Hey guys. New member here and first post. I have been doing a ton of reading on the boards and figured it was time for my first post. I am dealing with a classic WAW. Things were going well then suddenly out of the blue after our anniversary I got the I am unhappy and need space, I love you but am not in love with you, I hope we can remain close friends talk. I fell in to the what appears to be common state, became a complete mess, spent all my time trying to fix things and chasing her which I realize was the worst thing for me to do. After much reading on here my new plan is to GAL, be friendly to her when she initiates conversation but not going out of my way to keep conversation going or initiate it myself, really truly work on myself mentally, spiritually, and physically. Basically follow and stick to Sandi's guidelines. My biggest problem is keeping myself out of the traps. I find myself feeling like crap when she doesn't really react in any way to me and I am having a real hard time just taking a breath and walking away. It is really difficult to sit here next to someone I love so much who just doesn't seem to care about me. I am also having a really hard time convincing myself that this is the best method and may actually change how she feels about me. I appreciate all the advice from everyone on here and reading the success stories certainly is a help.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
Welcome to the club! I am in a similar sitch and also a newbie.
And one of the hardest things to do is now how to react to the things positive things she does. Because it makes me believe that we're trending in a positive way and I start to get my hopes up. Best of luck
Thanks for all the encouragment guys. Updated my signature with some of the requested details. LH19, to answer some of your questions I don't know who or what she has her eye on but yes she is doing all of the above. She is constantly going out with friends, obsessed with always looking her best, nails, eyelashes dressed up and makeup no matter where she is going. I was never one to ever look at her phone but the other night we were sitting on the couch and she was laughing at something on her phone. She told me about the funny clip she just watched that a friend posted on snapchat. I asked to see the clip and she began to act very funny and was very reluctant to show me anything on her phone. After fumbling around for a bit (like she was trying to hide what else was on her phone) she eventually showed me the clip.
Thanks for all the encouragment guys. Updated my signature with some of the requested details. LH19, to answer some of your questions I don't know who or what she has her eye on but yes she is doing all of the above. She is constantly going out with friends, obsessed with always looking her best, nails, eyelashes dressed up and makeup no matter where she is going. I was never one to ever look at her phone but the other night we were sitting on the couch and she was laughing at something on her phone. She told me about the funny clip she just watched that a friend posted on snapchat. I asked to see the clip and she began to act very funny and was very reluctant to show me anything on her phone. After fumbling around for a bit (like she was trying to hide what else was on her phone) she eventually showed me the clip.
Huge red flag. The number one sign of an A (whether EA or PA) is secretive phone and computer activity. Now here is the thing:
Unless an A crosses a boundary for you for which there is no return, then it changes NOTHING you should be doing. Keep working on you. I like that you said in your OP that you are improving physically, mentally, and spiritually. Great keep that up. Work in a lot of GAL. Continue to 180 on things that needed changing....and work on detaching. Read, learn, study, know and employ sandi's rules.
A or no A, keep on doing what you need to be doing.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
She is constantly going out with friends, obsessed with always looking her best, nails, eyelashes dressed up and makeup no matter where she is going. After fumbling around for a bit (like she was trying to hide what else was on her phone) she eventually showed me the clip.
Unfortunately this is all very predictable. Most likely an EA and most likely someone she works with. Is a affair a deal breaker for you? Like Steve said doesn't change anything but it is best to know what you are up against. It might be best for you to look into individual counseling also refereed to as IC.
Not going to lie you have a tough road ahead of you.
She is constantly going out with friends, obsessed with always looking her best, nails, eyelashes dressed up and makeup no matter where she is going. After fumbling around for a bit (like she was trying to hide what else was on her phone) she eventually showed me the clip.
Unfortunately this is all very predictable. Most likely an EA and most likely someone she works with. Is a affair a deal breaker for you? Like Steve said doesn't change anything but it is best to know what you are up against. It might be best for you to look into individual counseling also refereed to as IC.
Not going to lie you have a tough road ahead of you.
I 100% agree that it is an EA and it is for sure someone from work but this changes nothing as far as I am concerned. I want my wife back regardless of what is going on. Just have to keep making it through the day and really work on detaching as that is so far the hardest for me to achieve. I'm just going to keep going to the gym, keep on meditating and keep up the GAL.
Ryan, many (all?) of us can relate to your comments. Her actions are straight out of the WAS/WW handbook. ILYBINILWY, dressing up, going out, won't let her phone out of her sight, partying with friends/ enablers. It's all classic WAS behavior. Needy, desperate behavior on your part will NOT bring her back. Nothing you do will, all you can do is pull back and give her time and space. Be prepared to see some hurtful behavior because she will behave like she's in a "girls gone wild" video for quite a while. Cadet always says this is a marathon because that's exactly what it is. You won't see any changes in weeks or even months. It'll likely take a year or more for her to snap out of it. So settle in and be patient. Work on yourself and leave her alone.
My ex did all that stuff too. It took her about a year to stop the silliness and act her age again. It did not lead to reconciliation, her personality changed quite a bit and she never did "get back to normal". But she is more like her old self than she was after BD.
One of my ex's enablers left her H, moved out and acted like a college girl on spring break. Her H was like "you want to leave, well there's the door." He didn't do all the begging/ pleading/ placating that most of us did. He just went silent on her. She got a tattoo of a butterfly on her lower back with a phrase in Latin that translated to something like "she's finally free", LOL! 6 months later she was back home with her H like nothing ever happened. That was around 5 years ago and they are still together. Sandi is always talking about how she wishes more LBS's would take that kind of a "tough love" approach with a wayward because that is pretty much the only thing that works with them. The problem with most of us here is we are afflicted with NGS (nice guy syndrome) and are unable/ unwilling to take that approach.
AnotherStander, Thanks for the response. It took me a long time to figure it out but I realize that my reacting to her is just making things worse and pushing her further away. I am so determined to just stop, detach and not pay any attention to all the negative behavior. At this point she can do as she pleases and I will focus on myself. I know this is going to be a very long process and may not ever work. I have started taking more of the tough love approach and told her exactly what your friend told his wife " if you want to leave be my guest". She refused to entertain that idea but that doesn't really matter. I have put my foot down though and refuse to continue paying the majority of the bills. Again I was enabling her by allowing her all the freedom in the world and was essentially giving her extra money to go out and party by taking care of the household financials.
At this point she can do as she pleases and I will focus on myself. I know this is going to be a very long process and may not ever work.
Wrong. This approach ALWAYS works. What you have to do is change your definition of works. If by works you mean she will return to the MR and be full in, then yeah, that might not work. But if you mean that you will be better, stronger, and healthier....and OK no matter what. Then this approach ALWAYS works.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Wrong. This approach ALWAYS works. What you have to do is change your definition of works. If by works you mean she will return to the MR and be full in, then yeah, that might not work. But if you mean that you will be better, stronger, and healthier....and OK no matter what. Then this approach ALWAYS works. [/quote]
Steve, I should have been more specific, what I intended was that I am just not going to worry about what she does anymore and I am not going to react. I am not going to let her drag me down. I am just going to take care of myself and the kids and get on with life. If she eventually "wakes up" and returns great, if not then it is her loss. I am truly starting to love myself and realize my worth. No matter what the final outcome of all this is I am responsible for my own happiness and I am going to do things in life that make me happy.
Steve, I should have been more specific, what I intended was that I am just not going to worry about what she does anymore and I am not going to react. I am not going to let her drag me down. I am just going to take care of myself and the kids and get on with life. If she eventually "wakes up" and returns great, if not then it is her loss. I am truly starting to love myself and realize my worth. No matter what the final outcome of all this is I am responsible for my own happiness and I am going to do things in life that make me happy.
Yes, that's it exactly! If you start slipping then refer to that paragraph, because that's a great synopsis of the goal of DBing.
All I will add is that the sooner and better you stick to this plan, the sooner it will bring results. No guarantee, but this will make it last much shorter. Also, watch out for Tests. If she sees you detaching, many WW will test LBS to see if they still have power over you. Be prepared. Vent here.
The goal is reconciliation and I suggest you read about it. Anything less will bring you back here again.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Also, watch out for Tests. If she sees you detaching, many WW will test LBS to see if they still have power over you. Be prepared. Vent here.
This is a great tip and I am slowly learning to spot the tests and not react. They have been coming fast and furious and up until a few days ago I was falling for them.
I am so glad I found this community of people. It is a real shame we are all hear but I am so glad I reached out.
Ryan, I don't have much for advice since I'm going through a rough time with my own H and his issues, but do listen to everyone here on the detaching and taking care of yourself. At first I thought, "Yeah right, how the heck will that help me, I'm heartbroken and miserable." But it honestly does help YOU to become stronger and you learn about yourself in so many ways.
