I don't know if what I would say is right or wrong per DB principals but I am tired of running scared. I don't fear D any more, still don't want it but I am not scared by it. so I guess when I think about the questions that normally would give me that sinking feeling in my stomach part of how I would respond is based on my lack of really caring right now about what happens.
I get being tired of running scared. It takes some time to get your focus off of trying to avoid D as much as possible. I'm pretty indifferent to it now. Stopping the begging, pleading, and obsessing over everything really puts brakes on all of that self victimization and gets you on the path to becoming stronger and better. I think it's one of the best things I've gotten out of DB.
Quote:
I feel like I am pretty detached and she no longer stirs the same emotions in me that she used to. I also have lost some respect for her as well and actually am starting to view her as a weak individual. When I think about what she has done to our family and our D's I am viewing her as an ugly person on the inside. Does that make sense?
Makes total sense. Back in the day when I used to read folks talking about how they don't even recognize their WW/WH, I didn't understand it. I totally do now as I have no idea who she is at this point and she's become pretty unattractive. The fallout from the BD, especially how it's affected my kids, does make her really unappealing and gives me no desire to get back with her. I know the kids would want that, but I just have to live with a single parent mindset and give them everything in terms of my love, time, support, and guidance - I know that this part is not going to be a problem for me as I am definitely the more stable parent compared to her.
This is just so much about her than it is about me. I refuse to get burned in her process of figuring out whatever is going on with her.
Although this came from a poster on your last thread, I wanted to respond....in case it caused confusion.
Quote:
The A is clearly their special private thing which they are entitled to of course (thank you Sandi, 25)
I don't think he meant to word the above quote to sound as if I and 25 were saying anyone is "entitled" to have an affair. In most cases we read on the board, the WW does have a sense of entitlement, and she will justify her actions.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Hi Sandi really sorry about that confusion! 'Twas a late night conribution on my phone in the bath so I was probably nodding off (time difference and all that). What of course I meant was exactly what you have just clarified, i.e. that WWs have this sense of entitlement. The posting probably contained more than a hint of sarcasm on my part and was describing my Ws mindset (which I will prob never work out) and how she has to "carry" everyone in her household and how she needed to escape all this (in her own mind).
thank you again for all your help
Me 55, W 50 D 8 M 20 T 27 MIL w/ us BD 01/02/17 workplace A (12/09/16, EA -> PA) OM senior manager, long term W, child 14 now: limbo (my choice)
"Don't care what you may do, we got that attitude!" - Bad Brains
So, the busy busy work week is over. One of the greatest things about last week was that I had no time in my head for W. I was busy interacting with a lot of people and just focusing on some amazing stuff that has come from the hard efforts of my team over the last 12 months.
I have some breathing room now and I can take care of some other things. The new place is a bit of a mess because I had no time last week to do any chores. Going to do that today and just run some errands.
I had two women flirt with me last week, not work related people. I wasn't even trying to do anything, but I chatted back with them and it was so much fun. Nothing came out of it but they were beautiful women and I really wanted to ask them out for a drink. I didn't, but it was nice to know that I still got some swag. I was dressed super nice throughout the week and I was very social and just being myself. I know that when and if the time comes when I am ready to venture out, I will be okay. Losing some weight and then this, gave me some nice confidence.
With the S, financially things are going to be tight for a while, but I am going to renegotiate my contract in a few months and will ask for a well deserved bump in my income. I proved to my boss with all the amazing work last week that he needs to keep me around. I will also start looking at what else is out there so that I can weigh my options. I need to make some more cash. I can manage with what I have right now, but it doesn't leave me much for savings, and kids are expensive. I need to plan for that.
All in all, I am in a good place and looking forward to focusing back on my goals after this weekend.
Keeping busy has been one of the easiest ways to keep xW out of my head, but at the same time, I try to not shut it out completely. When she pops up, I try to analyze why. Is it a me thing or a her thing? If it is a me thing, I see if it is something I need to work on. If it is a her thing, I pretty much toss it in the garbage, as there is nothing I can/want to do about it.
I can honestly say, I have dropped the rope.
My classes are going well, I am GALing like crazy, I have a dinner companions, and now I guess a GF, if we have to label it (before I get yelled at by some oldbies, I have made explicitly clear my desire to not be in a long term relationship, and it is more physical than anything). When I started getting noticed by the ladies again, it was the best feeling. I haven't even really had to 'go to them' they have been coming to me. It is a huge confidence builder (which in itself snowballs)
Met up with a friend from college who lives in TX now. He was in my state on some work (His HQ is here) It was great to catch up. The next day he messages me and tells me to send him my resume asap. He was apparently having lunch with a recruiter. Now I have leads on some GOOD paying jobs.
I really do hope your MR can work out, if you want it to. But I know you will be just fine if it doesn't.
Married 9: Together 11 M:37 W:35 S:2 D:7 Bomb dropped 6/3/2017 W moved out 7/1/2017 Separation Filed: 8/1/2017 Modified to Divorce: 8/21/2017 Divorced: 10/5/2017
Thanks Joe. Yeah, I definitely had an opening to take the convo further with at least one of the ladies, but I didn't. I didn't flirt back but I was social and kept a chill convo. It was a bit hard because I wanted to flirt back and take a next step. I know that it's not the right move for me right now and so I am going to keep a lid on it. But man, I'd really like to have some casual sex right about now. I know that I won't do that until D is finalized, but no movement from W on anything (I know it's early in my sitch), so the motivation to keep possible reconciliation in the back of my mind is getting less and less.
It's also pretty clear now that the LBS fog has almost dissipated that the MR was not good for me either. W has to change a lot of things for me to even consider a possible recon. I am pretty much NC with her right now unless it's about the kids, and I don't see her outside of some kid event once a week. Those interactions are getting easier for me because I truly don't care what she says or does. I am still positive and chill, but mostly for me and my attitude has improved a lot. The only reason I go to the events is for the kids - I want to make sure that they know that I am there for them every step of the way.
JM - sounds like you're doing well and are getting to a better place for yourself. I know what you mean about the ladies - I didn't put an ounce of effort last week and I had two ladies flirting with me. The confidence builder is amazing.
I am glad to hear about leads on some good paying jobs. I am going to take some time until end of this year to really evaluate where I want to go with my career. Also, I'd like to make some more money and we'll see what happens when I renegotiate my contract in 2018. I want to have some options to consider.
Thanks for your words about the MR. To be honest, I am at a place where I really don't think about if it's going to work out or not. I'll stand for the MR as long as it makes sense to me and what the situation looks like. I can probably file for D after next June so I have time to see how things play out for me. I am not even going to dwell on that decision until then.
I am going climbing today and then running some errands. Going to then see a friend in the evening and just chill.
TBH, life is good. It's going to be even better in the next few months as I gear up for my workouts and get back into writing. Work had taken over everything, but now I have a breather so back to my goals. Also, my smoke quit date is tomorrow. I planned it weeks back as I wanted to do it after the crazy work week.
Good for you M it sounds like you are in a good spot and it's crazy how we charting similiar paths. How are your kids adjusting? My youngest just told me she wished her mom and I did not break up it broke my heart. I just did kid exchange and my W told me to enjoy my week. I mean WTF???? Obviously she was projecting but I will never understand how someone can enjoy only seeing their kids 50% of the time. I know there are many things in life we will never know the answers to so I guess this is going to be one of them.
Yeah J, I'm in a good spot now. I feel more calm and things are less on edge for me. I am just back at refocusing on my goals and getting the place up to par to my standards. Kids rooms are great, but house still needs some stuff that I will have to get over time.
Kids are having a difficult time with the separation situation. Both of them are very sensitive and if I ever see them when they're with W, they just don't want me to leave. It just effin' breaks my heart and them to split their time is just so unfair. I think that is the most difficult thing for me now. I am filling their life with everything and more - love, time, affection, and supporting their education.
Yeah, I don't know how W can think this situation is working. To her credit, she has texted me in the past how much she misses them and it's lonely for her when the kids are with me. But, that's not good enough for her to consider working on things. Well, I think it's just this crazy level of selfishness that I just can't condone. I was talking to a friend who had someone in her family go through a separation recently, and she said it was the most selfish thing she had seen - mom and dad are okay with moving on with their lives, but the kids are super unhappy. The kids got the short end of the stick.
I think at one point, one of the kids said - 'you guys are happy, but did you ever think if me and my sister are going to be happy with this arrangement'. I don't know how they handled it, but it's the brutal truth and kids will tell you as they see it. The separation was mutual apparently, but still the impact is enormous on the kids.
In our cases where the split was not mutual, the degree of selfishness for the WW/WH is even greater. When I think of this, I am just baffled at how this could be a good option for the family. It is good for the WW/WH, but they just left a trail of devastation for three other people. I know that I won't get an answer for it, but at this point I don't care about answers. I used to care about that. I just want to be the stable unselfish parent for my kids so that they know that no matter what, I am there for them and I got them.
Kids have also gotten closer to me recently as I have made a 180 in how I deal with my control issues. I have made good strides and I plan on keep going ahead.
Let's say your wife put aside her feelings and decided to recon for the sake of the kids. Would you be ok with it? You be living as an intact family but your relationship with your W would be like roommates.
I lived that for 2.5 years and believe me when I tell you it sucked.
Is it possible that if the two of you are amicable and you take everything you learned and continue to grow everyday that you can't have an awesome life having your kids 50% of the time?
