LBS dealing with WW (part 7) (piecing?)

[Joe2017]

First thread: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=61007&Number=2770370#Post2770370

Previous thread: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2831410&page=1

Last few posts:

Well, I'm back as square one emotionally.

I don't know if I will be able to get over the fact that she had a girls gone wild phase and is now supposedly over it. I have reason to believe that she had sex with more guys than she has told me about. Which is fine, I guess. It is not unlike dating someone new who I don't have any history with, except I do. I think she is lying a bit to save face. Yes, I looked at her phone. Gotta validate, right?

I don't know how to approach her about this without destroying all the work we've put into this so far. I mean, really? How do you tell the woman you love that... You LOVE her but don't trust her NOT to become a promiscuous piece of garbage again?

You know, we put so much into wanting to save our marriages that we come to a place like this. A place that literally has all of the tools and advice we'd ever need to save our own lives and POSSIBLY save our marriages after D... the second-most traumatic experience besides death that could strike us. We hope beyond hope for a chance to reconcile with the person who has left US in the dust. We pray that there was not an affair, yet 95% of the time they were screwing OP behind our backs.

Still we wait, and we DB, and we recreate ourselves into amazing people. Seriously, this site is FULL of the most amazing people that I have ever never met. We recreate ourselves, we stand up a lighthouse. We pray. We evolve and grow. We continue. We detach. We do fantastic things and overcome insurmountable obstacles.

We hear that yes, many waywards end up coming back to the spouse they betrayed. Maybe in 6 months, maybe in a year or two or three. Sometimes they are even willing to do the work to reconcile.

So here I am. In the situation I prayed to God for SO MANY TIMES. My XW has come back and repented. She is remorseful. She is subservient. In SO MANY ways, she is now the wife I always wanted during our marriage, but never got, because she tells me that she knows she was deficient so she is working to fix it. My freaking XW is doing 180's to please ME now... the person she chose to betray in the worst way possible.

She's done so much work already to try to regain my trust... seriously, she has done almost all of the things Sandi writes of when she describes how the LBS should approach a wayward who is returning. But I am so far from trusting my XW that I feel distant. And the more I become attached, the harder I want to push her away. What is wrong with me? Probably nothing but I don't feel like this is nothing.

I don't think I'm strong enough to do this. I think that this may not be worth the effort. I think I might be better off without her. I don't want to hurt her, and I don't want to hurt our kids.

I am almost close to being... Scared right now. Wow, is that normal? I've been deployed to war. I wore armor every day, carried guns, been in combat, and never ever got PTSD from it... and my freaking XW is scaring me? AGAIN???

This sht is bananas.

Joe,

I have been blown up in Iraq. Was Medavac off the battlefield. Watch people and vehicles shot up in Iraq. Shot at with PKMs and rockets in Afghanistan. Watch my friends vehicle get blown up in Afghanistan, I watch as they all stumbled out the MATV. Fall to the grown and we pulled security until the Medavac arrived. I watch how the little girls and women are treated by the men and the smelled the horrible smells coming from little girls that made heat paddies (which was made out of doo doo and dry grass). Which, the smells is really the only thing that haunts me today. I live normal life, considering. I have a Purple Heart and a Combat Action Badge.

My mother drown in Hurricane Katrina. And right after the Hurricane I didn't hear from anybody in my family for almost a week. And I didn't find out my mother had drawn until November 10th or so. I had to go to Baton to give a DNA sample, I did that in October of 2005. My mother's body rotted in our house for over 2 months in the New Orleans Humidity. We had to have a closed casket funeral. I cried for 3 months straight after her funeral and wouldn't believe she was dead because I never got to see her body, we were advised not to view it.

