Finding the Balance and then Tipping the Scale

[SteveLW]

WAW only. WAW/WW. WAW/WW/w/MLC.

NONE OF IT MATTERS!!

The things you should be doing are the same. Detaching. Learn to be okay on your own! GAL. Don't be so wrapped up in your primary relationship. GAL is UBER important, so double-down on it. Look at your own toxic behavior and 180 on it.

Either you WAW, Or WW. Or W w/MLC will come around or she won't. Your focus is on YOURSELF, not on HER.

[MoveFrwd]

Amoafwl, I think you mentioned I haven't stated any hobbies of mine. For the last couple of months I've hit the gym Monday thru Thursday here at work after work for an hour to hour half or I go home to help with the kids then work out there. Want to realistically lose 60 more pounds but aiming for 100. Been watching what I eat, playing basketball with the kids, both love it. Started putting puzzles together of all things with the 6 year old. Completed a 1k piece one not too long ago. I have my art supplies I haven't touched in a long time. I was going to be an arts major long ago but stopped. I want some solice and trying to find the right time to get back into that, creating, painting. Hard to do when my 6 year old asks me to help him with his legos every 10 minutes. I've gone to the gym once on a weekend. I tend to sign up to do more of that. Maybe watch a couple movies by myself. Have tons of books to read.

I think it's VERY important that not only are you keeping active, but that you are out meeting peolpe. Im not talking about women to to date, but just PEOPLE and friends. People you can meet and hang out with without the umbrella of your marital situation hanging over you. Meeting new people that will know you as "Adam" and not "Adam and W" or whatever. Hitting the gym and getting back into painting are good starts to keep you active.....but they arent really going to necessarily fuel that self-esteem gain.

So are there hiking groups you can join? Or exercise classes you can join? Or art classes or meetups where you all paint something together or whatever. It doesnt really matter WHAT the activity is. It's just essential to get OUT there and do things for you.

Make yourself a priority.

[sandi2]

Amoafwl is giving you good advice. I don't know that's it's necessary for me to respond to the questions you asked regarding my statements on the WW threads, but I'll do my best.

Originally Posted by Sandi2

That leads me to the second part. As the rejected party, the H cannot enable her in this terrible, disrespectful behavior. Every time he does, it will set him back. Before he can show her what a wonderful & improved H he wants to be, he has to prove what kind of man he is. All of this still comes under the heading of DBing.

Originally Posted by Wonka

For DBing to be successful, the LBH needs to come down HARD on the WAW because the emotional allure is like a powerful riptide tearing her and the M asunder.

Originally Posted by Wonka

2-LOSE YOUR FEAR of WAW. Reclaim your balls back from her purse.
3-Pull out the "not willing to live in an open M/no-OM boundary" script.

( I need more information on all the above, are there breakdowns of what these mean and what specific actions to do/NOT do?)

Well, that's a tall order. I don't know that I can do it in one post, unless you can be a little more specific about what you don't understand.

A lot of WW's are extremely manipulative. By the time the H comes to the board for help, his WW has usually stepped over several of the H's personal boundaries, and maybe even boundaries in the M. However, we find many H's filled with so much fear that they are paralyzed to stand up for themselves. They want to apply soft, sweet, bubble soap to the dirty WW situation......and it just doesn't get the job done. (Refer to my description of the WW mindset.) When he reads about men taking back their b@lls, he wants to pull out and find something that will tell him to buy her flowers, clean the toilets for her, have long talks by the fireside, and act like her BFF. Some guys don't even know what we mean by reclaiming his b@lls. They don't realize that when they have a WW, it's all about her loss of respect for him as a man/husband. The lack of respect has killed her desire/attraction for him. Until he gets her respect, none of that other stuff works to draw her desire for him as a man. He has to work on the respect factor, first. When dealing with a WW, that means he has to show her that she can't run over him. He's not going to be her doormat.

Some WW's bully the H. It may have started out in a more subtle manner after the wedding, but over time, it increased. Some WW's are spoiled. He was focused on trying to make her happy, and keeping the peace. It was all about her...…...to the point that he dreaded the possibility of her being upset or angry at him. So, he did everything he could to keep her satisfied. In the process, she took his b@lls, and now it may feel a little scary for him to think about taking back his b@lls. Why? B/c it requires him standing up for himself...….which usually means standing up to her when she's disrespecting him. Calling her out when she shows disrespect toward him. Enforcing boundaries (which means she has some type of consequences due to her disrespect). He has to first respect himself as a man, before he can expect her to respect him.

It only means that the man starts acting like a man, instead of a scared little boy who has a angry mommy. It means the man enforces boundaries to protect his feelings, dignity, self-esteem, etc., from this person who is trying to tear him down and ruin their MR. It means he shows he has enough backbone to stand up and say he won't take that type of disrespect any longer. However, his actions speak louder than any vocal cords every could.

At the point where his WW is in an affair, it's like she is on drugs. He cannot reach her with some "soft" method he read in some book that tells how to put spark back into the MR in ten easy steps. Things have progressed way, way past that point. Unfortunately, once a man has lost his W's respect, he can't nice it back again. He can't sweet talk back the respect, or do enough housework, etc. I wished it worked that way, but it doesn't. Even if a WW gives him a list of complaints as her reason for D...….it's nothing but b.s. The true reason is that she doesn't feel in love with him. Some of those complaints might have been legit, back in the day, but now he could perfect everything on that list and it would not change her heart. She still would not respect him as a man. That's what I wish newcomer men would get through their heads. Forget housework being the secret to her heart. She wants you to act like a man who will not accept bad treatment from her or anyone else. She needs to admire you as a man.

