She cried, begged. Saying “what can I do...I’ll do anything “.
She'll do anything for what? To stay in the MBR??? Stay in the marriage?
You handled that conversation really well, DC421. She may try to blow up your phone this weekend, trying to temp check you. My advice is to not respond to her texts throughout the weekend. You asked her to stay somewhere else and give you space. So, this weekend she will probably be focused on you and wondering what you plan to do.
She must "work" to get you back, b/c of her waywardness. Her reaction to you moving her things out and asking her to stay away this weekend was a good start. At this point, the only thing you want to hear from her is that she has ended things with OM. Until she ends her A, you aren't interested in sharing a home, and especially sharing the marital bedroom. Therefore, should she ask you again what she needs to do, or if she says she is willing to do anything.......your response to her is, "End things with OM and have zero contact with him......and agree to be transparent to me".
Now she may promise to end the A, but don't get excited you see some type of evidence that she has ended contact. That means if she is willing for NC with OM, then she has to agree to be completely transparent and work with you to do what's necessary to heal the MR. All you need in the beginning is her commitment to end all contact with OM and agree to be transparent to you. Until you get that part of it........there's no point in trying to hash out the problems, or agree to whatever alternative she may propose. This is all you need to share with her, so don't let her pull you off into some relationship discussion or distract you by telling you all the things you will need to change, too. No, you discuss nothing until she commits to those two terms. She betrayed you. It wasn't the other way around. And these are not the only requirements you'll have, but it is the first step. Don't respond to anything else, just tell her one time, and don't text anymore. Saying it one time and not responding to anymore texts from her, will have a much more powerful punch, than if you go into this back & forth texting thing. You are not interested in anything she has to say until she says she'll end the A and be transparent. Okay?
You may be surprised to hear her reluctance transparency. more than ending her A. WW's are not keen on doing it. I've seen cases where they got really irate about it, accuse the H of controlling, etc. Bear in mind, she is still wayward. Just ending an A does not end her wayward mindset/behavior. Understand? That's why you have to require transparency from her. And, some LBH's will tell the WW that he'll be transparent, too. No! Don't do that! He's not the wayward party here. She is! She has to give an account of her actions, as long as the H feels it necessary. It's not her call. It's his! She has to atone (as Vanilla would say). Just to clarify about her still being wayward when she ends the A........it is the first step in getting herself out of the wayward mindset. It's the first step back for her. So, I just wanted you to understand it.
As extra (you knew I wouldn't end a post there^^^^^^^^), I want to explain why this first step is necessary.
One of the biggest mistakes the LBH makes is taking his WW back too easily. In other words, he doesn't require anything other than ending her A. If the WW won't agree to be transparent......I guarantee you that she isn't ending her contact with OM. Transparency helps her in giving an account, and it assists her in getting through the emotional withdrawals of the A and moving forward in healing the MR. Obviously, it helps the H in several ways. I strongly advise the LBH to have some type of method or system that shows him she is staying on the narrow road back to establishing an honest and trustworthy MR.
You can't trust a WW's word alone. She will need to make amends, and follow some method that backs up what she claims. I think her agreeing to give you access to her phone activity is a good method. But beware, cause she's likely to buy a burner phone and keep it hidden. The LBH has to have something that verifies her claim. We use to have a vet that would say, "Trust and verify". I say to just verify, until you feel safer in the relationship. Then you can occasionally verify (without her ever knowing what you are doing). You want to have a means where you can check out what she's doing, without her being aware of it. Why? B/c she is a manipulator, a liar, a cheater........you get the picture. Besides, she agreed to be transparent, so you are just checking to make sure she's not playing you.
Any questions?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
She has been blowing up my phone all day. I finally replied with "I asked for you to respect me enough to give me time and space this weekend...and you can't even manage that." Then I told her I would not be responding to anything else this weekend and reminded her to leave the house until Monday morning when kids return. She agreed and stopped texting for now. She will be leaving the house soon. I haven't been home all day...and won't be until much later than when she leaves. I had a fun/busy day already planned and I'm doing my best to not allow her to ruin that.
She said in her begging this morning that she would commit to NC with the OM. Saying she will block him on social media, phone, blah blah blah. She also volunteered the transparency piece too. I didn't respond to her on that part of the conversation. Like I said before (I think) - I told her words are easy and that she was in bed with OM just hours ago...so I don't believe anything you say.
