...twice shy...

[sandi2]

I think what I meant by "forcing" the D prep work is that in my mind, divvying up belongings, separating accounts, etc. is just a step in that direction. But here's another fine line I'm trying to walk, which is how to be strong/assertive without being so unavailable that she ends up always being the one who has to take charge in dealing with the nuts and bolts.

On the other hand, divvying up belongings, separating accounts, etc., just might bring the realization of divorce into a clearer view for her. I'm not saying this to up your expectations, but just to show you the other side of how you are thinking about her. When a W dumps her H, she should expect to step up and deal with the nuts & bolts in her life. However, this is another part of the wayward mindset that is often illogical. Many WW's have a sense of entitlement, or they've been spoiled rotten, or whatever the case.....and they think the ex should continue taking care of the things she doesn't want to deal with, or continue doing whatever benefits her. It may be keeping joint accounts or mowing the yard, but many WW's don't "get it" through their head that all that stuff ends when she opts to chunk the MR. It is a reality wakeup for some. The sooner the WW has to face the reality of her bad choices, the more likely she'll come out of her wayward fog and want to reconcile.

At this point, and as painful as it may feel, I think some of your viewpoints might be clearer if you saw the two of you as separate entities, rather than one. What two spouses do for one another in a loving MR, is not the same as when they are living individual lives.

Which then makes me look like I'm not letting go and haven't learned to tell her what MY needs are.

I feel like every time I open my mouth I am hurting you, but at the same time I want to respond to some of the things that might help you better grasp the situation. With that said, she doesn't care about "your needs" in the sense a loving W would care. Let's separate the types of needs in this situation. You have certain emotional needs and then there are physical and business matters that need to be handled. So, I'll lightly touch on both, I'll start by saying that she isn't going to sacrifice anything just to make you feel better, if you know what I mean. This is not the time frame in which to state any of your emotional needs. Do you know why? B/c her wayward behavior trumps your emotional needs in the MR.;....at the present time. Once she has ended her affair and is remorseful and willing to work on the MR.....then you can express the emotional and/or more personal type needs that everyone has in a relationships. I don't know that that's what you were referring to, but just want to cover this, in case. And in case you are referring to MWD's book where she writes about telling your spouse what you need, I'm pretty sure she is speaking to couples who both are willing to save the M. (There is a little line at the end of one of those chapters that says this, and many people miss it.)

Your W may have been all sugar & spice at one time, but now she is looking out for one person, and I don't have to tell who that is. Until she ends her wayward thinking/acting, she will continue to put her best benefit above what anyone else wants/needs. At this point, expressing your emotional needs to her should stay off the table, b/c it could make you sound weak. Not that you are weak for having emotional needs, b/c that's what makes us human. It's just that it's not the time to express it. That time will come if & when she seeks you out, and humbly apologizes and is willing to do whatever is necessary to make the MR work successfully. Until then, don't confuse emotional or personal needs with business matters that requires her attention.

Changing gears just a little bit, and focusing on how to word some text messages, (and I am no authority or even very good at wording things, but I could probably spot something she could take the wrong way). I suggest you look at some simple things that you consider politeness, and see how you might state it just a little differently. I don't mean that you should be a jerk. I don't mean you can't be polite, but sometimes a real sweet NG comes off looking like a marshmallow.

"Hey, sorry to bother, but would it be possible..." Rather than what I've been doing for the last week, which is, "This is what I need you to do."

So, I think you are already getting a better idea about approaching her in a text message. Just to use the above quote as an example......you don't have to apologize for interrupting her day or bothering her. The only reason you would be texting her is b/c of business, so no need to sound apologetic. Saying, "would it be possible" is not wrong, by any means, but it kind of sounds like you are tip-toing around.....afraid she'll blow up at you. Some NG's have developed certain behavior patterns b/c their W has trained them to be scared of her moods/reaction, so he walks around on egg shells. My suggestion is to state the message, and maybe say "thanks" at the end of it. I see so many NG's on the board who are waaaaaay too chatty with all their nice text messages to the WW. It makes me nauseated...... (Ha!) Anyway, if it doesn't sound rude to your ears, it will probably be fine. If unsure, you can run it by the board. Bottom line...….if it gets you better results, then stick to what you were doing.