I've gotten a new job after years of being a SAHM, I volunteer at my son's school, I picked up old hobbies and I don't try to diagnose my H's issues anymore. I've caught up with old friends and found an incredible support system online and off with with my various friends. It was driving me crazy worrying about what H did until I just stopped caring as much and day by day I find myself moving forward with my son and spending less time worrying about how H feels. I did notice that the happier I get and happier I am with my life, the more he seems miserable and angry. I've stopped worrying about him, although his rudeness irks me. I cant fix him like I thought I could and I am fixing myself and trust me, if I can do this after it finally sunk into my stubborn head, you can do it too.
There are great people here that have great advice. It may feel like what they say is impossible to do but they are on the ball and are so awesome. ((hugs))
Together for 13 years, married for 8. H is 46 I'm 40 S is 6 Bombdrop in April 2018 Still in limbo as of 2019
The only point I would make is that I wouldn't discuss goals that involve the MR or the WW. That's pursuing. Action speaks louder than words. Rather than directly telling W what you are working toward work it into the casual daily convo. JM2C
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Ryan your situation is pretty much identical to what I recently went through, textbook WAW. My wife was indeed having an EA with a coworker, not to say I wasn't neglecting her needs, wasn't listening to her, wasn't validating her feelings, I accept that I was't being a great husband after 10 years of marriage. I did the old beg and plead thing at first, I think it's natural. Then I started reading, not only the boards here but other things, learning about my situation, and putting a plan into action to save my marriage. I straightened out, GAL, lost 20 lbs, and gave her the space she needed. I know how you feel about maybe this gives the wrong signals and it might push her further away, but it didn't for me. I was friendly, kept contact to a minimum and spoke to her as necessary (we have kids), listened to her when she was willing to talk, didn't push her when she wasn't. At first I had to pretend, it was really hard, I sought some IC which helped me a lot. There were many frustrating days for me. After some time pretending, I started to feel it, I started to realize that I was a worthy person, I forgave myself, tried harder to love myself, and I disconnected emotionally. I knew in my heart I was a better man than her coworker, after 11 years together truly she valued me far more than someone at work, I am the father of her kids. I had to go through a bit of a break down, but I hit a point where I was OK on my own. Suddenly she started to come around, yes it was a bit rocky, but she seemed interested in perhaps saving our marriage. Things are going quite well for us now, rather than simply loving my wife, I am "in love" with her, I love being around her and spending time with her, she's feeling the same towards me and showing it, the EA has ended, I never brought it up with her extensively, I only let he know I was aware after snooping in her phone, she was super mad about that, but for me it was the right thing to do, make her aware that I knew, she brought it up off and on especially when she was pulling back from it, and when she talked about it I never asked questions, pried, accused, was angry, I couldn't change it and I wanted my wife back and it is what it is. So keep your head up, GAL, love yourself, and others will love you. All the best.
Thank you so much for sharing your story with me and I am really glad that things turned around for you. I am having a rather difficult morning today and reading about your success couldn't have come at a better time. This is the hardest thing I have ever faced but I know that the most important thing is keeping my head up and loving myself.
Ryan, one thing that has helped me is the idea that I stop when I am having these bad moments/days and asked myself if this is just a temporary state of gloom and doom. It always is. And I commit to getting through that day. I always wake up feeling better the next morning. The dangerous thing is when you equate your feelings of well being with how your W responds to you. That is the tell-tale sign of the need to detach.
Stay strong. Read here and use the energy for self-improvement.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Thanks RR17. Today was a bit tough for me in that it was unnatural but I think anyways was good. I slept like crap last night (been on the couch since Sept16) but this morning I stood my ground. I didn't get angry but was confident and firm with the W that I wanted to sleep in the bed and that I was not going to suffer and loose sleep because of her decision to leave the marriage. Not sure if that was the best way to handle things but would appreciate everyone's feedback.
this morning I stood my ground. I didn't get angry but was confident and firm with the W that I wanted to sleep in the bed and that I was not going to suffer and loose sleep because of her decision to leave the marriage. Not sure if that was the best way to handle things but would appreciate everyone's feedback.
Perfect.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
That's the plan. I don't mean to sound like I'm trying to be mean or a jerk but I really think she needs to feel some of the pain from her decision to leave starting with sleeping somewhere else. I am beginning to think the only reason I got the "I really want to remain good friends" speech was because she wants to keep all the comforts I provide in her life and keep me around to make her life easier all while not having anything to do with a real relationship with me. She doesn't want rid of me she just wants specific things from me. I think she is trying to take advantage of me and I am determined to not allow that.
That's the plan. I don't mean to sound like I'm trying to be mean or a jerk but I really think she needs to feel some of the pain from her decision to leave starting with sleeping somewhere else. I am beginning to think the only reason I got the "I really want to remain good friends" speech was because she wants to keep all the comforts I provide in her life and keep me around to make her life easier all while not having anything to do with a real relationship with me. She doesn't want rid of me she just wants specific things from me. I think she is trying to take advantage of me and I am determined to not allow that.
This is straight out of the wayward wife playbook. "I want to go off and do whatever I want, but want you there to support me and do all the things a H is supposed to do." We call it wanting her cake, and eating it to. Take away her cake.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
That's the plan. I don't mean to sound like I'm trying to be mean or a jerk but I really think she needs to feel some of the pain from her decision to leave starting with sleeping somewhere else.
That needs to be her choice though. Don't kick her out of the bedroom, but don't leave it yourself either. Your attitude should be "I am sleeping in the bed, you can sleep here or you can sleep somewhere else, that's your choice." Same thing with separation, your attitude should be that you are staying and you hope she does too, but if she wants to leave you won't stop her. We call it "opening the cage door". A lot of WAS's feel like they are stuck in a cage, so the idea is to let them know you are not trapping them, they have the free will to stay or go.
When you get back in the bed expect one of two things. She will either go sleep somewhere else or she will sleep so far over on her side of the bed that you will swear she's developed some kind of hovering skill where she is defying gravity and sleeping on 2" of bed. Don't expect her to throw her arms around you and welcome you back to bed though, LOL!
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I am beginning to think the only reason I got the "I really want to remain good friends" speech was because she wants to keep all the comforts I provide in her life and keep me around to make her life easier all while not having anything to do with a real relationship with me.
or she will sleep so far over on her side of the bed that you will swear she's developed some kind of hovering skill where she is defying gravity and sleeping on 2" of bed. Don't expect her to throw her arms around you and welcome you back to bed though, LOL!
So true! LOL I remember early in my sitch I felt like if she got any further to the edge of the bed there would be a universal bed curve that means she'd start coming out on my side!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
That's the plan. I don't mean to sound like I'm trying to be mean or a jerk but I really think she needs to feel some of the pain from her decision to leave starting with sleeping somewhere else. I am beginning to think the only reason I got the "I really want to remain good friends" speech was because she wants to keep all the comforts I provide in her life and keep me around to make her life easier all while not having anything to do with a real relationship with me. She doesn't want rid of me she just wants specific things from me. I think she is trying to take advantage of me and I am determined to not allow that.
Perfect. You said it perfect. Now just make sure to calm down before you go into the bed because it will be emotional.
The good friends speech may be b/c of what you said, or just that she wants to let you down easy in this "breakup". Either way you are progressing nicely and you are doing the right thing.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
When you get back in the bed expect one of two things. She will either go sleep somewhere else or she will sleep so far over on her side of the bed
Make sure to get in bed before her. Read a book.
If she sleeps some place else, I would go out the next day, buy a "Manly" bed set. Maybe a Harley poster for the wall. Any questions get the "I decided I like this better" response. Then shut up.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
So true! LOL I remember early in my sitch I felt like if she got any further to the edge of the bed there would be a universal bed curve that means she'd start coming out on my side!
Intentional threadjack because we all need humor sometimes to get us through this. Just laughing at that phrase "universal bed curve" because everyone keeps talking about "time and space" and the whole thing feels like a quantum physics lecture that went completely off the rails.
H: 35 W: 33 M: 11 T: 13
4/10/18: I discovered A and confronted ("BD1") 6/23/18: I moved out 8/31/18: MC ends ("BD2")
Perfect. You said it perfect. Now just make sure to calm down before you go into the bed because it will be emotional.
This will be the tough part, I wish remaining calm and not letting this separation affect me was as easy to do as it is to say but I know over time it will get better. I'm am just getting started with the detaching process.
Ryan listen hard to Steve85 although my problems were shorter than some, I still have some problems, Steve gave me some solid advice and I appreciate that. And I am still exercising his advice.
