Quotes Found on DivorceBusting Forums (5)

[Ready2Change]

Quotes found on Divorcebusting (1)
Quotes found on Divorcebusting (2)
Quotes found on Divorcebusting (3)
Quotes found on Divorcebusting (4)

The forums on Divorce Busting are filled with so much great information. As I read through the posts, I like to grab the nuggets of gold and share. I like to go back and reread the posts to refresh my memory as well.

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I often see people in your position give things up in a separation, ranging from kids, money, to the house, to try to somehow placate their wayward spouse in the hopes that this will avoid making them mad or make them want to come back. This never, ever works and is in fact the worst thing you can do for any outcome. If you get divorced, then you have given up everything to your WW for nothing and you will forever regret ever doing so. But it also makes reconciliation less likely - I have never, ever seen a WW want to come back after "winning" the divorce. They only ever seem to want to come back when they have no money, are losing the kids, cant find a good husband prospect and suddenly realize you are the best available option.

The most 'successful' mindset I have seen for someone in your position is to give up any notion that you can control whether you divorce or reconcile. Being married is a consensus decision and you cant control their decisions. But you can control yourself and that is really what will determine how happy you will be either way. And luckily the actions you need to take are exactly the same - just take care of yourself and put yourself in the position of maximum strength, for yourself and for your kid.

Keep detailed, daily documentation of time and activities with your kid. Do everything you can to wiggle yourself into more time with them while WW is in la la land with OM. Make sure to call or facetime every single day. Document if your WW blocks your communication. You should have an entry every single day, starting today.

2. Get a more consultations with the top attorneys in your area in order to get a wider range of advice on how filing under adultery could work, but also doing so prevents your WW from hiring them.

Correct, do you want the top attorneys trying to take your kids away from you?

get right of first refusal.

4. Gather admissible evidence of adultery. You can hire a service to do electronic forensics to find proof on your jointly owned electronics and accounts. Or a PI to document what she is doing now. Look for even circumstantial evidence of alcohol, drugs (including prescriptions), DUI, leaving your kid alone or leaving your kids with OM. Hire a PI to run some background checks on OM. They can find things you can't. Have all of this in your back pocket for when the time is right.
5. Stick to your plan. Do the 180. No conversations without documentation. Accept that nothing you say can influence her in any way, and assume every single thing you say, text or email to her will be used against you and read out loud in court. Dont negotiate on anything you arent willing to lose. You can negotiate over the candle sticks. But custody and any other untouchables are stipulated in the filing and she can go talk to your lawyer about those things.
6. Take care of yourself, force yourself to get out and meet people, start an outdoor or physical hobby, eat super healthy and hit the weights hard. Slowly but surely you will feel (and look) much, much better, and situations always have a way of improving when your mental outlook improves.

[Ready2Change]

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You can't nice him back. It's a common mistake those that are dealing with waywards make. Waywards are the epitome of selfishness. They will take and take. And as long as you keep giving they will take.

You can stay on the path you're in until he solidifies his plan A. Or you can refuse to sit around and wait and be his plan B. That's what your are right now, his fallback. His safety net. Time to remove the safety net.

[Ready2Change]

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Don't try to predict the future here either. I know you want that crystal ball that tells you everything is going to work out but no one knows.

[Ready2Change]

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DBing is more about NOT doing thing that make it less likely for the WAS to come back to the MR, than it is about doing things to make the WAS want to come back. This is why we say while DBing doesn't ensure reconciling, it improves your chances of eventually getting there.

[Ready2Change]

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This forum is invaluable.I wouldn't be where I am today without finding this and getting advice, other perspectives, but most of the all blunt 2x4s. DO NOT SHY AWAY FROM THE 2x4s! The posters that struggle the most are the ones that are overly sensitive to be told what they are doing wrong.

[Ready2Change]

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Standing your ground is never a mistake, if he can't respect you for standing your ground and being who you are, he never respected you in the first place.

[Ready2Change]

Link to Original thread

LBSs struggle because they CAN'T control and CAN'T change their spouse. Your goal isn't to control or change him because YOU CANNOT do that. Your goal is to show him that his decisions have consequences, and the consequences of having an OW are that he doesn't get his family. This is tough, the LBS' instincts are that by being loving and nice they can "win" back the WAS. But this hardly ever works. In fact, if it did, the divorce rate would plummet because almost all LBS go that route.

Waywards especially need tough love. sandi talks about this, that a sense of loss is the only thing that can wake them up from their fog. Doing whatever he wants but still having you on the hook means he doesn't have to change anything. Doing whatever he wants and potentially losing you is the only thing that can make him want to change what he is doing.

[Ready2Change]

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I think I read and reread everything you guys write to me and I do take it all in, and I try to follow it all, but this is the only place for me to really vent so I just continue venting all these fears I have because I have no other outlet....What I am showing him and what I am typing here are 2 different things. I am showing him upbeat, happiness, okay me. Doing things, keeping busy. On here I am falling apart, in the car I am melting down, in the shower, at night alone I am yelling into a pillow. But to his face I am not doing that. He was crying yesterday and I paid it no mind. When he left I didnt reach out to ask why. He eventually contacted me about it. I am trying to fake it to him, detachment, as I am trying to really accomplish it somehow in real life and not sure how.

[Ready2Change]

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Most of all, make it about your child. Give her lots of extra attention and focus on ways to ensure that she feels safe and protected. The kids are the real victims of all of this. And being there for you child is gonna make it all worthwhile. You will realize your worth and importance through the eyes of your child. Dont depend on anyone else to give you that sense of worth.

[Ready2Change]

Link to original quote

I wish I could tell you something to make it better. I can tell you it will get better (it does) and that you may even have a better life than you did before (you will) and that you are going to come out of this stronger and a better person (you will). But when you're in so much pain, and confused, and spinning the words really don't help. I know they don't, because I was right where you are and people told me these things and they didn't help at all. But what I can tell you is this- don't worry about making it a month or a week, just focus on today. Get through today. And if that's too much then get through the next hour. If you feel like you can't do it for you then do it for your kids, because they need you now more than ever. Let tomorrow worry about itself, your only concern is today. Make that your focus.

If you start having suicidal thoughts then go to the doctor and get evaluated for situational depression. Many of us had to go on anti-depressants and it does help even if just taken temporarily (I was on them around 3 months). In my case I thought I was handling things well but then months after BD I suddenly crashed hard. I felt like a hollow shell, like my soul or essence was gone. It took A/D's about a week to start working but once they kicked in I quickly got back to feeling like my old, normal pre-BD self.

[Ready2Change]

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Truth dart:

I calmly told her that that is something a husband would do, and since she doesn't want me to be her husband any longer i wont be doing that.

[Ready2Change]

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When you are detached and she gives you crumbs of affection, then you will accept them WITHOUT EXPECTATIONS. The problem wasn't that you accepted her affection, or even returned it, it was that you thought it meant R or moving toward R.

NO EXPECTATIONS.

[Ready2Change]

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.....I've been dealing with this by repeating to myself in my head (and sometimes under my breath) "180! 180! 180!". This technique has helped me when I feel that I am about go back on one of the my positive changes since BD. I also try to always keep sandi rule #37 in mind! "37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes"

[Ready2Change]

From here

Amoafwl said something that I really need to latch onto in order to detach emotionally (emphasis mine):

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Trust me....you are not going be happily reconciled with everything figured out in one month. Think about where you are right now....you are competing with some other married man for the affections of YOUR WIFE. To me, that isn't someone I would want to be in a relationship with. I want someone that wants me....I don't want someone that could be tempted by some other person wandering in and out of her life.

[Ready2Change]

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Things sound like they are going well enough but I still think you need to pull back a bit and give her time and space. Don't assume everything is "back to normal", a lot of potential recons have been derailed because the LBS fell back into the same old habits after the WAS gave them another chance. You're on probation right now!

[Ready2Change]

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It is always okay to say "Divorce is not what I want. But it isn't up to me. It takes two to make a marriage, but only takes one to make a D."

[Ready2Change]

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THIS IS GREAT:

It is clear that you do not value my request for time to look at my schedule and see what works, nor do you value my feelings on the entire matter. I believe you are acting solely out of anger. I understand that you are angry at my passive behavior during our marriage, and have expressed my regret and have taken ownership for this many times. Despite this, you accuse me of trying to control you, which is completely false. I have respected your requests for distance and time, yet you have not respected mine at all. You continually make demands of my time and resources, and when I state that I have a need for time to consider your request, you demand that I act on your terms, and when I politely express my need for time to gather information you blame me for trying to control you and then change course without notice, which is absolutely disrespectful. You have not even once apologized to me for putting S and I through this process, showing that you respect neither my nor S's feelings. Furthermore, you have entered multiple A with multiple OM with no regard for my feelings at all, and also without regard for S's safety. So I will look over the information you have sent me when I have the opportunity and I will reach out to you when I have made a decision......

My plans are my business, and you do not need to make assumptions about them. I have respected your privacy, yet you still have actively spied on my social media posts. My plans do not require your approval, and my sched no longer revolves around you. As I have said, I'll consider the information you have sent me when I have time, and I will let you know when I have made a decision......

Furthermore, I asked if the call was about S. You lied to me because you knew I would call you if it was. The call had nothing to do with him. It is clear that you have no respect for me, and that you chose to lie to me in order to manipulate me. That is insanely disrespectful to both S and I. You have shown that you are willing to use him to get to me. You clearly have no respect for him if you are willing to use him like that......



M - S didn't request or initiate the D. Nor did I. This action is solely yours. Moving his bed wouldn't have been an issue had you not initiated this. You say you were trying to arrange a time, and when I said I would let you know what works for me, you became disrespectful and accused me of being controlling. That's not "arranging". It's demanding and manipulating. S would have no need to adjust had you not initiated this.......


M - I believe you are a caring mother, however your actions speak otherwise. What I choose to believe is personal to me. Unfortunately your actions indicate that you do not think about your actions beyond how they make you feel. My feelings have no bearing on facts. Allowing S to spend the night in a house full of venomous snakes shows poor judgment. As does letting him ride with a person with a DWI conviction. You demonstrate that you don't respect his well-being, nor my feelings. How I use my time is my business. I have stated that I would review the info. Please respect my request for time to process it......

W - Get back to me when you can.

M - *crickets*


====================

The manipulation attempts are deafening. LOL.

I don't plan to give her a response to when I want to mediate any time soon. Because I don't want a D. I'm not going to undo my plans just to make time for her to move stuff back based on her demands (even if she can only get help for about two hours Saturday afternoon, and no, she can't move it in when I'm not there...I want to make sure who is at my apartment).

