Finding the Balance and then Tipping the Scale

[lost8]

No sense in airing the dirty laundry in front of the family. Oh I busted that week one after BD and have been paying for it ever since. I feel bad but not really because I was accused by her family of breaking us up and I did what I had to.

But I would not recommend it unless you are ready to dig out of the hole for a while. And she might not get over it.

[DejaVu6]

It seems to me that you are still basing your decisions on what you think her reactions will be to what you do. If you want to eat stuffing and you think you can handle it (i.e. go with no expectations), then do it. Otherwise don't. I KNOW how difficult it is to do but you just have to give it your best effort and step back from making reactive decisions based on your emotions. Also...I would not out her to anyone...especially if you are hoping for reconciliation one day. It also makes you the problem and puts you in between her and her conscience. Just my opinion...for what it is worth.

[Adam04]

Thank you Lost and DejaVu for the support, it's what I need to hear and what my conscience has been telling me but there is that other side I have to control. It felt good to type it out to let that part go. I hope to one day reconcile whatever that looks like. Taking it day by day working with my current emotions. Have to release the negative vibes and not hold them in or direct them to her. Thanks again

[sandi2]

So what if alll of it is true. How strong am I is the question.

Can you paint a picture for me, in what type of actions would show your strength?

How much do I want the other person happy, both of us happy and what will that require?

The other person? Are you referring to the OM? Why should you care if he's happy or not?

Above that, how far or what lengths will I go to make my kids happy?

Perhaps I am not understanding you here. You can't make another person happy. We are all responsible for our own happiness. As for as to what lengths you would go to make your kids happy, you may need to rethink it. Living a life of integrity and teaching those values to your children; giving them as much stability and safe environment as possible; and showing them they are loved...…….these are the things parents need to do.

What is your plan of action going forward?

I have no interest to hire a PI but that may be the only way I get concrete evidence,but if I did, what good would that do me besides making myself feel worse. Does being right about something mean it will feel good?

Not necessarily. Look, life isn't always about how something feels. You either live honestly by certain standards and values, or you don't. If you don't know what those standards and values are...….then you'll likely live by emotions, which can be very fickle. If finding out the truth makes no difference in your plan of action, then hiring a PI makes no sense. If it's a deal breaker for your W to have an affair, then you may want to consider it. I'm not saying what you need to do, b/c that's up to you.

This Christmas I don’t know how to handle being with her side of the family because her dad passed away on Christmas Day. Is this really the time to go ba11$ to the wall and distancing myself from her and her family?

Well first of all, I don't suggest you wait until Christmas Day to demonstrate you've grown some b@lls (if that's what you are saying in this quote). What I see is someone who is finding excuses. What does her father's passing have to do with your separation and your plans for Christmas Day? You can send a poinsettia with a sweet card to her mother that says you are thinking of the family.

She asked me. I said what do you mean, she said come on, he seems to want to put them up for Christmas and we can’t break Christmas tradition. I was kind of cold saying, look at our situation right now, we kind of are breaking tradition. You may want to consider starting to put them up. She got quiet... but later that’s when her work boyfriend texted her about some issue she had to call in from my prior paragraph.

Like many guys who have NGS, you seem to have trouble knowing how to stay balanced in some of these issues. What you said to your W was okay, in making a point that things will not be normalized. You just have to be careful that you don't rob the kids of all their Christmas joy, when it's your W that you are wanting to feel the affects of her actions. Make sense? Yes, it's very difficult to go through the holidays in this type of situation. But guess what? After Christmas comes another holiday, then another, and another.

Is this a crazy boundary saying if she reads those books around them I would have to ask her to leave the room or remove the kids from her presence?

Although I get it, I just don't think it is one you can enforce. I don't know what the kids actually see, but it sounds more like this is an irritation to you and you want to make it a boundary. I don't think it will work. I mean, so you ask her to leave, and she says "No"...….then what? You going to fight with the kids to keep them removed from her presence while she reads a book? How long do you think that would last?

First glance it wasn’t an issue but when I think about our sitch, it’s kinda gross... she will then ask for reasons if I confront her on why I am drawing this line. Will I need to lay down the framework and explain everything to her? She’s going to say she is not doing anything. To refute that and substantiate the reason for my boundary, I may have to show my half empty hand, discuss her behaviors and let her know of the Skype and her attempts at deception and that while I don’t know who it is, I know what’s going on and reading these types of books in front of the kids is inappropriate and they shouldn’t be around when these books feed into this fantasy of her affair.

So bottom line is it's the affair that is eating at you. I don't think you understand boundaries well enough yet. Maybe you need to read the thread on boundaries again. The purpose is not to control what she does. And the way I see it, you are using the kids as your excuse to "draw the line" about the books she reads. It will lead to an argument that you won't win. Setting and enforcing boundaries have nothing to do with confronting, reasoning, explaining, discussing, or arguing. Boundaries are not battles.