Wonka is giving an example of a boundary. The boundary is, "I will not live in an open marriage". If that's your boundary, then don't be afraid to say it But, let me also add that if you are not prepared to back up your word, then be careful what you say. Some guys think by saying these words, it stops the WW from cheating. It doesn't. If she continues, then the ball is in his court. What's he going to do? If he continues staying in the MR, then he didn't enforce his boundary. See what I mean? He can't allow his fear of losing her dictate weak (or no) actions She has a choice to either honor his boundary and end the affair, or dishonor it and continue her affair. If she dishonors his boundary of not living in an open M, then the "action" is up to him to do. He either physically separates from her, or files for D. (NOTE: Don't share any of this with her. This is just for you.)

This is the ultimate example of enforcing a boundary. Enforcing means you stick to protecting your feelings. You can't control her actions, but you control what you do in response to her disrespect. You take the necessary steps to protect yourself from her actions/behavior again. It can't be some type of wimpy move. It has to have consequences for her. FWIW, that's why I don't agree with in-house separation, b/c it has all the benefits and no consequences for her. See what I mean? She's living under the same roof, but separated? How do you do that? In her viewpoint, she gets to do whatever she wants, plus you're suppose to continue playing the role of husband and happy family...….until bedtime, then you go into your room, and she goes into hers. She benefits from the M and has no consequences for her affair, cheating, girls gone wild behavior, or whatever. In other words, she has your b@lls in a crunch...….cause, whatcha gonna do?

When reading the guidelines for LBH's with a WW, you can skim over the replies from others (Hope that doesn't sound bad to say.) .....but please don't skim over my posts in those threads, b/c I tried to point out these things you are asking.

Yes I know I said too much but it also felt good to let her know I wasn't scared to lose her.

Just remember, actions work better than words when dealing with a WW. I'm glad if felt good to you, just realize you may have to back up your words. Words work as an emotional lever and gives us a temporary relief, but they aren't near as effective as action.

When she texts, not going to jump on it. Maybe not even respond like tonight when I was working out.

The point is not so much about ignoring her as it is about not allowing her texts to consume your time, thoughts, and energy. She didn't want in the MR, remember? Once she wants back in a loving MR, then you can focus more on texting. Until then, use two or three words for your response.....or an emojo. LBH's get so wordy! WW's use texting as way to keep the H emotionally attached. She'll send him photos of the kids, text him to ask how the kids are (as if he's not capable of caring for them), or just to temp check him about something. So, if you'll stick to using as few words as possible to answer her texts, I think it will help you get a better handle on it. You'll also start to see how she'll try to get that control back.

As for laundry, she still does mine.... I .. will.... tell... her … not... to...do...that... anymore /sadface. When it comes to buying meals or dinner, I might tell her no need.

I wouldn't go that far right now. Let's work this other stuff out, first. I mean, it's complicated enough living under the same roof.

I don't think you should jump up and leave the room every time she enters. It's your home, so try to be as comfortable as you can. I recommend you try to spend most evenings and weekends away from the house. Don't get all cozy with her on the couch, watching chick flicks. Know what I mean?

Definitely wont be catering to her but sometimes in the past we went out and she'd say I'm not bringing my wallet... is this the time to let her know we will be going dutch?

If you are separated, why are you going out together? See, this is one of those blurred lines when living in-house S, and the WW benefits from playing like one big happy family.

(In between typing this was also reading the WW series and the Reflections. I do have questions like in the past when she said, "I am wanting to go with my friend for the weekend to the company yearly golf event" if I said I don't agree with it and she insists, what can I do at that point besides trying to rationalize with her?

Let's look at a non-wayward, first. You need to understand that she's not asking for your permission. She's an adult, and unless she is asking you to pay for the expenses, keep the children, or something along those lines...….then she really doesn't have to ask. Some non-wayward W's ask if it's alright, but that's a polite way of just checking with her H to let him know what she wants to do. Frankly, I don't think it's enough for him to just say he doesn't agree......especially if they are not having marital problems. What is he not agreeing with? If I were the W, I would appreciate knowing what he had a problem with. Had he made previous plans for that weekend? Did he not approve of my friend, or where we were going? See what I mean?

Now, if she is wayward and you suspect her of cheating, and suspect she might be going to meet OM...…..what can you do to stop it? You tell her you don't agree? Then what? You don 't actually believe that will stop her, do you?

She wants for both of us to drive our boys to an out of town Christmas light show next week. I said sure thinking about the holidays may be the exception for family time.. Thanksgiving is coming up and we will be doing a small family get together. Are there posts on the best way to handle these events?

It's probably the most challenging time to be in an in-house separation. She's going to want to play happy family as though nothing has changed in the MR. It's my opinion that she needs to see that's not how it works. But, it's usually the H who has just as much trouble denying the WW these shared family moments...….especially when it revolves around Thanksgiving and Christmastime.

When she was working from home on my computer the other day, she had her Citrix up and I saw the company email... go ahead and let her do her own thing and not care or is this where we put our foot down? This is the confusing part, We stop the disrespect if she says something, I get we challenge but what about the other stuff like the going out, the events? How do we come down hard regarding those things with her time and how/where/who she wants to spend it with?

Okay, first of all you are separated! Now I don't know what you mean by putting your foot down, but usually it means you forbid something or you stop putting up with it one way or another. If you start telling her what she can and can't do...…..she will accuse you of trying to control her. And, she'll remind you that you're separated and it's none of your business what she does. If you feel disrespected, then what else can you do? Maybe you can think of something, but ultimately, you can physically separate, or get a divorce. The consequences need to fit the crime, so to speak.

My suggestion about something she does that makes you feel disrespected under your own roof, is to tell her you feel she is disrespecting you. Then tell her if she continues with the same behavior that you cannot continue living with her under the same roof. That's not meant as a threat. It is a boundary, and if she does not honor it, then one of you will be packing and leaving. If you can't stand behind it, then don't say it. Also, remember physical separation and divorce is the ultimate consequences you have to give. I'm not sure what you were talking about her having her Citrix up and the company email. What does that mean?

