That escalated quickly; WW's A RESUMES(hoosjim#13)

[artista]

Jim, the other part of this is YOU, you need time, YOU need space to reset...

this is pretty much what i meant yesterday when i said hoosjim's "vision" needs to be recalibrated... that way he can see what we see, and not just go by what he is so used to, which is vision impaired by rose-colored glasses...

i am reluctant to believe her reaching out to the Christian friend is genuine... going on my instinct, i think she is still doing her best to pull out all the stops... and i think her short-term goal is to get hoosjim to spend Easter with her and the boys...

[rexgm]

Jim,

I truly believe she hasnt hit rock bottom, because she knows you are still wanting to work on the relationship deep down. she is trying to manipulate you and the situation. To be honest from everything you wrote, you still want to work on the relationship deep down, so you have not completely detached. Remember actions speak louder than words and it is way to soon for her to hit rock bottom. You are saying the right things to her and showing some action, but it is still way to soon to see any truthful responses from her.

She needs to realize you are done with her and she needs to feel that loss. This isnt going to happen in a couple of weeks or months. You need to fully detach from her and move on, then once she sees this she might hit rock bottom, and it will take probably months of seeing for her to realize she has truly lost you.

Alot of WW BD because they are tired of not seeing any changes in their H and decide to either leave or have an affair. Whats the first thing LBS do, we cry, weep, beg that we will change. After a few weeks of change and even months most go back to the wife and say see i have changed and state what they have done to change. What do most of the spouses say... wow you done this for 2 weeks or few months, this isnt good enough you will regress to your old ways, and i need to see a consistent pattern of change.
she is saying telling you a lot right now, and you cant even think about MR... you need to find yourself, and truly let go of her... maybe she will find her way back, but you need to have the thought that she will not do what it takes to get you back, because so far she hasn't.

This question is for sandi and maybe it will shed some light on jim's case... but sandi in your honest opinion, if you didnt find this board, where do you think you and your marriage would be right now?

I truly believe, and you probably dont want to hear this, but for MR to work out between you two she needs to lose you, and find of life without you. once she has overcomes her fears of being alone, and finding her inner happiness only then will she truly know if she wants a marriage with you and put in the effort you require.

I think this is what scares you, because you have no control over this and you just need to let it play out. I believe this scares you because you havent truly detached. once you have truly detached you dont care if she comes back or not, because you realize you will be happy with or without her. Do not confuse this with giving up, this is just saying you dont need her. When you get to this point, you would like the MR to work out, but you dont need it too.

Sorry if this is all over the spectrum, just multitasking...

[joejoe1]

Jim,

How about you cut out Easter all together for now. Artista said when her husband cancelled their home party she knew he was serious he wasn't playing anymore games.

When you wrote about your W checking the phone logs, my W did the same (she still don't know, I know she was checking up on me.). She was doing reverse number lookups on numbers I was calling. Fortunately they were my friends numbers. But guess what, I still caught her talking to the OM after she was doing that.

You have hope and thats good. You are looking for logic, just like me and all the other LBS, but logic is not what's at play here, it's your WW heart. Her heart is filled with illogical things, her emotions are all over the place, until she comes to you with a change heart, I wouldn't go off what any other person is saying. You need to see the changes for yourself and not heresay.

Let the glasses fall off, you are in a fog as well. You are also like me, because you don't want to lose out to this OM, I think you feel defeated and cant figure out why your W choose him over you (she won't have a answer that Will ever satisfy you). You are fixer like me. Stop trying to fix your Sitch and let the process work itself out. You have to be really patient and give yourself time, not your WW, but yourself. Jim can't fix this by himself, but he can dictate the direction of the train. Stop getting on her train, wait until she get on yours.

Seems to me you are talking to a lot of people about your Sitch and W, give the W talk a break, it's on your mind enough, give the conversation about her a little break. IMO, I think your W will be with you for a long time to come, the question is how will she be with you, and to be honest that answer lies with Jim actions starting now.