[Adam04]

Sandi, as always, I appreciate your responses. You're helping me navigate through my emotions on this roller coaster ride. Sometimes I would like to think I am in control of myself, that I am this great guy who has a handle on things when in truth, its a little scary that I don't. There are times when I know better, but I still feel a certain way and instead of balling it up inside, I come here to release, to let go. I'm learning to put it here and listen as you give advice and criticism to help prevent further mistakes in the future. I'm a work in progress when it comes to not being a repeat offender.

Can you paint a picture for me, in what type of actions would show your strength?

I'll try... You're question was in response to

I have to accept that this line of thinking is very destructive. So what if alll of it is true. How strong am I is the question.

I was saying that it's easy to get caught up in all the mess wondering who it is, how many, who all knew, that sort of thing, all the details.

How Strong am I and what does that mean? To Me, being strong is like being the rock, the lighthouse, someone with the fortitude to endure, someone who can forgive and accept.

Being strong in a time like this to me means being smart about it, being patient, being forgiving, and being accepting.

By being smart, I mean learning, learn the techniques, learn when to bite my tongue, when I should set boundaries and protect myself, also learning about myself and her, the WW...I'm on this journey to discover who this new me is; I've never been tested like this so I am not really sure what I will or will not do, I'd like to say I think I have an idea of who I am as a person. Actions are reading, coming here, communicating, being vulnerable, open, honest and be willing to listen and take advice. knowing when to implement the right actions at the right time. I need to also learn what got me here in the first place and work to better myself. I need to control my anger, play it smart, cool. There is a lot of discovery to be had.

By being patient, I need to learn how to refrain from being triggered/emotional and responding or reacting in an irrational way. I need to allow time to take its course, not push, not expect something for my efforts, I need to not let emotion cloud my judgement or logical thinking. I shouldn't let this affect my health, my work, my relationships with other people like my kids. I need to allow her to make her mistakes and be accountable for them. I need to detach and GAL. I need to allow myself and her to go on this journey and make our mistakes. Learn from it and keep going.

I want to forgive her, I want to love her unconditionally, to not control her. I don't want to play the blame game with her. I need to understand this is a process and not a band aid. I should know forgiveness is letting go, it doesn't change who she is. I can't change who she is.

I need to accept that I can not change her, only myself. I need to accept that no matter what I do or however long it takes, there is no guarantee she will come back to me. Being strong is being okay with this.

The other person? Are you referring to the OM? Why should you care if he's happy or not?

Was referring to W. I feel a certain way about predators/OM. I want W happy so why not throw in the towel and give her what she wants. When I say that, I'm going off emotion again.

What is your plan of action going forward?

Good question, read about making a list of action items with the kids for every time I spent doing something with them. Making sure to stay positive, being around, helping with homework, bathing, tucking in. Waking up, helping get rdy for school, playing games, spending quality time together, teaching, getting food or cooking, watching tv together, reading together, play basketball, not yelling, no arguing, maintaining structure and being a loving parent setting aside our situation and not exposing them to it. communicating, taking the time to talk to them, ask them questions. Listen. When my little one isn't feeling good, he comes to me, I hold him and ask what's wrong. He's always been able to tell me and we talk it out and he eventually feels better. Trying not to stray from what we've been doing before. When W and I talk about the kids, we are on same page. We have same values.

When W and I talk about other things, our values have shifted.

If finding out the truth makes no difference in your plan of action, then hiring a PI makes no sense

Yup, my plan is to use this 7 months to 180, work on me physically and emotionally. I want to take opportunities by living together to shut down the disrespect. I also want to show W how upbeat and outgoing I am by actually being upbeat and outgoing. I want to care less if she is with someone else, I want to detach successfully. I am doing as much LRT as I can. Going out when she's home, working out late. Giving her space, not following her or texting.

Well first of all, I don't suggest you wait until Christmas Day to demonstrate you've grown some b@lls (if that's what you are saying in this quote). What I see is someone who is finding excuses

lol, sorry that's not what it means, just means going all out. I've been distancing myself from her and calling off going with her to her family's for dinner, not replying back to statements via texts, haven't gone with her to a bday party on her side and didn't go to mass for her deceased brother or the family gathering afterwards. This Friday for Thanksgiving I plan to not go to dinner on her family's side.

I come home, help with the kids, and once they're good for bed, I get to the MBR and lock the door.

I'm inclined this Thanksgiving to eat with the family and my kids and once done, I might go visit a brother of mine in town. She can stay with her mom and sisters at the house.

For Christmas I should have added that they will have mass and go to visit the burial site and have a get together for the family. I don't plan to go to any of that. Only thing I plan to do is see what to get for the kids and if we are having lunch at our place. getting flowers for the mom would be going overboard.

Like many guys who have NGS, you seem to have trouble knowing how to stay balanced in some of these issues.

but it sounds more like this is an irritation to you and you want to make it a boundary.

