For folks joining in on the action at this point, quick summary:
W walked out in typical BD fashion and then mixed messages for a few months which gave me difficulties in doing DBing. Had a big chat 2 months ago and she said that separation was permanent. Since then I've been basically NC/Dark aside from being proactive on kid communications. No pursuing or asking questions. Took some time to get my head straight but then completely focused on myself and things are getting better.
Last night had a convo with W, which was fairly short. You can read up on it at the end of my last thread.
Feeling better today and just about to go climbing with the kiddies, which will be a huge mental boost. At this point I am basically done and will not be engaging in those types of convos for the forseeable future. I am just not yet in a place where I feel physically awesome and mentally strong. But, the plan is now again to rededicate everything to myself and just forget about W.
What she was trying to tell me was she didnt feel safe of being herself around me because I was always trying to fix her. She just needed a person to listen to her and since I was trying to fix her, she saw me as always having a problem with her.
On the flip side, when she would identify a problem with me I would get defensive. So in her mind, there was no making me happy. She wasn't good enough.
So I just started listening to her. I shut up and just listening. And then I started validating, I didn't care if I thought she was wrong. Then I started apologizing for all the things I truly did wrong. I identified how I hurt her and what she held resentment towards me and I apologized for those. Her walls came down and then I had a chance to give my perception and my true feelings. The reasons why I was so defensive and the reasons why I though I was helping by providing solutions.
I had to allow her to feel safe aroind me before I had a chance to try and convince her I was safe for he from open up around. I hope that helps.
Thanks Joe for that perspective. I did have that fixer type mentality as well and would rather debate her about stuff than just listen. I have improved dramatically in the listening and validation part and will keep doing that whenever the opportunities arise. Now that we are physically separated and I am NC/Dark, those moments won't happen for a while until she warms up. But, that's okay. I am in no rush as I need the time to figure my own $hit out.
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I would say to just hang in there. If you are ever going to build a R back I think it starts with both of you getting over the anger and frustration first. Once that happens maybe you guys start opening up to each other and you work on building a friendship. Not where you are the erand boy but her starting to open up and engage in more conversation. Then maybe that leads to some innocent flirting, small jokes, stuff like that. I think you have to build the attraction all over again. You looking good, getting in good shape, and since you are not pursuing then maybe it leads to her starting to see you in a different light, you become smokin hot again. Your playing hard to get so that attraction starts to build
You're absolutely right. She is holding on to a lot of anger and frustration and not sure what she's doing to address her depression. There is nothing that can come unless she does something to deal with that. I think the separation is good in that sense that I am out of her face and she needs to just figure out what's going on with her. Yeh, with the innocent flirting and small jokes and stuff, that can happen for sure and I'll see how that goes and keep my expectations zero. There's also no way to turn this ship around if I don't improve myself and get physically, mentally, and emotionally jacked. I have to do that for myself. So, all in all, I think it's good and with all the hurt she's felt over the years, it would've been amazingly optimistic to think that she was coming around after a few months.
So, back on the horse and I feel a sense of relief for some reason. Maybe it is because I don't have to put in work for the MR right now. If she had brought up what the future R could look like, it just sounds draining right now to go through it personally. I just need this time for myself.
Yesterday was a really good day. In hindsight, that convo with W two days ago was pretty unnecessary, but she dipped her toes into R talks and I was able to validate and just listen. Didn't argue with her about anything or blamed her.
I just feel a lot more at peace right now because I can't change the outcome or pace of this at all. As I mentioned, she has issues she needs to grapple with and I hope that she can do that for herself, regardless what happens with our MR. Her feelings about how she can't make me happy are very much rooted in her own self-esteem and self-value. She needs to get to a place to know that she is a valuable person and that she doesn't need validation for that from me or anyone else. She also needs to understand that my depression played a huge part in my actions towards her and that it wasn't a reflection of how I felt about her.
But, I can't communicate that at this point because she is not in a place where she can hear me due to her anger and depression. She has to work it out for herself and only then we can have any hope of reconnecting, if ever. So, knowing that I can't do anything for her at this point has allowed me to reframe my thinking about moving forward.
I'll keep posting as things progress and journal as I see fit, but I don't really anticipate anything happening for a long time. This place has been a refuge and blessing and I am glad I found it in time.
she's telling me I have always been amazing and that I was unhappy. She couldn't figure out how to make me happy. In this she became sad and alone and that we weren't best for each other. She's happy that I am focusing on myself and finding happiness.
Very script-y. I heard almost the exact same stuff from my XW.
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Yesterday was a really good day. In hindsight, that convo with W two days ago was pretty unnecessary, but she dipped her toes into R talks and I was able to validate and just listen.
Doesn't sound like she wanted an R talk so much as a "here's my feeble attempt to explain why we're done" talk.
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Her feelings about how she can't make me happy are very much rooted in her own self-esteem and self-value.
Well, I think when my XW said that stuff to me I thought much the same as you, but looking back later I did realize that while I wasn't depressed in our M I was very, VERY bad at expressing happiness. I could be quite grumpy and I complained a lot, I always saw it as venting but in retrospect it made my XW think I was depressed and unhappy. I really wasn't, but I can certainly see why she thought I was. It's behavior I've done a 180 on for the most part. I vent in the car by myself now, LOL! I don't "dump" on others (especially family) like I used to.
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I'll keep posting as things progress and journal as I see fit, but I don't really anticipate anything happening for a long time.
Probably not in your M, but that doesn't mean you can't talk here about other aspects of your life
Probably not in your M, but that doesn't mean you can't talk here about other aspects of your life
AS is right, you can talk about other stuff here, but don't mention burning rectal itch. I made the mistake of discussing the details of my own experiences with burning rectal itch. It was a disaster. A bunch of posters piled-on and started swinging 2x4s. I'll never do that again.
Doesn't sound like she wanted an R talk so much as a "here's my feeble attempt to explain why we're done" talk.
Yeh it was really strange. I don't know why she wanted to chat. Either way it was pretty straight forward and I know that there's nothing to really talk about at this point in terms of MR.
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Well, I think when my XW said that stuff to me I thought much the same as you, but looking back later I did realize that while I wasn't depressed in our M I was very, VERY bad at expressing happiness.
I was definitely very very bad at expressing happiness and now looking at it from the outside, I must've been pretty unpleasant to be around. I am definitely doing a 180 on that and whatever communications on in-person time that I have with her, I will keep it positive and happy.
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AS is right, you can talk about other stuff here, but don't mention burning rectal itch. I made the mistake of discussing the details of my own experiences with burning rectal itch. It was a disaster. A bunch of posters piled-on and started swinging 2x4s. I'll never do that again
Doodler, 2x4s on your burning rectal itch! Ouchhh!! You must've had to go see a specialist to take all the splinters out
Hope everyone was able to get through the Holidays with some peace.
Nothing serious to report back. Operation NC/Dark still in place with W. At the last phone chat I had told her I didn't have any interest in being her friend.
Nothing to read into here, but she sent me a buncha kid photos over the weekend and suggested a social activity that I would enjoy. That was a bit weird but I didn't respond to the texts because there was nothing to say.
Then the next day she sends me some stuff about issues with the kids to which I responded because my D is having a hard time with some stuff at school. And during that she texted me about what they did over the weekend and what not. I just responded to her about the D stuff and let the other things go. All the non-kid stuff would be convos that you would have with someone you wanted to be 'friends' with, which I have clearly stated is not the position that I want to play.
Anyways, not reading into it, but it was definitely weird. In the real scheme of things, a few texts are not going to turn anything around. But, being NC/Dark has been good for me. 2 months ago her texts would've taken up a lot more mental space than now.
All in all, things are great and I am looking forward to the holidays. Going to figure out some traditions that are just going to be me and the kiddos. They need to have a lot of happiness this season as they been through a lot.
I've been trying to read through your threads. I haven't gotten through all of them yet but its impressive to hear how well you're handling everything. It sounds like you've developed resilience and you're doing a lot to move forward.
There seems to be something about Thanksgiving and the long weekend as I posted about my situation. Perhaps your wife was remembering previous Thanksgiving holidays you had together as a family and missed those times, and reached out as a result. Or maybe she realized being a single mother isn't so fun when there's no one with whom to share those special moments with the kids. Maybe she's testing you to see if you can be friends even though you said no.
I guess how you interpret the texts doesn't matter so much if you're planning to maintain the NC rule. I didn't get through enough of your threads to see if there's any chance at reconciliation in the future. It's good though that you're able to focus on the kids and making the holidays as happy as possible for them. I feel so sorry for all the kids who have to spend the holidays in a broken home for the first time. They deserve extra special care and love.
Thanks Nicole. My journey has been up and down and in the early days of me DBing, I was getting a lot of mixed signals from W, which I didn't know what to make of. So, about 2 months ago I just reached out to her and did a huge temp check. Not exactly DBing, but I needed to have clarity and what she was thinking at that point. After that, I have basically been NC/Dark. She made her position clear and that took me out of my tailspin and trying to control and figure out things. So, it's been a lot more relaxed and positive for me since then. I have no idea what W is thinking or feeling. It's not like I don't care, but I am just indifferent. I know the value I bring to the game and if she's not wanting to join the team, then that's her loss. I am not waiting for her. I am just waiting for me and all my decisions are going to be based on me and how I am feeling. My timeline is really just driven by my goals. Once I reach them and keep maintaining, I will then think about next steps. I am slowly losing all the fear about divorce and life after. I know I am going to be more than fine and my kids will have a stellar dad to hold things down for them and have their back. W can do whatever she wants, it's truly not my concern. I don't pry and I don't ask about anything.
J dawg - yes, I work out Mon, Wed, Fri and go climbing on Mon, Tues, and Sunday. Sunday is with the kids on alternate weekends when I have them. The home gym is awesome and I am so happy to have access to it whenever I want to. If I need to burn or some anxiety or whatever, I can just got bench a few sets and get the endorphins going.
Spent the weekend fixing up the place a bit more and figured out the xmas lights. I have to pick them up tonight and will be putting them on. Going to make this xmas a lot more festive than usual and going to put up the lights in the house and kids rooms. Just brighten up everything for them. We'll go pick out a tree soon, which will be fun.
My boss just came over and gave a nice bottle of scotch for my work this year. So, that was really nice as I have put tons and tons of time on some very important things that were executed beautifully. It's good to get the recognition. Now, time to get a pay raise in 2018, which should be great.
Life is happening and not just sitting idly by. Making moves and taking charge. Truly empowering.
I'm putting this here to avoid hijacking Joseph's thread.
Maika, you keep mentioning how angry you are with your wife because of how the separation is affecting the kids. It's as if you think her decision was selfish.
You have described here how you were controlling and critical of your wife and kids, and how you made her feel like less of a parent because she did things differently than you. Do you understand how living in that environment beats a person down?
Sometimes a person has to put on their own oxygen mask first, before they can help others. Based on what you've shared over the months, I can see why your wife might have felt separation was the only answer, despite your many stellar qualities, and why she is not able to commit to working on the marriage at this time.
I'm not saying this is all your fault, or that she doesn't have her own issues.
This is just what I see on the other side of the monitor. I offer it in the hope that it will help you move past the anger, which is bad for all of you.
Me: 44 H: 44 Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10 Together/Married: 22 years H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16 H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
Yes, you are absolutely correct in what you said and even though I disagree with the separation route, I have come to a place of acceptance that this was the only option that W felt was right at the time. I don't have any anger towards her about how the S impacted me. The only piece of anger left is the impact on my kids, which is something I am working on and time will tell how I can handle it.
I don't have any resentment towards her either. I have made good strides in digging deep about my controlling behavior and IC has helped immensely with that. My relationship with the kids has improved significantly because I have let go of the control and actively managed my emotions and being self-aware. I am not giving a pat on the back to myself, but just that I didn't sweep this under the rug.
I am okay with her not wanting to work on the MR right now just because I know there are issues that W needs to deal with that are outside of me and the MR. Those are 'her' issues. I don't know if she's in a place to tackle them yet, but I sincerely hope she does.
I just know that I am not in a place to be her 'friend'. I am very pro-active with her about co-parenting and the wellbeing of our kids. I am not letting any of the MR issues filter down to parenting the kids. And so far, we have worked well on that. There's room for improvement and we're getting a handle on our communications about it.
It's hard to move past the anger about the impact on the kids when I see it daily how this is affecting them. It's hard to trust in 'time will heal' perspective when things are happening in the 'now' with the kids.
