how expensive and painful a D would be, to get over us and back into her M. And this was without her H knowing about our PA. Without MC as her H refused to go. It was hard and it is still hard for her working on her R. She makes her own happiness now without relying on her H for it as he still comes up short in emotional connection. She's being strong enough to accept her choices.

I can't see my W being that strong. Especially as her fantasy world is only an hour's drive away. I would have to do a lot this year to be a man only a fool would leave in her eyes. To make it a natural choice for her to stay. To change in ways that are authentic to me so I won't always be dancing to keep her happy. It's going to be hard work for us to rebuild our family. She's right now only interested in going out, having fun, drinking, and being taken care of like a queen.

And already I dislike her on the 3rd day of being away from her. I've read other sitches where time and space started to heal feelings enough for the WAS to start wanting small contacts even while in an A. I want to get to that... where I'm calm enough to be around her without feeling fury or needing to win an engagement. So, I'll just go day to day here and start GALing again until I feel better. I will continue to remember to act with grace and calm like I know I should. I'll remember not to punish her for any of this even while she's acting like she's done nothing for me to feel angry about.

I just don't feel like doing any of that right now.

[Mozza]

I can't see my W being that strong. Especially as her fantasy world is only an hour's drive away. I would have to do a lot this year to be a man only a fool would leave in her eyes. To make it a natural choice for her to stay. To change in ways that are authentic to me so I won't always be dancing to keep her happy. It's going to be hard work for us to rebuild our family. She's right now only interested in going out, having fun, drinking, and being taken care of like a queen.

You know you're describing my W to a T? It's down to the nickname OM gives her (my queen). Then she brags about increasing her tolerance to alcohol and going out late. You call it a fantasy world for a reason. I don't know if our W will return but I see HOW it could happen and you seem to lose track of this. The way you behave now appears outstanding and when your W sobers up, she'll see you for the man you are. It's already a huge improvement on who you were in the M. Now you'll be a good father and you'll make other changes. You'll be positioned for a good life, with her or not, and she will see that. Just keep doing what you're doing, set a new goal for yourself (post-condo). And let time do its work.

[adinva]

I just want to clarify, because there was some misunderstanding of what I meant. It hadn't occurred to me that he might present a completed one to W and upset her. My H presented a DRAFT to me and it was just how he saw things so I could bounce off it my own ideas and we'd negotiate an agreement. That's why I said "agreement." If you think it's better not to try to sit down and clarify what you're each expecting, so you're not handling one-offs all the time and upsetting each other, that's fine. I was glad to have some kind of understanding of what my H intended to do, even tho I didn't like what he was doing and even tho some of his draft terms are ridiculous. It's the beginning of a conversation.

If HP you have a history of just telling it like it's going to be and no negotiation, then doing that to your child's mom about how you're going to each take care of your child, is probably a bad idea.

I meant you two sit down and clarify expectations together.

If my H had taken my kids and moved out, I'd have had a lawyer and the police in a heartbeat getting them back. So I may be erring on the side of demonstrating fairness in parenting.

But I'm not going to continue pushing the idea past this clarification. It's obviously your decision and up to what you can handle in dealing with your W.

[jim0987]

HP.

My wife and I agreed childcare arrangements and I drew it up into a draft separation agreement. Basically its the divorce settlement.

She has had the draft a while but I've not had any comments - in fact at the moment it only gets mentioned as part of any spew.

It works well because it manages expectations. Yes it freed W up for time with OM but at the same time I've been able to plan my life. No its not what I want but its only not needed if my wife suddenly changes her mind

[SunnyB]

I meant you two sit down and clarify expectations together.

Well...yeah...me too. But I can't say that 'cause I pinky promised.

[HPoirot]

Thank you everyone for your advice on schedules. When I broke it to my W that S11 and I would be moving to the condo without her... giving her the separation she had been threatening for 2 months... I made it clear that we would share time with s11. I asked her then to send me her thoughts on a schedule. At first was very angry and tearfully accused me of trying to take her boy and of thinking of suing her for full custody. After a bit, she seemed to accept everything I said about the move to the condo and not having Christmas together. At that point she sent me an email detailing a "tentative" schedule for s11 and for sharing the car. Then she somehow got a rental car for this week only she says. I agreed with most of what she suggested. The agreement wasn't a problem as I left it up to her and she was pretty fair. The problem came last night when she suddenly wanted to take s11 to and from school.

Interestingly, that may have turned out to be a good thing...

This evening, when I went to go get S11 from school, the car wouldn't start. I was really feeling tested. I called the school to let them know s11 would be picked up late. Then I called W for the first time in a while to ask her to go pick up s11. She sounded very businesslike and, despite saying she couldn't before, was able to leave to get him.

She sent a text... "In car. There in twenty!"

40 minutes later she called to say she got s11 from school. She made sure to tell me there was traffic and and accident so that's why she was late. Then she said S11 was sad. Saw that he has not been eating much lunch b/c he is sad. She got concerned and called me a few times about it on her drive with him to the condo. Talked about getting him a different lunch. Talked about picking me up in the rental car to get the HDTV from the old house into the condo so he can play his games. Everything except why he's sad.

She dropped him off here and he came up in the elevator. I could see he was very sad. Talking about all he wants for Christmas is his family to be together. She called me again then an asked if he was still sad. I fought the urge to tell her how angry I was with her and her selfishness. She asked if she could take him home with her. I told her to ask him and gave him the phone. He told her no.

Then, b/c the car won't work, she offered to take him to school and then pick him up and take him to his bball practice tomorrow. I told her to go ahead. I think it will be good for her to see how he really is. Not that it would change anything. The W I knew before would have never left her son feeling sadness like this. It is not at all encouraging to see her do this. She is accepting we're all going to be miserable and we'll just have to suck it up so she can do what she's doing.

I set up his xbox on the old tv here and he was able to play his games. It cheered him up for a second. Now he's turned it off and is wandering around the condo looking sad. I'm going to warm up the lasagne and try to make tonight better for him.

I hate this.

[Vanilla]

Go sit with S, give him a warm hug, tell him you love him.

Hold, squeeze then tickle.

Just sit together watching TV , playing a game, drinking hot chocolate.

Be still and love, then have a pillow fight

Vanilla

[HPoirot]

Thank you Vanilla... we did sit together and watch some tv... a Matrix movie. He had lots of questions and we had a good time. We'll do a pillow fight as soon as he gets out of the shower. Great idea thank you.

I'm really amazed at your positivity Vanilla. I want to be much more like you that way. So, I'm remembering advice to focus solely on myself and my growth. I'm committed to doing that b/c I know it's the best thing for me and S11. I know I say these things over and over... it's to remind myself. I want to get back to where I was a couple nights ago... full of excitement over my chance at a new life. I admit it's a challenge to keep my mind there right now. I wonder why I tend to wallow in crap thoughts that don't serve me or my purpose when I know better. It's like I constantly have to choose my thoughts.

Committed then to choosing the thoughts that serve me tomorrow... Day #4.

And tonight I'm going to start a new tradition. I'm going to pray with my son.

Thank you again Vanilla.

[GoatGal]

HP--just catching up. I was thinking about you the last couple of days, sending you strength to get through this move.

One day at a time.

I'm proud of you!


Your Pal,

The Goat Gal

[HPoirot]

Thank you so much GG. That you would send me strength means so much to me. I really needed that just now. I'm looking at my son and he's happy watching this Matrix movie with me. Asking so many great questions. They were' talking about purpose in the movie. I just told him he's my purpose... my reason for being here. I hope he always remembers this time with me as joyful. I'm really trying my best here. I told him that too as we were eating dinner at the table. He was being so helpful tonight... clearing the table without me asking... getting me a napkin. He's trying so hard to help me. I'm afraid I'm showing him too much of my weakness. I started to cry just now so I left the room. I'm still so hurt and trying so hard to hide it from him and myself and my W everyday. He tells me "your eyes are so red dad... are you OK?" I can't let him see me like this. I'll wash my face and pray with him and put him to bed. And when he's asleep I'll cry then. I'm not strong on my own right now. I want to be. Just not right now. Thank you GG for sending me your strength. I'll be better in the morning.

[Wonka]

HP,

It's okay to give yourself permission to fall apart privately in the privacy of your own space. It is an impossible standard to be strong all the time. Otherwise I'd worry about you.

[MCS]

Just remember, you're here. If you weren't strong, you wouldn't be doing what you are doing. You're fighting for what you believe in, and that takes strength. Crying doesn't mean that you are weak, but sometimes just the opposite. That you are doing the things that are most difficult when no one is making you do them. That's because you are strong. Being emotional about it just gives you conviction in standing for what you are doing. I pray with my kids most days about while we don't know what the plan is for us, it will be a great plan because we all are loved.

[GoatGal]

Yeah, HP--you've been though an awful lot these last few weeks.

Just read back through your threads...what a powerful change.
You're in a new chapter of your life and it is going to be emotional for you.

You've had to hold it together for a long time, you should let it out.
I think it's fine for your son to see this. What a great opportunity to show him that tears don't mean you're not a man, or that you're out of control.

Tears can mean you're sad, even while you're being brave, and that's what the two of you are doing, right?

You can tell your boy that crying means you have stuff inside that needs to come out, because if you hold it in all the time, it hurts you. Letting it out with someone you trust can help you feel better.

And maybe encourage him to talk about HIS feelings, he's got to be experiencing a lot of conflicting emotions right now--since you have learned some validation skills, you can let him express his sadness and concern about the future in the safety of your love for him.

You're gonna be fine.


((Hugs))))

[Mozza]

I want to add my voice to all of those who say that crying is fine, especially what MCS said about being strong for taking the difficult path despite the pain. I probably come across as an optimist on these boards, but would you know that I've cried every day, several times a day, for nearly 3.5 months now? That's from someone who didn't cry in the previous couple of years at least. We all have to process these powerful emotions — stuff that ranks up there in terms of human trial — and crying is one of the healthiest way of doing so; much better than alcohol, violence and spending. I'm very impressed with what you've done over the last few weeks. It takes tremendous strength.