Really feel like I need to get on here and brag a little because I am damn proud of myself tonight. Wednesday night WAW gets off work at 5:30 so I always take S7 to piano. I’m leaving the house and WAW calls, I don’t answer and proceed to get the kids loaded up in the car and head off to piano. Accomplishment #1 I didn’t answer my phone (giving myself a pat on the back). About 20 minutes later WAW calls again as I am sitting in the parking lot of piano. I let it ring several times but eventually answered. She was touching base regarding schedule for the night and asked if she could go to the gym. I advised her that I planned on going to the gym after the kids were in bed but I would be happy to get my son from piano, get the kids fed and would see her at their bedtime to put the kids to bed together then I would head to the gym. Needless to say the whole thing was trap but I didn’t fall for it, accomplishment #2. 8:45 rolls around, I have now done everything by myself to get the kids to their activities, get them dinner and get them to bed. Plus I now don’t have time to get the gym and get in a proper workout since hey close at 10. WAW comes home and asks me if I am going to the gym and I confidently, without any yelling or any of my typical angry miserable previous reactions calmly stated “ I’m looking at the clock and it is now 8:50. At 5:40 you called me and we discussed the schedule for the evening and the plan was you were going to the gym, we would both put he kids to bed at 8:00 and then I could go to the gym. It is now three hours later and I don’t have time because they are closed soon. I feel angry, disrespected, undervalued and above all genuinely disappointed. I need you to understand that my time is valuable and I deserve basic courtesy from you regardless of being separated”. Then I turned around, put on my runners and went for a hour long jog.
Boy does it feel good to do a 180 and remain calm all while confidently stating what I want and deserve.On another note I began reading No More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert Glover. While extremely depressing at first because it explains a lot about me and why WAW feels the way she does I feel good about finally working on myself and becoming a better person that I can love.
Being calm is good. Allowing WAW to Cake Eat is not.
Just make sure that remaining calm doesn't turn into passive aggression.
I think one thing that is difficult to grasp in DBing is the Confident Decisive Masculin energy that many LBSs need to re-embrace or embrace for the first time, in some cases.
A Confident Decisive man doesn't get upset over little things. He also doesn't allow WAW to walk over him.
It is a mindset and takes time. Good job on handling business. Don't let her take advantage of you.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
RR17, I think you hit the nail on the head with the confident decisive masculine energy. I think this is the key and I can't speak for anyone else but I completely lost mine, thought it was gone for good, didn't even know where to begin getting it back but my mindset, my self help work are naturally bringing it back and it feels great.
Bit of a rough morning today. Not sure why, just feeling a bit down this morning. Last night was another night at home taking care of the kids on my own. WAW went to the grocery store and didn't return for 3 hours. I did manage to not react when she got home, just said hello and smiled, went and got ready for bed and went to sleep. With time I know it will be easier to not think about what she is doing but it sure is tough right now.
LH, No set days scheduled but I am getting out of the house. For example last weekend I made plans to go out tonight so I communicated that Friday I had plans and would not be home. For the most part though things are just kind of done on the fly. Perhaps I should come up with some sort of set schedule though with my gym time, going out days etc. and present it to her?
I'm finding the being out of the house part really hard. I love just sitting at home quietly, reading, watching a movie, being with the kids. But being out is something I am going to have to get used to. I think a good place to start would be heading to a coffee shop to do my reading.
I’m leaving the house and WAW calls, I don’t answer
OK, so many LBS's that come here listen to all the advice about detaching, pulling back, giving the WAS time and space and INSTANTLY think that means don't ever answer the phone, don't reply to texts and blow them off at every opportunity. That is NOT what Michele means. She simply means quit pursuing. If SHE calls then answer. If SHE texts then answer. Don't initiate yourself, that's all. Also don't get into long convos, just address the business she's contacting you about and let her go. If you just completely shut down on her then guess what she thinks, you are being a cold, indifferent, uncaring jerk.
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She was touching base regarding schedule for the night and asked if she could go to the gym. I advised her that I planned on going to the gym after the kids were in bed but I would be happy to get my son from piano, get the kids fed and would see her at their bedtime to put the kids to bed together then I would head to the gym.
It doesn't sound like you made it clear to her that you expected her to work out and be home by a certain time.
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Needless to say the whole thing was trap but I didn’t fall for it, accomplishment #2.
A trap?? How so? She simply asked if she could go to the gym, sounds like she was being respectful of your time by asking instead of just going. You may have heard that saying "to a man with a hammer everything looks like a nail". Well to an LBS everything looks like a conspiracy orchestrated by the WAS. LBS's can be very, very paranoid. That's a byproduct of BD, but try not to be.
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8:45 rolls around, I have now done everything by myself to get the kids to their activities, get them dinner and get them to bed. Plus I now don’t have time to get the gym and get in a proper workout since hey close at 10. WAW comes home and asks me if I am going to the gym and I confidently, without any yelling or any of my typical angry miserable previous reactions calmly stated “ I’m looking at the clock and it is now 8:50. At 5:40 you called me and we discussed the schedule for the evening and the plan was you were going to the gym, we would both put he kids to bed at 8:00 and then I could go to the gym.
Do you know what a "covert contract" is? Google it if you're not familiar with it. It's also discussed at length in No More Mister Nice Guy. It sounds like that's what you had in place. You never asked her what time she was going and she never offered a time (at least not that you mentioned). Here's the deal, an "agreement" is an "offer" and an "acceptance". It would go something like this:
W- Can I go to the gym tonight? You- I plan on having the kids in bed by 8:30 and was going to head to the gym after that, can you get your workout in before then and be home so that I can go after? W- Yes that works for me.
That is an offer from you, and an acceptance from her. Now when you have an "agreement" and she doesn't meet the terms, THEN you have a right to be upset or angry. But it doesn't sound like you had an agreement, you just made some ambiguous statements that developed into a covert contract. Be very, very careful of covert contracts, it's a form of control and manipulation. Punishing someone for a covert contract that they know nothing about just causes anger, resentment and confusion.
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It is now three hours later and I don’t have time because they are closed soon. I feel angry, disrespected, undervalued and above all genuinely disappointed. I need you to understand that my time is valuable and I deserve basic courtesy from you regardless of being separated”. Then I turned around, put on my runners and went for a hour long jog.
So you got a workout in after all. So why all the negative comments to her? Could you not have just said "it's too late for me to get to the gym before they close, I'm going for a run instead. Next time I'll try to communicate better, sounds like we had a misunderstanding about what time you needed to be home."
KEEP THE WAY HOME PAVED AND SMOOTH. What does that mean? It means don't drag them down the road (pursuit) but it means don't be cold and indifferent either. You can't MAKE her come back to the M, but you can make it EASIER for her to come back. OK?
Just a little more on texting- the idea is to not be immediately available all the time. The point is to make her think you're getting a life. The method is to sometimes reply right away, sometimes later, and sometimes (if it's nothing important) not at all. BUT, here's the thing. If she knows where you are, it doesn't make you mysterious. IE, if she knows you're at piano lessons and texts you and you don't reply she's not going to think "wow, what is he doing, he's so mysterious now!" So it works best when you are off GAL'ing and she doesn't know where you are or what you are doing. Don't just leave, but for example you might say "hey I have plans Thursday night from 8 to 11, do you mind watching the kids?" And then go meet friends or whatever, and if she texts then don't reply right away. See the difference?
AnotherStander, I appreciate the feedback. Most of what you touched on is more detailed about what actually happened. Working on journalling and accurately getting my thoughts and details down on paper is something i need to work on. Specifically on the gym thing, It was clearly discussed that we would put the kids to bed together at 8 and she showed up at 9:45 and that was what I expressed being upset about to her. I could care less about not making the gym, as you stated I went for a jog and felt great. I also failed to mention in my original post that I expressed clearly why I was upset to her and it was all about the time part and not anything to do with the not going to the gym.
On the not answering calls part: Again I'm lacking detail in my explanation and I think that is causing confusion. My intention is not being so available and this is one of my 180's. I am not shutting down and am still speaking to her when spoken to and being friendly and cheerful. Previously I would answer the phone by the second ring. Text messages were replied to in minutes. I am not ignoring her calls or messages just DE-prioritizing them.
Sorry for any of the confusion and again thanks for the feedback. I have a very long road a head of me and much to learn.
