Starting over...for the final time (pain DB VI)

[Phoenix9]

And if she files, stall?

[equalzr]

My W has never once said the word "D" and yet has goaded me into threatening it, twice. It's what they want. Feeds into the "poor me" narrative. And they know how reactive we are, so they use it against us.

Same here, my WW swore up and down she didnt want a D, and that she only wanted to get out and do things. Then she proceeded to do everything possible to try and get me to ask for a D. My WW clearly wanted a D, but initially didnt want to have to tell anyone she filed.

If i were you id be patient, and just say it was said out of the heat of the moment in anger and doesnt reflect your true feelings (if thats the case).

[Phoenix9]

My W has never once said the word "D" and yet has goaded me into threatening it, twice. It's what they want. Feeds into the "poor me" narrative. And they know how reactive we are, so they use it against us.

Same here, my WW swore up and down she didnt want a D, and that she only wanted to get out and do things. Then she proceeded to do everything possible to try and get me to ask for a D. My WW clearly wanted a D, but initially didnt want to have to tell anyone she filed.

If i were you id be patient, and just say it was said out of the heat of the moment in anger and doesnt reflect your true feelings (if thats the case).

If it gets brought up again, I will say that. I just said that I need time to think about it while my emotions subside.

[sandi2]

Thank you so much sandi. I await your insight to this. To answer your question: W brought up the hall-pass weekends two months before BD (kiss). She started dating OM one month after BD whist we were still in the trial separation phase. And when she brought up hall-passes she made it seem like it would benefit both of us, to which I have disagreed with constantly.

Sorry, I don't know why I am getting so confused about it. So, she suddenly wants hall passes for the weekends, which means she wants to play like she's not in a MR. Then, she admits to kissing. I am reminded of something one of the board's favorite vet's use to say. He said a WW will usually admit to a level just lower than the full truth. That's how teenagers will communicate sometimes, to test the reaction of their parent. I guess it makes sense, cause WW's are like rebellious teenagers.

I had it in my head that the two of you were physically separated. Are you living under the same roof? If so, no wonder you are reeling in so much agony! It's worse than being in an open M, b/c it's without your agreement. In house separations are the worst, b/c you aren't really separated expect in the areas she dictates. It is the epitome of cake eating for the WW to be living under the same roof and calling it a separation......while dating OM, all in the face of her H.

When her R with OM began she was very secretive other than the fact she told me that she is "casually seeing him" or "you're obsessing" (Gaslighting). She moved quickly, asking me if it was ok for D4 to meet him. I had little balls back then so I nice-guyed and said "Sure, if it's casual." Wrong.

IMHO, that's another sign of WW, being so secretive, gaslighting, etc. If she was just a WAW without a hidden agenda, why be so secretive and gaslight? The only reason I could think of a WAW being secret is if she feared her H and was trying to flee from his abuse. I haven't seen a wayward, yet, that was afraid of violence coming at the hand of her H. It doesn't fit their mindset, makeup, or the protocol, so to speak. A WAW might be concerned of possible repercussions....and she would be more logical in her thinking. Whereas, a WW is too fogged out of her mind to be logical, and too addicted to high of her affair. Let me put it this way.........a WW pretty much has her H's b@lls. The WAW usually doesn't. That's why you don't hear of abuse going hand in hand with WW's. And, please don't misunderstand what I'm saying here. I'm not advocating any type of abuse! I'm just saying that I have not read about it in wayward wife cases. What I've read is how the WW is the bully. The H usually has some level of NGS (but that's just my observation from the past eleven years of studying it). She is the one who is really in charge. She's the dominate spouse, ruling the house and the MR. If anyone is afraid.....it's him afraid of her. He fears her anger, her rejections, her coldness, her put downs, etc.

When I snooped her phone records and confronted her, she made me feel like the bad guy and again she said that "we are separated".

After that, she still kept her phone to her self but would leave it in conspicuous places, I would assume to test me. I never was tempted. I just knew it was asking for trouble.

This fits the WW picture we see on the board time after time.