I do feel like crap about some of my faults in the MR, but I have owned up to them and holding myself accountable to it. She hasn't even expressed how she let the MR down, which makes me upset because I don't feel like she's taken ownership of her actions. Maybe she has but has not expressed to me concretely. Where we are at now, that would only make sense if she wanted to work on the MR and we were in MC. But, her expressing it at this point is not going to bring any closure or make me feel better.
Hey folks!! Not much has changed - still NC/Dark and that is going well for me. W hasn't reached out either for anything and she's not been in my head space as much in the past few days.
Kids and I went climbing yesterday and just like always it was a lot of fun. I had another woman checking me out and it wasn't sure if she was a mom or just taking care of a couplea kids. She was very pretty and I exchanged some pleasantries with her as my kids were waiting on the route her kids were climbing. She was gorgeous and if I was in a position where I had 'moved on', I would've definitely struck up a conversation with her.
Anyways, it's nice to feel noticed. I wasn't looking particularly good or anything - didn't get all spiffed up to go climbing - but I guess my confidence and personality is coming out. I was having fun with my kids a lot and I was encouraging them on their climbs and what not.
She was gorgeous and if I was in a position where I had 'moved on', I would've definitely struck up a conversation with her.
I've been reading so many comments like this on the board lately, what is wrong with you guys?? TALK TO THEM! You've got to relearn how to be sexy and flirty and attractive, it is going to serve you well whether you reconcile or not. You want your W to learn to miss you? Well believe me, if she sees you flirting with an attractive woman or hears about it, that is going to create some serious jealousy deep down inside her. Suddenly you're not just Plan B that she can tag in whenever she wants, you are someone other women find attractive that they may actively pursue once they find out you're becoming available.
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but I guess my confidence and personality is coming out.
Haha Thanks AS!!! I will definitely heed your advice and be more social. I know that I am in a place where nothing would happen, but I definitely do need to be able to be sexy and flirtatious and attractive.
Heard you loud and clear! Will as usual come back and report on my adventures.
BTW - your R with your GF sounds frikkin' awesome. Imma be aiming for that and bedroom adventures included.
Had a mixed day. Work was good and then I had a GAL activity planned but I was feeling a bit lazy, but I got myself out of the laziness funk and just went and it was good. So much of GAL and everything right now is just pushing myself for the first 30 seconds and then it's alright.
Missed my kids a lot after the GAL activity. Also really missed the intimacy with W - being physically close; having the familiar smell of her skin; just nuzzling up with her etc. Just missed that familiarity and connection a lot this evening.
Made me also feel a bit sad thinking about whether she misses the same things from me right now. My guess is probably not because she's so angry at me and probably can't really stand being around me for too long without negative thoughts coming back. Also started thinking about if she's getting her needs met by someone else and that just made me a bit mad.
So, just a weird day in general. Came home and made myself a good dinner and listened to a podcast while having dinner.
I know I will have such days and I missed her a lot today. Maybe just missed having that close connection and the intimacy.
Hey M sorry you are struggling today. My D;s and I decorated our Christmas tree tonight and I was a little down as this was the first time this happened without my W. I think your feelings are normal as I miss some of the things about my W was well, our family unit being together and just being connected. I am sure she has had the same thoughts and I am sure she is going through her own struggles.
That sounds normal to miss those things. You can be active and busy all day long but it can't totally replace what was lost. Hopefully though you'll either reconcile with your wife someday or meet someone new so this is just a temporary break from having a close physical connection with someone you love.
I expect to have days like that. Nicole - your comment about GAL not as a replacement for what is lost really hit home. It's good to think of this as a temporary break from that type of connection. I know that I am in no place right now to seek out that kind of connection with someone else, but in time I will be.
Joe & Joseph - Yeh, I think this time of the year especially can hit hard due to the holidays and the focus being the family. Just thinking about how this will be the new normal for a while or permanently is pretty hurtful. I know that time and patience will bring peace and acceptance, but the first 12 months with everything being different is the tough one.
On the positive side, I did pick up all the lights last night and was too drained from GAL to put them up, but that is the plan tonight. I am looking forward to that.
I know I've lost some weight and I also picked up a scale to see the progress and I've lost 10 pounds. woo hoo!!! I don't have too much to lose but I'd like to lose another 10 pounds and that should put me in good shape. Ab outlines are already happening and so the motivation is there and I have been very good with my food and meds lately. My blood sugar readings for the last week have consistently been in the normal range - this is a combination of eating well, taking meds, and working out. I know that I want to keep it up and soon just from doing these lifestyle changes, I will be able to get off my meds. I have my doc appointment in three months and I want to show off to her what I have accomplished
I get to see my kids today and I am so excited and pumped. I also decided to pick up learning Spanish/Flamenco guitar and Wood-working in 2018. I get impulsive and wanted to go and do it right away, but one of my goals has been to not act on impulse and take my time. I am still working on being consistent with the goals I set out and once I have that down, I will then pick those two things up.
I am looking forward to 2018 and starting the year with a new fresh mindset and outlook on life.
In my mind I could justify Thanksgiving because it is just 1 day and it is spent with extended family. I am finding Christmas more difficult because we always spent it together, at home, as an immediate family. Not only the day with presents, etc. but also the build up. The family decorating the tree, taking the kids to see Santa, we went on a Polar Express ride one year, we always made Gingerbread houses together as well, things like.
Then I start to wonder what my girls are thinking. For example, next week they are with their mom in the apartment with no tree, no elf and I wonder if they will not experience the excitement of Christmas. I know I am probably projecting but I think about these things.
Yeah I totally see the difference between Thanksgiving and Xmas. So much more is involved in the latter as there is all this time spent doing so many things building up to Xmas eve and Xmas day. I am sure the girls will notice the difference.
Even though you're doing everything in your house to keep it festive and everything, your W has to hold up her end as well if she's concerned about how the kids will feel about this time of the year.
The city I live in has a big park downtown and they light the trees and there is a special evening when there is a band and they turn on all the lights. Previously it was a family activity, but I took the kids by myself this year and it was a lot of fun. It feels like the kids have accepted this reality where they are with one of us and not both of us. But, it would've been so much fun if we had done that as a family unit like in the past.
But as I see it right now, we are not a family. I am a single parent basically and I do everything to make sure that kids are taken care of when they're with me. I wish it wasn't like that, but we all know that we have to step it up and be the stable rock and lighthouse for the kids.
That's cool about the park...we went to a tree lighting thing at Church last Sunday. Going to the local Christmas parade this Friday night. Taking the girls with some other friends so we will stand along the parade route and enjoy some adult beverages.
Yes, W has to hold up her end and it is not my responsibility to ensure she does. I imagine deep down inside our girls know the difference between their home and mom's apartment. Either way it is my W's cross to bare.
One of the things that I am working on is being self-aware of my feelings and not shutting them out, but processing them and doing something constructive with it.
I am a bit all over the map with my emotions lately.
I feel a lot of disgust and some anger towards W today. I have no doubt she had an EA with this guy (I don't know if she has recognized that), which truly began before BD. After BD, one day she came and told me he made a move on her and kissed her, but she pushed him away and was all messed up about what happened. She said she cut him out her life, which I don't fully believe.
Anyways, what's been bothering me is that she put herself in a situation where something like that could've happened. Whether she was naieve about what was going on or didn't want to acknowledge she was doing something inappropriate. She came back that evening and told me that he had made a move on her and she rebuffed him, but wouldn't tell me anything else. This was pre-DB days for me and I didn't handle it the way I would do now.
When all of this happened she has lied to me and not given me the truth and just been deceiving. It's just so much bloody disrespect towards me. Throughout the whole MR, I never even glanced at another woman and made sure I never put myself in a position where something inappropriate, however small, could happen. And here she goes and does this and then goes out on at least one date with someone else. I am sure there were more but I don't know about it and I never really did snoop when we were under the same roof.
Basically at this point, I feel like I don't know this woman at all any more. I have no desire to see her or spend any time with her. Not because I would pursue or engage in R talks or not DB well, but I just don't feel like being around her. She truly feels like a stranger to me.
So, we have kids stuff as all parents do. Some of it is unavoidable like school events, but then there are some extracurricular stuff on the weekends which would be the only time I would have to see her.
My issue right now is that I don't feel like going to them when I don't have the kids during that particular weekend. I don't care to chit chat with her or even see her. I know these interactions are opportunities to show them who you are now and have no expectations.
I do love the fact that I can see the kids briefly when they're not with me during such events, but I just don't want to see her.
I am not trying to make a hard decision whether or not to go to the kids events because she's there, I just feel kinda drained and fed up and I couldn't care less what she's doing at this point. I just want to spend time with what I want to do and focus on me.
I know that I have to be the strong one, the cool one etc etc in such interactions, and do it for the kids and everything, but I just feel kinda beat up right now and I don't want her in my life in any capacity at this point.
I have zero trust in her; I don't believe anything she says; and I am losing my attraction towards her.
Just putting my thoughts and emotions down. I know I've been swinging all over the place, but this helps me process it and put it down on paper, so as to speak.
I shed a few tears because it's so hard to believe a guy like you exists out there - one that would never glance at another woman or be in a situation where something could happen. My husband has done such terrible things that it's hard to imagine having a faithful partner. You are truly a noble and respectable person!
Your kids are still young and if you don't show up at their weekend events for a few months, or however long, I doubt they'll remember that when they grow up. It seems right now you should take care of yourself and avoid seeing your wife. You can always resume attending *all* of their events when you're feeling better and less affected by the bad stuff your wife has done.
My issue right now is that I don't feel like going to them when I don't have the kids during that particular weekend. I don't care to chit chat with her or even see her. I know these interactions are opportunities to show them who you are now and have no expectations.
It's tough and I can understand how you feel. There's up and down days. Having been at this for awhile, I can say the ups and downs are not as steep as they once were.
It's nice to go to the kids events, but missing a few is probably not a big deal and nothing that would effect your long-term relationship with them.
Yeh, when the kids are with me we truly do a lot of stuff and spend a lot of quality time together. We have tons of activities we do and I know that I am not slacking as a parent.
The ups and downs are not so cutting and raw any more, more like a deep ache that will go away. I think that I am just at a point where I don't care whether or not the MR will be saved. The major driver for this is that I know that my W and the person she is now, is not the person I married. If she would ever make a move towards recon, I would have to get to know her all over again, which I am not sure I have the capacity to do.
I have let her go and she will have to reckon with what she has done. I'd rather at this point just get to my own personal goals and then poke my head out to see what's there.
Divorce is no longer something I am afraid of or see as a failure on my part. I just want to be happy and have someone who loves me for who I am. I have taken my failures in the MR into account and know what I have to do to improve myself as a person. But, I also know the game I bring and I know it's top notch - as a partner and as a parent.
So, no interest being with someone who doesn't want to be with me. I know my worth and I know what I'd want in a R. I will go find that woman when the time comes and I am ready to take the plunge.
Also really missed the intimacy with W - being physically close; having the familiar smell of her skin; just nuzzling up with her etc.
You'll have all that again. Might be with your W, might be with someone else. It'll happen though, so be hopeful! And it might be even better than before
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Made me also feel a bit sad thinking about whether she misses the same things from me right now. My guess is probably not because she's so angry at me and probably can't really stand being around me for too long without negative thoughts coming back.
Hard to say. She probably does miss those things but her WAS urges are overriding that right now.
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Also started thinking about if she's getting her needs met by someone else and that just made me a bit mad.
She's lost and confused right now. Even if she's trying to get her emotional needs met elsewhere, it's probably not working. A lot of times we feel mad at them when we should feel sorry for them.
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I know I've lost some weight and I also picked up a scale to see the progress and I've lost 10 pounds. woo hoo!!! I don't have too much to lose but I'd like to lose another 10 pounds and that should put me in good shape. Ab outlines are already happening and so the motivation is there and I have been very good with my food and meds lately. My blood sugar readings for the last week have consistently been in the normal range - this is a combination of eating well, taking meds, and working out. I know that I want to keep it up and soon just from doing these lifestyle changes, I will be able to get off my meds. I have my doc appointment in three months and I want to show off to her what I have accomplished
Awesome, that's great! If you're actively trying to lose weight then try not to drop more than 2 pounds a week, if you lose more than that you lose muscle mass as well as fat.
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I get to see my kids today and I am so excited and pumped. I also decided to pick up learning Spanish/Flamenco guitar and Wood-working in 2018.
Thanks AS! I look at what you share about your current life and it gives me great hope and strength to take my life by the horns and make it what I want it to be. You sound happy and content with your life and your R with your GF sounds healthy and full of life.
Yeah I am not trying to lose weight drastically. I don't have much to lose so I'd have to starve myself to get the 10 other pounds off lol. The weight loss is a combination of me getting physically active and changing my diet to improve my blood sugars and bring it under control.