You don't de-prioritize the communication method, but the content of the communication. AS gave pretty clear indication of what that means. You can still be unavailable even if you pick up the phone. It all matters on subject matter of the communication. Is she calling/texting about kids? You get to those in a timely manner as you are also a parent. Other stuff is dependent on the subject matter. For e.g., I only answer stuff around kids and the house and finances (it's all sorted now so it's just about the kids). I only initiate convo if it's about the kids and I stay proactive on that to keep a good co-parenting relationship.
Outside of that, nada. You 180 on your availability by setting boundaries and letting her know that in a polite way. If she's blowing up your phone because she needs you to run some errand for her. Well, you pick up the phone and tell her nicely that you don't do that anymore, instead of ignoring the call. Take charge of what is acceptable and unacceptable to you.
Also, picking up her call on the second ring or the fifth ring is of little consequence. You still had to pick up the phone and deal with whatever she wanted to talk about. Stop focusing on minutae like this and tackle the meat of the issue - the content of the communication.
Was having a rough day yesterday and want to express appreciation for everyone's feedback. I feel amazing today and think I have finally sort of figured some of this stuff out. I could be wrong but I think I have made a great step forward and that;s basically that I don't care anymore. Before you read too far into that let me clarify. It is not that I don't care about my family, it is not that I don't care about my wife and it is not that I don't want my relationship to work. I came to the realization that I am better then this. I have made mistakes in my marriage, I have not been the best husband that I could be. But you know what, who has? I am human and I make mistakes and I learn from them. Last night I went out and met some amazing people/friends. It was a two fold night that included GAL and ended up including a lot of self help and something just clicked. I still have a ways to go in the area of self help but I am starting to love myself again. I realized that I am not so bad. I realized that I am a great person, great father and have a ton to offer. Most importantly I realized that I deserve better and I deserve to be loved to. I realized that I am not wrong to want the kind of intimate, connected, passionate relationship that I want. Most importantly I realized that right now that isn't possible with my W. I have a clear vision of who I want to be and what I want and ultimately if W can't see that and wants to walk away from that then she has to live with that decision. One day she will realize what she is missing out on. I hope when that day comes it isn't to late but I am moving forward and I am going to be fine no matter what happens.
Moving forward with DB'g: I am simply going to be my happy friendly self. I am slowly getting my confidence back and I am going to continue working on myself for myself. I am not going to let the outcome of my marriage affect me in any way. I am going to be friendly and kind because that's the kind of person I am and regardless of what comes my way I'm going to stick to that. For too long I have let others around me impact my feelings and mood and finally recognize that what others do or feel around me or towards me has nothing to do with me and shouldn't really impact me in any way. I want to make some improvements to myself but accept myself for who I am, am proud of who I am and am truly letting go of other peoples attitudes and negativity, friends, family and the W. I am me, accept me for who I am or head the other direction.
AnotherStander, I appreciate the feedback. Most of what you touched on is more detailed about what actually happened. Working on journalling and accurately getting my thoughts and details down on paper is something i need to work on. Specifically on the gym thing, It was clearly discussed that we would put the kids to bed together at 8 and she showed up at 9:45 and that was what I expressed being upset about to her. I could care less about not making the gym, as you stated I went for a jog and felt great. I also failed to mention in my original post that I expressed clearly why I was upset to her and it was all about the time part and not anything to do with the not going to the gym.
On the not answering calls part: Again I'm lacking detail in my explanation and I think that is causing confusion. My intention is not being so available and this is one of my 180's. I am not shutting down and am still speaking to her when spoken to and being friendly and cheerful. Previously I would answer the phone by the second ring. Text messages were replied to in minutes. I am not ignoring her calls or messages just DE-prioritizing them.
Sorry for any of the confusion and again thanks for the feedback. I have a very long road a head of me and much to learn.
I am in a similar situation with my WAW and I can't help but to feel like you. Like I am being taken advantage of my DB coach told me that if you're doing something out of self respect instead of doing it to spite someone. For example, "Hey I don't feel that it's fair that I always have to watch the kids or that you don't show up on agreed times" versus "You're so inconsiderate all you think about is yourself" "For now on I'm going to purposely be late to give you a taste of your medicine"
Had a great weekend detaching, GAL’ing and self mprovement. Man does it feel good to do something for myself. Spent 4 hours Saturday night at the mall shopping. Bought some new outfits, something I have’t done in 8 years. Got some new shoes and today went and got a haircut. I was scared to death but I put my fears to the side and took a leap of faith with a totally different style haircut. I must say I look and feel like a million bucks. I haven’t felt this good and had this much confidence in as long as I can remember. Really working hard on my “No more Mr. Nice Guy”, focused on my physical and mental health and am generally just focused on working on myself and it is paying off big time for me. I am at times a bit sad realizing everything about me that is not so great but at the same time I feel really good because I now recognize all these things am am making huge changes in my life.
I feel amazing today and think I have finally sort of figured some of this stuff out. I could be wrong but I think I have made a great step forward and that;s basically that I don't care anymore.
Slooooooow down! You've been told this is a marathon and here's the deal- that's exactly what it is. You're about 2 weeks in which means you've taken about 1 step in that marathon. You've barely stepped over the STARTING line! I promise you this- you still care and to say that you don't just means you're in denial. Everyone here goes through that denial phase early on, but that is not healthy because what it means is you're taking all those emotions and feelings and burying them behind a wall of denial. Guess what happens though, they keep piling up on the other side of that wall until the wall collapses right on top of you! The ONLY way is THROUGH. You've got to feel the hurt and pain and suffering to recover. After you read DR, read The Happiness Trap. It was very helpful to me in understanding my feelings better and how to deal with them.
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Before you read too far into that let me clarify. It is not that I don't care about my family, it is not that I don't care about my wife and it is not that I don't want my relationship to work. I came to the realization that I am better then this. I have made mistakes in my marriage, I have not been the best husband that I could be. But you know what, who has? I am human and I make mistakes and I learn from them. Last night I went out and met some amazing people/friends. It was a two fold night that included GAL and ended up including a lot of self help and something just clicked. I still have a ways to go in the area of self help but I am starting to love myself again. I realized that I am not so bad. I realized that I am a great person, great father and have a ton to offer. Most importantly I realized that I deserve better and I deserve to be loved to. I realized that I am not wrong to want the kind of intimate, connected, passionate relationship that I want. Most importantly I realized that right now that isn't possible with my W. I have a clear vision of who I want to be and what I want and ultimately if W can't see that and wants to walk away from that then she has to live with that decision. One day she will realize what she is missing out on. I hope when that day comes it isn't to late but I am moving forward and I am going to be fine no matter what happens.
All that is great but I will just say again, you are trying to rush the recovery process. Recovery takes a long time, it is a slow and difficult process. Don't expect that you can just throw a switch and you're there. Would be awesome if it was that easy!
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I am simply going to be my happy friendly self. I am slowly getting my confidence back and I am going to continue working on myself for myself.
Great.
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I am not going to let the outcome of my marriage affect me in any way.
It can and should affect you in very deep and meaningful ways. Regardless of the outcome this should be a learning experience for you and be a trigger to do some deep self-reflection and rebuilding.
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I am going to be friendly and kind because that's the kind of person I am and regardless of what comes my way I'm going to stick to that.
I think I suggested "No More Mister Nice Guy" earlier, do put it on your reading list. What you describe here is the NG mindset, which isn't a healthy one. We all experience a wide range of emotions every day and it serves no one to bury them behind a "nice and friendly" facade. A lot of NMMNG is working on being more "real" with people and just being yourself instead of who you think you should be or who you think others want you to be.
AnotherStander, Perhaps you are right and this is some sort of happiness trap but currently I'm not so sure it is. It is hard to explain and perhaps saying I don't care is incorrect. I do care a great deal, about my wife, about my family about everything. But I don't really care about the outcome of this. I would certainly prefer if one day my wife came to me and said that she had second thoughts about divorce and wanted to work on things, that would be amazing. But I am at a point where I really know that I will be OK regardless of the outcome. It will be hard, especially on the kids and again not the outcome I would prefer but in the end I will be OK.
For me to say the outcome isn't going to affect me in any way was wrong and you are 100% correct. In reality it is and currently it is honestly one of the best things that has happened to me. The thought of divorce has caused me to take a hard look at myself and while the things I am learning are not the greatest looking back the fact that I recognize them and am begining to correct them is the best thing ever looking forwards.
I am currently working on NMMNG and am working hard at it. I am a kind person and am going to continue to be but for myself. I am working on remaining kind but within my newly discovered boundaries. I am not letting people take advantage of me, I am not doing things I do not really feel good about doing for the sake of pleasing the other person. I am still being a kind person though but for me and because of me. Still have a long ways to go on this subject as well though.
