Unsure what's next, what to do.....

[Wanted1]

Update after the joint session:

Not sure how I feel about what I've learned. We didn't get through much and have all agreed to have another session to sort of pick up the conversations since we didn't really get them completed.

W started out telling me her feelings. She said she is happy with the changes that I've made and find them honorable and respects them but is concerned that it took a therapist and books to show me the love that I have for her and the things that I needed to change so therefore she sort of thinks they aren't real (I'm paraphrasing that last part). She said she's hesitant of believing that I am changing since there have been "empty promises" in the past. Said I've never supported her in the things that bring her joy and fulfillment and therefore she doesn't think I love her on a deeper, emotional level since I've never gotten to know her on those levels. Asked why my very instinctual habits would be changing now. She said she's having really hard time believing and grasping that I've become more religious, not eating as much and exercising, etc. (These are the changes that I've made in the past 4 weeks)

She went on say that the comments I've made to her have bounced with making her feel loved and hope for a better future but then telling her how much help I need and how damaged she is. (I think she's reading a lot into what I've said to her but I just tried to validate the entire time). I asked her to give an example of this and she didn't give any specific examples but said her "ears perk up very time I said something that she thinks is a jab at her or something to remind her that she is the one in the wrong or the one that needs help. She did state that I mentioned that I deserve the positive outcomes of what can come from working through this all in therapy, etc. moving forward since we've been together so long. She apparently didn't hear the whole comment because what I actually said was "I think we've both done things wrong in our relationship and I feel as though we both deserve to benefit from the positive changes in both of us moving forward. I specifically remembered telling her that SHE deserves a more emotionally available and loving husband in me moving forward since she's had to deal with the opposite for 9+ years. (A lot of what she said was picking and choosing what I said and taking them out of context however I didn't accuse her of that or address it. I sort of just let it pass by the entire time)

She went on to say that for some of these reasons she's not very confident that we won't end up right back where we are. She's concerned that this incident won't be held over her head moving forward (Even though I've told her a couple times that I will not bring up the past moving forward. That I think all of our time and effort needs to be focused on the present and future and bringing up the past isn't going to do anyone any good. I also expressed this again during the session today). She went on to say she thinks we can work on improving but a complete and total "change" is very "far fetched" given our history, she feels like "too much damage as been done." She kept referring to my "insults" lingering with her endlessly. She acknowledged that these comments were made out of anger (after finding out about incidents A, B, C - she mentioned comments of her promiscuity, unworthiness, or that she only gets attention because of her looks, etc.)

Long story short, there was just a lot of reading into my comments in the past, big time, and taking words out of context. I just don't know how to combat this when A) something was taken out of context or the full comment or thought wasn't shared and B) referring to the fact that all of the good things I've said are essentially set aside and not given any validity because I've said bad things in anger.

I completely understand that she has the right to be hesitant about the changes. Like its been discussed here in about every situation, you can't expect the other spouse to accept the changes after only a month. I can get past that because I know my changes are for me and for becoming a better version of myself. It's just the other things that she's holding against me that make me wonder if I stand a chance at all.

The whole session was just a lot of this same stuff. I'm just looking for some advice on how to proceed or if anyone has any pointers of what I can do better. I'm working on detaching because the outlook appears pretty grim at this point and I might as well start preparing myself now rather than later. I'm not going to be bringing up the R or M topic with her moving forward and I expressed that to her. I told her my door is always open to talk but I've said what I need to say to her and will not be coming to her with any of my thoughts or feelings moving forward.

[Wanted1]

Also, towards the end of the session her therapist asked her what are her feelings right now. The IC wondered if she was leaning one way or another or just unsure and her response was “right now I don’t see the point of working on it. It gives me so much anxiety to think about trying to work on our marriage. I can’t deny that I’ve not had any strong feelings within the past month to Reconcile and this time apart has felt as if a weight has been lifted off my shoulders.”


So here’s a question I’m struggling with....throughout the whole session her constant underlying theme seemed to be that I didn’t come to her with feelings and/or she never felt comfortable or “safe” coming to me with any feelings. Her exact words were “we’ve never had that connection or that best of friends relationship.” This mindset (from what she’s accusing me of) are basically exactly what the DBs techniques are. So, how do I do my own 180s when they would be directly opposite of the DB techniques?

[Ready2Change]

“we’ve never had that connection or that best of friends relationship.”

Is this true, or just her current belief?

[Ready2Change]

she never felt comfortable or “safe” coming to me with any feelings.

You job is to make it safe for her. You do this by listening. Never give advise unless she asks for it.


Read this:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2030390#Post2030390

And this:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=43581&Number=1776285#Post1776285


and this:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=46578&Number=1998146#Post1998146

[Wanted1]

“we’ve never had that connection or that best of friends relationship.”

Is this true, or just her current belief?

Hard to say.....there might be some truth to it from her POV but I’ve thought of her as my best friend and I’ve come to her in vulnerable, emotional states when I’ve told her quite a few times over the past couple years that I wasn’t feeling as though she was speaking to my love language. I think she is maybe over exaggerating the extent of the “disconnect”.

Another theme in her thoughts today was she is tired of me “manipulating” or controlling her feelings. She said anytime we talk she ends up agreeing to my feelings or thoughts instead of her own. I wanted to state that while that wasn’t my intention and that is more her perception. If she has different thoughts and feelings and didn’t express them to me, I can’t read minds. So, if she was reluctantly agreed with me, she should have told me she was feeling otherwise. Again, if her mindset was she didn’t feel comfortable expressing those feelings, I understand that but at some point I feel as though you are at fault for allowing your thoughts to be manipulated or controlled by someone else if you never express otherwise. I didn’t say any of that, obviously, but it was what I was thinking! Instead I tried to validate.