So bottom line is it's the affair that is eating at you. I don't think you understand boundaries well enough yet. Maybe you need to read the thread on boundaries again. The purpose is not to control what she does

Yes, I do have problems and I hope you can help me point them out and resolve them. You are very right that I was irritated about the affair. Was ranting... I'm not afraid to keep putting everything out there so the earlier the better in helping me with the advice and your insight. There will be times when I'm posting how I feel but I know it goes against conventional wisdom. I don't mind being called out on it. Then there will be times my mind is in a haze.



After I ranted about the boundaries I typed this. I know its not about controlling her, its protecting my feelings, but it doesn't stop me from thinking those crazy thoughts or having those crazy feelings.

I feel like I am trying to do something just to do something. After putting it out here, typing it out, I feel better.

[sandi2]

There are times when I know better, but I still feel a certain way and instead of balling it up inside, I come here to release, to let go. I'm learning to put it here and listen as you give advice and criticism to help prevent further mistakes in the future. I'm a work in progress when it comes to not being a repeat offender.

That's exactly what we want you to do. I'm glad you have this attitude.

I appreciate you taking the time for a more detailed explanation of your idea of what being strong means. You were able to share how you think and how you view your position.

I want to forgive her, I want to love her unconditionally, to not control her. I don't want to play the blame game with her. I need to understand this is a process and not a band aid. I should know forgiveness is letting go, it doesn't change who she is. I can't change who she is.

I just want to share some thoughts about this. Forgiveness is a must in any MR, however, it should not be a pass for her to continue doing it. Spouses become lazy and start taking each other for granted, and this is just one of the areas. They get careless how they treat the other spouse, b/c they feel certain they will be overlooked/forgiven. Forgiveness is letting go of the offense and moving forward. It is not giving permission to do it again. It is not approval.

I suppose everyone has an opinion about unconditional love. The nearest thing I think we experience it, is loving our children. I don't know if two spouses are capable of unconditionally loving each other......b/c that is a different type of love, than the love for our kids. To me, it sounds like we're saying there is absolutely nothing they can do that would stop us from loving them. They can do whatever they want to us, or be the worst person on earth, and we'll still love them. Maybe in a general sense, or as some call it.....Christian love, b/c you don't want to see their soul go to hell. But that love between a man and wife and how their actions affect the relationship? Like I said, I can see it in a parent - child relationship, but it's difficult for me to think about loving a spouse, regardless of what he does. I'm not going to stick around and be abused in the name of "unconditional love". But, that's just me.

You can't control her, I agree. You can't control who she is. However, you don't have to accept her bad treatment. Big difference! Here's the thing, I get a little nervous when I see a nice guy talking about forgiveness, unconditional love, etc. pretty early in the sitch. I want him to feel a little anger. Not violence, but get a little mad about what she's done! I don't want him to think he has to tolerate being mistreated. Okay, so you love her, maybe you'll love her forever...….but you might have to do it from a distance if she doesn't treat you better. Know what I mean? Knowing how to separate and balance some of these issues is so important. I may go too far in the other direction, trying to illustrate a point, but I hope you can figure out what I'm trying to say. Just don't stick your head in the sand and call it something else. ((hugs))

Originally Posted by Sandi2

What is your plan of action going forward?

Good question, read about making a list of action items with the kids for every time I spent doing something with them. Making sure to stay positive, being around, helping with homework, bathing, tucking in. Waking up, helping get rdy for school, playing games, spending quality time together, teaching, getting food or cooking, watching tv together, reading together, play basketball, not yelling, no arguing, maintaining structure and being a loving parent setting aside our situation and not exposing them to it. communicating, taking the time to talk to them, ask them questions. Listen. When my little one isn't feeling good, he comes to me, I hold him and ask what's wrong. He's always been able to tell me and we talk it out and he eventually feels better. Trying not to stray from what we've been doing before. When W and I talk about the kids, we are on same page. We have same values.

Except for the last two sentences, this mostly sounds like a plan of action toward parenting your kids. Maybe I should have been more specific. That's not to say what you've written was a waste of time, b/c reading it every day could help keep you focused on these areas. But now, let me get a little more realistic with you. Maybe you and W use to be on the same page about the kids, and maybe you use to have the same values...…..but if she's cheating, then I dare say some of that is going to be challenged. The reason I say this is b/c she has compromised her value system, and it overflows into all areas of her life. What use to be a definite, has become a maybe for her.

Yup, my plan is to use this 7 months to 180, work on me physically and emotionally. I want to take opportunities by living together to shut down the disrespect. I also want to show W how upbeat and outgoing I am by actually being upbeat and outgoing. I want to care less if she is with someone else, I want to detach successfully. I am doing as much LRT as I can. Going out when she's home, working out late. Giving her space, not following her or texting.

Okay, this is a start in what I meant as a plan of action. Now, let's break this down a little more, okay? First, let me caution of you about the whole "working on you" idea. Making these changes will help improve your life emotionally and physically. It may, or may not, work in saving your MR. I'm just being painfully honest with you. Some men have reported making wonderful self improvements, even the WW would say she noticed...….but it did not change her mind about ending the MR. I just think it takes more, for some WW's (but we will talk about it as we go). Two things are for certain, however. One, you won't lose anything more than you would by not following this plan, and two, you will be so much better prepared to face a new chapter b/c you of the 7 months of training to become the best version of Adam.