M 53 W 54, M since 98 D15, D19 8/2013 discovered EA, W maintained contact with OM until 10/14 7/2/17 W said she wanted S, 7/25/17 moved out of MBR 12/17 W says moving out 5/18, W still in home.
Perhaps you are right and this is some sort of happiness trap but currently I'm not so sure it is. It is hard to explain and perhaps saying I don't care is incorrect. I do care a great deal, about my wife, about my family about everything. But I don't really care about the outcome of this. I would certainly prefer if one day my wife came to me and said that she had second thoughts about divorce and wanted to work on things, that would be amazing. But I am at a point where I really know that I will be OK regardless of the outcome. It will be hard, especially on the kids and again not the outcome I would prefer but in the end I will be OK.
That's a great place to be and you are saying all the right things. Mainly I'm just trying to warn you that you are going to experience a lot of highs and lows over the coming months and to prepare yourself for it. I spent a lot of time convincing myself I was OK and that I had accepted things, and I really thought I had. Then about 3 or 4 months after BD I suddenly went into severe depression and started having crazy anxiety attacks, two things I had never experienced in my life! There was no trigger to explain the timing, it just happened. It took months to recover from that, and it was the roughest few months I've ever experienced, worse even than the months after BD. I suspect that my trying to convince myself that I was OK and burying all my feelings was what caused it. On the outside I thought I was OK but inside there was a massive storm brewing.
I can say now that with the benefit of time (years in my case) you are able to see your sitch much more clearly than when you are going through it. We tend to try and convince ourselves that we've recovered when we're still far from it. We tell ourselves we've dropped the rope while still clenching it tightly behind our backs. 3 Months post BD I would have told you I dropped the rope. 6 months post BD I would have told you I was a fool to think that, but that by then I really HAD dropped it. Then a year later, once again I would have realized that no, I STILL had not dropped it at 6 months. Realistically it takes 1 to 2 years to well and truly drop the rope and get to the point where you really are OK with the sitch you're in and know you will be fine no matter what. People who can recover from this in weeks or a few months were probably not fully invested in their M to begin with.
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I am currently working on NMMNG and am working hard at it. I am a kind person and am going to continue to be but for myself.
Great! And there's nothing wrong with being kind. A lot of us here are recovering or reformed NGs and hey, we really are nice guys! But the point of the book is that a lot of "nice guys" are very passive/ aggressive, tend to hide their true feelings, and establish covert contracts over all things great and small. So the goal is to minimize the bad traits and keep the good ones.
Thanks I really appreciate all the feedback I am getting. I am sure there probably will be lots of ups and downs and I don't doubt some anxiety/depression will eventually pop up and hopefully I am prepared to deal with that. I imagine that after a couple months and not really seeing any changes in my spouses reaction towards me (if that happens) that the sadness may try and return but I'm trying to best prepare myself for those kinds of situations. Best case WAW takes some notice and begins expressing interest in working on the marriage, worst case things continue as they are and we remain strangers in the same house. But at least I am working on myself and am thankful for my three amazing kids and all the fun we have together.
I'll just echo AS here. There will be some serious ups and downs in the process. I also fell into a serious depression about 4 months post BD - for me it was triggered by heading back home after months away and by realizing the hopelessness of the sitch. It was really rough. I had been feeling very good in the preceding week and hit me especially hard because I thought I had broken through. Those things happen, and probably will happen again in the future.
My hope is that the ups and downs, which still occur, are smoothed out and trending upwards. I still have negative thoughts or memories at times but am able to let them go.
Overconfidence and denial are always things to be on the lookout for, and I'm still a newbie in this process overall. AS is probably right that the process takes faaaaar longer than we think when we are in it. For me it is all about focusing on being present and living in the moment.
It sounds like you are in a good place thus far Ryan, keep working it.
W 34 Me 42 Married 7 years together 8 0 kids 1 beloved dog BD 4/6/2018 I moved out 4/7/2018 I moved back in alone 8/05/2018 I file 3/06/2019 D official 5/7/2019
Ready2Change, I think that is primarily why I feel so good at the moment. I did see the link you posted earlier in this thread and read the whole thing. I have also been looking at other resources and really am getting my mojo back and it is helping massively. I am doing this for myself but also to make myself more attractive but apparently those two kind of go hand in hand. Hopefully W notices and some glimmer of that attraction comes back for her. If not well eventually I will likely want to start dating again and will need to be attractive when that time comes. I really think all this comes down to hoping for the best with our spouse but preparing for the worst.
R2C, I picked up on coaches posts right away and reading through his posts had an immediate and profound impact on my direction and the happiness and drive that I currently have. I really am not worried about the outcome of my marriage. For obvious reasons the preferred outcome would be to reconcile but at this moment I know that I will be OK no matter what happens in the end. There is one relationship in my life that the outcome is critically important and that is my relationship with myself. Looking at myself even as recently as two weeks ago I was not the person I want to be. Today not much has changed with that except for the fact the I recognize the issues and am taking steps to improve those items and that simple fact has inspired a new found love for myself.
Just got finished up with my first telephone coaching call. It was very helpful to get the experts point of view which pretty much confirmed most of what has already been discussed in this thread. One thing that was very helpful was clarification on how i should be around her at the house. Basically it was suggested that I treat her like she is a house guest staying for a visit. More or less what I have been doing the last week and a half as it is. So plan for now is basically keep plugging away with working on myself, GAL, and detaching.
Well rough night last night and so far rough morning today and am looking for some external opinions on stuff. One thing that has been very clear this last month since W announced her plans for a separation is that she had no real idea or plan in place as to what that would look like or the reality of the situation. Last night when I got home from the gym she was in attack mode. I did slip up a few times but for the most part maintained my new found skills and didn't really get into it and stuck to my boundries. This morning she called and wants to discuss living arrangements and expenses moving forward. It quickly became apparent though that this wasn't going to be a discussion rather more of a this is how things are going to be. Now most of the items I am not Ok with and will not likely agree to. One issue though I am really torn because it involves the kids. WAW's plan is what they call a nesting arrangement. Basically we keep the house, get a secondary residence of some sort and alternate back and forth. Would this really be better for the kids? Perhaps. But this sounds like a terrible arrangement for myself and the W. First off financially it would be hard. Second we would essentially be living out of a suitcase for the foreseeable future. Then there are all the other issues, she is a very messy person so now I would have two places to try and keep clean myself. She is terrible with money management so there is that massive problem hanging over my head. What do we do about groceries and food etc. This seems like a bad way to live and I'm not so sure it really would be better for the kids. I am wondering if any of you guys have first hand experience with this kind of living arrangement and what everyone's thoughts are?
Sounds like a bad plan to me. I am sure you will hear the same from others but if she wants space she can go get her own place and have her space. If it is a financial burden then you shouldn't contribute to a second living space. My WW and I have been in inhouse separtaion but we have a spare bedroom in the basement with a full bath so I don't mind it at all. Have to look at what is best for kids and that moving around is not in their best interest.
Not sure your financial sitch but I would stay put. I doubt you are required to contribute if she wanted to move out unless there was something legal in place.
H-50 W-48 T-19 M -18 S23, S14 BD - 5/9/2018 OM discovered 5/10/2018
In house sep - 8/18/2018 Rope drop 2/15/2019 R'ing since 3/15/2019
I know it is hard to think about but look at what you can afford alone if that will be the end game and whether you can afford to stay where you are if she left. Rule of thumb here always seems to be......You want your space, go get your space, don't expect me to contribute and don't make it more difficult for the kids.
H-50 W-48 T-19 M -18 S23, S14 BD - 5/9/2018 OM discovered 5/10/2018
In house sep - 8/18/2018 Rope drop 2/15/2019 R'ing since 3/15/2019
lost8, I agree, I think I would rather be on my own. This "Nesting" idea kind of sounds like more "having her cake and eating it to". But then add the kids to the mix and maybe it would be better for them. I will have to do some serious thinking about what situation would be best.
Is the a trial separation? If it is, then I think Nesting is a good option. If it is not and you are headed right for D then I would and have passed on that option. The kids will eventually have to get use to living in two separate houses.
Just to be clear, nesting is the best option for the kids. Their world gets minimally disturbed.
I nested. I would go to parents house. I believe she went to friends house.
I would not get a second place.
Give her two options:
1) Nesting at freinds house. 2) She gets her own place.
Let her know that you do not want either of these, but if it is the ONLY WAY FOR HER TO BE HAPPY, you will support her. And the parenting is split 50%.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
FWIW, I did go through a couple months of a nesting arrangement. I couldnt deal well with living in the same house as my ex-WW and pushed for the separation to start earlier than she could get a second place. So we did the nesting arrangement for about 2 months before she planned to move out. Luckily, we each have family and friends nearby and spent that time in guest rooms and couches and such.
