I have just joined the community after reading through many of the threads and getting familiar with the concepts of DBing, specifically the 180s.
Here is the story of what is happening in my world. I will start with some background.
I have been with my H for almost 10 years. After 5 1/2 years of dating, we have been married for 3 1/2.
H has a son from a previous relationship. He was 4 when we started seeing each other. It has been a rough road learning how to be a stepmother but we've managed to get to a decent spot and I have always been thankful that H has been so patient with me (I know it was hard for both of us to adjust). At the same time, there have certainly been ongoing struggles with our different parenting styles.
H has always been very introverted. I consider myself one as well. We don't go out a lot and were always content just being in the same room together even if we weren't necessarily chatting. He used to tell me he felt more comfortable and vulnerable with me than anyone else. That being said, I noticed over the years that he is also very conflict avoidant. He suppresses his feelings and for most of our relationship he has almost never been the one to start a conversation about something he was unhappy about. I would usually get frustrated knowing something was wrong or if one of us was unhappy and be the initiator of these conversations. He also tends to get frustrated very easily if such conversations last longer than he thinks they need to, which in some cases is not long at all.
He is a chronic procrastinator although I also see this as some form of avoidance, because it happens even with things that I think most people would see as fairly important.
I have always handled all the finances in terms of paying bills and we never merged bank accounts, so he usually just gives me a certain amount each month for bills and then we just sort of alternate paying for groceries, dinners out, etc. Any time something logistically needs to be done in the household, like calling to renew a cable package, I do it. I am pretty much the life coordinator for us.
I did explain to him at one point how I get stressed being the only one who has to manage and plan things. Whether it's our finances, our wedding, vacations - he is 90% hands off. He said he prefers that I do these things simply because I'm better at it, but offered to take a few things if I wanted him to. I felt like it was just him appeasing me so we never arranged anything different. I have asked him to take the lead on setting a time for us to meet on any issues, whether budget or just things we want to talk about between us so things wouldn't fester, and it never happened. I did not continue to point this out or "nag" about it... I know part of this is probably my fault for not setting a boundary or realizing I needed/wanted one earlier in the relationship. ----------------------------- At any rate, we have been trucking along in life and dealing with the bumps as we go, and I am not naive about the fact that there have certainly been ongoing issues that don't improve much. Recognizing that we don't "hear" each other well in our style of communication, I've suggested things along the way like couple's counseling (something we did before we got married, which surprisingly at the time he acted like he would do again) but he has never had any continued interest in that - even when I reminded him that he seemed to like it before.
A little over a year ago he had back surgery, and it went well and didn't debilitate him too much, but he did have to take a rest from work. I think he is a bit of a workaholic, which he has always done to make sure we have the money for the "extra" things we want, which I have always appreciated. But we also frequently talk about how it is good for him to take breaks and we will be okay, and that we NEED that for both him and the family.
FYI, I am the primary breadwinner. I basically make double than what his typical salary has been across various jobs. It doesn't bother me at all and he has certainly played a major role in us meeting financial goals as I have student loans that prevent me from having much wiggle room, so most of what he gets is what becomes our savings and it all evens out in the end, in my opinion. I have always emphasized that if he's unhappy in a job or working too hard, I want him to not stress about being a "provider" so much. We've even joked about him becoming a stay at home husband if we could ever get to that point.
After the surgery he took a new job and the place was TERRIBLE. His previous job wasn't all that great either, and we had hoped this would be a good change. It was a small business but the WORST ownership in the world. He managed the place but was extremely stressed and decided he was going to help the other employees find new jobs since he has a lot of connections in his industry and he felt bad for them.
This is really where I noticed our problems getting serious in the R. He would come home and unload all of the ridiculous things that happened at work. I wasn't mad at him for doing so - I empathized and expressed to him how frustrating it was to have him have to go through it! Admittedly, there were times I tried to give advice which he ended up telling me at one point he didn't want me to do. It hurt my feelings a bit but I understood and tried to do it less so he didn't feel like I was telling him how to do his job. ------------------------ Meanwhile, we started looking for a home. We had been living in an apartment for our whole relationship up to this point. Well, aside from when we very, very first met and he was living in the old home him and his son's mother lived in, which he was really struggling to keep up with on his income alone (and I was still in school at the time) so we ended up walking away and having it foreclosed upon.