She asked "what do I need to do to show you that I want to fix this". I didn't answer...as I feel it's not my job to tell her what to do. She needs to figure that out...not do it because I told her. Not sure that's right or not?? But it's what I said.
When the WW cries and begs and asks what to do, she wants to be a family again, etc ... How do you know if she really is committed and just doesn't get better at hiding?
You may not remember my story but around 4 years ago I discovered the EA and after telling me she wanted a second chance, she loved me, etc I gave her a chance.
Throught these past 3 years there were moments I questioned certain incidents but she said i was mistaken and also that that part of her life was a messed up period and she moved on. She even went on to say the OM never contacted her again etc when the subject came up.
A few months ago I discovered by chance she was sending likes to some photos in his instagram account during these past 3 years and vice versa with the occasional text. Not all of the photos but each year at least 3-4 photos which obviously means there was continuous contact. The only non negotiable condition.
Her excuse was that he had an accident and ended up in coma. The story was true but even after coming out of it they still mantained contact via instagram at least.
After calling her out she now says what can she do to make it right, it was a dark moment she fell into and during the summer she began to realize she loved me and wants us to be a family and even move away to another city ot country.
I am planning on moving out for a while until I get my head into shape. DBing worked for me and I have approached this in a totally different frame of mind than expectd.
How do you react to this. How do trust them again? Can you trust them? How do you make sure you are not fooled again without being over controlling? What signs did I miss? IF I gave her a second chance what do I control as she no longer kept her phone with her all the time and the evidence shows these things are not tied to texting. Every 2nd chance they get, are these not ctrl-alt-sup and reset to try another way of maintaining contact without being caught?
I worked on myself, did become a better person and father and partner.
TBH I feel like walking out and all I can say is that IHS does in effect NOT work and that working on piecing is harder than anyone gives it credit for but firstly make sure both are piecing.
She asked "what do I need to do to show you that I want to fix this". I didn't answer...as I feel it's not my job to tell her what to do. She needs to figure that out...not do it because I told her. Not sure that's right or not?? But it's what I said.
You should tell her. Do the R2C strong eye contact thing. Put a list together first, have us here review it, then once it’s ready, memorize it. She can’t read your mind on this. And it will be an opportunity to test whether she’s committed. If she balks on any of the terms, it’s just a big giant Nope.
H: 35 W: 33 M: 11 T: 13
4/10/18: I discovered A and confronted ("BD1") 6/23/18: I moved out 8/31/18: MC ends ("BD2")
DC, you are getting some great advice, but much more importantly- you are FOLLOWING the advice. Well done! I know it's not easy as your intuition is probably telling you to do something else, but in dealing with a wayward the "tough love" approach is the only one that works. It's frankly not a lot different than dealing with a drug addict.
Originally Posted by DC421
She said in her begging this morning that she would commit to NC with the OM. Saying she will block him on social media, phone, blah blah blah. She also volunteered the transparency piece too. I didn't respond to her on that part of the conversation. Like I said before (I think) - I told her words are easy and that she was in bed with OM just hours ago...so I don't believe anything you say.
Exactly right. Someone addicted to heroin is more than happy to swear to give it up within an hour or so of their last hit but those are hollow words indeed. Wait until the withdrawals are in full swing and THEN see what their attitude is, most can think of nothing more than getting another hit no matter what damage it means to their life. It is the same with your W. She is a liar, it goes hand-in-hand with the cheating. So really what she is committing to is to lie about all things great and small to make you think she's "come clean".
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She asked "what do I need to do to show you that I want to fix this". I didn't answer...as I feel it's not my job to tell her what to do.
She needs to do the things Sandi said, and she needs to show those things consistently for MONTHS before you should be willing to believe that maybe she's serious. That should be the challenge you pose to her. Give up OM, offer full transparency (give you all social media passwords, access to her phone whenever you want) and show you consistent, changed behavior for 2 or 3 months minimum and THEN you can discuss where to go from there. A wayward who is still a wayward will not accept these terms and will call you controlling and manipulative and accuse you of not having faith and trust (as if they deserve that!) A truly repentant WAS who genuinely wants to save the M will be willing to do this and more though.
How do you react to this. How do trust them again? Can you trust them? How do you make sure you are not fooled again without being over controlling?