None of that has been as hard as piecing and learning to trust again. This Sh!t is harder than DBing. While DBing we are freeing ourselves, moving on, dumping the craziness, once we are on that path we start to gain clarity amd freedom. In piecing we are opening up our old wounds becoming vurnable again. It's not fun, and we see all the risk with opening ourselves up again to the person that wounded us, we see all that pain we just shook off us coming back and it scares the living hell out of us. It's not easy brother and it takes time, you have to be patient. Also, it took me a while to realize but your wife is not your healer, you are. Her job is to heal herself and work on the M. Your happiness and healing is not your W responsibility, ITS YOURS!!!!

I posted in the piecing tread most of the beginning of my journey of reconnecting. Please read it. This Sh!t is a roller coaster. One day last FEB, I was holding my baby boy, out of nowhere I just look at my wife and started crying, I handed her my son and I just turned around and ran out the house. It was freezing outside, I didn't have a jacket and had shorts on. I just kept running for like 30 or 40 mins. I did sprints and everything. What made me cry was, I looked at my son, and then looked at my W and I almost yelled out I can't do this, I want a Divorce. When I came back, my W can running to the door and said are you ok. I just sat down with her and explained my feelings and thoughts. She understood.

So, yes your feelings are normal and so are your actions. Dealing with reconnecting brings on PTSD like symthoms. You are fragile right now.

Keep posting and keep going forward

Time, time, time, let time do it's work.

Oh and my W just left a 1:30 A.M to console one of her friends, her 17 year old son was shot in the head and they are pulling the plug in the morning. This world is ruthless. He was a good kid, was joining the Army when he graduate. I was at the Texans and Colts game, what a horrible game played by Houston. Driving back to SA and get that news from wife. I pulled up, she went out. Our trust of each other have gotten better. I'm a Whodat boy thou!

Please pray for my W friend. Parents shouldn't have to bury their children!!!!!

Onward and upward/forward

WARNING: This is going to sound very superficial but I can't shake it. It's eating away at me.

XW used to be really skinny. She's very attractive. She never got what I consider to be overweight at all. But she had a few pounds on her when we first met. No big deal. She was was the woman of my dreams.

She had body image issues. So I supported her going and getting fit. I supported her going to the gym as much as she wanted. Then she went wayward, lost the weight, screwed a bunch of dudes. In fact, the OM was her gddamn coach at her gym!!!!! So, me supporting her fitness goals backfired in my face.

She was seriously HOT after the divorce. During her girls gone wild sht... She was smoking hot.

Then she gained the weight back when she hit rock bottom. Now she comes back to me when she is less attractive, and she tells me she hates how she looks.

I don't care about her weight at all. I loved her the most when she was the heaviest she's ever been in her life. Our M was very fulfilling back then and I didn't care about her weight at all.

Now I feel like she only came back to me because she feels unattractive, yet knew I was someone who accepted her regardless of her body.

But it makes me feel like -- at least physically -- she gave her best to everyone else instead of me. And now I get leftovers?

Yeah, that's super shallow. Trust me I know. I am not actually that superficial, but I can't help this feeling that I'm settling for my XW. This is NOT about her appearance as much as it is the idea that she worked her ass off to give her ass to other dudes. And now she's probably never going to get to that level physically again.

I really just feel like I'm settling for XW... not only emotionally and relationally, but now physically as well. Judge me if you like, but I feel like I've gotten the short end of the stick throughout this entire relationship.

I have never ever thought this way about my wife before, but now I do. It worries me how shallow this feels. I feel like a damn male chauvinist pig for having these feelings,

I don't know what's wrong with me.

She is close to giving up because of how much she has put into getting me back only to face obstacle after obstacle.

Joe I see a lot of red flags in your situation and I am just going to give you my OPINION.

Just like bomb was the hardest thing you ever went through, this is the hardest thing she should ever go through. If she is close to giving up already that's a big red flag.

Other red flags:

She's already lying to you again. How many guys she slept with afterwards matters.

Issues with your son? I thought they worked everything out?

She is definitely looking for someone to make her happy. She hasn't even tried to be on her own at all.