When I joined DB forum, I told myself that I was detaching, GAL, all that stuff, but still working on R. When Steve told me that more often that not, R does not happen, I refused to accept and still applied the DB techniques not only for myself, but to show her that I can improve every aspect about myself.

I think everyone who comes to the board is seeking help, or they wouldn't be here. People get upset if we don't give them hope, and they get upset if we do....and reconciliation never comes. They say we offered them false hope. I am a realist and I probably speak more bluntly than some would prefer, but I will be as honest as I can. Ultimately, it's up to you as to how long you want to hope for a reconciliation. If you can move forward with life, and still hold to some hope that one day both you and your spouse can heal from all the issues......then that's up to you. Some people just don't know how to move forward apart from their spouse. They are to co-dependent on the MR. Those are the ones that have such a difficult time even thinking of giving up hope......b/c of their own inner issues. Just like you, at 37, practically sounding like you are sexually dead. You are so afraid of not being in a satisfied sexual relationship again, that it paralyzes you. I could talk for pages how you and your future W set yourself up for failure by the way you handled your first date, and then meeting bi-monthly afterwards. Man, when you decided to take the plunge......you really went for it. But, I'm not going to get off into all of that, b/c I really see no benefit at this point. However, if you should start dating in the future...….maybe we should talk.

At the urging of my DB coach, I decided to make some small moves, most which were met with positivity. To which I felt "Hey, these are good signs!". But the folks here saw this and warned me to slow down and that it did not mean anything, good or bad.

Here's the thing......the more people giving you advice, the more chance of receiving different advice. I don't know how often you've spoken with the DB coach, or if you revealed something there that you haven't here. Some of us on the board don't always see eye to eye about everything. Plus, you are seeing a therapist, your spiritual advisor, and did I see where you are also in MC? What's the chances you are going to hear everyone say the same thing?

But I kept up my hope until D4 told me about their affection last weekend and me finding the explicit emails. I called her again and asked to not display PDA in front of D4. Her initial reply was "I thought I was doing that but I will do a better job." Last night, when I told her that I do not want D4 to see OM anymore, she was angry and told me that she needs to see what a "healthy, affectionate relationship" should look like. I just told her I disagreed and that as she grows older she will ask questions about why W made the choices she is making. She returned my remark with a look of disgust and asked "How dare you!" and again repeated the sentiment of seeing happy, healthy relationship behavior.

It's just more disrespect coming from her. Look, she feels disgusted with you, and blames her unhappiness on this bad MR. That doesn't mean you are disgusting person...….it just means those are the feelings of a WW. Waywardness is all about the lack of respect. In order to draw your W, she'll need to see you in a light of strength. She needs to respect you as man, first. Understand? A woman has to feel respect for her H as a man, before she can feel desire for him as her H. She's not going to do anything lovingly from her heart as a wife, when she doesn't respect you as a man. You are working hard to learn new skills and better yourself as a man. It's a growth process. Along the way, you'll learn that firm boundaries are needed with a WW. If she doesn't feel the sting of her disrespect and selfishness, then she's not going to suddenly change for the better (without an ulterior motive). This subject (boundaries) within itself is too much to cover in this post.

As we continued to talk, W said that I was "a better version of myself."

Wait a minute. That's DB language that is used on the board. Why would your WW being using that expression, unless you are repeating to her the things you pick up on the board? It's a pet peeve of mine, I suppose, but she's not the one showing up for class...….YOU are. Don't be one of these guys that think they are going to get somewhere with the WW by flashing some of the board's phrases around with her. If I'm wrong, I apologize, and just stick it under you hat. Do you follow what I'm saying here? Don 't be sharing DB terminology or phrases or anything in your tool box with her. Don't even tell her you are working on yourself. Don't tell her how badly you want to save the MR. Don't tell her how bad you hurt. Don't share your goals with her. Don't tell her anything, unless we specifically tell you to say it. Don't talk to her about the OM and their "relationship". If they are having sex in front of D4.....or you have reason to be concerned about her being around OM.....then get legal advice of what you can do. Otherwise, they will laugh at your powerlessness over what they do in their "relationship". Learn what you can control, and what you can't. Are you getting the picture? ((hugs))

I went further when I told her that I do not trust her when it came to D4's visitation. She asked me angrily and to make sure I am not saying it out of anger and to think about what I said and then tell her. I repeated it again. I do not trust her.