We signed a contract and started building, and H said as soon as we closed on the home he hoped to have everyone out of the company and would then leave immediately himself. I fully supported the decision as I knew this was a very bad situation for everyone involved.
During the construction of our home, things just kept getting worse with his job. He was always texting people from work when he wasn't there because everyone was looking to him for so much support. While stressful, I think he really enjoyed this attention...and started comparing it to our relationship. Mind you, the people he managed were typically high school or college age, with this being one of their first jobs, and we obviously the situations you deal with at work are different than the complexity in a marriage.
I fully supported his role as a mentor and leader to these people, but I really started to recognize that he was putting even more attention than usual into work where he was now in a "hero" role than to be at home working on things with me. He got more distant at home and there were absolutely times where I asked him what was wrong. He would always say he was fine and if I were to persist, he would get annoyed and actually TOLD me to stop asking. So I did. Much of his time is spent on his iPad or phone (and this is even the case when his son is around), to the point where I feel like it's an addiction or at least a major major distraction from the real world.
He has also slept on the couch for YEARS. This used to be an intermittent thing that was the result of his back pain, our different sleep schedules, and the fact that he snores loudly which was disruptive to me. I accepted all of these as valid and figured we are just one of those contemporary couples who don't have to sleep in the same bed! I would still request him to sleep in the bed sometimes (with varying success rates) but largely it has been "normal" for so long.
From an intimacy perspective, we haven't had the most amazing sex life but I have always tried to make it happen at least once a week. Admittedly that doesn't always happen and I also expressed to him how as his son gets older, it's a little more awkward being intimate when he is in the house (which is half the time). ------------------------------ I feel most of this came to a head on our anniversary last year, 2017. He planned a nice dinner out, at an expensive restaurant, but spent almost the entire time on his phone because someone from work needed his help. I was appalled and hurt. I didn't say anything at dinner but I was certainly not my normal self, and I think at some point after we got home he asked me what was wrong, noticing my behavior. When I expressed my frustration at what happened, I think he admitted that it was not the right thing to do, but he also got very defensive.
At some point in the conversation he outright said that he thinks people at work know him better than I do, which really hurt me. I made a hurtful comment back (the first time I've really ever done that) and regretted it. After that argument, when we revisited a few days later, he inflated the part of the argument that was my fault and said he thinks about the comment I had made all the time and he can't get past it. I apologized to him multiple times and just tried to let him know where I was coming from, how much what he said had hurt me too and that I was just reacting. It didn't do much but again, we continued on with life although I really started to question where his head was a because he made me feel like I was a completely bad person with no compassion about what I was struggling with.
I did also ask him - in a separate conversation later on - why he was moving forward building a house with me if he felt this way about our relationship. He had said it's not something he is immediately concerned about, that if things are the way they are in 5 years then maybe it will be time to do something... but basically "we'll cross that bridge when we get there." He seemed to downplay it. -------------------------------- So fast forward to a few months ago - we've moved into the house. He quit his job - hallelujah - although he has not found a new one (which again, I'm not rushing him). But he was still acting distant and generally unhappy. One time I ask him what the deal is after he snapped at me for no reason. I had been very aware of my tone and interactions with him and really did not think I did anything wrong. At that time he had a mini-breakdown and said he wasn't sure why he was feeling the way he was feeling. I encouraged him to talk to ANYONE, whether me, a friend, his parents, or a doctor. That was really the extent of that conversation and I made sure to let him know I was there for him and just wanted to support him.
An argument occurs again not long after - over text, which was my mistake - because I couldn't stand his continuing to be distant (and that morning I don't think he kissed me goodbye which NEVER happens). I outright asked if he wants to be with me and expressed my frustration that he doesn't seem to be trying (another mistake in hindsight, as we all know now). He tells me he feels I am not supportive enough, I am too negative, I give the impression that nobody can do anything right, etc. We go back and forth a little and I point out to him that he has told me outright to stop asking him what's wrong. His response? I should have just known to keep asking and insist upon it if I was really concerned. People who really know the other person would know to do that. What?!