[Little]

Oh, I cry all the time. I told a very wise IC about it once, feeling upset that I cry at EVERYTHING and I feel like it's because I can't handle my emotions. The response was, "So what? So you cry."

There's some zen in that, let me tell you.

[Vanilla]

"Only the strong have the strength to cry, the rest only weep bitter tears,
Pray for your end, let it come to you that it may be
Swiftly that you may know courage in the face of battle
For then you are brave in victory"

The battle cry written on the wall of our local club

You are doing vey well, tears are a part of PMA if they are a release, a means of moving forward not staying stuck. A way of leaving regret and hurt, a means of love.

Vanilla

[HPoirot]

Text from W around 10:30... "I am so sorry for ruining our lives." I was asleep and didn't respond. Then a couple hours later long texts about s11's logistics tomorrow and Christmas gifts for him.

So I don't jump on "I'm so sorry" texts like this from her? Thes are not opportunities to reason with her b/c there's no convincing her right? I just keep going and get no encouragement that she would send that. And I see she's still not sleeping well being up at midnight. Doesn't matter.

Thank you for your help. Going back to sleep.

[HPoirot]

On my last post... I know there's no reasoning with her. Words mean nothing. So there's no response to her " I'm sorry" texts. I don't even think about why she sends them. I can't respond and give her the idea that I'm still hoping for R/M. She has to understand that I'm gone and not even mad. She has to see that I'm no longer thinking of her.

I know this is I long way from here if it ever comes... But what should I look for from her that may be encouraging?

[HPoirot]

Starting on my day now. I really want today, Day #4, to be a great and productive day. I'm still having trouble, though, with my W contacting me...

I sent S11 out to her as she picked him up this morning to take him to school. I did not go out. Since then she has called me 3 times without leaving a VM. Now she texts me "Please call me." I had my phone in the next room so I just got notifications of all this just now.

I know this is a ridiculous thing to be stuck on. We're all here trying to get more contact with our WAS and I'm here pissed about my W contacting me too much.

I'm thinking calling her yesterday to pick up S11 was a mistake. Even though it was an emergency, I should have texted her instead.

Is it too much to ask that she texts me what she wants to talk about or leaves a VM? I feel like a baby asking this... but she not respecting that I do not want to hear from her. I gave her a "don't call unless it's an emergency" boundary yet she still just keeps calling and leaving these text messages to call her about what I don't know.

I will answer her questions from late late last night via text. Other than that, I want to call her and yell at her a lot. I won't but I want to.

Ok I'm remembering to not let myself get moved off center by her actions. I'm sure she wouldn't call unless it was important. It's up to me to not react to her at all.

I'll figure this out.

[Mozza]

From here, it looks like she's just trying to assert control. You state a boundary and she tramples over it. When she sees that she's losing, she backs off to save face. Something tells me you'll know when there is an emergency. In the meantime, it's perfectly fine to ignore her and enforce your boundary. She'll learn.

You mention that other LBS are hoping for more contacts, but it's for different situations. In your case, it seems the normal DB course to go dark until OM is out of the picture.

By the way, three months into my separation and there's never been an emergency for my two young daughters. Sadness is not an emergency.

[HPoirot]

Thank you Mozza. I'm really feeling embarrassed about being stuck here this after all the weeks all real trouble with my W to get to this point.

I think this is important though. I do not want to hear from her and I can't have her feeling like I'm happily tolerating her behavior and this situation by being readily accessible. At the same time, I don't want to seem like I'm bitter or hiding from her. I know that, if I'm looking like I'm detached and not caring what she's doing, then I should just answer her call, hear what she says, and then dismiss her.

From all I've learned here, it seems the right thing to do is just follow up with her with a text like "What is it?" a few hours after her text. Then just expect her to be upset again. Rinse and repeat. Concerned again that all this keeps pushing her away. But then there's her "I'm sorry" text where she says she has ruined "our" lives. She can't possibly feel like she ruining her life though? Whatever... I know it doesn't matter what she says. I just want to have a great day today so let me finally get to it.

For those who know... is her contacting me like this and expecting me to be accessible expected? Do I combat this or just learn to live with it while it lasts?

Thank you.

[sandi2]

If you feel this is pushing her away, what is your alternative.....that does not break your own boundaries?

Again, this is still your guilt working overtime. She has done a number on you! Plus, you are not detached enough or you would not get stuck over these issues. The next time she shoots one of her texts saying to call her or that she needs to talk to you, text her back right then and tell her that you are reminding her of your boundary about contacts and if she has some emergency, she needs to text it or leave a VM. Then you will determine if you need to respond.

You are beating yourself up over something that should not consume this much attention. And forget what she said about being sorry for ruining lives. She's done this before, then turn around and cut you to ribbons. Ignore it, HP. She is a manipulator! She will pull tricks out of her bag to get you back to where you were when she was in charge.

Right now, this about her wanting to be in control. It is not about her wanting to reconcile the M. She is not going to give up that control easily, but she must give it up in order to respect you. As long as she was sleeping with OM while you kept S11 at home, she was in control and had no respect for you. Now she feels very much out of control and she will use whatever means necessary to regain it.

[adinva]

How did you reassert the boundary about emergencies? I'm wondering if you were extremely clear and objective. If so, you would already know what to do, imo.

If I could make a suggestion, it would be this:

W, I am only going to communicate with you about emergencies to do with S. (note - boundary setting is about what you are going to do, not about what you want HER to do. She will, and can, continue to do what she is doing. How you respond is what you control.) So, W, if you call me I will not answer. If you text me what the emergency to do with S is, I will respond if it is in fact an emergency. If you do not text specifics, I will consider it not an emergency and will not respond.

That is what I would consider really clear. And that would inform you whether to respond to "I'm really sorry" texts (no, and don't give it a moment's thought) or to "call me" texts (no, because you are being ambushed with non-emergencies). or to "I want to know how S is doing" (no, because she knows how to reach S directly).

I agree she's trying to exert control over the situation, and any wishy washiness you exhibit is going to make your life more miserable.

I will leave it to the vets who know these types of situations, but yes, you should have an idea in your mind about what would constitute a change in W that she wants to reconcile and/or has dropped the OM completely. That is obviously complicated because you refuse to take her calls. However, you can be sure that in 4 days that has not happened. Take a specific amount of time, at a minimum, to get your space. 90 days sounds appropriate to me.

[HPoirot]

Thank you Sandi for setting me straight again on my guilt. Yes I see what you are saying that I'm not detached enough as I'm letting her calls and needs affect me so much. She feels she knows what I want to hear and will keep trying to get me to talk or feel bad for her so I will agree to drop my self respect to act like a family so she can feel better about what she's doing. Yes once I let her in like that she will try to feed me crumbs to get back in control and even get in the condo. I can't let her believe that she right in thinking I'm sitting here waiting to run to her if she calls.

So, next time I'll immediately text her... "Hello W. Got your text. If you're having an emergency with S11, please text me all about it or leave me a VM. Thanks."

[Little]

W, I am only going to communicate with you about emergencies to do with S. (note - boundary setting is about what you are going to do, not about what you want HER to do. She will, and can, continue to do what she is doing. How you respond is what you control.) So, W, if you call me I will not answer. If you text me what the emergency to do with S is, I will respond if it is in fact an emergency. If you do not text specifics, I will consider it not an emergency and will not respond.

That is what I would consider really clear. And that would inform you whether to respond to "I'm really sorry" texts (no, and don't give it a moment's thought) or to "call me" texts (no, because you are being ambushed with non-emergencies). or to "I want to know how S is doing" (no, because she knows how to reach S directly).

^^^^^^^^^

[Vanilla]

W, I am only going to communicate with you about emergencies to do with S. (note - boundary setting is about what you are going to do, not about what you want HER to do. She will, and can, continue to do what she is doing. How you respond is what you control.) So, W, if you call me I will not answer. If you text me what the emergency to do with S is, I will respond if it is in fact an emergency. If you do not text specifics, I will consider it not an emergency and will not respond.

That is what I would consider really clear. And that would inform you whether to respond to "I'm really sorry" texts (no, and don't give it a moment's thought) or to "call me" texts (no, because you are being ambushed with non-emergencies). or to "I want to know how S is doing" (no, because she knows how to reach S directly).

^^^^^^^^^

Count me in!

[Mozza]

I often see couples here, both LBS and WAS, using the kids as an excuse to be in touch or to control. The supreme well-being of the kids. I see it in your sitch, as W wants to have several reports a day on S11 moods. In my opinion, each parent is trusted to take care of the kids. My W and I almost never exchange about the kids during the week and, really, there's no need. So, D3 has a cold. What can I do? Nothing. I thought my W was a good mom before the S and I left my kids with her while I would be on business trips. I trust her equally now.

I don't even buy this "provide a good Christmas" thing that I see across the threads. Perhaps it's because my kids are made of Teflon and don't seem to be bothered much by the separation so far. Anyway, my W was going to spend the Holidays abroad anyway and I'd be alone with them. A Christmas without both parents is a normal thing for millions of people. If the kids are concerned, provide reassurance, but don't go thinking that it will scar them for life. Sooner or later, they'll spend Christmas without both parents. Don't feel guilty and don't give your S11 the impression that it's a terrible thing, like W seems to suggest. It's a new life and you'll make the best of it.

[Dawn70]

Thanks for stopping by my thread and offering your comments. I have been reading/keeping up with your sitch and I can't offer much advice. I am keeping you in my thoughts and prayers as it seems you struggle with boundaries with your WAW. Take care and keep enjoying your time with your S.

[sandi2]

I think she is absolutely using S11 as her excuse to contact.

You've heard some of us talk about how the WAW in an A should feel remorse, etc. In the case with your W, it does not seem that difficult for her to apologize, as she has done this from time to time. However, this is not the same as what we have referred to as her remorse...enough to want to R. I just wanted to clarify, in case you were hung up over her saying she was sorry for ruining your lives. In other words, it does not mean she is at the point of wanting to dump OM and make amends in her M. She is not giving a sign of wanting to R.