Look, what did you expect to get when you told her that? Again, I suspect you picked it up from the board warning you not to trust her about child visitation......b/c we have learned from people's experiences. That's for you ONLY, not for you to run your mouth to her. Is there anything you haven't told her that you've gotten off the board? This is like chopping off your own foot. It gets you nowhere but behind.

We proceeded to talk about D. Though she brought it up and asked me to file. I told her that I am in a high emotional state right now and will not be making any decisions at this moment. When/if that time comes, it will come from a logical view.

High emotional state sounds like a female. Women get in high emotional state b/c we are emotional creatures, sometimes called the weaker sex b/c of our capacity for high emotional state of mind. On the other hand, we women need our men to remain calm, in command, in charge, and strong enough to handle our high emotional state.

Sorry for being so tough on you. I'm really not trying to beat you up. I want to help you, and pointing these things out is how I know where to get started. When I read your first post, I thought to myself that you probably did not have many, or if any, close male buddies. It always shows whenever a man has mostly women in his life. Just as women need other women, so do men need to spend time around other men. So, I want to encourage you to try to spend more time around strong, positive, males.

I['m not through reading everything yet. So far, you've been getting good advice, and responding well. You know, a good response goes a long ways. Good application goes even farther. Remember that we are here in your corner. We talk about 2x4's but it's just a learning technique that everyone gets (if that makes you feel any better).

[Phoenix9]

Sorry, I don't know why I am getting so confused about it. So, she suddenly wants hall passes for the weekends, which means she wants to play like she's not in a MR. Then, she admits to kissing. I am reminded of something one of the board's favorite vet's use to say. He said a WW will usually admit to a level just lower than the full truth. That's how teenagers will communicate sometimes, to test the reaction of their parent. I guess it makes sense, cause WW's are like rebellious teenagers.

I'm past that. Whether she kissed or it was more, she cheated and "she feels horrible for making that ONE mistake."

I had it in my head that the two of you were physically separated. Are you living under the same roof? If so, no wonder you are reeling in so much agony! It's worse than being in an open M, b/c it's without your agreement. In house separations are the worst, b/c you aren't really separated expect in the areas she dictates. It is the epitome of cake eating for the WW to be living under the same roof and calling it a separation......while dating OM, all in the face of her H.

In house separated for 6 agonizing months. Then we had a 3 day in/3 day out split and spend Sunday together. That ended last week when I told her I am no longer couch hopping and I am coming home to sleep in my bedroom on my bed. She asked me again today if I am coming home tonight to which I said "Yes I am." I am not couch-hopping any longer.

IMHO, that's another sign of WW, being so secretive, gaslighting, etc. If she was just a WAW without a hidden agenda, why be so secretive and gaslight? The only reason I could think of a WAW being secret is if she feared her H and was trying to flee from his abuse. I haven't seen a wayward, yet, that was afraid of violence coming at the hand of her H. It doesn't fit their mindset, makeup, or the protocol, so to speak. A WAW might be concerned of possible repercussions....and she would be more logical in her thinking. Whereas, a WW is too fogged out of her mind to be logical, and too addicted to high of her affair. Let me put it this way.........a WW pretty much has her H's b@lls. The WAW usually doesn't. That's why you don't hear of abuse going hand in hand with WW's. And, please don't misunderstand what I'm saying here. I'm not advocating any type of abuse! I'm just saying that I have not read about it in wayward wife cases. What I've read is how the WW is the bully. The H usually has some level of NGS (but that's just my observation from the past eleven years of studying it). She is the one who is really in charge. She's the dominate spouse, ruling the house and the MR. If anyone is afraid.....it's him afraid of her. He fears her anger, her rejections, her coldness, her put downs, etc.

She does...but I'm slowly loosening her vice grip around them. Next step of splitting accounts and have her move out is next. And NGS, holy s*it, I am making improvements, but it is going to take longer than 3 months (or years) to fix 30+ years of NGS-related abuse and responses. One day at a time, right?