I try to ask him what he thinks we can do, basically demanding he tell me something because I don't want him to be unhappy (probably another mistake), until finally he dropped the bomb and said he thought we'd be better apart. I ask if it means that he wants a divorce, and while he beat around the bush a bit more after, he eventually said yes.
He comes home from work and I'm a frickin mess. I start doing the begging and pleading and trying to rationalize why we got to this spot and how I don't see it as something we can't fix. Of course, he was not backing down. He was done, still not agreeable to counseling, still in the belief that if we haven't figured it out by now that it's not possible. Telling me he doesn't feel the love anymore (ILYBNILWY). That night I bawled and hyperventilated in his arms on the couch, asking questions (rhetorical ones in that moment) about what we were going to do with the house and the pets and would I ever see his son again. He said not to think about that right now.
Then, the next few days he continued to run in and out of the home going to different side jobs he had been setting up to keep himself busy, acting almost completely normal, aside from not wearing his wedding ring. I was so confused. Finally on his way to work again one morning I asked if I could tell my mom. He agreed and said he thought I should talk to someone and get out of the house. Then after he left for work, a short time after he texts me and says he "wants to try" and we could talk later. I feel a glimmer of hope, but I still ended up telling my mom, which has been a huge help along this rollercoaster since then (but I don't know if he knows I told her as I never confirmed with him whether I proceeded after his text message).
We talked later that day (which I had to initiate again. I waited as long as I could and it seemed he was just going to let it go). But when we did he just said that he didn't think it was fair to not give me a chance after he saw my reaction - but that he wasn't making any promises because he feels this way for a reason. He sees me trying to do things but it just doesn't give him that same feeling as before or motivate him to work on things anymore.
He also SAID that he wanted us to outline what we would do if it does end up coming to a divorce ultimately, so that our emotions wouldn't get in the way (we both did agree we wouldn't want it to be ugly or fight, and we don't have a whole lot - aside from the house - to split up). But once again, he never sat down to do that or requested we do it, and I never pushed the issue again. I feel overall we did have a level-headed conversation in the moment and felt some hope. He started wearing his ring again. -------------------------------------- Meanwhile I sent a message to the person who married us, who is an old friend of his (they are not super close). I tell him what's going on in confidence and ask for his advice. He tells me to focus on what I can change and improve about myself and just continue to be positive and CHOOSE acts of love even if he doesn't acknowledge, appreciate or reciprocate it.
So I start doing these things and admittedly took it overboard trying to compensate. Predictably, H saw it as fake (obviously I hadn't read any advice on this site yet). Even though it was excessive, it certainly wasn't fake and the things I was doing I HAD done in the past, just not at that frequency. So I still get how it can be seen as a bit "extra". H had asked me why it took him asking for a divorce for me to do these things and while of course I don't see it as having NOT tried before, all I could do was explain that I'm not perfect, that I'm trying to work on myself and I just didn't realize how much he needed me to focus on these things before. I agreed to back off a bit, which is still really confusing/hard because as many others in these forums have shared, I don't want to not do something and then have it held against me. It seems like such a delicate and unforgiving balance that I feel is so unfair to have to try to figure out.
Anyway, I continued being positive and it seemed things were going a little better in terms of our interactions. It was still definitely different - not great hugs and those weird side kisses - but he wasn't avoiding it all together. But after about a month of doing this and feeling so unloved and confused in return, I broke down the other day again in the bathroom. I planned to get it out in private and move on because I knew he would be annoyed by it, but eventually he came in and saw. He stood there and didn't say anything, but he stayed there so I felt like I had to start talking. I said I didn't mean to get upset but it's hard feeling like your husband doesn't want anything to do with you. He continued his story of this being hard for him too and how he hates seeing me like this, etc.
So (to make this regression worse) I ask again what he wants to do because it seems like we're just in limbo not doing anything, and we should either be going our separate ways or working on it, OR if he's not sure to at least be taking steps to figure it out, not just living our lives in this weird space (I know I was trying to be rational which I've learned does not work here). He reiterated that he doesn't trust how long any changed behavior would last (all the while I'm restraining my feelings about how the hell I can ever trust someone in a marriage again if he proceeds just giving up on it). I say it sounds like he's not sure and he then emphasizes he IS sure, and thought he was clear before, that he thinks divorcing would be best.