Or down the road your W realizes you were not the source of her unhappiness and is willing to do the hard work to make things right between the two of you.
Hey LH. Thanks for the counter perspective. That's what I love about this board.
What I would have wanted is the following:
1. Stay in the house and keep the family intact. 2. W not put aside her feelings, but we work through things with MC and IC and give it time. 3. If after a period of 6-12 months, things don't change, then make a decision on what to do next.
I know that in the above scenario, there would be the roommates situation for a period of time. But I would've accepted that so that the kids lives weren't jeopardized. Of course that can't go on indefinitely.
I guess my main thing is that there were other options than just straight separation that could've been explored. The S happened so fast.
I don't think we'll not have an amicable relationship when it comes to the kids, but I don't envision a friendship or any sort of relationship where I need trust and reliability.
I know that I wasn't the source of her unhappiness. We were very co-dependent. She has many unresolved issues that she never dealt with and not sure if she's working on it now. It was easy to project her unhappiness on me. Not saying I was a model husband - I know where I failed and not all of it had to do with her. I am working on those things for myself and the stuff that didn't work for me in the MR is something she has to change and put in the work if she wants recon.
I guess as I type all of this out, none of the options seem the best. I just keep coming back to what's best for the kids and I feel that this reality right now is not. I am weighing my unhappiness for their stability and if I had to endure that for a while so that life was better for them, I would've done it.
I dunno. I feel like the kids are getting $crewed in this situation and if there was a better option that would've taken their life and happiness and the first priority. The S was about W and her wants and she put everyone else on the chopping block. That selfishness is something I am not cool with.
But I take your points well and you're speaking from experience. I guess there's just no perfect scenario.
**** It's fast from BD to S/D but my counselor says that she has been most likely contemplated this for 3-5 years.
I don't think we'll not have an amicable relationship when it comes to the kids, but I don't envision a friendship or any sort of relationship where I need trust and reliability.
**** You may feel different about this in the future.
I guess as I type all of this out, none of the options seem the best. I just keep coming back to what's best for the kids and I feel that this reality right now is not. I am weighing my unhappiness for their stability and if I had to endure that for a while so that life was better for them, I would've done it.
********** Just because you are willing to sacrifice your unhappiness for your kids doesn't mean she should.
I dunno. I feel like the kids are getting $crewed in this situation and if there was a better option that would've taken their life and happiness and the first priority. The S was about W and her wants and she put everyone else on the chopping block.
******* I'll bet you her version is that she sacrificed her wants and needs for you and the kids for x amount of years and now is her turn to live her life the on her terms.
I am not saying that she is right, I am just saying that you have to let her go. Your kids and your life is not over! There are many chapters that remain to be written.
You're absolutely right LH. I am not hanging on to her. I am working on detachment and I believe I have come to a place honestly where I can say that I have dropped the rope.
The only thing that I am emotionally dealing with is how this is affecting my kids. I am doing everything in my power to write this chapter with them that is absolutely phenomenal. I am not trying to compete with W at who is the better parent. I know what my strengths are and I know what I can bring to the kids lives and support them in everything they do.
I have no rebuttals to what you said. I have to say that I am way more calm and chill internally for myself and I am happier right now. Everything that I can have control over, I am making sure that it is going well. I am making most of the time I have and getting to my goals. I am more settled in my new place outside of a few things here and there.
Thanks for the support LH. I am working every day to be a better dad to my kids and it has been paying good dividends. My kids are far more affectionate with me and I know part of it has to do with them having to live in separate places and the reduced contact. But I am trying to make the best of it with them and hopefully they can adjust over the next few months.
J - haha! yes, it's on my agenda. I was so bogged down with work that I had no time to do anything for the last two weeks. Now things have settled back into normal routine and so my plan is to go and get that done this week. I am also going to the fitness store and getting workout gear on the weekend.
My kids are far more affectionate with me and I know part of it has to do with them having to live in separate places and the reduced contact
I have noticed that as well. I think some of it has to do with the other parent not being there so they are forced to go to us with everything. That's why it is so important that we are available emotionally for them so they can feel secure and get their needs met. I also think when they see us being happy, engaged, etc. it helps them get through the situation because they don't see us being sad or angry. They draw strength from us.
Quote:
I was so bogged down with work that I had no time to do anything for the last two weeks
OK....I will cut you some slack . Make sure they are the white lights.
Perfect time of the year to buy lights - the selection is unbelievable. White lights yes, but I may buy some color ones to mix things up.
Looking for a room divider but nothing interesting. Anything interesting is far too expensive. So, I am going to build one
I am trying to get into more DIY stuff and I am not a beginner when it comes to using basic tools and drills. So, found a great tutorial online for a room divider that includes branches and xmas lights. Trip to Home Depot added to my list of things to do this weekend.
Communications with W have been good as we are wrapping up stuff for the old house - bills etc. She asked if I wanted to join in on Halloween this evening. I wavered for a bit, but then declined. I really don't want to be doing family type stuff - only time I will break it this year is for the kids bdays which are coming up. I think that this year it will be more important to be there together and then I will see for next year how I feel.
She had suggested family dinners few months ago, but nothing has come out of it. Her trouble has always been following through with things and this is probably one of it. I am not going to suggest it as I am fine without them.
Keeping NC/going dark outside of kids stuff is my comfort zone right now and it's going well for me. I have no idea what her life is like and I don't ask, and I really don't care to know.
Only engage in what activities your comfortable with. Over time maybe you will be in a better spot to do things together but right now is probably too soon. Take this time to heal emotionally and mentally. You will know when the time is right.
I agree NC/dark outside of kid or financial matters and don't look for opportunities to engage. I always try to be happy and upbeat, like nothing is wrong but I keep the conversations short, try not to engage in too much dialogue and I don't linger. I never ask her questions about what she does, where she goes, etc. I also try not to ask any who, what, when, who, why, where type of questions.
Yeah you're totally right. In time I don't know how I'll feel, but for now I am taking care of myself emotionally and mentally so that I can be stronger for the kids.
I know LH mentioned something about me feeling differently in the future about my comment on not envisioning a friendship with W. I forgot about that and I wanted to pick up that thread.
I've been abandoned, betrayed, and neglected by some very very close people over the course of my life. In response to that, I developed good survival skills to keep on moving so that life wouldn't fall apart. And one of those mechanisms was that I would immediately cut that person out of my life. In most cases, that was the proper choice because of the amount of damage they could inflict upon me. In other cases, I could have worked to develop a cordial relationship over time, but I didn't.
Through IC and just exploring my behaviors from the past, I have come to understand that I will always have a problem with someone close who abandons and/or betrays me. It is just too fundamental to who I've had to become to survive in life. With the help of IC, I am trying to figure out how to develop a cordial relationship with someone who does that to me. It's not easy but it can work depending on how much damage that person has caused me. Let's get specific.
In case of W, I feel that she deeply betrayed me and broke all the bonds of trust and reliability. My natural instinct would've been to cut her out - and I probably would've gone that way if we didn't have kids. However, kids aside, I realized that I have to learn how to create some type of relationship with W for my own sake of personal growth and development. Would this relationship resemble a friendship? I can't envision that right now because I need trust, reliability, and safety as important core ingredients in that friendship - something I am unwilling to create space for and I don't expect her to do either. I know that this part of me is still coming from a place of hurt and maybe vengefulness. She can't expect or even hope that type of relationship from me after she decided to blow everything up.
So, I will be cordial, and to a great degree I already am. But, am I going to create space for a friendship - I don't see myself doing that ever.
The breach of trust is just too much for me to overcome. Which is partially why I don't think that if she ever comes for recon, that I might be able to do it. I am not trying to dissuade anyone or saying that I've given up hope. I am just getting to a place where I know myself a lot better and am understanding which bridges I would be willing to repair and which ones I can't come back from.
Just as I write this, I sense that I still have some anger inside me. But, I can only be honest about who I am and what I can take.
One of my best friends parents got divorced when he was 12 years old. His parents hated each other. They would get into arguments in the stands at his baseball games and always used his brother and him to get back at one another. Really messed him up and he is still not completely recovered from it.
His father remarried his mother never did. His father second W passed about 5 years ago. About two years ago after both his parents visited his house at the same time they reconnected with one another.
35 years later they now currently spend time almost everyday together playing cards, games and reminiscing about the old days.
Moral of the story is just because you feel this way today doesn't mean you will tomorrow, a year from now, heck 35 years from now.
So, found a great tutorial online for a room divider that includes branches and xmas lights.
That just gave me a flashback, I'm an architect and many years ago I was involved in a Neiman Marcus renovation. Stanley Marcus likes to go shopping around the world, and he brought back these crazy tribal masks from Africa for the store we were working on. They were hung over a beautiful, vintage hardwood floor installed on sleepers over a slab. They were hung there probably 5 years before our renovation. The floor was supposed to remain in place, but some of the boards were loose so they had to be refastened. Except the nails wouldn't bite. They pulled some of the boards up and the wood sleepers underneath looked like sponge. Turns out Stanley had brought back some kind of evil Amazonian termites in those masks, LOL! They completely destroyed the wood floor. So yeah, check those branches before you bring them inside
Originally Posted By: Maika
In case of W, I feel that she deeply betrayed me and broke all the bonds of trust and reliability. My natural instinct would've been to cut her out - and I probably would've gone that way if we didn't have kids. However, kids aside, I realized that I have to learn how to create some type of relationship with W for my own sake of personal growth and development. Would this relationship resemble a friendship? I can't envision that right now because I need trust, reliability, and safety as important core ingredients in that friendship - something I am unwilling to create space for and I don't expect her to do either.