The difference is, she is still reacting out of a lot of emotions and she's still manipulating. Okay, I've already stated that much. So let me add this, the first step to watch for, IMO, is when she backs down and gets quite and starts respecting your boundaries. When she stop with the control BS. When she STFU and starts thinking about what she has done. When she begins to approach you softly, instead of demanding. I would look for those signs before expecting her to approach you with what it would take to reconcile. JMHO.

[HeavyD]

What is KISS - I get STFU but KISS? Acronym means?

[Vanilla]

Keep it Sweet (and) Simple or Short (and) Simple

There is a more expletive version!

Vanilla

[JCred]

HP,
I guess I don't understand why you don't just text back or call back when necessary...

The key to getting a wayward back isn't whether you go no contact or not.. The key is NO PURSUIT.. Happy, confident, emotionally stable...

Regarding texts... Text back and tell her you are BUSY and you will text back later.... That's all you have to do. Then later just text back and answer her question... Short and to the point...

Regarding calls.. If she asks you to call, just text back that you ARE BUSY and will call her later around (give her an approximate time).... Then do just that (or once in a while don't call back and tell her you forgot) .. Do some small talk, get to the point, then YOU HANG UP FIRST.. BUSY MAN.. BUSY CONFIDENT MAN...

Confident men aren't wishy washy... Confident men don't worry about things like this.. Either set her straight, ignore her or call her and make it short and sweet..

Just call her back..... "Hey, what's up? What do you want?..
Ok, will do. I am right in the middle of something, talk to you later, bye.."


Don't reveal how you feel about her. If she asks, just tell her you haven't thought about it or you don't know how you feel right now.. Then change the subject.

If you don't learn to talk to her now, then if she comes back how are you going to be able to handle it? She is who she is... She seems like she likes to talk..

The whole key here is you acting like an emotionally mature man who can handle whatever life throws his way. It's a whole attitude and demeanor... This is good practice for you. Take advantage of it.. This really is no big deal unless you make it one..

If you keep the pressure off of trying to get back together, then it won't matter whether you text or talk....

Confidence, emotional strength, and I can handle it attitude...

You can do this...

[Vapo]

And there I was thinking it was the rock band KISS. :-D

[Sotto]

Is this day no 1 of 90 days NC? We should have a competition! I aim to go dark right over Xmas. NC until at least the New Year....

[Little]

I'll join said competition! I haven't talked to BF since last Thursday, the 11th! LOL!

It's ON!

[HPoirot]

I'm really trying to go NC. I'm on day #4 but have yet to go a day without finding a way to keep W from contacting me. So I'm losing so far but will find a way to go one day without hearing from her.

[adinva]

NC is about you not listening to her. No one can make her stop trying to contact you. Put your effort where you have some control, ie your reactions.

[Mozza]

Us with kids shouldn't be in this competition or at least we should have special rules. I also hope for days when W doesn't contact me but so far I've only had one in the last 2-3 weeks. There's always a little something. It's nothing like yours though: our interactions are cordial. Still, they are distracting and I feel she reads into any interactions: too little and she's upset, too much and she's reassured. I just let go and that's why I rarely report on them here. It's a marathon.

[sandi2]

I agree with this^^, HP. You can't stop her from trying to contact you. If you could, I bet you would have done it sooner. Your reaction is all you get to control here. All you can do is what has already been suggested about reminding her of your boundary and leaving a text or VM. You can choose to not respond and/or ignore her.

Now seriously, you need to get on to something else. You are obsessing over this a bit, don't you think? Of course, I suppose a woman like her could make anyone break out in hives at the thought of another contact.

[HPoirot]

Yes thank you adinva, sandi, and everyone. You're right I can only control how I react to her contacting me. I cannot control when... and now how... she contacts me...

I saw a call from my W and then immediately from S11 just now. He's out with him mom all evening since school for his bball practice. I think it's good for her to get time with him to see how he's really doing and to keep her calm. (Also, while he was out with her, I did not contact her to ask how he was doing to show her how that's done.)

So, I called S11 back and my W answered. She used his phone to get me to talk. Says with a tone she's upset with me b/c I haven't answered my phone or responded to her texts like she expects. I took the opportunity to calmly tell her to leave a VM or text with details when she needs to reach me and I would get back to her. Then we agreed to where he would sleep tomorrow night (with me) so he can get his science project done. I noted my tone of voice had a little displeasure and impatience in it. I'm not helping myself with that. Remembering to talk to her like a neighbor.

So yes seriously I need to get back to focusing on my growth again. This first week has been rough but I made it that way by focusing again too much on her and her calling/texting. It's good to know I can change that by changing my focus and getting back to my PMA discipline.

I see I can't keep her from being angry with me as I continue on this path of limited contact. I admit it would be nice to see her soften and respect my contact boundary more often. Like when she was acting mostly nice and transparent our last few weeks living together.

I know that's a long way from today, though. We're not screaming at each other b/c I'm not rising to her challenges. But I feel we're so against each other. If I think about it, which I should not, I find that discouraging.

I don't want to be like this with her. But I do see how my actions are training her how to treat me right. They worked to get her to stop her overnights and lying while me and s11 were still in the house. They worked to get me and s11 here to the condo peacefully after her screaming and threats. My actions will work again to teach her to communicate respectfully.

She knows she's wrong and she's learning how to behave again b/c I'm not folding when she misbehaves. She asks me about every step we take with S11 and finances and nothing she has tried has made me budge since I turned this around.

Just now have to get back to rebuilding my mojo and to really not care about her bad choices when I speak or meet with her. Time to make some wins for myself.

S11 will be with her this weekend. I'll go to the gym to swim some laps and lift some iron. I'll start working on my business again. Plan at least one fun GAL with S11 for next week. Maybe rock climbing. I'll be back again even stronger and I'll do it quick too.

Feeling better right now. S11 will be home in 45 minutes. I'm washing clothes and will iron his school uniform. Clean up the kitchen. Make the condo nice and calm and comfy for both of us. Just keep going.

Onward.

[adinva]

Your actions are not really to teach her anything. That's not really your place. Your actions are to take control of how you will respond and what you will request and expect.

If she learns anything from it it is up to her.

I know that goes against the saying "you teach people how to treat you," but I think in your case it might be helpful not to look at it as you teaching (aka controlling) her behavior. It's not your place.

I think of it as more "you communicate through your behavior how you will be effectively approached."

[Pink17]

Hi HP,

This is the way, mind your own self and the things you can control.

Your son is also learning to be a better person as you as his role model.

We all know how hard it has been for you since the beginning but you have been learning a lot and is became a man only a fool will leave.

Your W is noticing your changes and that's is maybe why she is behaving so badly. She is trying to understand what is going on and is probably reading on every action or silence that comes from you right now. It is probably confusing her.

She was in a good place when she took the decision to ask you for the D. But she does not have a clear direction any more. She knows she broke the family, her son is not with her all the time, she can see you are moving on with your life without her in the picture and she is full of guilt.

Combine all the ingredients and you have an unbalanced person, with lots of doubts, but again it is not your problem. You do not have any control over her thoughts and actions. You control yourself only.

You know, I have been feeling better too. I feel like I am getting my life back under control. I still have days with mixed feeling, anxious, but nothing like before when I cried no stop.

Hope you find peace within yourself always, you are a good person and a very good dad. Keep up the hard work.

Hugs,
Pink

[HPoirot]

Thank you so much Pink for your very very kind words. It means a lot that good people here say I'm a good person and a good dad. Sometimes when I'm dealing with my W I feel like a hard man. Even so, I'm trying really hard for my son. He came home just now so sad.

I knew he would have some extra stuff to carry so I figured my W would come with him up the elevator. I met them there. She looked tired and stressed. I figured she would b/c she spent hours with s11 tonight and would have seen him sad. Also that she was expecting to see me and I'm not looking happy to see her these days. Once again, I did not look friendly. I have an emotional wall against her now and I know I'm looking at her very critically. I'm angry about what she's doing. I'm angry that my son is sad.

She handed me his bag without a greeting (I didn't greet her either) and we talked briefly about S11. She wanted to drop him off with me tomorrow evening to finish his project... then pick him up later that night to stay with her overnight. I said to let's let me stay the night with me (as we already agreed) and she could take him to school on Friday and take him to stay with her from there. She then asked S11 what he wanted to do. I struggled to keep my fury in check. He mumbled something. She asked to talk with S11 alone and I left them.

S11 came into the condo a little later. Very down. W then called me and I answered. She said "he seems sad." I fought not to yell at her and tell her how horrible all this is on him. She asked about logistics tomorrow, about his tuition she would have to pay, and the tax payments she would have to pay. She complained how she trying to find an apartment and a car and about her money. She talked about how he had a good bball practice. I cut the call short, thanked her, and hung up. She sounded sad as I closed the call.

I asked s11 anout his day. S11 told me W took him to our old home where he watched TV before she drove him back out here for practice. He said that they didn't really talk. He told me how sad and stressed he feels about his family and his school project. I asked if he talked about his feelings with his mom. He said no b/c he doesn't want her to worry. I encouraged him that he can talk her as he's been talking to me. I said he should talk with his mom about his feelings. Maybe I shouldn't have said that.

Still, W just called me again and I answered. I shouldn't have. She was sounding buddy buddy again. Talking about she just picked up her aunt's little Christmas tree for the condo and would drop it off tomorrow with some extra ornaments as we don't have a tree yet. I said whatever she wants to do is fine. She asked if S11 was any better. I said no he's not any better. She said please ask him to call her before he goes to bed. She said his ringer is off so he doesn't answer when she calls. I have not told her he sometimes doesn't answer her calls. I said I would and said goodbye and hung up on her.