Right from the start something didn't seem right to me. This happened too fast. IMO true successful recons happen way down the road after you have walked different paths and have grown and have experienced life apart.

I think you are correct that she had some crappy experiences with OM and put on some weight and has come running back to good ole Joe. You guys are still young. What happens 7 years from now when your relationship shifts and she gets bored again?

[Yail]

Now I feel like she only came back to me because she feels unattractive, yet knew I was someone who accepted her regardless of her body.

But it makes me feel like -- at least physically -- she gave her best to everyone else instead of me. And now I get leftovers?

Yeah, that's super shallow. Trust me I know. I am not actually that superficial, but I can't help this feeling that I'm settling for my XW. This is NOT about her appearance as much as it is the idea that she worked her ass off to give her ass to other dudes. And now she's probably never going to get to that level physically again.

I really just feel like I'm settling for XW... not only emotionally and relationally, but now physically as well. Judge me if you like, but I feel like I've gotten the short end of the stick throughout this entire relationship.

I have never ever thought this way about my wife before, but now I do. It worries me how shallow this feels. I feel like a damn male chauvinist pig for having these feelings,

I don't know what's wrong with me.

First of all - I do not think this at all makes you chauvinistic. Not in this case - I'd say so if I thought you were. Please take that guilt off your plate.

I think you've done a really good job explaining that what is really bothering you is you feel like you aren't getting the very best version of XW.

When she was thinner she was pushing herself to be "more" and you don't get that drive from her. I see what you're saying. You deserve to have someone who is working to be their best while you also work to be your best. You want a strong partner.

Her body is a symptom. I hope that it does not show that she is resigned to being her normal weight, but more that she is comfortable again being her normal weight. It sounds like the former. How is she dressing? Too casually, or like she cares about and respects herself?

She may need to boomerang a bit more as she learns who she really is. She pushed herself too hard in one (wrong) direction before. But something wasn't right when she was with you the first time either. I'd encourage her to keep striving to find happiness in herself, but right now she probably wants to feel safe with you too. There's a lot on her plate.

I will say too that I've lost 15lbs in my own divorce diet. I look good. But we know that the reasons for me losing this weight are not healthy, so keep that in mind too. She lost the weight before for an unhealthy reason, so it wasn't really "her best" that OM was getting.

My XW has come back and repented. She is remorseful. She is subservient. In SO MANY ways, she is now the wife I always wanted during our marriage, but never got, because she tells me that she knows she was deficient so she is working to fix it.

You say you wanted her to be subservient and repenting. But with her weight it sounds like you want someone strong and taking care of themselves. Those are often two different things. I think what you want is someone who knows their own value and chooses you. A strong person will be remorseful for a true wrong doing. A strong person won't be subservient. They'll be your equal, and assist you as you assist them - each in different ways.

[Maika]

Hey Joe!

I've been following your sitch from the beginning when you came on the board and now this phase of where you're at. I don't have any advice as I haven't traveled this path. I do feel from your words how hard this is and I am glad you're writing about this so that other LBS's on the board get a sober look on piecing and how incredibly difficult it is. Everyone wants to be in your position without realizing that this process can be downright painful.

I do second LH's red flags. The walkaway/wayward has to go their path and take that time before turning around to the LBS. I'm afraid that she can't handle being alone and she's come back to you, even if she's done everything right by the book as Sandi always talks about.

I don't think your take on her physicality is shallow or superficial. The body can be a reflection of the mind, but not always. It would be hard not to feel that you're getting scraps now when you've seen her at her physical best.

About the men she's slept with, there are just two camps - you can be okay with it, or you can't. There is just no middle ground. I think you have to decide where you fall and that can help in your decision on what you want to do. AS has talked about this a bit and I am paraphrasing in my own words - you can treat her like a new girlfriend and you know that she's had lovers in the past and because you're building something new together, her past comes with her as a package. If you can't do that, then you're better off ending it.