Who takes the NCAA title home?

[Ginger1]

Rexgem makes a great point. And I think it's one Artista has been making.

If she fights for you even though she truly thinks you moved on and lost you and you were gone (much like artistas H was) then you know it is genuine. Not just guilt or losing her cushy life. If she still wants this marriage to work even though you are DONE, then it might just be genuine.

And really, like coconut said, you are concentrating so much on her, wht she is thinking, how she is acting, and you kind of have been all along, you have neglected how you feel, how you are hurt, what you want and what you need.

You need to take the focus off her and place it on you.

[hoosjim]

Here's how it is:

I mentioned this earlier but it bears repeating. I am great. Scratch that. I am better than great. Maybe, aside from my MR issues, better than I have ever been. Physically, mentally, emotionally, and, most importantly, spiritually-- which underpins and feeds all of the others.

Everyone on here offers thoughtful advice, from their own hearts, and a lot of that advice, consist with what MWD teaches and the DB-ing philosophy espouses focuses on taking care of oneself. That so many on here truly care about the members of this forum is clear from the way they make sure to always emphasize this aspect-- take care of yourself.

Here's the thing: D-B-ing does not have a monopoly on the GAL and self-respect market, and this affects what I offer up and what I seek here. While trust is important to me, I do not trust easily. It's the Yin/Yang of the Wolf. I am also analytical. As a result, I go many places to "Do Me" and to "Get a life" and for support in that regard. Here, however... is the only place that offers D-B-ing. Here, is the only place that offers the unique insights into WW's that is somewhat esoteric even in D-B-ing circles... and here I think particularly of sandi2 and artista. So this is where I come for that. In fact, I come here pretty much looking only for that, so comfortable am I with where and who I am, what I am doing, and where I am going as an individual, as a Dad... and as a companion/lover to whomever that turns out to be. When I come here, I am looking for tips and ideas and insights primarily in the vein of how to save my marriage... to the extent that that is possible.

And yes, I know that "being the best me" is a critical component of that. But you know what? I have done things in the past year, since all of this started, that I never would have thought prior to that I would ever do again. I have run up and down a basketball court for two hours with friends, new and old. I have a physique that I would have killed for in my thirties... maybe even in my late twenties, and in some ways better than ever (I always skipped "leg day" as a youngster... never more ). I have tried so many new things (hello tattoos), moved outside my comfort zone (going alone to new places and meeting new friends), been approached by beautiful women half my age... and resisted temptation like never before, lol. And last of all, I have a renewed and revitalized faith that underpins most of what I do (and yes, Lord, I understand there is ever room for improvement, but I am trying. )

So, even with what has gone down this week, I am better, stronger, and happier than just about ever. Do you think the me from a year ago would have told his W to get out of the house and then completely cut contact? Hell no! Would the me of last year have been out with friends two nights later, enjoying their company and laughing? (and making plans to do so again tonight?) Again, no.

But you folks mostly don't see this. All you see of me is the forays I make onto these forums in search of insight into my WW, or into saving my marriage in general. Is that all I am about. Abso-effing-lutely not. But it is mostly why I am here. I see this site literally as "Divorce Busting", that is, preventing my divorce and saving my marriage. It is primarily and recently pretty much exclusively why I am here... with a strong nod and a big "thank you" to the community and to MWD for starting me down the path of "taking care of me."

So I can understand the repeated posts in that regard and, now, as then, know that I appreciate them. For those of you new to my thread, please know that I am "there" already, and for those veterans on my thread, please rest assured that I am not slipping WRT "myself", and that I am good. And your thoughts, support, and prayers, are always appreciated.

To be continued...