This fits the WW picture we see on the board time after time.

WW confirmed.

I think everyone who comes to the board is seeking help, or they wouldn't be here. People get upset if we don't give them hope, and they get upset if we do....and reconciliation never comes. They say we offered them false hope. I am a realist and I probably speak more bluntly than some would prefer, but I will be as honest as I can. Ultimately, it's up to you as to how long you want to hope for a reconciliation. If you can move forward with life, and still hold to some hope that one day both you and your spouse can heal from all the issues......then that's up to you. Some people just don't know how to move forward apart from their spouse. They are to co-dependent on the MR. Those are the ones that have such a difficult time even thinking of giving up hope......b/c of their own inner issues. Just like you, at 37, practically sounding like you are sexually dead. You are so afraid of not being in a satisfied sexual relationship again, that it paralyzes you. I could talk for pages how you and your future W set yourself up for failure by the way you handled your first date, and then meeting bi-monthly afterwards. Man, when you decided to take the plunge......you really went for it. But, I'm not going to get off into all of that, b/c I really see no benefit at this point. However, if you should start dating in the future...….maybe we should talk.

Sandi, this is why I reached out to you. Everyone here has been fantastic with their advice and it is consistent. Not once have I obtained differing approaches to this. You are the exclamation point to this. Dating is a long ways off. I was 27, I wanted to take my shot, and I did really damn good for 8 years. I made mistakes in the last two because of my behaviors. I am going to date again. I just do not know how soon (obviously).

Here's the thing......the more people giving you advice, the more chance of receiving different advice. I don't know how often you've spoken with the DB coach, or if you revealed something there that you haven't here. Some of us on the board don't always see eye to eye about everything. Plus, you are seeing a therapist, your spiritual advisor, and did I see where you are also in MC? What's the chances you are going to hear everyone say the same thing?

I was seeing a NGS therapist. Four sessions so far. I may join the support group next month. And I am seeing a MC (IC now). NGS basically said I need to grow a pair (in a nice way). MC talks about the causes for the failure of the marriage and what it requires going forward. I see MC tomorrow and I am going to tell him that D is on the table now, but will need to plan it out.

It's just more disrespect coming from her. Look, she feels disgusted with you, and blames her unhappiness on this bad MR. That doesn't mean you are disgusting person...….it just means those are the feelings of a WW. Waywardness is all about the lack of respect. In order to draw your W, she'll need to see you in a light of strength. She needs to respect you as man, first. Understand? A woman has to feel respect for her H as a man, before she can feel desire for him as her H. She's not going to do anything lovingly from her heart as a wife, when she doesn't respect you as a man. You are working hard to learn new skills and better yourself as a man. It's a growth process. Along the way, you'll learn that firm boundaries are needed with a WW. If she doesn't feel the sting of her disrespect and selfishness, then she's not going to suddenly change for the better (without an ulterior motive). This subject (boundaries) within itself is too much to cover in this post.

It's building. She beat me down viciously but I put up a fight, right up until the end when I did admit that it has to do with jealousy. But everytime I step up, I put up a better fight.

Wait a minute. That's DB language that is used on the board. Why would your WW being using that expression, unless you are repeating to her the things you pick up on the board? It's a pet peeve of mine, I suppose, but she's not the one showing up for class...….YOU are. Don't be one of these guys that think they are going to get somewhere with the WW by flashing some of the board's phrases around with her. If I'm wrong, I apologize, and just stick it under you hat. Do you follow what I'm saying here? Don 't be sharing DB terminology or phrases or anything in your tool box with her. Don't even tell her you are working on yourself. Don't tell her how badly you want to save the MR. Don't tell her how bad you hurt. Don't share your goals with her. Don't tell her anything, unless we specifically tell you to say it. Don't talk to her about the OM and their "relationship". If they are having sex in front of D4.....or you have reason to be concerned about her being around OM.....then get legal advice of what you can do. Otherwise, they will laugh at your powerlessness over what they do in their "relationship". Learn what you can control, and what you can't. Are you getting the picture? ((hugs))

I don't know. The only words I have told her was that "I am working on being a better man and a better father". She was the one who said I was becoming a better version of myself I never uttered those words once. I will be more conscientious of what I say around her. I do suspect that she may be loosely following this but I have no proof. I made the mistake last weekend when I told her the pain she and OM are putting me through. I knew it when I made the call asking her to "respect my feelings (hah)" that I set myself way back. But it also put me in the cold reality that NOW I have truly let go. I repeat the saying that I can only control myself. It's becoming more ingrained in me daily. The picture is getting clearer, sandi. It's taken some time, but things are coming into focus.