I'm a little farther along in my timeline so I can relate to your thoughts on this as I went through the same thing. I would not call the relationship between XW and me a friendship. We are coparents, we are friendly and cordial towards one another, but she is about the last person I would confide in like I would a friend. You'll get to the point of "acceptance" which is the final stage of grief. You'll accept your sitch as it is, and you'll learn to be at peace with it, and you will move on. That doesn't necessarily mean you'll be friends with your W, but when you get to that point you'll realize you don't need to be friends with her to be friendly with her (if that makes sense). It's like that "friendly neighbor" analogy you hear mentioned here now and then.
Haha! thanks for the tip AS. I will definitely make sure I don't bring in any bugs that might do some damage to the house. I am renting now so it's even more important.
Quote:
I'm a little farther along in my timeline so I can relate to your thoughts on this as I went through the same thing. I would not call the relationship between XW and me a friendship. We are coparents, we are friendly and cordial towards one another, but she is about the last person I would confide in like I would a friend. You'll get to the point of "acceptance" which is the final stage of grief. You'll accept your sitch as it is, and you'll learn to be at peace with it, and you will move on. That doesn't necessarily mean you'll be friends with your W, but when you get to that point you'll realize you don't need to be friends with her to be friendly with her (if that makes sense). It's like that "friendly neighbor" analogy you hear mentioned here now and then
You nailed it! That's exactly what I am talking about. That's what I envision my contact with her will look like. Again, but I don't know what it will be 30 years from now, so LH has a point. However, what she has done for now, I can't condone and she's lied and done a buncha stuff that is just not cool with me. But, she is hardly the person I knew and married.
On a different note, as part of my goals is to get my health back on track. I do track health data to see how I am doing. I was doing it on and off, but since this week, I am doing it regularly so that I can monitor my situation. For the first time in years, my blood pressure is back in the normal range. I was shocked to see it. I measured it three times to make sure the machine was working right. It was so freakin' amazing to see. So, my four pronged approach is working and I am doing to keep at it:
1. Take my meds every day consistently 2. Eat right 3. Physical exercise (working out and climbing) 4. Meditation
I am doing all of those except working out because I still need to set up my home gym, which is happening this weekend or next week. But I have been climbing 2 times a week regularly and my skill level has dramatically increased in the last month.
So, I am super pumped about my health getting back on track. Lost a few pounds which was nice too
Nothing new to report. Things are pretty status quo with W. I am NC/Dark with communications only around kids stuff. I am pretty good with it and my mental sanity has improved.
Just wanted to share an excerpt of a poem that I rediscovered through this process and has added so much meaning to me. I am translating it into English as best as I can.
Make yourself so strong and resilient That before every decree of fate God will ascertain from you "What is it that you desire?"
It is really beautiful in the original language and I've tried to keep that beauty in the translation as much as possible. This verse keeps me going every day and I have gained a new appreciation for it considering where I am in my life right now.
The new place is coming along. Got the workout equipment being delivered this weekend and I am on the hunt for some furniture for my room. Getting some artwork and then the lights as well. I need to put some furniture around so that I can figure out where I will put up the xmas lights in the bedroom.
My V appointment is coming up soon and I am looking forward to getting that done. Also, working on some tattoo designs and I've put them on hold for a long time. Now going to get some ink done by the end of the year too Lotsa good and fun stuff happening
Sounds Awesome! I would like to do some things around my house as well. I need a new bed for the spare bedroom to replace the 1 my took when she moved out however I currently don't have the funds. I just cancelled my home phone and cable to reduce some costs and I bought 1 of those fire sticks. Need to look for some other cost cutting options as well.
Good luck on the V appointment. Not sure what that is but hopefully it goes well. I have 1 tattoo on my back got it when I was in college on Spring Break. I made sure I put it in a place where it would never be seen at work.
What type of designs are you working on? Is this something that your really interested in? Are you still rock climbing?
Yeah cost cutting measures are good at this point. What's a fire stick?
The vasectomy (V) appointment Been thinking about it for a couplea yrs now and just getting it done. I know I don't want any more kids and who knows that the future holds in terms of an R, but the last thing I want to worry about is having another kid.
The tattoos I am working on are calligraphy designs. I am not an artist in that sense that I can paint awesome stuff, but I am quite good at calligraphy and lettering. So, I am doing that for my kids names in my language and then will pair that up with some artwork from a tattoo artist. I know what I want but I can't draw worth $hit lol.
My work is pretty flexible, but I can cover up the tattoos that I have if I need to with a full sleeve shirt.
I am still climbing for sure. It is going to be for life. It has become such a meaningful activity for me, beyond what I thought it would be. I went in wanting to be physically active and do something that I've always wanted. But as I have gotten much better and started paying attention to technique, I have realized how amazing it is for all my DB goals.
When you're climbing, it's just you and the wall. My focus is 100% on that wall and also I am hyper aware of my body and how I am using it. Also, I am solving a problem that is mental and physical. I completely concentrate on the route, take it slowly, and make very deliberate choices. I take calculated risks and exercise great control over my footholds and handholds. It has been phenomenal for mindfulness - it's like zen for me while I am exerting my physicality.
So, climbing is the perfect activity and metaphor for what I am trying to do with my life. And it is helping me with that - physically I am way stronger and I've lost weight; mentally I am much more mindful and self aware and controlled in my actions and reactions.
I am a climber for life now. I am going to keep working on my physical and mental abilities till next summer and then take it outdoors. I really wish I had done this few years back, but never too late. Another awesome thing - I take my kids with me every other week and they are fanatics about it too. So, I get to share this new experience with them and maybe it will be something that they pursue as they get older. But it will always be something special between me and the kids.
A fire stick has a bunch of apps on it where you can stream shows/movies. You plug it into your TV like a jump drive. You can also take it where ever you want as long as you have a data connection. It's not live TV......many people use one if they don't have a smart TV so they can get Netflix, etc. I will be using it for the first time tonight.
I got a V about 5 years ago. It was kind of painful and I do get some pain down south from time to time. They say it is common, just do your research and make sure the Dr is good. You don't want an amateur messing around with the boys
Climbing sounds like your outlet. That is awesome that you discovered it, IMO everyone needs a release and I know many people struggle to find what works for them. Next year this time you will be hanging upside down
Sounds like you are doing great Maika! I've always been fascinated by tattoos, but my XW did not like them. So since BD, hey, what she likes and dislikes is no longer my concern. 4 years later I have a full leg sleeve and full arm sleeve, LOL!
Hey M, I would suggest looking up 'Still I Rise, by Maya Angelou. I found that so supremely helpful in my situation. I am glad to hear you are working on some artwork. Any hint as to what it is?
I am working on a shoulder piece that is a yin yang Phoenix/Koi (Rebirth, and overcoming adversity) With something along the lines of "From the ashes I will rise, to swim in still waters"
Married 9: Together 11 M:37 W:35 S:2 D:7 Bomb dropped 6/3/2017 W moved out 7/1/2017 Separation Filed: 8/1/2017 Modified to Divorce: 8/21/2017 Divorced: 10/5/2017
Thanks J. Yehh the V doc is good and he's been doing it for a couplea decades now. I think I am in good hands
That's great AS about your tats - full leg and arm sleeves - niceeeee. I am working on my arm sleeve and W had said it would look amazing on me. So, time to get 'er done
I have three and the last one i got was over a decade ago. Been meaning to get some more but never got around to it. Now, I am working on my designs and pretty psyched to get them done.
Yeah I am doing pretty good all in all. I hope to just continue getting better and working towards my goals. I am feeling more content.
I have three and the last one i got was over a decade ago. Been meaning to get some more but never got around to it. Now, I am working on my designs and pretty psyched to get them done.
Excellent! I used to have more than I do now. I'm down to two. My tattoo artist said his goal is to get down to one.
NC/Dark and having very limited contact with W has helped immensely in this process. It has helped me work on detachment and I am just focusing on my goals and figuring out steps to make them a reality.
W does sometimes sends personal texts that are mixed in with messages about the kids. I used to read into those but now they just slide right off me.
My D is having her bday soon and I am wondering if we should celebrate it together or not. I am definitely doing something for them on my own and D and Dad time, but still not decided whether I will do a celebration with W together. The only reason I would do it if it might be better for D right now, but I also feel that her spending quality time with me and celebrating it with me will be a lot of fun. I want to make a grand day out of it and it will be her time with me. Lets see.
Hey M...I have been struggling with the same thing for Christmas. Whether or not to do a family thing or whoever doesn't have our girls just wakes up Christmas morning to some quiet time. Keep me posted on your thought process.
My D is having her bday soon and I am wondering if we should celebrate it together or not. I am definitely doing something for them on my own and D and Dad time, but still not decided whether I will do a celebration with W together. The only reason I would do it if it might be better for D right now
Yeah, this can be a tough one. I think you are in the right place mentally to go either way with it. IE, you can invite her and not be upset if she refuses, and you can have a party with her there without it being pursuit behavior. So in YOUR case I think it's fine to invite her. I wouldn't say that to some others here just due to their emotional fragility right now.