The more advice I can get in a short time is going to help a lot. This is starting to ramp up, and I can already tell I'm in for a battle.

I said a lot. But I also stood firm. And I know that I said some stuff that made her feel less than thrilled. But I DO NOT want a D, and I DO NOT plan to help her. I don't understand the rush. Probably just to get it over with so she can feel honest when she says she's single.

That's not my game, and I'm not playing.

[Ready2Change]

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You detach when you start seeing him for who he is. You keep mentioning the OW. LBS always focus too much on the AP. She doesn't matter. Your problem is not with her as much as you think it is. It is with him. If it wasn't her it would be someone else.

The problem you have is that you aren't seeing him for who he is, but who he was. You are seeing an ideal of him, not the him that would cheat, and lie, and use spending time with your D to get a better deal on child support. You are holding on so tight to the vestige of who he used to be, that you can't see that the person he has become is not desirable.

You are stuck in your own fantasy just like him. Your fantasy is that he is who you married. He isn't. That person is gone and in his place is a conniving, lying, cheating, scumbag who isn't worth to lick your shoes.

How do you detach? You realize your own value. You take back your own power. You realize that he isn't worthy. And then you treat him like the cashier at the store. You are kind and polite, but detached. If that means falling out of love with him then so be it! Sometimes that is what it takes to move on....until you are willing to accept everything I just said, are ready to move forward with or with out him, and are ready to be okay no matter what, then you will be paralyzed in fear.

Are you in IC? I highly suggest you get into it if you aren't.

[Ready2Change]

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You cannot worry, think, contemplate, mind read, or anything of the sort on what your H is thinking or doing right now. He may be just fine when he leaves, or he may be just miserable as well. Who knows, and I've read this a few times and I have been told this many times on here:

It does not matter!

The longer you dwell on him, the longer this will take. You concentrate on you and your new baby! Be the BEST you can be. Your H sees nothing but happiness and you at your best. Keep doing your GAL, this is good because it keeps your mind off of your situation. If you read through mine, you can see I was dwelling on everything that was happening, everything that might/could happen and there were those imaginary things in my head that were happening only in my head that I was worried about. You know what it changed: Absolutely Nothing!

[Ready2Change]

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An Old Cherokee Tale of Two Wolves:

One evening an old Cherokee Indian told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people. He said, ‘My son, the battle is between two ‘wolves’ inside us all.

One is Evil. It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.

The other is good. It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.’

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather: ‘Which wolf wins?’ The old Cherokee simply replied, ‘The one you feed.’




The crucial question is “Which are you feeding today”?

[Ready2Change]

The Bridge

[Ready2Change]

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But knowledge is power. One of the best things I did in my sitch was talk to a lawyer. It did several things:

1) Gave me the knowledge I needed for what to expect, and what the process would be. With kids involved there is no such thing as a quick D. It is a long, drawn out process. He'll have to be fully engaged all along the way. Finding this out made me realize that she likely wouldn't follow through on any of that. Your H sounds very similar to my W in that regard.

2) It helped me get over the D stigma. Actually discussing it with the L gave me a sense of power and control. I couldn't stop her from Ding me, but I also didn't have to be a innocent bystander in it either. The L asked questions and set the expectations about how the EAs affected her case. Etc.

3) It hit her with a dose of reality! When I told her a couple of weeks later that I had talked to a lawyer, I saw her confidence just sag. She realized that this was not going to be painless, and she wasn't going to get off scot-free. Lots of her dirty laundry would come out (waywardness, EAs, business/financial problems, etc). Your H has a lot to worry about there as well, so once he finds out you talked to L he'll realize that the D is going to expose his warts. And he'll also realize that his hopes of getting 50/50 custody will be slim (he left the home, he spends copious times at the local bar, etc).

4) It made her realize that I was going to be okay, no matter what. WASs bank on the fact that the LBS wants to avoid D so bad that they will agree to almost anything as concessions to "play nice". Talking to a lawyer wakes them up to the fact that you have a backbone! And that while you still don't want a D, you will do what is necessary to be okay post the D.

Do not overlook the power of 1-4. It is profound. EVERY LBS that has been threatened with D should speak to a lawyer EARLY in their sitch. It alone can help turn your sitch around.

[Ready2Change]

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Sorry, but promises went out the window with OW. And be sure to mention that to him when he inevitably gets angry when he finds out you talked to a lawyer.

"We promised to keep lawyers out of this!"

"Yes, and we also took vows to forsake all others. I guess YOU get to pick and choose which promises we should adhere to?"

[Ready2Change]

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.... if a friend of mine was going through this I would tell her "success is the best revenge". Be confident, make him miss you, don't be available for him.....

[Ready2Change]

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ask yourself...how toxic do you feel your R was before bomb drop? Was everything blissful and happy then just all of a sudden BOOM?....As hard as it will be, look at yourself and your contribution to the sitch. Learn from it.

And very important...DO NOT MAKE ANY DECISION OR SAY ANYTHING WHEN YOU ARE EMOTIONAL!!! Such things NEVER end up good.

[Grace21]

Love this post! Thanks.

[BluWave]

A post written by joejoe1, who last I heard, was still piecing after his W returned to the M.

Feeding the GOOD WOLF is a concept that helped save me and my M. I started feeding myself with only positive things. If I turned on the news and it was negative I turned the channel. If I was listening to the radio and a negative song came on I found a uplifting and positive song. I listened to a lot of gospel.

I start going to church. I found a church that made me feel good to attend the people were very inviting and offered me a lot of opportunities to do things in the church I took them up on their offer. (While was at the church my W thought I was with someone else. On 3 nights out the week.) I would get dressed up nice and put on some smell good, say bye and say I will see you later ( I also asked if she had anything going on, I didnt want to be a A hole). I never told her where I was going, but I was always was pleasant with my interactions with her. Always feeding the positive, optimistic side of of life.

I have thrived and lived off of pessimism, so training myself to have an optimistic outlook during such a low point in my life was hard as hell. But I had to do it for myslef and boys. I was tired of living in the the misery.

I started and ended everyday reflecting on the good things about that day.

At the start it felt kind of fake, but after a while it became my mantra. I was living with a positive attitude. I would smile at every person I could, even my WW (its hards not to smile at someone that's smiling at you). When I went to public places and was in the check out lines, I would read the name tags of every person I interacted with, and when they finished I thanked them for their service.

I told everyone bye, hi, good morning, afternoon, evening and day, even my WW. I refused to leave my M and my W having the last memories of being an angry and a negative person.

I still never talk about the M, R, or said ILY. I stuck to Sandi Rules, and I detached with love the way AS preaches.

I start going about my life doing things I always wanted to do. I start meeting new people, they were uplifting. Like, one day I did a meetup.com hike. And while on the hike, I started talking to the guy who made the meet up. Come to find out he was a pastor at one of the biggest churches in my city. We ended up talking for a while at the end of the hike and he gave me comfort and great advice.

I started to open myself to the world and I stop looking at all the wrongs with my life and startes thanking GOD for all the good.(what a transformation for a man like me.)

I listened to videos on YouTube about optimistic and positive outlooks.

All these changes, a compilation of changes, I also 180ed a lot of my old bad habits, made my W curious and she wanted to see if they were for real, and they were, I stop making changes for her and did them for myself.

It took time and patients.

[Ready2Change]

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If it were me giving myself advice in your sitch. This is what I would suggest.

1) Find someone else to take care of the task that your H has repeatedly failed to do in a timely manner.
2) Get a consultation with an attorney to know exactly what you are up against from a legal standpoint.
3) Stick to a schedule for your D and limit your convos with your H to only your D.
4) During the exchanging of your D, have someone else in your place to be present. This will help limit your interactions with your H.
5) Consistently see your IC, which I am happy that you have an appointment today.
6) Fill your calendar with GAL activities.

I realize this is a tall task, but the inconsistencies in your interactions are causing your emotions to be all over the place. This will help you detach and be consistent.

[Ready2Change]

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His choice is you or not you. Your choice is to be happy no matter what, or to be miserable one way or the other.

PS: Burned, anyone can add good quotes here.

[Ready2Change]

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Do you really want to be married to someone who lies, cheats and treats you like crap? Someone who openly abandoned your and your baby. No! Absolutely not. It’s hard to see that because many of us hold on to the idea and the fantasy of marriage. I know I did and holding onto that fantasy left me stuck. I should have taken action, but I didn’t. Like you, there was nothing anybody could do that would make me be the one to initiate the divorce. Instead it just prolonged the hurt and games.

Please don’t get me wrong, I’m not advocating for divorce. I’m saying let go of the fantasy. It’s hurting you. The reality is you are currently married to a liar and cheater.

Don’t mean to be gruff. I wish someone drilled that into my skull when I was doing exactly what you are now.

[Twofeet]

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2802149&page=10

"What is best for my kids is best for me"

[Ready2Change]

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...It's about attraction, respect, leadership, confidence, self-respect, boundaries, protecting your wife & family, being decisive, strength, honor, values, and doing the right thing.....

A strong, confident man doesn't reward his wife who is behaving badly. Love has many different sides. A woman is attracted to a man who can make hard, cold decisions if needed because that is not her strength. Leadership is attractive.....

[burned]

That's a great post from Coach. I also like this part:

Boundaries make people feel safe. A plan followed up with action make people have confidence. Standing by doing nothing except waiting for someone else to make a decision causes unrest and fear. Lead.

[Ready2Change]

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Women who are in love don't share themselves with other men. Women leave their fathers and brothers for men who make them feel alive and excited. How do you change how she feels about you?

[Ready2Change]

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...only answer y/n questions, informative texts dont need responses. Only discuss daughter....He is doing wrong, I have every right to set boundaries, and if he has a problem with my boundaries then he can do what he needs to do..... it isnt my job to clean up his messes.

[Ready2Change]

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I am a WAW who came home to my marriage.

I came home when I saw my H taking care of himself for his own sake. I saw him changing his communication style, to include listening, considering my perspectives, partnering with me on ideas, really SEEING me...now THAT'S attractive. And it doesn't hurt anyone. And it doesn't fertilize doubt. It's positive, lasting and HONORABLE.

[burned]

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In the annals of human endeavor, there are only two creatures lower than the one that would mess with another man's wife: 1) The one that currently also has a W of his own and 2) The one who is friends with the other man whose wife he is messing with.

[SteveLW]

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My ex got the same. Enough money to be able to live on her own. Whatever stuff she wanted out the house. The childcare arrangement she proposed etc.