I can see both sides of the coin for the arrangement. I think the kids having as much stability as possible during a time of upheaval is definitely a positive. My kids didnt leave the home during that time, and I was able to keep the place after my XW left, so theyve at least had a constant touchpoint. If you wind up selling the house anyway, maybe it's less important. Ultimately, I think it comes to finances - Can she afford a second place to go and which can be furnished to be living with the kids? My ex and I couldnt really set up a second living space quickly and it didnt make sense for the times when she had them for her to be couch surfing with them or whatever.
The key to making nesting work (which we did a poor job) is setting some ground rules at each place regarding cleaning, chores, etc. My ex was in our main house on garbage day and didnt take anything out over the course of a month ::eyeroll:: Of course, she didnt mow the lawn or clean the sheets, grocery shop or whatever either. I dont know that it's the worst arrangement as 1) you can live your own life without focusing on every little thing she does and 2) it gives you a chance to work together and collaborate.
LH, That's the problem I don't know what this is? She has made it clear she wants a separation so i would say this is not a trial. But that's where all my confusion comes in because she doesn't seem to have any real direction either way and all the wayward spouse stuff comes into play. I get all the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" , the "I really hope we can be best friends" then comes the "I don't feel that way about you and we will never work" and the "I need space away from you". I have offered she take all the space she needs, that if she wants to live on her own that I won't stop her. I have advised her that she needs to do what she feels is right and I won't do anything to stop that. But then she refuses, says she's not going anywhere, says she's not leaving the kids. I then clarify that I am not saying anything about leaving the kids that I am saying if she wants out of our marriage then she is free to go. I really don't think she knows what she wants.
I don't see how nesting could possibly work in our situation based on how W is when it comes to housework and finances, we can't afford a second place, and I don't really think there is a place either of us can go to stay while the other person is in the house. But it seems she doesn't want to hear any of this or actually do some research on any of the above situations. Everything currently is just made off of knee jerk reactions without looking at the big picture or the inner workings of any of the options in front of us. Currently we have been living in the same house, in separate bed rooms raising the kids and things were going well so I'm not sure why the sudden urgency to start proceeding in the first place.
I hate to be the one to break the news to you but it is more then likely so she can be with another man. Refresh my memory. Is there a confirmed OM in your sitch?
Also, all her decisions are based on emotions and not logic and reason.
LH, There is currently not a confirmed Om but I gave resigned myself to the fact that there very likely is something on the side here and accept that fact. I am not sure if it is a physical or emotional affair or if one exists period but it certainly seems that way. So I find myslef stuck between a rock and a hard place. I plan to stick with what I am working on including Gal, DB'ing, self improvement mentally, self improvement physically, looking my best, looking after the kids and accepting what I cannot change.
H"This is not working for me either. Share with me your plan IN WRITING on how we solve this. I will review it and get back to you when I have made a decision"
Originally Posted by RyanHun
I don't see how nesting could possibly work in our situation
Ask wife to draw out her plan and email it to you for your review.,
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based on how W is when it comes to housework
Time for her to put on her big girl pants.
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and finances, we can't afford a second place,
Ask her to draw up a budget so you can see how she thinks this will look financially.
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But it seems she doesn't want to hear any of this or actually do some research on any of the above situations.
Perfect. Do not do any work toward this. Let her do the work.
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Everything currently is just made off of knee jerk reactions without looking at the big picture or the inner workings of any of the options in front of us.
Always respond with "I will review this. I will let you know what I have decided.
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Currently we have been living in the same house, in separate bed rooms
Are you sleeping in the nicest room?
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raising the kids and things were going well so
The truth? Your opinion?
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I'm not sure why the sudden urgency to start proceeding in the first place.
I would bet OP.
Originally Posted by RyanHun
This morning she called
Why did you answer?
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and wants to discuss living arrangements
Why did you continue?
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and expenses moving forward.
"I am busy. We can talk later"
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First off financially it would be hard.
Logic does not work. Divorce is financially devastating for all involved.
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Second we would essentially be living out of a suitcase for the foreseeable future.
Her choice let her feel how this skucs.
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Then there are all the other issues, she is a very messy person so now I would have two places to try and keep clean myself.
180 Do not clean up her mess. Set a boundary. Enforce the boundary. Do this with the kids as well. "Anything I have to pickup on trash day is doing into the trash." is the mindset.
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She is terrible with money management
Her problem. Separate as much as possible.
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What do we do about groceries and food etc.
Aks her for her plan
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This seems like a bad way to live
It is.
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and I'm not so sure it really would be better for the kids.
None of this is good for the kids. Wife is in selfish mode. You are the one standing up for the family.
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I am wondering if any of you guys have first hand experience with this kind of living arrangement and what everyone's thoughts are?
Don't Do it.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
There is currently not a confirmed Om but I gave resigned myself to the fact that there very likely is something on the side here and accept that fact. I am not sure if it is a physical or emotional affair or if one exists period but it certainly seems that way.
There is. Real or imaginary. Time will answer this question.
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So I find myself stuck between a rock and a hard place.
This is vague. Elaborate and clarify.
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I plan to stick with what I am working on including Gal
What are the next 3 GAL you have planned?
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DB'ing,
What new changes are you planning?
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self improvement mentally
What techniques are you using for this?
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self improvement physically,
You are working out. How often?
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looking my best,
What specific changes have you made? Any others you want?
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looking after the kids
Enjoy every moment. Take mental snapshots. 10 years goes by really fast.
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and accepting what I cannot change.
What can you change? Changing the way you interact is critical. List out the ways you have changes your interaction. List out areas of improvement.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
H"This is not working for me either. Share with me your plan IN WRITING on how we solve this. I will review it and get back to you when I have made a decision"
Working on this, part more since last night.
Originally Posted by RyanHun
I don't see how nesting could possibly work in our situation
Ask wife to draw out her plan and email it to you for your review.,
This is exactly what I did this morning when she phoned. I simply stated the 1) I was at work and didn't have time to discuss. 2) I didn't feel it was something we should discuss over the pone and requested she outline what her plan was over email and we could discuss in person once that was done.
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based on how W is when it comes to housework
Time for her to put on her big girl pants.
100% Agree. Time for her to get her act together and act like an adult
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and finances, we can't afford a second place,
Ask her to draw up a budget so you can see how she thinks this will look financially.
Budget was also included in this mornings email request. I outlined all household expenses and divided 50/50 for now and requested she add anything that she needed and get back to me.
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But it seems she doesn't want to hear any of this or actually do some research on any of the above situations.
Perfect. Do not do any work toward this. Let her do the work.
This is exactly my plan. I am looking into things for my benefit and to be prepared but am not providing her with any advice or guidance in how best to proceed.
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Everything currently is just made off of knee jerk reactions without looking at the big picture or the inner workings of any of the options in front of us.
Always respond with "I will review this. I will let you know what I have decided.
Thanks for this great tip on how to respond.
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Currently we have been living in the same house, in separate bed rooms
Are you sleeping in the nicest room?
I am sleeping where I want and am comfortable with that.
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raising the kids and things were going well so
The truth? Your opinion?
This is 100% about me. Things were working well for me and things were well for the kids.
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I'm not sure why the sudden urgency to start proceeding in the first place.
I would bet OP.
Originally Posted by RyanHun
This morning she called
Why did you answer?
It was right around the time the kids were heading out to school so i assumed it was something along those lines. In hind sight i should have just politely ended the call.
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and wants to discuss living arrangements
Why did you continue?
I didn't, as mentined above I suggested we talk in person at a later date when things are more clearly laid out for review.
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and expenses moving forward.
"I am busy. We can talk later"
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First off financially it would be hard.
Logic does not work. Divorce is financially devastating for all involved.
Especially living in one of the most expensive cities in the world.
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Second we would essentially be living out of a suitcase for the foreseeable future.
Her choice let her feel how this skucs.
I keep mentioning this but then she refuses. I have very politely suggested that for at least a brief period she take all the space she needs and if that includes living separate that it is fine with me.
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Then there are all the other issues, she is a very messy person so now I would have two places to try and keep clean myself.
180 Do not clean up her mess. Set a boundary. Enforce the boundary. Do this with the kids as well. "Anything I have to pickup on trash day is doing into the trash." is the mindset.
This was also discussed in my email this morning. My boundaries and what is expected surrounding housework, childcare, event scheduling etc.
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She is terrible with money management
Her problem. Separate as much as possible.
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What do we do about groceries and food etc.
Aks her for her plan
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This seems like a bad way to live
It is.