In my case XW and I did continue to do the kids' birthdays and Christmas mornings together with our kids at my place or hers, and in fact we still do. Neither of us has brought an OP along though.
Hey J. Yeh, I think this is a bit of a tough one just because trying to figure out the balance between what might be best for the kids vs what you want to do as DBing.
Like AS pointed out, I feel like I am in a much better place emotionally and mentally that I could go either way as I have no expectations from having W around. At the same time, I am also really psyched about creating some tradition with my kids that include quality time with them and me on these types of special days.
D hasn't asked yet whether we're doing the bday with me and W. Not sure what W has planned in terms of the bday celebration. I am leaning towards planning my day with D and having a fun day with her. I also want to step into a different role for these days than I did in the past. In the past, W would organize the bday and all of that and her and I would make the cake together. I would run the bday parties but she would do all the organization and planning. I want to take a more active role now and plan and do something all by myself - which includes learning how to bake some good cakes lol. I am great at cooking, but W did all the baking.
I am going to wait to see if W invites me to whatever bday celebration she's planning. I am going to go ahead and plan a day for myself anyways because there are things I want to do with D and make her day special.
I think your xmas situation is fairly similar. I favor Sandi's more hardline stance that the WAS/WW doesn't get to partake in 'family' activities anymore. This counts as one of them. I personally don't consider us as a 'family' unit. We're co-parents.
I also want kids to adjust to this new normal because even if we celebrate something together this year, I don't plan on doing that indefinitely. I'd rather have my special time with the kids on their bdays and she can do her thing. I take the separation down to the letter pretty much - she asked for it and doesn't want to work on the MR whatsoever, so be it. I get to control what I want to do and how.
So, I am going to wait and see what W says and gauge how the kids are feeling about this. If I sense that we should have a joint celebration, then I will do it. I will still plan a special day with D so that I get quality time with her for her bday. I don't want to make a decision from a point of being punitive to W, but she doesn't get the same level of cooperation and access to me and my time any more. I will only agree to it if it seems better for the kids. And I will do it this year if it comes down to it and assess again next year.
I didn't go for Halloween this year with W because I didn't want to. Kids still had a blast and I had a blast with them about the candy and everything afterwards.
Just got my home gym equipment delivered!! Yeaaaayyy!!! I feel like a kid in a candy store lol. I didn't spend extra cash for them to set it up. So, tonight I have a date with my equipment and I am looking forward to setting it all up and then start my workout routines tomorrow.
The new place is slowly coming together. Next - xmas lights for the bedroom and some furniture. Going back out for that this afternoon
I got a rack with a chin up bar. a bench, a set of weight plates and olympic lifting bar, a curved bar, and some free weights. It's a good starter kit for all the stuff I want to do and I can keep adding to it over time.
I am really excited to put it all up together and then start working towards my health goals.
Hey M....good for you that is awesome! I am happy that you are making progress and really making your new place into your own. That is a very healthy sign and I am glad you are seeing some personal benefits of being able to start detaching from your W. It definately is a process and not a light switch. I am starting to find myself not thinking about my W for periods of time which is a good thing.
Is your first workout slated for tomorrow? How is the sound system?
Yeah keeping the focus on myself and just slowly working towards all my goals has been really good for me. W still takes up enough mental space right now that I know I am still quite a ways away from feeling truly detached. I know it takes time, but now with everything set up at home with the gym, it will be a huge step forward for me.
I was going to workout today but last night I realized I needed another wrench to put everything together. Stores were closed and so I went this morning to get it and finally got around to setting everything up this evening. It's all done now and I will wake up tomorrow and do my first workout. Pretty excited.
I have a wireless speaker that I can play stuff from my phone. So, that is going to stay in the gym area and I already have some workout playlists from before. Will update them.
Got some climbing in today and had time to go get some furniture as well. so, pretty productive day. Now I am just going to unwind and get ready for the work week.
That mental space gets less and less as the days and months go on. I can't imagine going through in-house separation and each spouse probably not getting the time and space they need to process everything emotionally. IMO the quicker you find yourself and come to a place of internal happiness the quicker you will recover emotionally.
Did you get your first workout in this am? When I was growing up my buddies dad built himself a home gym in his garage and he hung mirrors all over the walls and on the ceiling. It was pretty cool....he always had the music cranked and was working out when I came over. Sleeves rolled up with a smoke hanging out of his mouth. Almost American Beauty style!
Sounds like your place is really coming along. Has your W seen it yet? Do the kids like it?
The mental space is definitely getting better. The more I fill my life with things that I want to do, the less idle time I have on my mind to think about W.
Sounds like your buddy's dad had an awesome home gym. What a way to workout with a smoke at the same time. Alpha male on high gear lol.
Yeh, the place is coming along good. I should have it all set up by the end of the year. I have a DIY project planned but it will have to wait for a little bit, which is okay. W saw the place couple of weeks back and it has changed dramatically since then as I have put stuff up and got more furniture. There hasn't been a reason for me to invite her to my place and I haven't been to her place in a long time either. Kids love the new space and they've gotten used to it now.
All in all, life is coming together. My blood pressure is still doing great and my sugar levels are normalizing with me eating better, being physically active, and doing some light meditation. I feel a lot less stressed. I think it has a lot to do with the mental shift that I've been working on towards becoming less controlling - it's already improved my relationships with the kids and I feel a lot more at ease. It has also allowed me to give W the benefit of the doubt in certain cases recently - I would've chalked up her behavior to being disorganized and flakey previously, but instead I trust that she did things in a good way and everything was fine. And if she forgot because of whatever reason, it's okay because I forget to do $hit too and it's not because she's a bad planner. As soon as I let myself reframe my thoughts, I just got so calm and realized I was getting worked up over nothing.
So, mental focus and letting go of control has been a huge help.
It has also allowed me to give W the benefit of the doubt in certain cases recently - I would've chalked up her behavior to being disorganized and flakey previously, but instead I trust that she did things in a good way and everything was fine. And if she forgot because of whatever reason, it's okay because I forget to do $hit too and it's not because she's a bad planner.
I think this is one of the last pieces for me to fall into place. To not judge her on what she is doing as a parent, what she forgets to do and/or what activities she chooses to participate in. Good for you on recognizing and not falling into the trap.
Okay! Had a phone convo with W and I don't know what to make of it. So, I'll post the highlights here and people can give me their take. I'll clarify if I haven't explained well.
So I was out picking up some furniture and W called me to talk. She was mad about something I had emailed her a while ago about finances and I guess it triggered some of the stuff she's been angry about.
She started the call with saying that this has been on her mind for a few weeks and she just wanted to call and let me know. She basically let me have it for a few minutes about the financial issue and I validated what she was saying.
However, this took a different turn. I don't completely suck at validation, but she told me that I haven't been real with her at all and that all this stuff that I am saying is just trying to placate her and tell her what she wants to hear. I was saying stuff like "I understand you feel this way"; "I am sorry that is upsetting you"; "It sounds like you are angry about this" etc etc.
She was having none of it. She said that it sounds like the past where I don't tell her how I really feel and just acknowledge things. I told her that I am being real and I am not trying to placate her.
It then went into her saying how I've never expressed how I have felt and that saying that things are good. I've never told her that I am angry, sad, etc etc. To which I said of course I have, but I am not going to throw around things and yell and whatever.
Some of the other main things she said:
"If you want to talk about something why don't you initiate it" "I never said that I wanted you to give me space" "I said no to marriage counseling because I can't commit to saving the marriage" "I am really angry and I have to figure out a way to work it out somehow" "I need you to be real with me and if something is on your mind I need you to talk to me about it"
Some of my responses:
"of course there are things that I want to talk about" "you asked for a separation which I understood as you wanting to have your own space and time away from me" "of course I am angry about so many things" "I can respect that you don't want to go to MC"
OKAY! So I have NO idea WTF is going on. We agreed to meet this Saturday to talk about 'us'. I don't even know where to start. And before anyone says that let her start and keep talking, I am going to tell you that she's going to upfront ask me what I want to talk about. Through DBing, I have been very good at not having R talks since the last time I had a big convo with her almost 2 months back.
But, now this. I don't know what to do because obviously there are things that I can get into, but I'd rather have her unload on me and I'll figure out a way to deal with it. I dunno.
I could just hear the anger in her voice and she becomes very emotional and weepy and that was her on the phone most of the time. She wanted me to come over to talk tonight but I declined and said that I was in the middle of something and maybe the weekend would be best. She agreed and we're talking this weekend.
I know she will be angry during the conversation and I don't feel any inclination to just be a doormat and take it. She hates it when I validate her and so I am going to stray away from that as much as possible, but throw in a few here and there. It's going to be a high conflict situation and I feel like anything I say is going to be me defending myself. I want to acknowledge the parts where I failed in the MR, but there is tons of [censored] she messed up too.
I bought myself a week to think about it and how to approach it. Also get some advice from the board.
I want to stand up for myself and not just take a $hit sandwich.
Also, I am just so effin' worked up right now. My blood pressure is probably through the roof lol. I feel like at this point, I have nothing to lose and I just need to give it to W straight. Anyways, just writing down some early thoughts, but I have a few days to get my $hit together.
Wow M so she comes out of hybernation. Do you think this could be a major temp check to see where you stand? It kinda sounds like it to me. I also don't think she is sure what she wants and I am not sure she done with the MR yet either.
