A new mindset for Burned. This is thread 7.

[sandi2]

Here is what I see in most of the nice guys here. The need to appease their W is their downfall. I'm not talking about that normal part of loving someone and wanting them to be happy and love us back. I think the nice guy's need to appease goes beyond normal. It consumes him. It prevents him from being able to mentally detach successfully. He is constantly wondering what she is thinking/feeling, and wondering what her next move will be. Bear in mind, the intensity or degree varies from man to man, just as some things vary about WW's. However, generally speaking, the problem exists.

I also see nice guys struggling in application. When he reads how to deal with a WW, it's difficult for him to know how to balance his actions. As a result, he will often times go to extremes or not use the appropriate timing to apply his new "get tough" actions. Am I making sense? I'm just saying that I think a lot of this new stuff probably feels quite unnormal to a man with NGS.

Most other vets will tell you to stop mind reading, which is good advice. Then Sandi comes along and tries to share how the WW mindset works...……. My purpose is to help you understand what you are dealing with, when you have a WW. I do see nice guys in their WW's head a lot, and I don't know if I'm helping or hurting.

So, in the name of shedding light on the WW mentality, not mind-reading: WTH?! I see pretty much no reason to send me the text, since I gave the impression that I don't care what she does with the thermostats or the money. No need to tell me exactly what happened or how much it cost. She hasn't communicated with me about anything else whatsoever. It feels like she's needling me, baiting me, or trying to make me feel guilty, or all of the above.

I missed the text, so what I say below may sound as if I'm talking off the subject, somewhat. It's not about a text or why it was sent.....but I will add that when you are pondering over why she texted, what it said, etc., it's a sign you are emotionally attached. WW's are very good at keeping their LBH emotionally attached. Why would she do it? B/c it benefits her to keep you emotionally attached. That's all you really need to know about it.


So, just let me say that having a joint account with a WW is very risky. We can cheer you on about not running over there when she snaps her fingers...…..but if we don't know you are sharing an account or that you'll be responsible for the bill, then you might end up cutting off your nose to spite your face. Know what I mean? If you really didn't care how much she spent to have it fixed, then case closed.

I'm not saying you made a mistake by not going to see about the thermostat. (I think it was computer controlled, or something.....can't remember the details). Anyway, I'd like to use this situation about her and the thermostat to illustrate and hopefully help someone who reads this. So, let's say that she calls wanting you to come fix something in the house and you blow it off by telling her to find someone else or hire someone to fix it. She's going to be angry that you didn't run right over there to fix whatever she wanted done. Whether or not it was a manipulation to get you over there... .....she's going to be angry that you didn't handle it, for sure. We wives expect the H to fix what is broken in the home, so out of habit (giving her the benefit of doubt) she turns to her H. But, a wayward wife will use her H, or anyone else, if it benefits her in some way. If she's left the MR, then she has to learn he is not her handyman, computer tech, etc. So, when she calls about something not working properly, he has to consider his options. Will he be responsible for the cost? If so, then he may decide to fix himself, or choose a professional to do it for him. If he is not responsible for the cost, then he can tell her to handle it herself.

If he doesn't go over to fix it himself, or he doesn't hire someone...….he needs to expect some type of backlash from her. It depends upon the individual woman and her level of resentment, as to how angry this could make her. It would be rare, IMHO, if it didn't cause a wayward W some anger, b/c she already has a big resentment problem with him. If she's angry that the H didn't go fix it or hire someone himself, do you think she's going to care how expensive it'll be? No! Especially if this is money in an account that only he makes deposits, she won't care how expensive it is. If the expense comes out of her financial support, then she'll be angry that she had to pay for it. However, in the moment of her having to find someone to fix it...….her emotions will rule her decisions.

Remember, she operates out of her emotions, not logic. Plus, the WW is selfish. She only cares what benefits her the most. Some WW's are spiteful. In this case, I could see her angrily "getting back at you" for not running right over there to take care of it. Even in cases where the woman is not wayward, if the living conditions were intolerable and you told her you didn't care who she got to fix it or how much it cost, I can see her not caring how expensive it was, just as long as the darn thing was fixed. My point is that you have to expect some back lash when you tell a WW you aren't going to her house and fix it and that she'll have to take care of having it fixed. That makes her angry! Which is fine, as long as you understand what you are doing. Are you hurting yourself in the long run? By that I mean, are you footing the bill? If so, then you might want to consider your options of fixing it yourself, or being the one who hires to have it fixed. Is it more important to break free of her relying on you, or "using" you? In this case, you said you didn't care about the money......so I'd say you may get an expensive bill or some type of backlash.

Backlash is okay......as long as it doesn't rob you of strength and make you appear as if she is dominating you. The only thing a WW respects is someone stronger than her. So, if she can dominate you, she won't respect you. I think nice guy H's fear the W's anger. Even after they split, he fears making her angry. Don't fear it, but do understand that her anger will be directed toward you in some form or fashion.