Sandi, didn't earlier you say get a schedule and we use that for things like this? Don't question her, don't do nothing about where she goes etc right? Is this coming down hard, meaning we can care less what she does? By showing her we don't care, she'll care?

The "coming down hard" that I talked about in the WW threads, is in regard to how/what a H should do when dealing with a WW. When she's verbally and overtly disrespecting him. And especially when he discovers she has been deceiving and betraying him, and is in an affair. But once you have separated in the M, then you are limited to what you can do. She's going to do whatever she wants, and if there are no consequences, then there's no skin off her back.

Are you separated or not? If you are, then act like a separated couple! Have a schedule, so you can plan ahead GAL activities. Show each other respect while staying together under the same roof. You don't care what she does in her personal time...…..but when she's there under the same roof with you, she has to be respectful. She can't talk to you like you are a dog, curse at you, make you the butt of a joke in front of others, or put you down in front of your kids, throw tantrums, etc. You know when people do things that are disrespectful. So, you surely know when she is not showing respect to you. But since you agreed to an in-house separation, I don't know if there were any stipulations about seeing other people, or her affair, or whatever. When a WW is in some type of an affair, an in-house separation does nothing to stop it.

So anyway, it's not about trying to control what she does. It's about treating one another with as much respect as you would give anyone else who was paying for room/board there. That's how you should treat her, and you should expect the same from her. If she can't show you at least that much respect, then tell her this arrangement is not working. If she doesn't try to do better, then you should probably physically separate or divorce.

But when it comes to words, we check the disrespect? Need more info on this, I think I asked above.... Need to know when we check her disrespect, what's appropriate and what is not, like what's over the top.

Verbal disrespect, and the types I named above, are never okay. No matter the living the arrangement, you don't put up with any of that cr@p from her, and especially in front of your kids. IMHO, it would be disrespectful for her to openly talk to OM in your presence. She should have the decency to go to her room, at least. I really think texting is very rude at the dinner table, especially when it's to OM...… but there's not much you can do, other than tell her to have the decency to go to her room if she's going to communicate with him. (Don't tell her in front of the kids.) As MWD says, choose your battles. You have to choose which hill to die on, sometimes. Sometimes you can just call her out about something.....and it takes care of it. Depending on what "it" is. If she is leaving the computer monitor open to something you find offensive, or inappropriate for the kids to see...….and this is somewhere other than the privacy of her bedroom......then just tell her. When a WW is in the thick of an affair, she can get very careless.....b/c she isn't thinking normally.

Sorry for such a long post. I don't know if I addressed all your questions, but if not, you can ask again...….if I didn't break the Internet.

[Adam04]

Steve, you're right, the focus is not on them or what category they fit into since the most important thing is our well being. I'm putting more time into reading the stickies, finally got done with the boundaries, the WW series, and am starting to read other people's stories. I notice that many of the sitches sound very familiar, I am so sad about it but at the same time I am hopeful for many people. When I see the same advice given to other people, I want to see them succeed because I know it's sound advice. It resonates better when said to other people and takes a minute to sink in when we're the ones being told. It's like we can empathize with others and we identify quickly, but when we're told the same thing, we let all of our negative emotions get in the way.

Amoafwl, making myself a priority is pretty on point, and it's everything right now. There's a whole, wide world out there to still explore and be a part of. Even though I am going through this, I am happy. Since I started to open up here and get the support and not worry about the W, people have noticed me being happy more often. I get comments at work. People think I'm seeing/spending my time with someone, if only they knew it was you all, LOL. I think next step is joining the gym I went to on the weekend and seeing if they have a group there. I usually work out by myself at the gym at work. It would be nice to meet new people.


Sandi, I'm so amazed at the amount of time you take to really break things down. I never mind a good read.

If you are separated, why are you going out together? See, this is one of those blurred lines when living in-house S, and the WW benefits from playing like one big happy family.

We take the kids out to eat a lot. Don't know how to change this dynamic other than saying you can't go with us. We don't go anywhere together. We were going out to eat with her family all the time. Her brother and sister are close friends of mine as well. Knew them before meeting her. So we all go hang out a lot. One of her older brothers I would always play football with.

Are you separated or not? If you are, then act like a separated couple! Have a schedule, so you can plan ahead GAL activities. Show each other respect while staying together under the same roof. You don't care what she does in her personal time...…..but when she's there under the same roof with you, she has to be respectful. She can't talk to you like you are a dog, curse at you, make you the butt of a joke in front of others, or put you down in front of your kids, throw tantrums, etc. You know when people do things that are disrespectful.

We have a board up for that we jot down important dates on, to help coordinate with the kids. I've been trying to practice these runs in my head on what she would typically say that's bad or mean and disrespectful, like maybe tell my older son you're just like your dad if he's taking his time. Next time she says something like that I'm grabbing the stakes. She can get mean but she's not very confrontational... And we've never allowed that sort of disrespect in our house, not on that kind of level. I know she is disrespectful in her own right. I do know however that I need to be very careful in this perception, she may be very genuine in her disgust but just be very bad at insults. I mean, we got here to this point from that so seriously taking stock of it.

One day we ordered our son some food and went over to her brother's house for dinner, and she was looking through the bag and started to yell, I thought you ordered him some fries like really angry over some damn fries… then my son told her, mom it's there, its chili cheese fries. Then she dismisses it and says oh, nevermind. Her sister even commented on her being mean. I should have checked her on that and demanded some of those chili fries as well. This was after the BD. She's the type where she would make a quip under her breathe and I'm so bad at hearing, it's like a blessing around them...

I also want to add about D. Her older sister was going through a D and managed to stay very close to the XH when they were co-parenting their kids who are now in their teens. The sister would go on vacations with the XH and his wife to be with the kids. I truly think W thinks this will happen with us too. W and her siblings are all close, they gossip and talk about everything and everyone, even her brother, my close friend. I tend to ignore them all when it comes to that. They used to trash talk the XH and now it seems like I'm up since W tells me what they think of me when I'm not around like how I changed for the better, etc... I just don't do the cattiness... anyhoos, that's ranting.