W is definitely in her own world and I don't know what that's like or what she's going through. I am just trying to do the best for me right now.
Oh man! Thank you for posting that. I feel like I am reading my sitch, minus having a new baby just after BD.
You got it so right about what I want to say to my W - What the F%(K are you thinking???? Instead I am trying to pull back and give her tons of space and stay friendly, but not be her friend.
I have the similar issue about anger - how it's impacted the kids and will impact them for their life. I didn't sign up to be a part-time parent and the fact that I don't know what's going on for half their life is something I am having a hard time accepting. I know they miss me when they're with her and vice versa.
The 180s and the other DB techniques are good in the sense that they allow the LBS to discover themselves and not look weak and pathetic in front of the WW. But, you don't always know if they are working and when you're NC, it's even harder to gauge. But, the opposite of NC also doesn't work and so you're left between a boulder and a sledgehammer.
I think the only thing that I have come to realize is that I need to be my authentic self and figure out my depression issues. I have zero idea or hope that anything I do will bring her back to even try and recon - not saying if recon would restore the MR, which is a whole another ballgame. She hasn't even shown up for practice, forget the game, so it's pointless to worry about if we'll be able to rush the last five yards with seconds away from the game whistle.
I guess I am still bitter about the fact that I wasn't even given a chance. Everything I had suggested after BD was rejected and I feel like I was just discarded and disposed of.
And like you I don't think there is an OM, yet. I believe there was some EA stuff in the beginning before and around BD, but didn't last. I have no idea if there is someone in her life or not and I have no way of getting intel on that short of hiring a PI - which I am not going to waste money on.
I am sorry to hear that your W is still resolute in her decision. My W also suggested counseling for improving communications which reeked of 'divorce management' and so I didn't take her up on that offer.
How is dating life? You're 20 months out and do you feel like you're in a place where you can do it? Also, have you or her filed for D?
Thanks again for your post. I felt really sad reading it and I could totally feel all your emotions as you described them.
Thought I better move your reply to my post over to your thread so we don't clutter the thread of Chris73 and accelerate the intervention of Cadet to start a new thread (which I believe most on here secretly hate doing because it means no R yet)!
Thanks to you as well Maika, I have followed you closely because of your sitch and the similarities to mine...in particular the WAW, i.e. no infidelity at BD, which I believe makes us different and luckier I suppose (if you can call it that) than others for one main reason -- if you are satisfied that your ex is still single (or have no reason to believe she is seeing someone), then extending yourself more than what is recommended here doesn't leave you looking too pathetic in my view. Plus, although you may not recognize the current version of your wife, you still do know her best, at least for the first year or so after BD and maybe longer if you believe she is still kinda the same girl she was when together. Your temperature check a couple months ago was humbling to be sure, but it was partly because of the mixed signals your wife was sending and really, if you don't send out a feeler every now and again, how are you to know if she might be warming to you (because as we both know, she isn't likely to take that first step because another big difference between the WAS and WW is that the WAW feels justified in her decision as opposed to the guilt the WW must feel if there was an OM as BD...that is, she isn't likely to come back with true remorse and humble in the same way that Sandi2 says will happen with the WW, she will come back because she wants to put her family together again and thinks it may be worth another try, but NOT because she feels she wasn't justified in leaving. So your big temperature check may have been a shot to the ego but at least your wife knows you still care and so long as there is not an OM, you aren't Plan B, but probably (optimistically), Plan Not Yet.
My "dating" is just that at this point, dates. Nothing too serious and certainly not close to introducing anyone to the kids. And the reality is, I'm not too enthused about the women I meet, I find myself wondering how my kids will like her and compare her against the ex-wife. So I guess the answer to your question is 'no' but it's still nice to have dinner with someone or take in a movie. My indifference probably shows though because at least two women have asked if I thought I would be getting back together with my ex (it's funny, I think with small children everyone just assumes that eventuality...not so funny living it though because we know it's far from a certainty and probably better categorized as unlikely).
Having 50/50 custody is huge, which I have. Although it's tough to achieve any continuity with the kids, you just know that if you feel frustrated with having to send them off every 2 or 3 days, she feels that much more frustrated because she is responsible for the situation and has to know, at least early on, that she could have fixed it (I know, I know...she would tell her friends and family that we are responsible for the situation by our conduct during the relationship, but ultimately it does fall on the WAW especially where, as with your W and mine, they resist making any effort at every turn since BD).
It's amazing to me that ego and stubbornness can have such influence over these situations. Again, especially where no OM, at least part of the resistance has to be to avoid looking weak to family and friends, not appearing indecisive or unable to "make it" on her own. One would think the bigger picture would prevail because people just naturally forget and move on and are consumed with their own lives and problems, so if both sides are prepared to swallow just a little pride, you could put the family back together and hopefully keep it that way with the work you learned that needs to be done. Boggles the mind.
No D here, we were never married and that was a big issue for her, she raised it on BD and said she promised she never would, but did anyway. I think it plays a much bigger part than she is prepared to admit but obviously can't say that because then it becomes about her not getting a ring as the reason her family is no longer together. That doesn't sound as good as her other reasons. Don't get me wrong, her other reasons were valid concerns, but certainly nothing commensurate to what we are now dealing with...but as I said in my original post, once you get too far down this road, turning back becomes more difficult I think (even though DB preaches patience, at some point, you have to put yourself out there and make one last effort before it's too late...if only to satisfy yourself that you did what you could but for whatever reason(s), the universe had other plans.
Before this relationship (my current sitch), I use to date a women that was divorced with children and her ex-H wasn't by all accounts a very nice guy, cheated on her a few times and with a bad temper (he was a fighter pilot in the US Air Force, she would say he was a narcissist). Anyway, we still keep in touch and I just returned from the US of A and we got together, had dinner, and it was interesting to hear her perspective on my sitch. She said take it from me, keep fighting for your family, she said she wished she had fought harder knowing now what she didn't know back then when she left him. And while my relationship may not have been perfect and needed work, from what she told me when we were dating, it was much better than her marriage...and she still has regrets. The other thing she said that I found secretly comforting is that she found the market for single moms in their late 30's and early 40's pretty bleak, i.e. all the good men are married she said (and she is a very attractive women, now 45 and single again, she got remarried after we broke up but it only last about 5 years, she called their blended family an "epic failure").
That your new spouse doesn't feel the same way about your children is palpable and begins to strain the relationship.
Thanks again for responding Maika, now go ask your wife out to dinner...jk.
I am wondering if I should change my approach with her. Not with the aim of seeing if it leads to recon or anything, but just in generally to show her that I am a different person.
She predicted that I was going to remain angry with her and cut her out of my life - which is how I have survived in the past when close people have betrayed me. Unfortunately, that has happened and led me to built survival skills for emotional protection.
I don't get to see her often and I don't want to manufacture excuses where she sees me, but I think that if I can show her that I am not doing what she predicted, it might make her take a step back in her thinking. Also, I don't know how healthy it is for me to hold on to the anger and bitterness. I just need to find productive ways to let it go.
About not doing family events, I am completely with you on it. Even though it is about making the WAW feel loss of family time, as you mentioned in Chris's thread, it can come across as punitive in some ways. My kids bdays are coming up and we haven't discussed it yet. I am planning on doing something with them just with me, but I wonder if I should bring up doing something together. At this point, it would at least be for the sake of the kids and I know they would prefer that. I can swallow my pride and not wanting to do family time for their sakes and see how it goes.
I guess what I am asking you is if you would do some of these things differently now that you're 20 months out. Not saying if it would have changed anything in the sitch or made your W think differently, but if is the higher road to take here.
Part of me does want to punish her, no doubt. But, as you said, if I swallow some of my pride and anger, I wonder if it could lead to thawing of everything and allow her to see me in my new authentic self. This is all with zero expectations obviously.
This is such a minefield and in the case where there is no OM, I wonder if the LBS swallowing their pride first is the more prudent move to make.
if you don't send out a feeler every now and again, how are you to know if she might be warming to you (because as we both know, she isn't likely to take that first step because another big difference between the WAS and WW is that the WAW feels justified in her decision as opposed to the guilt the WW must feel if there was an OM as BD...that is, she isn't likely to come back with true remorse and humble in the same way that Sandi2 says will happen with the WW, she will come back because she wants to put her family together again and thinks it may be worth another try, but NOT because she feels she wasn't justified in leaving
Slater I could totally see this being my W. I have no proof of OM but I firmly believe she has flirted and potentially maybe a fling but not a serious partner. Knowing my W I couldn't see her showing and remorse because she feels justified in her actions. Looking back she was unhappy with everything in her life, the kids, the dogs, me, the house....IMO she felt like a rat in a cage.
So M what are your plans for the holidays? Are you doing something together as a family or will you be extending an invitation to your W to come together as a family?
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It's amazing to me that ego and stubbornness can have such influence over these situations. Again, especially where no OM, at least part of the resistance has to be to avoid looking weak to family and friends, not appearing indecisive or unable to "make it" on her own.
I don't think my W would jump off the boat even if it was the Titanic. Get D or die trying is her motto. I think it is even more of a long shot with all of her friends that are her enablers. It is like this circle of D, unhappy, middle aged ladies who go out partying at these middle aged bars and listen to 80's cover bands.
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The other thing she said that I found secretly comforting is that she found the market for single moms in their late 30's and early 40's pretty bleak, i.e. all the good men are married she said (and she is a very attractive women, now 45 and single again, she got remarried after we broke up but it only last about 5 years, she called their blended family an "epic failure").
I do think my W is in for a very rude awakening. I am not Brad Pitt but I am not chopped liver either. On the other hand though, being the father of 2 young girls, it scares the $hit out of me because I have no choice but to place total trust in her that she will not put them in a situation to be harmed. That if/when she meets someone else that she will take the necessary steps to ensure their safety.
My W does come from a family that has a history of sexual abuse. So I know everyone would say give her some credit, she wouldn't do that or that is your anger talking I do know that the history is real and the cycle hard to break.
My W's mom was sexual abused by her father and my W's step-father hid in her closest when she was in high school and tried to watch her undress. She also thinks he touched her in a swimming pool as well. My W's real dad is by all accounts a good guy but my W's mom and him got D around the same age as our children. So the pattern exists I just hope history doesn't repeat itself and my W is more self-aware.
Knowing my W I couldn't see her showing and remorse because she feels justified in her actions. Looking back she was unhappy with everything in her life, the kids, the dogs, me, the house....IMO she felt like a rat in a cage.
Yeah I don't see my W ever showing remorse. I know she feels guilt about how this is impacting the kids, but I am sure she feels justified in her actions. J - does your W have anger towards you?
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So M what are your plans for the holidays? Are you doing something together as a family or will you be extending an invitation to your W to come together as a family?
We haven't discussed any plans yet. I know cutting things close to the wire. I am leaning towards doing things together. I know that she would accept that. I am wondering if it's better to engage her in 'friendly' situations and show her that I am not angry at her any more. I know it's subsided and it's still there down there doing a slow simmer, but it isn't going to come up any time soon. She's also always on edge when I am with her and I need to change that dynamic up, not for the hopes of recon, but we will run into each other for kids stuff all the time and I'd just like it to be chill.
I also just need to do a 180 on my survival approach where I used to cut people out of my life. It's just not the most productive way to deal with conflict. Personal growth right
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I do think my W is in for a very rude awakening. I am not Brad Pitt but I am not chopped liver either.
I am with you on this one and what Slater said about the slim pickings out there for moms with kids. But it totally depends on what they want - are they just looking around to get laid? If so, you know there's tons of men who would willingly oblige. But if she's looking for a R, then that's a helluva different ballgame. But if the realization that the field is pretty empty for her comes after 5 years or longer, I know that I would've definitely moved on by then and chances for recon from my end would be non-existent.
I get she's at a place where she can't work on the MR, but the flip side is that the longer she waits to come to a decision, that time works against her as I will have drifted away from her. So, that sweet spot where both parties might want to work on the MR becomes significantly tiny.
Sorry to hear about the sexual abuse history in your W's family J. That is one thing that terrifies me as well. I am sure she has good sense and would take necessary steps for their safety, but I do worry about the kids.
Before BD and early on, yes She had anger and contempt towards me. It seemed to me that she had her ego pumped up so much that she thought I was beneath her. I don't feel that way any more. To me it appears she has lost some of that fire.....we don't engage in R talk so I don't know 100% but I don't see it in her eyes when she looks at me. Maybe it has something to do with me loosing 15 lbs and getting jacked over the last 6 months .