Really time to stop showing her even a trace of my anger. Time just to stop being angry. This is her mess and I'm just going to start consistently being happy for my boy. He sees I can barely stand to be around my W right now. I'm not helping myself if there's any chance for an R here.

Wow she's calling me again...

[HPoirot]

Your actions are not really to teach her anything. That's not really your place. Your actions are to take control of how you will respond and what you will request and expect.

If she learns anything from it it is up to her.

I know that goes against the saying "you teach people how to treat you," but I think in your case it might be helpful not to look at it as you teaching (aka controlling) her behavior. It's not your place.

I think of it as more "you communicate through your behavior how you will be effectively approached."

Yes thank you so much for the reminder adinva. I admit I still take actions with intensions they will affect W... to shake her up or make her easier for me and s11 to deal with. You're right though that trying to control her is a waste of my energy and pushes her away from me. It's not my place. I will communicate the best way I can be approached. Much better thank you.

[25yearsmlc]

HP

Vis a vis your son you are doing great. Congrats!! That's huge.

Vis a vis your w, you just let her take up WAY too much space in your head/heart.

I long for the day when her texts make NO Difference in how you feel about your life, at all.

Thank you Mozza. I'm really feeling embarrassed about being stuck here this after all the weeks all real trouble with my W to get to this point.

I think this is important though. I do not want to hear from her and I can't have her feeling like I'm happily tolerating her behavior and this situation by being readily accessible.

OMG!!! Still you think this! Hey, she KNOWS you are NOT happy about anything having to do with her contacts. Trust me, She knows.....she's confused and she is in a power struggle with you. Period.

You must detach. She has the trump card of "What about my son??" And you have to get a grip on how YOU react inwardly and towards her. Tell yourself this:

"SO WHAT????"


At the same time, I don't want to seem like I'm bitter or hiding from her.


But you are in fact, hiding from her....aren't you? I mean, I get the avoiding part but mostly it's b/c you cannot handle contact from her, right? Isn't that hiding?

I know that, if I'm looking like I'm detached and not caring what she's doing, then I should just answer her call, hear what she says, and then dismiss her.

^^ Yep...

From all I've learned here, it seems the right thing to do is just follow up with her with a text like "What is it?" a few hours after her text. Then just expect her to be upset again. Rinse and repeat.

Yep...



Concerned again that all this keeps pushing her away. But then there's her "I'm sorry" text where she says she has ruined "our" lives. She can't possibly feel like she ruining her life though?

Yes she can...for an hour or a day...and then it gets to be too much and then she lashes out. NEXT!!

Detach...please dear God, detach.

Whatever... I know it doesn't matter what she says. I just want to have a great day today so let me finally get to it.

SHE is not stopping you.

For those who know... is her contacting me like this and expecting me to be accessible expected? Do I combat this or just learn to live with it while it lasts?

Thank you.

The latter....okay? Otherwise, you are doing great. Go love your son. Also, when you say things like HE is the reason you live or your purpose,

how about having an additional purpose like adventure, travel, helping others, creating something of lasting value, writing a novel, etc.?

It's not to diminish his importance but to show that you are NOT co-dependent and that you are not burdening him with all your needs.

What if he never has a child or wife? What if his wife leaves him? Will HE have no purpose?

Remember you are modeling a man who has a life, who ENJOYS life, who looks forward to it, and who has a lot going on in it.

Even if it doesn't always feel true, fake it til you become it.

(Have you watched those TED TALK videos about positive psychology? By Amy Cuddy and Shawn Achor....

you will get a lot out of them.)

[NewB3]

25yrsmlc,
Great advice and answers above! Some of the same things apply to my current sitch. Weird how all of these different stories here are almost identical. If you read a similar story, the person is going through what you have been through, or sometimes gives you insight into what is next. Unfortunately, I am not sure what is next with my story. I find hope by reading others threads.

[HPoirot]

Thank you 25 for your post and very direct comments. I did use your "SO WHAT?" suggestion when my W texted "Reconsider having Christmas together?" I see it's just what I have to do here like everything else. I don't have to like it... just do it.

Ridiculous how I feel guilt like I abandoned and hurt my W after everything that's happened. But I do and I'm hurting myself very badly. So yes I've been hiding here this week... wanting to not be her LBH for a while b/c yes I can't handle her and her behavior right now. I didn't let myself do that being so sensitive to her contacting me.

She sent another text... "I am sorry I hurt you. More than you can know." I didn't respond... not even with a truth dart. I will next time.

The couple times we looked at each other this week, her eyes were so wide and she looked at me so sad like she wanted something. Otherwise, we don't even say hello to each other. Our handoffs of S11 are at a distance. I'm creating that distance. So what.

I'm still feeling a lot of pain... and my son saw me crying last night. We had a talk about how it's OK to cry and holding in your feelings only hurts more. He was going to call his mom when he saw me crying and I told him not to. Told him not to tell his mom anything about me.

He was so nice to me last night trying to help me. I ran out of alcohol the night before which was good as I was better yesterday. By the evening, though, I was hurting so badly I wanted a drink. Driving home from the grocery I was going to stop and pick up some beer. My son says, "you don't need beer to be happy dad." He told me to think of things that make me happy... the same thing I told him the first night in the condo. I didn't get the beer. Drank half of his root beer instead.

Yesterday I stopped by the old house to get the HDTV for S11. She knew I was picking up the TV. Saw her vodka bottle out and nearly empty. Saw a notepad that she listed her monthly apartment and living expenses on. It will be very tight for her. I saw that W had a new book by the bed... where she leaves the book she is currently reading... called "Love Sense." It's a book about the science of love and how to keep or recapture it in struggling long term relationships.

I fought not to mind read but did buy the book myself. Read it last night. I saw our R described in that book... how it got to where we are and how it can recover from there with help. There was a story in it about a couple where the W had and A and fell in love with the AP and wanted out of the M. The couple had similar lack of connection issues to me and W. The story showed how, with emotion focused therapy (EFT) help and time and patience, the couple recaptured passion and saved their M.

Hope has been a very dangerous thing with me in this sitch. Extremely painful. The book was very educational and a little comforting for me and I'll leave it at that.

S11 is away this weekend until Sunday evening with W. I have plans to work... to go to the gym... to get the car fixed.

I was very sad this morning, though. Cried again and felt pissed about it after. I wasn't going to post for a few days... but I find the sharing and support helps me feel stronger so here I am again.

Good thing, I find it easer to recover from sadness. Remembering to be positive, confident, and emotionally stable like jCred said in is post.

Being consistently emotionally stable is still an issue... so I do have my first IC appointment for Monday. Considering antidepressants.

I did look at the TED talks 25. I just have to remember to use the tools when needed. I do make myself smile and use positive body language... like this morning when I walked past W's car after she picked up S11. (We didn't speak again this morning.) I admit I want to reach out to her and ask her what she's thinking.

But yes, I let her take up WAY too much space in my head/heart. She threw that away.

My head/heart have better things to do.

[Sotto]

Hi HPoirot.

It sounds as though you're doing well. All very painful, but working your way through it.

Watch out there over Xmas with the alcohol intake...do you have 'dry' nights?

"Being consistently emotionally stable is still an issue"...well, I think we'll all join you on that one!!

Sounds like things could be shifting for your wife maybe??

Toots

[HPoirot]

Thank you Toots for your post. I have not thought of "dry" nights. When I was living with W, I stopped drinking to stop my major backslides and R talks. Since I've been in the condo I've wanted to relax so started again in the late evening which I see didn't help my PMA. I know I must find something to get excited about daily as I see what the drinking has done with my W.

As for my W... I can't allow myself to believe she's shifting. She does seem to be doing self-examination going to an IC and admitting her issues. But I have zero trust in her which is so very sad to me. Worse that she said I can't trust her.

So I can't allow myself to think why she has that book or what she really means when she talks about her remorse or just anything she says or does that looks positive. She even talked about still going to a couples weekend just before I left her.

It's too painful to go there so I'm working on staying positive about activities I can enjoy daily for myself and S11. I have not made that daily enjoyment happen yet.

[HPoirot]

Well... looks like I messed up...

S11 was supposed to spend this afternoon with W. He told her, though, that he was worried about me b/c I was in my room crying last night and he wanted to spend this evening with me to take care of me. He also said he felt she was hurting me. So she just dropped him off and called me to say he was coming up. She asked me how I was. I didn't say anything. I asked her how she was. She said she was worried about me and told me what S11 said. I said don't worry about me, that I would take care of S11, and let me know when she'll pick him up later tonight. I hung up. She called back twice but I didn't answer.

Funny b/c I want to speak with her very much today. Now, though, she's the very last person on the planet I can afford to talk to.

I thought I couldn't hate all this any more than I already do. I'm just going to let this go then as nothing's changed. Just can't let myself cry anywhere near my son as now he's in the middle of this even worse. What a mess. Despite everything that's happened I fail to show her I'm fine without her b/c I'm not. I'm angry and hurt and it shows and I want this to stop. This is literally hell.

[Little]

Cry in the shower. It's cathartic.

Also, go drive some place. Driving is my safe thinking spot, I sometimes drive around and just sob. It helps.

[Calibri]

Have you given up your cold showers? Maybe start those up again? I accidentally did a cold shower this morning, and thought of you and your stitch. I didn't know how you could do it - but somehow - it had some sort of calming effect on me.

Agree with Little. Cry in the shower. Or drive somewhere else and cry.

Also, I would avoid telling your son not to talk about you to your W. He's confused as well.

Hang in there.

[HPoirot]

Thank you Calibri and Little. After all the days of coolly dealing with spew and crying by my W, now my emotions are really catching up with me. I've felt anxious and cried off and on all day today. I know it's normal and I shouldn't be embarrassed... but I am embarrassed especially as my son saw me and now my W wants to feel great feeling sorry for me.

I really want to brutally yell at and shake my W tonight. And now my W wants to change the schedule and have S11 with her for Christmas eve and Christmas morning.