Oh, I almost forgot the main point in the text where you say, "This is what I need you to do". I assume you are referring to some type of business matter? If so, can you state it in a way that doesn't sound as if it is a personal favor you are requesting? You said it very nicely, but I can almost see her rolling her eyes when she reads, "what I need you to do". I don't how hardened her heart has become, but WW's can be cold and sarcastic. It might be better to just say something like, "'Would you have the utilities changed over to your name? Thanks." "Would you choose a phone plan before the next bill is due? Thanks". Does that sound too harsh? Maybe I am just splitting hairs trying to explain something simple. One of these guys on the board could use a half dozen words to communicate, where I have to use two hundred.

When texting your WW, especially if responding to one of her texts.....use as few words as possible and it may help cut out a lot of that nice, overly polite chit-chat. This is not the time frame to have chit-chat. That time frame comes later.

So I'm learning boundaries.

This part has me scratching my head. How does what you said tie in with boundaries?

As for leaving the dirty work to her, there are a couple of popular opinions on the board about it. One says if you don't want a D then do absolutely nothing to help with the paperwork, (some go as far as saying don't help dividing the stuff, separating accounts, or whatever). I've been on the board for a little over eleven years at this time, and I remember some LBH's giving each other this advice way back then. I actually think it (like a lot of other advice) gets passed down from person to person without explaining the why behind it. I don't believe it means you can't get legal advice or take precaution in protecting yourself. But that's just me. Then there is the other viewpoint that suggests you get things rolling so that you can better protect yourself and even move forward rather than feeling trapped or weighed down by her reluctance to do the actual work. I may not be stating it like someone else would, but I think that's basically it. How do I feel about it? (In case you wonder). I think there are some things that have to be determined by that individual person who wants to save his/her M, if at all possible. Taking in consideration the actions of the wayward spouse, it may be more painful to continue certain living arrangements than filing for a D. Each person has to make that decision. Although wayward spouse situations are similar in nature, there are still circumstances that can vary from stitch to stitch.

Wheeee,,,,,,,,I've talked your ears off today!

[hoosjim]

Saying, "would it be possible" is not wrong, by any means, but it kind of sounds like you are tip-toing around.....afraid she'll blow up at you. Some NG's have developed certain behavior patterns b/c their W has trained them to be scared of her moods/reaction, so he walks around on egg shells. My suggestion is to state the message, and maybe say "thanks" at the end of it. I

I disagree to a certain extent, here, though granted i myself am no expert wordsmith when it comes to women... WW's or otherwise. At any rate, i did a lot of reading during my ordeal, and continue to do some reading on relationship-type stuff, and attractiveness between the sexes, and keeping the spark alive and all that jazz, and one thing i can say for sure (and it is something that you really hipped me to, Sandi, back during the days i was struggling), is that the "Male dominance" dynamic works in a relationship. And i am not talking about the BDSM-type stuff from "50 shades", nor about uber-neanderthal-type male superiority stuff, but, rather, calm, confident, assertiveness by the male in a relationship. Even, dare i say, "demanding" when the situation calls or allows for it. Example: Alot of (maybe most?) men, when out at restaurant ordering food will say something polite and borderline questioning like "Could i have the ___________" or "Hmmm.. i think maybe i'd like to try the ____________, could i have that? And could i have it with_____________?" By contrast, the decisive male will simply say "I'll have the __________" or, even better, "I'll take the _____________. Extra rare." Think these are small shades of distinction? Think again. Women Eat. This. Stuff. Up. I know my wife does, and she has commented as such, though not specifically on the food ordering: "You just seem so much more decisive now than you used to be..."