[Adam04]

Sandi, thanks for the reply.

Can I be frank? I'm clueless on what a good plan of action to save the MR would look like when dealing with WW. I want the best chance and if that means I need to take more immediate actions, then please tell me. Can we work on a plan? Can you make suggestions as to what actions I can take now in my sitch? Are some of these things to do time sensitive , usually works within a certain timeframe, or under given conditions? I'm starting to hear two schools of thought, firm action, tough love VS an allowing, loving friend. Am I hearing this right? How can I transition more into this role? In hearing myself, it sounds kinda weird for me to ask that... as if I'm asking how can I get my b4ll$ back and how can I become alpha male again. Is this essentially it?

I've been feeling like I'm dodging her and being nice and cordial and that's it(showing her the best upbeat me I can be, then *poof* gone.) I'm reading the rules, giving space, not always initiating greetings or even conversation, using the last resort technique, etc etc... but what more can I do with a WW? How can I say "I want to get a hold of my life when it deals with her" without it sounding too controlling? I hope you get what I'm trying to say... and am I jumping the gun here?

Let me know if there are baby steps I need to take first and how I can best prepare myself. Is it a must that I complete the DR and DB books, maybe read them twice? Complete a few of the exercises? My time has been split from work, home with the kids, exercise, reading stuff here and the books. I have to be careful as well with that. I've been locking MBR door and W today asked why do I lock the doors with this weird look on her face. I don't want her barging in to see what I've been reading. She definitely hears me pecking on the keyboard in the study and has come in to ask me a question before, I think to see what I was doing. Quickly turned to other browser.

I will also say this, to anyone reading: if you sometimes copy and paste like I do, make sure you last copy something that is not a huge wall of important text. Wouldn't want your S hitting paste and seeing anything you saved to clipboard.

Going back to W, I think she feels like I am really cheating on her. I've just been upbeat, really feeling good that some of the weight has been lifted from my shoulders because I don't worry about her all too much. Oh the first 2-3 months were horrible but now even though I don't sleep good all the time, I am in a much better place. Better head space. She kept looking at my phone and seeing if I'm typing to someone on the computer. What's sad is that she will probably use that to justify whatever she is doing. Like okay, we're both now like this, more of a green light.

Sandi, would you share with me what you feel is strength in a time like this. Help rekindle and stoke those flames of purpose, focus, and determination. I'm not scared, I've been passive, not realizing the dangers and damage that can/has cause(d). I want to do what's necessary to make this work.

Can I revisit the conversation with W about not being in an open relationship? Is that fitting or even a good idea ? Besides the self improvement, you got my ear, what is this - more - you speak of? I want ALL of it. I'm willing to try anything and everything whether now or down the road. What from your experience has been the most impactful?

Is it me, is it getting my state of mind right?

I read somewhere in another thread that Newbies oftentimes need to know exactly what to do like as if there is a step by step play book. I think I came across this comment when people were discussing understanding the content in the DR book and once you have a true understanding, then you won't need someone to connect all the dots for you because you'd understand what works in your unique situation, although many sitches are the same.

Am I trying to get W to move out asap so she gets a taste of that independent life she has been wanting? Does it matter who stays or goes or is that dependent on the state laws and best discussed with a lawyer as far as optics goes if we end up in front of a judge? BTW, can we say what state we are in like if we're in California or Texas?

Last week, I stopped by two apartment places to get prices. I probably wont be ready to move into one until a couple more months. Money's going out the door faster than coming in, but if I need to move out and sleep in the car, I would. I don't know if I should show her I'd rather be scraping by than be with her. Don't know how that would look in front of a judge later on down the road when it comes time to talk about the kids (me thinking out loud) I hate this part, I had even been seeing if there were people I could split rent with but that's not feasible with having space for the kids.

I feel like I am trapped, in her trap. I feel like she has this upper hand over me and I hate it. I know what she will do later when it gets close to 7 months. She will ask for me to stay in the house for several selfish reasons. This is when I was going to say no. I cant forget that day when she said she doesn't want the divorce but she needs to see if she can forgive me for not trusting her, for thinking she was cheating. She needs this time to figure it out and work on herself. (Next time if she wants to discuss us or say whatever like this, should I take that opportunity to say I cant live in an open marriage and she would need to go? What if she says no, that I don't know what I am talking about? What if she is persistently saying she hasn't cheated? Is this why I should just ignore these confrontations and work on me?

I am trying to premeditate how our future would play out in 7 months after we sell this house and if it could be to my advantage, but I sense this way of living... IHS, it will have had some type of stale effect when we do separate. Let me know if this is not necessarily the case if I can DB better or in other ways.