One thing I have learned is that you have to change/up your sex rank. I think that goes hand in hand with your confidence and appearance. If your W has a higher sex rank than you or a perceived higher sex rank then there can be problems.
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We haven't discussed any plans yet. I know cutting things close to the wire. I am leaning towards doing things together. I know that she would accept that.
L and G pushed me towards extending an invitation to my W and I am glad I did so. Maybe this could be away you let her know that your still around???
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I also just need to do a 180 on my survival approach where I used to cut people out of my life. It's just not the most productive way to deal with conflict. Personal growth right smile
My W is that way....it is very easy for her to cut people off at the knee caps. It can be a good and bad quality for sure
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So, that sweet spot where both parties might want to work on the MR becomes significantly tiny.
I have struggled with this. Currently I feel it is like a Mexican standoff with neither party wanting to flinch. My W is stubborn as hell but when we were together many times I could give her a hug or we would just have sex and she was able to release whatever was inside. She was like a balloon, all filled up with air but didn't know how to release it and eventually she would when she was ready to let it go. Some times I wonder if that is what she needs now.
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Sorry to hear about the sexual abuse history in your W's family J. That is one thing that terrifies me as well. I am sure she has good sense and would take necessary steps for their safety, but I do worry about the kids.
Thanks....it is what it is and to my W's credit she is not nearly as messed up as her mom. I just pray that if it comes to D and other men that she won't put our D's in a bad spot.
M.....I would say the other thing I struggle with is not breaking rank. Have you ever seen those war videos from Nazi Germany were all the soldiers are marching in exact cadence, no smiles on their face all marching in the same fashion? That's how I feel some times, like the fight is within to not break rank. Resisting the temptation after 5 months of no R talks to give in and say WTF. What is going here? What are we doing? Let's get this over with, you have had almost 7 months make a fuching decision. Resisting those temptations is hard some times.
Then I come back to everything I have learned, about being a model DBer thinking about those people going through the same struggles, those who are active posters and those reading who never post. Thinking I can't let them down or let myself down. There was this movie with Edward Norton where he would have a split personality and talk to himself so I think about it and give myself motivational speech's. Get a hold of yourself! Don't you break you fuching pussy! Lock it in, crap like that. Don't be weak, your better than that!
So for me the struggle is to stay the course. To be that person that 20 years from now people can reference. Go read J9 and follow his path. Then I come back to the love I have for my W. Is this the ultimate sign of love? Through better or worse until death do we part. About a week before she moved out I was lying in bed and she came in, laid her head on my chest and told me that what made this so difficult was because she knew that I would love her for the rest of her life. So if I pull the plug would I be letting her, myself and our whole family down in the process. Is it my duty to weather the storm, is this my purpose to fight on or do I give in and wave the white flag.
Currently I feel it is like a Mexican standoff with neither party wanting to flinch.
I feel you on this one big time. I believe my W is petrified of making any moves because she is unsure how I would react to it. Since I told her I ain't her buddy, she's basically respected NC from me and only contacted me when it was kid related. She has also said in the past that she would never bring anything up and I believe her on that.
So, in terms of what Slater said about fighting for your MR, I feel that I will have to take the higher road but work really hard to keep my emotions and expectations in check. I won't bring up R stuff, but if I can squeeze in some friendly interactions slowly over time, it might thaw the situation out and let her know that I am not on edge around her and she can maybe start to relax and not have anxiety about interacting with me.
I will have to gauge it obviously and see how to go about it. I wish I was just in this really detached place with a shield around my heart that I could just do this and not have to worry about it. But I know I am not and with every day that goes by, it feels like everything is slipping away and I am not actually fighting for the MR. I dunno. I am not going to start making up stuff to interact with her, but small things here and there. I have zero doubt that she feels that I am super angry with her, that I hate her guts, and that I don't ever want to see her face - there is some truth to that, but I still have a lot of love for her and would want to work on things with her.
I guess what I am saying is that I need to show her that the path is safe to me. It is not riddled with anger and hate.
I guess what I am saying is that I need to show her that the path is safe to me. It is not riddled with anger and hate.
To me all of this about taking the high road, being stoic, resolute, diplomatic but firm. I also think you can be this way but still show her a path back. I still don't initiate conversation but when she does I am a little more interactive, if it is informational I now respond with a TY vs nothing at all, when we are together I will initiate a little general conversation, I try to be warm and happy. When she is talking to me I find her leaning into conversations at times and I will do the same.
I guess my point is that I was pretty dark, NC (really dim) early on for maybe the first 3 months but then I started to loosen up some. Obviously if there is a confirmed OM the approach would be much different.
There is seriously no easy way around all of this. I get about not breaking rank, but you seem to have had a frequency of interactions with W over the past 7 months and it seems that she's progressively started to thaw and chill. From where I see it, she's had a hard time deciding about Xmas, let alone coming to a place where she feels certain about the MR. The temptations are a killer I know - this is what led me to my temp check, but one thing I learned from it is that I won't ever do it again because it sounded so definitive.
If she has time to think about it, maybe her perspective will change. I think that creating that safe path is probably the best advice I can think of - but it's a beast as well because you have to be vigilant about your detachment and continue DBing.
You've been a model DBer no doubt and I would say you don't have anything to prove to anyone here. Whether or not you stay the course is not a marker of what you have done for yourself.
Yeah I think pulling the plug is a hard decision and I feel like the good fight needs to be fought until there is no stamina left. I don't think it would be an indication of you letting your family and daughters down - you can only do so much and if it's crickets from the other party, then you have to control on what you can, which is yourself.
I also give myself the pep talks like Ed Norton, but at some point something's gotta give. I would just hang in a bit longer and not give up out of desperation. At some point, I feel like I am just so beat down by this and I just want it to end and feel better. But I know that if I pull the plug, it may give me temporary relief, but it's not going to solve anything for me. As we've talked about, pulling the plug has to come from a place of strength and after you've just tried everything you could to salvage the MR - and I mean DB style, not pursuing and all of that.
I still have a lot of this tenderness towards her and I wonder if she's got some left. I know she's clouded by anger right now and I have to let her walk that journey and let it pass. Only after that maybe I have a shot. But in the time she's working on her anger, I need to show her that she still has a path and I haven't shunned her. Again, not waiting for her, but not rejecting her yet.
Resisting the temptation after 5 months of no R talks to give in and say WTF. What is going here? What are we doing? Let's get this over with, you have had almost 7 months make a fuching decision. Resisting those temptations is hard some times.
J, There is nothing wrong with doing this as long as you a ready for the answer you may not want to hear and you are ready to move on.
To me all of this about taking the high road, being stoic, resolute, diplomatic but firm. I also think you can be this way but still show her a path back. I still don't initiate conversation but when she does I am a little more interactive, if it is informational I now respond with a TY vs nothing at all, when we are together I will initiate a little general conversation, I try to be warm and happy. When she is talking to me I find her leaning into conversations at times and I will do the same.
Yeah I need to warm up a little and just change it up. I think it will be good for my own personal growth as this is not the kind of behavior I usually engage in. Gotta stop cutting people off at the knees and walking away lol.
I get about not breaking rank, but you seem to have had a frequency of interactions with W over the past 7 months and it seems that she's progressively started to thaw and chill. From where I see it, she's had a hard time deciding about Xmas, let alone coming to a place where she feels certain about the MR.
Yes, seems to be starting to thaw and chill. What that means I have no idea.
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I don't think it would be an indication of you letting your family and daughters down - you can only do so much and if it's crickets from the other party, then you have to control on what you can, which is yourself.
TBH the past 6 months has went by pretty fast. So if the rule is 1 mth for year of MR then I potentially have another 9 months to go before there is a possibility. When I really think about it you either pull the plug early or make the decision your in for the long haul. Why pull the plug after 6 months? Have you really accomplished anything?
I see you point LH, but doesn't something like that just put a reset button on all the work that you've put in. I felt like I had to start from scratch when I did that and it sucked big time.
Why pull the plug after 6 months? Have you really accomplished anything?
I agree with that completely. Not enough time for the LBS to have worked on making lasting changes as well. Pulling the plug early just feels like one has run out of patience. I just don't want to do it until I am super confident that no stone was left unturned from my end.
I see you point LH, but doesn't something like that just put a reset button on all the work that you've put in.
No. Doesn't change the work you put in. IMO if J feels that 7 months of giving her space with no pressure is long enough for her to figure out what she wants (which I agree with him)then he can call her on it.
There is a risk that the longer this goes on the more she gets comfortable living single and as the saying goes about the monkey grabbing the next branch before letting go of the first branch.
I think something is going to happen 1 way or another over the holidays. I would also think that she would have some thoughts 1 way or another in the back of her mind of what she wanted at this point. Would another 6 months or so really make the difference? I thought about waiting until the Spring as that is when her lease would be up and obviously she would need to decide to renew for another year or not.
Yeh I think we're touching on the same points in some way. I guess when I did the temp check with my W, it was way too early and what I got back from her was not what I wanted to hear. In my case at least, I will have to wait for a few more months before I feel like it's time to do that again.
So the timeline for J to bring this up makes sense. The difference is having this convo vs. pulling the plug, the latter which I think would require more time.
But, sounds like you're going to get something after the holidays J - with the mediation text and the stuff your friends told you recently.
W had told me she thought MC was going to be a waste of time and money as she has a lot of anger and didn't think the MC would help restore the marriage considering what she's feeling. So, my only option is to let her run it out and then see - but this can't go on for indefinitely, and the game changes if there is a confirmed OM.
Paging Sandi here!!! Just read something you wrote on a different thread and I have a question.
My W has told me she has a lot of anger towards me and doesn't think going to MC will help as she is too angry to work on the marriage. I agree with that as I don't want to go to MC unless there is commitment to work on the MR.
My question is - what are some things that I can do in this time when she's dealing with her anger. Some of it is justifiably directed at me, but a lot of it's not. Is there any way I can help thaw it out?
Thanks Sandi. I wish there was a way to actually send you a message but I hope that you will come by my thread by some magic and help me with this one.
Thanks AS! I look at what you share about your current life and it gives me great hope and strength to take my life by the horns and make it what I want it to be. You sound happy and content with your life and your R with your GF sounds healthy and full of life.
Just to give 100% disclosure here, everything is fantastic but I do struggle with making the R permanent. My GF is awesome, she is full of energy and thinks I hung the moon and I do love her a lot. Despite the age difference we have a lot of shared interests and we have a blast doing them. I'm an extrovert and love attention anyway, so the age difference is actually amusing to me, I love to see people's reactions when we're out together. Anyway all of that is great but after having been BD'd and gone through S and D, it is really hard to lower those walls again. REALLY hard. I keep her at arm's length and insulate myself from the risk of another BD. That's not fair to her, but we've talked about it and at least so far she's been accepting. I keep thinking that maybe we just need more time but we've been together almost 3 years!! So yeah, the effects of a broken M don't go away quickly or easily!
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Yeah I am not trying to lose weight drastically. I don't have much to lose so I'd have to starve myself to get the 10 other pounds off lol. The weight loss is a combination of me getting physically active and changing my diet to improve my blood sugars and bring it under control.
Excellent! Congrats on your weight loss! I got a little soft around the middle around Thanksgiving so I've been cutting too. Have lost 5 pounds since then. Another 5 and I'll be down to around 12% bodyfat, so that's my target. I was there about a year ago and really liked how I looked, was getting compliments from men as well as women Then my scale broke and ignorance was bliss, hahahaha!
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I am wondering if I should change my approach with her. Not with the aim of seeing if it leads to recon or anything, but just in generally to show her that I am a different person.
She predicted that I was going to remain angry with her and cut her out of my life - which is how I have survived in the past when close people have betrayed me. Unfortunately, that has happened and led me to built survival skills for emotional protection.
Well you know we always say you can't "nice" her back, but I firmly believe you have even less of a chance to "mean" her back, LOL! I think you've got to strike a balance. You don't want to fawn all over her and be Plan B, but you definitely don't want to be cold/ indifferent/ uncaring either. Friendly neighbor is the best approach I think. Benito was/ is a master at it and it really paid off in his sitch.
Just to give 100% disclosure here, everything is fantastic but I do struggle with making the R permanent
That's understandable. Just thinking about a new R and making it permanent looks like horror movie to me right now. I was just commenting on you finding contentment after the abyss. That's definitely something to aspire for.
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Then my scale broke and ignorance was bliss, hahahaha!
LOL! That's precisely why I just bought a new scale because I knew I had lost weight, just didn't know how much. The old scale got lost during the separation process somewhere.