[rexgm]

But you folks mostly don't see this. All you see of me is the forays I make onto these forums in search of insight into my WW, or into saving my marriage in general. Is that all I am about. Abso-effing-lutely not. But it is mostly why I am here. I see this site literally as "Divorce Busting", that is, preventing my divorce and saving my marriage. It is primarily and recently pretty much exclusively why I am here... with a strong nod and a big "thank you" to the community and to MWD for starting me down the path of "taking care of me."

Hoosjim

you are correct we can only respond to what you post, So some of the advice I give will be useless if you are not telling the whole story. As i see it there are only two certain things you can control and that is yourself, and whether or not you want out of the marriage. in my opinion everything else is out of your control.

Sandi, Arista, and a couple of others give advice about WW's. Speaking for me only since i am a man, and I am guilty of it, i read alot of their posts to gain an understanding of the WW's. Which I now see was wrong, because myself I am a fixer and my mindset was how can i fix this WW's thoughts. What i am doing and what i should of done from the beginning was not to try to understand it or make sense of it, but to use it as a map of what to expect to see. They have to fix themselves, and to fix themselves they need to first realize they have a problem. When you stop hearing from your wife, that is when i would say she has made the realization that she has a problem, because she will no longer be focused on you or the marriage but on herself. This is when you will need to give her space to find herself and let her fix her issues.

She may or may not be like this, but once she realizes she can not manipulate you anymore, i wouldnt be surprised if you see her start to blame you or the kids before she has hit rock bottom, or move onto another AP.

[sandi2]

you get a self preservation burst of activity (as we're seeing with mine.

Let me clarify something. I had no burst of activity! Not at any point! I never pusued my H. When my H told me he knew about OM, the first time, he was his sweet, normal, nice-guy self. I shed some tears, said nothing in response, and he told me to delete everything.......which I did. But the OM, somehow, contacted me....... and I took the A deeper under cover........or so I thought.

The second time my H busted me, I saw a side of him I had never witnessed. I left the house that night with intentions of separating. If I went into self-preservation mode....I suppose it was that time, but I quickly got shot down. I went to my mother's, never dreaming he would call and tell her before I could get there! Anyway, I returned to the house, and things rocked on for........I can't remember how long, but the timing was setting me up for the biggest hit of all. I was preparing to leave my H. I even told one of my adult children that I was considering leaving. He was stunned. Looking back, it's hard to believe how stupid I was thinking. I wanted to pull it off, without anyone knowing I had cheated. He went straight to his sister......and she came to me. She revealed how she knew everything, b/c I had left the computer monitor open that showed my communication with OM......and she walked into the room and saw it. (See how careless waywards can become in their A drugged out state)? She tracked my computer history and saw the truth staring back.

Again, I did not immediately end the A. I made no dramatic scenes that your W is currently displaying. There were no overnight changes, b/c I was still contacting the OM! I had found DB, and at that time, we could privately contact board members, so I had a mentor who was a godsend. I finally decided to do what was right.

I understand what Artista is saying about going into self preservation mode. I believe she is correct about your W. But just for the record, I had no "burst" of activity. God knows I could hardly pull myself out of bed on a good day. This is why I question if my posts are read when a spinning LBH asks me about my experience. Did you hear me say it took nearly six months of going through affair withdrawals? There was no burst of "do-good" activity from me! I was not jumping around saying, "Look at what a good girl I am being for you". Six months of hel!, did not motivate me to pretend squat!

Artista has your W's number! Your W has not ended her A. She is barely seeing a taste of consequences for her behavior. Notice how shocked she was when you mentioned D? She is purely reacting out of her emotional state. BTW, withdrawals will last longer than a couple of weeks......but I think I see what you asking.

I did not end my A and immediately go into showing "good works". The only thing I did productive wise, was getting through nearly six months of withdrawals. It took all I had to just get through the day. During those six months, my H probably thought I was not doing anything productive. It was hard on him, too. You might say production was more of what I stopped doing, that was the most beneficial in the beginning (if that makes sense). I stopped the A, stopped doing any suspicious activity, stopped lashing out at my H disrespectfully, etc. It was not b/c I was trying to mislead him. Inside, I felt like a corpse. So it wasn't so much of me producing good works, as it was in ending the bad behavior......especially in connection to the cheating. Frankly, I was not thrilled about anything, and I wasn't trying to do much more than make it through withdrawals.