If she initiates the conversation whats wrong with engaging in the R talks? What is wrong with telling her how you feel? I am not talking about all the lovey dovey stuff and I want you back, I love you, etc. Just a matter of fact conversation about how you honestly feel, what would need to change, etc? You still have no proof of OM correct?
Not saying this is correct but something to think about.
I don't think it's a temp check. It didn't sound like it. She said she isn't in a place where she can see being part of saving the marriage, and that she doesn't want to go to MC and drag it out because she doesn't have that commitment right now. I told her I can respect her decision and where she's coming from. But, she's got a lot of anger that she's not getting any help for.
I feel like this conversation is going to be her unloading on me and arguing with me.
I agree with you on talking about how I feel and what would need to change. I have taken accountability for my actions and I can do that again. Part of me still fears seeing all that anger from her, which in a weird way makes me angry because I am not all to blame.
But, I want to work on being not angry and just cool calm collected and straight to the point.
No proof of OM, but I will be bringing that up in terms of what I believe was an EA, which I believe did contribute greatly to the BD. I don't think she sees it as an EA.
But, what I know is going to happen is that we're going to sit down and she's going to ask me "what do you want to talk about"... and this is where I am tripping right now. I'd rather have her bring up whatever she wants to start with and then take it from there. But, if I have to start, then I need to think about where to start.
I know that this is going to be a minefield and that I could potentially really damage any chances I might have for a recon. At the same time, if I don't do it, W will see it as the same old me that doesn't share with her and avoids conflict.
I don't see what I have to lose right now. I was thinking about pitching whether we go to a MC who can help us navigate these conversations, but I don't have the money to drop right now for professional divorce management, which is what this would be. So, my best option is to have this conversation and keep DB in mind and do the best I can under the situation.
Careful. Just slow down. Slow everything down. Seriously.
I don't think this is the time to "give it to her straight".
Being a doormat is one thing. Validating with a strong, calm and confident tone is another thing.
You really can't work yourself up like this. You have to remain calm in your approach.
Think about everything you are about to say. Before you say it.
Speak in a calm and confident voice. Do not speak fast or ramble sentences together, just to "get it out".
This might be the start of many talks, so you DO NOT need to get it all out in this one conversation.
You need to enter this conversation like YOU left HER and she might be trying to get YOU back. You are strong, calm, confident and stable.
This might be a first step. Don't f-ck it up by accusing, blaming and finger-pointing.
The squirrel might be peeking her head out of her hole. Do you think it would be best to wave your hands and make a bunch of noise? What do you think that squirrel would do if you did that?
You got this. Forget trying to rehearse a speech. Just remain all of the following, no matter what she says or how heated she gets. Let her be the crazy loose cannon. Because you will be the stable rock.
Thanks Matrix for bringing me back to the ground after me whirling around close to the sun.
Oddly, I feel really calm and okay about it today. I just thought of my goals and what I am doing and it gave me a great boost. Also, I bumped Rage Against The Machine really loud while driving to work, so that helped lol.
I get your point about not giving to her straight. I just need to think about what I could bring up to talk about if she asks me 'what do you want to talk about'. She's always done that since BD and I am sensing it is because she's also afraid of bringing things up.
There's tons of stuff that I can bring up:
- Bad communication - Poor sex life - Her possible EA - Avoiding conflict - My depression and how it affected things - Me being NGS and not wanting to rock the boat
I know she will rage at me a bit no matter what we talk about and I am okay with that. In the past I would just want it to all go away and end the conflict, but I feel like I am in a place where I can be strong and confident and let her unload without going nuts on her.
I will re-read the validation cheat sheet and really prepare myself for that and make it natural as possible.
I don't want to throw truth bombs at her, but she wants to see some real vulnerability from me. I can give her that and tell her how I have felt about certain things without saying 'you did this'.
I am not trying to rehearse, but I want to have a loose game plan so that I don't veer off course and I have some things that I can say.
So Matrix, I can do it no doubt. I am glad I bought myself a few days so that I could prepare myself mentally and emotionally.
Main thing you mentioned that is important for me is to slow it down and not ramble. I have the tendency to ramble at times and I definitely don't want to do that.
The thing is, I have owned up to my failures, but maybe not in a very detailed way. She hasn't expressed any apologies for anything she's done. Only said she knows that it wasn't all me. I would need her to own up to her $hit, but it doesn't have to be this talk.
I guess my main goal is to show her that I can provide a safe space for her to say whatever she wants to say and remain strong, calm, confident, and not be a doormat. I am not going to keep apologizing over and over again.
So, any tips on what to say to start a conversation would be appreciated. I can joke around and talk about small stuff in the beginning no problem.
Thanks folks. It looks like I am getting to the worst part of the process before it can get any better.
M...you got this. Calm, cool, collected, very matter of fact. You didn't do all of this work for the past 6 months or so for nothing
Who was the one that requested the meeting? Did she ask you to come over and then you suggested a sit down? What gave her the idea you wanted to talk about anything? Or is it in context with you never telling her how you feel about the situation?
Obviously your not 100 sure where she is going to go with it but do you know what you want? What if through the course of the conversation you find out about OM? Is that a deal breaker? You have said before she would need to change before you took her back. What would that look like?
When I think about my W approaching me about our R I picture myself listening, validating and letting her know I need some time to process. If she asked me what my feelings where I would tell her I was initially shocked, hurt and angry. However once I was able to step away and look at things clearly I realized that I wasn't happy either. The anger turned to sadness, the hurt went away and I became more accepting of how you felt. Then I started looking at myself objectively and put all of my focus into my own happiness, my own self-confidence and then I realized that I am going to be happy with any outcome because I found myself. The time, the space, the distance allowed me to find myself and that is all that I will really ever need. Maybe not these specific words but something that let's her know your good, your not sitting their graveling, pining away that your a man of value and that you don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you. Your not just sitting around.
If she asked me what would need to change in our R I would let her know that we need to work on our communication (I could give specific examples if needed), we need to spend more quality time together and put our MR first before ourselves and the kids, do more things together as a family and spend more time connecting individually. I would also say sex life as well but I think that is a product of intimacy and connecting so sex would probably increase as a result of being closer. So I am not sure I personally would bring up sex but I would need to think on it.
I also think your W needs to know your a different person as well. What if she asks you what have you been doing with your time? You could play it coy or you could just let her know. Maybe not in this meeting but as you go through the process. You enjoy rock climbing, your new home gym. some of the artistic things you have re-discovered and those GAL activities will be in your life moving forward. How have your expectations changed of her? What would you want her to do differently, your non-negotiables?
Again all of this may not come out in 1 conversation but just stuff to think about. I think this is also about your confidence level and do you feel as though your in a position to communicate your wants/needs/desires and do so with the understanding that she may not be able to deliver and if she doesn't you either accept her or you move on.
When I think about having this conversation with my W it makes it easier when I tell myself we are already D'd. We are separated, finances and time with the kids split what do I have to lose? Hell, I have already lost it.
Thank you so much for sharing what you would say in this situation and it gives me a great foundation to talk to her. I think that I will start out with telling her how I felt during BD and a bit afterwards. And then see where it goes from there.
If she asks me how we can improve our relationship, I will let her know that currently as it stands, our R is just centered around the kids and I am a 100% co-parent with her and will be proactive in our communications and plans about that.
She has said she doesn't want to save the MR, so I won't share what I think I would want for that unless she explicitly wants to talk about that.
With my GAL stuff, I can be pretty upfront about it. She already knows that I go climbing.
This is all good stuff. I will think it over and make a bit of a game plan.
The funny thing is that she says she doesn't want to save the MR but yet she wants to have this deep discussion with you. Not sure I would believe everything she says
Yeah, that's what I don't get. Why have these types of conversations if you're done and have said that you're out the door and never turning back.
I definitely don't believe in everything she says and with her revisionist history of the MR, I know that it's all skewed and she's cherry picking stuff.
I am not going to mind read, but my sense is that this is her move for seeing if I can be a safe person for her to share and vice versa. In some ways it is bananas because I have zero trust and by creating a separation like this, she has created an environment that makes me have no interest in being vulnerable. When I told her I wanted to work on the MR and all of that, she turned it down flat. I was willing at that time to be vulnerable and do the hard work and she wasn't. Maybe she is now, but she doesn't really know exactly what that will look like and wants to feel it out.
So, I can give her some honesty and vulnerability, as I have no expectations that this will lead to her changing her mind or anything else.
I don't know what triggered this for her.
She didn't request the meeting but she kept asking me 'is there anything you want to talk about'. she said it over and over again. If I had said 'no' at that point, it would be blatantly dishonest. So, I said of course there are things that I would like to talk about. And then she asked me when. I told her I can talk any time and put the question back to her. She said any time as well. She wanted to do it yesterday evening after the phone call, but I couldn't because I was in the middle of something, but also because I needed to take a step back and think about this conversation - which was a good decision. So, we agreed on this weekend and she's coming over to my place.
I don't know if I believe her stance on not wanting to work on the MR, but I am going to take that comment on face value and not try to speculate or read more into it. It's going to be one conversation at a time.
You could have taken this approach or just told her there was nothing to discuss unless you want to work on the MR. Just show her a strong, confident, calm and cool M that doesn't get emotional, who is secure with himself, who is not needy and see where the conversation goes. Have no expectations and just be honest. Maybe she needs some closure or maybe she needs to know you still love her. If it starts to head down that path, make her wonder, make her chase you, be the prize.