I know making arrangements to retrieve items from your home, or other separation/divorce business is somewhat different than ordering food on a date, but.... I think i would still mitigate in favor of being as decisive/definitive as possible in your communications.

Burned:

Earlier today I caught myself thinking, "You know, 10% chance that OM really IS a great guy and has more to offer than I do in terms of what she really needs out of life." Then I realized that anyone who cheats on their W with a married woman CAN'T be a "great guy" no matter what. But since I know nothing about him, I have no idea what his weakness will end up being. My W is stubborn and if she could make a M with me last 10-11 years, she can probably do it with anyone, regardless of their weaknesses. If that's what she wants, good luck to her.

At the risk of violating my "I have forgiven OM and am moving on with my life" mantra, i will chime in, here:

In the annals of human endeavor, there are only two creatures lower than the one that would mess with another man's wife: 1) The one that currently also has a W of his own and 2) The one who is friends with the other man whose wife he is messing with. (Mine was #2) They are lower than whale scum... dont give him a second thought. You are way above his level just by being "you", and the new, improved "Burned" will blow such lowlifes as him off the highways of both romance and life.

There, ahhhh,.. Got that off my chest.

[burned]

Thanks! This confirms a lot of the stuff I've been trying to integrate into my sitch. The advice here is fairly consistent. And we all know I'm good at ignoring advice at times... And don't be afraid to hurt me. I whine a lot but I'm pretty resilient. Or at least that's how I see myself.

It's just another sort of paradox. I want to take steps to rediscover my sense of confidence, strength, etc. And at the same time remove as many "crutches" as I can so that she is free to deal with the consequences of her actions on her own. My habit during the MR, based on NGS and co-dependence, was to say, "Don't worry about it, that's annoying complicated stuff, I'm good at it, let me do it for you." Not anymore. It's freeing, in a way, to be able to say, "Not my circus, not my monkeys." And it really does send her the message that I respect her autonomy as an individual. BUT I guess the real reason for doing it isn't to expedite the process of her reality check. It's mostly for me.

Example: she was very proud of herself when, after spending an hour or two on the phone with her brother-in-law, she determined the reason why the lawnmower wouldn't start. I had already told her twice what she needed to do. But that was for me. I remember how angry I got when I realized she didn't NEED me to handle that for her. And Steve might remember how I flipped out when she asked me how to fix the thermostat. That's my turf. That's my NGS covert contract: I do this for you, you keep loving me. Not anymore. I won't do it for her.

I hear you about the "needs" thing. I've actually been pretty good at not overtly really telling her anything about my needs. But I've been told that a lot of my actions have been based on my needs, like, that it's just impossible to hide. Even the clinging, the pressure: the message is, "I don't care what YOU want, I NEED you to not leave me." She has even complained about that (during MC, for example). If you asked her what the #1 reason is that she wants to leave, it's that she was tired of having to carry the weight for both of us. And I don't know what I read, maybe something Coach said, about how people feel "safe" when they trust that the other person will stand strong. I totally missed that one. I was stuck on the word "safe" meaning "she isn't afraid I'll hit her." Maybe that was part of it but I think it was broader than that. So, in other words, my needs are on the back burner, I know that. You're right, what I'm dealing with now isn't an issue of needs, it's just business.

When I said "preparing for D" is really more like "separating our lives to reflect the reality of the situation." Maybe someone on here told me that, can't remember. Anyway, everyone wins: she gets the house to herself, I get my stuff, she gets to have her utilities (I do have to pay for them in the meantime, fine), I get to have my peace of mind, she finally gets the feeling that I'm really letting go. And I get some satisfaction that I'm reclaiming my b*lls.

As to the tone of the text messages, they're about as blunt as I can be without feeling like I'm being malicious. This is thanks to the advice I've been getting here. Example: "I am sending you a list of the bills and utilities that you will need to change to your own name and account." This is very different from how I would interact with her until the beginning of last week. And I like what you said about "being strong by being the one to make the difficult decisions" or something like that.