Look, what did you expect to get when you told her that? Again, I suspect you picked it up from the board warning you not to trust her about child visitation......b/c we have learned from people's experiences. That's for you ONLY, not for you to run your mouth to her. Is there anything you haven't told her that you've gotten off the board? This is like chopping off your own foot. It gets you nowhere but behind.

A cold splash of water and the realization that I am not to be walked on anymore. The board made suggestions but I went by the saying "Believe nothing they say and 50% of what they do." If she asks "Don't you trust me?" I will immediately respond with "No." But I hear you on me running my mouth.

High emotional state sounds like a female. Women get in high emotional state b/c we are emotional creatures, sometimes called the weaker sex b/c of our capacity for high emotional state of mind. On the other hand, we women need our men to remain calm, in command, in charge, and strong enough to handle our high emotional state.

Got it. I have told her that I need a few days to calm down.

Sorry for being so tough on you. I'm really not trying to beat you up. I want to help you, and pointing these things out is how I know where to get started. When I read your first post, I thought to myself that you probably did not have many, or if any, close male buddies. It always shows whenever a man has mostly women in his life. Just as women need other women, so do men need to spend time around other men. So, I want to encourage you to try to spend more time around strong, positive, males.

I['m not through reading everything yet. So far, you've been getting good advice, and responding well. You know, a good response goes a long ways. Good application goes even farther. Remember that we are here in your corner. We talk about 2x4's but it's just a learning technique that everyone gets (if that makes you feel any better).

No need for apologies. This is why I reached out to you because you drive the point home HARD. And I needed that gut punch. I know I'm getting stronger and better. This board has a lot to do with that. To be honest, I do not have many males or female friends in my life right now. Hence the reason even more why I need to GAL. I need good male friends.

Please read through my threads. I swing through a lot of emotions and even pushed off Gordie after snapping at him. It was after I told myself that no one deserves my reaction. You all are trying to help.

Sandi, I appreciate you weighing in. I need to stay empowered through this and gives me a reminder that an objective view.

On that note, after W and I talked, she told me that she feeds off my emotions and that I need to "question where I am getting my advice from." If I had not found this board, I would have not addressed my issues that need remedied.

Back I go.

(((everyone)))

[Phoenix9]

This song came on my iPhone and hit home for me. I'm sure it applies to most if not all of you too.

Zero 7 - In The Waiting Line

Wait in line
'Till your time
Ticking clock
Everyone stop

Everyone's saying different things to me
Different things to me
Everyone's saying different things to me
Different things to me

Woooohh
Do you believe
In what you see
There doesn't seem to be anybody else who agrees with me

Do you believe
In what you see
Motionless wheel
Nothing is real
Wasting my time
In the waiting line
Do you believe in
What you see

Nine to five
Living lies
Everyday
Stealing time
Everyone's taking everything they can
Everything they can
Everyone's taking everything they can
Everything they can

Woooohh
Do you believe
In what you feel
It doesn't seem to be anybody else who agrees with me

Do you believe
In what you see
Motionless wheel
Nothing is real
Wasting my time
In the waiting line
Do you believe
In what you see

Ah and I'll shout and I'll scream
But I'd rather not have seen
And i'll hide away for another day

Do you believe
In what you see
Motionless wheel
Nothing is real
Wasting my time
In the waiting line
Do you believe
In what you see

Everyone's saying different things to me
Different things to me
Different things to me
Different things to me
Different things to me
Everyone's taking everything they can
Everything they can

[Ready2Change]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDrV86RVdIE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yNAABKD4IA

[Twofeet]

The songs that really get me for various reasons in my sitch are:
Johnny Cash's version of Hurt
This Is On Me by Ben Abraham and Sara Bareillis
I Will Follow You Into the Dark by Deathe Cab for Cutie

There are more but I can't listen to these 3 songs without breaking down. Also our wedding song, but I won't list that here.