I know everyone here is dealing with WAS who are horribly unrepentant and entitled while dancing through the pain around them. But I'm sick to death of it. I know the solution to that is detaching and I'm trying/faking as much as I can. Maybe antidepressants will help me there. I know GALing will do it. I'll get there. Just angry right now.

[Wonka]

HP,

Sorry for dropping off as I was occupied with "stuff."

I am sorry that you're really feeling sad and hurt. The holidays do a mental and emotional trip on the LBS big time.

S11 was supposed to spend this afternoon with W. He told her, though, that he was worried about me b/c I was in my room crying last night and he wanted to spend this evening with me to take care of me. He also said he felt she was hurting me. So she just dropped him off and called me to say he was coming up. She asked me how I was. I didn't say anything. I asked her how she was. She said she was worried about me and told me what S11 said. I said don't worry about me, that I would take care of S11, and let me know when she'll pick him up later tonight. I hung up. She called back twice but I didn't answer.

I think it's time for another chat with S11 about his need to 'take care of you' for it is an hellva burden on such young shoulders. And you can say that he does not need to report everything you say or do to his Mom and vice versa for her. I sense that he's in the "people pleaser" spot. What do you think?

I also wanted to address W's comment about not meaning to hurt your or wanting any of this. It's time for you to be authentic with some selective truth darts. Doesn't mean that you get all Wet Noodle and tell her of every hurt & negative emotion.

Here's a suggestion for the next time W trots out the same friggin script on you:

W, you've said this several times. To me, it is meaningless because if one is sincere in their apology, then effort would have been made to change the behavior that is causing damage to the family...especially to our marriage. I'm not seeing any genuine actions from you to end things with the OM completely. We are in this situation precisely because I am NOT willing to continue to live in an open marriage. You've made a choice where there's consequences. Very serious indeed. So don't talk to me like this....it's insulting.

Can you make special plans with just you and S11 over the weekend? See the Christmas lights. Make a homemade batch of popcorn and watch some great boy-man movies?

Keep going, buddy. We're holding you up.

[25yearsmlc]

Thank you 25 for your post and very direct comments. I did use your "SO WHAT?" suggestion when my W texted "Reconsider having Christmas together?" I see it's just what I have to do here like everything else. I don't have to like it... just do it.

Ridiculous how I feel guilt like I abandoned and hurt my W after everything that's happened. But I do and I'm hurting myself very badly. So yes I've been hiding here this week... wanting to not be her LBH for a while b/c yes I can't handle her and her behavior right now. I didn't let myself do that being so sensitive to her contacting me.

She sent another text... "I am sorry I hurt you. More than you can know." I didn't respond... not even with a truth dart. I will next time.


I'm curious about this^^. WHY would you send her a "truth DART" (emphasis on the word "DART") MY point to you was to say "so what?" to YOURSELF.

She says she is sorry more than you can know, so you want to 1) mind read AND 2) give her a snotty retort.

WHY? Just detach. Let it go. There's a good chance she means it. Or did at the moment she said it. It changes nothing.

IF she presses you, then TELL her that. "W, you SAY these things about regretting your choices, but then you continue to make those same choices, so really, I'm at a loss as to what you expect or want me to say, b/c clearly, nothing I say can change your plans...."

AND then drop it. Do NOT wait as if you expect a response from her (Towards you, of course)...resist it and leave the second the words are out of your mouth. NOT rudely, but quickly..."Gotta go, I'll keep in touch", etc.

Make sense?


The couple times we looked at each other this week, her eyes were so wide and she looked at me so sad like she wanted something. Otherwise, we don't even say hello to each other. Our handoffs of S11 are at a distance. I'm creating that distance. So what.

HP....so you continue to read into where her eyes land...

buddy, you MUST Take her OFF your microscope, and stop obsessing about what her facial expressions and tone might mean, or eye contact or none, or the sighs and deep breaths, or tears or no tears and blah blah blah.

Seriously, just stop it. Use the tools the TED TALK videos have (and the speakers are authors who wrote books that elaborate on their approach!)

AND Please, please for your sanity's sake and your son's happiness AND for your future, GAL for real, more...okay?

I suggest you Stop examining & staring at your negative emotions and giving them so much power.

People with low self esteem are seen as needing more help from us, to meet their challenges.
But in reality it is from FACING & overcoming those challenges - that will lift their self esteem.

Struggling and overcoming challenges, are what teaches us to have confidence within. Working THROUGH The pain is how we learn that life CAN bring us joy and happiness, not avoiding pain.

I get the feeling that you are sort of navel gazing about the pain. "I"m still in a lot of pain and my son saw me crying (again) last night..."

Okay while there's nothing "wrong" with crying in front of him, you need to move on faster.

To paraphrase what Amy Cuddy says in her book and the TED Talks,

"Do Not wait for FEELINGS to arise & change a behavior,

INSTEAD -Behave in ways that change the feelings."


Moreover, Your urge to drink when you are sad/angry, is of great concern to me. I think when you self medicate with alcohol, you teach yourself NOT to work through the pain -- but to numb it.

Take that^^ in before blurting out a defensive reaction, okay? Just process it...

You seemed shocked & reeling that it feels SO uncomfortable to face this pain. You are wallowing in it now. Don't drink or numb or avoid OR wallow in the pain. Face it, COPE With it....overcome it.

Yes, I guess that^^ is a bit of a 2 x 4, but hey, there's a boy in your home watching you and so, if anyone needs to move along faster, it's you.

I'm still feeling a lot of pain... and my son saw me crying last night. We had a talk about how it's OK to cry and holding in your feelings only hurts more. He was going to call his mom when he saw me crying and I told him not to. Told him not to tell his mom anything about me.

I'm a bit torn on this, ^^ with all the emphasis on the PAIN of it all....

but I agree that him getting in the middle of your m, is a very bad idea.

Telling him NOT to say "anything" about you to his own mom, seems on its face, potentially detached. But I think we both know it's just the opposite.


He was so nice to me last night trying to help me. I ran out of alcohol the night before which was good as I was better yesterday. By the evening, though, I was hurting so badly I wanted a drink. Driving home from the grocery I was going to stop and pick up some beer. My son says, "you don't need beer to be happy dad." He told me to think of things that make me happy... the same thing I told him the first night in the condo. I didn't get the beer. Drank half of his root beer instead.

Hp, pardon me for blurting this out but since I'm the adult child of an alcoholic, I have to ask you if you are in a 12 step program or if you have a sponsor.

This^^ behavior is the behavior of someone who, at best, misuses alcohol. At worst, it's the behavior of an alcoholic, who relies on booze to TEMPORARILY escape pain.

But By numbing it, you avoid it and thusly, give it MORE power in your life... (and you are modeling God knows what, for your son about alcohol).

Champagne at a wedding, cheering a toast to the couple...see, THAT Is an acceptable, responsible & fun celebratory way to share in fellowship at a happy occasion. Champagne is appropriate there.

Feeling as if you want to cry and then wanting beer to drink, alone, or in a room away from your one child, is Not an appropriate choice to make. Do you get that?

Yesterday I stopped by the old house to get the HDTV for S11. She knew I was picking up the TV. Saw her vodka bottle out and nearly empty. Saw a notepad that she listed her monthly apartment and living expenses on. It will be very tight for her. I saw that W had a new book by the bed... where she leaves the book she is currently reading... called "Love Sense." It's a book about the science of love and how to keep or recapture it in struggling long term relationships.

I fought not to mind read but did buy the book myself.

Really, HP? You "fought" not to mind read --(well gee, that was a fast fight)

So then you BOUGHT the same book & are reading it now?? Geez...well since you are so into the mind reading, again....WHILE KNOWING that it makes you hope things and then get hurt more...

why not assume the book is about her r with OM? (Ouch??)

(Better yet, why not drop it?)


Read it last night. I saw our R described in that book... how it got to where we are and how it can recover from there with help. There was a story in it about a couple where the W had and A and fell in love with the AP and wanted out of the M. The couple had similar lack of connection issues to me and W. The story showed how, with emotion focused therapy (EFT) help and time and patience, the couple recaptured passion and saved their M.

Hope has been a very dangerous thing with me in this sitch. Extremely painful. The book was very educational and a little comforting for me and I'll leave it at that.

S11 is away this weekend until Sunday evening with W. I have plans to work... to go to the gym... to get the car fixed.

I was very sad this morning, though. Cried again and felt pissed about it after. I wasn't going to post for a few days... but I find the sharing and support helps me feel stronger so here I am again.

Good thing, I find it easer to recover from sadness. Remembering to be positive, confident, and emotionally stable like jCred said in is post.

Being consistently emotionally stable is still an issue... so I do have my first IC appointment for Monday. Considering antidepressants.

I did look at the TED talks 25. I just have to remember to use the tools when needed.

Why not ASSUME you need to use them on a daily basis? I'm totally serious. These are LIFE SKILLS not just for crises...but for every single day of your life.

Trust me (and MANY MANY others) when I say that What you resist, persists and where your head goes, your heart will follow (if you let it).

[/b]

I do make myself smile and use positive body language... like this morning when I walked past W's car after she picked up S11. (We didn't speak again this morning.) I admit I want to reach out to her and ask her what she's thinking.

But yes, I let her take up WAY too much space in my head/heart. She threw that away.

My head/heart have better things to do.

[JCred]

HP,
I feel for ya man, I really do, but I am going to tell you the reality again..

Woman ARE attracted to EMOTIONALLY STRONG.... confident men who are going somewhere with their life.....

They are NOT attracted to emotionally weak men.
I think you need to find a good strong male friend. I really do.... A male that you can confide MALE things with......

You are looking like the weak one here. EVEN YOUR SON sees it.
Your wife can't get her feelings back for you while she is feeling pity for you. I'm sorry HP, but that's just the way it works with men and women.... Women are just more attracted to confident men who ARE EMOTIONALLY STRONG....

Please find a STRONG male friend that you can bounce men things off of....... No matter what people say about men crying, not much turns a woman off faster than a man who is weak emotionally when she rejects him. That's why pursuit and chasing and begging don't work. Crying is the same...