You're right about the two approaches. Maybe she needs closure. Maybe she just needs to unload. I just remembered an interesting exchange on the phone.
After the 'do you want talk about something' and her pushing me on it and me saying that there are things I would want to talk about, I asked her why does she want to talk about 'us'. She said because it's important for you. So, I said, is it important for you? She said, it is important for her because it was important for me. So, I left it at that.
Yes, I will be cool calm and collected. I think I am going to talk about my feelings during BD and some of the stuff afterwards. And then I am going to leave it open to see what she wants to say and talk about.
I am definitely not going to give her the impression that I want to chase her or I will take her back as is. She wants the MR, then she'll have to put the work in. And I will tell her what that is if she asks. I am not going to volunteer information and just ramble. This has to be controlled and calm.
I think that I got this and I have some time to just emotionally and mentally prep for it.
Haha!! You read my mind brother. I am definitely going to be doing that. Used it the first time yesterday and it was awesome. Felt pumped.
Sent a text to W and shouldn't have done it. It probably got her more pissed off. Just thanked her for connecting with me yesterday even though it was a difficult convo. Just realizing now that she hated that kind of phrasing where I would say things like 'thanks' or 'I appreciate'.. ahh oh well! I need to get that out of my vocabulary for a little while.
Matrix, I am going to be re-reading your post and J-dawg's post to get my mind and heart ready for this convo.
But something you said, I just want to vocalize my thoughts on it. I don't think you meant it this way, but I was thinking about my boundaries and what I will accept and what I won't tolerate.
She can be the 'crazy loose cannon' and that's fine, but I won't be yelled and screamed at. If she does that, I am ending the convo. I won't be disrespected.
I understand she's angry, but I am not going to be her punching bag. I am also angry and I have not treated her as a punching bag. She can be angry, but if it's yelling and screaming, I am ending the convo.
If she admits to OM and dating and all of that, I am ending the convo. I won't sit there being disrespected and I am certainly not okay with an open marriage.
Also, there is no 'us' conversation unless she wants to work on the MR. If she asks what that would look like, I will give her a couple of things that would be non-negotiable for me - like MC.
Also, I am not interested in being her 'friend'.
As far as I can see, there are only two dimensions to our relationship moving forward. 1) we work together as co-parents and I am there 1000% with her on that. I can be cordial, friendly, and cooperative; 2) we work on 'us', which has a number of things that I'd want as part of the process.
If she tells me all kinds of things that I believe is revisionist history and cherry picking, I am not going to argue with her about it and just validate her feelings and try to not get into it too much. I don't want to be defending myself or arguing with her over minutae at this point. But, I want her to know that I am listening to her actively and it's registering.
One of the issues is that I don't wear my heart on the sleeve and I don't cry often. It's not something I can change over night, or ever. She takes that as me being unemotional and uncaring. I don't know how to fix that. I am not suddenly going to burst into tears in front of her because of whatever she said.
Anyways, just putting down some thoughts and wanting to make sure I am enforcing my boundaries, which are about me, and not taking $hit from her.
M....question. Why do you think she has gotten you all worked up? When you were married and you had arguments how would they start and how would they end? If you think about it from a 180 standpoint how would a new M approach these types of discussions?
I think I am worked up because I don't want to take $hit from her. I don't want to be pushed into any conversation that I don't want to have, like about 'us'. I can give her some idea of what that would look like for me, but I am not going into a long discussion about our intimacy issues. I think it's irrelevant at this point unless she wants to work on the MR.
When we were married, one of our issues was that we wouldn't have arguments. We were both conflict avoiders and the times when we would have an argument - almost always started by her - then I would just focus on resolving it and placating her even if I disagreed with whatever she was saying.
A new M would approach conflict productively - both of us would voice our feelings and then work together to solve the issue. We would bring issues to the table and not sweep them under the rug. I would also put my needs on the table on the issue and what I thought of it instead of trying to 'fix' it or resolve it as soon as possible. I would also not be scared by her anger and stand up for myself in a calm cool way. I would walk away if she was using me as a punching bag.
I think that would be a good start to managing conflict in a healthy way. Also, not to shy away from it but be proactive in dealing with it.
Maika, I like how you're thinking about boundaries for your upcoming convo. It's the best way to face the unknown. I personally suspect it's a temp check.
Where will you have this convo? Will it be someplace where you can get up and leave if things become unproductive?
Regarding revisionist history, I've noticed my STBXW likes to bring up the past a lot. It could be she's trying to convince herself of her actions. It could be she wants me to apologize for my faults, so she feels justified. Or maybe she just had too much cabbage for dinner.
Remember, keep your expectations in check.
Me-47,XW-43 S13,S16 M:18 BD:4-23-17 W filed:7-17-17 (5 months of in-house separation hell) W moved out:1-6-18 D granted:2-15-18 Decree signed:3-29-18
Yeah Holding, it could be a temp check, who knows. I just realized that if I don't actively manage my boundaries, then she's going to take me to town and it will reproduce the same dynamics in the MR. I am not tolerating being disrespected and someone $hitting all over me.
In terms of revisionist history, I am not going to argue with her. I am going to try and validate without coming across as patronizing. Also, I know she will most likely look for me to respond to whatever revisionist history she's talking about and her feelings about it. This will be her way of getting me to argue with her or put my position on it.
I thought a lot about how to handle this and my plan is to validate and then say something like:
"I am taking your feelings seriously about x thing/event and I am not going to argue with you because your feelings are real, and how you feel is real. I want to listen to you and understand how all of this has made you feel. I had no idea that you felt this way"
This way I don't have to argue with her about how she has warped our MR history in her head because that is a lose-lose conversation for me and it invalidates how she feels. I will add some of my thoughts for whatever is being talked about, but I will do that mildly and not become argumentative.
If she thinks our whole MR was horrible for her - which she has said once - then there is absolutely no point in trying to convince her otherwise. There were tons of good times according to me and if she doesn't see that, then you're wasting your breath.
I am just trying to think through what I want to get out of this convo and how I want to handle myself.
Expectations are at sub zero temperatures lol. If this turns out to be a temp check, she's not getting 'I want you back, i love you' etc etc from me.
Unfortunately this convo will be at my place because of the kids schedule. If she goes against any of my boundaries, I am just going to ask her to leave and she can show herself out. I can't run away from my own place as kids will be sleeping, so I will have to ask her to leave.
All in all, I feel better about taking some time to think it through and get feedback from folks here. Helped tremendously
Unfortunately this convo will be at my place because of the kids schedule. If she goes against any of my boundaries, I am just going to ask her to leave and she can show herself out. I can't run away from my own place as kids will be sleeping, so I will have to ask her to leave.
Will she respect your request to leave? (My STBXW wouldn't.)
Can you reschedule to a neutral place or maybe hers? The power to end a conversation is important IMO.
Me-47,XW-43 S13,S16 M:18 BD:4-23-17 W filed:7-17-17 (5 months of in-house separation hell) W moved out:1-6-18 D granted:2-15-18 Decree signed:3-29-18
Yeh I’m certain she would leave and respect my wishes. I can just walk out of the room if needed. There isn’t any other solution right now. I don’t want to drag this out.
Just came back from climbing and it was a great thing. Worked on a new route and made it 3 quarters of the way. Tried it a number of times. Gonna go back to solve it later this week. It was just what I needed after work today. Working out tomorrow morning. I might do it in my pajamas, who knows. I’m loving having my gear at home. Also picked up some new calligraphy pens for my tattoo designs. Will work on it tonight. I’m pumped to get em designed and then going to the shop to find an artist who can do fine lines. Feeling pretty positive and good.
I think I am worked up because I don't want to take $hit from her.
Maybe it would help if you set the expectations. W I know we have some thing to discuss and I would appreciate it we talk in a calm manner so that it can be a productive conversation. Something like that.
Quote:
When we were married, one of our issues was that we wouldn't have arguments. We were both conflict avoiders and the times when we would have an argument - almost always started by her -
My W would start most of our discussion and would avoid them mainly because when I argued back she wouldn't accept responsibility and turned it around on me. Again maybe set the expectation that when you talk you are no longer going to avoid the tough conversations. You may not agree with what I am going to say but it is my truth. I don't want to sweep things under the rug any more because nothing will get solved.
Quote:
I would also not be scared by her anger and stand up for myself in a calm cool way. I would walk away if she was using me as a punching bag.
Good, don't be scared but if she gets angry vs just walking away maybe tell her that you would appreciate it if she could talk in a calm manner and if you can't then we can revisit this conversation when your in a better place.
Thanks J for the tips. I forget where, but recently on someone's thread I saw someone post about the different levels of standing your ground. And on top of that list was being cool and collected and not walking away. It might've been on Tread's or Holding's threads - I'll have to find it, but it was really good advice on how to deal with someone is being a loose cannon. I can't remember who gave the advice either. I'll go dig.
But, I am feeling pretty okay about it all. I can manage it well and having some time to think about it will be useful.