She has to EARN your trust. That is the only way it will work. You asked what your mistake was, well it's pretty simple, you trusted her too much too soon. FULL transparency means exactly that. You should have her IG and FB passwords and whatever other social media account passwords she may have. You should have full access to pop in to those accounts whenever you want to verify she's not having contact with any OM. This is NOT "over controlling", it might be in a healthy relationship but yours is not a healthy one. You trusted her and she blew it not once but TWICE. The only way back from that is for her to give up some of her privacy to prove to you that you can trust her again.
AS is headshooting as usual...DC treat W as an addict, I was on that position some time ago. It´s an addiction as powerful as any drug or alcohol. I´m nearly 3 years OW free and still longing for a hit...but I know myself better now. So, besides transparency and commitment, she´ll need some professional help, some IC or similar in the near future.
Keep strong there DC!
WW H(me): 53 W: 48 T: 27 M: 22 S: 18 Piecing since 03/2016 Saw the light in the storm
She has been blowing up my phone all day. I finally replied with "I asked for you to respect me enough to give me time and space this weekend...and you can't even manage that." Then I told her I would not be responding to anything else this weekend and reminded her to leave the house until Monday morning when kids return. She agreed and stopped texting for now. She will be leaving the house soon. I haven't been home all day...and won't be until much later than when she leaves. I had a fun/busy day already planned and I'm doing my best to not allow her to ruin that.
She said in her begging this morning that she would commit to NC with the OM. Saying she will block him on social media, phone, blah blah blah. She also volunteered the transparency piece too. I didn't respond to her on that part of the conversation. Like I said before (I think) - I told her words are easy and that she was in bed with OM just hours ago...so I don't believe anything you say.
She asked "what do I need to do to show you that I want to fix this". I didn't answer...as I feel it's not my job to tell her what to do. She needs to figure that out...not do it because I told her. Not sure that's right or not?? But it's what I said.
I'd reply and say what AS said but what's the point? If you are skeptical, or maybe feel like prolonging this, go read my threads and buckle in for the rollercoaster.
You are doing great. Just stay firm. I was kind of like you, I wanted her to tell me how she would rebuild the trust. I did offer some suggestions though after she gave hers.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
Hi Max, I'll try share my thoughts about the questions you have.
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When the WW cries and begs and asks what to do, she wants to be a family again, etc ... How do you know if she really is committed and just doesn't get better at hiding?
Was she crying b/c she was remorseful, or was she crying b/c she was caught and may be losing her family?
I'd first look to see the marital status at the time of the begging/pleading. Was she living with her H? Was she living IHS, or was she physically separated from her H? Did she and her H fully reconcile after she had an A, and did he hold her accountable (transparency) and did she go through affair withdrawals?
Next, I'd check out the timing of when this took place. What was happening that may have brought her to this place? Did she get caught the second time by her H? Did her H get fed up and she sees him walking away for good? Has something caused her eyes to open and now she has gone willingly to her H to humbly apologize and ask for another chance? Has she said she's willing to do whatever it takes to save the M?
I believe there is a difference in a W who is genuinely recovering from waywardness........and one who fakes it. True repentance is a good start, but sometimes a WW can be such a great actress it takes the Almighty to know her heart. So, humans can only evaluate what they observe in her.
IMHO, there are three things that has to line up consistently for a sufficient amount of time. Her words, her behavior, and her attitude. This is the measuring stick to determine if she really wants to be a faithful W and do whatever is necessary to save her M and family. Any woman with enough sense will know that once she's caught, she is on some type of trial basis and should show her best efforts. However, if her head/heart is preoccupied with self and OM, she's going to slip somewhere. It will show in her face/eyes; body language; voice; attitude; the way she responds to her H (and sometimes to her children); refusing to follow the transparency plan; her lack of willingness to do what her H needs/wants; her lack of cooperation with his leadership in the home/family; her lack of respect for her H in front of the children, and/or others; no sexual touching (in some cases) or no open mouth deep kisses (in some cases); her coldness and disinterest in her H/MR. Her true motives are selfish She may be able to fake it for a short period, but not indefinitely. Not if her H knows to watch for these signs. There are other things that might be detected when the W is hiding an A or making contact with her AP. Looking at those things that first caused suspicion when she was in an A.
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Throught these past 3 years there were moments I questioned certain incidents but she said i was mistaken and also that that part of her life was a messed up period and she moved on. She even went on to say the OM never contacted her again etc when the subject came up.