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and I'm not so sure it really would be better for the kids.
None of this is good for the kids. Wife is in selfish mode. You are the one standing up for the family.
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I am wondering if any of you guys have first hand experience with this kind of living arrangement and what everyone's thoughts are?
There is currently not a confirmed Om but I gave resigned myself to the fact that there very likely is something on the side here and accept that fact. I am not sure if it is a physical or emotional affair or if one exists period but it certainly seems that way.
There is. Real or imaginary. Time will answer this question.
Time will certainly tell
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So I find myself stuck between a rock and a hard place.
This is vague. Elaborate and clarify.
Just torn on really trying to accomplish what is best for the kids and myself. I know it is vague, it is vague for myself as well right now. This is a subject I really need to gain clarity on.
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I plan to stick with what I am working on including Gal
What are the next 3 GAL you have planned?
Continuing with my exercise regime, continuing with my new mens group meetings every Friday night, a couple of activities with friends, fishing and golf specifically.
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DB'ing,
What new changes are you planning?
Biggest thing is maintaining no pursuit, re stating my boundaries so they are clear and sticking to them, controlling my emotions and not reacting to her mood/anger
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self improvement mentally
What techniques are you using for this?
IC, meditation, reading
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self improvement physically,
You are working out. How often?
I am now 4 times a week. Also quit smoking and pretty much zero alcohol.
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looking my best,
What specific changes have you made? Any others you want?
New hair style, new clothes and shoes, new smell good, and keeping up with it throughout the day. In other words not throwing on a grubby shirt and sweat pants when I get home.
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looking after the kids
Enjoy every moment. Take mental snapshots. 10 years goes by really fast.
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and accepting what I cannot change.
What can you change? Changing the way you interact is critical. List out the ways you have changes your interaction. List out areas of improvement.
Just a bit of an update. As far as things go with myself personally I feel I am doing pretty well. GAL is really helping me out and I am already making some great friends and having a lot of fun with them. My muddled version of NC is also going well. I say muddled NC because we still are living under the same roof and have the three kids but to be more specific I am maintaining friendly but very brief communication, focused primarily on matters that involve the kids or the schedule of events throughout the week. Any form of pursuit has stopped completely and I am very happy just doing my own thing. The bachelor life (or as close to it as i can get given the sitch) is not bad at all. The thoughts of the relationship and what is happening still often pop into my head but all the work on meditation combined with anti anxiety meds that my doctor started me on are making the feelings and emotions much more manageable and they are not consuming me like they did in the past. I am also eating better and sleeping way better now that I am properly handling my thoughts and feelings. One area that I am really struggling with is the kids and seeing what they are going through. My relationship with them has never been better, my self improvement work is helping our relationship immensely. When it comes to WAW though it is hard for me to watch how this is effecting them. Just to give you an example this past weekend W never came home on Friday and other then a 20 minute stop on Saturday to get changed into fresh clothes didn't show up until noon on Sunday which also happened to be D4's birthday. We did family dinner to celebrate D4's birthday but as soon as that was done W said she was going for a walk and didn't come back until after midnight. I really don't know who this person is, W went from being the most loving, caring, fun, never wanting to be a way from the kids mother to basically walking away from them every chance she gets. Witnessing this night after night is really hard but I am doing my best to try and not let it get to me too much and I am doing a good job of not reacting. I simply say bye and go about my business with the kids. I am really appreciative of the time spent with my kids and am doing everything in my power to make sure they are well taken care of and feel extra love from me but I sure wish they weren't in the middle of all this.
So last night was just weird. W came home from work at 11:30 last night, Tuesday is her late night. I was busy in the kitchen packing up the kids lunches and gave her a friendly hello as she walked in the door and went back to what I was doing. I finished up and went back to the couch to watch a bit of late night before bed. W comes down from upstairs and sits in the chair across from me and Asks me if I'm dating to which I replied No and that I thought that was an odd question to ask. She said we need to discuss this and set up a boundary about not bringing people we are dating around the kids. I made it clear that I wanted no part of this discussion at this time but since the topic had now been brought up that I agree that we don't bring just anybody around the kids. W kept pressing for some info from me, who are you talking to?, who are you hanging out with all the time? are you dating? are you on dating apps? I advised her that I was not having this discussion, she kept pressing so I walked away and went to bed. This morning I can't help but wonder where the heck all this came from. These questions are all very strange, really non of her business and there is so much more important stuff that needs to be sorted out before any of this is even considered. I am wondering if this is confirmation that there is an OM. I wish I hadn't walked away because this would have been a good opportunity to re enforce some of the boundaries that I have recently set that seem to go ignored but walking away at the time was best. My plan for tonight though is to sit her down and re discuss my boundaries since she seems to want to go down that road and they are as follows:
1. I have a level of expectation that the house will be kept clean and that if the two of us are living together that needs to be maintained by both parties. Laundry on the floor, dishes piled up right above the dishwasher and papers and junk left lying around will not be tolerated and will be disposed of on the weekend.
2. I have submitted a detailed budget to her with all living and kids expenses that are paid on a monthly basis. She is to review, add items that she has coming out of her account and we are to split all house, child and grocery expenses 50/50.
3. We are no longer together and what each of us is doing when we are out, who we are hanging out with is none of the other persons business.
4. The schedule for both of us is to be added to our shared google calendar by Saturday and will be reviewed and altered by Sunday. On some occasions plans may change last minute but as much notice is to be given as possible. Not all changes will be possible to accommodate on a case by case basis but an effort is to be made by both parties to reach an agreement.
We will see how things go tonight but I suspect they will continue to be ignored in which case alternate living arrangements will have to be made.
It’s important to make sure your boundaries are enforceable. A weak boundary is worse than no boundary. For example - what happens if she doesn’t clean her laundry? Dishes? It sounds like more of a rule/expectation than a boundary.
Also, I think you did the right thing by walking away. But instead of saying “no”, keep it as none of her business. Why give her the answer if you also say it’s not her business?
Sounds like you’re doing well though. Enjoy your time with the kids!
Amoafwl, Thanks for the feedback. Clear, healthy, enforceable boundaries are new to me and I am learning as I go. I think a good action plan would be to enforce that papers, junk etc. will be thrown out. Laundry left on the floor will be collected in garbage bags and placed in the garage. The dishes are a tough one since I also need clean dishes but I think a good measure for this one would be if I find myself doing all the chores then the joint living arrangement will not work and W will have to find other living arrangements and that this will also be another boundary of mine that needs to be added to the list. Thoughts?
How are you going to force her to move somewhere else? I’d say that it’s better to make clear what the expectations are together. Also...how is it ok for her to be gone Friday/Saturday and Sunday nights? When are your GAL nights? I would recommend documenting your schedule for use in the future in case there are custody issues.
Agree completely with Amoafwl. Your "expectation" that both of you will keep the house clean is not going to cut it. I would not do anything for her, but you do have to do things for your kids. Your kids cannot live in filth, so I would maintain the common areas, and yours and their rooms. Do not clean her room. Do not do her laundry. If you have a common hamper leave her clothes in it, take yours and the kids out to clean them.
Same with the finances. You can ask her to pay her share, but if she doesn't, what are you going to do? Jump up and down and scream? Hold your breath? Have a plan here. Buy only the necessities for you and the kids.
Where are here accusations of dating coming from? Likely two places.
First if there is an OM then yes it is projecting. "If I am dating then he must be too." This happens a lot. I think all of the signs of an EA and/or a PA are there in your sitch. However, it doesn't matter. You handled it pretty well, keep getting better at it.
However, it may be that she is feeling the loss of control over you. Most WASs do not handle that well. They will almost always try to find a way to reestablish control. After the LBS has begged, cried, pleaded, used logic and reason, pursued and pressured for a period of time, and then, POOF, that goes away, the WAS is all "what the heck happened? Where is he? What is he doing? Why isn't he bugging me?" It is classic pursuit-distance. Look up that thread, it is always worth a reread.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
So for obvious reasons I can't force her to move somewhere else while I stay here but if that issue arises then we will have to look at selling the house and getting separate places. The disappearing act that has been happening is also something that needs to be addressed immediately and falls under #4 about the schedule being posted. I am not 100% even sure what I want to say to her on this one yet and too be honest I am finding myself a bit overwhelmed at the moment and would really appreciate as many suggestions as I could get.
I feel for you RyanHun, I am also in a Separated but live in the same house sitch. I am only a month in and can already see trouble coming. No idea how to fix it, other than just GAL. Be strong ! You are not alone and these WW's are friggin cookoo crazy.