But she missed out on AMOAFWL2.0. And that guy is pretty awesome. So she can enjoy her house on the foundation of sand. Maybe it's great....maybe it isnt....doesnt really matter any more.

YOU are the catch. YOU are the prize.

Shes losing out on that. No matter how much money she gets or whatever, she is missing out on a great guy and trading him in for someone that is willing to cheat on his wife with someone else's wife.

[Ready2Change]

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Your spouse has given you a gift. The gift of opportunity to grow and become the best YOU possible.

[burned]

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Hope vs no hope has been a consistent theme on this board. The bottom line is if that when you have no hope you will file for D. While you have a shred of hope you will continue to DB. If you don't want to file for D then you have to have at least a modicum of hope.

NO HOPE = Giving up and filing
Very little hope = DBing for yourself
Too much hope = DBing for the wrong reasons

[Ready2Change]

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And then as soon as I started pulling away more I got his attention. Once I started saying less, not being as nice, he started wondering what was going on. ... Pull away but be polite... I have to work on it. I’ll practice in the mirror

[burned]

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Here are what your daily goals should be:

1) Did I get through the day without worrying about what she says and does, and without attaching any expectations to your DBing efforts.
2) That no one filed for D (unless this is what you want, and you can always decide to pull the plug at any moment).
3) That you didn't engage in any pressure or pursuit. In word or deed. That you didn't engage her in a R talk. That you didn't snoop. Etc.
4) That the rest of your family's needs were met! (If she isn't willing to meet a need, then step in and do it.)

There are others that others might be able to add, but the point is notice this is all about you. What you can do. What you should do.

[Ready2Change]

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....I woke up and told myself I was going to have a good day.....I had a great day.

I again, spent my day busy, GAL, having lunch with family and hanging out at my brother and sister in laws house.

I made sure to look amazing, and said I had to go.

he sent me a text asking "Are we ready to finalize this"...Another hint of his anger. I responded saying "You’re seeing someone else so clearly you are ready. You should do whatever you need to do."

I told him he can think what he wants.....

I responded "I’m sorry you feel that way. Right now you are seeing someone else. I don’t know what you want from me. I’m co-parenting with you. Finalize whatever you want....."

When I got home I went directly into my room and didn’t go into the living room where he was. He got up and left.

I spoke with my doctor and they prescribed me something to help me with the depression I have been dealing with.

Something I have been telling myself over and over is to really think hard about if I would even want him back if that became an option. It would be very hard to ever trust him again. He would have so much to prove.

These are all things he said to me at BD, and ALL the things that I have worked on and that he has stated he sees I’ve changed

My stance still stands, I love him. I would love to R our M, but I am not doing that while he is seeing someone. And its not at all acceptable that he is! I have a really busy week/weekend ahead so I am hoping that just pushes me through with no backsteps. Feeling ok on this Monday for the first time in a while.

This is DBing!

[Ready2Change]

Link

Do it as a form of self value and self respect, not to get him back!

He has shown zero action, only manipulative words. Let his actions match his words. And for a period of time too.

[Ready2Change]

Link

Many posters struggle with patience, and it causes them to contemplate filing for D when they do not want one.... Doing anything out of impatience (whether it is those contemplating D, or those that are starting to show signs of Ring but want to hurry things along) will not be helpful to your sitch.

[Ready2Change]

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This is a dance, and it is a delicate dance. Pursue and pressure too hard and too fast and she will run the other way quickly. You need to tread lightly. That is where the patience comes in. Maybe you've been friend-zoned, or maybe she is just going very slowly. For lots of reasons. But the lighthouse analogy still stands. You shine the light, she sails towards you. You do not go towards her. The time may come when you do become more aggressive, but you need to take it slow.

[burned]

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Picnic analogy: how to do it wrong.

Your picnic is like this:

"Should I start eating or wait for her? Is she coming? Is that her? No that was a tree limb blowing in the breeze. Maybe she will come from the other direction. No I don't see her over there either. Okay I guess I will eat this sandwich. Boy this sandwich would taste so much better if she was sitting on this blanket next to me. Is that her? Nope, Bummer. I guess I will have to eat these cupcakes without her. Shucks, I brought 2, one for each of us."

Your picnic is centered around her........not you.

[Ready2Change]

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...I started reading, not only the boards here but other things, learning about my situation, and putting a plan into action to save my marriage. I straightened out, GAL, lost 20 lbs, and gave her the space she needed. I know how you feel about maybe this gives the wrong signals and it might push her further away, but it didn't for me. I was friendly, kept contact to a minimum and spoke to her as necessary (we have kids), listened to her when she was willing to talk, didn't push her when she wasn't. At first I had to pretend, it was really hard, I sought some IC which helped me a lot. There were many frustrating days for me. After some time pretending, I started to feel it, I started to realize that I was a worthy person, I forgave myself, tried harder to love myself, and I disconnected emotionally. I knew in my heart I was a better man than her coworker, after 11 years together truly she valued me far more than someone at work, I am the father of her kids. I had to go through a bit of a break down, but I hit a point where I was OK on my own. Suddenly she started to come around, yes it was a bit rocky, but she seemed interested in perhaps saving our marriage. Things are going quite well for us now, rather than simply loving my wife, I am "in love" with her, I love being around her and spending time with her, she's feeling the same towards me and showing it, the EA has ended, I never brought it up with her extensively, I only let he know I was aware after snooping in her phone, she was super mad about that, but for me it was the right thing to do, make her aware that I knew, she brought it up off and on especially when she was pulling back from it, and when she talked about it I never asked questions, pried, accused, was angry, I couldn't change it and I wanted my wife back and it is what it is. So keep your head up, GAL, love yourself, and others will love you. All the best.

[Ready2Change]

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Frankly, now isnt really the time to be using the 5 love languages on her, exactly. Imagine watching your wife make a cup of coffee in the morning for years, and NOW that she has asked for a divorce, you start doing it for her. It doesnt come off as caring, it comes across as fake and just drives her further away. It reminds her of all of the years that you DIDNT help.

Instead, now is a great time to learn about the 5 love languages and practice them with essentially everyone else. Friends, parents, stepson, coworkers, etc. How can you adopt the kind of mindset of showcasing your love for others?

[SteveLW]

Link to original post.

What I want to emphasize is that the date doesnt really mean anything. Because it signifies waiting. I think waiting is such a passive word. It isnt an action. It isnt anything you have control over. It robs you of the power over your own life. I dont think patience is the same thing. It's about letting your life unfold before you without needing to rush . Don't put your life on hold waiting for her to do or say something. Think about it like going to a restaurant - let's say the host says that a table will be ready in 15 minutes. After 15 minutes and no table...then what? "Waiting" would be getting up and checking on the status regularly and sticking it out until eventually you get seated. "Patience" would be reading a book or playing on your phone until you either get seated or decide to go somewhere else.

I think it may be a bad example, but the point is to control what you can. You can keep a guide in your head, but ultimately, youl know when you are done whether its in 2 months, 2 years or 2 decades.]

[SteveLW]

Link to original post.

Read a good quote i related to yesterday.

"My mother died. My spouse cheated, the pain was the same. When she confirmed her infidelity, the person i chose to spend my life with died"

Shes dead. When she swapped her persona when she met om, the woman i knew died. Never to return.

[burned]

link to original post

You're right, it doesn't change overnight. It takes months. And here's how you know things have changed, these things will not even be on your radar:

Will she become the pursuer again? Does she wonder about me? Does she miss me?

Those questions simply won't matter to you. Because the idea here isn't to change her attitude, it's to change YOU.

[Ready2Change]

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I do not want any involvement with him while he is seeing someone else. And thats not me saying "its her or me", thats me saying, "This is what youre choosing to do, therefore, you dont get me in any capacity besides coparenting."

[Ready2Change]

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Just as a warning to other LBS's reading this, a few months is a blazing fast turnaround but if you go back and read the first couple of pages, a couple of us did comment that it seemed like Paul's W was not a full-blown WAS yet. So he may have gotten lucky and caught things early enough to turn it around before she went full BD. Timing helps a lot, unfortunately most of us don't have a clue until the hour is late.

[Ready2Change]

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Being calm is good. Allowing WAW to Cake Eat is not. Just make sure that remaining calm doesn't turn into passive aggression. I think one thing that is difficult to grasp in DBing is the Confident Decisive Masculin energy that many LBSs need to re-embrace or embrace for the first time,.... A Confident Decisive man doesn't get upset over little things. He also doesn't allow WAW to walk over him. It is a mindset ... Don't let her take advantage of you.

[Ready2Change]

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Here's what I suggest- first of all he hasn't said anything about recon so don't jump to conclusions. Second, unless he shows that OW is out of the picture don't even entertain ANYTHING with him. Don't sleep with him, don't go out, nothing. You need to take a hardline approach and make it clear to him that A) you don't even know if you want him back anymore and B) he has to do all the work to earn your trust, respect and love all over again.... Have zero expectations. DO NOT be available to him. If he texts be slow to reply. If he wants to talk then fine, talk. But again make it clear you don't know if you are even interested in him anymore. Paradoxically the more you pull away the harder he will pursue. You'll suddenly become "high value"

[Ready2Change]

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...I am more about kids, I am an advocate for kids. Do you know your kids are hurting, and if you think they to young to understand, they know more than you think.


I needed to put my super hero cape on and stop Protecting W. I realized I am responsible for 3 little people I got my head out my a** and focus on my kids. I basically began GAL with kids, W would yell I need them I would just walk away I realized my kids could not be her crutch. .... become there super-dad don't Take that cape off not even when W is around.

Get custody of kids,.Be fair to W 50 and 50 get them in kids therapy ....

Get lots of rest, eat well, laugh more, take care of you because your babies need you more then ever.

So please let W go, and remember God has something else plan for you
And your family. And if W is part of God plan then he will make it work
on his time. Let God guide you. Let go and give him all your trouble and pain.

Stay strong and remember we are humans. It is OK to be sad, it is OK to be mad, it is OK to cry, it is OK to be confused , it is OK to be angry , it is OK to not be OK. We all make mistakes.

[Twofeet]

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2810071&page=10

I think it was Steve that said it, "the only reason a spouse wants another place is so they can sleep with someone".