Here's what I want you to get. I remember someone on the board asking me (before I ended my A) couldn't I commit to my M. It sounded like a death sentence to my ears. I don't remember, to tell you the truth, if I ever said I would commit. It was more like I was resigned to stay with my H. Maybe that was just me, and not all WW's are the same on that point. However, I could admit I was wrong to have an affair........after a board member pinned me down and asked why didn't I just D my H before getting into an A. So, I did admit my wrong doing. I think every WW has to confess it to herself, at least, and take responsibility for it. Your W has referred to messing up, but she hasn't really taken responsibility yet. She wants to use some philosophical b.s. as a passport to behave inappropriately.

Okay, so what about after that. In a couple of weeks, after the adrenaline and shock have worn off, if the WW is still, at that point, "doing work that would otherwise be productive" and maintaining her more respectful/respectable demeanor... what would distingush that (say, in my w's case bwing the obvious implication) from your phase described above where you are "doing the work because you know you should but your heart is not in it." How do you distinguish the deceptive from the genuine-if-not-heartfelt effort. And it can't be the full humble apology, right, because for you that came much later, yes?

I don't know exactly the minute I wanted to start working on my MR. Those desires returned slowly. I just know it came after I worked on my heart. And, it came once I felt remorse and sincerely apologized to my H. I had a lot of stinking thinking to rid. I think some WW's are good actresses, especially when they are great manipulators. The key in determining if your W is being genuine in "productive" actions, is her willingness. How willing is she to do whatever is necessary to save the M? That means, she doesn't get to lay out her terms. Sure, the couple can talk about what each one needs from the other, but she is in no position to make demands or give stipulations. She is the offender, and if she has a sense of entitlement........I would seriously doubt remorse, and her reasons for remaining in the M. I don't suggest you let down your guard until you are fully convinced she is the real deal. Does her actions, her words, and her attitude consistently match? Do they tell you this is a woman who is serious about having a great MR........or does she have "relapses" and flirts with old familiar behaviors from time to time? Another key factor is observing her level of selfishness. As Arista pointed out, it is still all about her. All the dramatic display of emotions has been all about her. As long as her talk and her walk is about her feelings........then i would have trouble believing anything is authentic. Slower, consistent, changes that show her selfishness has been removed, gives more evidence that it is coming from a changed heart........rather than for some manipulative purpose.

I was not putting on an act. I stopped doing hurtful actions. I became transparent. I showed respect. People can treat others respectfully, without feeling in love. After the remorse and I humbly apologized, I was able to move forward more rapidly.......b/c I wanted more than to just exsit in a dead MR. I had read how feelings will follow actions, and it worked for me. I think you have to have the right attitude before it works. I just had to get my mindset healthy, first.

I've actually witnessed people pretending to be humble, and they would do things to score brownie points. However, when it is not the real deal.......it doesn't stick. I'm not saying she'll never have moments she feels tempted to backslide, but staying determined to be faithful and true is an absolute must. Expecting you to accept her as she is.....with her unwillingness to commit to you and behave like a M woman.......is a woman who has a sense of entitlement. It's a woman who expects you to do the changing, instead of herself.

[artista]

From Sandy: I don't know exactly the minute I wanted to start working on my MR. Those desires returned slowly. I just know it came after I worked on my heart. And, it came once I felt remorse and sincerely apologized to my H. I had a lot of stinking thinking to rid.

this is key... as i said a couple of times yesterday, for me, this didn't happen until i finally gave up trying to do the things that i thought would bring my H back... when i sent him that EMAIL... when i freaked out about everyone finding out my pretty little life was a big mess that i caused... that was my first step to finally begin working on the inside... and it was not like i was consciously making those decisions... it's just what followed... when i let go of trying to get back into my M, i was a step closer to getting my broken self "fixed." and that was a long process...