And trust me, there is anger. I don't want to show it. If I would have went to that cantina that day, it would have gotten ugly, I am controlling that because of what I did, being destructive, letting it get the best of me. It's there but my 180 is letting it all go, all that anger to be approachable, reasonable, Mr Nice Guy. I read the section of the DR book listing the reasons why W is driven away, I think I checked off each section saying, yep I did that and that. I own up to it but SHE is the one giving up on the family, it's one thing when two people are involved but its something else when she's got the kids involved as well. She wants to think because we don't talk or argue in front of them that it wont affect them. This from the Affair Fog?

I made it easy for the OM to waltz right up to our house.I should have barricaded the door, put guard dogs in the yard, had electric eels in the moat, fenced in the yard with 12 foot barbed wire, but I cleared the path and she opened the door to let him in. Maybe its the worst analogy there is, lol.. but I should have filled her heart full of love and contentment, that it would have been impossible for her to open that door. Instead, she harbored ill feelings, she manipulated, lied, and deceived. Yes there is anger, but it's also checked, trying to at least. I'm also here thinking, even if I didn't fill her life full of happiness, and there were bad days, that still doesn't make it right to do what she is doing. I was going to say it doesn't give her right to do what she is doing, but isn't that controlling? That's my one moment at being "deep".

I contemplate the future. In my current state of not knowing, not knowing how bad it is, who it is, I feel there is no way for me to check or gauge things. It'd have to be by feeling. What if she puts on a good act of being remorseful and only tells me some of whatever happened. I guess I wont really know. I wonder if I'd ever really know and should this be a concern for me to think about at this stage of the game? is it too early to worry about that or should I look at that and maybe revisit that idea of the PI? I don't know... just talking out loud again. I don't think my focus needs to be on this yet.

Oh one thing, in the event phone texts are needed for some reason if there needs to be proof of infidelity for custody rights or w/e, I read somewhere that for some carriers you need to be on the account to get those text records. We both currently are on the same phone plan. I read somewhere else that it would be a good idea when we separate for one of us to drop the plan and get on a new one. Anyone know much about this? I don't want to be shooting myself in the foot for not knowing or planning ahead of time.

W has since turned to skype so any proof of A talk via texts to use will be pushed back for about a year in the 7 months to come. Not sure how long phone companies keep record, but should I contact a lawyer and discuss this with him/her? It feels like a lot of nothing for nothing but I have no idea how bad these D can end up and how much I should protect myself especially when it comes to the kids. I feel low for thinking like this...


As for unconditional love goes, I read that too about the love of family being more like unconditional love. Short story on that and limerence: As kids, I would go over to her house with her brother and eat with them. Their whole family slurps. I didn't know her at the time. I grew up with "some" table manners where you don't slurp, don't pick your face, don't put your elbows on the table etc... so when I met her, I had to get accustomed to everyone, even her sister, slurping. As the years grew, guess what happened? I started to slurp... and it was okay at first...we had a good limerence run for over a decade. We never really let our differences bother us, we would joke and say "you met me this way", then we'd laugh. Only until most recently within this last year when everything started to change, we would be at the same dinner table with her brother and sister slurping and if I slurped, she would say it was gross. She stopped slurping as well... I should have known then that something was up. So in this case, because she has this unconditional love for her family, she is more accepting of the same things from them than if it were from me.

(I thought I wasn't going to type as much tonight, lol... felt good though. Thank you everyone for your support and time you take in reading and responding. means so much)

I think when she gets home with the kids from her brother's I'm going to be in the kitchen sipping water, sipsipsipsippp. j/k

[burned]

I like how you think and write, so I’m goong to pay more attention to your sitch. BTW to have Sandi on your team this early in the game, and dropping some seriously good advice that we are all learning from...consider yourself lucky.
My only general advice at this point is to focus on detachment. You seem to be doing the same thing I do, which is overthinking. Nothing wrong with collecting information, but make sure at some point that you act on it.

Can I be frank? I'm clueless on what a good plan of action to save the MR would look like when dealing with WW. I want the best chance and if that means I need to take more immediate actions, then please tell me. Can we work on a plan? Can you make suggestions as to what actions I can take now in my sitch?

Here I’d say...GAL, 180s, detachment. :P
No, but seriously. That’s your best shot. We’re dying to find that “silver bullet” and it just doesn’t exist. That, for me, is almost harder to accept than the fact that W left.
So an action plan is a good idea, but keep in mind that the actions will be pointed at you, not her. Whether this affects her is secondary. That’s why it’s counterintuitive.

I will also say this, to anyone reading: if you sometimes copy and paste like I do, make sure you last copy something that is not a huge wall of important text. Wouldn't want your S hitting paste and seeing anything you saved to clipboard.

Really good advice, something people probably wouldn’t think of. Pass it on.

Going back to W, I think she feels like I am really cheating on her.

So be it. That could work in your favor. Be mysterious. If someone else wants you, it means you’re desirable, and she will want to get you. Look at how many of us here were in a sort of ho-hum mood, you know, this M is fine, good enough for me. Then you find out they’re cheating, and you want to be all over them all the time, as much sex as possible, doting, etc. Maybe that’s just me. But, that should be what you want her to feel about you. Not manipulating of course, and not actually cheating! Just let the thought percolate in her mind.