IMHO, it would be disrespectful for her to openly talk to OM in your presence. She should have the decency to go to her room, at least. I really think texting is very rude at the dinner table, especially when it's to OM...… but there's not much you can do, other than tell her to have the decency to go to her room if she's going to communicate with him.

Before I sound like i am defending her, I know something is up. One day she was sitting in front on passenger side when I was driving about a month or so ago and I noticed this bruise on the inside of her thigh and called her out on it asking how she got that. It made her uncomfortable the whole day, she tried to cover it up... and later at a friends house she "accidentally" bumps into a low, much lower end table and she says something stupid like oh see this is how I get these bruises... I'm thinking, no I used to put them peach marks on you like that. It looked like a small clump of vericose veins popping if you ask me.

But yeah, she's not open about it , none of it. She is going to hide this forever because she can not be seen as the villain to her family for breaking up our M. Her mother and father have lived in separate rooms for decades because they did not believe in divorce and if her mother found out, she will never hear the end of it. She will never come clean and it's sad. She told me she didn't want to live like her mother and father. She once told me she wanted to move on with the next chapter in her life. I'm willing to try my damndest for the family and the kids' sake, but i don't know... as a man feeling like i have to put up with this.

Sometimes I wonder if it matters if i know or don't know who this person is... like if either one is better. So no, i don't have to at least deal with the in your face type stuff, and she has slept with the kids in the bed with her ever since she left to the other room so she is not going to expose them to some stranger.

There was one time recently I questioned her texting on her watch to someone but at the same time she was texting her family because I saw them responding coming through on the phone when my 6year old was watching her phone next to me. I could have easily grabbed it and checked the texts but I cant stoop that low, we were in a restaurant but i do say this, when i took my 6 year old to the restroom to wash his hands and he left the phone on the table, she was eyeing me the whole time. her seat has its back to the restroom so she turned herself around to watch me go inside the mens restroom. when the door closed i saw her still looking. its this kind of stuff that makes me want to do the tough love thing.


I'm dealing with this better and better each day. If I had the means I would be out somewhere else right now but since I have to be here for a while, I'm going to use it as practice and make the best of it. If i was away, I wouldn't be able to have this kind of opportunity to possibly turn her around and gain some respect.

[Adam04]

Hi Adam,

A few pointers:


I tend to believe that with IHS 4 things happen:

- The one with the weakest character will lose
- The WWS can adjust the behaviour pattern until they reach the bare minimum necessary to sucker the LBS
- The WWS can continue to be WW and test how good they are at covering up
- The LBS never really moves on, gets a life or focuses on themselves as they are always checking with the WWS through the corner of their eyes.

Max

3 sticks out the most here. I'll do my best to let go and get a life. Get that swag back.

[sandi2]

We take the kids out to eat a lot. Don't know how to change this dynamic other than saying you can't go with us. We don't go anywhere together. We were going out to eat with her family all the time. Her brother and sister are close friends of mine as well. Knew them before meeting her. So we all go hang out a lot. One of her older brothers I would always play football with.

What is the purpose of taking the kids out to eat a lot? Is it b/c it's faster/easier than cooking at home? I think you need to know "why" you were going out to eat as family all the time. Was she the one who encouraged it?

Word of caution about her brother and sister being close friends of yours...…...they are her family. Until this M is dissolved or resolved, you should back off hanging out with them. I'm not saying you'll never be able to be friends again, but until later, it's best to not be all buddy-buddy with them. You cannot use them as confidants/counselors/mediators. They are her family, not yours (no matter how close you feel to them). That applies to any of her friends outside of family. You don't need to confide in them how you feel, or your intentions, or what you would want if the M reconciled. Don't trust her friends. And, don't use her family members as a means to get to her. These type of situations can make family feel caught in the middle and have to choose sides.

I've been trying to practice these runs in my head on what she would typically say that's bad or mean and disrespectful, like maybe tell my older son you're just like your dad if he's taking his time. Next time she says something like that I'm grabbing the stakes.

That's a more subtle sign of disrespect (depending on "what" "is just like your dad") the tone of voice, etc. The first time you call her out, you can quietly tell her in private that it is inappropriate for a parent to put down the other parent to the child or in the child's presence. IMHO, you need to start with the more severe verbal signs of disrespect. Like, if she's screaming at you, trash talking, b'tching, calling you names, put downs, demanding/bossing, etc. (especially in front of the kids). Just remember, it goes both ways. If you need to call her out about something, don't do in front of the kids.

I know she is disrespectful in her own right. I do know however that I need to be very careful in this perception, she may be very genuine in her disgust but just be very bad at insults. I mean, we got here to this point from that so seriously taking stock of it.

Right, and even the nonconfrontational women have their unique ways of showing disrespect. You know her better than anyone, so whenever you see it......don't sweep it under the rug. "Disgust" is an accurate description of how most WW's feel toward their H. When I told one LBH this, he said I was being very harsh. But he could not grasp just how loathsome some WW's feel toward the H they no longer respect. I believe the degree/level of one WW is not the measurement for all WW's, however, all WW's do have some contempt. It's all a part of that mindset that started with resentment, disrespect, and rebellion......and now it's come to the surface and is more evident.

One day we ordered our son some food and went over to her brother's house for dinner, and she was looking through the bag and started to yell, I thought you ordered him some fries like really angry over some damn fries… then my son told her, mom it's there, its chili cheese fries. Then she dismisses it and says oh, nevermind. Her sister even commented on her being mean. I should have checked her on that and demanded some of those chili fries as well. This was after the BD. She's the type where she would make a quip under her breathe and I'm so bad at hearing, it's like a blessing around them...