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Well you know we always say you can't "nice" her back, but I firmly believe you have even less of a chance to "mean" her back, LOL! I think you've got to strike a balance. You don't want to fawn all over her and be Plan B, but you definitely don't want to be cold/ indifferent/ uncaring either. Friendly neighbor is the best approach I think. Benito was/ is a master at it and it really paid off in his sitch.
Yeah I am realizing that I need to strike a balance. I am pretty black and white with this stuff and upon reflection I think that the last month or so I have probably come across as cold and uncaring. Certainly not the image that I want to project. I think I was just struggling to be around her in the last two weeks and so it's not been the greatest. But, I am in a better mindset now and I don't want to fulfill her prediction of me being angry and hateful etc. Obviously if there is an OM confirmed at any point, then that throws this out of the window.
I will have to channel my inner Benito and be that friendly neighbor without being overly enthusiastic and turning into Plan B. Plus I look much hotter now than a few months back with the weight loss and new haircut and getting my muscles more jacked up
hahaha... Thanks J for the vote of confidence 10-15 more pounds to go and i'll be at very low body fat percentage.
Will hit up some bars/pubs in the New Year and interact with some ladies to get all this confidence up. My aim is to be at the beach this summer, loving my time with the kids, and showing all dem single ladies what hot sexy DadBod can look like. Those Abs should speak for themselves lol.
If you hit up the bars make sure you stick to vodka, that beer will pack it on! Also, lay off all those fancy dinners you make also Own that dad bod M!
One of my personal trainer friends, and she is in effin' terrific shape and damn hot, told me something that I will never forget - Abs are made in the kitchen.
Clean eating is such a huge part of it. Don't worry, all my fancy dinners are still pretty good, but I need to lay off all that cheese, bread, and pasta.
That Dad Bod is coming bro! Sounds like yours is coming along nicely too.
So, I put the friendly neighbor theory into practice and channeled my inner Benito last night.
I had to go to W's place for a couplea things and she invited me in. Previously I would have declined but I accepted and we spent some time doing small chit chat and I was cool and calm and we shared a few jokes and laughs. No R talks and nothing too serious. I wasn't on edge and it seemed to make her relax as well.
When I left she asked me if she could give me a hug. We haven't touched each other in months now and I stopped initiating the hugs a while back because it just felt dumb. I wasn't going to initiate and bring them back. Anyways, that was nice and I just left.
She texts me later that night (I saw it this morning) that it was nice to see me and she'd like to do this again. She told me that when I was leaving and I said yes, it was nice and let's do it again. But, I ain't initiating [censored]. So, lets see if she wants to spend some more no-pressure time with me.
Before the DB police comes rolling in, I am just recounting what happened, not saying that my hopes are up or that I have expectations. I just want to do a 180 on not cutting people out and not being angry and hold grudges. But, she has to drive the bus and we'll see what happens.
In the meantime, I am still doing my thing and GALing and all of that. NC/Dark as well, unless she initiates stuff. I am getting the hang of it and will see how it works.
Had a positive interaction with her and she wasn't distant or mad or angry with me. So, that was nice.
We will do some stuff together for the kids the holidays. After reading Slater, I have decided to swallow my pride a little bit and participate in low key interactions that could help dissipate the anger on her part and mine as well. There is no sign of OM, so I am inclined to not give her the third degree treatment and be a little bit more open.
Keep the interactions low key and no-pressure and no R talks. Lets see how I feel about them and if I can handle them emotionally. I wasn't an emotional wreck last night, so that was good as it gave me a sign that I am slowly detaching.
Hey M...just so you know my W has not touched me in 7 months
I think everything sounds just fine, LH told me about a month ago that I entered the friend zone. IMO you are either dammed if you do and dammed if you don't. I also think having interactions like this are positive if for nothing else for the kids.
As long as you can handle them emotionally, don't read into the interactions as a sign she wants to recon, and have no expectations either way I think you are fine.
I don't think by doing this you will ruin your chances of recon. Some women are done no matter how hard you DB your a$$ off just keep it on the DL.
Yeh J & LH - I am pretty aware of not falling into the friend zone. I know these interactions are not a sign of recon or her having second thoughts or anything. I am not attaching any hopes or expectations that these interactions will lead to more things. I am going to go ahead with the mindset that they are just small positive chill interactions and keep doing my thing in the mean time.
I will never be cool being in the friend zone and she's not just going to be able to call me up and be her emotional support system. I am giving her a chance to see what she might be missing and then it's in her court.
I remember Benito went quite a few months NC/dark and then his W came around slowly with a few interactions and then wanting to spend time with him. I remember he said that he would always imagine what the next day would look like for him and what he's doing when she's not around. This helped him not get his hopes up and attach any expectations to these meets. I am trying to do something similar and my day today is going as I had planned it before.
But she's never going to be my buddy and I still plan on remaining mysterious and doing my thing. Still not initiating anything and doing my DBing with GAL and focusing on my goals. She wants to walk away from me then so be it at the end, but it ain't over till it's over.
Btw, I made some new buddies at my climbing gym and got a new climbing buddy. Expanding my social network slowly
M - My approach has been friendly and upbeat when I am around her. I still do not initiate conversation via text message or email unless it is kid related or money. I have not stopped doing that. When I am around her we will joke some, engage in some small chit-chat but nothing in-depth or serious, very surface level discussions. I have been inside her apartment a few times picking up the kids, etc but for never more than 5 minutes or so. I still don't linger. I have loosened up some and so has she. For example, when she picked up the kids on Sunday she came to the door and I motioned for her to come in. 3 months ago she would have knocked and waited for me to let her in. She was wound pretty tight.
My W has not confided in me emotionally, she has reached out a couple of times for my assistance on a couple of things but it was obvious that she had tried very hard on her own without having to call me. Very early on she wanted me to come over and help her with her smoke alarm however I declined and told her to call maintenance. Since then I do know she has been very careful about what to ask me for.
I guess I would just be careful of doing too much hanging out, lingering etc. unless it is centered around the kids.
Good for you! I played basketball this am and sat around afterwards for 20 min or chatting with the guys.
I learned the lesson the hard way last time. I thought she was sending me mixed messages and her actions were not lining up with her words and I was trying to figure out the maze.
The process also got my hopes and expectations up and I felt my heart was being yanked around.
This time around I am much wiser and I definitely do not want to put myself emotionally in the same place as before. I don't anticipate too much hanging out just us, but there will be kids stuff for sure. I am still going full speed on my life and if she wants to join me, then we'll have to cross that bridge then.
Right now it's just showing her that there is a safe path if she wants, but I am not hanging my hopes on it.
And you're right J - if my W is done and done like yours then nothing I do or show is going to bring them to change course. So I have to focus on the best for me and the kids.
The only thing I would like is for my girls to be comfortable with my W and I in the same room that we can be friendly towards each other for their benefit. I don't want them to feel awkward. If/when this happens we are going to be in each others lives for years so the smoother the better IMO. In order to make that happen though I have had to keep my emotions in check. Thats' where the IC and you all have really helped!
Currently I am trying to walk the fine line of treating her like a friendly neighboor, being a good co-parent while trying to keep the road free and clear if there is to be a return. Trying to do this while building attraction is a balance IMO but I think that is where the not pursuing, no R talks, NC, droping the rope and taking care of yourself physically and building confidence comes in.
Yeah good points everyone. I just want to make it clear that I am not going down the road where W and I become 'friends'. If that happens like ten years down the line, that's a different story. But, for now, that is not an acceptable situation to me.
Like J, I am trying to walk a fine line with this as there is no confirmed OM. Since I saw her the other day, I haven't pursued or followed up on anything, except her text which I acknowledged. I've left it in her court and I am still continuing my DB path and focusing on myself.
I am trying to accomplish two things - being my authentic self that only a fool would leave; and, keeping the path safe and clear if she wants a way back. This doesn't mean that if she shows genuine signs of recon that I'll just take her back. There's a lot of work to do if that happens.
I just want to get over the anger and bitterness and learn how to manage some semblance of a relationship with someone who I have to co-parent with. It's good for the kids if we are in the same room and we can just be relaxed.
I am not trying to nice my way back in because it doesn't work and it's not my MO any more. I am working had to shed the NGS nonsense and this is part of it. I will only do what is comfortable for me and keep emotions in check and expectations at sub zero levels.
Yes, I am still in the first year of BD; it's been about six months since we separated and about 7ish months since BD.
Where I am at, I can't file for D until 12 months of separation have passed. So, that takes me to June 2018. I don't think D is the solution here, but if she follows through on it, I won't offer any resistance. I really don't want to fight for someone who doesn't want to be with me.
She has always had serious issues following through on things. So, I am not sure if she will file for D when time comes or not.
Right now she's wrapped up in her work and a part time graduate program, which are both demanding and take up a lot of her time. I don't think she's even thinking about the MR and I know she doesn't want to work on it right now and has said to me she has a lot of anger.
Realistically, I think if she did want to come back, it won't happen until June next year when he program ends. Or that might seal the deal in this being completely over as she gets used to her single life. I dunno. You could DB your a$$ off but if they're done, then nothing really is going to bring them back. I am slowly coming to that realization, which in turn is helpful in detachment and just moving on with my life.
I don't have a concrete timeline in the traditional sense. As I've said, I don't want to file for D out of desperation or impatience. I will take that step from a place of strength and confidence. I don't want to use the D as a technique to get her back and be in a place where I don't care one way or the other when I file.
So, my timeline is really dictated by getting to a place where I have achieved my goals. I want to wake up one day and look myself in the mirror and be truly happy and see that I am a good, healthy, happy man. And then have that sentiment consistently over some time to ensure that I am really in a good place with myself.
At that point, I will visit the decision about the D. All my short term goals have a rough timeline until next summer, which is realistic in terms of achieving them.
At one point in the last few months, she told me that I have always been AMAZING - which was really ironic considering she's left me. In my head, I was like - AMAZING IS JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU? That made me laugh and chuckle a bit.
I want her to see what she's lost and right now that is partly driven by some revenge and anger. But, when I think about it clearly, I don't think she deserves who I am even right now, warts and all. Forget six months from now where I will be in a better place.
Long answer to your question, but my timeline is really dictated by my own sense of accomplishment and not her. I control that timeline and when I am ready for the next step, which will be D and finding someone who can appreciate me for who I am, I will unhesitatingly take it.
Maika, sorry for the delayed response. I do think before you get too far out that a change in your approach can't hurt so long as you ensure it looks nothing like pursuit. As discussed, the bonus for you is you are not aware of OM and the reality is, although we have time to think about these things, if you haven't seen evidence of OM in 6+ months, it's probably because there isn't one...yet. What you don't want is to regret not making a change in your approach after she meets someone. Once she does, I do expect you will notice a big change in her demeanor. I doubt very much there will be hugs. So go ahead, but do it in subtle ways.
For example, make an offhand comment about some fun activity you have planned with the kids. If she bites by asking more about it, or says, that sounds like fun, then extend a casual invite by simply saying, "the kids would love to have you there if you wanna join us, in fact, D5 asked if mommy was coming" (even if she didn't). No chance she verifies that with D5. That's one advantage of having young children if R is still the goal. If she doesn’t bite, no invite.
Don't overdo it though. There were a few family invites that I declined in the past year or so that may have had us in a better place today if accepted. The problem you have of course with refusing these offers, they eventually stop coming. Because this is them swallowing their pride a little and if the answer from us is consistently no, that sends a message. But...but, if you accept, you need to make sure you're not trying too hard, keep it about the kids, follow her lead. Maybe even cut it short early and say you have to get the kids home for whatever reason. Leave her wanting more! Another reality, she can find nothing that competes with having her children with both parents at the same time. No matter who she (or you) might bring into the fold at some point in the future, it can't compare to the family unit, especially from the perspective of the children. My kids freak out when they see us together. That in and of itself might be telling, if she comes back for more, a good clue where her head is at. If she doesn't, it's because it's too painful a reminder of a life she has no intention of going back to and doesn't want the children getting accustomed to being with both mommy and daddy.
The important point here I think is you don’t want your NC to have them thinking that they can’t approach you with something, a suggestion that may work as one small step toward mending the relationship. Somehow you have to let them know you are still agreeable without putting any pressure on them to look your way.
At some point, if she is thinking at all about whether she overreacted, or is having regrets (both of which she will NEVER admit), she will say or do something that reminds you of the W you had when you were married. Then it's on...