Am I trying to get W to move out asap so she gets a taste of that independent life she has been wanting?

You want this to happen, but you don’t want to try to make it happen. If it happens, good. If you make it happen, that’s pursuit and control. Don’t make it happen, but also don’t make it easy for it to not happen. Does that make sense?

In my current state of not knowing, not knowing how bad it is, who it is, I feel there is no way for me to check or gauge things. It'd have to be by feeling. What if she puts on a good act of being remorseful and only tells me some of whatever happened. I guess I wont really know. I wonder if I'd ever really know and should this be a concern for me to think about at this stage of the game? is it too early to worry about that or should I look at that and maybe revisit that idea of the PI? I don't know... just talking out loud again. I don't think my focus needs to be on this yet.

The not knowing is bad. But once you know, you can’t erase it. And then your imagination starts to run wild when you can’t sleep. As for putting on a good act and only telling part of the story, there are two cliches that come to mind: cheaters lie, and believe nothing they say. *slurps coffee*

[sandi2]

Can I be frank? I'm clueless on what a good plan of action to save the MR would look like when dealing with WW. I want the best chance and if that means I need to take more immediate actions, then please tell me. Can we work on a plan? Can you make suggestions as to what actions I can take now in my sitch?

I will be happy to help however I can. I have spent most of my spare time over the past eleven years studying about MR's that have a wayward W. That's certainly not to say I know all the answers, b/c I don't. Plus, I want you to remember that this is your life, and you are the one who will live it.

I'm starting to hear two schools of thought, firm action, tough love VS an allowing, loving friend.

MWD does not use the term "wayward wife" in her books. She doesn't distinguish the wayward from the WAW. IMHO, the wayward W requires a tougher love than a W that walked away from an abusive H (for an example). I have NEVER seen a case where the H successfully saved his M with a WW by being "soft". If you don't know what I mean by "soft", let me know and I'll explain.

The biggest thing I disagree with is being friends with the wayward W. The WW does not have the same goals or desires as her H. So that puts them at odds from the beginning of their "friendship", instead of marriage-ship. I think nearly every WW makes the statement to her H (as she's dropping the bomb on his head) that she wants to remain best friends. Well, it's all been changed. The H is headed for a big trap with no way out if he agrees to be her BFF while she is wayward........b/c of the WW's disrespectful and selfish mindset. If she doesn't want to be M to him, why would he choose to be friends with someone who lies, betrays and deceives him? If he doesn't respect himself any more than that...….no wonder she doesn't respect him. Another reason it won't work is b/c they each have a completely different view point of the definition of that so-called friendship. The H, who wants to ultimately save his M, is hoping the friendship will work in drawing them closer together. However, it doesn't work b/c the WW abuses it. She wants to pull out the friendship card whenever she has a job she wants him to do for her, or whenever she's lonely and wants to hang out (if she has no other options), or when she's having a pity party and wants him to comfort her. She will take advantage every chance she gets, and if he tries to pull back......she starts screaming, "YOU SAID WE WOULD BE FRIENDS!" She expects him to be her friend, but she is too self centered and cold to be his friend. As usual, she thinks everything is all about her. Here's the thing, she has no intentions of the friend relationship ever becoming more than a way for him to serve her in some capacity. In my opinion, any number of people can hold the position of being her "friend", but there is only one person in this entire world who can hold the position of her husband. I think there is way too much talk about being friends with one's spouse. That should be a relationship incomparable to anything else.

The WW has lost respect for her H as a man, and that loss of respect killed the attraction. (BTW, how's the sex life?) A woman is designed where she has to respect her H as a man (and as the head of their family) before she can feel desire for him, the way a W should desire her H. If time goes by and that respect continues slipping away, then she's not going to feel in love with him. That's why I am always telling you guys that every thing you do from this point forward, has to be seen through the lens of respect. A lot of H's are too concerned about doing loving actions for his WW. For some reason, he seems to think he is suppose to prove to his WW how much he loves her. For now, forget about doing things to prove your love. It's time to prove your manhood. That's where she is really challenging you! If you start doing things to show her how much you love her...…..she will feel utter disgust for you, b/c nobody knows better than she......just how cold her heart has become, and her hard heart will not be persuaded by showering her with what you may translate as proof of your love. Oh, she's tricky. Very tricky! She'll twist everything around and talk about how she doesn't know if she can trust you, etc. And some poor shmuck will buy into that cr@p the WW says. Don't let her talk as if you were the one who broke wedding vows.
And, don't be that guy that jumps through hoops of fire trying to convince a WW that you are worthy of her. I can't tell you how big of a mistake that is......and unfortunately, nice guys are doing it every day.

For the next seven months, your approach or how you see this MR needs to change. When you have a WW, you can't use methods that a lot of books recommend, b/c the WW is a different animal. You can't even use whatever methods you might have used in the past. This is more serious than just trying to improve a relationship. If you want things to change, and for good, it will probably require you doing a few things that may feel a little uncomfortable. We won't cross that bridge tonight, but just know if you intend to really change how she treats you and how she acts in the MR......it will be challenging. You can't continue doing what doesn't work in a relationship.