I know the type. She has been allowed to act this way, without any consequences. People either ignored her bad behavior as best they could, or tried to appease her, calm her down, or whatever. But, it was no skin off her back (as the old saying goes). This type of behavior is a type of manipulation. It comes from being spoiled.....or a lot of anger issues. Until there is skin off her own back (some type of consequences for this type of bad behavior) she doesn't care and won't change. The longer this type has been allowed to explode and rant when some little something doesn't go to suit her...…...the tougher it is to "tame her" (so to speak). However, when she KNOWS the H is through with her tantrums (for real), it's just amazing how calm she can become, and hold her wretched tongue. Some WW's are like rebellious and unruly children.

I should have checked her on that and demanded some of those chili fries as well.

I hope you aren't serious! Demanding some of those chili fries is hardly a consequence for a grown woman throwing a fit.

The sister would go on vacations with the XH and his wife to be with the kids. I truly think W thinks this will happen with us too.

Then leave no doubt in her mind that that will never be the case if you split. Was the sister remarried? B/c I can't imagine the 2nd W being happy that the 1st W was along on the trip. That's being a little too close, if you ask me.

I'm thinking, no I used to put them peach marks on you like that.

What are "peach marks"?

But yeah, she's not open about it , none of it. She is going to hide this forever because she can not be seen as the villain to her family for breaking up our M. Her mother and father have lived in separate rooms for decades because they did not believe in divorce and if her mother found out, she will never hear the end of it. She will never come clean and it's sad. She told me she didn't want to live like her mother and father. She once told me she wanted to move on with the next chapter in her life. I'm willing to try my damndest for the family and the kids' sake, but i don't know... as a man feeling like i have to put up with this.

How important is it, to you, that she comes clean to her family? I haven't seen many cases where the WW just volunteers that information to her family. She may give them the "version" she wants them to believe. However, it's up to you to not live in a way that compromises your own integrity. Just b/c you don't know the OM, or have proof in writing, doesn't mean you have to live as if she's pulled the wool over your eyes. She is well on her way of living out the role her parents set while she was growing up. You don't have to put up with living with a wayward W, for the kids' sake. They deserve to see a healthy, respectful M between their parents, and if that's not possible, then what's the next step?

Grabbing her phone away from her is not the kind of behavior I recommend.

[Adam04]

Journaling:

Spending the morning typing away so it will be longwinded...


WEEKLY RECAP :

The week has been good. Minimal time spent between WW and I, and we were cordial and respectful during dinner time with the kids. Spent most of my week working, working out at the gym for about 2 hours, then rereading the stickies, just getting to understand all this information and apply what I can in my current situation at this time.

Two things stick out from the week that I wanted to share.

Thing 1:

There was one day when my older one got into trouble at school for a vulgar caption he and his friends wrote for Turkey Day. WW had him write an apology letter to the teachers, but he was still afraid of when I got home. WW is not the disciplinarian. I am. She's never spanked our boys. I was/am the enforcer.

I get home, 10 year old son tells me what happened and when I am talking to him, W interrupts trying to placate, saying she's already had him write an apology letter and took away certain privileges. I asked her to don't interrupt because its disrespectful while I am teaching our son.(I thought this was a good time to check her controlling behavior) I let my son know we both agree what he did was wrong but that we both also have our own ways of disciplining. if I felt something was really severe, then I'd need to spank him. I told him a couple of weeks ago not to say the G word and to be careful of saying derogatory things for various reasons. One because it's just plain wrong and two, because he doesn't know who can hear them and it could hurt someone's feelings.

S10 plays a lot of online games, plus one of his teenage cousins was openly posting things about his sexuality and is going through some things. W and I agree to embrace and love kids growing up no matter their preference. We want our son to respect differences. He doesn't know his cousin is finding himself and has a hard time dealing with a lot of issues right now. This is the kid whose mom got the divorce and was acting like she was still part of the family going on vacations with the ex-husband and his wife.

I used my son's negative behavior to address something, getting caught. I asked my son what he was thinking in front of my wife. He wasn't sure what angle I was coming from. I asked him if he thought the punishment fit the crime. I asked if he thought about the consequences. He stumbled. I said, did you think you were going to write an apology letter or that I would spank you. He didn't say anything. I asked to make sure he understood, did you think of how bad the consequences would be when you wrote what you did? I said most likely you were not expecting to get caught. Someone else who did the right thing reported you and you can not get mad at that person for doing the right thing. I asked if he knew what he was doing was wrong and he said yes but he was pressured by the other kids, the peer pressure. I told him to never allow other people to influence him to do something against his morals, his beliefs.

I also took this opportunity to share with my wife another incident, the night before when she was asleep, where his online friend tried to scam him. I rehashed the incident to her letting her know he was afraid to accept his friend was scamming/lied to him and that we proved it was a scam so we took action to ban the friend and never talk to him again. I told my son to believe his gut instinct and that there will always be people in life who will lie. The point I told him between the two is that there are people who will influence him in a negative way and there are ones who will prey on him and in both he knew better and just needs to follow what is right even though it can be very tough either case.

After I disciplined my son in the other room, I talked to him, asked if he had any questions about what happened, and we hugged it out and we said we loved each other. He understood why what happened, happened. Sometimes my W doesn't agree or understand why I tell my son I love him and hug him afterwards. She says he needs time to process. She's never in the room with I discipline our son. She said that I say I love him and hug him because -I- needed it, not him. Although she was right in that it helped me too, I did that also for him to let him know I wasn't angry. I feel like she would rather not say anything, than take the extra step.

Later when he fell asleep, she asked me what I thought about the drawing and what he wrote. He had written some other stuff that was not appropriate for his age and she was concerned, I said because he games with older kids, he's exposed to that kind of talk. He and I had a rule if he learned something bad, he should not repeat it, let it be a lesson in what NOT to do or say. We cant shelter him forever but we can guide him , steer him right. I can't believe this though. She said yeah and he has to do better in not getting caught. She honestly said that at a time like this. I can understand if we were on mutual ground, on better terms between us as loving parents and all but she lost her mind.