Wish you all the best!

[joejoe1]

Joe,

I was hard on my W for the first few months as well. I remember one day she just broke, just broke down, started shaking and crying, she couldn't talk. It had to be around 5 or 6 months into piecing. What she told me, hit me hard. She said, she is trying her hardest to show me she wants to be with me and only me, but I was making impossible demands. And she was right. I was always finding reasons for her to fix something. Because I always was looking for her wrongs. She was right. I was so worried about looking for her hurting me again, I was looking at her in a narrow light. She started going down the list of all she was doing, and I didnt see quite a bit of what she was doing right. When a person hurts us we tend to hold that hurt over their head.

You are right to be hurt, but if you truly know you can't get over it. It's time for you to let her know. It's hard I know, but if you keep looking at her in a light of who she was while she was WW, you won't see the new her.

I had to do a lot of reading and video watching on how to trust again. And Trust is something that comes with consistency and seeing consistency takes time.

You can't rush this one buddy. It's no words she can tell you that will heal you, only her actions. When people are WW they do a whole lot of things that are against their morals. Also when she was with most of those guys she wasn't married to you, is that right? If that's the truth, holding that over her head is unfair. You'll weren't together, so dwelling on that will only bring more pain.

Your W actions are showing you what's she wants. I start making rules for R and M talks. We only do them at night, away from the kids and they only last around 30 mins, especially when talking about the past. We save deep talks for our counseling sessions. I also write down my questions, so I can go back and reference, if I had asked that question before. I also write down her answers, to go back and reference.

When I started doing that my questioning sessions got less and less, especially ones about the A. Now my questions and comments are more about what she isn't doing. I also comment on what she's doing right. She tells me what I can work on as well. We are keeping each honest. She isn't the only one with work and improving to do.

I say your W actions are showing you she wants to be with you. Your W will get frustrated as well. It's not easy on either side of this journey.

[Joe2017]

First, thanks for letting me know I'm not a jerk who just wants a hot girl on his arm. Getting the girl is not the hard part for me.

When she was thinner she was pushing herself to be "more" and you don't get that drive from her. I see what you're saying. You deserve to have someone who is working to be their best while you also work to be your best. You want a strong partner.

Her body is a symptom. I hope that it does not show that she is resigned to being her normal weight, but more that she is comfortable again being her normal weight. It sounds like the former. How is she dressing? Too casually, or like she cares about and respects herself?

You say you wanted her to be subservient and repenting. But with her weight it sounds like you want someone strong and taking care of themselves. Those are often two different things. I think what you want is someone who knows their own value and chooses you. A strong person will be remorseful for a true wrong doing. A strong person won't be subservient. They'll be your equal, and assist you as you assist them - each in different ways.

Hi Yail!

Yes, that's it. That's it exactly... I want a strong partner. XW was weak, and became WW.

She is not "resigned" to being her normal weight. She is going to the gym and has lost a four pounds since we started dating again a few weeks ago.

It's just that she struggled for years and years with it while we were married. Never got it under control like she wanted until the end, and as soon as she was slender she went and cheated on me like I wasn't worth the gum on her shoe. Her phone has some sexy selfies on it that I know she must have sent her OM or other OM. In 6 years of marriage, even after asking and explaining, she never once sent me a sexy selfie. Not one. Did I mention not one? It was like I wasn't worth it to her.

As far as her being subservient, I guess that's the wrong word. From my perspective it's more like... she actually listens to me. In R1 she never really listened to me. Everything had to be her way or she would not be happy about it. I am extremely financially responsible yet she never let me handle money. The list goes on. So maybe it's more about her respecting me as a man and as a partner. I feel her respecting me now, and it feels good.

And congrats on dropping the 15 lbs! I am 50 lbs lighter than I was at BD last year. Just keep up the GAL and get at least some activity in every day! I bet you look great!

Everyone wants to be in your position without realizing that this process can be downright painful.

