Why do we all feel so comfortable weighing in our opinions on what IH coulda/shoulda/woulda done differently? Poor guy. None of us are or have been in his position. ... But while we are, I will weigh in mine :-) Look, none of us were there with them. I am sure when he was massaging her he could sense that she was not open to advances. If she was, I am sure he would have gone for it. Duh! She was most likely guarded in some way and he picked up on that. Why would he "go for it" and risk making things awkward or putting himself in the position to get rejected. IH, you did good, brother You knew it wasn't the right time.
I do agree that when someone tells us "we need to talk," it is not usually an indication they want more. Think about it, if she did, he would have sensed that on the date. And she would be throwing out signs left and right, flirting, and already trying to make plans. She is guarded again. This also is a unique sitch because they have such a long history. I am not surprised she is moving at such a snails pace. She knows that once she jumps (back into any R at all) she cannot hit rewind. She also knows that she could blow it and potentially lose this friendship. Now while she will lose it anyways (you don't want that), it's clear that this friendship is very important to her.
I trust that you will handle this well, even without the advice from all of us rookies! Lol.
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
Okay let me explain something about my WAW. When it comes to sex, she makes herself very clear. At this point she knows where I'm at. So I didn't reach around and grab her breasts becuase I knew it would end badly if I did. I didn't necessarily want a bad parting with her. I knew at the end of the night when I tried to kiss her if she wanted sex she would DEFINITELY have made out with me as that's always been her biggest turn on...kissing, not massages. The massage was meant, in my head, to be a prelude to the kiss which if she kissed me, would definitely have led to the sack. I know for sure if i had tried anything at that point of the massage things would have gotten ugly quick. The kiss was my best shot...if she didn't make out with me then she didn't want sex...that's it. So I found out the exact same thing without the drama. Also rereading my update I missed a big point. She DID actually say I could stay over...and crash on her couch!!! Hahaha what?!! SCREW...THAT! No way was that happening again. There was absolutely no suggestions or hints that she wanted to be intimate with me at any point...and that includes the back massage. Every time I worked my way close to the front of her she would pull away a little bit. She DEFINITELY didn't want me to go beyond a certain point. So believe me, I was cognizant of what was happening and the situation at hand but there's no doubt in my mind that she would have refused. Also the couch remark in itself told me all I needed to know. So you're right the massage was an opportunity to test the water in a normal situation; but in this case I already knew the water temperature.
You have to understand, things like turning out the lights was NOT a hint on her part. We always liked to sit in the dark with lava lamps, candles, etc. In fact people would call us vampires because our place was always dark. It's not like in the movies where she glided over to the light switch batting her eyelashes at me suggestively while slipping over to the couch with me. It wasn't like that although I can see why you guys would take that as a hint of sorts on her part. But to her and I turning off the lights was a normal thing like turning on the television is no others. Just because someone turns on the television doesn't mean they want to watch a movie and get sexual. The light thing is akin to that with us. It wasn't some romantic overture. So keep that in mind...we always sat in the dark when we were married and created what we called "ambience." In fact that's what she called it that night. It wasn't in a romantic context. So this is why it's not as "intimate" as it understandably may seem to people.
Now about the conversation she wants to have. Yes my plan is to hear her out, explain my side of things and set the course of action at that point. If she pulls the friends card again then that's it guys. I am SOOO done with her. Enough is enough. She can find someone else to carve pumpkins with. I am so sick of this crap from her and I am bored senseless with her because of it. It's becoming a chore to even see her and I would rather just shoot this thing dead and be done. So we'll have to see what she says now because it's strange she hasn't replied yet. Something is going on in her head and my suspicion is that she knows if she insists on friendship that I am done and I'm not sure she wants me to go again for good. But she's not changing my mind. Im going to tell her once again very clearly that we BOTH moving towards reconciliation or nothing...and I'm also going to tell her if you say we are moving towards reconciliation then I expect far more than useless kisses. Iwant tongue or nothing LOL! Seriously I've had it with her...I am not holding back on saying these things to her. I'm sick of this, I'm losing interest in even reconciling with her actaully...and that's not a good sign on my end. I want action now...she's had plenty of time to figure this out. It's time to crap or get off the toilet. I will make it clear that means don't come popping into my work anymore, don't text, don't do ANY of that unless it's to tell me you want to try again. That's it. I've had it with this situation and her. She needs to just shoo shoo and go away if she's not going to deliver the goods.
ME: 43 W:44 M 13 years on 5-5-01 T 18 years BD 4/27/14 D papers served 5/5/14 (how appropriate a date) WAW moved out 5/12/14 Papers filed 6/27/14 Divorce granted 07/17/14 Our marriage ends 11/17/14
Does it have to be all or nothing - at least right now? I totally hear you and can support that if ALL she wants is friends that you can't and won't do that. That's fine. But it's not either friends or full on reconciliation - is it? I mean, can't you just start to date her like you would anyone else? You'd not tell some other woman after the first date - look either we are working towards a real relationship here or we are done. You'd never do that. So why do it now? And to add to why NOT to do it now is she is scared. I'm sure that's the most of it. She is less afraid of trying with you than you think. She's mostly afraid of it failing or her getting hurt. Can't you have some level of patience with her? Clearly if ALL she can do is friends, then you have to set your boundries, but give her a bit of time to ease into this. She already took a step in that direction. She might be willing to continue exploring it without having to tell you "yes let's try to get back together again" Why don't you just tell her that you need the two of your to date - as in real dates.
DonH Midwest Me 56 WAW-EXW 55 Met 11/95 / Married 5/00 Bomb 6/20/05 / She Filed on 6/2/06 / Divorced on 10/9/06 4 who'd qualify as GF since D & dated about 25 women since D
Well Don my main answer to your points is this...I don't think she truly considered it a date. That's my issue. I can say it is but that means nothing...she has to see it that way too. So what I am saying is that if she thinks me taking her out is just a couple friends hanging out then no... absolutely and positively not. In other words, if she DID see it as a date proper, then to me that technically IS her "working towards R"...with R defined as an all new relationship with me. In that case then yes, you are saying what I've been saying all throughout this drama...that I am willing to be friends for a bit SO LONG as that's not the end goal, that needs to be the start of something, not an end to something. So that's what I mean by my sternness. I'm saying that if I get her to come out and say that essentially R is not an option to her and that she just wants to be friends forever then that's not gonna work for me. If she says she wants to be friends FOR NOW and continue DATING (proper) then I'm all in. Hope this clarifies.
ME: 43 W:44 M 13 years on 5-5-01 T 18 years BD 4/27/14 D papers served 5/5/14 (how appropriate a date) WAW moved out 5/12/14 Papers filed 6/27/14 Divorce granted 07/17/14 Our marriage ends 11/17/14
ME: 43 W:44 M 13 years on 5-5-01 T 18 years BD 4/27/14 D papers served 5/5/14 (how appropriate a date) WAW moved out 5/12/14 Papers filed 6/27/14 Divorce granted 07/17/14 Our marriage ends 11/17/14