He made sure to mention that it seems like I keep hinging on little things he's saying to give me hope - which is partly accurate - but also, dude, you just aren't making sense!!
Finally I said if that's what you want...you will have to do it because I just can't. I'm not the one who wants it. Going back to his tendency to procrastinate and such, I figure if he really goes through the work of getting papers and all that, he must REALLY want it. ------------------------------------ This was just a few days ago. I have been a wreck again since then and after having read more of this stuff I am considering the 180s instead of the "choosing love" route, although as I saw in one of the threads here I don't think it's always black and white and I am starting by experimenting with a blend to see what seems to get positive results or not. I do feel like I need to continue showing compassion and some level of love since, again, he claims that's what was missing before...but I just need to be careful not to "chase" him and be so available overall, or intent on saying "I love you" and such if he's going to maintain he wants a divorce. The "I love you" part and showing no physical affection has been THE HARDEST because I feel like I'm being so cold and just reinforcing that I'm not there for him.
He has stopped wearing his ring as of this last discussion again, which really troubles me. I also notice, again, that he can be completely cheerful and happy-go-lucky after these conversations as if everything is normal, which is so crazy to me.
I do NOT think any OW is involved. Of course I'm not with him 100% of the time but I just feel like if that really was the case, why wouldn't he just abandon me for her? I fully believe there are other issues going on that he is not handling in a productive way. This is not to abdicate responsibility for anything I KNOW I need to do, and am committed to doing, to improve the relationship and myself, but it is just my honest assessment.
Legally, I don't think I can make us be physically apart as me leaving the house would not be a good idea and I don't think asking HIM to leave will be a good choice either in this situation... --------------------------------- I have definitely wondered if he is just riding on the coattails until he feels he is personally in a better situation financially. From a logistics standpoint, I have to say he'd be pretty stupid to give up the stability I bring to his life and even on my worst day I really don't believe I'm such a terrible person or have been that bad in this relationship. He doesn't seem like the kind of person to take advantage, but I don't know. Then again, on some days I wonder if he IS trying to make me mad so that I make the move to file for divorce (which is the one thing in our life together that I will NOT do unless I really am feeling abused or just super unhealthy staying in the situation, because I don't think it's a solution to any of this).
At the end of the day, I am trying not to make any accusations. But I know I also can't take what he says or does at face value. So, as the DB technique suggests, I am trying to get my own life while also finding that balance with H.
It is the hardest, most gut wrenching thing I have ever had to experience, and I have to constantly stop myself from wondering WHY. Why can't he see all the things I've given up in my life to support him? All the stresses I've had to deal with? Why is he being so critical of me, while so easily brushing his faults under the rug or admitting to them but then still making it my problem because "I deserve better"? I can't imagine how this isn't a death sentence for people who have been together for multiple decades and have kids going through this, because I would do anything for this to NOT be happening to me right now. I feel like my entire life up to this point will have been for nothing if we get a divorce, and that I will have to rethink all of my future on top of it.
I will stop here and continue to journal over time because this is already astronomically long...but I hope someone manages to read through it all to help understand my situation and give advice as I try to navigate this.
Thank you for welcoming me to the community.
H:39 W:30 M:4 T:9
05/2018: H says "ILYBNILWY", BD 07/2018: Discovered A, confronted 09/2018: PA + other details emerge; H moved out 12/2018: I filed 03/2019: Divorce finalized
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL). DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
just ugh... your angst surely comes through... and i am sorry about that... i am a former Wayward Wife who is piecing with my H, and we have been piecing a bit over 3 years after a very long physical separation... my advice to you is the same advice i give to any and all LBS... SERIOUSLY detach and GAL... by seriously, i mean you do it wholeheartedly... by wholeheartedly, i mean--no starts and stops and no doing it according to your H behavior... you do it with everything in you--for YOU... i believe this will give you the best chance to save your M...
most LBS cannot do it... it is very difficult... i see that most LBS eventually get around to doing it, but not until it's a bit too late... at that point, they are basically saving themselves... if you can do this in the early stages, i believe your chances of saving your M are greater... and if you do it without regard to how your H reacts--because he will likely react, will not like it, will try to guilt you--you will have a greater chance of him coming back... it will feel very wrong, like you are making things worse--but he has to come to a place where he sees he has lost you... you cannot fake it... you cannot do it until he starts to show signs of coming back, because he will back off just as soon as you think things are good again... and you will go through the cycle again and again--and that lessens the effect of detaching and GAL... he will come to see that it's all a game just to get him back... and you will weaken with each cycle...