Get your game face on M..........it's been the off season, you have been preparing, working out hard, getting your mind and body right for the new season. Time to put your off season work to use. I feel a triple double coming on. Game time is pain time!
haha yes!!! it's game time for sure. I did put in some hard work during the off season and now it's time for that triple double. I am gonna be cooler than a polar bear's toe nails
I forget where, but recently on someone's thread I saw someone post about the different levels of standing your ground. And on top of that list was being cool and collected and not walking away. It might've been on Tread's or Holding's threads - I'll have to find it, but it was really good advice on how to deal with someone is being a loose cannon. I can't remember who gave the advice either. I'll go dig.
Yes, thank you Holding. And thank you Accuray for breaking it down. I am just copying it here again.
If W is having a temper tantrum the "hierarchy of strength" is as follows:
1) Stay in her presence and maintain your composure. This is the hardest thing to do, therefore it takes the most strength. I heard a talk once where the person asked "if you were at a restaurant with your spouse and you wanted to make them instantly very angry, would you know what to do or say?" For most people the answer is "definitely" -- she knows what buttons to push. (The other half of that was "if you wanted to make them feel loved would you know what to do or say?" and that tends to be more elusive)
Staying in her presence doesn't mean you have to tolerate anything. You can just calmly repeat "I will not engage in conversation with you if you ________. If you want to discuss this calmly, I'm happy to talk to you." Lather, rinse, repeat.
2) Announce to her that you're going to leave the conversation and why (calmly). Then give her a chance to continue the conversation on your terms. If she doesn't abide by your boundaries, then you leave, and explain that you told her what you needed, she didn't do it, and now you're leaving the conversation.
3) Explain to her that you're going to leave the conversation, but don't give her a chance to correct her behavior, just leave.
4) Leave the conversation without explaining to her why you're doing it.
5) Let her get your emotions up and lose your temper.
Evaluate where you are on the spectrum -- if you're at 3 or 4, don't try to just shoot for 1 because chances are you won't be able to do it. Just try to go one notch up the scale until that feels comfortable, and then try to go one more notch up. Be patient with yourself, changing behavior is very hard and takes time and repetition, but eventually it becomes automatic
My son got in trouble at school today. Just got called by the Principal and we had a good chat. My son is going through separation anxiety and it's killing me right now how this is impacting him.
I am so pissed off. I am going to call and cancel the meet with W this weekend because I will not have a convo with her when children are around. I don't want them to accidentally overhear anything, even if it's calm and collected.
When $hit like this hits the fan for my kids, I have no desire to want anything from W. I don't know if I can let go of my anger for this particular piece. I have let go of my anger for what W did as BD and everything else, but this I just can't do it. Thinking about recon makes me want to puke right now. What a f****n disaster this is. Absolute garbage.
Thanks J. When it comes to how my kids are dealing with this and the $hitstorm because of the separation, I just want nothing to do with W anymore. The level of selfishness on her part is just destroying any piece of me that hopes for a recon. I just feel like it's better for me to just move on and make sure that my kids are okay.
I am not doing DB for a recon, but I can't ignore the impact it's having on my kids, which then erodes any level of respect that I have for W.
My chat with the Principal was really good. She was very understanding. She asked my son what he was feeling and he said "I am sad because my family is breaking up". When the Principal told me that, I just wanted to about die. The hurt that he's going through is killing me inside.
I spoke with him this evening and he told me the same. He said that W told him last night that her and I were breaking up. She said that in response to something he asked her about living in two separate homes.
Man, that kid is weathering so much. I just gave him so much love tonight and we talked about our feelings and that it's okay to express them. I told him that we're going to have Dad and kids 'RealTalk' every night where we can share our feelings that we experienced during the day. And then I gave him examples of being happy, tired, sad, annoyed, joyful etc. Boys tend to bottle stuff up from an early age and I just want to break that right now because he's in such a difficult position.
So, we're going to do RealTalk every night. This has given me even more motivation to be the bestest Dad that I can be for him. So, my personal goals are now not just about my self, but so that I am around long enough for my kids. Particularly my health goals - I am going to make sure that I don't die of a heart attack or something like that and that I am around for long enough for them. They need me to be there for them.
This has lit a fire under my a$$ and I am going to work the hell outta my goals. I feel no desire towards W at this point and I just want to move on. I am going to cancel our chat for this weekend because I just don't care to do anything outside co-parenting and she can just deal with her own issues like I have been dealing with mine.
Dude....so sorry to hear this. I know it is tearing you up. Was he able to share anything with you? Did you speak to your W about what happened at school today? Does she know? You are doing the right things, I know it is awful but be proud of yourself! You're being a great dad! I know you know this just make sure you stay positive to him about his mom.
I didn't want to copy your last post because of the length. I could have written the exact same thing as I have he same feelings regarding my W and how my kids are dealing with this mess. My S13 who is a straight A student, on the national honor society, top of his class is now failing in 1/2 of his classes! Recently we had parent teacher conferecnes, I went this time(something my W complained that I never cared to go) to talk to his teacher to try and figure something out. All of his teachers said he seemed depressed all the time and wasn't participating in class and not turning in his homework and on and on. They all wondered what was going on so I told them, they all showed some compassion for my S13 that they would work with him. I talked to my W about what his teachers said and almost seemed liked she didn't care, I have lost so much respect for her that I don't think I will ever regain any ounce of respect after the D. I'm concerned that her selfishness will only harm my kids. What a mess!
Thanks J. Yeh, he told me exactly what he said to the Principal and I validated his feelings and told him that there's lots of changes and it's okay to feel sad about them, but you should always be able to talk about it and feel that you can tell me anything and that I will always love him no matter what.
We then talked about the incident that happened at school and he wrote an apology letter this morning for the other kid that he wasn't nice to yesterday.
I told W what happened and just laid it out matter of fact, without blaming her for anything. I just told what happened, and that I had a chat with S and he's writing an apology letter. Thanks for the reminder, but yeh, I am not saying anything about W to the kids and making sure that whatever is happening with her and I, it doesn't spill over to the kids. She has to manage her relationship with them and I can't control that. I would only step in if I saw that her actions were harming the kids. I know there's a wide interpretation to that, because the separation is already harming the kids.
Dusty - Thanks for your message. I am sorry to hear about your S13. That's such a sensitive time in a kid's life and to have to deal with these issues is like moving Everest. I am sorry to hear that your W is just shirking her responsibilities and doesn't seem to care. You have to take on the added responsibilities and ensure that you're a lighthouse for the kids. I know it's hard to talk to kids at that age, but I hope you can try and see how you can be there for him even more now. That's what I am trying to do. Just be there and be present always and create a stable fun life for them.
In terms of my meet with W this weekend, I was thinking about just doing it over the phone. But, the more I thought about it, it looks weak and she would interpret that as me not being able to face her. So, I am just going to tell her that we move it to a day when we can go to a neutral place and talk and have someone watch the kids for a couple of hours. I realized that for me telling her face-to-face is a huge leap in terms of how I am learning to handle conflict and hard conversations, and I don't want to hide behind a phone for that. So, I'll see when we can have this chat. I've also figured out what I will talk to her about and that's it.
We have a parent-teacher conference tonight for both kids and I am eager to hear what's going on. I've been in communication with my S's teacher and she knows what's the deal.
Parent-Teacher conference went well. Both kids are doing well in school and their report cards were excellent. The incident with my S was something out of character for him and his teacher is not too worried. He had a great day today and is still best buds with the other kid.
I totally didn't feel on edge with W being there and I guess it's getting easier whenever these meetings happen as I don't see her that frequently now.
After putting the kids in the car I told her that the in person chat for this weekend won't work and we need to reschedule as I don't want kids to overhear anything. She said we can chat over the phone, so I will take her up on the offer and get it out of the way instead of waiting.
All in all, I feel like I am in a better place and hearing from my kids teachers that they're doing well was quite a relief. I know they're impacted but I am going to do all that I can to help them flourish.
So, I am calling my W in a couple of hours for the 'chat'. Just wanted to post a few things and hopefully get some feedback before I call her. I know the board is not as active on the weekends, but I'll post anyway.
I am just reading about the squirrel analogy and it is driving my thinking right now.
What I am going to tell her:
1. How I felt during BD and after, without being blaming or accusatory 2. Me feeling better and 'happier' now is because I took an active step towards my own healing process and started that journey 3. There is no 'us' right now. Right now we are just parents of two children and I have zero issues working with her for their wellbeing, but that is 'her' and 'me' as separate people, not 'us'. 4. I am open to talking about 'us' but for me that has to be in the context of working on the MR.
I am only conflicted about #4 right now. Last we spoke a few days ago, she had said that she doesn't want to do MC because she isn't in a place where she can commit to working on the MR. I am worried that if I say #4, then I am maybe closing the door for some conversations that could happen over time.
The only reason I have #4 is because I don't want to put my heart out and be vulnerable with her without a purpose.
So, I don't know what to do about #4. I certainly don't want to put myself out, but don't want to close the door either. She may not warm up to MC for a while, but maybe she may warm up to working on 'us' - spending quality time together, maybe go on some dates etc. I wonder if I lay it down so concretely, it might shut the door for some gentle moves.
I am going to say my bit and then ask her what she wants to share, and then validate her and just actively listen.
I also fear that if I say that I don't want to have the 'us' conversations without the purpose being working on the MR, that I might be adding pressure.
Anyways, I am keeping what Matrix said - she has to pursue me and want to get me back, not the other way around. I just don't want to shut the door on her.
Maybe I am over thinking this.
