Thanks Ovr for previous post I will reread those old pages tonight.
Quick one here to start a new thread, please read previous last few posts above. Love to hear from you. Going to be journaling here.... not sharing with W.
Hoping to have communication talk tomorrow. Strictly healthy communication talk, no relationship. Its hard she resents me and has a lot of anger. But I know beneath the anger is hurt and beneath the hurt is love. Miss her and D4... working hard on guy friends, meditating each morning, eating well, continuing to make myself more successfull in a business sense, stronger healthier and more consistent in a mental health sense.
No more mr nice guy. If she wont try to communicate I guess its over for now. I will not allow unhealthy relationship / communication. No more texting, she calls me manic then says thats enough when I respond. Only mental health issue Ive ever been diagnosed with is mild depression which I have done a lot of therapy to work on. She projects her anger and pain onto me. I need her to stop doing these things if we continue to talk. I need her wording is important instead of you need to... according to my coach...
Relationships start with communication before they can progress. Thoughts?
Last edited by Did; 11/26/1804:46 PM.
H: 33 W:32 M: 5 T: 8 D: 4 BD: 6/2017 MO: 6/2017 House sold: 6/28/18 W wants to build friendship / relationship- 9/18 Paying $ support since 7/18. Physical Reconnect- 10/18 W Starts- IC / MC - 10/18
Relationships start with communication before they can progress. Thoughts?
Yes, but the problem is, and Did you never did come to grips with this truth, is you HAVE no relationship with her right now. The only links you have between the two of you are: D4 and this voluntary support that you feel the need to continue paying without a court order.
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Hoping to have communication talk tomorrow.
No, do not do this. I can guarantee this is not going to help one bit, and will only hurt your sitch. I've followed your sitch for months and the one thing you've continued to be terrible at is going dark on her. Do it now. Go completely dark. Only time you initiate contact is related to directly to D4 ONLY. Any contact she starts you only respond to things pertaining directly to D4. Anything else you only respond to a direct question, and then in as few words as possible. Her: "Did you get the divorces papers?" You: "Yes." Etc. If she contacts you about anything other than D4, and it isn't a direct question you do not respond.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Its hard she resents me and has a lot of anger. But I know beneath the anger is hurt and beneath the hurt is love.
Sorry to say this but it's likely there is no love underneath it. Just layers of hurt and anger and resentment. This is really hard for LBS's to understand- that the woman that loved them for so long can suddenly has no loving feelings for them anymore, but it is the case. She may fall for you again in the future, but not right now. I mean she may still "love" you like she loves a relative, but she's not "in love" and there is a big difference.
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No more texting, she calls me manic then says thats enough when I respond. Only mental health issue Ive ever been diagnosed with is mild depression which I have done a lot of therapy to work on. She projects her anger and pain onto me. I need her to stop doing these things if we continue to talk.
So is the purpose of this talk to give her some boundaries about this? I'm unclear on what your objectives are, perhaps you could touch on that some more. I'm inclined to say what Steve is saying, that it's a bad idea. But if your purpose is to lay out some boundaries about treatment that you will not allow then that may be OK.
Sorry to say this but it's likely there is no love underneath it. Just layers of hurt and anger and resentment. This is really hard for LBS's to understand- that the woman that loved them for so long can suddenly has no loving feelings for them anymore, but it is the case. She may fall for you again in the future, but not right now. I mean she may still "love" you like she loves a relative, but she's not "in love" and there is a big difference.
THAT ^ is the most painful thing I think I've ever read on here as an LBS. As painful, honest and true as it can get.
Well, truthfully, the WAS hasn't been "in love" with the LBS spouse for a long time. People who are happily married aren't "in love" forever anyways. They may recapture that "in-love" feelings for a few hours, a day, a week, months, etc but life and the challenges of marriage will always be there.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
THAT ^ is the most painful thing I think I've ever read on here as an LBS. As painful, honest and true as it can get.
It is a painful realization to be sure. I think a lot of us come here with the same thought as Did- "But I know beneath the anger is hurt and beneath the hurt is love" which implies that getting through the anger and hurt will reveal the love and put everything back to normal again. The problem is that the love is just not there. So you try peeling back layers of anger and hurt and just find more and more anger and hurt. At some point you realize that every layer you peel just causes the WAS to build 3 more layers around their heart. The gist of DBing isn't to dig down and find the love again. It's to lay the groundwork for a new seed of love to plant, take root, grow and eventually blossom. It may be similar to the previous love, or something completely different. But it's not THE SAME love.