NIbs
BD Date - 9/16/18 Me-47 Her -47 D24 D13 GD3 In house seperation
Steve, Thanks for the suggestions. Perhaps I am focusing on the wrong areas here and I clearly need to refine some of these items. The finances one I am having a hard time letting go of but you are 100% correct, ultimately there is nothing I can do to force her to pick up her share of the bills. For the most part I am only covering stuff that are necessities for me and the kids. The first thing I did was stop the shared cell phone plan and left her to get her own. The internet is another one, if she refuses to pay her share then I could simply change the wifi password and not provide access. Some of these are really petty small items but at the same time I am being taken advantage of (my fault 100%) and I need to put an end to some of that. That still leaves all the common major house expenses but I would have those on my own regardless so no sense worrying about them ultimately.
The dating thing took me by surprise but I think you nailed it on the head. It is either one or both of those scenarios and based on the amount of questions coming my way about what I am doing with my time I think option 2 is most likely where it all came from. I really dropped the ball on this one and gave her more info then I should have but it is another good lesson learned.
R2C, I can see how I have wroded things that it may come across as me trying to control her. I am not trying to control her, I am trying to control myself. I am being taken advantage of, I am 100% responsible for that I need to not allow that. I have so much work to do to get to where I want with boundaries especially. Thanks for providing links, especially that second one on boundaries, I had not seen that one before.
W kept pressing for some info from me, who are you talking to?, who are you hanging out with all the time? are you dating? are you on dating apps? I advised her that I was not having this discussion, she kept pressing so I walked away and went to bed. This morning I can't help but wonder where the heck all this came from.
My friend, this is classic "projection". Here's how it is defined: "Projection is a defense mechanism used to displace responsibility of one’s negative behavior and traits by attributing them to someone else." So in short, she is either having an A or is on the cusp of starting one so is putting you on the defensive to pave the way for her actions. You'll be too busy defending yourself to notice what she's doing. It's like a magician (or pickpocket) performing sleight-of-hand, you're watching all the activity in his right hand while his left hand is doing something nefarious.
I think things got derailed a bit here today so I want to try and bring things back in. My original post this morning was to try and get some help with boundaries and in a round about way we are getting there. So here goes attempt #2 with what I have picked up this morning.
Me to W:
Currently I am covering all of the household bills, including all of the luxuries such as Netflix, and internet. When the budget that I emailed remains unaddressed I fell anxious about the bills and taken advantage of. I need you to review the budget I have previously emailed, discuss any changes that you would like to implement and pay your share of the bills. If I remain the only person contributing to the monthly expenses then I will begin restricting access to the Netfix and internet usage. I do not want it to come to this but will have no choice but to implement access passwords if it comes to that.
Thoughts? Am I making progress and laying it out properly?
AnotherStander, Thank you for the clarification on "projection". While how I handled the conversation in not the worst way possible another lesson learned here was that I really need to just stick to fact that given the current sitch of our relationship what I am doing with my life, who I am hanging out with and where I am going through out the day is none of her business and really just need to express that and remain firm on that.
I think things got derailed a bit here today so I want to try and bring things back in. My original post this morning was to try and get some help with boundaries and in a round about way we are getting there. So here goes attempt #2 with what I have picked up this morning.
Me to W:
Currently I am covering all of the household bills, including all of the luxuries such as Netflix, and internet. When the budget that I emailed remains unaddressed I fell anxious about the bills and taken advantage of. I need you to review the budget I have previously emailed, discuss any changes that you would like to implement and pay your share of the bills. If I remain the only person contributing to the monthly expenses then I will begin restricting access to the Netfix and internet usage. I do not want it to come to this but will have no choice but to implement access passwords if it comes to that.
Thoughts? Am I making progress and laying it out properly?
No, I think you misunderstand what boundaries are. Here's a blurb from a psychology web site:
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What Is Meant By Healthy Boundaries?
According to the IPFW/Parkview Student Assistance Program, “a boundary is a limit or space between you and the other person; a clear place where you begin and the other person ends … [t]he purpose of setting a healthy boundary is, of course, to protect and take good care of you”.
In general, “[h]ealthy boundaries are those boundaries that are set to make sure mentally and emotionally you are stable” (Prism Health North Texas). Another way to think about it is that “[o]ur boundaries might be rigid, loose, somewhere in between, or even non-existent. A complete lack of boundaries may indicate that we don’t have a strong identity or are enmeshed with someone else” (Cleantis, 2017).
This last quote shows that healthy boundaries can also serve to establish one’s identity, as well as what one is responsible for. Specifically, healthy boundaries can help someone define themselves as a person (rather than simply as part of a group or partnership) and can help someone decide what they will and will not hold themselves responsible for.
While healthy boundaries are often psychological or emotional, boundaries can also, of course, be physical. For example, declining physical contact from a coworker can be as important (or more important) a boundary as asking that same coworker not to make too many demands on your time or emotions.
Boundaries don't really have anything to do with expenses, they are in regards to personal welfare. If you're having trouble paying expenses then just say "W, I can no longer meet our monthly expenses, are you in a position to contribute? If not then we will have to cancel Netflix (or whatever)."
Lots of LBSs start R talks due to what we call "the illusion of action". Most LBSs that are in limbo HATE IT. And they think any action is better than inaction. It isn't.
Why suddenly are you in such a rush to define boundaries and demand money? What do you think the outcome will be? If she can't use Netflix and internet does that help or hurt your sitch?
Also, try to throw emotion out the window and ask yourself, objectively, what the motivations behind your actions are. So many of us LBSs do things in the guise of setting boundaries, standing up for ourselves, etc, when really it is just manipulation attempts, or trying to get the WAS' attention.
So what is the rush?
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
AnotherStander, Thank you for the clarification on "projection". While how I handled the conversation in not the worst way possible another lesson learned here was that I really need to just stick to fact that given the current sitch of our relationship what I am doing with my life, who I am hanging out with and where I am going through out the day is none of her business and really just need to express that and remain firm on that.
Yes, but I think it's fine to tell her you are not dating. I think that may have been mentioned in DR in fact. You're not supposed to willingly and freely offer up info on what your GAL entails, but if she specifically asks you if you are dating then it's fine to say "not at this time, I'm not ready for that" and let it go.
Originally Posted by Steve85
RH, please step back for a minute.
Lots of LBSs start R talks due to what we call "the illusion of action". Most LBSs that are in limbo HATE IT. And they think any action is better than inaction. It isn't.
Why suddenly are you in such a rush to define boundaries and demand money? What do you think the outcome will be? If she can't use Netflix and internet does that help or hurt your sitch?
Also, try to throw emotion out the window and ask yourself, objectively, what the motivations behind your actions are. So many of us LBSs do things in the guise of setting boundaries, standing up for ourselves, etc, when really it is just manipulation attempts, or trying to get the WAS' attention.
Boundaries don't really have anything to do with expenses, they are in regards to personal welfare. If you're having trouble paying expenses then just say "W, I can no longer meet our monthly expenses, are you in a position to contribute? If not then we will have to cancel Netflix (or whatever)."
This is exactly what I was going for. Thanks. You are 100% correct I don't understand boundaries, that's why I'm here. One day at a time.
Lots of LBSs start R talks due to what we call "the illusion of action". Most LBSs that are in limbo HATE IT. And they think any action is better than inaction. It isn't.
Why suddenly are you in such a rush to define boundaries and demand money? What do you think the outcome will be? If she can't use Netflix and internet does that help or hurt your sitch?
Also, try to throw emotion out the window and ask yourself, objectively, what the motivations behind your actions are. So many of us LBSs do things in the guise of setting boundaries, standing up for ourselves, etc, when really it is just manipulation attempts, or trying to get the WAS' attention.
So what is the rush?
I am not really in a rush, given how today is going for me I may not even actually discuss any of this with W for some time (at least not until I have a better understanding of how to do it). I am just trying to get a grasp on this stuff for my own good. I am really just trying to get feedback and appreciate all that is being provided. One thing that I can say with 100% honesty is my intentions here are genuinely not to manipulate W or get her attention. My whole drive behind all of this is to improve myself and only myself for the future. Saving my marriage if that happens is an afterthought.
The state that the house is in with all sorts of items dropped on the floor, stuff piling up on the counter and me being left to clean up the mess is causing me a great deal of stress, anxiety, embarrassment when friends and family come over and is leaving me feeling overwhelmed. It is not a healthy way to live for neither myself nor the kids, Are you able to take on more of the daily chores to help alleviate some of the pressure I am feeling. If things don't change then we will have to reconsider the "nesting" living arrangement and look for separate homes.
Please start a new thread and link this thread to your new one and vice versa. Thanks!
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