I'm sure that's right a lot of the time. But I think many WAS's just want to be away from the LBS that they blame for all their woes. During my pre-DB snooping I found a note my ex had sent to her best friend telling her that her worst nightmare was thinking that she might some day have a serious health issue and that I would be taking care of her. Me, her husband of 20+ years that loved her unconditionally, it was her WORST NIGHTMARE (her exact words) that she would have to depend on me for care. Wow. I mean that is what we're up against, a WAS that doesn't like us and may even hate us. They find us repulsive, even disgusting. I'm convinced that THAT is why they want out so bad. Sure they have visions of banging a white knight too, but they just really want to get away from us way more than we can understand or imagine.

[Ready2Change]

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..so many LBS's that come here listen to all the advice about detaching, pulling back, giving the WAS time and space and INSTANTLY think that means don't ever answer the phone, don't reply to texts and blow them off at every opportunity. That is NOT what Michele means. She simply means quit pursuing. If SHE calls then answer. If SHE texts then answer. Don't initiate yourself, that's all. Also don't get into long convos, just address the business she's contacting you about and let her go. If you just completely shut down on her then guess what she thinks, you are being a cold, indifferent, uncaring jerk.


KEEP THE WAY HOME PAVED AND SMOOTH. What does that mean? It means don't drag them down the road (pursuit) but it means don't be cold and indifferent either. You can't MAKE her come back to the M, but you can make it EASIER for her to come back. OK?

Just a little more on texting- the idea is to not be immediately available all the time. The point is to make her think you're getting a life. The method is to sometimes reply right away, sometimes later, and sometimes (if it's nothing important) not at all. BUT, here's the thing. If she knows where you are, it doesn't make you mysterious. IE, if she knows you're at piano lessons and texts you and you don't reply she's not going to think "wow, what is he doing, he's so mysterious now!" So it works best when you are off GAL'ing and she doesn't know where you are or what you are doing. Don't just leave, but for example you might say "hey I have plans Thursday night from 8 to 11, do you mind watching the kids?" And then go meet friends or whatever, and if she texts then don't reply right away. See the difference?

Do you know what a "covert contract" is? Google it if you're not familiar with it. It's also discussed at length in No More Mister Nice Guy. It sounds like that's what you had in place. You never asked her what time she was going and she never offered a time (at least not that you mentioned). Here's the deal, an "agreement" is an "offer" and an "acceptance". It would go something like this:

W- Can I go to the gym tonight?
You- I plan on having the kids in bed by 8:30 and was going to head to the gym after that, can you get your workout in before then and be home so that I can go after?
W- Yes that works for me.

That is an offer from you, and an acceptance from her. Now when you have an "agreement" and she doesn't meet the terms, THEN you have a right to be upset or angry. But it doesn't sound like you had an agreement, you just made some ambiguous statements that developed into a covert contract. Be very, very careful of covert contracts, it's a form of control and manipulation. Punishing someone for a covert contract that they know nothing about just causes anger, resentment and confusion.

[Ready2Change]

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Had a great weekend detaching, GAL’ing and self improvement. Man does it feel good to do something for myself. Spent 4 hours Saturday night at the mall shopping. Bought some new outfits, something I have’t done in 8 years. Got some new shoes and today went and got a haircut. I was scared to death but I put my fears to the side and took a leap of faith with a totally different style haircut. I must say I look and feel like a million bucks. I haven’t felt this good and had this much confidence in as long as I can remember. Really working hard on my “No more Mr. Nice Guy”, focused on my physical and mental health and am generally just focused on working on myself and it is paying off big time for me. I am at times a bit sad realizing everything about me that is not so great but at the same time I feel really good because I now recognize all these things am am making huge changes in my life.

[Ready2Change]

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Mainly I'm just trying to warn you that you are going to experience a lot of highs and lows over the coming months and to prepare yourself for it. I spent a lot of time convincing myself I was OK and that I had accepted things, and I really thought I had. Then about 3 or 4 months after BD I suddenly went into severe depression and started having crazy anxiety attacks, two things I had never experienced in my life! There was no trigger to explain the timing, it just happened. It took months to recover from that, and it was the roughest few months I've ever experienced, worse even than the months after BD. I suspect that my trying to convince myself that I was OK and burying all my feelings was what caused it. On the outside I thought I was OK but inside there was a massive storm brewing.....We tend to try and convince ourselves that we've recovered when we're still far from it. We tell ourselves we've dropped the rope while still clenching it tightly behind our backs. 3 Months post BD I would have told you I dropped the rope. 6 months post BD I would have told you I was a fool to think that, but that by then I really HAD dropped it. Then a year later, once again I would have realized that no, I STILL had not dropped it at 6 months. Realistically it takes 1 to 2 years to well and truly drop the rope and get to the point where you really are OK with the sitch you're in and know you will be fine no matter what.

[Ready2Change]

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For those joining us at this point...I don't know what to say. The last thread taught me a lesson: gathering facts does not result in a whole lot of anything except spinning, negative emotions, fear, and the resulting bad decisions that are made based on fear.

Now I know what I know, and it hasn't resulted in any personal growth. So it's time to get out of my head. It's time to start holding myself accountable. Time to set some goals and really get to work on them, on the recommendation and relentless encouragement of Amoafwl.

Yesterday I quit drinking alone. It was getting out of hand. This was something I had been thinking of doing for a long time. And since I live alone, from now on I won't be keeping any beer in the fridge. This morning I was pretty agitated, anxious, and irritable. I know this will pass. So anyway, that was an unwritten goal that got achieved.

Good goals are SMART: specific, measurable, accomplishable, relevant, and time-bound. And they can be nested!

Here's one of my main goals: be more positive. W was always frustrated by my glass-half-full attitude, and I think it may have been a contributor to my sitch. More importantly, a positive attitude will be a contributor to a healthier relationship in the future. I have struggled with depression all of my life (and psychologists will tell you that the earlier it starts, the worse it tends to be). You could call me dysthymic on my best days.

But that goal is too abstract. It's more of a LIFE goal (long-term, important, far-reaching, and empowering -i just came up with that one myself). So let's nest some SMART goals in there that I'd like to accomplish by the end of October:

1. watch a video on positivity with Shawn Achor accomplished! (that's what led to this)
2. start and maintain a gratitude journal (I had been doing it haphazardly, now there's structure)
3. get better at making goals by reading some books on goal-setting (is this a meta-goal?) -- ordered Creating Your Best Life and The Slight Edge
4. exercise (might be tough to accomplish due to currently-broken ankle)
5. do random acts of kindness daily -- for example, floating around this board and saying encouraging things to you all, but also complimenting people at work for things they did well (I am the only male alongside 9 females with doctoral degrees, so I'll try not to compliment anyone on their attire)

There's a start. Hopefully when I accomplish goal #3 I'll get better at this. I've already learned that you have to operationalize these bad boys to the best of your ability.

[burned]

Inspiration for us newbies. Link to original post.

Yeah this is all surreal to me...the stuff that made frequent appearances in my dreams over the years. R with WAW even being discussed. It's surreal. It was all so, so long ago. So long ago after she left I sat there...in our apartment home for 17 years that was suddenly a dungeon with empty walls that once displayed our many photos and memories, and moving boxes everywhere. I was alone in deep, deep, despair. This was my beloved home just a few weeks ago...now it's all blown apart. The future was nothing to me...there was no future for me without her. However, as is everything in life...the years just FLY BY. Time doesn't care if you're balling yourself into glorious unconsciousness feeling nothing but intense, powerful despair. But it's true...life keeps going and time feels like it's flying by just like it always has. Now I'm here 4 years later (and several other lifetimes later it feels like with all that's happened since she left, girlfriends, family deaths)...it's weird. So you guys with fresh bomb drops, continue to cry yourselves to sleep if you have to, whatever it takes to make another day pass, because you never, never, NEVER know what this crazy life will unfold for you down the road. You'll live a completely different life. That post-bomb life is what gives you your strength back...and that strength is what just might attract your ex back down the road. Most importantly however, that strength gets you to a place where you are very aware you can survive just fine without WAW. She will merely now be a want, not a need.

I can't help think what a great position you will be in long-term if you guys do R. Think about it, she's already seen the other side and realized that it isn't what she had built it up to be in her head! I believe that if you do R, you will have a deeply devoted W moving forward, not wanting to chance losing what she almost lost once.

[Ready2Change]

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Just be careful. I don’t know if there’s any way to avoid it, but she will probably notice how you’re responding differently and may call you on it. Have a plan for how to respond. “I realized that my listening skills weren’t what I wanted them to be, so I’m working on them.” See, when they ask why, keep the focus on you. Then they are less likely to perceive it as manipulative. Ideally she should see an improvement and think, “Hey, he’s become a neat guy, not sure if I want to pass on that.”

But it takes time and don’t feel bad if you botch it before you start getting it right.

Also keep in mind that you can’t really win right now, so...another important component of this whole craziness is ZERO EXPECTATIONS. If you’re satisfied with how you responded well to a woman who expressed her feelings, pat yourself on the back. You learned a new skill that will serve you in life. It should make no difference to you whether it had any effect on her.

[Ready2Change]

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... out of the blue text and ask if I would like to have the dog for a few days ...

This must be in the WW playbook: Back in August, W asked me to look after the dog for the weekend. No way to know for sure, but it makes sense in hindsight: then she didn't have to be back in town before the kennel closed, freeing her to visit OM on the way back from her conference. Plain as day now. But back then I thought, "Hey, here's an opportunity to show her I've changed!" Ha.

People here say, "Don't believe anything she says." I take it a step further and say, "Believe the opposite of what she says, and if the opposite makes sense from the perspective of a selfish alien, then it's actually more likely to be true." Of course you can't say for sure, don't mind read. But learn to evaluate her behavior from a drastically different viewpoint, and test that against reality to see if it fits.

[Ready2Change]

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Well a devastating day yesterday. Got a call in the late afternoon about the passing of a close friend. Died in his sleep Monday evening.

Of course this has a lesson for us in dealing with our WASs. And anyone really. Remember, that as you are speaking to someone that it might be the last time you ever talk to them again. Make sure you can live with that being your last conversation with them. I know that in our sitches we always feel like it is life or death. But when death actually hits you realize how little everything else matters.

First Day -Last Day.
Live each day as if it is the first day of the rest of your life. Work toward your goals. Do not let the events of the past control you. Forgive those that hurt you in the past.

Live each day as if it is your last day. Do not pass up opportunities. Enjoy every moment of it.

[Ready2Change]

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Someone explained it this way:

If you're sitting there watching grass grow, it looks the same every time. If you leave and come back 3 weeks later, look how much taller the grass is. That's the goal here.

Not getting her to say, "I see you got a new shirt." That's pursuit.