Forgot to add - feedback would be appreciated. Thanks
Last edited by Cadet; 11/19/1704:36 PM. Reason: Combine posts
M...on number 4 what if you said something along the lines of that your not sure what you want. If my W came to me and said she wanted to Recon or work on the MR I would tell her that I need time to think and process. I have been so focused on myself that I am not sure what I want at this time.
J.... that's a great suggestion. Rather than being concrete about it, I can keep it open and see what she wants to do. Also, this way she can pursue me and I can see how I feel about it.
Again, I am totally being speculative here about that and no idea whether that will come up or not.
I saw her today at a kid event and she was very friendly and talkative. That kind of got my guard up because I don't know if she's trying to soften me up for some news or if she's being genuinely friendly. In either case, I'll find out from the convo.
I've already brought up MC, so she knows that I would need that if we were to work on 'us'. Aside from that I'll just keep it more open then.
I'll come back and give a full report tonight lol. Just realized that part of me really trying to figure out what to say is coming from me being worried about how she will react. I just need to let go of that and do what is important for me and be steady, calm, and collected.
IMO your willingness to work on it is probably implied. At times my W is friendly and at times she is business like. Who knows whats going on in her head. You have said in the past that she would have to change. My W would as well. Maybe you ask her what her expectations are during this sep period? IF she asks you what would you say? IMO I would try to not paint yourself in a corner. You are focusing on yourself, you realize you have opportunities to grow and you are really focused on yourself and working towards being the best M you can be with or without her. If she presses maybe you tell her what you have learned during this self-evalutation period. Maybe make it more about you than her.
Last time we spoke with the big temp check, she said separation was permanent. All she has ever said is that we have to work on our communications in the context of co-parenting, that's it. I got no problem there and I have been more proactive about it.
Yeah those are all good suggestions. I will use the line 'I need to think about this' if I get stuck lol. I don't want to just say stuff.
My initial expectations were that she would want to work on the MR at some point, but she stated she didn't want to. So, if she turns that question around for me, I will say that I am focused on working on myself and be the person I know I am and want to be.
I am just letting go of the fact that I might say something wrong. I know that I won't blame her, be accusatory, and stay cool and calm. Everything else I already know and I just need to not worry about placating her.
Alright, I am going to grab a glass of wine and then collect myself before I call her. For all late night owls on the board, I will come back and give a report
Haha! So, that was something. I dunno what to make of it.
I basically told her what I planned on saying. I left out the part of what I would want from the R if we were ever to move forward.
She basically responded by apologizing for the BD coming out of nowhere and that she was there as a friend if I needed her.
The convo basically ended itself and there was nothing more to it. So, I have no idea why she wanted to chat in the first place now - maybe give me some airtime to let out my grievances.
I am basically back to DBing as usual and working on myself and my goals. Going to remain NC/dark outside of kids stuff.
I was expecting a long convo, but it was fairly short. She didn't show any real emotion during it and it was very business like. Guess it's done and there's nothing more to it.
No she didn't ask any questions, but she is sending me some text messages now. I don't particularly feel like responding. She's saying the following:
she's telling me I have always been amazing and that I was unhappy. She couldn't figure out how to make me happy. In this she became sad and alone and that we weren't best for each other. She's happy that I am focusing on myself and finding happiness.
She texted me more after that saying that I was always an amazing man and that she hopes my kids turn out like me, but I was also unhappy because I was depressed.
The unhappiness part is true because I was definitely depressed with so many insane things in my life. I was unhappy about certain things in the MR, which were fixable IMHO. I realized I was unhappy about it after the LBS fog was out of the picture.
So, she's wishing me all the best and blah blah blah.. oh well, she's definitely not moved an inch in her position so all of this is just adding more salt to the injury.
Part of me feels like responding and validating that she felt alone and sad because of all of this, but I just don't know if I have it in me right now.
"I am sorry that you felt sad and alone and it led to your depression. I am sorry that my actions contributed towards that. My depression had nothing to do with you and my love for you."
I dont know that I would go that far . Only you know your sitch and your W so do what you think is best!
I assume she knows everything about your life and personal struggles. Does she know how deeply it effected your life? Could you validate her and talk about how after taking a step back you realize how it impacted your every daily living and those around you including you and the kids?
okay I just did that. Not sure if she'll come back with anything but I'll see. Thanks J for being there waiting for my updates patiently.
It just sounds like she's done and doesn't see a way back. I am feeling helpless in that sense. I have no idea if she's seeing anyone either so this makes it harder to gauge what to do.
Feels like this convo was an emotional setback for me. I'll just have to sleep it off and wake up and be my strong self again.
No worries M. My W hasn't changed her mind either so try not to let it bother you. As you know things can change and so can your W. Just continue to work on finding your internal happiness. Also remember this one conversation is not making or breaking your chances at recon in the future. At minimum maybe she helped give you some focus areas for your continued personal development. That is if you agree with her assessment and know it is something you need to change.
I think a major message, which I've been getting from her for a while now in subtle ways, is that she is unable to make me happy. That there is something about her that won't make me happy. Now there are a couple of things I'd want differently in a future R, if it was with her, but she's mentioned that she never felt that she was a 'safe' person for me to talk to and share things with her.
And that she is lacking in a partner that I'd want. Now I have no way of proving to her that I love her for who she is, but we need to work on a few things.
Again, as you said, who knows that the future holds, but I have to just move forward with myself and see what's there for me.
I can't help her see her own value and worth for me and she needs to work on her depression and anger. She needs to understand that she doesn't have to 'create' happiness for me and that I have to do that myself. she can be one of the sources of my happiness but not the entirety of it. And that I can't be that for her either.
So, long journey ahead and I don't know if she's doing anything to help herself in this regard. I just know that I can't convince her of her worth or that I'd want her in my life and that I am willing to work with her. She's pretty much done as it stands and I have to just accept that again and move forward.
Her assessment about me being depressed was true and I am working on that and have come out of it, but she sees herself as part of that problem, which wasn't the case at all. Now I can't convince her of that so I just have to move along in my life and create my happiness. Part of me right now just wants to go out and be a player lol, but I know that ain't the solution to my problems.
W has so much anger still (she admitted it in a conversation a few days ago) and has to deal with her depression, that it reminds me of how this is a marathon and not a sprint.
I just got such a strong urge for my own goals and how I have to just double down on them even more so that I can get past all of this $hit and get to my own place of serenity and happiness.
Her timeline is not my timeline and if she doesn't ever deal with her stuff, I cannot go back into a MR that was the same. So, back to Maika doing his own thang and getting in groovy shape and mental strength.
This just made me realize that I can't have any more of these types of convos with W. Emotional setback tonight, but tomorrow I am pumping some iron and getting back on the horse.
I will start a new thread tomorrow Cadet.... I know you be coming knocking on my door soon
Thanks J for tonight and for everything. I am a bit bummed but will pick it up tomorrow.
My Wife told me she felt as thou she couldnt make me happy as well.
What she was trying to tell me was she didnt feel safe of being herself around me because I was always trying to fix her. She just needed a person to listen to her and since I was trying to fix her, she saw me as always having a problem with her.
On the flip side, when she would identify a problem with me I would get defensive. So in her mind, there was no making me happy. She wasn't good enough.
So I just started listening to her. I shut up and just listening. And then I started validating, I didn't care if I thought she was wrong. Then I started apologizing for all the things I truly did wrong. I identified how I hurt her and what she held resentment towards me and I apologized for those. Her walls came down and then I had a chance to give my perception and my true feelings. The reasons why I was so defensive and the reasons why I though I was helping by providing solutions.
I had to allow her to feel safe aroind me before I had a chance to try and convince her I was safe for he from open up around. I hope that helps.
M:37 W:37 T:11 M:10 S17, S13, S10, S4 BD:06/28/17 OM confirmed 07/20/17 Recon the M 10/29/17 Working hard:2gether
Onward and forward
This process is not a sprint it's a marathon! Patience, Patience, Patience.
W has so much anger still (she admitted it in a conversation a few days ago) and has to deal with her depression, that it reminds me of how this is a marathon and not a sprint.
I would say to just hang in there. If you are ever going to build a R back I think it starts with both of you getting over the anger and frustration first. Once that happens maybe you guys start opening up to each other and you work on building a friendship. Not where you are the erand boy but her starting to open up and engage in more conversation. Then maybe that leads to some innocent flirting, small jokes, stuff like that. I think you have to build the attraction all over again. You looking good, getting in good shape, and since you are not pursuing then maybe it leads to her starting to see you in a different light, you become smokin hot again. Your playing hard to get so that attraction starts to build.
I could be totally off base but I kind of feel this way with my W.
Quote:
Her timeline is not my timeline and if she doesn't ever deal with her stuff, I cannot go back into a MR that was the same. So, back to Maika doing his own thang and getting in groovy shape and mental strength.
Word!
Quote:
This just made me realize that I can't have any more of these types of convos with W. Emotional setback tonight, but tomorrow I am pumping some iron and getting back on the horse.
Thats how you start to build the attraction.....getting jacked, letting go and she will see what she's missing.
Quote:
Thanks J for tonight and for everything. I am a bit bummed but will pick it up tomorrow.
No worries man....I just got out of the gym myself!
Been thinking about it for a couplea yrs now and just getting it done. I know I don't want any more kids and who knows that the future holds in terms of an R, but the last thing I want to worry about is having another kid. 