Yes, what Artista said. Detachment is key and the sooner the better. I think you know a lot of your behavior was heavy pursuit as when you described it you mentioned not having read DR yet, so I think you probably already know this, but stop the pursuit immediately. Read the book, read Cadet's links. Read Sandi's rules and follow them. Read them every day or even several times a day to remind yourself of how to behave around him.
You mentioned doing a 180 on not showing him love, NO do NOT do that right now. It will just drive him farther away. You can't fix that right now. Detach, get out, GAL, work on yourself, leave him alone. Don't initiate any R talks EVER! Right now you look sad, lonely, desperate and needy to him. Your goal is to turn that around and start looking strong, independent, desirable, valuable. The first will repulse him, the 2nd will attract him back.
Welcome TJT! And as cadet and others say, sorry you are hear. But I have good news:
Nothing you have seen or heard from your H is original. We've all seen the same things, heard the same things, and gone through the same emotions.
First, do as cadet says and read DB/DR. Read all of his links. Do that homework, you will be so much better off for it.
GAL!! So important. There is no way to properly detach without GAL. Continue your 180s.
One word of caution: do nothing or do not stop doing anything just to see "his reaction". WASs are notoriously good at seeing disingenuous actions for what they are.
Do GAL FOR YOU! Do 180s FOR YOU! Do detach FOR YOU!! DBing is more about preparing YOU for what comes next than for trying to change him or his mind. Sometimes it has that side benefit, but make these changes for you, not him.
Also, do not ignore the advice here because "he already feels unsupported" yada yada yada. WASs are notorious for making up reasons for giving up. From reading your sitch you were TOO supportive of him. In fact you were an enabler. Covering him for finances, covering him for bread-winning, covering him for doing 90% of the work in the home and MR (your words). THAT IS ENABLEMENT.
Believe it or not that is the cause of his resentment. It was funny, when I was reading your sitch about him trying to find jobs for his employees I immediately thought, wow he is more worried about them than he is her! And then you had typed the exact same words!! Guess what, you don't need him. He knows that. He needs you. But these employees, he felt (and they felt) needed him. And that gave him purpose. That gave him responsibility. That gave him a sense of being needed. You need to tap into that. You need to quit being his enabler and let him stand on his own two feet.
As I read your sitch I thought, wow, she sounds more like the guy and he sounds more like the girl in this MR. That may be a tad sexist, but I don't care. Men and women are biologically programmed for gender roles. And when those roles get mixed up problems occur. I've seen it dozens of times. You being the breadwinner is a huge red flag, whether we like it or not, that is the way our world was designed. That is why one sex bears the children and the other does not. You cannot defeat biology, no matter how hard many try.
You used the word "contemporary". "Contemporary couples" divorce at a 50% rate. That's for first marriages. Second and third marriages that rate goes up exponentially. Why? Partly because our society has tried to eliminate gender roles. And again, that is fraught with peril for MRs because biology.
So quit enabling him. Let him be a man and stand on his own two feet. And by all means do not question DB techniques because of what he says! WASs RARELY, almost NEVER say the truth. BELIEVE NOTHING HE SAYS. And only half of what he does.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
So sorry to read what you've been going through. It's a shockingly familiar pattern. What is absolutely amazing is that everyone on this site tends to come from very different backgrounds and have very different relationships, but when things start to fall apart the dynamics are entirely predictable and consistent.
The great news about that is that there are thousands of pages written about what has not worked for anyone once this dynamic starts.
The tragic news is that no one believes in the accumulated wisdom because it is counter-intuitive and requires tons of self-discipline. It seems everyone needs to play out the same mistakes over and over again in their own way until they eventually gain enough experience to see and agree upon what they should have done to begin with.