But yes, it's risky if you tell her she'll have to hire someone to fix it......if you will have to foot the bill. If she doesn't have access to your money, or if you won't have to pay the bill, then telling her to get someone is fine. If you are going to be responsible for the expense, then you might want to fix it yourself or be the one who hires a professional. That's the rule of thumb for now. What we fail to mention from time to time is when this changes. We are so targeting on the here & now, that when the stitch changes, so guys don't realize there are few things they should change, too. So, the question for the future is, "When does this approach change?" Simple.....when she stops being a wayward wife. If you've seen all the signs that indicate she is remorseful and humble, and she is treating you with respect...….(all that stuff I've talked about on the WW threads that tell what she needs to do), then how will you know when you can go over and fix whatever is broken. Well, there's several things to consider of course, but just to touch on it, I'd say to ask yourself if you feel like you are being "used" like a tool, and not appreciated. Are you left working on her toilet while she goes out with some other guy? That's what I mean.

Can you tell the difference? That's my question to nice guys. They have this strong belief that if they can just appease the woman enough, he'll win her. IMHO, this is something the nice guy has to learn how to shed. Men want to know why women are attracted to "bad boys". Well, I've just told you the secret ^^^^^^. That's one of my reasons for telling the man with NGS to work on those inner issues of his, and a lot of the issues he has in his relationships will be resolved.

[burned]

Thanks for the feedback. Useful information about strength vs. anger.

Last night I went to my first "real" GAL activity in a long time. Board games with some people I found on Meetup. We played Room 25, King of Tokyo, and a strange game about figuring out who's lying about being a werewolf. One guy there is super into games and is going to Germany next week for something called Essen Spiel where they show off new games.

Then a most bizarre thing happened. Suddenly we paused because it was time to do a discussion? The topic was grief. Most of the guys there (probably all about my age) talked about how they coped with losing loved ones, pets, and so forth. I talked about the loss of my M, my in-laws (who I was closer with than my own siblings), etc. One guy said he started going to this group because he was divorced a couple years ago. They were all very nice. So GAL turned into group therapy. Wasn't expecting that. But I had a good time. I will be going back.

---

Aside from that, I'm completely exasperated. It's not worth going into details about thermostats, money, anything. I've been doing things as instructed (probably not as well as I think I have), but the sitch continues to deteriorate. There is basically no M left to save. Going dark has NOT made anything better. I know it's just a tool to allow us to have time and space apart from each other, but I don't feel any better after a month of this. Interactions with W are now about as unpleasant as they could be. No temp checks. Texts no longer include even the most basic courtesies. It's just straight business. I think probably that interaction we had last week where I said "I don't think divorce is the solution, you know how I feel about this" really set her off.

This morning I got a terse text asking when I'll be getting my stuff from the house. We agreed that tomorrow works. I'm trying not to be pessimistic but I anticipate it'll be a pretty bad day. And I've had a lot of pretty bad days lately. IC says I have my foot nailed to the ground and I refuse to pull out the nail.

I will say that I'm starting to understand the benefits of GAL. Having had a good night last night, meeting people who seem to like me despite all the things W has told me are wrong with me, that's helpful. Maybe I'd be feeling even worse now if I hadn't done that.

[Hero18]

Burned, I am probably the last person on here to give advice, just see my thread. I think the same advice I have been getting also applies to you. You just need to continue to go out and be amongst people even if it means going by yourself. Just interact with the people around you, it will remind you of what positive human interaction feels like and lift up your spirits. GAL is naturally a great tool if you use it correctly...you are either all in or all out. If you do it half heartedly (like me) you will only get half the result. It could be that the hobbies or activities are not stimulating your brain enough, maybe try something that is both hard mentally and physically so your brain does not have the opportunity to switch to the topic of your R. Think of things like Rock Climbing or Learning of to Salsa dance, both require a lot of concentration and would provide your brain the necessary break from your sitch. If I recall, you recently hurt yourself so maybe those are off the table at the moment, but hopefully you get the idea.

I really enjoy reading your posts and think you also offer good advice to others.

Like others on the board here, I am pulling for you.

[Twofeet]

Burned sounds like you are doing better or trying to do better. That's good. Pull out that nail, it will hurt immensely for a brief period of time, but look at the alternative. Would you rather be nailed to the floor, just stuck, while the nail causes your foot to fester and eventually your whole leg has to be removed? Get what I am saying?
On a similar but different note, I know you have an foot/leg injury, but you should really try to find a physical activity to do. Low impact, like swimming, maybe yoga, can you ride a bike? I find physical activity a form of meditation in it's own right. Btw what's the status on your injury?

Keep moving forward, with positive progress you are going to be AMOAFWL.

[burned]

Thanks guys. I'm trying to do better but flailing and failing. I was never very good at controlling my emotions. No idea if anything I'm doing is "working." It certainly isn't improving my R with W in the moment. Will it increase the chances of R later? Maybe, but like all LBSes say, "I know my W and when she says she's made a decision, that's that." I'm feeling stagnant, listless, stuck, unable to detach. And it has been really hard learning, for the first time, at age 35, how to make my own decisions.