[hoosjim]

...Which brings me to this:

I am not over-focused on my W or on her actions or on what she is doing... or on any of that... in general. On here, however, in these forums, it is pretty much all you are going to hear me talk about... because it is pretty much the only area of my life where things aren't awesome. (The kids could use some work, but even there I am coming around to the mindset that they are great kids...scratch that... great young men... just the best...W and I were actually blessed with the ability to do a pretty good job in that regard and their quirks and struggles and warts are just blips when looking at them in that light.)

Nor am I, at least AFAIAC, over-hopeful or blinded by hope or whatever you want to call it. I told you why I am here. I make no secret of it. It is not to find my own way forward... I've found that already... it is to find clues to help me evaluate the chances that my MR is salvageable, and to give me insights that will help me navigate those waters if and when the time comes.

And, right now, I think I am getting a pretty good handle on that. Not only be being blessed with good intel, and good friends, and a great MC/IC, but also by being blessed with the wealth of insight and support and suggestions offered by you kind folks on these forums. I don't agree with everyone's take on here... who could? But I am Johnny on the spot, here. I have a close-up, birds eye view, and as unemotional view of the sitch as I ever have had and ever possibly could have. Detached? In the sense of being able to see myself happy no matter the outcome, marriage or divorce? Absolutely! In the sense of not caring whether or not I reconcile with my W? Absolutely not! nor will it ever be! Of course I care. EVERYONE who comes here cares about that, in one way or another, and is lying if they say they don't, IMO. But I am serene about my prospects in either event.

Some on here, I think, have emotions too strongly the other way. I have a friend, a very good friend from college who is in my "close circle", who was the victim of a very nasty divorce brought about by a very egregious affair committed by his first W-- the affair actually started before they were even married, during the engagement. She took him to the cleaners, too. He is a great guy. Gregarious, fun, smart, engaging, loyal... VERY loyal. And loyalty is extremely important to him. Especially marital loyalty. So important in fact, that it overshadows his judgment and his view of every single person involved in such a situation, such that the perpetrator of any marital is irretrievably evil, never to be trusted, and deserving of nothing but hatred and ill will... never forgiveness and never reconciliation. I have seen this attitude profoundly affect two other friendships in our group, both afflicted by some degree infidelity. In the one, his voiced anger and vitriol led to the shattering of at least two good friendships, and the straining of two or three others, and also was likely impactful on the failure to reconcile in the one MR. I sense this kind of anger, and intransigence, in some of the posters here. And I get it. Betrayal of this sort can breed strong emotions. I am generally a peaceable Christian dude these days, but I have said in recent days and I meant it that I have never felt closer to being able to take a human life than I did walking out of my broken home Saturday night. I do appreciate the warnings, and I absolutely agree that spouses guilty of infidelity, wayward or not, should have to prove themselves as being something else. But, sometimes, people change. Or they change back to what they were before they "fell." It is in all of us to do this. It is the human condition. I can forgive and accept that and move past that-- not sure all folks can. I know my friend couldn't.

So a few days ago you caught her meeting OM. Caught her red-handed, thus proving she has been LYING to you throughout this so-called recon. She's a lying cheater. She lies to you and everyone else.

AS-- I appreciate your warnings, and they are so noted. You and the others will be glad to know that I am not yet nor do I know if I will ever, even at this point, "let her back in". My intel, sources, and counselors have enlightened me today to a degree that I believe there is hope for her. Just hope. For now that is all, but it is something, and I am not staking my life or my sanity or my well-being or my future happiness on it. Tonight I am going out to drink gin, listen to music, laugh with friends and flirt (as harmlessly as I can) with the cute twenty-something bartenders at the local pub. But be warned: If I do begin the reconciliation process with my W... if she does prove to me that she is trustworthy and if I do "let her back in", I will not tolerate name calling or abuse or disrespect of her from any quarter on these forums or elsewhere. Are we clear?