If you step back from this situation and look at it as an impartial observer, you have an H who: -- has historically been conflict avoidant and failed to work through relationship challenges with you -- has shown limited interest in stepping up to give you what you need in this relationship -- has invested more of himself into his relationships with his coworkers than into his family -- has contributed less than a third to the financial well-being of the household
Yet despite all this, he's now calling all the shots in the relationship, making you feel "less than" and undesireable through his disinterested demeanor toward you, and making you jump through an ever-changing series of hoops, not for any near term gratification but just for the possibility of maintaining hope for something to somehow get better at some uncertain future date.
If you step back and look at things from this perspective, what do you think is driving you so hard to try to maintain this relationship, which, according to your own recounting, doesn't seem to have been very fulfilling for YOU for a very long time?
Why do you think you feel this burning, urgent need to bring H back to the table and do all the work in order to save this?
Let me be clear, I'm pro-marriage, and I'm all in favor of helping you set things right, so I'm not asking you these questions to dissuade you from saving your marriage. We can get to that. Before we do, I'd like you to DIG DEEP and question WHY you are motivated to act the way that you're acting right now.
It's really critically important to understand that, because this drive that you're feeling is your #1 worst enemy. Nothing will derail your chances sooner than continuing to follow your inner voice.
So why is your inner voice telling you to do these things when to any third party observer, it looks like HE is the one that should be fighting to get YOU back?
Acc
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
... you do it with everything in you--for YOU... i believe this will give you the best chance to save your M...
most LBS cannot do it... it is very difficult... i see that most LBS eventually get around to doing it, but not until it's a bit too late... at that point, they are basically saving themselves... if you can do this in the early stages, i believe your chances of saving your M are greater... and if you do it without regard to how your H reacts--because he will likely react, will not like it, will try to guilt you--you will have a greater chance of him coming back... it will feel very wrong, like you are making things worse--but he has to come to a place where he sees he has lost you... you cannot fake it...
Thank you artista... this makes sense and I've definitely started to take the mindset of not "reacting" to H, whether good or bad. I'm the only thing I can control after all, as hard as it is. Sometimes it really does feel like a game and I get resentful that I am having to GAL to a degree that I normally wouldn't - not because he would ever prevent me from it before (he has never been controlling or anything like that) but because I'm just more of an introvert and I truly don't care to go out all the time and see friends every day, etc. So even though GALing may be good for me in one sense, it still doesn't feel totally authentic either.
H:39 W:30 M:4 T:9
05/2018: H says "ILYBNILWY", BD 07/2018: Discovered A, confronted 09/2018: PA + other details emerge; H moved out 12/2018: I filed 03/2019: Divorce finalized
I think you know a lot of your behavior was heavy pursuit as when you described it you mentioned not having read DR yet, so I think you probably already know this, but stop the pursuit immediately.
YES. 100% I realize this. I do feel like I caught it early and even at the time I knew it wasn't the right thing to do but was just such an emotional reaction that almost couldn't be stopped...so hoping it didn't do TOO much damage and being really mindful to control myself or find another outlet if I'm feeling that way again...
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
You mentioned doing a 180 on not showing him love, NO do NOT do that right now. It will just drive him farther away. You can't fix that right now. Detach, get out, GAL, work on yourself, leave him alone. Don't initiate any R talks EVER!
That's reassuring, and what I feel most comfortable/confident with doing when I step back and think about it. Definitely avoiding any R talks, although that has posed a challenge for me in how I can set certain boundaries (like with intimacy...) if I don't want to bring up, for example, that sometimes it's confusing when he wants to be intimate given the situation at hand (and the fact that there are little to no other displays of affection aside from that).
Instead I have just repositioned in my head that he doesn't see sex the same way right now, and that the expectation in this moment is sex being more of a primal need, I guess, vs. other displays of affection that I might desperately want.
Of course, as Steve has pointed out, I then ask myself if that's just enabling him to continue being flippant without "consequences", but I have a hard time "witholding" it especially while we're just in limbo and he doesn't seem to be taking any other actions on what he's said in terms of physically separating. Taking it as the gift of time as I've heard folks mention multiple times on these threads, and also trying to ignore any assumptions about his intent (like him just being an a$$ and taking advantage) since we can seemingly never know what's really going on. At the end of it all I figure that's something HE would have to live with, knowing he did that to me without ever intending to stay (if it ends up that way).