As for exercise, the ankle remains broken and it doesn't feel any better after a couple of weeks using the air boot. But: one of the things I will be taking from the house tomorrow is my WaterRower. I have room in the apartment, and rowing is a low-impact full-body workout. I've had that thing for years and never used it (another of W's complaints). Time to get back into it.

I wonder if my outlook will change once I start getting some aerobic exercise for the first time since June.

Edit: you know what really scks is that last night I sort of did feel like AMOAFWL. I was enjoying myself, people seemed to like me, cracking funny jokes, being my old usual self. But behind all of that was just the same pain. The feeling of, "I had something good and now I don't, and there's nothing I can do to undo that."

[Ready2Change]

I was enjoying myself, people seemed to like me, cracking funny jokes, being my old usual self. But behind all of that was just the same pain. The feeling of, "I had something good and now I don't, and there's nothing I can do to undo that."

Yes, that happens for awhile. Keep doing positive things. We are human and need to feel both the pain and the pleasure. Focus on the pleasure. Deal with the pain as it comes. You can handle it.

[burned]

Spent some time tonight with friends. They were “our” friends but now “my” friends. I have been avoiding social media but they have been keeping an eye on W and tonight they informed me of their opinion that, based on W’s posts, she appears to be “unraveling.”

Oh well. I had a nice night, and people seem to like me the way I am. Time for bed.

[sandi2]

I've been doing things as instructed (probably not as well as I think I have), but the sitch continues to deteriorate. There is basically no M left to save. Going dark has NOT made anything better. I know it's just a tool to allow us to have time and space apart from each other, but I don't feel any better after a month of this. Interactions with W are now about as unpleasant as they could be. No temp checks. Texts no longer include even the most basic courtesies. It's just straight business. I think probably that interaction we had last week where I said "I don't think divorce is the solution, you know how I feel about this" really set her off.

It sounds as if you were expecting something from her by Going Dark. Going Dark is to help the LBS deal with their emotions and to get themselves out of the panic mode to "do something/anything". It's to help them to detach from the emotional drama of their spouse. It is time & free space to heal or work on your own issues....get IC, read, or whatever. The LBS is so emotionally enmeshed with their spouse and the drama of the stitch that it's very difficult to see, hear, touch, or smell anything else. When they go dark, they can pull away from all that drama......and the space helps them discover the life around them, rather than just focusing on the stitch.

You went out one night, and already feel the positive effects.

[MoveFrwd]

No idea if anything I'm doing is "working." It certainly isn't improving my R with W in the moment. Will it increase the chances of R later? Maybe, but like all LBSes say, "I know my W and when she says she's made a decision, that's that." I'm feeling stagnant, listless, stuck, unable to detach.

I wanted to write to you this weekend, but I didnt have my laptop and figured it would be a pain on the phone.

Anyway, Im confused by what you mean by "working"...I mean, how do you even know? Ive written several times that I see it like taking a walk with your spouse but she is always 3 steps ahead of you. No matter how fast you walk, she will always stay that buffer zone ahead. Now, if you STOP walking, what happens...? For a while, it looks like she is only getting further and further away. So how can you judge what impact you are having on her. To me, it sounds like you are scared and frustrated and want SOME kind of resolution whatever it may be.

Edit: you know what really scks is that last night I sort of did feel like AMOAFWL. I was enjoying myself, people seemed to like me, cracking funny jokes, being my old usual self. But behind all of that was just the same pain. The feeling of, "I had something good and now I don't, and there's nothing I can do to undo that."

I understand that there is a loss. And it stinks that she is going to miss out on the new you. But thats HER loss. The new you will surely find some happiness again. Keep your focus on you and on the present.

[burned]

Going Dark is to help the LBS deal with their emotions and to get themselves out of the panic mode to "do something/anything". It's to help them to detach from the emotional drama of their spouse. It is time & free space to heal or work on your own issues....get IC, read, or whatever. The LBS is so emotionally enmeshed with their spouse and the drama of the stitch that it's very difficult to see, hear, touch, or smell anything else. When they go dark, they can pull away from all that drama......and the space helps them discover the life around them, rather than just focusing on the stitch.

I'm starting to realize this, bit by bit.

Yesterday I went to the house to get most of my belongings. Lots of emotions there but maybe I handled it a bit better than expected. Can't decide if I want to get into the details or not. I guess I'll summarize.

Essentially she "set aside" everything that was even remotely connected to me. Like, all the way down to refrigerator magnets. Except a couple of very conspicuous things that she left in place. This was very weird, and it's pointless to wonder why. Either she is having trouble "letting go" or else she knew I'd see them and spend the rest of the day wondering. In that case it's pretty manipulative. No way of knowing.

It's all just strange, surreal.