So........the WW should see her H conducting himself as a manly man. By that, I don't mean to imply he has to impersonate a lumberjack, but if it's necessary to do some research on what women find as attractive, manly traits...…….then get on line and do it. Also, evaluate your body language. (Remind me to talk more about this after Thanksgiving. I'm a little short on time today.) Same goes for your voice and how you speak to your WW, and especially how you sound if you are responding back to her.

Are you a take charge kind of guy? I can almost hear you saying, "When I need to be". Are you decisive or passive? FWIW, women like the opportunity to make a few decisions once in a while, but we hate passivity in men. We admire men who are confident and assertive, so work on illustrating those traits. Do you have a favorite dramatic actor? If so, study his moves and body language, especially around a woman.

If your WW has become somewhat of a bully, then she has to see that you are not afraid to stand up to her when she shows some form of disrespect toward you. In the beginning, you may secretly feel a little afraid, but do it anyway. This is where the body language will help you. Part of your time spent away from the house, can be put toward research on this subject, and how a man stands up to horsey female. I'm just hitting a few highlights right now, but we can talk more about it later.

Instead of trying to come up with a list of things to do to show her how much you love her, start training yourself during these 7 months to be a man that illustrates how he lives by what he believes is the right thing (based on his values, standards, religious belief system, etc.) He shows that he is a man of integrity, and he does not compromise his integrity to appease her, or anyone else. A man needs to know what he stands on, and why. He also needs to know where he draws the line and says enough is enough. She may not like something you do. In fact, it may make her furious the first few times you stand up to her, but inside her soul......she will think more of you as a man. She's going to test you, but that's just part of being a woman.

As I said, I've been studying this for a little over 11 years, and one of the main things I've observed IRL and on the board, is most of the H's who have these wayward W's...…..are men who have NGS (Nice Guy Syndrome), Not all are to the same degree, of course, but he has it. The more extreme his NGS.....the worst his W's waywardness seems to be. Why? B/c the root of waywardness is a lack of respect. The H who is loaded with NGS is going to want to follow his need to be liked, accepted, and approved by her. His nice-guy is going to want to avoid potential conflict and "keep the peace". I apologize if I am repeating something I've already written on your thread. If you have not read the no more mr. nice guy book, I can't tell you enough just how important it is to your MR......and the rest of your life.....than for you to understand the NGS.

You may see yourself as a good man, who tries to live peacefully. Perhaps you think you are very patient b/c you hold your tongue, instead of saying what you'd really like to say. Maybe you are kind, considerate, and can be very tender toward the feelings of others. Guess what? You can be all these things and not have NGS. On the other hand, you may see yourself this way.....but have NGS. So, please read the book carefully.

Are some of these things to do time sensitive , usually works within a certain timeframe, or under given conditions? I'm starting to hear two schools of thought, firm action, tough love VS an allowing, loving friend. Am I hearing this right? How can I transition more into this role? In hearing myself, it sounds kinda weird for me to ask that... as if I'm asking how can I get my b4ll$ back and how can I become alpha male again. Is this essentially it?

Well I know I am telling you to do a lot of reading, but you can actually google how to become alpha male; how to get your b@lls back from your domineering W; and how to show your W male dominance.

I've been feeling like I'm dodging her and being nice and cordial and that's it(showing her the best upbeat me I can be, then *poof* gone.) I'm reading the rules, giving space, not always initiating greetings or even conversation, using the last resort technique, etc etc... but what more can I do with a WW? How can I say "I want to get a hold of my life when it deals with her" without it sounding too controlling? I hope you get what I'm trying to say... and am I jumping the gun here?

That's why I am telling you to read about certain subjects, so that you put this time to good use, and it will give you that reference point.

It's not enough to just lock the MBR. You must conceal the material you are reading from your W. These are tools just for you. At the moment, I don't think you have to read DB and DR, twice. DR is updated version of DB. Becoming more familiar with the mindset of the WW, is where I suggest your start.

Links to this series of threads

First thread(this thread)
For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554&page=1

Second thread
For the Newcomer LBH who has a wayward wife Part 2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2548490#Post2548490

Third thread
For the LBH who has a WW Part 3
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551039#Post2551039

4th thread
Guide for LBH who has a Wayward Wife
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551811#Post2551811

5th thread
Help for LBH who has a WW (new thread)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2593214#Post2593214

6th thread
Sandi's reflections
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2653323#Post2653323

These are threads where I posted information about wayward wives. How it starts, what it is, what the H should do, etc. I hope it doesn't sound arrogant for me to tell you that you don't have to read all the responses to my posts in these threads. But, if you have the time.....then sure.

Sandi, would you share with me what you feel is strength in a time like this. Help rekindle and stoke those flames of purpose, focus, and determination. I'm not scared, I've been passive, not realizing the dangers and damage that can/has cause(d). I want to do what's necessary to make this work.