I do second LH's red flags. The walkaway/wayward has to go their path and take that time before turning around to the LBS. I'm afraid that she can't handle being alone and she's come back to you, even if she's done everything right by the book as Sandi always talks about.

About the men she's slept with, there are just two camps - you can be okay with it, or you can't. There is just no middle ground. I think you have to decide where you fall and that can help in your decision on what you want to do. AS has talked about this a bit and I am paraphrasing in my own words - you can treat her like a new girlfriend and you know that she's had lovers in the past and because you're building something new together, her past comes with her as a package. If you can't do that, then you're better off ending it.

Thanks Maika. Yes... it is painful. DB is great to recover your own self dignity and respect. It's harder to give the same back to the WAS/WS because of what they did to the LBS. It's absolutely difficult because there is no more blind faith.

I understand the red flags. We talked about it today, and I think she was telling the truth about the number of OM's, and I misinterpreted something I read on her phone. I am trying to give her the benefit of the doubt, even if she may not deserve it yet. I am trying to help her along in her journey as much as I can, without enabling any bad behaviors or assisting her with any of the aftermath of the A.

Joe,

I was hard on my W for the first few months as well. I remember one day she just broke, just broke down, started shaking and crying, she couldn't talk. It had to be around 5 or 6 months into piecing. What she told me, hit me hard. She said, she is trying her hardest to show me she wants to be with me and only me, but I was making impossible demands. And she was right. I was always finding reasons for her to fix something. Because I always was looking for her wrongs. She was right. I was so worried about looking for her hurting me again, I was looking at her in a narrow light. She started going down the list of all she was doing, and I didnt see quite a bit of what she was doing right. When a person hurts us we tend to hold that hurt over their head.

I say your W actions are showing you she wants to be with you. Your W will get frustrated as well. It's not easy on either side of this journey.

Thanks again joejoe. I tend to agree with you. I think she is making a lot of effort to regain my trust.

I remember getting a call from XW on the day our D was final. She told me that the paperwork was done and signed. She said she was exhausted from being in the hospital all night, getting discharged and going straight to court. Apparently, the night before she broke down, had some sort of episode, got taken to the ER, and had to be sedated. I think she was in a lot of pain and she was really torn about the D.

Tonight she called me. She was watching something on TV and just wanted to chat. She spent the rest of the phone call sobbing about how she misses our MR and how she should have never given up on us and how she would do anything to go back and change things. How she would do so many things differently and never take me for granted again. She just kept crying about everything, like selling her wedding band when she hit rock bottom. I just validated and tried to comfort her. I really didn't know how to handle it. I wasn't prepared to feel it with her like I would have been only a couple years ago.

This is weird to say, but at some point I am going to have to pick up the rope again.

[sandi2]

Piecing is harder than I thought it would be. One day at a time...

I wouldn't consider this Piecing. I wouldn't even consider it a reconciliation. You are just dating and talking. That's all.

I think she hit you too quickly, and according to the dates on your posts, she immediately started letting you know that she wanted to M you. But you have not healed emotionally from the pain she caused, so you are experiencing doubts.

You have unhealed wounds. I think you have a lot of resentment that you never addressed. And, you have this need to punish her. IMHO, the two of you should not move in together or become too cozy until you've seen a therapist that mainly deals with healing after an A. The divorce did not take care of those issues. You can't pretend to wipe the slate clean and start over, b/c those doubts, resentments, and other negative thoughts will plague you and prevent you from experiencing the full benefits a couple has a right to enjoy in a close, loving, and confident relationship.

I think she is lying a bit to save face. Yes, I looked at her phone. Gotta validate, right?