More like, "Hey, I hadn't seen you in a month, and when you came over I thought you were going to scowl at me, but you had this big smile on your face. You looked confident. And you smelled nice, and you looked good in that new shirt. I like that shirt, it reminds me of what you used to wear before you stopped caring. And why do you smell nice, who's your new lady friend who gave you that cologne? I'll cut her if she steals you away from me. Hey, wait a minute, I'm not done with you, I think maybe I might want to keep you around a bit longer."

[Ready2Change]

link

Next time try a different approach- don't ask her "what's wrong" or "what's going on", instead try "you look upset, is there anything I can do?" If she says no then respond "No problem. I'm sorry you're feeling down." And walk away. It may not sound much different but she will perceive you as being more empathetic and sensitive.

If she doesn't want to talk then you shouldn't take that as an insult or "shutting you down". Just respect her privacy. Remember, this isn't about YOU, it's about HER. She's going through a lot right now, she's on an emotional roller coaster. Don't ride it with her!

[Ready2Change]

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How to break the news to the children.D8, D5, S3

Now DON'T LIE, just deflect the truth.

I.E. NOW: Your child: Daddy why are you getting divorced.
TF: Honey, its really complicated and has to do with adult issues between mom and I. It has absolutely nothing to do with you kids. We both love you so much.

IE: Older: I think you should ask your mother that question

IMO LBS try to use this is a tactic to get their spouse to change their mind. Again you don't want that to be the reason she stays.

[Ready2Change]

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Yes, most people think their sitch is unique. What is similar about all of them is they think that also means DBing can't work. But here is the question for you: what is the alternative?

See you really only have two choices. Pursue and pressure. Or DB: Let her go, GAL,180 where you know you made mistakes, detach, and be the H only a fool would leave.

Do you know how many sitches pursuit and pressure works in? It is a curve approaching 0. DBing is no guarantee, but you have exponentially better odds DBing over pursuit and pressure.

I've heard so many posters here say "I ignored her, so I should 180 on that, but DBing says I need to detach". This show a blatant lack of understanding of detachment. NO WHERE ANYWHERE IN THE BOOKS OR ON THIS SITE DOES IT SAY THAT DETACHMENT MEANS IGNORING!!!! Sorry, but having to repeat that over and over again get frustrating.

[Ready2Change]

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Two things here:

1. Steve85 is right.
2. Steve85 is right.
3. Steve85 is right, and others will also tell you, every time, that the rules have changed. No, the entire game has changed. In my case, BD happened because I was "checked out." So I pursued and pressured to prove that I was all in again. And that got me nowhere. The old game is over. You're not counting touchdowns anymore. You're playing tennis now, so you have to win at least 4 points at least 6 times at least twice to win the match. And that's if the other player is phoning it in. Which the WW is not.
4. Steve85 is right because he has taken all of the crazy huge amounts of information all over thee boards and distilled it down to like 3 or 4 things you just do it, do it, do it, don't question it, and save yourself MONTHS of pain. Go back to my posts from August and see what happens when you don't listen to Steve.

OK, that was 4 things. But I think you needed a 2x4 early in the game because you have SO much more potential at this point before you start doing things to make it worse.

That being said, you did point out something crucial. Write down everything she said, once you're done being ticked off about how she exaggerated it. THOSE are the things you need to 180 on, at some point. But not to show her how "all in" you are. That will backfire.

[Ready2Change]

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Don't be "weirded out" by anything she says or does b/c I am giving you fair warning that she will give very dramatic scenes of "Woe is Me". She will cry, fall down on the floor, fall into your arms...….whatever it takes to make you feel sorry for her. Yeah, the cheater who is having a pity party wants the betrayed spouse to pet her and soothe away the consequences that come from cheating and breaking up a home. Ironic, isn't it?

I want you to remember something. Just b/c she's throwing these big dramatic scenes and crying how she "just wants her baby", does not mean that one thing has changed in her. Not a thing! She's just as wayward as she ever was! This dramatic acting is nothing more than her trying to manipulate your emotions. Notice how she even hugs you when she starts to leave. Stop and think about it. How twisted is that? She wants her cake with icing galore. I realize it may be difficult to witness one of these performances, but just stick to your guns. Don't feel sorry for her. The WW has to experience the consequences of her actions. Not being able to have her child whenever she decides she wants to spend time with him, or get a look at him...….is just one of those consequences. Not that you are punishing her, but b/c whenever a mother decides to break up her home, she has to give the other parent his equal share of time with the child. In some cases, it may be more or less equal time. At any rate, this was her doing, and for her to expect (and yes, she does expect) you to feel sorry for her and give her what she wants in that moment...….is ludicrous. But, that's the mindset of the WW. In spite of everything she's done to hurt you, she still feels entitled to whatever she wants.

If you ever want to put it to a test, just say "no" (or don't sway from your stance) whenever she is throwing one of these dramatic performances. Don't hug her. Don't show sympathy, b/c she has to see that you aren't buying into her performance. Understand? The WW is trying to sucker you into feeling sorry for her and serving her a big ole slice of cake. If she gets mad at you, then rest assured nothing has changed in her......and this little scene was the equivalent to a spoiled brat falling on the floor and bawling, to get you to give in to her. However, should she quietly cry and calmly accept your decision, then that's a good sign. It is one of the first signs of her accepting the reality she has caused, and knowing in her heart that she doesn't deserve so much as a kind word from you. In other words, a little dose of humility does a world of good.

When the entire picture of a WW is observed (whether it's her pity parties, manipulation, rebellion, resentment, etc.) you'll see the sense of entitlement and selfishness in her. That's what the H is really dealing with. He gets distracted by other things, but if he will watch, he'll see how everything is centered on her.

I may sound like a cold hearted b'tch, but I'm really not. I just know how cold hearted a WW can be. I know as long as her H is vulnerable to her tricks, he's going to continue to get played. So, I keep showing up, telling you guys to beware.

((hugs))

[Ready2Change]

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It is strange that they suddenly get curious about what you are up to after they've left. He is forever asking me questions "where are you going", "who are you going with". I am not particularly forthcoming and he doesn't push (as this would indicate interest). When I was late home last week he casually said "trouble with the trains" and I replied "nope - went out for a quick drink". He didn't say anything after that, what he could he say, we are not together anymore and how I spend my time is my business, but he did look away. I didn't mention the drink was coffee and that I drank it in a coffee shop by myself.

[Ready2Change]

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I write here for me. Sorting through the jumble in my head and putting it into structured and articulate (sometimes) sentences helps me to separate the emotion from the event. The hurt from the act. Writing gives me a more detached perspective. So, in and of itself, journaling is cathartic.

[Ready2Change]

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I know. I think of him too much. But there are no expectations. I know my looking good in a dress isn't going to suddenly make him realize he is a fool for leaving me. He knows what I look like.

When he left I was broken. Months of him belittling me, criticizing me and telling me he loved me but wasn't attracted to me, had made me doubt myself. I have slowly been rebuilding, putting the pieced back together. The shock of finding out he was dating threw me in a spin. But it has taken less time to heal - because I already had six months of working on me. So, now I make the effort for me. So I can look in the mirror and be proud of who I am becoming. I make an effort out of self respect. It is a bonus that he notices.

He is reaching out an awful lot at the moment. Pleasant conversation, all children based. I was cool and aloof. As was he.

[Ready2Change]

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Thought I would share this tidbit I got from my DB coach yesterday :

He explained detaching with love very, very well to me. He said to think of my W as my sister right now. You love your siblings, but in a different way than your S.

When detaching with love you need to treat your W how you would treat your sister. He said when your sister has a bad day or is in a seemingly bad mood, that doesn't usually translate to your feelings and emotions becoming negative as well.

Basically, your feelings shouldn't/can't mirror her feelings and emotions. Don't let your W's bad mood ruin your day. I thought this was a phenomenal way to look at how to detach with love. Helped me out big time. I realize that I can still interact with my W in a loving way but if she's having a bad day, I can't let that get me down. Continue to be positive and upbeat. I think before I was confusing detaching with love with more or less going dark. Two totally different techniques and mindsets.

[RR17]

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Thought I would share this tidbit I got from my DB coach yesterday :

He explained detaching with love very, very well to me. He said to think of my W as my sister right now. You love your siblings, but in a different way than your S.

When detaching with love you need to treat your W how you would treat your sister. He said when your sister has a bad day or is in a seemingly bad mood, that doesn't usually translate to your feelings and emotions becoming negative as well.

Basically, your feelings shouldn't/can't mirror her feelings and emotions. Don't let your W's bad mood ruin your day. I thought this was a phenomenal way to look at how to detach with love. Helped me out big time. I realize that I can still interact with my W in a loving way but if she's having a bad day, I can't let that get me down. Continue to be positive and upbeat. I think before I was confusing detaching with love with more or less going dark. Two totally different techniques and mindsets.

I think that's a good way to describe it. I believe I aspire to maintain this attitude in all my relationships. unEnmeshed

[Ready2Change]

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Sorry to hear about the in-and-out from your H, but that's to be expected. He came back too soon and did not do any of the work he needs to do. I'd say chances are good he'll be back again so here are some suggestions:

1. DO NOT let him just move back in on a moment's notice. He needs to learn you don't have a revolving door that he can use whenever. He also needs to learn that he could lose you.

2. Prepare a list of requirements before he can move back in. The minimum on that list should be IC and MC sessions BEFORE he moves back. Another item should be TOTAL TRANSPARENCY meaning you can look at his phone whenever you want without warning. If he cries about it then explain he's given up his right to be trusted and he has to rebuild that trust through transparency.

3. Insist that he write a letter, email or text to OW ending things and telling her he is committed to you, and make him send it while you are watching.

If he REALLY wants to come back he will be willing to do all of this and more. Like you said there needs to be remorse on his part and he is not there yet, he has to hit bottom and he hasn't. Hitting bottom usually doesn't happen until after they realize they've probably lost their LBS for good.

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In short, he won't come back to stay and be motivated to do the work until he believes he can't come back. He won't believe he can't come back until YOU believe you don't want him back. That levels the playing field for a new relationship to start where one of you isn't "one down" to begin with.

In addition, you need to be good with yourself without him -- you need to be happy and confident. You need to be the best "you" you can be, you need to lead a life that anyone would want to share. If you can do that, then he'll be lucky to have you because you are the prize to be won.

The challenge, therefore, has really nothing to do with him or what he thinks, feels or does, and everything to do with what do YOU need to do to be happy, excited about life, and the best person you can be?

Focus on that.