[burned]

Yup, and stay away from weddings where they play “I loved her first,” “From this moment,” and “Still the one.” :’(

And hey, today is the 20th anniversary of “Hit me baby one more time.”

[sandi2]

I have been struggling with some vision impairment, so it is taking me longer than usual to catch up on your story. I have to say that as I read a little more last night, I felt sorry for you b/c you were getting advice from so many different sources. All in all, I can already see by your writing/posting how much stronger you've become......and in such a short period. So, I feel encouraged by your personal growth, and mainly b/c of how you speak about yourself. That tells me more than you may realize. You see, a lot of guys measure their DBing accomplishment according to how well the W responds or gets closer to R, etc. I don't. I see his accomplishment according to how he grows as a man. B/c when he "becomes" that MAN......the R will happen .....or he'll seek a better life. If it doesn't happen, it's b/c of the W, not the man. A phrase that is passed around the board is "Become the man only a fool would leave". My issue with that phrase is that a lot of guys (not all) seem to initially misunderstand it, and LBH's usually think it means to become what they "think" their W wants. B/c of the anxiety he feels and the desperation to fix the unhappy state of his W, he tends to put himself in a subservient position in the M and the home. This is not what he needs to do. BTW, so far that I've read, I have not picked up on you waiting hand & foot on your W, catering to her every demand, trying to do all the housework (leaving none for her to do), basically becoming the homemaker. It's okay to split/share chores. So, hopefully, you don't have to overcome that mistake a lot of LBH's make trying to over compensate. Becoming a masculine male who is the leader in the marriage/home, the protector, provider, etc., and who is stronger than the female......is basically who she wants. She wants her emotional needs met, a lot more than having the floors vacuumed. It's a balancing act. The H needs to knows how to take care of her physical and emotional needs. He needs to dominant her (not be domineering, but sexually dominant) and who is not a jerk or chauvinist, but knows how to be loving and supportive without it threatening the loss of his b@lls. I really feel sorry for men, b/c I realize women are very complex creatures! It's difficult (for me, at least) to know how to describe in few words. The reason I talk about this so much is b/c of the numerous amount of LBH's who come to the board, practically emasculated by their WW's and thinking that being a nice guy will be the man only a fool would leave. Nothing could be farther from the truth. NGS is a lot of the problem, but he has to see what we mean by being the man only a fool would leave. Also, realistically speaking, the WW is very foolish, so keep that in mind. You may become perfect, but vision isn't.

I'm past that. Whether she kissed or it was more, she cheated and "she feels horrible for making that ONE mistake."

ONE mistake? I don't understand. I'm reading all this stuff about her in a relationship with another man. It may not be the same one that she initially confessed to kissing, or the one for which she wanted weekend hall passes........but don't write it off as ONE mistake she's made. Neither write it off as her having remorse. When she continues doing what is causing pain & destruction to the MR, you can bet she's not remorseful or she would stop it. This is an example of "believe nothing she says".

I think I must be miscommunicating somewhere, or I am misunderstanding the stitch. And......I read where you said you had no "proof" of their affair! What?! When there is another man in the picture, and she's talking about "them", and your child is talking about "them", and your W is spending time with him.....….you don't have to have a video of them having sex. So, don't get too technical over "proof" when you have a W talking about her OM! His name is coming up in regular conversations.....or they were where I was reading your stitch. If you are "past it", that's fine. Just don't stick your head in the sand and be in denial of the fact your W is carrying on an affair with another man. The OM is not your buddy. He's not a friend of your marriage/family. I don't say this to stir up your pain. I just want to make sure you are seeing clearly. I know you want the pain to stop, but don't fool yourself into thinking they are simply good ole pals that enjoy hanging out together. The mind can play tricks on us, sometimes, and WW's are particular good at manipulation. All in all, it wouldn't be that difficult for her to make you think things are different from the truth. Just like her wanting to decorate your room. Place no stock in that, whatsoever.