You really do need to come to grips with this. I understand you are in pain, but you need to come to the place that you say NO MORE... I'm moving on...

THAT will be your key to gaining her attention and attraction back. Your son is more worried about YOU emotionally than her.. Think about that..... This isn't moving you closer to your goal. It is moving you AWAY from it. Your wife feels bad (pity) for you, but that isn't helping her to feel loss or love for you while you are in this state. It's one thing for you wife see you cry about something like the death of a loved one, but it is something entirely different with what has just transpired. She really needs to feel and see that not only are you happy, but maybe even HAPPIER without her. Emotional strength.. "I CAN HANDLE WHATEVER LIFE THROWS MY WAY." Most women want an emotionally strong man THEY can lean on in tough times. How can she lean on you when she feels you are on the verge of losing it?

Find a good strong male friend that you can confide in.. One who you can call daily, or hourly if needed that can help you get back on track so that your wife sees emotional strength coming from you at all times....

[HPoirot]

Day #7...

Thank you Wonka and 25. I did speak to my son Wonka about sharing news about me with his mom. Even so, simply doing and being my best around him solves the problem. I can't ask him to do work I must do.

A lot of hard truth 25 thank you. I poured my bottle of rum down the sink. Bought my own book, "The Success Principles" by Jack Canfield and am now reading it and doing what it says.

Quote from the book about taking 100% responsibility for your life... "If you realize that you have created your current conditions, then you can uncreate them and re-create them at will. Do you understand that?"

I will learn to understand and act on that everyday when I'm not working, being a father, or GALing.

Back to work.

Event + Response = OUTCOME

I control the response.

Onward.

[Vanilla]

HP

We all slip, we are human after all. Forgive yourself, the GAL enthusiast says go GAL. Good clean non alcohol related GAL.

If you look at my sitch, you will see the damage that alcohol can do. Don't go there, your S needs you too much. It's a real misery road all round.

Find an alternate outlet for your anger, do something else. mozzas 7 minute workout perhaps to change your state of mind. (Thanks Mozza, I resourced that and downloaded it to my iPad., it's now part of my Heath and sassy campaign that I have agreed with gg)

It's going to be all right in the end and if it's not alright it's not the end.

Thanks for the lovely words.

Gentleness
Vanilla

[HPoirot]

Was just reading very insightful words from Vanilla on another thread. Words from the point of view of the WAW. I've known almost since the beginning of this sitch the importance of accepting my W as she is right now... not to try to change her or challenge her... to somehow validate her as she is without judgement. To validate her feelings and put mine on the shelf.

She texts me to say she bought S11 some presents and, if I wanted them to be from me, I can pay her back. I say "No thank you I'll buy him my own gifts."

Then she texts me "And the computer?" She knows I'll buy him a new computer as I've told her a number of times already.

Then she sends me a text... "HP we have to talk. We can't do this in front of S11. We must communicate. Please."

I'm remembering all the amazing advice I've received in just this thread alone about how to respond to her. Just text "What is it?" and leave it to her to explain herself. Don't make a big deal about it. Don't be surprised or outraged or otherwise moved by anything she says or does. Everyone here has said it again and again she's just wants to regain control and in her mind make me the bad bitter one b/c I won't play happy family with my wayward W. Just accept it and keep moving.

Don't let my guilt or mind reading get in my way. It will be like this many days with W for a while. I'm Clint Eastwood. Dirty Harry. No problem. No need to ignore her. Dispassionately listen, translate the real request, dismiss the rest, be nice and professional in my response, move on.

Nothing else to do.

I'm going to go for a walk in the woods.

[zew]

I'm remembering all the amazing advice I've received in just this thread alone about how to respond to her. Just text "What is it?" and leave it to her to explain herself. Don't make a big deal about it. Don't be surprised or outraged or otherwise moved by anything she says or does. Everyone here has said it again and again she's just wants to regain control and in her mind make me the bad bitter one b/c I won't play happy family with my wayward W. Just accept it and keep moving.

You've got it!

[HPoirot]

Journaling...

This being in pain and alone without drinking is tough. I spent today by myself. Got the car starter replaced... read my success book... researched some concrete ways to meet my goals. Took 2 long walks today from the car repair garage and back. Ate pretty well... looks like I put on some weight. Didn't go to the gym but I will tomorrow. Took 2 long naps. Sitting still brings on the pain... so I don't sit still too long.

Decided my main goal in therapy starting Monday will be to detach from my W and the outcome of this sitch. Thought about 25 saying my self-esteem is low and I agree it is so I'll look for help there too. Noted how much I wanted a drink today... that and/or a woman's company. Walking around the mall today to buy some workout pants, noticed my desire to approach women. Found I'll need to focus on living independently and getting my happiness and worth from within in therapy too.

My OW from 5 years ago called me again today. She was on her morning walk with her dogs near the water on a warm beautiful day where she was. She described her view to me. We grew up together going to the beach in the warm sun. She knows how much I like that.

We had a nice talk about how I'm feeling, what I'm going through, and how she's working to make happiness for herself. We talked about how I have no close friendships here and how that happened. How we both have felt in our lives we didn't have a real home while living in cold weather. It's why she moved her family to the sun... to be happier. It seems to work for her... that and she keeps busy on her own projects. I talked about how I feel now trapped in this city where it's cold and how I never made the effort to really live here... to find inspiring things that I loved to do here. I know that's a big part of why I'm in this sitch now. I told her about my goals to find happiness here.

She was very supportive and it was the best part of my day that she called. I'm aware I can't depend on her as I have to finally be really self-sufficient and quickly. And she is not my Plan B. She's decided to make her M work like I would prefer my W to do. I have a chance and the motivation to really become the person I want to be.

Just keep going.

[Pink17]

Hi HP,

Sorry, have been busy with end of the year stuff and my own mess in my sitch.

Well, I really like what Wonka offered you. I think it's time for your W to have some respect regarding you and all you are going through.

If she is not mentally ill, then she knows very well she has hurt you. That it is difficult for you because you have been cheated, betrayed. She knows you acknowledge the wrongs you have done in you R/M and all the times you hurt her. She knows you choose to work on your M and avoid the D. And yet she wants to pursue it anyway.

So, I really believe it's time to use Wonka's words and set it straight with her. You do not need to yell, say bad words and offend her. You just need to set it the way she will not toy with you anymore.

She is doing all the wrong things here because she is very confused and does not want to make any mistake, but she also need to understand that her choices are hurting other people and she needs at least to have some respect and get out of the picture.

You are doing good, because it is a very hard time in your life. I have kids, and I know how hard it is to be happy for them, uplifting around them, do activities you are not in a mood. But, again like Wonka said, if you try or even fake it at first then it just become.

About the alcohol, I never had trouble with it, but found myself feeling good every time I would drink. Last time I have one too many I end up messing things around. End up in be with my H and it was not very good for either. So now, no more alcohol, it is the enemy, it will make you feel better and then make you feel 100 times worse, beside we have kids. Not a good combination if we want to be responsible.

I got some help with antidepressant at the beginning of my sitch, it's Zolof 25mg for me, I really do not need anything stronger. But it helps to take that agonizing edge of pain. I felt and feel much better and it helps in every aspect of my life.

I can work, eat better, smile and think a little better. The whole mess with the D is still there, I also feel sad, angry, happy, hopeful, discouraged, I am able to feel it all, it's just that I am not shaking and going in a million direction at the same time.

Your IC probably told you that it is perfectly normal to love someone and feel angry with that person. Grief has many stages and anger is one of them. Respect yourself and let yourself live and feel all the steps of grief. It is not an easy task but it is manageable if you know what is happening to you.

Just one idea? For many years I made Gingerbread XMas house with my kids, they loved and they still do, even now they are older, but they enjoy putting it together and making a mess.

We also play games at the kitchen table, it's amazing how you can get into it and basically forget you are sad.

There are also some online games that we get on our phones so we can do it anywhere, anytime. It's some questions, silly and stupid questions like what would you do put a bucket on your hand for the rest of your life or on your foot for the rest of your life. Or would you smell the dog pup or leak the dog trow up? We laugh for over an hour with these stupid things.

It's fun, it's light, it's boy oriented, it's clean jokes, but we create a lovely bond with good mood.

HP, I hope I could give you some ideas to get by for awhile, I have been in the same boat, it just does not have any other way right now. We need to take good care after ourselves and get through it with dignity and respect.

Hope things will get better for you (and for me too)
Hang in there, it's the Holidays!

Pink

[mandown]

HP, skimmed through your sitch. I am sorry you are going through all this.

I am going to join in on your venture with you. It's a little different with me though, W lives upstairs.

Test of our strength!

[Wonka]

HP,

I want to really commend you for pouring out the whiskey from the bottle. It is the BEST decision we've ever made in our lives.

Yes, that's right. You heard me: I did the exact same thing you did. For starters, I have always been a teetotaler with one or two tots of my lovely amaretto per year. In the first week after Ms. Wonka left, I came very perilously close to drinking a large amount of the amaretto. It took every ounce of my willpower to pour out the whole bottle in my kitchen sink. Whew! As you can see, I was in so much pain that I just wanted it all to go away.

A word to the wise about "wanting a woman"...please be very self-aware of this slippery slope. In my experience, I fought off the urge for a few years because I recognized that those feelings came from a place of 'neediness' instead of being self-assured and ready to give/share with another person. I'm glad of my personal choice to refrain from grabbing the next woman because it would have put me in a thought position.

By the way, I liked how you responded to W's text with "what is it?" query. Nicely done!

[sandi2]

HP, do you go to the gym and work out? I think it would be healthy on so many levels. May help with anger also. Maybe you and S11 could do it together. Maybe it could be part of GAL.

[HPoirot]

Hello Wonka and Sandi...