Just rambling. Mostly commenting on what I've been learning. Seems like once I started listening to the advice, things started to feel better. No idea if anything is truly different except that I feel like I'm regaining some control.

[burned]

Example: Alot of (maybe most?) men, when out at restaurant ordering food will say something polite and borderline questioning like "Could i have the ___________" or "Hmmm.. i think maybe i'd like to try the ____________, could i have that? And could i have it with_____________?" By contrast, the decisive male will simply say "I'll have the __________" or, even better, "I'll take the _____________. Extra rare." Think these are small shades of distinction? Think again. Women Eat. This. Stuff. Up. I know my wife does, and she has commented as such, though not specifically on the food ordering: "You just seem so much more decisive now than you used to be..."

Until literally right after I read this, I used to cringe when I would go to a restaurant with my dad. The server shows up and asks what we want. Not even "I'll have the ___." Just, "The steak," pointing at the menu. He has been married for 45 years. Lightbulb. Won't be cringing any more. For the record, he isn't rude, he says it with a smile and appreciative body language. Gotta channel some of that.

Burned:

Earlier today I caught myself thinking, "You know, 10% chance that OM really IS a great guy and has more to offer than I do in terms of what she really needs out of life." Then I realized that anyone who cheats on their W with a married woman CAN'T be a "great guy" no matter what. But since I know nothing about him, I have no idea what his weakness will end up being. My W is stubborn and if she could make a M with me last 10-11 years, she can probably do it with anyone, regardless of their weaknesses. If that's what she wants, good luck to her.

At the risk of violating my "I have forgiven OM and am moving on with my life" mantra, i will chime in, here:

In the annals of human endeavor, there are only two creatures lower than the one that would mess with another man's wife: 1) The one that currently also has a W of his own and 2) The one who is friends with the other man whose wife he is messing with. (Mine was #2) They are lower than whale scum... dont give him a second thought. You are way above his level just by being "you", and the new, improved "Burned" will blow such lowlifes as him off the highways of both romance and life.

This made my day. I'm looking forward to when I can tell myself this and believe it. In the meantime I'll rely on hearing it from the "grown-ups" as I like to call the vets.

[burned]

Journaling.

Emotional rollercoaster. Was feeling so confident and "water off a duck" last night. Survived a rough interaction with my boss, who can be a bully at times. Funny, those times when she is a bully always seem to be the times that I act weak. Hadn't figured that out until now (after 6 years here), probably because I had never had more reasons to be weak. Lesson learned. Anyway, I did EVERYTHING right and she still wasn't satisfied with the outcome. And after the initial standard fear-based response, I was able to tell myself, "I did everything right and she still wasn't satisfied. That's not my fault, I can't fix it, and it doesn't mean I'm a bad person." Got it. So I treated myself to a nice dinner (solo) at the Japanese restaurant. Trying out new assertive behaviors by saying hello to all of the staff as I passed by, with a big smile. Nothing to lose there, and I felt good about it.

Finally went to the orthopedist. Turns out I fractured my ankle in June, the day W asked for S so she could skrunk w/ OM. That would explain why it has been sore. W was right, I didn't always take great care of myself. NMMNG book made it clear to me that it's because I didn't think highly enough of myself to feel like it was worth it. Can't be respected by others if I don't respect myself.

On that note, after re-reading a couple more chapters in NMMNG, I had trouble falling asleep because I was all amped up and confident. Thinking to myself, "Yeah, WW thinks she's OK now but I'm the one who will really improve, and it will be her loss." Reflected on Hoosjim's recent post about his W's interactions with that doctor. So I got to thinking. And the first thing I thought was, "Wow, I screwed up REALLY badly after BD1. Continued to dig my own grave until BD2. Then took another 2 weeks to really DB." I definitely did some damage to the "road home." I mean when I thought about it I was mortified. The way I basically threw her under the bus. But. I'm learning to let go of past regrets, I guess. And then I got to thinking, she was so good at lying to me over the last year. What if there was another time? I'd never know. She'd never tell. And then I got to thinking, how could I ever trust this person again? Like, I'm putting in a heroic effort just to GET TO that point. Can't imagine if that would feel like progress. I'm starting to get a taste of the notion that maybe, like Dr. Glover says, it IS better to just ditch bad Rs and move on.