I didn't want to say yeah don't get caught cheating like his mother is trying to do, like mother like son...but i guess she heard her words and dropped it. I mean I get it, its like if you help your friend with the answers right, you don't want to get caught for trying to do what you thought was right but was wrong OPPOSED to just all wrong.

Then W asked if the double entendre was meant for her. I said, we're adults trying to teach our son what's right and wrong and either said something or asked about what she may have seen from it. I think what i told her was that when it comes to right and wrong, we know as adults what that is, and it can be applied to adults just as to children but it was directed to him. Her face was contorted like she was wanting to burst. If I had to be honest, I was a bit passive aggressive I think, but I'm not too keen on that behavior. Someone let me know if that's right. I will say this, I know better than to keep throwing stuff in her face. I feel like that's abuse, emotional abuse and she is so conflicted, I feel pity for the person. Still no right to do what she is doing, but as a human and mother of my children, I have compassion for her. There's this part of me that keeps on wanting to say "you know i know what you did, that you're cheating on me right?!?" as if that would get some type of response that I want. "I alrdy peeped this game." That doesn't work and will not work. She knows and if I do anything more it will just be me degrading myself. I am definitely better than that.

Thing 2:

The other thing deals with this weekend and our commitments. We are taking our little one to 2 birthday parties one for her side of the family and one for my friend's daughter's bday.(As I'm typing this, they have come to the study several times, my S6, his cousin, and her. I told her I'm not going to the first bday party for her side of the family, change of plans since she said its no problem and we can go to my friend's party later, I want to blog.... get away from her, have been in the house with her all morning, in separate rooms of course but she ins trying to temp check several times.. even once poked my leg with the little one and then came running in here with the little one spanking me on the butt. Oh how we used to have playful times with the 6 year old doing that. And oh how deceitful to think we're still the same big, happy family. She also been hearing me type and checking my monitor when she's been in here. Got this up on one browser and another browser up when she comes in. I haven't set a boundary for space yet since it's not like she's trying to get physical, if she does that then yeah, I'd clearly address it then.)

Later that same night, after my older one went to bed, I asked her if there were any rules we should have or wanted to discuss in talking about our separation to our friends in a group environment. She was a little startled that I asked. I told her I was asking because I respected her enough to have her input. She had said something, wish I could remember and I commented on the fact that she took her ring off and was comfortable to let everyone know then, and that I had to apologize for asking her to put it back on until after the divorce. I told her I should not have asked her to do that and wanted to know if she was ready to tell our friends. I was okay either way. ( I felt like I was being respectful in letting her know in our given situation very specific on what was to come and not talking in what ifs or hypotheticals, that I was okay in letting them know we are heading towards divorce and that I am okay with it so that she can see I'm not scared or hiding, to release that control from her (that's how I see it in my mind anyhows, that by being secretive of our situation to others I don't want it to happen so as long as we keep it undercovers, she still has some sort of control over the situation.) Your thoughts on this?

The first thing she said is that she is not ready for the divorce and she knows she needs to sort things out. I was quiet and said okay. okay. She commented on my change in behavior and said she liked it. I told her all these things she sees me doing was preparing myself for when she and the kids are no longer around. Her face was all over the place that night like trying to figure me out. I also told her I apologized for how I was in the beginning, for being weak and trying to tell her what she could or could not do, by trying t control her. She said it felt that way.

I now remember that I did ask her to promise one thing that if she was cheating to wait until we have a divorce. I think I said this the night after the BD. She said she wasn't cheating but okay she'd promise. So back to current talk, she has in her head this timeline of when the house will be ready that she is finding herself until then and when the house is ready she will see if she can forgive me for not trusting her. wait a minute... I almost laughed. I told her we both have things we need to think about now. She asked what do you mean, i didn't want to point blank say hey i know you are cheating on me and haven't said with who or when or provided details, but i know(i pretty much said this in a previous convo with her so no need to keep bringing it up)...so in a round about way, I said there are things that have lead to this moment, seeds planted by both of us that have grown into this thing that has split us. She said she knows her communication was one of the issues, I did take that opportunity to say we can say that that is the tip of the iceberg and that there is a lot of underlying issues to that. She agreed. Instead of validating that night, we both found ourselves agreeing to what the other was saying in a respectful way. So back to the original question, we both agreed we can tell whoever whatever we want, but 1 on 1 is best. Just putting everything out there to announce to everyone was bad form. I ended the conversation and went to the MBR and locked the door.


Weekend:

Today I feel like I am on both sides of the seesaw, up and down. I was reading a post that made me wonder if there were multiple AP. I thought about my sitch and how I would feel. I thought of my past experiences in life, growing up as a devout Christian boy who wasn't short of his mistakes in life, growing into a young man, navigating the unknown, having all the wrong kinds of influences in my life. I made my own mistakes, I wasn't always faithful to one person. I thought I was young and experiencing life and that the outcome didn't matter to me or the other person. There was a time when I was dating that I had moved out to be by myself, I told her that I wanted a break, unsure of what I wanted, to experience what it would be like to be away from my then GF who is my W now. I imagine, I was feeling all she is feeling now. I had done what she is doing now. She gave me space, I moved out. She didn't force anything. We were cordial. We were around each other enough to still leave some type of imprint. She got me back not by pursuing but by being my friend. I had to stop my wicked ways. When we got married I vowed to never allow myself to be this old me, part of that old me she was very much attracted to. I gained what I called the daddy weight. I lost sight of the person I was for reasons of my own not realizing she was attracted to THAT guy and what I was replacing it with, a charming, loving father and a normal every day working guy that's "just there" (maybe) as a husband is not what she wants.