In house separated for 6 agonizing months. Then we had a 3 day in/3 day out split and spend Sunday together. That ended last week when I told her I am no longer couch hopping and I am coming home to sleep in my bedroom on my bed. She asked me again today if I am coming home tonight to which I said "Yes I am." I am not couch-hopping any longer.

Good for you!! Just don't expect it to be easy. I've never seen an in-house separation be successful, yet. I have seen one where the man finally had enough of the WW's bs, and he actually became a WAH ......and it yanked his WW's senses back into her head. But it was b/c he found his b@lls, not b/c of in-house separation leading to reconciliation. As long as she gets to live under the same roof with her H and have her affair, too, she has the best of both worlds. She has all the benefits of the M without any responsibility.

And NGS, holy s*it, I am making improvements, but it is going to take longer than 3 months (or years) to fix 30+ years of NGS-related abuse and responses. One day at a time, right?

Absolutely! I think you are doing great. I do believe you share with your WW too much about your personal work on yourself, what you are learning, what is said in your private counseling sessions, etc. The MC is going to try and get you to pursue the M, which may cause some conflict in your head.....considering the NGS counseling, etc. IDK, maybe you have it all figured out. I'm very happy to hear you have a counselor that specializes in NGS. There is, or was, a forum just for men with NGS. I use to read some of the posts, and some of those guys sounded really tough talking amongst themselves. Last I checked, I don't think they even allow women to join the forum anymore (they used to have one little section for them, but no longer). And the posts were not open to the public as they once were. You have to be a member to view them. Anyway, last I read a few of those posts, I could see how a man could swing from being too much NGS to becoming a total jerk. So, try to stay balanced. ((hugs))

I don't know. The only words I have told her was that "I am working on being a better man and a better father". She was the one who said I was becoming a better version of myself I never uttered those words once. I will be more conscientious of what I say around her. I do suspect that she may be loosely following this but I have no proof.

Well, you told her not to check your bookmarks on the computer, so that's like saying "sic'em" to a dog. She's going to look! You have to protect your board activity, and closing your account doesn't prevent her from seeing what's been posted. It's a public forum. You could go under a new user name, if you want. Of course, you probably would get some repeated advice, if people like me couldn't figure out who you were (lol). It's just a thought, if you are concerned about her reading it. I feel like she's familiar with some of the "language" used around here. It was a dead give away in that statement she made about you "becoming the best version of yourself". So, what's done is done. I, for one, don't think it's a good idea for the spouse to see inside your tool box or know your game plan, but that's for you to decide about changing your user name. You'd still need to erase the computer history every time.

High emotional state sounds like a female. Women get in high emotional state b/c we are emotional creatures, sometimes called the weaker sex b/c of our capacity for high emotional state of mind. On the other hand, we women need our men to remain calm, in command, in charge, and strong enough to handle our high emotional state.

Got it. I have told her that I need a few days to calm down.

A strong, calm, masculine sounding respond would be something like, "I need time to think about things". In other words, you don't draw attention to your emotions, anxiety, nervousness, etc. Of course, you feel those emotions, and that's okay...…..I'm only suggesting something that will help you in giving a response that reflects "strength" to a woman. It's fine for her to know you need time to think......but she doesn't need to know you feel as though you are falling apart. See what I mean?

On that note, after W and I talked, she told me that she feeds off my emotions and that I need to "question where I am getting my advice from." If I had not found this board, I would have not addressed my issues that need remedied.

Ah! Do you know what that means? She feels she will lose control, b/c she knows too much about the advice you are receiving. So, no more sharing with her about your sessions, and cover your tracks as best you can on the computer. You see, your work is more effective when your spouse doesn't know what you are being advised to do about yourself, her, the stitch, etc. This is not like having a car repaired, where you sit and discuss what the mechanic suggested. Sorry, if that doesn't make sense, but it is the complexity of how it works in situations with a wayward spouse. I wish I could explain better.

You have a come a long way!