But I'm not there yet.

I AM, however, returning to the anger phase for a little bit of marinating there. BD1 was only when I realized it. But the entire A is WW behavior. I'm not acting like this is the first time I realized that, and people on here definitely told me that, I get it, I'm not denying it. But the idea that the whole of last year was just temp checks! Like, every time we had a good moment, all of her attempts to keep the M going...it was all for her. So that she could skrunk w/ OM and I could keep footing the bill. It's almost like, having realized that that's what had been happening since BD1, and then multiplying it by 3. Ugh. So again, how could I trust someone who is capable of doing that to me?

But I'll have to re-learn trust one way or another, either with her or with the next one.

She has to experience the fantasy crumbling. She is having an affair with a M man (if I don't have my stories confused), and she'll probably be facing some tough times. You can't break up two families and not experience some fallout somewhere.

Something Sandi said yesterday. W would argue that both families were already broken up, at heart, so all she did was call it like it is. But that's self-justifying garbage. But in my worser moments, I think to myself, W could get EVERYTHING she wanted: the D and a golden parachute pile of cash with which she could buy the house outright and still be able to pay for the rest of her education. We live in an area with a very low cost of living, and even then we have been living WAY below our means. So what fallout can there be? I've basically handed her the keys to a new, better life. And it's just about too late to turn it around.

Proof that I'm still in the "how is this affecting her" phase. I do feel like I'm getting better, but very gradually. I mean, you could argue that BD2 is the BD that counts, which was only a month ago, and I only really started DBing the right way within the last 2 weeks. So of course I need to be patient. I'm all over the place, one moment angry at her, one moment wishing she would suffer a little so that I don't feel like I'm the only one "losing" something. Hoping she won't do anything really stupid. Trying to stomach the notion that this is DONE done. It is, I know. But I'm only at 90% of accepting that.

And I need to resume the focus on myself. But with 4 hours of sleep 2 days in a row, pressure building at work, haven't been able to really exercise, reading books that are really forcing me to deal with my problems. Facing the prospect of having to go to the house, which is painful even to just drive by it (so I don't). Tired and feeling worn out. Hoping maybe later I'll feel more confident when I GAL. Tonight's GAL is either a "sip and paint" event, or my usual Thursday night gripe sesh with a coworker at the local brewpub. Either way I don't have to cook. Maybe I'll feel better after IC appt. tomorrow morning. It does kind of feel good to show him the progress I'm finally starting to make. But there goes NGS, trying to please and win approval.

OK, take a step back. Act despite the fear. Fatigue can be overcome, often by acting confident. I can do this.

[burned]

Also wondering why the less I respond to her the less she reaches out. Like, not responding to her temp check last week. I know it has only been a very short time, but I'd expect the temp checks to be increasing by now. Wondering if this is a familiar pattern to anyone.

Edit: I guess now that the semester is in full swing, she's probably super busy focusing on schoolwork. She's good at compartmentalizing, so she can easily keep me out of mind when she has to concentrate.

And really, burned, you're acting like you look forward to temp checks? Like that's better than nothing? Get it together, buddy.

[Twofeet]

Also wondering why the less I respond to her the less she reaches out. Like, not responding to her temp check last week. I know it has only been a very short time, but I'd expect the temp checks to be increasing by now. Wondering if this is a familiar pattern to anyone.

Because the fishing isn't so good and the burned fishing spot. You aren't taking the bait, she doesn't have you on the hook like she did before. Don't worry about it.