I remember early in the year the Bumble app was on all our i-devices. We were at her sister's house. Someone downloaded the dating app. I thought it wasn't me, my son told W that it was on his ipad. She said it wasn't her. We checked and its on my iPhone. i remember getting so much flak from everyone... I remember downloading stuff that day but not that app. Today this morning i thought about what if she's seeing other people through a dating app, it works by swiping back and forth, what if she downloaded it. So much stuff went through my mind and i wonder how I would handle it. So instead of not caring, I check the download source and sure enough I was the one who did it, but while checking that, the day after BD, the day after i told her i logged into her text messages and saw she told someone it was over, she installs SKYPE. she said something before about it like oh its for work. we use it a lot etc etc. She doesn't know I know she downloaded it after BD so i cant track her talking to whomever. This is earlier today, I look at her the same. i try to keep my distance as much as possible, I try to be respectful. I'm working with what i got in the best way i know how. I've let the thoughts cross my mind that it could be the worst, what if it is, does it change anything... no.

I need help with boundaries. I think there is little I can provide. That night when we did talk about our son getting into trouble, setting rules, I told her that I have to look out for myself and that I would hope she has enough respect that if she was to text someone that it's not in my presence or with the kids or I would leave. This is before I knew of the skype being downloaded specifically as a means for her to talk to whoever. I knew it was available for her to use but i thought she could have been texting too maybe... i think i scared her into not texting when i said something about contesting a divorce if she did go through with it. I'm apparently helping her make sure her cheating game is wrapped tight.

In my in house separation sitch, is there much more I can do with setting boundaries if we don't argue much, if she's not saying disrespectful things and not doing anything in my face... i know its "under my nose" but for the time being, I'm working on other stuff and was just curious if there should be other boundaries that I'm being oblivious to. I don't want to set boundaries to just trying to set boundaries.

is there anything i can do about future conversations when she tries to deceive me and say nothing happened? What would a boundary like that look like? i want to try creating one that works for me, because of her lies.

If she says, well i am angry that i cant trust you that you think i would cheat on you.

Instead of listing items off the checklist saying these are clear examples and enough for me to go on, what can i say? Should it start like, " i know you are having an affair and every time you lie to deceive me, i feel like we are not ??

I don't know … i feel like if that comes up, i should just shut up, maybe agree with her that or marriage wont work under these circumstances and not get into all that. just leave. she lies, she deceives, i leave or end the convo.

What is the purpose of taking the kids out to eat a lot? Is it b/c it's faster/easier than cooking at home? I think you need to know "why" you were going out to eat as family all the time. Was she the one who encouraged it?

We've eaten out or ordered in about 5 out of 7 days for the last 15 years. We both barely know how to cook. As she made more money, she was able to go the quick and easy route. If she did make something to eat, she would buy all prechopped veggies. I'd grill food from maybe a couple times a week down to once every couple months now.

Word of caution about her brother and sister being close friends of yours...…...they are her family. Until this M is dissolved or resolved, you should back off hanging out with them. I'm not saying you'll never be able to be friends again, but until later, it's best to not be all buddy-buddy with them.

I totally agree. I don't trust them. I don't like the cattiness. I teach my son blood is thicker than water so I know.

What are "peach marks"?

bruises on leg because she can bruise like a peach. easy to bruise on inner thigh, sometimes from rough "play"
i saw a bruise the other day on the inside upper thigh and thought she could have had a PA. Just coming to terms with it and sharing. Putting it out there and seeing how I react and handle it.

as for coming clean to her family, its not that important. I thought it would be, maybe because I felt that any honesty would some sort of semblance of the person I once knew but I know better...

[Adam04]

I hope you aren't serious! Demanding some of those chili fries is hardly a consequence for a grown woman throwing a fit.

Yes, I was kidding.

I have to add, when I was breaking all the rules in the first two months after BD, I was also standing up for myself. I hadn't realized this important piece until now, reflecting back.

When you talked about not allowing the WW to disrespect, I was thinking of verbal spats, but we had texted a lot and she would say something negative and because I was angry I wasn't going to shut up. She would try to say I was bad in doing this or that or say I wasn't a good father, I would say wait a damn minute, maybe you can say I didn't take out the trash as fast as you wanted, but I know I was a damn good father to the boys. She would later say yes I am sorry, you were/are. I was just angry and not thinking right. Can you forgive me or chalk this up to a bad day. Oh how I put ALL of that into one big mess of us "just arguing" and breaking rules but now I see why she hasn't really been that way verbally lately. I was waiting for this phase or thing to happen in regular conversation. We did go through that in texts. That's when we said to let it chill, the texting... because she would say something and then I would say something. I hope this helps

be the rock, detach, distance as much as possible, be respectful, do things for myself and for the kids, GAL... and expect nothing.

[Adam04]

Daily journaling


Last night I went through my old texts to my W and I saw how bad it was. I am so ashame at how much a$$kissing I had done in being nice, then angry, then super nice catering to her, yes dear, anything you say, I will always love you. We can work this out, then it’s all your damn fault, explicitive explicitive. Then back to sure, I can do this or help with that... anything you say love... So unstable, so much like her, so embarrassing. There were some good points made but I see how they can get lost, especially to a confused WW.

After I read my texts, I went back to read the rules, each one... trying to remember them, knowing I won’t, that it’ll take a lot of time. But I know where they’re at and I’ll refer to them often.

Yesterday, W, S6, his cousin6, and I went to my friend’s daughter’s bday party. She’s also 6. W was outside mostly away from everyone, and we kept our distance. I mingled, didn’t bring anything up. It was good for the kids. We left there to meet up with my siblings for dinner. 1 brother kinda knows of our sitch, but the others there didn’t. W sits next to me( which she hardly ever does), talks to them about the house, we’re all talking like one big, happy family. My siblings have known W all their lives. I think one point she slips and calls me baby. Trust me, in one, out the other. It was a nice dinner. It was easier to not bring up messy stuff ... not the time.