Yes Wonka... it was interesting how hard it was to pour that bottle down the sink. There was a time I rarely had a drink. Then, over the years, my W and I came enjoy a drink or 2 or 3 together every night. I never thought anything of it. My W a few times did express how she thought she might be alcoholic. That it could be more than taking the edge off her day. I always reassured her. Lesson learned. I drove by a few beer stored today. Noticed each one. I'm watching myself.

And on a woman's company too. I agree right now that that's coming from my place of "neediness" as much as wanting a drink. I'm determined to now become a fully self-assured man who creates the life he wants to live without neediness. I'm framing all this as my best opportunity to do this for myself.

And sandi yes I did join a gym and I will workout on a regular schedule. Unfortunately S11 is too young to go with me but I will do something like the 7 minute workout with him in the condo. There's also a rock climbing gym near here where I will climb with him.

One another thing I'm still working on... interacting with W without showing anger. She just came by to drop off S11. She tried to talk to me about the schedule change she wanted... having S11 on Christmas eve and morning. Honestly, I looked at her like she was sh*t again. Talked evenly and businesslike but bruskly... told her to let S11 stay on the original schedule. Told her to email me anything else she wanted. Told her thanks and walked away before she could say anything.

I'm slamming the door on her and R like Chuck cautioned me not to do. So my goal this week is to be better me in the short times I see W. Just co-workerish. Professional. And then keep that going. I know it's critical to the R goal to be the lighthouse right now... to be better me and not angry me. I have to work on this... acting "as-if" I'm past her so I'm not angry now. Not intuitive at all.

So I should see her again on Tuesday. I saw that she bought me a Christmas present for S11 to give to me from him. I'll work with S11 to find something for her. Part of me, though, thinks she should just get a card.

Honestly, it would be so nice and easy to go out right now, get a six pack of beer, pick up a nice full-bodied girlfriend, and drop some quick divorce papers in the mail before I sit down to watch football.

HA! See I made myself smile...

[HPoirot]

Journaling...

Noticed that, when I wake up, I say "Another day in hell" to myself. Even if I'm joking, I can't afford to do that.

Did some different things today... Went to a new barbershop in a part of the city I've never been to get my head shaved and beard trimmed. I usually do this myself but it was good to get out of the condo. Now I look like a well groomed angry hard big man. Nice.

My dad called then to make sure I was on track. He's very detail oriented and it was good he's checking up on me. I feel, though, that I'm clearly not doing enough to be self-sufficient as he had to push me on some things. Time for me to push myself harder.

After s11 came home, I left him to his video games this afternoon which I shouldn't have. Wanted to go for a walk in the woods with him but didn't. I sat and watched a football game I didn't care about. I'm made less than good choices today.

I saw I started to wallow again... so I did get up and finally unpack my suitcases after a week of living out of them. Straightened up my bedroom. I did make myself feel better with the activity. Ordered pepperoni stromboli dinner for me and S11 b/c I haven't started cooking yet. We should have gone out for burgers. Was a little short with S11 just now. He was taking too long to eat. I let him eat in front of the computer which I shouldn't have. Too much I shouldn't have tonight.

I'm irritable. Noting now that I'm not always being on guard living with W, I really really need to have a nightly thing to do. I'll get some board games to play with s11. That and/or get a complicated model to build with him like someone suggested here. Neither of those things really appeal to me, though. I have to start somewhere, though, b/c watching TV is terrible for my PMA and my mind floods with hateful and sorrowful thoughts of W.

That's why I was thinking crazy thoughts just now... Considered calling W to talk. Texting her something to tell her I want to talk. That I'm sorry for cutting her off today. That I'm sorry for ignoring her and treating her like sh*t this week. Feeling angry with myself for even thinking of reaching out to this person who has been so horrible and thoughtless. Wishing I had really yelled at her in anger when I first thought she was in an LDEA instead of being kind and understanding. Knowing that she's hurt and angry and leading with her emotions and I'm just going to have to be the one who takes whatever comes from her with head held high. Knowing that, if I reach out to her, then I'm weak needy man pursuing a W who doesn't want him. I'm not a weak man... just a good man making the same mistakes over and over. That's not good enough. I'm so much better than this. Damn guilt.

So, among the other things I'm doing to grow, I'm going to plan and take a trip to Miami for me and my boy. That and a trip just for me... by myself. To Belize or Brazil. Hell maybe volunteer in Cuba. Something to look forward to. To build myself up to.

Use each day to move forward. Right... I didn't move forward today.

I'm sorry... I'm sad again. Cried in the bathroom like a baby. I'm sick of it but that's just how it's going to be for a while.

Day #9 tomorrow.

I can do this. I just have to believe I can. I'm going to make it.

[Wet]

Journaling...

Use each day to move forward. Right... I didn't move forward today.

Hi HPoirot, you had some good things in your post. The honesty of a "sad" day. Not calling or texting your W. Getting a haircut .

I wanted to send you a quick note on your statement that you would like to "use each day to move forward." I recommend you do not put that kind of pressure on yourself. It's alright to have a bad day. Just don't let it turn into a bad week.

And every day doesn't have to be a day of growth for you. There are ups and downs in your R. And there are ups and downs on how you feel. Embrace the good days and the bad days as well, it's part of the healing process. So relax, and don't feel like each day you have to move forward. You have my best wishes.

[Wonka]

HP,

Sorry that you feel that you're floundering about without any direction. I'm glad to read that your father is trying to be supportive of you in his own way. Parents mean well. rolling eyes

Why not start your day with a positive daily affirmation? For some ideas, you might want to check out Hay House.

How about sitting down and planning out a routine during a normal week? Plan out meals. Plan out regular sit-down dinners with S11. I read not too long ago that Obama and his family talk about "what were my thorns" and "what were my roses" when discussing how their day went. I thought it was interesting for it was their bonding time and forging a way to connect as a family.

You don't need to go long distances to give back. It can be done right in your own community. One can volunteer once a week (or whatever frequency) at the local homeless shelter or pet rescue center. Perhaps you and S11 can do this together. It will be a great way to show your son in order to broaden his horizons. The other benefit would be meeting fascinating new people.

Every year, I honor my late father by buying Thanksgiving dinners for the less fortunate by making a contribution to a charity that distributes Thanksgiving turkeys and a bag of goodies to needy families. He's done this for years by rounding up (I say "hounding" for he was very persuasive). In turn, I receive letters from recipients expressing their gratitude. Serving others fills up your soul. Try to be expansive, HP.

[Mozza]

Hey HPoirot - Just stopping by to say how impressed I am with your journey. You've done a lot of difficult things, you've fought your instincts, you've looked at yourself. What you're doing now with alcohol is also impressive. And the gym too (7-minute workout highly recommended!).

You're hard on yourself because of your attitude with your W and it's good that you're striving to find the right balance. Know that a lot of us are going through the same thing -- either I'm old distant Mozza or I'm a wet noodle.

To me, you're a success story in the making on these boards because, regardless of the outcome, you're doing the right thing for you and S11. Keep at it, you're an inspiration.

[HPoirot]

Day #9 Journaling...

Today I started excellently. Wonka's suggestion of a daily morning affirmation reminded me that, before all this started, I started or ended most days listening to a 20 minute positive hypnotherapy recording. I found it and listened to it 3 times this morning before getting out of bed. Extremely calming and centering. I jumped out of bed, finished cleaning up my bedroom, made my bed for the first time here (I usually do this everyday), made myself a cup of green tea for the first time here, and sat down for breakfast with S11. We watched the sun come up.

Even better, I brought a large pile of old IRS tax notices from the old house. There happens to be a paper shredder here so I am shredding them. I used to hide this pile in my closet from myself and my W. I built up a lot of fear in this pile... and with it I brought myself down as a man over the years. My W saw that... now I'm here. I'm letting that fear go this morning. Just pieces of paper.

And I could clearly image myself being better me as I was meditating this morning. From those visions, I'm framing my sitch differently for my own good... My W wasn't good to me or S11. We have an opportunity to all grow and be better, stronger people together and she was very weak and made a bad decision and then tried to hide it from us while saying we're her #1 priority. Now, from the pain of that decision, I know much more about myself and where I went wrong and I'm being a better man today and everyday from now on.

I remember I imagined a life without my W for a while b/c she was not good to me... she complained about her life instead of doing something about it... was often very negative about everything... was often the one not trying to have fun and be happy where we were. She's not perfect and is certainly not worthy of me and S11 right now. I have to be realistic about her too.

And that's why I left her. I left her. She only threatened to walk out on me... but I was the one who took my life in my hands and walked out. I will make my life better for myself and my son. I will carry myself like a man worth following... a man who has a direction and a destination and is walking that path no matter what comes.

I will keep going.

I won't give up.

[HPoirot]

Journaling...

Again S11s phone was not plugged in, and my phone was in the other room, so W called a number of times and left VMs and text about how it's unacceptable we don't answer and she's worried and to call back before she assumes the worst.

I just had s11 charge his phone and call her. I said "so what?" to myself until the negative feelings lessened. I'll just have to make sure S11 at least can hear his phone.

Still... her calls and texts moved me negatively again. This time I had something to do which helped so thank you 25. I will get to the place where hearing from her doesn't bother me.

She called then. I looked at the phone and after a bit answered. She talked about splitting time on Christmas and New Years and his birthday like she asked for on an earlier text. She said she wanted our car. She said she had no money for a rental car. I reminded her I would be happy to pay for half. She said we have to talk about money, where we're going to live, when we're going to get together and pack the old house. I reminded her we already talked about those things. Where she lives is up to her. She said she talking about s11 now. She asked if I was ever going to talk to her. I said I'll do the best I can.... just send me an email with details and I'll consider it. I said I have to get back to work and hung up.

Then I saw she had sent a text... "PLEASE confirm." I knew that she sent that text before she called. I called her anyway. Said businesslike I saw her text... confirm what? She said what she just talked about. Then she asked how S11 was doing. I said he was happy playing his games. She said he told her yesterday that she seemed so happy and none of this was bothering her. She said that wasn't true... that all this was the hardest thing in the world. She said that I was probably right to leave the house b/c being in there together was awful. I didn't say what part of me wanted to say... to stop all this... that all this is fixable... just come home. I didn't say anything. She said she couldn't cry b/c she was in a meeting. We hung up.