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Well, truthfully, the WAS hasn't been "in love" with the LBS spouse for a long time. People who are happily married aren't "in love" forever anyways. They may recapture that "in-love" feelings for a few hours, a day, a week, months, etc but life and the challenges of marriage will always be there.
This is frequently true, but it doesn't have to be. Retrouvaille taught me that. The coaching couples had been in love, fallen out of love, and fell back in love and found a way to keep the love alive the 2nd time. The key to it could be boiled down to one word- WORK. Most of us get married and go on autopilot after a while. One of us thinks that just persevering is enough. We assume the other thinks the same, but he/ she doesn't and we eventually find that out at BD. THEN we're ready to do the work, but they're not. Anyway whether we recon or go into a new R, I think that's the number one lesson for all of us- do the work. A successful R depends on constant nurturing. If we don't learn that we are destined to be BD'd again.
Couple things. First I agree we are not in a relationship. That being said what does all this make us, dating I suppose? W opened up to me and told me some very personal stuff - future / sexual / mental health, we mutually agreed to date exclusively, she said she loved me multiple times, she cut off other men after we had great sex 4 different days. During these intimate times she brought up a future together. Again the inconsistency. We aren't seeing other people and are in therapy. If that ends Im not opposed to divorce, at this point after 1.5 years enough is enough. Maybe I go black for a month first and keep with my timetable of February to continue to work on this marriage. Shes inconsistent for sure but if there is no love / attraction / respect underneath then what the F am I doing. We still have too much attachment and affect each other too much. Does attachment mean there is something there or just a bunch of unhealthy past traumas still affecting us... I dont have the answers and I think it depends on the sitch maybe some of both.
That being said, if we aren't communicating things aren't going to improve. If we go back to sleeping with other people things arent going to improve. If shes having sex with others and Im not its not going to improve. The distance / pursuit is unhealthy her relationship since BD have been very unhealthy. We've talked about this in therapy at length. Yes if I distance myself she may show interest but that does not make a relationship. If Im healthier and she is not healthier the same problems will repeat. When I pursue that's also unhealthy and that has been my mistake. I have had 3 chances where she has come back and I have responded by being too much like an excited puppy dog.
I have to be strong and go with a tough love approach. If she deserves love and to date me than I try my best. If not I dont have time for her. It needs to be mutual and at a pace we both are comfortable with. This may be slower than I want but the main thing is if we are both doing the work on ourselves and dating I'm fine. If she doesn't do what the therapist recommended and won't do the work I'm out - go black - work to accept divorce.
This is a long separation. My timetable is by Feb we have progress or we divorce that will be 20 months. Therapist recommended a timetable so there it is.
Yes, I want her and our family together, I want to hold my wife and have morning coffee date night great sex D4 daily... But I cant do it by myself, shes as responsible as I am. Either way, I know there is a great life for me ahead and I trust that there is a partner who will want to consistently work on herself and build a healthy relationship with me.
After 2 days of no contact I'm feeling a lot better. I'm still learning how to be mentally healthy on my own after 9 years of a codependent relationship.
As Im writing this she facetimed me, I answered and talked to D4. It seems we are going to talk tomorrow.
Talking points:
First I accept responsibility. I know how much I hurt you, I didnt water the plant that was our marriage and I know you have a lot of resentment and anger. Its not your fault and I understand.
Its up to you if you want to work on those things that lead to the inconsistency and make communication more difficult. I cant control you and I dont want to. I cant tell you how to do your self care. All I can say is what I need if we are seeing each other. I need you to try your best and put effort into what the therapist has recommended. If you choose to follow the therapists recommendations I am willing to do my absolute best to go at your pace, be mindful of your needs and respect your words.
Healthy boundaries and communication - I know communication is hard between us and we have very different issues from our childhood. I can be pushy, negative or critical. I'm aware of that, I'm working on it and try to be mindful. I hope you can remember things you've felt around me like my energy is so different etc.
I also know who raised you and you have told me at length the issues you have with your parents, I'm not going to criticize or talk about it unless you choose to. I can talk about my [censored] and what affects me and you can talk about yours if you want or when youre ready.
I'd like to focus on solving problems and positives rather than negatives.
Telling me Im manic on facetime then shutting down when I respond is not ok. This is gaslighting. I do similar things to you and need to work on not competing / going tit for tat as you call it.
Inviting me over to rub your neck to help you avoid a migrain is ok if we are in therapy and working on things. But if we are friends and taking it slow then being in bed topless in a thong is not. This is manipulation.
Dating me and intentionally pulling away and keeping me at arms length is not ok. This is counter productive and painful for me. If we are dating I need you to work on the things the therapist has recommended and building a foundation not keep me at a distance.