But I don't want to influence your DB'ing, you are doing great since the big experiment and learned a valuable lesson there. These women are difficult to understand and may still just be waiting for another opportunity to say no. Bear in mind that I am nowhere near a reconciliation. Indeed, you seem to be in a much better place right now (but could still be just as far from reconciliation as I am, that’s the problem, you never really know). If you read the most recent post by Coconut, his ex-wife is being nice and he now realizes there is no going back and really wants nothing to do with her “niceness”, it sickens him (his words). You really have to wait for them to get to a point where there can be no mistaking how they will respond when you finally say, "Are we actually doing this again?" And even then, even then, she might respond with "maybe".
As someone once said, in twenty years, who gives a $hit anyway?? So you had to eat some crow by agreeing to let her eat some cake once every couple weeks (or once/month seems like a good concession without being too nice), if she warms a bit and begins spending more time with you and the kids, it necessarily means less time for one of her girlfriends to say, "you know, my husband has this single friend who is a super nice guy..."
Yeah, with the NC approach, if the LBS refuses offers consistently, then the messaging is pretty clear and those offers stop coming. With no OM right now, I can tolerate some cake eating, especially because it is for the benefit of the kids.
My previous approach, when I was in my confused phase and figuring out DB, was to reciprocate an invite to her for something after she's invited me 2-3 times. Also, doing it kinda low key and not in a needy way. Like I am doing this and you're welcome to join, but I am doing it anyway regardless of your decision.
What you said about the family unit is very true and can give a good indication of where her head is at. She just invited me for breakfast at her place on my D's bday coming up. It will be a short morning visit and I accepted it because D will love that.
I am still planning on doing something with the kids just myself and I will think about letting her know and giving her an invite.
There is really no way of knowing where you are in terms of possibility of a recon or her wanting to come back, and I think at this point I have realized it is useless to think that way. Walking this fine line with NC/Going Dark, and keeping the door slightly open for her without actually telling her that directly.
So, I am not worrying about if interactions are positive for recon or whatever. My approach is - will this be a good thing for the kids? If so, then I will do it and continue the non-pursuit and not getting into R talks, and being friendly without getting friendzoned. There is a lot of nuance here, but I think I am in a place where I get it and I can keep my emotions and expectations in check.
I just know now that if I can keep my anger and bitterness in check and use it for personal growth rather than being punitive to W, even if it's small things, then I will come out of this as a better person. I can also swallow my pride a little bit and do what's best for the kids. But, doing all of this with zero pressure and continuing to live my life as a single person.
That's understandable. Just thinking about a new R and making it permanent looks like horror movie to me right now. I was just commenting on you finding contentment after the abyss. That's definitely something to aspire for.
Yes, absolutely! Not just contentment but real happiness! If I take off the rose-colored glasses, I can see I was not ecstatic in the M. I accepted my situation and would have stayed loyal to the end, but I wasn't super happy by any means. This whole reality check made me step back and question what happiness really is, and realize that I need to embrace it NOW, not keep expecting it to happen "some day" like I did before.
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Yeah I am realizing that I need to strike a balance. I am pretty black and white with this stuff and upon reflection I think that the last month or so I have probably come across as cold and uncaring.
Good. We do have to take stock now and then of how we are treating others, try to see it from their point of view, and adjust accordingly. Not just in our romantic relationships, but with our kids, friends, work, etc.
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I will have to channel my inner Benito and be that friendly neighbor without being overly enthusiastic and turning into Plan B. Plus I look much hotter now than a few months back with the weight loss and new haircut and getting my muscles more jacked up
Of course you do, and you no doubt have the swagger to go with it I was cleaning up some in the house last night and found an old picture of myself from about 15 years ago. WOW. I barely recognized myself. In fact I didn't at first. I showed my son and asked him if he knew who it was, he said "well that's our house, but... is that you?" I remember years ago there was a gym ad that said "are you 34 going on 43 or 43 going on 34"? I feel like I'm 56 going on 34
Originally Posted By: Maika
One of my personal trainer friends, and she is in effin' terrific shape and damn hot, told me something that I will never forget - Abs are made in the kitchen.
Very common phrase in bodybuilding circles, and 100% accurate. You can pack on some serious muscle, but if it's covered by a layer of fat then no one gives you a second look. But cut down to 12% bf or less and suddenly you're raking in the compliments. I cut from 20% down to 12% and the GF kept telling me I was "getting swole" when in fact I had lost a lot of weight. On hot days some of us take our shirts off at the gym and the younger guys were telling me "I want to look like you at your age, in fact I want to look like you now!" I'm not trying to boast, but rather just point out how accurate that is- abs, and really your whole appearance, are made in the kitchen. Pack the muscle on in the gym, then tweak the kitchen stuff to show it off. I could go on forever about this but just quickly I'll add I'm a huge proponent of counting macros. Especially when cutting because keeping the protein up is really tough and needs to be monitored, and the only way to cut without losing muscle.
Haha AS, yeah I could go on and on about diet and working out. Because I have Type 2 diabetes (thanks genes), I have done some serious research into how to get it under control and not just rely on pharmacological drugs to do the work. The reliance on drugs is scary because if you don't make lifestyle changes, then you keep punishing your body and have to get on stronger drugs and eventually insulin - something I really want to avoid. Btw, I am no doc so no one reading this should take my advice as gold. I am just telling from what's worked for me.
Anyways, so getting my blood sugars under control is strongly related to dietary changes and physical exercise. So, I know what you mean about counting macros. I am slowly transitioning to a low carb lifestyle (and has to be for life for me), and that has done wonders for my blood sugar and also losing weight. I don't count my macros religiously, but I know roughly how many grams of carbs I am eating, and I try to meet my protein macros daily, and then fat on top of that which I don't count but eat as long as I am full.
I know this really switched from what we post about here, but what you mentioned about body fat is on the dollar.
In other news, I have the kids for the rest of the week and it's awesome to have them back. Feels like eternity since I saw them. W sent me a very cheery email about kid stuff today, which came across as odd to me. Like everything is peachy between us lol. It was all kids stuff so I replied and got it sorted, but just taken aback by the niceness of it. Great mind reading fodder but I just let it roll off and went about my business today.
Hi Maika, sounds like you are generally doing well - and kudos to you as your BD date was still relatively recent.
Just reading your post above and I remembered seeing a recent news article about some work done by Newcastle University (I'm in the UK.)
They had some significant success in helping people put type 2 diabetes into remission by going on low calorie diets for a period of time. I can't post a link - and I'm not any sort of expert, but just mentioning in case it may be of interest.
Well done on letting go of the impulse to mind read by the way - best to shrug and keep moving forward, so - good for you!
T 13 M 7 Me 48 H 46 SS 15 BD 7.14 PA D final 5.16 (H filed)
We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
Yeh you probably saw something regarding putting diabetes under good sugar control and management through a low-carb diet. That seems to be the outcome of many clinical trials (which are the gold standard in scientific research). I can say just from my personal experience that this is true and it has long term benefits.
I do have up and down days and slowly they are more in the up category than down, which is a huge improvement. I still find the decision to walk away baffling vs trying to work on the MR. But, at this point, there are just no good answers to that conundrum and I am better off DBing and living my life to the best of my ability.
The mind reading has pretty much dropped to zero now and I don't try to see any hidden messages in anything from W. I am also at a place where I seriously consider whether a new MR with W is possible unless she makes some changes to offer me a partnership that I want. I think getting back some control over my life and not being nostalgic about familiarity with W has helped me a lot. I have to give credit to this board for that. I don't know if I would've been in this place without the support, advice, and encouragement that I found here.
I do keep some hope tucked away that we can have a shot at recon as there are things about W I still love and would want to have that in my life. But whether or not recon can actually lead to piecing is a whole different ballgame, to which I have no answer to.
I am giving myself enough time and learning how to be super patient through all of this. And getting to a place where I am happy with myself. Once that is in place, all bets are off.
I am wondering if I should change my approach with her. Not with the aim of seeing if it leads to recon or anything, but just in generally to show her that I am a different person.
She predicted that I was going to remain angry with her and cut her out of my life - which is how I have survived in the past when close people have betrayed me. Unfortunately, that has happened and led me to built survival skills for emotional protection.
I don't get to see her often and I don't want to manufacture excuses where she sees me, but I think that if I can show her that I am not doing what she predicted, it might make her take a step back in her thinking. Also, I don't know how healthy it is for me to hold on to the anger and bitterness. I just need to find productive ways to let it go.
About not doing family events, I am completely with you on it. Even though it is about making the WAW feel loss of family time, as you mentioned in Chris's thread, it can come across as punitive in some ways. My kids bdays are coming up and we haven't discussed it yet. I am planning on doing something with them just with me, but I wonder if I should bring up doing something together. At this point, it would at least be for the sake of the kids and I know they would prefer that. I can swallow my pride and not wanting to do family time for their sakes and see how it goes.
I guess what I am asking you is if you would do some of these things differently now that you're 20 months out. Not saying if it would have changed anything in the sitch or made your W think differently, but if is the higher road to take here.
Part of me does want to punish her, no doubt. But, as you said, if I swallow some of my pride and anger, I wonder if it could lead to thawing of everything and allow her to see me in my new authentic self. This is all with zero expectations obviously.
This is such a minefield and in the case where there is no OM, I wonder if the LBS swallowing their pride first is the more prudent move to make.
Slater—have enjoyed your thoughts...when are you going to start your own thread???
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Nothing new with W, but I am feeling a lot more detached, calm, and at peace with myself.
Saw W this morning for a bit and it was totally fine from my end. I wasn't on edge. I wasn't dreading to have her around. I felt internally very relaxed and calm. Hugs and some light convo, but I am at a place where I didn't have a second take on if anything means anything.
I know there's a lot of posts with people struggling and in pain and hurt, and I have posted a lot of my own share of that no doubt.
Just wanted to come and post on good days as well because it does get better. Detachment is a wonderful place to hang out and have a few drinks. You will get better. Just hang in tight for a bit until the storm passes.
Still the same ol' same ol'. All is well in the world of Maika right now.
Going to meet up with W for one of my kids bday next week. She asked to spend time together and do something. I agreed and if it's a bit of cake-eating, so be it. It will be amazing for the kids and that's what I am focusing on.
Hope everyone can have a good break and take this time to just evaluate life, enjoy time with people you cherish in your life, and kick back.
I aim to start 2018 full force with everything and doubling down on all my goals.
Nothing much changed in the sitch, but I wanted to do a final 2017 update and close the year.
Still NC/dark with W aside from kids stuff.
Got a reality check this week that W is still in her selfish mindset and things haven't really changed on her end. Her time with the kids is not optimal and unfortunately I can't do much about it. It isn't super neglectful but her choices are about her and not the kids.
She's keeping up with her new circle of friends and is dragging the kids to that when she has them. Recently she took them to someone's place and stuck them in front of the tv with video games while she did her socializing with her group of friends. This is a woman who was always dead set against having a gaming console in the house because she hated how it was all consuming and wanted to keep kids away from that.
Also, the other day was one of my kids bdays and she was supposed to take them in the evening because they were travelling out of town the next day. Made sense to have them over and get ready in the morning and go. Either she forgot or just didn't plain read the text I had sent about it. She had made some evening plans and was having people over and so said she wasn't going to be able to take the kids. Also told me in the afternoon of the same day.
Luckily, I didn't have anything planned for the evening and so I took the kids for the night. I know folks here will say that I should've just stuck to the original agreement and made her take them, but I will take all the extra time I can get with them. She has put them on the lower end of her priority list with her being on top, and I don't want the kids to be short changed by her poor choices. I want to be the stable lighthouse for them and I will always prioritize them first over anything.
This hasn't happened in the past so it's not like there is a precedent for her dumping them on me so that she can do her own thing. I didn't sign up to be a part-time parent and her choice for the S made that decision for me.
Moving forward though, I will ensure that the communications are more clear about the kids schedule and she doesn't get to do this again. I will not enable her selfish choices. However, I don't get to dictate what she does with them when she has them.
So, the selfishness continues full speed and all she is thinking is about herself and her life - kids are on the side and I am not even on the horizon.
It's all good though for me. I had a great chat with some of my close friends this week and one of them was like - if someone is asking for separation and divorce then they should have the balls to follow through with it. They know that I don't want a divorce right now but I explained to them that I was not in limbo and not waiting on her.
If her past behavior is any indication, I am certain that she won't file for D when the one year timeline elapses. The more time that has gone by, I am getting much more confident about life without her and not afraid of filing for D.
She is being a sub-par mother, is selfish, and thinks her life is going to be just great. Hasn't suffered much loss yet, but the D will definitely crack that illusion. I am losing my desire to be with her and I know that I can easily pick up the parenting slack from her end and be there for my kids fully.