H:39 W:30 M:4 T:9
05/2018: H says "ILYBNILWY", BD 07/2018: Discovered A, confronted 09/2018: PA + other details emerge; H moved out 12/2018: I filed 03/2019: Divorce finalized
Steve, I really appreciate your post... I'm not even going to quote it because I have so much to respond to in it, lol. But thank you for the welcome and for relating, first and foremost.
I totally get what you mean about not doing things just to see his reaction. What I meant by that was not necessarily experimenting on things I wouldn't normally do, but doing things as I feel natural and seeing if they are helping or hurting, and if they are not helping, to find some other way to approach it. I don't know if that makes sense.
I believe you have a point about enabling, and that is the hardest thing for me to make sense of for myself because it's like there's this fine line between being supportive and positive through anything and figuring out when you absolutely must push back on someone.
To address some of the points Accuracy made, I've spent a long time thinking about why I haven't been more definitive in drawing a line on some his behaviors. I am NOT a person afraid of conflict or to speak my mind. But over time I think I've learned that because it doesn't really "work" to point out even specific examples of things that bother me or that i don't like, I have had a choice to make each time and ask myself if a particular issue is something I really want to push on, knowing it won't motivate him to change, or would I be okay letting it go?
More often than not my answer to myself has been that while it would definitely be IDEAL to have him be more receptive to changing certain things, I've never thought the overall relationship was terrible or without any other good things between us, so I'd rather keep the relationship alive rather than try to push someone to change to an extent where they would think I'm so unhappy or to where they would get fed up with the "nagging" and leave. Admittedly this results in some of my needs not being met, but I can't always meet all of his needs either (taking the perspective of neither of us being perfect).
I get that it's more the principle of these things and how he's less willing to work with me to make changes, or being less concerned about how I feel than it seems he should. I will say that HAS been the one thing that has bothered me, that even if he can't understand where I'm coming from or why something is important to me, he hasn't really ever been the type of person to try and find out. It's like this just "are what they are" with him.
In situations like that where I try to point out that it seems like he doesn't care when he doesn't do X thing, he has (of course) just gotten defensive and says that he does try and I just must not be paying attention or seeing it. So then of course who am I to say he's not trying? I just start questioning if maybe I have been a little absent minded lately or if maybe my expectations or standards are too high (generally speaking this tends to be the case with me, but I am also very self aware, so maybe I have been overcompensating in this area to the other extreme...)
It's just hard to enforce something when you know the other person is going to interpret it different than our own reality, and you can't change how they see it, and overall you believe they're still a good person, with no bad intent, and they do other things to show they care about you and the world is not on fire. While many things suck, I feel like you're human and I still love you and as long as I believe you still love me, we'll keep going and keep learning (I would hope) and hopefully get better over time, even if it's a long time. Because someone else will probably have something I don't like and that I can't change too.
But, clearly, the "you love me" part seems to have changed, since the love isn't being "felt" on that side anymore..which, yeah, I know means I need to make some changes too. For the record, there have definitely been times where I just say you know, he doesn't seem to realize what he has and should be fighting harder if he really did care about it.
Back to Steve's point, this whole gender role thing I think is key too, and something I will have to try to adjust for. I am a very strong woman and given my career success I know that it can't be easy for him, no matter how much he seems to be supportive and okay with it on the face of things. And while it won't be easy for ME to be more "submissive" or less of a provider than I know I am, that's one of those needs I know I need to do better in trying fulfill for him, now that you put it that way. The whole "letting him feel like he can stand on his own two feet" was a really helpful perspective, especially in making me feel better about detaching, so thank you for that.
I have more to say and update you all on but I am going to try to take a break for lunch and then this afternoon I am GAL with a friend, who I just let in on my sitch recently...so I'll be back. But again, thank you all for your thoughtful responses and reading!!
H:39 W:30 M:4 T:9
05/2018: H says "ILYBNILWY", BD 07/2018: Discovered A, confronted 09/2018: PA + other details emerge; H moved out 12/2018: I filed 03/2019: Divorce finalized