[Ready2Change]

Book:
https://www.amazon.com/Love-Without...mp;ie=UTF8&qid=1282451576&sr=1-1

[burned]

concerned that it took a therapist and books to show me the love that I have for her and the things that I needed to change so therefore she sort of thinks they aren't real

hesitant of believing that I am changing since there have been "empty promises" in the past

I've never supported her in the things that bring her joy and fulfillment

why my very instinctual habits would be changing now

hard time believing and grasping that I've become more religious, not eating as much and exercising, etc. (These are the changes that I've made in the past 4 weeks)

picking and choosing what I said and taking them out of context

not very confident that we won't end up right back where we are

concerned that this incident won't be held over her head

a complete and total "change" is very "far fetched" given our history

"too much damage as been done."

These are all found in Ch. 2 of the WW Textbook. Your W and my W must be in the same class. Maybe they do their homework together in study hall?

I just don't know how to combat this when A) something was taken out of context or the full comment or thought wasn't shared and B) referring to the fact that all of the good things I've said are essentially set aside and not given any validity because I've said bad things in anger.

You don't combat it. That's not DB. You validate, yes. And take copious notes. She is giving you the gift of time, but she's also giving you a list of things to work on. Now, take them with a grain of salt, because they're exaggerated.

I completely understand that she has the right to be hesitant about the changes. Like its been discussed here in about every situation, you can't expect the other spouse to accept the changes after only a month. I can get past that because I know my changes are for me and for becoming a better version of myself. It's just the other things that she's holding against me that make me wonder if I stand a chance at all.

She won't really care much about your changes until she starts to get the feeling that some other nice lady will be the one to benefit from them.

You don't stand a chance at all. Not this you, not against this her. Not yet. At the end of the marathon, so I'm told, you stand a much better chance than you think if you DB hard.

The whole session was just a lot of this same stuff. I'm just looking for some advice on how to proceed or if anyone has any pointers of what I can do better.

You're having the same experience I had in MC. WW saw MC as just another tool in her tool belt. "See, we tried." Or, "You never listen to me, even when I bring it up in front of a professional!" For me, MC became a place for her to be mean and for me to get angrier and continue to place the focus on her. Neither of us enjoyed it, and it didn't improve our relationship. It gave her an easier out, and it gave me false hope for months. The false hope is what prevented me from seeing the reality of my situation and being more proactive about doing things FOR ME. But you might be better at this than me.

The best advice I got was advice I didn't take, from people here and from people in real life. Once my eyes were open I should have walked in there and said, "Hey, I'm done, this isn't going to help unless we're both all in." I didn't do it because I was afraid she would say, "OK, fine, then I'm out." In the end that's what she said anyway, except more strongly.

Specific advice? Let's see what others think about this, but here's what I can suggest. If you have another joint session, listen, validate, and when it comes time for you to say your side, give them something like this: "W, I hear your concerns and I understand what they are. I know that I can't erase them and I know that I can't change overnight. I'm working on improving myself. In the meantime, I don't think it's necessary/beneficial to attend these joint sessions. I would be happy to discuss working on the R with you when we're both at a place where that's a real possibility." Something like that. Maybe others on here can tidy up the language a bit.

But if you're anything like me, you'll have trouble saying that unless you're in a strong, positive, peaceful state of mind. Hence GAL. Especially exercise and time with good friends.

[Wanted1]

Thanks, Ready and burned. The whole time I was thinking to myself "she can't REALLY believe all of this can she?!" But she probably does 'at this stage'. I am just hoping and praying that she can tear down the walls she has guarded herself with and start thinking and speaking with logic instead of emotions.

[LH19]

I am just hoping and praying that she can tear down the walls she has guarded herself with and start thinking and speaking with logic instead of emotions.

W,

The main reason we end up here is because we don't understand woman and they don't understand us. As men we think using logic and reason. If I get divorced I will lose half the time with my kids, half my assets, if I ever get married again it will be a blended family which will be very hard and stressful.

A woman thinks with her emotions. I am not happy right now, the only way I can be happy is if I get rid of W. He is preventing me from my happiness. It has to be him what else could it be?

Now on the plus side when you think with logic that never changes. However, when you think with emotions that changes. How you feel today is not necessarily how you are going to feel in the future.

The point is, don't hold your breath that she is going to be thinking logically anytime soon. Women are just not built that way. That is why woman file for D 80% of the time.

[Wanted1]

I am just hoping and praying that she can tear down the walls she has guarded herself with and start thinking and speaking with logic instead of emotions.

W,

The main reason we end up here is because we don't understand woman and they don't understand us. As men we think using logic and reason. If I get divorced I will lose half the time with my kids, half my assets, if I ever get married again it will be a blended family which will be very hard and stressful.

A woman thinks with her emotions. I am not happy right now, the only way I can be happy is if I get rid of W. He is preventing me from my happiness. It has to be him what else could it be?

Now on the plus side when you think with logic that never changes. However, when you think with emotions that changes. How you feel today is not necessarily how you are going to feel in the future.

The point is, don't hold your breath that she is going to be thinking logically anytime soon. Women are just not built that way. That is why woman file for D 80% of the time.

LH, thanks so much. That makes a ton of sense.

Does anyone have any suggestions for the question I posted previously about my 180s sort of conflicting with the DB approach? She tells me I've never been there for her emotionally that we've never had that emotional connection, etc. If I keep distancing and detaching I fear that that will only confirm her fears that I can not change. I realize the change is for me, especially the detaching. However, I think most of us here realize that even though the DBs and changes we are instituting in ourselves are, ultimately, for us, we also hold out hope that they will also lead to R. That is my case anyway. I'm just looking for suggestions on how to implement not only my 180s but also continue proper DB techniques that will help me become stronger and prepare myself for what appears to me the road headed for D.