A few months ago I discovered by chance she was sending likes to some photos in his instagram account during these past 3 years and vice versa with the occasional text. Not all of the photos but each year at least 3-4 photos which obviously means there was continuous contact. The only non negotiable condition.
Did you require her to follow a transparency plan after the first affair? Were there any MC sessions after her first A? You can't just give a WW another chance without making certain requirements, b/c nothing changes for her. Even if she slacks off contacting OM, she won't go through the process of affair withdrawal, get counseling, have a workable plan for repairing the damage, etc. In other words. she has to work to get her H and MR back again. Otherwise, she's likely to not fully value what she has. It'd be like handing a penny to a spoiled, rich kid. So my question is did she have to do anything uncomfortable in order to keep her H, or were you just too happy to get her back from OM? There is a reason she needs to work to get you.
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After calling her out she now says what can she do to make it right, it was a dark moment she fell into and during the summer she began to realize she loved me and wants us to be a family and even move away to another city ot country.
Is she telling you that is why she continued contacting OM....b/c she fell into a dark moment? This is why there needs to be therapy whenever a couple is trying to heal from an A. Whether or not she had a dark moment, you can't have a MR where you are concerned about her next dark moment and what she may choose to do. She needs to become educated in how this works on her emotions, how affairs are addictive, and how affairs play out. She needs to know the reality, instead of her fantasy dreams. There needs to be some type of therapy and follow up program to keep her on track so that she won't fall back into that old behavior. You can't just give another chance, and expect her to have the tools to deal with the emotional fallout of her A, Even if she is quite smart or has a string of letters behind her name, the recovering WW needs to be educated in much the same way as you were educated when you came to the board.
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How do you react to this. How do trust them again? Can you trust them?
It depends on what I mentioned in the previous paragraph. Plus, you may not be able to just stop verifying her phone/computer activities. The first time you suspected something didn't measure up, you should have addressed it., You can't accept her claims of being in your head, or whatever. She should either give some type of evidence or at the lest, a detailed account that would explain what happened. The H's biggest mistakes are not making her work to get the MR back; not enforcing a transparency plan; and letting things slide when his gut is telling him something isn't right.
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TBH I feel like walking out and all I can say is that IHS does in effect NOT work and that working on piecing is harder than anyone gives it credit for but firstly make sure both are piecing.
I think I see the problem. You can't be IHS and in Piecing simultaneously. Now days, I discourage IHS b/c I've never seen it produce a successful reconciliation with a WW.
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I worked on myself, did become a better person and father and partner.
Maybe so, but what did she do, Max? Did she do any work on herself? Did she ever even commit to doing whatever was necessary to save the MR? I have my doubts, if you were still living IHS.
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How do you make sure you are not fooled again without being over controlling?
You know that's the battle cry of every WW, don't you? "You just want to control my life!" You start by finding your b@lls and stand up to her and tell her that there will be no more IHS, and if she wants a second chance, she'll have to agree to your terms.......or you are out of there. It's that simple. You start calling the shots, instead of dodging her bullet all the time.
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After calling her out she now says what can she do to make it right, it was a dark moment she fell into and during the summer she began to realize she loved me and wants us to be a family and even move away to another city ot country.
Oh really? Did she start sharing your bed? Was she giving you passionate open mouth tongue kisses? If not, then she's lying. At what point did she realize she loved you? Let me guess, when you called her out about contacting OM.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
She asked "what do I need to do to show you that I want to fix this". I didn't answer...as I feel it's not my job to tell her what to do. She needs to figure that out...not do it because I told her.
Actually, you can't trust her to figure it out. Sometimes, they aren't in the right condition to figure it out, especially if she's still thinking like a WW. This is the perfect time to tell her your terms. There can be no contact of any type with OM for the rest of her life. Never! This is nonnegotiable. She blocks everything from him. She can't even like something on on SM. She has to agree to being transparent. She cannot have any secret friendships. The two of you see a therapists who deals with couples healing from an affair.
BTW, don't agree to you being transparent with her (like some crazy H's do, in their attempt to get her to go alone with it). You are the faithful spouse. You are the betrayed spouse here. She is the wayward spouse, and transparency is about her being accountable. If she has a problem with it, rest assured she is not serious about saving the MR.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