If we are talking avoiding communication because it is hard is not ok. Marriage is hard and takes work everyone I talk to says that. Many dont learn it until too late. I know that now and Im sorry I didnt sooner. We need to tell each other exactly what we mean so we dont assume and continue this negative cycle.
As long as we are working on things I will do my absolute best. I will make mistakes and I hope that we have enough progress that we can minimize the mistakes instead of letting them overwhelm and take steps backwards as happened this past week or two.
If you agree with me and want to continue to date that's up to you. You have just as much control of everything between us as I do. What do you need from me?
H: 33 W:32 M: 5 T: 8 D: 4 BD: 6/2017 MO: 6/2017 House sold: 6/28/18 W wants to build friendship / relationship- 9/18 Paying $ support since 7/18. Physical Reconnect- 10/18 W Starts- IC / MC - 10/18
rethinking all the stuff above. way too much ... short and sweet tomorrow. going to use therapy technique previous MC recommended. I talk for 2 minutes she waits for me to finish then responds.
H: 33 W:32 M: 5 T: 8 D: 4 BD: 6/2017 MO: 6/2017 House sold: 6/28/18 W wants to build friendship / relationship- 9/18 Paying $ support since 7/18. Physical Reconnect- 10/18 W Starts- IC / MC - 10/18
I'm glad you rethought all of it Did! But glad you got it all out in writing, hope that part helps. Maybe it's not stuff you talk about now, but that doesn't mean you don't need to release it in some healthy way. Glad you're here to write it out.
After 2 days of no contact I'm feeling a lot better.
So what do you take away from that? One is that time and space is as much for you as her. But perhaps more importantly- you are not detached.
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First I accept responsibility. I know how much I hurt you, I didnt water the plant that was our marriage and I know you have a lot of resentment and anger. Its not your fault and I understand.
You don't think she has ANY responsibility in the failure of your M? Because she does, and she needs to own it.
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Its up to you if you want to work on those things that lead to the inconsistency and make communication more difficult. I cant control you and I dont want to. I cant tell you how to do your self care. All I can say is what I need if we are seeing each other. I need you to try your best and put effort into what the therapist has recommended. If you choose to follow the therapists recommendations I am willing to do my absolute best to go at your pace, be mindful of your needs and respect your words.
^^^Lecturing^^^
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Healthy boundaries and communication - I know communication is hard between us and we have very different issues from our childhood. I can be pushy, negative or critical. I'm aware of that, I'm working on it and try to be mindful. I hope you can remember things you've felt around me like my energy is so different etc.
Redundant considering you're both in counseling.
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I also know who raised you and you have told me at length the issues you have with your parents, I'm not going to criticize or talk about it unless you choose to. I can talk about my [censored] and what affects me and you can talk about yours if you want or when youre ready.
Don't bring up her past, that's for the counselor to explore. She will talk to you if you LISTEN instead of lecturing her.
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I'd like to focus on solving problems and positives rather than negatives.
And yet, your whole list of talking points is negative.
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Telling me Im manic on facetime then shutting down when I respond is not ok. This is gaslighting. I do similar things to you and need to work on not competing / going tit for tat as you call it.
Argumentative. Accusatory. Baiting her for a fight.
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Inviting me over to rub your neck to help you avoid a migrain is ok if we are in therapy and working on things. But if we are friends and taking it slow then being in bed topless in a thong is not. This is manipulation.
Wow. Don't say that if you ever want to see her topless again. Who complains about seeing their wife topless.
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Dating me and intentionally pulling away and keeping me at arms length is not ok. This is counter productive and painful for me. If we are dating I need you to work on the things the therapist has recommended and building a foundation not keep me at a distance.
Don't tell her what to do, that's not communication. That's control and manipulation. Here's the thing, if you are detached and she pulls you in, you don't go all-in. And if she pushes you away, you don't cry about it. Why? Because when you are detached, you are unaffected by her emotional roller coaster. She goes up and down while you stay steady.
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If we are talking avoiding communication because it is hard is not ok. Marriage is hard and takes work everyone I talk to says that. Many dont learn it until too late. I know that now and Im sorry I didnt sooner. We need to tell each other exactly what we mean so we dont assume and continue this negative cycle.
Check into Retrouvaille. You need it really bad, probably worse than her. You are in dire need of learning how to communicate, this list is just awful. It's damaging and will set your recon prospects back light-years.
If you want to have a meaningful conversation with her than take your above list and burn it. Then get with her and LISTEN and VALIDATE.