During the trip from the bday party to dinner, W gets a text from the guy who usually texts her at work more than anyone else I’ve seen. I thought this was from her sister who she was also texting, MyS10 is on a holiday trip with the sister and they recently landed at their destination so I asked if it was the sister. W tells me it’s that guy and there’s a work problem so she has to call the terminal to get some info and texts him back. No big deal. I let it go. He’s a client. Can’t think much of it, or else I would be sabotaging my own happiness.

When I found out about the Skype being downloaded the day after BD, I assumed ... well let me take that back. When I heard W say she was in a meeting on BD day, she mentioned it was with the female friend who was with the client and also her boss’s boss, who is a guy. Her boss, who is a female, had went out of town that week and this was supposed to be the trip she was going to go on. So the day she went on this last minute meeting, her text logs didn’t show this guy’s texts. I’m assuming OM could be someone in her building at work like her boss’s boss. The day of BD when I went to pick up the kids she texted a different number saying it’s over. This is to someone else other than the guy who has been texting her at work. She said this was to a female friend, an older lady, the person she supposedly confided in the day of BD. There have been times when I wanted to call that number from her phone to see if a guy picks up. It crossed my mind today and I bounce the idea around thinking what good will it do me. Going back to the Skype ... I assume now that it could be a situation where it’s someone in a higher position like her boss’s boss. She had made several comments in the past about him that seemed off, like all management there help to groom and promote,I’ve met some of them in the past, the older guys. Her boss has taken her under her wing and is looking out for her, but when W refers to this guy, she downplays things like oh he doesn’t care. He’s the type that will let you walk to your car alone when the older guys will walk you.

My mind has thoughts of everything, one person, multiple people, her living out this fantasy between windows of time at work... she’s got a couple of family members, one who sits right in front of her, at work and she has also recently gotten an older brother to work there too. So not only am I dealing with her deception but I am feeling like there’s some betrayal from her family as well.... the sister in law was the one who said in my original post she didn’t know where my W was and said she put her phone on silent. Very, very suspicious. I have to accept that this line of thinking is very destructive. So what if alll of it is true. How strong am I is the question. How much do I want the other person happy, both of us happy and what will that require? Above that, how far or what lengths will I go to make my kids happy?

I saved copies of the texts from that day, a copy of the number she texted that day, also a snapshot of her downloading Skype the day after and am only doing this because I will be seeking legal advice soon. I am getting a list of local attorneys who might be able to speak to me during the weekend, my schedule is tough to work around on weekdays so it feels limiting. Other than that, I have no interest to hire a PI but that may be the only way I get concrete evidence,but if I did, what good would that do me besides making myself feel worse. Does being right about something mean it will feel good?

Today, I got rdy to meet my siblings for lunch,went out for that while W went to her family stuff with the kids. A brother had passed on Thanksgiving so that side of the family usually has something going on to commemorate him every year. I told her I wasn’t going this year when she asked. I may have been crass in the reason since they’re a different religion than I am and it was Sunday mass.

This Christmas I don’t know how to handle being with her side of the family because her dad passed away on Christmas Day. Is this really the time to go ba11$ to the wall and distancing myself from her and her family? I can tell her we can do Christmas for the kids but I don’t feel like this will be the right time to be with her side of the family considering we are separated. Your thoughts?

Going back to last night, after we left the birthday party my son saw Christmas lights up and asked how early could we put them up. He and W got excited and got to talking about putting them up early. She asked me. I said what do you mean, she said come on, he seems to want to put them up for Christmas and we can’t break Christmas tradition. I was kind of cold saying, look at our situation right now, we kind of are breaking tradition. You may want to consider starting to put them up. She got quiet... but later that’s when her work boyfriend texted her about some issue she had to call in from my prior paragraph.

I’m all over the place....so back to today, after I had lunch with the familia, I sat in the car while it was raining reading DR. Had jumped to the infidelity section from one of the other chapters. Was able to read that for a while. Went shopping, then went back to the car, drove around to kill time and parked at a park to read more in the rain. Overall a nice day. Came home, hugged the little one, talked to W a little bit and she’s casually reading another smut book in the living room, even took her iPad to read and eat with the kids. I almost have the nerve to say not around the kids. Is this a crazy boundary saying if she reads those books around them I would have to ask her to leave the room or remove the kids from her presence?

First glance it wasn’t an issue but when I think about our sitch, it’s kinda gross... she will then ask for reasons if I confront her on why I am drawing this line. Will I need to lay down the framework and explain everything to her? She’s going to say she is not doing anything. To refute that and substantiate the reason for my boundary, I may have to show my half empty hand, discuss her behaviors and let her know of the Skype and her attempts at deception and that while I don’t know who it is, I know what’s going on and reading these types of books in front of the kids is inappropriate and they shouldn’t be around when these books feed into this fantasy of her affair.

Pick another battle? The kids don’t know anything... it’s just that I do, and it’s not like this is the worst of what’s going on, it’s her deception. I feel like I am trying to do something just to do something. After putting it out here, typing it out, I feel better. I can now go and have dinner with the family. Woooosah.

Be the rock, be respectful, distance myself as much as possible, expect nothing.

[Adam04]

For Thanksgiving we're having a small get together at my house with her mom and sisters and sister fiancé who know we separated except the mom. I don't know how I want to handle this... if something comes up and I go to the room and not engage in this family time I may get called out on it and the thought has crossed my mind to say but we're separated because of your infidelity.

Friday, her brother is having thanksgiving at his house for all their side of the family, cousins etc. thinking about politely telling her I am going to skip that. Trying to work out how I should be with that conversation.

Someone check me pls. I don't want to be a butt at my place and at the same time don't want to be fake about anything. I want to hold it all in, speak to a lawyer, find out what my best option is, hang in there until we separate and then deal with the physical separation. I want to show myself I can change to be a better person and not be petty and be vindictive. I can't wait for that stuffing...