I think you find it within those threads I posted, but if not, let me know and I'll be glad to share.

Wow, this post has become way longer than I intended, so let me continue in the next one.

[sandi2]

Okay, so continuing from my previous post...……..

Going back to W, I think she feels like I am really cheating on her.

She will get very curious, and I think she'll break into your computer, so be sure you delete the history. You don't have to convince her you aren't cheating. She just sees you acting differently. When you start kicking GAL into next gear, then she'll really wonder what's going on with you. It's part of being mysterious. I'm not suggesting you pretend you are seeing someone. I'm saying that it would not be a bad thing if she became interested in you as a man again.

She kept looking at my phone and seeing if I'm typing to someone on the computer.

Does she let you look at her phone?

What's sad is that she will probably use that to justify whatever she is doing. Like okay, we're both now like this, more of a green light.

This type of thinking is wasted energy. It distracts you from focusing on the things you can control.

I read somewhere in another thread that Newbies oftentimes need to know exactly what to do like as if there is a step by step play book. I think I came across this comment when people were discussing understanding the content in the DR book and once you have a true understanding, then you won't need someone to connect all the dots for you because you'd understand what works in your unique situation, although many sitches are the same.

We can talk until we turn blue and some newbies never get it. I think the "understanding" comes to people in different ways and different time frames. Something finally clicks in their head. Like, when a H is breaking his fool neck to win favor with his adulterous W, hoping she'll pick him instead of her lover. I'll be honest, there have been times I have about lost it with some guys, b/c I'm thinking, "Are you kidding me!" The worse she treats him, the harder he works to hang on to her. What's attractive about that? If he would dump her and move on...…….. CLICK! But I can't make it click for him. I've seen some guys live an in-house separation (which is no separation at all), and be miserable for years. They are doing everything, while the WW plays around and throws garbage at him. Then finally, one day he wakes up and asks himself WTF is he doing? What is he teaching his kids about being a man? (Okay, so that last part was mostly my input.)

I just want you to know that there are some who do get it. I've seen some guys who were "nice-guys" through and through, make a huge turnaround and grow b@lls of steel. They let the WW go. Some walked away. Guess what? The WW went running after those guys, begging him to not to go......and she was willing to do whatever it took to save their M. But it took tough love, and I'm telling you that I have not seen success stories where it didn't take tough love with a wayward.

Am I trying to get W to move out asap so she gets a taste of that independent life she has been wanting? Does it matter who stays or goes or is that dependent on the state laws and best discussed with a lawyer as far as optics goes if we end up in front of a judge?

Always get your lawyer's legal advice.

The sooner the WW experiences consequences of her actions/decisions, the better. WW's are like rebellious teenagers, and they have to learn consequences just like teenagers. Some of the problems we see today, come from parents not giving their spoiled kids consequences. Some WW's have been so spoiled, and they may have parents or a H, or someone else who enables their lifestyle. You may not be able to do anything about other enablers, but you can control what you do. In the WW threads, I gave a few examples of consequences the H can enforce. Sometimes it opens the eyes of the WW, and sometimes it doesn't. If she just gets mad...….then it wasn't tough enough, IMHO. She still holds that self entitlement. But one thing is for sure, no consequences for how she treats her H, will certainly not bring about feelings of remorse. I think it's important that the WW feels remorse for her behavior, and especially for an affair. Yes, the H can become this marvelous, attractive male...….and she would notice his changes. But, this is what I meant by saying it takes "more". He has to be at that place where he is completely done with her self entitlement and the rest of the cr@p he has endured from her. That's the click I hope you'll get. You stop putting up with her cr@p! I think that's how I'm going to start addressing newbies, by asking them, "Are you ready to stop putting up with her cr@p?"

I feel like I am trapped, in her trap.

You know why? B/c you've played by her rules.

I feel like she has this upper hand over me and I hate it. I know what she will do later when it gets close to 7 months. She will ask for me to stay in the house for several selfish reasons.

Every thing she does is for selfish reasons. That is what motivates the wayward W. Have you told her you are staying for seven months?

This is when I was going to say no.

So, you already know what she's gong to say, and you are going to wait for seven months to tell her no? Help me understand this. I know you love her, but you have to respect yourself more than this.

I cant forget that day when she said she doesn't want the divorce but she needs to see if she can forgive me for not trusting her, for thinking she was cheating.

Remember what I said about how she'll twist things? Prime example.

She needs this time to figure it out and work on herself.

It's all a load of WW cr@p!

(Next time if she wants to discuss us or say whatever like this, should I take that opportunity to say I cant live in an open marriage and she would need to go? What if she says no, that I don't know what I am talking about? What if she is persistently saying she hasn't cheated? Is this why I should just ignore these confrontations and work on me?

Oh, she's going to deny it! Bank on it.


Look, I've got to stop here. There's just too much to answer in a couple of posts......as wordy as I get. I will get back as soon as I get a chance. Okay? I have company coming tomorrow!

P.S. Sorry if some of this doesn't make sense. I shouldn't have tried to undertake so much when I was pushed for time.