I was just thinking about your sitch. I don't know you, but if you can heal your ankle you should consider doing some athletic en devour that requires aggression. Such as boxing, kickboxing, muay thai, BJJ. Not some mom exercise class, but a serious gym or class. You will get in shape, learn self defense, meet new people and it will help you exude male confidence. Nothing like being confident that if sh!t hit the fan you would be ok. It would extend to your everyday life and probably help with your NGS. Just a thought.

[AnotherStander]

Example: Alot of (maybe most?) men, when out at restaurant ordering food will say something polite and borderline questioning like "Could i have the ___________" or "Hmmm.. i think maybe i'd like to try the ____________, could i have that? And could i have it with_____________?" By contrast, the decisive male will simply say "I'll have the __________" or, even better, "I'll take the _____________. Extra rare." Think these are small shades of distinction? Think again. Women Eat. This. Stuff. Up. I know my wife does, and she has commented as such, though not specifically on the food ordering: "You just seem so much more decisive now than you used to be..."

Amen! I've used this example before that is very similar to yours- old me: "Where do you want to eat?" "I don't know, what do you want?" Ummm, I don't know can't think of anything that sounds good right now." And on and on. After I read NMMNG I realized that not only was I being wimpy and indecisive, but that I was doing it because I was AFRAID I was going to suggest something my W didn't like and that she would be upset or angry. I mean as stupid as that sounds it's classic NGS at work. After reading the book I changed (with my GF because my W was gone at that point) to "Hey I'm in the mood for BBQ, let's go!" 9/10 times she's down for whatever I suggest, and the other 10% she might say "oh I had BBQ for lunch, can we do something else?" And of course we can, because it was a suggestion, not a demand. After months of this my GF told me "I love how decisive you are, you can't imagine how aggravating it is when someone doesn't even know what they want to eat." Shedding NGS isn't about being a demanding jerk, it's just about leadership and decisiveness. Not just about eating, but about anything. Be a leader, but keep in mind you are the leader of a team. Give direction but be flexible as well.

Also wondering why the less I respond to her the less she reaches out. Like, not responding to her temp check last week. I know it has only been a very short time, but I'd expect the temp checks to be increasing by now. Wondering if this is a familiar pattern to anyone

WHOOOOOO CAAAAAAAAAARES. Burned, read. Understand. All this great wisdom people are offering you is being heard by you, but not IMPLEMENTED. WHY DO YOU CARE THAT SHE IS REACHING OUT LESS??? You know why? Because you have EXPECTATIONS. You are thinking "I'm doing X, why isn't she doing Y?" You are still needy, desperate and clingy, all things that REPULSE her. Give her time and space. Quit putting her under a microscope. Stop the pursuit. You're even pursuing when you're trying to pull back.

And really, burned, you're acting like you look forward to temp checks? Like that's better than nothing? Get it together, buddy.

^^^Exactly^^^

[burned]

Twofeet, funny you mention that. When I weighed 230 (before BD) I was boxing twice a week with the trainer who comes to our office. Threw some heavy hits, that ankle did its fair share of work (I'm a righty).

Then BD, then started running on the treadmill like crazy. Dropped 40 pounds (mainly from not eating) but the damage was done.

But yeah. Maybe I'll get back into that when it heals.

[MoveFrwd]

I think to myself, W could get EVERYTHING she wanted: the D and a golden parachute pile of cash with which she could buy the house outright and still be able to pay for the rest of her education. We live in an area with a very low cost of living, and even then we have been living WAY below our means. So what fallout can there be? I've basically handed her the keys to a new, better life. And it's just about too late to turn it around.

My ex got the same. Enough money to be able to live on her own. Whatever stuff she wanted out the house. The childcare arrangement she proposed etc.

But she missed out on AMOAFWL2.0. And that guy is pretty awesome. So she can enjoy her house on the foundation of sand. Maybe it's great....maybe it isnt....doesnt really matter any more.

YOU are the catch. YOU are the prize.

Shes losing out on that. No matter how much money she gets or whatever, she is missing out on a great guy and trading him in for someone that is willing to cheat on his wife with someone else's wife.