[Ready2Change]

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Let me try to give you an analogy. Your W loves steak and has ate steak everyday since she was 15. 20 years later she makes a mistake and orders chopped liver. She eats it and thinks it's amazing. Not because chopped liver is better then steak because we know it's not, it's just because it's different. Now eventually after eating chopped liver for awhile and realizing that is the only kind of food available she will long for the steak dinner she once had.

Those are the only feelings I have left. I get angry at times when my D struggles with the divorce that my ex didn't try harder.

I can promise you that D is not as bad as you think it is and your children will be fine as long as you and your w are amicable. Also, there are some amazing women out there who have been wronged by men who are willing to do anything for a good man.

I have been around here long enough to know you are a good strong man who will be just fine in the next chapter in your life.

[Ready2Change]

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Last night I went to my first "real" GAL activity in a long time. Board games with some people I found on Meetup. We played Room 25, King of Tokyo, and a strange game about figuring out who's lying about being a werewolf. One guy there is super into games and is going to Germany next week for something called Essen Spiel where they show off new games.

Then a most bizarre thing happened. Suddenly we paused because it was time to do a discussion? The topic was grief. Most of the guys there (probably all about my age) talked about how they coped with losing loved ones, pets, and so forth. I talked about the loss of my M, my in-laws (who I was closer with than my own siblings), etc. One guy said he started going to this group because he was divorced a couple years ago. They were all very nice. So GAL turned into group therapy. Wasn't expecting that. But I had a good time. I will be going back.

I will say that I'm starting to understand the benefits of GAL. Having had a good night last night, meeting people who seem to like me despite all the things W has told me are wrong with me, that's helpful. Maybe I'd be feeling even worse now if I hadn't done that.

Great analogy:

IC says I have my foot nailed to the ground and I refuse to pull out the nail.

Pull out that nail, it will hurt immensely for a brief period of time, but look at the alternative. Would you rather be nailed to the floor, just stuck, while the nail causes your foot to fester and eventually your whole leg has to be removed? Get what I am saying?

[Ready2Change]

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I think the same advice I have been getting also applies to you. You just need to continue to go out and be amongst people even if it means going by yourself. Just interact with the people around you, it will remind you of what positive human interaction feels like and lift up your spirits. GAL is naturally a great tool if you use it correctly...you are either all in or all out. If you do it half heartedly (like me) you will only get half the result. It could be that the hobbies or activities are not stimulating your brain enough, maybe try something that is both hard mentally and physically so your brain does not have the opportunity to switch to the topic of your R. Think of things like Rock Climbing or Learning of to Salsa dance, both require a lot of concentration and would provide your brain the necessary break from your sitch. ...hopefully you get the idea.

[Ready2Change]

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GALg with kids is just as important as GAlg on your own. Foster your relationship with them, protect them as much as you can from the damage D will cause. They will remember that you were there for them when they are older.

[Ready2Change]

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First, believe NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, she says. Both positive and negative So many come here and say "she says we are done, there is no hope to reconcile, and it is over, move on." and they are in deep despair that there is no hope.

There is hope. Even after D, and years apart, there is hope if you are still open to it. Go read a poster named ItHurts thread and you will see there is always hope.

I see you already questions GAL. You just have to do it. DBing isn't about questioning, it is getting on the horse and start exercising the DB muscles. GAL is impossible to do while just talking about doing it, you have to do it. Detachment is impossible to do if you just talk aout it, you have to start working on detaching. 180ing the same way.

You see, the WAS, especially WSs, will talk about a lot of things and do very little of them. They tend to be mostly talk, and little action. As the LBS your job is to let your actions do the talking! Don't talk about it, just do it! We fall into that trap all the time. "I am going to talk to her about this.....I am going to talk to her about that........" Words are not helpful to your sitch. Actions are. Words are method of trying to control. "It really hurt me that you moved out of the bedroom." So? She already knows that, why enunciate it? Actions are about controlling what you can control: YOU. GAL, 180s, detachment. Those are things YOU can do.

Remember: Let her go to get her back.

[Ready2Change]

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.. the W has formed a foundation of resentment, disrespect, and rebellion. At the point when she drops the bomb, her selfishness and sense of entitlement is her driving force that leads her to break up the MR. When the H experiences the bomb, he is in shock. He tries to figure out what happened. Then he tries to jump into Super Husband mode and do things that he thinks will turn her back into the MR. However, these two people are on an entirely different time frame from one another. He wants to correct everything he might have done wrong, but she's through with the MR.


At this point in time, I don't think there is any 180 action that will "nice" her back into the M. You are torturing yourself by going over these old text/emails. I think you are probably experiencing desperation to fix what's broken, but it doesn't work that way. A wayward W is a different breed from what you might read in some marriage help books. She's lost all respect for her H, and that killed her attraction for him. Do you understand what I'm saying? Until she respects you as a man.....she will not feel desire for you. She doesn't care how much you want to work on the MR and show her how you can change. She is past that point. All those "signs" you listed, and then excused away......is very telling about your MR.

I realize this hurts you to read, and I'm sorry. I'm not saying that all hope is gone forever. I'm just telling you that the feelings you are having about "showing" her your 180's, is not what will wake her up. It's your way of trying to repair or change the H in the past...…..but, she's done with the past, so it won't work. You can't go backwards to fix things. Maybe you need to stop trying to be the H you wished you'd been, and become the man you need to be. Stop trying to convince her or persuade her about anything. Leave her alone, and let her go.

The WW respects one thing, and one thing only...…….strength. Therefore, she has to see everything you do as coming from a place of inner strength. Now, before your mind starts jumping into some "nice guy" scenario where you play the martyr while she slaughters you and stripes you of every fiber of self-respect...….let me explain that she does not see that as being strong. She does not respect a man who lets a woman walk all over him...….even if he loves her. She respects the man who stands up to her and puts her in her place (so to speak) when she's out of line. He stands up for himself, instead of cow down and apologize.....hoping that will settle her down. He's not afraid of her anger. The WW has developed a mindset that is cold and hard. She's not the girl you M. So, forget trying to impress her or persuade her with some soft, goody-goody 180 behavior.

You can be the nice guy and try to win her back with cotton candy techniques (like an apology letter), but it will only fill her with disgust. She may, or may not, be obvious about it. But, she will take advantage of you. The WW is going for whatever benefits her most. Why am I telling you all this stuff you don't want to hear? B/c I am being "real" with you, and telling you to stop searching text/emails and stop trying to find your old W in this wayward woman that's come out of the MR. The only hope of reaching her is for you to change your nice guy behavior and learn how to stand up for yourself. WW's need tough love. I'm not endorsing any type of abusive behavior. If you aren't familiar with "tough love", I recommend you google it.

You may not be able to stop the D proceedings. That doesn't mean the two of you can never get back together in the future......if that's what you want. Currently, the boat is sinking and you've got to save yourself. So, get a plan of action in how you'll survive this crisis. I suggest you get your eyes off the M and off the WW, and save yourself. You can't save anything else until you save yourself. I suggest you not use "her" lawyer. Her lawyer is looking out for her best interest......not yours. Sorry to say, but you cannot trust your W at this time. Do whatever you have to do to protect your finances, property, retirement plan, etc. If you have children, be sure you get them, at least, 50 percent of the time. Be fair, but that's all. Giving her more will not make her feelings change toward you.

Now is the time for you to evaluate your standards and principles by which you live. Don't compromise your integrity or your moral/spiritual beliefs, trying to get back a woman who doesn't want you. Be a man of honor and courage, and do what you believe is right. These are the things to focus on during a crisis.



Please don't. This is your NGS telling you to submit to her, regardless if you're really guilty or not. I'll bet that in the past, you would apologize whenever she acted cold, angry, moody, and you didn't even know what you were apologizing about. It was your go-to plan for fixing whatever was wrong with her.....and you figured it must be something you did, so you'd say, "I'm sorry". This is just your old way of trying to fix things, and she will not respect it.


You are saying, "Why didn't I try what doesn't work, one last time". It doesn't work!!

At this point, what can you lose? Right...….so why don't you do something different? Why don't you follow what we are telling you? If your way worked, don't you think we would be shouting it from the roof tops? Do you have any idea how many LBH's have tried what you are wanting to do? I've read hundreds of stories like this...…...and not ONE worked successfully by sending an apology letter.


Hero, listen to me. She doesn't care! It's too late for all that stuff. She doesn't care what you've learned or how you think you've changed......and she won't appreciate how sorry you feel for past offenses. Just don't do it.



Well, that's a common reaction, too. Just for the record, MWD does not separate WW and WAW. She lumps them together, which is okay, except the WW usually requires a little tougher love. Do you know why it's tough? B/c it's tough for you. Just like with no contact. It's tough, isn't it? Have you conquered it yet? No, b/c it's tough and you don't like doing it. If you can't manage to stop contacting her, how do you think you will handle a divorce? Don't you think she should experience just a little taste of how life will be without you?

I wouldn't say you are bull-headed. You are in a state of panic. I'm not pro-divorce, but I have not seen anyone die from it yet. Life goes on. In some cases, it gets much better. Stop clinging to someone who doesn't love you and treat you well. Hold your head up and maintain your dignity.

If you have to persuade someone to love you......what does that say about your self worth? Become the man who has attractive attributes (self-confidence, assertiveness, decisiveness, male dominance, leadership, pride, high standards, etc.) and it will draw those who are of quality, and you won't have to persuade someone to love you.

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So what is more important to you? To protect yourself from more pain, or Ring with your W? ... the answer to that question will inform a lot of your next steps.

[Ready2Change]

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IMHO, waywardness begins in the heart. It is formed from unresolved resentment, disrespect, and finally....rebellion. Other negative issues are often included, but these three make up the main foundation. What I am saying is that waywardness is more than just overt behavior that is inappropriate for a spouse. It starts with her having these resentments she can't get past and it eventually affects her respect for her H as a man. When the respect is damaged, it kills her desire for him. A sexually starved MR is often the first sign her desire for him is waning. She may continue to live with him, raise a family, etc. However, she carries these feelings in her heart. She may show him some levels of disrespect by the way she talks to him, or puts him down as a man, etc. She may never physically cheat on him. IMHO, the physical cheating is not the only defining behavior of waywardness......but many H's don't get too concerned until they know another man has entered the picture. Many WW's have emotional affairs. Anyway, I explain more in my threads, "Help for the LBH with a WW".

[Ready2Change]

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...she admits to kissing. I am reminded of something one of the board's favorite vet's use to say. He said a WW will usually admit to a level just lower than the full truth. That's how teenagers will communicate sometimes, to test the reaction of their parent. I guess it makes sense, cause WW's are like rebellious teenagers.

