Surrendering to grace...

[ovrrnbw]

Sounds like a productive therapy session. I'd focus on what Steve said. The LBS has their own fog to deal with and it is important to understand and deal with that properly.

You are smart and you can reach a solid conclusion here, Paco.

[paco123]

Thanks, K. First, it's strange that we sometimes feel apologetic about talking about spiritual things. Myself, I don't accept orthodoxy as literal truth. I view religious beliefs as metaphors for humanity's wisdom passed through the ages. For me, religious practices reinforce this wisdom, which in turn modulates the emotional roller-coaster I am on during these trying times.

I too drifted from the faith that had meant so much to me. I have rediscovered this faith and I am never letting go again, regardless of this particular journey's outcome.

An integral part of my M is that this shared faith was what first drew W and I together. Similarly, I think part of our independent journeys, now that we are separated, is that each of us is trying to live more spiritually driven lives of integrity and wholeness.

I do not want to delude or manipulate W or myself. Therapist's advice to "let go and let God" is apt. I can hope W's journey brings her back to the tenets of our once-shared faith and its wisdom regarding M's sacramental nature. But her path forward is hers to discern.

I must accept that her path might lead her to a different destination from my desired one. Therapy sessions have been helpful in shining light into the dark areas that impede each of our paths. But once we are aware of these areas, I think each of us still needs courage to walk down the path most consistent with our individual souls. I continue to pray these paths eventually merge.

[paco123]

Many thanks, ovr. Sometimes all I can do is just focus on breathing and centering.

[SteveLW]

paco your quote "I must accept that her path might lead her to a different destination from my desired one. Therapy sessions have been helpful in shining light into the dark areas that impede each of our paths. But once we are aware of these areas, I think each of us still needs courage to walk down the path most consistent with our individual souls. I continue to pray these paths eventually merge."

I believe that shows you still have an unhealthy outlook on this. You talk about accepting her path may be divergent. Then all I see is ours and wes. Too discover true acceptance you need to flip that on its head and focus on mes and Is. Focus on you!

[kiro]

Thanks, K. First, it's strange that we sometimes feel apologetic about talking about spiritual things. Myself, I don't accept orthodoxy as literal truth. I view religious beliefs as metaphors for humanity's wisdom passed through the ages. For me, religious practices reinforce this wisdom, which in turn modulates the emotional roller-coaster I am on during these trying times.

I too drifted from the faith that had meant so much to me. I have rediscovered this faith and I am never letting go again, regardless of this particular journey's outcome.

An integral part of my M is that this shared faith was what first drew W and I together. Similarly, I think part of our independent journeys, now that we are separated, is that each of us is trying to live more spiritually driven lives of integrity and wholeness.

I do not want to delude or manipulate W or myself. Therapist's advice to "let go and let God" is apt. I can hope W's journey brings her back to the tenets of our once-shared faith and its wisdom regarding M's sacramental nature. But her path forward is hers to discern.

I must accept that her path might lead her to a different destination from my desired one. Therapy sessions have been helpful in shining light into the dark areas that impede each of our paths. But once we are aware of these areas, I think each of us still needs courage to walk down the path most consistent with our individual souls. I continue to pray these paths eventually merge.

Wow! Paco, you seem to be in a very good place. Clearly, there is a good understanding between your W and yourself, which is great because one of the hardest thing in my sitch and many others is the lack of communication and understanding.

If you continue down this path, I'm sure you won't have a hard time accepting the outcome without bitterness and keep a good relationship with your W whether you get back together or not.

I think this is an area where I still have more work to do, but my problem is that my STBXW (soon-to-be exWife) has always struggled with communicating her feelings. She never allowed me to understand what she was thinking or feeling, either before BD or since then. I had to do a lot of guessing after the fact and then I decided to stop trying and move on. This makes it difficult to forgive her completely.

I think each of us still needs courage to walk down the path most consistent with our individual souls. I continue to pray these paths eventually merge.

It takes a lot of courage to think that way. I commend you for this.

[paco123]

Actually, your STBXW and my W sound similar in their approach to feelings.