She probably told that BS story to 10 different people on the periphery hoping at least one of them would "secretly" leak it back to you, thus making it appear more genuine. I think she's controlling and manipulating you to the max right now. And hey, I totally get your desire to believe it's genuine, but from the outside looking in I've got to say that nothing about it sounds genuine to me.

From your seat, that's prolly not a completely unreasonable conclusion. Though, even from the cheap seats, I think its a bit of a stretch. There's about a dozen reasons I could rattle off that that's likely not the case, but I'll leave it at the close up view... and not just the close up view but the objective informed view... argues against that. Fairly strongly. And yet, you'll be glad to hear, I still am not convinced enough to let her in. And, even if I was, I would be waiting, and making her wait. It's still just too damned soon.

Coconut:

Jim, the other part of this is YOU, you need time, YOU need space to reset. A healthy M doesn't start with one person, you both not only need to be pointed in the right direction, you both need to level out first.

Absolutely. As I said, still way too soon. And the IC/MC agrees. We both have work to do. Me moreso on some of the anger and such related to this... particularly my desire to dismember OM and bury him on the south 40... but both of us. But please read and understand my previous post, about me, and where I am. I may not be as "good" as you think I need to be but, trust me, man... I'm still plenty good.

Ginger:

Objectively, genuinity cannot come right away the second one gets caught. That's going to take time. She just realized she can't have it all her way right now. She was busted.

Yup, got this. Don't think it is inconsistent with my current stance, other than syntactically. (I did use the word "genuine" after all.)

Artista:

this is pretty much what i meant yesterday when i said hoosjim's "vision" needs to be recalibrated... that way he can see what we see, and not just go by what he is so used to, which is vision impaired by rose-colored glasses...

i am reluctant to believe her reaching out to the Christian friend is genuine... going on my instinct, i think she is still doing her best to pull out all the stops... and i think her short-term goal is to get hoosjim to spend Easter with her and the boys...

Artista, thanks. I have seen and talked to folks first hand, here. Folks I trust. And learned other things as well. I can hardly process all that I have heard and learned today, and it will take a while. Which while, thankfully, I have! And, I appreciate the caution and, trust me, I am taking it to heart. Amongst other things, I trust this mutual friend... who herself has seen her marriage come back from infidelity (her being the faithful one). I don't know how I can convey that other than to say I know. My W is not "shotgunning" information out there... she wouldn't want a lot of people to know. The fact that she asked this particular girl is encouraging. The types of things she told me W was asking, in between fits of crying, were "What did he (meaning gf's husband) do? Who did he see? Where did he go to get help... What did you(meaning gf) need to see from him to trust him again and how were you ever able to trust him again-- I don't think HJ will ever be able to trust me and I don't know why he should" (and remember, here, that w CANT talk to me because I have repeatedly said "don't talk to me" and MC has said "give him space" and I am hiding both physically and electronically at the moment.

She(W), also appears to trust the MC now. According to the counselor, she has asked her simply... "what do I need to do."

rexgm:

I truly believe she hasnt hit rock bottom, because she knows you are still wanting to work on the relationship deep down. she is trying to manipulate you and the situation.

Nope. She thinks I'm done. Convinced of it. MC has said it, her friend has said it. She's pretty much given up on getting me back.

And whether or not that's "hitting Rock bottom" in the sense sandi2 means it I have no idea... but I don't think it matters. As Sandi2 has said they don't need to actually hit rock bottom... though they do need to "Feel the loss." My IC/MC actually gets this VERY well. She told me today "I have been waiting for her to get to this point. Before now, she never believed truly that she was going to lose you. Now she does. Don't abuse that power, but don't go back to her too quickly, either. Take your time. You need to feel safe and you need to know she's genuine. I can help you with that and help you with setting appropriate boundaries."

joejoe: (It always reminds me of football when you post, my son's HS team QB was "joejoe". Kid had CRAZY legs.)