I think everyone who comes to the board is seeking help, or they wouldn't be here. People get upset if we don't give them hope, and they get upset if we do....and reconciliation never comes. They say we offered them false hope. I am a realist and I probably speak more bluntly than some would prefer, but I will be as honest as I can. Ultimately, it's up to you as to how long you want to hope for a reconciliation. If you can move forward with life, and still hold to some hope that one day both you and your spouse can heal from all the issues......then that's up to you. Some people just don't know how to move forward apart from their spouse. They are to co-dependent on the MR. Those are the ones that have such a difficult time even thinking of giving up hope......b/c of their own inner issues.

Here's the thing......the more people giving you advice, the more chance of receiving different advice... Some of us on the board don't always see eye to eye about everything. What's the chances you are going to hear everyone say the same thing?

It's just more disrespect coming from her. Look, she feels disgusted with you, and blames her unhappiness on this bad MR. That doesn't mean you are disgusting person...….it just means those are the feelings of a WW. Waywardness is all about the lack of respect. In order to draw your W, she'll need to see you in a light of strength. She needs to respect you as man, first. Understand? A woman has to feel respect for her H as a man, before she can feel desire for him as her H. She's not going to do anything lovingly from her heart as a wife, when she doesn't respect you as a man. You are working hard to learn new skills and better yourself as a man. It's a growth process. Along the way, you'll learn that firm boundaries are needed with a WW. If she doesn't feel the sting of her disrespect and selfishness, then she's not going to suddenly change for the better (without an ulterior motive). This subject (boundaries) within itself is too much to cover in this post.

Wait a minute. That's DB language that is used on the board. Why would your WW being using that expression, unless you are repeating to her the things you pick up on the board? It's a pet peeve of mine, I suppose, but she's not the one showing up for class...….YOU are. Don't be one of these guys that think they are going to get somewhere with the WW by flashing some of the board's phrases around with her. If I'm wrong, I apologize, and just stick it under you hat. Do you follow what I'm saying here? Don 't be sharing DB terminology or phrases or anything in your tool box with her. Don't even tell her you are working on yourself. Don't tell her how badly you want to save the MR. Don't tell her how bad you hurt. Don't share your goals with her. Don't tell her anything, unless we specifically tell you to say it. Don't talk to her about the OM and their "relationship". If they are having sex in front of D4.....or you have reason to be concerned about her being around OM.....then get legal advice of what you can do. Otherwise, they will laugh at your powerlessness over what they do in their "relationship". Learn what you can control, and what you can't. Are you getting the picture? .....Look, what did you expect to get when you told her that? Again, I suspect you picked it up from the board warning you not to trust her about child visitation......b/c we have learned from people's experiences. That's for you ONLY, not for you to run your mouth to her. Is there anything you haven't told her that you've gotten off the board? This is like chopping off your own foot. It gets you nowhere but behind.

High emotional state sounds like a female. Women get in high emotional state b/c we are emotional creatures, sometimes called the weaker sex b/c of our capacity for high emotional state of mind. On the other hand, we women need our men to remain calm, in command, in charge, and strong enough to handle our high emotional state. Sorry for being so tough on you. I'm really not trying to beat you up. I want to help you, and pointing these things out is how I know where to get started. When I read your first post, I thought to myself that you probably did not have many, or if any, close male buddies. It always shows whenever a man has mostly women in his life. Just as women need other women, so do men need to spend time around other men. So, I want to encourage you to try to spend more time around strong, positive, males.

[Ready2Change]

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If she ends up telling me she is going to, I'm not sure how to handle it. I think she's going to try to float the idea of her still coming to our house to eat, put kids to bed and then go back to her place to sleep.

"W this arrangement doesn't work for me. We both need space from one another to figure out what we want in the future. If you are around all the time we won't be getting the space we need."

I don’t think what you are proposing works for me.

STRENGTH. Does "I don't think" sound like strength?

THIS ARRANGEMENT DOESN'T WORK FOR ME!

You have just as much right and power in this arrangement as she does.

How I want to respond, if she tries to use that against me: “I know I said that and I still believe that and will always believe it, but this is your decision not mine.”

Why do you have to respond? She has her opinion and you have your opinion.

Again, you are trying to use logic and reason and guilt to get her to stay with you. Won't work.

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I think all of us have an expectation that S will "wake them up" and teach them some hard lessons on how hard life is going to be without us. Unfortunately it rarely works out that way. They are actually happy, even elated to be out on their own. Sure it's a lot of work but most of them embrace it. They've been partnered with someone for so long that they've never really had a chance to "prove themselves" and they actually enjoy the opportunity. It's very, very rare that a WAS comes running back shortly after S. They need to get over the initial excitement of trying something new, which can take many months. Then they start getting bored and lonely and talk to guys, or maybe go out, and find out the grass ain't greener after all, and in fact is usually pretty brown, dead and rotten. And they look back and what do they see, THAT is where you come in and what your part is in all of this. Do they see a sad, dejected, demoralized heap on the floor or do they see a strong, confident, good-looking, well dressed, fit man that is living a full life without them? So there are your goals. You can't throw a rope around her and drag her back. But you CAN become the spouse only a fool would leave. And if she leaves anyway, then you will shake your head at what a fool she is.

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Lots of LBSs start R talks due to what we call "the illusion of action". Most LBSs that are in limbo HATE IT. And they think any action is better than inaction. It isn't.

Also, try to throw emotion out the window and ask yourself, objectively, what the motivations behind your actions are. So many of us LBSs do things in the guise of setting boundaries, standing up for ourselves, etc, when really it is just manipulation attempts, or trying to get the WAS' attention.

So what is the rush?

[Ready2Change]

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This was all due to her giving me an outlandish value for some of the things she was leaving and wanting to buy new. Example she wanted 1k for dining table. I said I will not buy a her a new dining table at 1k. Since we both own our table 50/50 and I am keeping it I will buy out her half at the value we think the table is worth.

If this comes up again then try this- "W, it sounds like we disagree on the value of the table. If you feel the table is worth 2k, then I will accept that value and let you have it and you can pay me 1k for my half of it." Then if she hedges but still wants too much then "Very well, since we can't agree then let's sell the table and split the proceeds 50-50. Let me know how the sale goes."

[AnotherStander]

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Post from Accuray, reposted to above link by LH19:

There is really only one prescription and that is to take the focus off of W entirely and focus only on you, your life, and what you want from it. Your learnings about what you need to improve about yourself are an asset you take with you, but everything else about W, what W is doing, what W is thinking, etc. needs to be entirely put aside.

You are not safe for her to approach until she feels you've let her go. That's a simple truth, but incredibly hard to accept.

Reaching out to W, making overtures, contacting W's family, talking to OM's W, snooping on W, this is all "drinking the poison water"

Why are you doing it? Why are you so obsessed with W? You were in a relationship with a woman who wasn't meeting your needs, who would irrationally blame you for anything that went wrong, and then cheated on you and lied to you. Why is that a prize worth making the focus of your waking attention?

The reason is that you are grasping to re-establish a feeling of control over your life.

When W dropped the bomb she ripped your sense of stability away from you. From your perspective you didn't do anything to deserve it, you couldn't stop it from happening, and you couldn't put things back together afterwards.

That would make anyone feel totally out of control, spinning down the drain, and that is a horrible feeling!

You are trying to analyze and understand everything so that you can build it into a rational model so that it will never, ever happen to you again. If I can avoid doing X, then Y will never happen. In addition, you want to unlock this puzzle, to deconstruct it so you can find the solution that will allow you to rebuild it. Finding that key would provide immense comfort.

Your brain has convinced itself that getting W back, or getting W to apologize and declare a desire to have you back is the very best and fastest way to restore your feeling of being in control.

With the benefit of time and distance, you'll realize that's what it's really all about, it's about regaining the ability to feel in control of your life and your future. It really has very little to do with W or who she is as a person, she's a lever to get you what you want, but that's really just an illusion.

You're dying of thirst (feeling out of control), and pursuing W is drinking the water out of the poison lake. You think it will satisfy your thirst each time you do it, but really it's just making you sicker.

We will tell you "don't drink the water!" Intellectually you'll agree, but the water is always there and logically it seems that drinking it is the shortest path to no longer being thirsty.

Instead, you need to paddle your ass to the shore, leave the raft behind, and get a drink somewhere else.

That's not code for having your own affair or finding a new woman to have a relationship with. It has to do with finding an authentic way to rebuild your feeling of being in control, controlling your own destiny and getting your mojo back.

If you take the focus off of W *completely* she will notice. That will give her space to breathe, and to think. That's the only way these things turn around -- the ONLY way.

[Ready2Change]

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I spent 8 months in limbo and while I used that time wisely it had no impact on my XW returning. I was not strong enough at the time but looking back I wished I would have filed for divorce myself. I realize now that she started dating as soon as she moved out (3 weeks after BD) of the house and more than likely only moved forward with divorce when she found someone she was comfortable with which is her current BF. I enabled the entire thing as I sat back, gave her time/distance and worked on myself. I enabled her to get comfortable and move forward on her terms.

That being said....don't file for D if you don't want one and don't do it as a trick or ploy to get your W to return.

[Ready2Change]

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So many people telling me so much. All good advice and I listen to it all. It's processing the information and ultimately making my own decisions that will allow me to move forward.

Timing is also important. Knowing which advise applies in which situation, and what step of the process.

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You do have a chance for a do-over. Life isn't over yet man...It's only late when you're on your death bed and you look back with regret. I don't want to have any major regrets about what I wanted to do in life and who I wanted to be.

[Ready2Change]

Some people think that a WAW is hard, angry, cold. In a fog. There's more to her than that.

4 years ago, a woman laid in bed at night, not wanting to wake up in the morning. There was no way out. She couldn't divorce him. He would have visitation without her there to protect them. He had never hit them, but he surely didn't understand how to care for them. He didn't even know who they were.

She couldn't leave. She had no job, no way of putting food on the table for the children she loved. She had been dependent for so long, & she trusted this man to provide for her. Now she lay in bed, wondering who he was, & how she got her. These were not the choices she would have made, if she had a 2nd chance.

She couldn't talk to him. He couldn't hear her. She desperately wanted to share herself with him. He had walls up. She couldn't penetrate them. He seemed so content to work, watch TV, eat & sleep. Why didn't he want more, like she ?

She felt trapped. She resented herself for letting him treat her this way for so long. He told her often enough, he was a good husband. She needed so much more from him. She tried telling him, for years she tried, then she cried, she begged, she pleaded, but he couldn't hear.