I won't go into the details, but it is emerging that my upbringing was very much about sharing emotions and recognizing the validity of emotions. W's mom is very much an emotional flat-liner. W keeps all the feelings in...she regards my emotions with disapproval...the resentments build...and then one day, W walks away because she is too exhausted to work through the emotions.

Therapist has been very helpful in helping us to identify these deeply-rooted patterns. She encourages us to rise above these old patterns and to face the future with hope and courage.

In other words, we know the problems. We know the solution. Each of us has to lovingly offer compromise. But as all of us in this virtual community know, that is a choice that must be made willingly.

In light of W's claims that she no longer loves me and wants to move on, I feel discouraged and also want to move on.

But the advice from our community is encouraging: patience; marathon, not sprint; behavior, not words. Regarding behavior, she initially wanted a single therapy session to provide closure; we just had our fourth session together. I'll draw hope from wherever I can find it.

[FlySolo]

Paco - I am forever in awe of the depth of your understanding both of yourself and your W but one thing in particular struck me from your last post:

"In light of W's claims that she no longer loves me and wants to move on, I feel discouraged and also want to move on."

Move on my man. You have to let her go. She has said she does not want to stay in the MR (right now) - is therapy not just prolonging both your pain. I can't remember if it was her idea or your idea to go into MC but if it was yours, then the decision to self reflect is being forced on her. Nothing hurts like being forced to look in a mirror you are not ready to look at yet. She will get there. Until she does, every action, every word, every emotion, will only reinforce her view that she does not want to be in the MR. If it was hers, well, it has been said here before, they do it so they can tick the box that says "I tried".

I am not as articulate as others here, so I will try and be simple. Somewhere out there is a woman who shares the depth of your soul and the fierceness of your intelligence. That woman may be your W. Right now it is not.

[kiro]

In other words, we know the problems. We know the solution. Each of us has to lovingly offer compromise. But as all of us in this virtual community know, that is a choice that must be made willingly.

It's gotta be more complicated than that, but maybe it's because you didn't provide details. Honestly, I don't buy this brief simple explanation.

The reason they are not willing to make the choice is because they refuse to deal with their issues. They prefer to run away from their issues and blame us for putting it in their face. We remind them of their inner struggles and pains. We are like a mirror for them. They hope that they can ignore their pains and all the emotional turmoils by staying away from us. And it will work for a while.

I don't believe that they built the resentment because of us. I see that explanation as not taking responsibility for their choices and their inner issues. They built the resentment mostly because of their internal issues and their emotional immaturity.

Part of their inner issues is not understanding the difference between emotions and true love. They are so confused internally and they probably have always been even if they appear stable from the outside. They think that the choice they are making is to separate from us, but in reality it's a choice to run away from any intimate relationship and hoping that their pains will go away.

But because they are in such a rebellious state right now and they have the illusion that they solved their problems, they are usually defensive and will get angry if anyone tries to help them.

Unfortunately, everyone around them will realize that trying to tell them the truth is a lost battle (even the therapists IMHO) and will just push them further away. And so everyone who still cares for them decides to listen and approve what they say. Basically, they are like teenagers who are struggling to grow emotionally. They hurt the closest people to them.

Their emotions need to calm down which will take a long time. Then they will need to tear down the wall that they have built and that is blinding them. Then, they may start seeing their issues and then they'll have a choice to make. Either go through the pain and face their issues or continue running.

It is very complicated. So I decided to also run away from her issues and move on.

My 2 cents!

[kiro]

they do it so they can tick the box that says "I tried".

FlySolo brings up a very good point. My W did this. After BD, I tried everything to make her change her mind and not leave. She stayed for 5 months but during this time, she was not trying to fix anything or to work on the relationship. She constantly refused to go to MC and would say things like "I know I could make it work if wanted, but I don't want to try".

Then several months after she left, she started sending me emails stating exactly what FlySolo wrote: "I tried" but it didn't work.

I'm telling you to move on. I think it's wise to be patient until you are certain you want to move on, but don't get your hopes high because she went to 4 MC sessions. You will know if she really wants to work on the MR. She clearly isn't.

[kiro]

* I meant to say "I'm NOT telling you to move on."