I want to start a talk with her but I won't. I want to listen if she starts to talk but I'm not giving her the chance. I shouldn't have called back. All of this is so stupid and painful but necessary. I'm still hearing DB coach Chuck suggesting to spend Christmas together. I won't do that with my W chasing an A. I admit that part of me wants to but I know it won't help or change anything. I want to believe it will make things worse.

Just keep in my sandbox... keep working on me.

I have to leave her alone.

[Wonka]

HP,

The next time W brings up how sorry she's hurt you or how this is hard on her, you need to use this script:

Here's a suggestion for the next time W trots out the same friggin script on you:

W, you've said this several times. To me, it is meaningless because if one is sincere in their apology, then effort would have been made to change the behavior that is causing damage to the family...especially to our marriage. I'm not seeing any genuine actions from you to end things with the OM completely. We are in this situation precisely because I am NOT willing to continue to live in an open marriage. You've made a choice where there's consequences. Very serious indeed. So don't talk to me like this....it's insulting.

As for not answering her texts right away, I would say: W, you need to be aware that S11 and I will not be able to respond to your texts/phone calls right away because we are occupied with things. I want to reiterate that you please email me with issues so I can give them some thought before responding. Texts and phone calls are to be used for emergencies only. I will not respond to them if they are not emergencies. Thanks. HP

Then enforce it. Ignore your phone if W blows them up w/ non-emergency info. This is for YOUR own mental well being.

Regarding the car, W needs to make plans on that one way or another. It is what she wanted: a S. Let her find out what life's like without the comforts of H and sharing things jointly.

[HeavyD]

Hi HP

After reading through your posts - yes, we are in the exact same situation. Doesn't this blow? I am beside myself and every morning I wake up with dread in the pit of my stomach.

I agree with you and Wonka, there is no negotiating or talking or reasoning with them with they are involved with their AP. However much it hurts, we just have to let them figure this out for their own sake. There is nothing we can do, except protect ourselves from their poor choices.

I am rooting for you and learning from your situation. Currently I am no contact with WAW as much as that kills me. We swap kids, but it's very very akward.

I am still learnin the art of no contact and make a lot of mistakes, but I am a work in progress.

I will get some self affirmation apps for my phone too, that sounded like a really good idea.

Take care of yourself, continue to post often. I am learning from you.

NAJ

[HeavyD]

what is the postivie hypno therapy? Can you tell me a link or site? Also - any self affirmation apps that you can name that are helpful?


Thanks

[HPoirot]

Hello Wonka. Thank you for the script reminder. I did completely forget about it and today would have been a perfect time to use it.

Some questions on it for my education and for others who could use it...

As you know, whenever my W feels concerned or caught she lashes out. Before it was "I think we should separate." After my BD about leaving her for the condo, her response to shut me down is "I don't want to be married to you" or "you just want me to live in an M with no love!"

She says she feels that way and so won't take any genuine action to end her A. And by extension likely doesn't care that I'm not willing to live in an open M with her.

How does my saying this script to her not reinforce her feelings above? Don't I look naive by saying I'm not seeing actions that she has not really offered to take?

Just curious how the script is intended to hit her or if it's more for me and my view of things.

Thank you again Wonka. I have some index cards... I'll write this one down for the next time she says sorry.

[HPoirot]

what is the postivie hypno therapy? Can you tell me a link or site? Also - any self affirmation apps that you can name that are helpful?


Thanks

Hello NAJ. Google Paul McKenna. He has an app for confidence and controlling your emotions which I started today. Also has audios for Stress and "Change Your Life in 7 Days" on iTunes. I find his work excellent for relaxation and getting your mind right. And that is if you do nothing but lie or sit perfectly still and listen. If you do listen and then take action, you can get more done in your life. Try it.

[HeavyD]

At least your wife says she is sorry - mine will not admit sorrow and pain in person. She may have done that in an email or text right when she told me, but frankly I was too gob smacked to comprehend/read/absorb it. Now I don't know if she even did or I dreamed it.

Bottom line, she will not apologize or admit any guilt in person to me. She has a very dead look in her eyes like a shark. I don't kow if I will get an answer and that is the worst feeling of all.

[sandi2]

Was just reading very insightful words from Vanilla on another thread. Words from the point of view of the WAW. I've known almost since the beginning of this sitch the importance of accepting my W as she is right now... not to try to change her or challenge her... to somehow validate her as she is without judgement. To validate her feelings and put mine on the shelf.

This is not to offend Vanilla, b/c I have already explained to her that she is not a WAW if she is trying to save her M. She is in a terrible stitch, however, she is the one fighting for it. The type of WAW's we have here are not wanting to keep their H/M. Vanilla wants her M to get better. The WAW's here are not interested in working on the M! That is a major difference in definition. Your W is cut from a different pattern than I see Vanilla. Vanilla, is not in an A or acting wayward. Your W is a wayward W. Therefore, I strongly disagree with accepting her the way she is now. That would be accepting her bad behavior and her A with OM.

What do you mean you can't expect her to make changes? Of course she will have to make changes if you reconcile. It is her choice.

[u-turn]

HPoirot.
I'm not sure if I have ever added anything to your thread, but I read it very closely. You are handling things so well - in my humble opinion. I love the scripts that you and others have worked out - they are helpful to read for inspiration and to plan for interactions that I have and to see what mistakes I have made.

Keep up the good work you are doing for yourself and son.
I wish you the best!

[HeavyD]

So I ask myself - what is she mad about - she's having the AP?

1. She is mad that I did not "love her" like she wanted. She is mad that I was not emotionally vailable.

2. She is made that when she made the request about letting her participate in an affair with the AP and I said no.

3. She is mad that I sugested she move out when she would not stop with the AP. I made he move out when she told me it was now a PA, not just an EA.

4. She is mad because.... "I am being dificult" with the kids schedules, finances, etc....

She is a mad wet hen. She has caused so much chaos and confusion and yet she seems very pleased with herself and the impact this has caused on me and our kids. She does not give me the right to be angry and upset and acts like I should just get over it, like it's a walk in the park.

I feel like she has taken away my right to my feelings, compltely steamrolled and when i do show my indignation or anger, I am "the bad guy". I can't win.

Other than going dark, there is nothing else I can do. Correct?

[HPoirot]

Was just reading very insightful words from Vanilla on another thread. Words from the point of view of the WAW. I've known almost since the beginning of this sitch the importance of accepting my W as she is right now... not to try to change her or challenge her... to somehow validate her as she is without judgement. To validate her feelings and put mine on the shelf.

This is not to offend Vanilla, b/c I have already explained to her that she is not a WAW if she is trying to save her M. She is in a terrible stitch, however, she is the one fighting for it. The type of WAW's we have here are not wanting to keep their H/M. Vanilla wants her M to get better. The WAW's here are not interested in working on the M! That is a major difference in definition. Your W is cut from a different pattern than I see Vanilla. Vanilla, is not in an A or acting wayward. Your W is a wayward W. Therefore, I strongly disagree with accepting her the way she is now. That would be accepting her bad behavior and her A with OM.

What do you mean you can't expect her to make changes? Of course she will have to make changes if you reconcile. It is her choice.

Hello Sandi. Thank you for commenting on my thoughts about how I accept my W. I do want to approach her in the way that works so it's very valuable to me to get this right.

What I got from my readings of DB and the threads here is that, while at best I don't agree with what my W does, I have to hear and accept what she says. To not argue with her feelings... just tell myself that's how you feel and keep moving. So I'm accepting her the way she is feeling now.

As far as the A... I let her know I won't tolerate it and I won't live with her that way. I give her a chance to change as she says she agrees she's done an terrible thing. If she doesn't, I act by removing myself, my money, and my support. So, in that way, I'm not accepting her behavior. I do expect her to make big changes and show that by enforcing my boundaries and staying away from her while she doesn't change. So, somehow, I let her know changes I expect to be with me then walk away and work on my changes while allowing her own decisions to apply pressure for her to change.

That's how I'm seeing it right now. If I should be doing anything different then I would love to know. You know me... from the beginning feeling like I'm not doing enough. I would very much like to do whatever I can for my M.

[HPoirot]

Other than going dark, there is nothing else I can do. Correct?

I'm sorry about all this for you NAJ. Everyday I ask myself the same thing as I slowly grow closer to believing my W is not worth the pain I'm going through. I've done or thought of doing everything from long R talks, being friendly, kissing and hugging her, guilting her, reminding her of her vows, throwing her words back at her, exposing her A to the world, screaming at her, and telling her about her son's panic attacks and fear.

Nothing to do except move on for yourself. Not waiting for her... just finding a better life by and for yourself for a amount of time you're comfortable with.

I'm working on myself for 6 months. Then I'll reevaluate. My goals are to grow my self-esteem, my finances, and my happiness while I live an interesting life without my W or any other woman. I might then go another 6 months. That's my plan and all I can do.

Also, I think they're mad b/c they blame us for the hell in their lives. They want to be happy and forget past pain but we are reminders of the pain. They would rather not deal with us I think but IRL they have to.

[HPoirot]

Journaling...

Just had the strong urge to text W. "Let's talk. We don't have to do this." Something like that. Now acting as if I'm a man full of life ahead of him who doesn't have time for is WAW.

I was doing OK today but I've spent too much time reading here and not enough time working. I'm going to work to not post or read anything here for 24 hours.

First IC session in 1 hour too. I know not to expect much healing first day... or for a while for that matter.

OK back to work.

[Sotto]

Don't send the text HP!

I get those urges too.....I make myself mull them over for a week before I do anything. I'm always glad I didn't send them.

Those impulses are the enemy of good DBing....Toots

[sandi2]

Something I have learned with my health issues, if you are not on a good diet, it will intensify the irritation mood swings. You mentioned you have been eating junk food lately.