So, we'll see what 2018 has in store. My main mantra right now is just gaining back all the control that I can have as a person for myself and my kids, and truly follow my dreams and create the happiness that I want.
Spending today just gearing up for the new year with a fresh outlook and perspective, and ready to embrace the path towards all my goals.
Thank you folks here for helping me regain my sanity and I will be around. Hope you all can end this year on a positive note and start afresh tomorrow.
Maika. Reading your recap is pretty much like I'd written it myself. It's great to see that we can step up as dads, although we probably haven't sucked at it before. Stay strong and good luck for 2018!
Me:39 W:36 S:12 D:9 T:14 M:11 Separation:sep. 1 2017 D filed oct. 2017 D finalized july 2018 OM confirmed feb 2018 D finalized July 2018
The fact is this. You have to be in pain before you can learn.
Petri - yeah, there are so many overlapping elements in the sitch's here that it's incredible to see how predictable the pattern of behavior is. There are always nuances and differences, but the overall themes are very aligned. I definitely didn't suck as a father before, but now I have upped my game and I am looking forward to 2018 where I can be even more engaged with my kids.
Subitai - the physical separation is a HUGE factor for the LBS. It was jarring for a little bit in the beginning, but I was able to relax and breathe within a week. Having your own personal space with your W not being in your face and space is so important for GAL, detachment, and just having the ability to think things through and rediscover yourself. I'll catch up on your sitch. The physical separation will really help you to become cool and collected as well - so, look forward to it. Just takes a bit of time and conscious effort to focus on yourself and you will be on your way.
Just got some awesome very spicy takeout (my fav specialty).. too darn cold to go outside for NYE and so gonna curl up with the food as soon as it arrives and watch some stuff from Netflix, and sip on some nice cab sauv.
Tomorrow is a new day and a new year and so looking forward to it. I got this and so do you!
Maika, sorry to hear your wife isn't improving and isn't prioritizing the kids. I feel so bad for them, but at least they have you as their father. Best wishes in 2018!
Hi Maika, I hope you had a happy new year. I just wanted to say that I am impressed by your general attitude and the significant progress you have made since BD. You really have moved solidly forward, and so kudos to you.
I'm sorry that your W isn't parenting that well at the moment. All we can do is control what we get to control and keep moving forward - but I know you know that already..
Take care and Happy New Year to you xx
T 13 M 7 Me 48 H 46 SS 15 BD 7.14 PA D final 5.16 (H filed)
We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
Thank you Nicole, Sotto, and J for the wishes. Hope you've all had a good start to the New Year and keeping the DB commitment going.
I got a lot of stuff done today and it has been quite productive. Listening to some awesome podcasts while being busy and just putting plans and goals into action.
I feel like my sitch is pretty uneventful at this point with the same status for the last many weeks - NC/Dark; whenever I have contact with W, I keep it pleasant and short; working on all my goals and being more involved with the kids.
Where I am at, I technically can't get a D until June of this year, but my astute lawyer friend pointed out that I can file after six months of S because it takes about six months for the file to reach the court. So, really I could file for D right now if I wanted to.
Couple of my friends have told me that I should just do it and cut the bait and run. They know that I don't want a divorce and all of that, but they feel a bit confused by it. One of my close female friends told me that from the sitch's of some people she knows, as soon as the S happens, the male LBS goes out and starts dating and sleeping around. She's kinda surprised I didn't do that and was pretty supportive of my approach.
Right now I am in a bit of a weird head space. I am trying to figure out why I don't want a D - aside from the fact that keeping the family unit together would be good for kids. I am having a hard time coming up with good reasons why I'd want to work on this marriage. I am not exhausted or living in limbo or wanting to give up, but I need more clarity on what I am fighting for.
I told my friends that I don't want a D just so that I can go out and date, and it would be all good cuz technically I have the D. I want to D because I am at a point where I have no interest in recon and I am okay moving on with my life, and not filing for D as a tactic.
I am in this place where nothing is pulling me towards W any more and having a desire to work on the MR. I have left her to her devices and not pursued and she hasn't peeped about the R for months now. I don't know if she has an OM or not, but I don't care at this point. I truly believe that I don't know her any more and she's really at the same level as an acquaintance.
I am not rushing out to file for D any time soon, but I am warming up to the idea. I used to care about the fact that if I filed for D, she would think that she was right in doing the separation and that I didn't want to be with her and I just didn't know it back then. But, I don't care about that as much anymore. She can think whatever she wants.
So my timeline was June for my goals and I am well along the way for that. I won't make a decision about what's next until then, but I feel that I will know by then what I really want.
Also btw, this woman has lately been kinda flirting with me where I get my coffee sometimes and I've been social with her without being flirty. Just being nice and having conversation. I almost wanted to ask her out for a drink today, but I didn't. My sex drive is pretty high and my only motivation to spend time with another woman would be for that right now - I know that's kinda adding fuel to the fire right now and I am not actually ready for it. I have nothing to offer in terms of a relationship right now and so that would be unfair to any woman if I went on a date. Let's see what the next six months have in store.
I feel like my sitch is pretty uneventful at this point with the same status for the last many weeks - NC/Dark; whenever I have contact with W, I keep it pleasant and short; working on all my goals and being more involved with the kids.
Yup, same here. What are the goals you are working on?
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Right now I am in a bit of a weird head space. I am trying to figure out why I don't want a D - aside from the fact that keeping the family unit together would be good for kids. I am having a hard time coming up with good reasons why I'd want to work on this marriage. I am not exhausted or living in limbo or wanting to give up, but I need more clarity on what I am fighting for.
It is definitely a weird place to be in and I wonder the same things. If you get the answer let me know because I have been struggling with this one.
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I am in this place where nothing is pulling me towards W any more and having a desire to work on the MR. I have left her to her devices and not pursued and she hasn't peeped about the R for months now. I don't know if she has an OM or not, but I don't care at this point. I truly believe that I don't know her any more and she's really at the same level as an acquaintance.
Over time I have felt the distance creep in as well. At times I really find it hard to believe that this MR could ever be reconciled. I have no idea what she does in her spare time, what she is thinking and since my communication with her is no more than 5 min or so per weak I don't see how we could ever move forward.
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So my timeline was June for my goals and I am well along the way for that. I won't make a decision about what's next until then, but I feel that I will know by then what I really want.
I pray that you will get the clarity you need. I have been praying for this as well. Maybe I have been getting the signs though and have just been ignoring them.
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Also btw, this woman has lately been kinda flirting with me where I get my coffee sometimes and I've been social with her without being flirty. Just being nice and having conversation. I almost wanted to ask her out for a drink today, but I didn't.
Good for you, getting noticed is something that I have not experienced for a couple of months now. Even if you don't act on anything just having conversation can be a rewarding experience.
Yup, same here. What are the goals you are working on?
My main priorities right now are - working out, climbing, eating well, taking my meds, reading, and playing a musical instrument. I have built that into my schedule and that strategy has worked really well. Even though I had written them down previously, I realized that I needed to put them in my calendar and make time for it. It's really worked well that way. I am also still trying to improve my time with the kids and being more chill and relaxed with them - there is great improvement in that area, but I still have some impulse reactions that I need to work on.
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It is definitely a weird place to be in and I wonder the same things. If you get the answer let me know because I have been struggling with this one.
Yeah, I toyed with the idea of making a pro/con list about why I wanted to work on the MR and what W brought to my life, but I am hesitant to do that for some reason. I feel like it might just push me over the edge and that there are things that I might not have thought through really well yet. I don't think I can work on the MR with just the kids as my motivation. She has to bring her A game to it and I just have some non-negotiables that I can't ignore anymore. I am wondering if my desire to work on the MR was tied to me 'winning' this fight and appeasing my ego, rather than seeing what she truly brings to the marriage. I miss the intimacy and connection, but you can build that with someone else too. I guess I need a lot more than just nostalgia for things to work out.
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Over time I have felt the distance creep in as well. At times I really find it hard to believe that this MR could ever be reconciled. I have no idea what she does in her spare time, what she is thinking and since my communication with her is no more than 5 min or so per weak I don't see how we could ever move forward
Yeah same here with the distance creep. I also don't know if she considers being a 50% parent as a loss to her. She's out doing her thing and I am not sure where the kids fit in her priorities. I also have no idea what she does with her time and I barely see her. I think that I will have to make the decision in this scenario and I am just trying to make sure that I am in a place where I am okay with it.
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I pray that you will get the clarity you need. I have been praying for this as well. Maybe I have been getting the signs though and have just been ignoring them.
Thanks man! Same to you. I don't think we can always get 100% clarity, but I think we can get enough to make a good decision. I ask myself why would I want to hang in when W just blew things up, didn't even entertain a second chance, has shown no remorse, and doesn't want to be with me. Why expend one ounce of energy on her when she's had chances to do something but didn't. For me, it's like the years we had together didn't mean enough for her to even at least try. Instead she walked out and made a decision that impacted three other people. I am not saying she didn't consider it, but it didn't matter. So, why should I sit here and stand when she didn't even allow an opportunity to just 'try'. The relationship didn't hold enough water to just 'try', not giving guarantees that it will work out, but just 'try'.
So, I am getting closer to just moving on with my life. My new mantra is 'I am waiting for me'. I am not waiting for her. Working on my goals is going to get me there and when I do, I will know enough to make a decision about where I want to go.
I really feel done right now. I know it will ebb and flow, but my emotions haven't been on a spectrum in a while now and so I think I am getting more settled and grounded. I love my goals and what I am doing. I am accomplishing everything and it is just bringing me so much joy. I don't want to waste a second on her anymore.
Hi Maika, as I wrote on my thread recently, I was reading about separation and divorce statistics and it sounds like the best case scenario after someone decides to separate is a 5 - 10% chance of reconciliation. Even then I imagine those few who reconcile have a lot of long-term hurt and anger and the relationship will never be the same. One of my former neighbors was getting divorced and said "do everything possible to avoid divorce, but if it has to happen, do it quickly."
I know DB suggests NC and to give the other spouse time and space but there comes a time when you're waiting for nothing. If the other spouse doesn't show any signs of interest after months of you doing everything you can, and you find yourself ready to let go, then I imagine the only other considerations are your kids and the financial aspect of divorce.
I'm sure others who are more experienced can say a lot more, but just in my own mind I feel like there needs to be some last attempt to save the marriage other than just endless NC. Like DB says at the very end of it all, say you're going to file for divorce and plan to follow-through. The final hope at that point is the other person will 'wake up.' If they don't, it's over.
I wanted so badly to save my marriage. I've been stuck in this crisis with my husband for over two years and now he's done. In your case you sound like you're in a better position to move on. If you're still young and have other prospects then you should be able to get through this although facing the reality that the marriage is ending once the divorce is happening is still sad. Breaking apart a family is terribly sad even if there are other things to be happy and thankful for.
Even then I imagine those few who reconcile have a lot of long-term hurt and anger and the relationship will never be the same
I've followed some piecing threads here and it looks really hard. I believe it when people say that piecing is way harder than being in this position right now. That's why it's important for me to have my non-negotiables. I don't want to do all that work if W isn't full in.
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but just in my own mind I feel like there needs to be some last attempt to save the marriage other than just endless NC.
Ahhh! Endless NC. I like that lol. Well, it does feel like that right now. I don't have any expectations from it, but it just seems like a long frikkin' tunnel. The only expectation from all of this NC is that when I get out of it, I am a better and stronger person. I don't expect anything from her. And at this point, the last thing I have is filing for D. As I said, I'll do that when I am ready and I can go either way - divorced or piecing. But both options have their requirements and so lets see what happens.
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Breaking apart a family is terribly sad even if there are other things to be happy and thankful for.
Yeah I feel for my kids mostly. What really gets me is that she didn't even want to 'try', which could've led to better outcomes for everyone I believe. But, she's in her own world and that trumped everything else.
AnotherStander brings up the point about timing a lot. That in most cases the WAS will want to attempt recon. If I could draw that timing from the WAS and LBS into Venn diagrams, the intersection point seems very small. And even though we're on their timeline for a recon attempt, I'd rather just figure out a timeline for my needs and accomplish that.
I am getting mentally stronger and physically better and 2018 is going to be my year of finally doing the transformation that I've always wanted to do but couldn't because I was stuck in my depression. I've had some great insights into why I was essentially sabotaging myself in my goals in the past and I have been able to overcome them slowly.
I am not bragging or anything, but I know the game that I bring as a partner and a father, and it is in the top 5% of men out there. So, it's her loss in the end.
My main priorities right now are - working out, climbing, eating well, taking my meds, reading, and playing a musical instrument. I have built that into my schedule and that strategy has worked really well.