Let the glasses fall off, you are in a fog as well. You are also like me, because you don't want to lose out to this OM, I think you feel defeated and cant figure out why your W choose him over you (she won't have a answer that Will ever satisfy you). You are fixer like me. Stop trying to fix your Sitch and let the process work itself out. You have to be really patient and give yourself time, not your WW, but yourself. Jim can't fix this by himself, but he can dictate the direction of the train. Stop getting on her train, wait until she get on yours.

Nope. No fog. Seeing clear as day. Or at least as clearly as I can under the circumstances. Right now I have more data, more intel, more input than... Idunno, maybe anyone in this sitch. I am certain. I also have a deep and abiding faith in my Lord. Not necessarily that my MR will be restored (although it will if that is HIS will), but that things will be okay for me either way, and that I am proceeding as best as my broken human perspective allows on the path He intends for me.) Patience? Check. Got that. The IC has me on a leash. We're good for now.

Ginger:

If she fights for you even though she truly thinks you moved on and lost you and you were gone (much like artistas H was) then you know it is genuine. Not just guilt or losing her cushy life. If she still wants this marriage to work even though you are DONE, then it might just be genuine.

And this is really the crux of it. And this is what we don't yet know. She has said some things to others that give me reason for hope. She has backed off hounding me the past two days. She is, by all accounts, a despairing, emotional wreck. She truly thinks I am gone. The question, now, is how hard she will work to get me back, and that remains to be seen. She has asked some of the right questions, said some of the right things (Asked MC if she thought she should quit her job since I was clearly uncomfortable with some of the dynamic there-- and she LOVES, absolutely loves her job.)

Look y'all... I am not head over heels here. I am not bought in. I'm not sure if, even if EVERYTHING I have relayed above turns out to be true... AND MORE... that I could still do this. She has been fickle in the past. Unfaithful in the past. There are still a lot of questions. I don't know what reconciliation with her would look like right now. Im not even sure I know what talking with her would look like right now... But MC has asked me to think about it, and I am. Not as a precursor to MC right now... we are in IC for a while, yet, she says. But she thinks all hope is not lost... and I don't see any harm in acknowledging that.

The above, and my previous, is my "litigative stance", my "procedural posture" as we lawyers like to say. My mind is made up, and I am resolute, at least on that general framework, though not on specifics or indeed, at this point, even on direction

And to not get me wrong... I love you all, I appreciate all your contributions. The "hardliners" are not too "hard"... they are where they need to be for who they are, and the "softliners" (is that even a word?) are not too soft (and im looking at you, too, here, Sandi-- you have done great for me and been invaluable straight along, and I will continue to say that even if my wife breaks into my hotel tonight and fills me full of shotgun holes. Okay, maybe I wont say it, but i'll think it from the great beyond...) The wealth and variance of opinions and views on here has helped me more than I can described, and I have been blessed to learn so many good lessons and from so many different quarters. This balance, this... flexibility... and my faith, are what's going to get me "There". Wherever "there" ends up being.

Thanks again y'all.

[artista]

hear, hear, hoosjim!

i try to respond to the bits and pieces that i think i can shed some light upon...

i have not taken the time to say that i think you are doing well, but i do think you are--overall... you are in a dire situation, and i do think you have handled things well... there is no such thing as perfection in these situations... i know that before your BD on Saturday, i had been tough on you because i saw you as giving too much credit to your wife, who i did not believe was committed to piecing... i really wanted you to see it... but now that you have seen it, i think you are doing great, hoosjim... you are open to advice, and you are vulnerable enough to seek it... and i happen to appreciate your sense of humor...

adelante...

--artista