He was cold, hard, in a fog.

She tried everything, she read every book. She prayed her heart out. She tried to be more Christ-like. Figuring if she set the example, he would follow.

She knew it came down to two choices. Her children's happiness, or hers. She would sacrifice hers. She decided to stay, & raise the children, with this man who would never know her. When they moved out, so would she. Then she would salvage what was left of her.

She put her heart in a dusty old box in the top of the closet. It was easier. She didn't hurt anymore, she was numb.

When she finally quit trying, & tried to fill her hours with distractions, he noticed. His fog was lifting. He wasn't quite so cold, so hard. She didn't care. It was too late. She was numb. Her heart was in that box. She vowed never to take it out again.

She stumbled through her days, crossing them off in the calendar. Wondering how much longer she could live this way. Did her children see her unhappiness ? She wondered, are they better off with a single happy parent, or with two parents who co-exist ? The torment was eating her alive. What to do ?

By now, she wasn't sleeping. Wasn't eating. She pulled away from all of her friends. She was dying inside. She desperately wanted, needed to be loved, appreciated, noticed, cherished. She was a beautiful fragile flower slowly dying without water, sunshine & air.

When no one was watching, she cried. She cried til she ran out of tears. She wanted it to be over, she wanted the pain to stop. Everytime she looked at her husband, it reminded her of the pain. The pain that was consuming her. She turned to alcohol to numb the pain. Anything to make the pain go away. Her friends ask her why she's losing so much weight. She wonders, why can't anyone see that I'm dying here. She doesn't try to tell the man she shares a bed with, remember, he can't hear her.

She finally writes him a letter. She says she is done. They need to raise their children, & he's the only one who can be their dad. Now he's fully awake & out of his fog. He's scared. He had no idea how bad she hurt. He thought things were good. He's been living in a separate reality from her.

He says he'll change, he'll do anything, to make her happy. He says his family is the most important thing to him. She doesn't believe him. She's numb. Her heart is safely in that box. He tries, she watches. He tries some more, she watches. He's dying now. She's numb. Now he wants the pain to stop. She's numb. She wonders why did things have to go this far before he would hear me ? Now she doesn't want to talk to him. She's numb. Talking to him reminds her how much she used to hurt, she can see it in his eyes now. Her survival instincts kick in, at least she doesn't hurt now. She's numb.

The only place to go from numb is anger. He tries some more, she can see he's making changes. Now comes the buried anger. The anger that she wanted to express to him for all the years past. The anger she was afraid to show. He doesn't realize, angry is better than numb. He takes her anger. For 12 months he takes her anger. Sometimes he fights back, & when he does she goes numb again.

She's so scared to take her heart out of that dusty box. Numb is so much safer. Angry is so much safer. Does he know how hard it is for her. She knew the day that her children were born, that she would give her life for them. She just didn't know it would be like this.

Sometimes he tries to push her to heal faster. She's doing her best. He wants more from her at times. She's doing her best.

Some nights, the pain returns, & she remembers, & she just can't sleep. She's not numb anymore, and the anger is going away. She doesn't know how or where, but it is. She's so scared. Numb is safer. Angry is safer. If she gives in to her fear, to her sometimes overwhelming fear, everyone will call her a WAW. She wanted you to know.

[Ready2Change]

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Looking confident and being arrogant are two different things folks. You can be confident without being arrogant... My wife was on the fence seriously contemplating leaving the relationship. She expressed seriously that she did not know what to do. Obviously, I cannot tell her what to do even though I feel my advice is sound, and that I did not feel our relationship is as bad as she feels that it is. Instead, I prayed to God and I told him it was in his hands. I assured my wife when opportunities arose that I did not blame her that I am very aware that I play a major part in how she feels. I assured her that I know she loves me and that I know she cares about me. But I did not offer up suggestions, or solutions or try and tell her how she must be feeling. I put that in God's hands.

My wife has stepped back from that cliff again, and I thank God and glorify him for that because she had to make a very tough decision in her mind to stay. Not saying I won't find myself here again. But at least, for the time being, I feel like I'm standing on firm ground.

If you feel judgment in your heart that your wife is making a bad decision, and no doubt all of us feel that she probably is, but in her mind, she has justified that she is making the right decision, then she senses by your words and actions that you are judging her. She senses that you feel superior to her because you aren't the one walking out and you make it clear that her walking out makes her selfish when in her mind she has rationalized that she has finally built confidence and strength and you can't even acknowledge that. This is what makes you arrogant. Only when you sit her down and take responsibility for your actions (give examples of what those actions look like) in this marriage that has gotten you two to this point and not mention once anything she has done or is doing in an attempt to reflect it back on her will she actually feel like she doesn't have to justify her reasons for leaving anymore. When you tell her that you know that she does care about you, the kids and the family but that you see a renewed sense of strength and confidence that you have not seen in a while in her. That you acknowledge that you know she has had to make some of the toughest decisions in her life and you know that she did not come to this lightly, but you understand she had to make a decision and you respect that. Only then will that weight be lifted off her shoulders. That is when she can start to heal and that is when she will start to see you as a different person than she has been rationalizing you as in her head. Once you start this process though it will not change overnight. All of this takes time. A lot of time. When I did this with my wife several months ago, all she said was wow. However, that didn't mean she trusted me right then and there it took months of her processing it and me showing and saying these things over and over again letting her know that I don't know what she's feeling I can only imagine it's very difficult and I'm available if she ever wants to talk. Keep up the good work and don't give up just because hard. But understand this has been hard on her too and yes she's giving up but look at how many times you have contemplated giving up.

[Ready2Change]

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So, my question is, if W asks me before I leave, "So you are just going to hang out with best friend?" How do I respond? Right now I'm thinking I will just tell the truth. I will tell W, "best friend is out of town but I plan on getting to together with X since its been awhile and it'll be nice to catch up."

OK so the rule of thumb here is not to lie, but not to be real generous with information either.

So you might say "no he's going out of town."

Then if she asks if you're not doing anything after all then say "I still am, I made other plans." I

f she keeps pushing, THEN say "I plan on getting to together with X since its been awhile and it'll be nice to catch up."


It's walking a fine line. Some LBS's are way too generous with info and others are way too stingy. The former makes it sound to the WAS like they are trying desperately to convince them they are not hiding anything, and the latter makes it sound like they are intentionally hiding something. But in between is where you want to be- I am living my own life and I will tell you about it if you insist but frankly I don't care to share it with you if I don't have to.

Thank you, AS. That's the answer I was looking for. The 'what if she keeps asking' angle of it.

[Ready2Change]

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Do not quibble over stupid things. ... If it is immaterial - let it go. I don't mean let her walk all over you. But be fair. The things to remember are (and this is applicable to multiple situations): am I doing X because what she is asking is fundamentally unreasonable, am I doing X out of spite; is X in the best interest of the children and how does doing X help me detach. I ask myself those four questions all the time, and I still sometimes do the wrong thing.

[Ready2Change]

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My guess is that your MIL talked to her daughter. She probably told her how hard it would be on the kids, right as the holidays are approaching. She may have encouraged W to seek professional help. As a mother, these are things I would probably ask my D, especially if I was fond of my SIL.

Her note sounded very polite. I can see how it might be difficult for you not to get hopeful, thinking this is your W "reaching out" to you and suggesting you talk and seek counseling. I think you will feel that you have to meet to hear what she has to say...….b/c you'll think if you turn it down that you'll always wonder if that was your chance to save the MR and you didn't take it. There have been many LBH's to go through this same experience, and they can't help themselves. They jump on everything that moves.

I wish having a heart to heart would change the direction of things, but if she has some other guy waiting in the wings, I don't think a heart to heart will work.....nor will MC. I do agree that you shouldn't respond with something that sounds like you are simply playing games.

I was thinking of responding with something simple like " W, I would welcome an opportunity to have a dialogue and I am willing to talk to you next week after I return home. Once I know my exact schedule, I will let you know what day(s) work best for me.

Well, I would leave out the "Welcome an opportunity to have a dialogue". I would say something like, I will agree to hear what you have to say". As I said, I don't think you'll miss the chance for the R talk, so I will give you some thoughts as though you are meeting with her.

* Meet in a public place, so if things don't go well, you can get up and walk away whenever you want.
* This is not the time to make jokes, clown around, try to flirt, etc. Be civil, calm, and serious. Act as if it is a business meeting. Be confident above everything else. That's most important.
* Be prepared to listen, rather than you trying to talk. This is not a talk to reconcile. She just wants to "air her feelings". She really is not interested in hearing anything you have to say, b/c she already knows how you feel. So, go with the intention of just listening.
* Tell her to come alone. Some H's who have experienced meeting for a discussion, were shocked when the WW brought her BFF or father, or someone else. So, tell her not to bring company along if she wants to have a talk with you.
* Listen to hear if she talks about reconciling and doing whatever it takes to save the MR. Does she talk about wanting to save her family, or is talking about herself. Is she willing to end all contact of any kind with OM? Listen carefully to hear if this all about her feelings. Listen to hear what she is willing to do.....other than just attending MC. Is she really willing to roll up her sleeves and work on the MR, or is she looking for a divorce counselor that just tells you how to transition everyone into their new life? If you'll listen closely, I think she'll give herself away. Oh, and if she should say something about acting as if none this ever happened and pick up where the MR left off...…..get up and walk out. That is a sure sign of a WW who does not want to do the necessary work.
* Observe her emotions. Is she calm? Does she seem humble, haughty, cold, distant, overly friendly, etc. Does she appear peaceful, hurt, or angry? Is her anger barely under control? Can you see her anger when she talks about your faults in the downfall of the MR? Is crying? (Don't let tears confuse you, or make you feel sorry for her, b/c they are for herself.) How does she talk about the kids?
* Do not tell her you don't want a divorce! She already knows it. Repeating it only sounds weak to her ears.

You may be able to come to some conclusions during the talk, but if you are not entirely certain and want to discuss it with the board....then tell her you will think it over and get back to her. IMHO, this is an opportunity for you to show your strength. No matter what she says or how emotional she gets, you are the stronger person. She can't make you break down in front of her. She can't force you to make promises, or plead with her. She can't make you act in any way that would indicate you are emotionally weak.

I may be wrong, but I highly doubt this meeting is a sign that she's having second thoughts. I think it is her way of getting through the holidays and trying to keep Mama off her back. That's my first thought. My second thought is that Plan A is a little shaky right now, so she wants to secure Plan B for the next couple of months.

[job]

Please start a new thread and link your threads. Thanks!

[Ready2Change]

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