A very strong list, very similar to mine. Replace climbing with basketball and replace taking meds with attending church weekly and we are there. I took Guitar lessons about 10 years ago but then stopped playing when we had kids. I have recently picked it up again and have enjoyed it.
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Yeah, I toyed with the idea of making a pro/con list about why I wanted to work on the MR and what W brought to my life, but I am hesitant to do that for some reason. I feel like it might just push me over the edge and that there are things that I might not have thought through really well yet.
Dude, same here. When I think about the pros and cons its tough. Kids will adjust so you definitely have to have more of a reason than that to just keep the family together. If she didn't bring her A game before is it foolish to think that all of a sudden they would start?
I think at first it is ego, then you start missing the connection but over time your ego heals and you realize you can function fine without the connection so then you really start to think about why you love your spouse.
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I also don't know if she considers being a 50% parent as a loss to her.
I know my W sees this as a benefit. During kid drop off last night she said to me...."Isn't it a good feeling to not have any kid responsibilities for a week"? A few months ago she also made the comment that not having the kids for a week is "the reward". I have no doubts where my W's head is at.
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I ask myself why would I want to hang in when W just blew things up, didn't even entertain a second chance, has shown no remorse, and doesn't want to be with me. Why expend one ounce of energy on her when she's had chances to do something but didn't. For me, it's like the years we had together didn't mean enough for her to even at least try. Instead she walked out and made a decision that impacted three other people. I am not saying she didn't consider it, but it didn't matter.
Amen! When you put it like this it makes me want to call my W on the phone right now and say I am moving forward! Your W might have tried in her own way but she never told you so you both never had an opportunity to try together. That still upsets me the most.
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I am accomplishing everything and it is just bringing me so much joy. I don't want to waste a second on her anymore.
That's awesome, good for you. I always thought my W was a fool, I know what I bring to the table. I slacked off for the last year so for me it was getting my mojo back.
One of my former neighbors was getting divorced and said "do everything possible to avoid divorce, but if it has to happen, do it quickly."
I had a buddy tell me the same thing. He said it is better to make it happen quick before OM or OW get involved because when they do your spouse changes and they start asking and doing things they never did before.
He said him as his W started off with amicable D talks but they all changed when she found OM and he was in the picture.
Replace climbing with basketball and replace taking meds with attending church weekly and we are there. I took Guitar lessons about 10 years ago but then stopped playing when we had kids. I have recently picked it up again and have enjoyed it.
Niicceee!!!! You got a pretty strong list going on yourself.
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If she didn't bring her A game before is it foolish to think that all of a sudden they would start?
Exactly. So, that's why without genuine remorse and apology and really pushing to work things out, it's not a serious attempt at recon.
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I know my W sees this as a benefit.
I am fairly certain my W sees it this way as well. I just can't understand it. I don't know how you can't see this as a serious loss.
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Amen! When you put it like this it makes me want to call my W on the phone right now and say I am moving forward! Your W might have tried in her own way but she never told you so you both never had an opportunity to try together. That still upsets me the most.
haha yeh! I wanna call her up and say the same and move on. Maybe W tried in her way to say something, but if she could clearly come out and say that she wanted to separate, why couldn't see say whatever else she wanted. Not finding an opportunity to even 'try' together is still pretty upsetting. Makes my last decade of life look fairly useless. Feels like I lost a whole chunk of my life with someone for whom it doesn't seem to have meant anything if they could just throw me to the curb like dirty trash.
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That's awesome, good for you. I always thought my W was a fool, I know what I bring to the table. I slacked off for the last year so for me it was getting my mojo back
Same here. I slacked off because I was depressed and I have been to hell and back many times with what's happened to my life before BD. $hit I lived in hell for many years - they have a seat for me there. So, now that I am getting my mojo back, I know that my game is in the top percentile and I won't settle for mediocrity. And I know you won't either J.
Our W's have to rise up just like we are rising up. Without that, it's not worth the time or the effort.
Not finding an opportunity to even 'try' together is still pretty upsetting. Makes my last decade of life look fairly useless. Feels like I lost a whole chunk of my life with someone for whom it doesn't seem to have meant anything if they could just throw me to the curb like dirty trash.
I wonder if you asked your W, would she say she did try?
Reading the thread, this idea that the W will not even try stuck out at me because I of course feel the same way in my sitch. However, my W has told me she tried. Her idea of trying is a lot different than mine. In my W's case, her "trying" was that she didn't leave a year or two ago, that she "tried" to love me (whatever that means).
Anyway, just throwing the idea out there that in their mind, they may have tried.
Fast & Sub - sorry I didn't clarify what I meant by 'try'.
What I meant by it is that W didn't want to 'try' to even salvage the marriage and went the BD route. Meaning she didn't tell me she was unhappy and wanted things to change.
I see no real evidence of her 'trying' during our marriage. When I think of 'trying', I think of a concerted effort by both people to address issues in the marriage. For this, these issues have to be put out in the open.
'Trying' is not some covert black ops where one party is trying to do something behind the scenes without the other person knowing. That is one person doing things with whatever mind reading they're doing about the other person.
What I am upset about is that she didn't ever bring up any issues during the MR - and I have wracked my brains to remember any conversations about any issues and I can't recall any - and then suddenly just doing BD and not even wanting to 'try' to salvage the relationship. So, the decade plus of us being married and together didn't mean enough to even 'try' on her part - which is why I feel like I just lost a chunk of my life that I will never get back because it didn't mean enough to the other person.
I want to say I am strictly talking about my sitch. I know there are others here where their WAS/WW/WH have brought up issues that were not taken seriously by the LBS, or were not understood as serious.
Them 'trying' in the background is not 'trying' when the LBS has no idea what the issues are and cannot contribute to a truly collaborative effort. Marriage is not a one-way street.
My W also never brought up issues in our MR. I had to discover any issues though following MWD advice in DB-ing and doing 180s on them. Keeping a journal helped me identify issues. My W's communication continues to be indirect and via innuendo. I now find myself sometimes saying to her, just tell me what you want.
If you asked my W did she try, she will say yes. To her trying is very different than what I or you consider trying. To her, not asking for a D two years ago is trying. I can guess, although she doesn't tell me, that her trying was going to the movies on a Friday with me even though she didn't want to, having sex even though she didn't want to, putting her cell phone down to listen to how my day at work was, etc. Just staying in the MR was trying.
What my W has never done is accept that any of her behaviors contribute to the health of our MR. As MWD says, it takes only one to tango. I did all the 180s, I read relationship books, and I think -- no I know, I'm a much better partner now. My W was ready to D in 2013 but my DB-ing turned the sitch around. We failed in reconciliation partly because my W was not really committed and unwilling to take any positive actions. I remember following the DB advice to ask for what you want. I had read the Five Love Languages book and recognized our love languages. I would ask my W, if you do this little thing it helps make me feel loved. She would do it once and then not again.
Why do our WAW not try? I suspect my W and many others feel they are already good partners in the MR and all the problems are due to their spouses (us). Whereas I feel I have grown and become a better partner, my W has not changed that aspect in these five years.
I remember during reconciliation a conversations with my W and she said a MR should NOT be work -- "it just is". She really believes that a MR is good just because the partners love each other and it shouldn't take any effort. To my W, love can come and go, and you can do nothing about it. If this is the worldview of a WAW, then there is no sense in "trying" because you cannot change love or the MR.
So, I do agree with you that our WAS have not really tried to identify issues in the MR and address them. I believe the reason is they have a very different worldview. Cadet has said "love is a choice", but the WAW doesn't believe it is a choice. To the WAW, it either exists or doesn't exist.
In the WAW's perspective, not having ended the MR sooner and sticking around was 'trying'.
To my W, love can come and go, and you can do nothing about it. If this is the worldview of a WAW, then there is no sense in "trying" because you cannot change love or the MR.
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In the WAW's perspective, not having ended the MR sooner and sticking around was 'trying'
Both really good points. I believe my W believes something along those lines about love. One time she said to me she should've tried harder. To which my thinking was, when did you actually try because this is the first I am hearing about it.
Not at all discounting my faults in the MR, but this is largely about her and not me. Let's see how any future 'butterflies in your stomach' love business goes for her. Sorry, some anger and resentment still, but I am working it out of my system.
Last edited by Cadet; 01/09/1808:20 AM. Reason: Start a new thread message
My W actually stated that when the love was "gone" there was no way for it to return. Once the flame is out it can't be relit.
This is complete non-sense in my opinion, but in order for the flame to be relit the W needs to want to do so.
Truthbuster.
Married 4.5, Together 6 M: 36, W: 33, no kids Separation date: 7/8/2017 Bomb dropped: 8/18/2017 Last communication: 1/8/2018 - now nothing OM confirmed - now ended (?)
I think this whole "flame" mentality is pretty widespread. It explains how some people can suddenly change. It all boils down to them not "feeling" the MR any more, and that's where they feel justified in throwing in the towel.
My STBXW was big into romance novels. I wonder how much of a role that played in her seeing love as a feeling.
Me-47,XW-43 S13,S16 M:18 BD:4-23-17 W filed:7-17-17 (5 months of in-house separation hell) W moved out:1-6-18 D granted:2-15-18 Decree signed:3-29-18
I see no real evidence of her 'trying' during our marriage. When I think of 'trying', I think of a concerted effort by both people to address issues in the marriage. For this, these issues have to be put out in the open.
'Trying' is not some covert black ops where one party is trying to do something behind the scenes without the other person knowing. That is one person doing things with whatever mind reading they're doing about the other person.
What I am upset about is that she didn't ever bring up any issues during the MR - and I have wracked my brains to remember any conversations about any issues and I can't recall any - and then suddenly just doing BD and not even wanting to 'try' to salvage the relationship.
Them 'trying' in the background is not 'trying' when the LBS has no idea what the issues are and cannot contribute to a truly collaborative effort. Marriage is not a one-way street.
This is SO TRUE. And also fully applicable to my situation. What is worse for me was that in my situation there were no obvious issues in the marriage. Up until 1 week before BD we were still holding hands, walking on the beach and kissing each other like a young couple in love. Was this a mask? Fake behaviour? I may not ever know.
If my W had been more clear about her intentions then a lot could have been done. She just tells me "I believe you really don't get it". "You don't understand me". But gives no further explanation as to what it is that I should understand.
Originally Posted By: FastCars
What my W has never done is accept that any of her behaviors contribute to the health of our MR.
Why do our WAW not try? I suspect my W and many others feel they are already good partners in the MR and all the problems are due to their spouses (us). Whereas I feel I have grown and become a better partner, my W has not changed that aspect in these five years.
I remember during reconciliation a conversations with my W and she said a MR should NOT be work -- "it just is". She really believes that a MR is good just because the partners love each other and it shouldn't take any effort. To my W, love can come and go, and you can do nothing about it. If this is the worldview of a WAW, then there is no sense in "trying" because you cannot change love or the MR.
So, I do agree with you that our WAS have not really tried to identify issues in the MR and address them. I believe the reason is they have a very different worldview. Cadet has said "love is a choice", but the WAW doesn't believe it is a choice. To the WAW, it either exists or doesn't exist.
In the WAW's perspective, not having ended the MR sooner and sticking around was 'trying'.
Again so much TRUTH in this post. Totally the same as to what my W thinks. Love exists or it doesn't and the WAW feels the love has gone therefore it can't come back. She does not see love as battery that can be recharged only as a candle that reaches the bottom and can't regrow..
Truthbuster.
Married 4.5, Together 6 M: 36, W: 33, no kids Separation date: 7/8/2017 Bomb dropped: 8/18/2017 Last communication: 1/8/2018 - now nothing OM confirmed - now ended (?)
My STBXW was big into romance novels. I wonder how much of a role that played in her seeing love as a feeling.
Also totally recognisable. My W bases her thoughts of an ideal MR upon what she reads and watches. Hundreds of romantic novels and when she watches Netflix it's always a romantic drama.
When the butterflies are no longer there the "love is gone". Well hello sunshine, people that are several years or decades into a marriage will no longer have butterflies. Love matures and becomes deeper, richer. You will evolve into a person that will do anything for their spouse and love them for who they are, not how they make you feel.
I think a common trend in WAW's is that they want the teenage love feeling to continue into perpetuity which is not a realistic expectation of a grown up marriage.
Truthbuster.
Married 4.5, Together 6 M: 36, W: 33, no kids Separation date: 7/8/2017 Bomb dropped: 8/18/2017 Last communication: 1/8/2018 - now nothing OM confirmed - now ended (?)