I think the word you meant to use is "verify". Do you think she is lying about how many guys she slept with, or about her GGW activity? I can only try to imagine how very painful it must be to think of your spouse engaging in those inappropriate activities. This was during the period where you were divorced, right? Perhaps you see her as being tainted......compared to how she was when she became your virgin bride. This might be something to address to a qualified therapist. And, btw, I am not implying any of your feelings are wrong. I'm saying that I don't think you have healed enough to undertake another intimate and committed relationship with her at this time. Get the healing first.

Don't misunderstand me. You have made progress with your personal life, GAL, 180's, etc. You were feeling like a new man, right? These are all positive things. However, I sense that instead of you seeking therapy, you just thought you would not have to address your negative feelings about her.....since you were divorced and would probably never be in each others lives again. Now, that she is pursuing you and wants to get M again, these unresolved negative feelings are resurfacing. It's going to play havoc with your head, going forward. You need this type of therapist who will address your concerns about her slipping back into a wayward pattern again. You have a fear of being hurt again......and who wouldn't? Nobody could blame you for taking precaution before entering into a MR with the person who hurt you the worst.

Please consider making it a top priority to see this type of therapist. Both of you need these sessions, b/c you are not prepared to enter into a second MR with each other........especially you. If you really want to give another relationship your best......then both of you will seek some method that keeps you emotionally on track and accountable. That's not to say you can't still see each other and continue to date if that's what you want. I know you say you're taking things slowly, but it's not slow enough. It's not necessary to jump into M again, is it? Don't you have plenty of time?

[Joe2017]

Oh, I think you're absolutely right about that. I have already discussed most of those points in my last thread regarding dealing with the emotional baggage of my ex. I had basically hidden anything I didn't need to deal with at the time because it was unimportant at that point in my life. I never thought I'd ever have to work on dating my XW so I never dealt with many of those issues. With my IC I worked primarily with the immediate divorce: stuff like codependency and abandonment.

No I don't want to get married right now. I may never. She does want to remarry and I've had to tell her I'm not in that same place. We do have plenty of time, and I do not feel rushed.

Is she tainted? It's not like touching her repulses me, so I don't think so. This is more like, I am suddenly jealous. I never had jealousy issues before, really. Now I do? Yuck. I don't like this feeling. Jealous people cheat. She was always the jealous one.

I have been to an IC quite a lot, but none of it has ever been focused on being with my ex again. I will have to figure out the logistics of getting in to see a MC. We are not on the same insurance, so I need to figure out how it will get paid for. Do they accept halfsies? I dunno.

[Yail]

I wouldn't consider this Piecing. I wouldn't even consider it a reconciliation. You are just dating and talking. That's all.

I don't mean to hijack, but I'm wondering if Sandi you might be able to give a good definition of piecing? It doesn't apply to my sitch, but I've never quite been clear to the definition despite reading others who are working on it. Maybe there's a good definition somewhere I've missed.

Thanks!

[burned]

Another hijack:

Jealous people cheat. She was always the jealous one.

If it's not a distraction to the stuff you're dealing with, can you elaborate? This applies to me, and I've heard it elsewhere, so I'm wondering what the underlying truth is.

[Joe2017]

Another hijack:

Jealous people cheat. She was always the jealous one.

If it's not a distraction to the stuff you're dealing with, can you elaborate? This applies to me, and I've heard it elsewhere, so I'm wondering what the underlying truth is.

Disclaimer: I'm not a professional. I don't have any empirical evidence to support my claim.

Analyzing my sitch, I found out that my XW often projected her negative emotions on me. I was always the jerk first in her opinion... Sometimes she'd come around and admit she was wrong, sometimes not. During the D, I was definitely ALWAYS at fault in her eyes. She'd do something and project it on me.

I think it could be similar in some instances, where a narcissistic person views themselves as so desirable that they could have anyone they want... And therefore they project the thoughts of going outside of the relationship upon their partner. In their mind, their spouse had better not do that crap to them... but mostly because they can't stand not being the center of their partner's world at all times and they want to OWN the spouse's love, respect, and affection.

I could be way off base, but that's my amateur opinion.