Rocky Road

[Miler]

Hi gang,

Any input would be greatly appreciated! I've DB'd once in my life, and unfortunately, I find myself here again .

Married for 20 years
-separated for 5 months in 2015 (we both dated other people, but never pulled the trigger on the D)
-have children 18, 16, 11

After the separation, we entered couples counseling. We have been at that for 3+ years. There were a LOT of issues to work through when we got back together. We both struggled with trust issues, we weren't truly connecting, and just plain bad experiences (not that we didn't have our really good times). It was almost like we went through this cycle in which we connected really intensely, then distanced really intensely. REPEAT.

Well, over the last 9 months or so, we have faced a ton. The honeymoon of getting back together waned, we focused on the kids...stressors of sending one off to college, one struggling in school, and our other son lost his best friend (that was like a fourth child to us). In addition, I started a new business and she is growing hers.

Around 4 weeks ago, I came back from a business trip and she seemed cold. Definitely no affection, we hadn't been intimate in a month, and she wasn't reaching out like she typically would. She also wasn't wearing her wedding ring. She done this in the past when she works out a lot. She's lost weight in the past and the ring is very loose, and it bothers her when she workouts out. In the next therapy session, she said she felt like we hadn't connected in a year and felt like maybe we just were incapable of connecting outside of sex. We had different styles of connection. We spoke about this more when we got home. She didn't say she wanted to leave again (earlier separation was walk-away-spouse). I asked if she wanted to work on the marriage and she said yes. I asked if she felt like separation was an option again. She said that we promised the kids that we wouldn't split up again and that we needed to think about them. She said that it wasn't like we were walking around miserable or anything, but that she was frustrated that we "were back here again.

I went right to the drawing board to work on myself and learn what my barriers were to connection. I do certainly have my issues and I wasn't really clear on what here Love Language was. Man, am I clear now!!! She is a Quality Time gal, and loves to connect through shared experiences and quality conversation. I was NOT giving her my full undivided attention, I was not validating, I was constantly in my own head trying to figure out what to say next, I was not listening, and I was not initiating quality time experiences.

Life has been different for the last 3 weeks. I have been working hard and she has definitely noticed the changes. I had a BAD moment yesterday... I initiated some relationship talk. UGG. It was heavy, but I did practice good listening and validating. I asked about her continued distance. She has thawed over the last 3 weeks, but still no affection, no casual touching, no initiating "ILY", though she does freely initiate conversation and will reciprocate if I initiate casual touching. There still feels like there is a bit of a wall up. She reported that she was still frustrated that we were here again. She noticed changes, and felt more hopeful about the M than she was 3 weeks ago. We had a phenomenal Valentine's date, we went to an escape room with the kids, and we were intimate on Valentine's Day (though she didn't get me a card or present as she usually does...and I did).

Here's me freaking:
-If she wants to work on the M, why doesn't it look like she is from my end???
-Why is she still so cold??
-My mind fears she is just biding her time to WAW again once my oldest goes to college in the fall
-How do I gain more connective experiences without seeming desperate?
-Do I continue to ask her to do things? Do I continue to say ILY?
-Do I pull away a little and give her space? Let her come to me?
-It's so hard to remain upbeat and continue with good listening when she seems cold and not interested in pushing ahead
-IT FEELS LIKE I AM JUST WAITING FOR HER TO MAKE UP HER MIND!!!
-It feels like she has all the control

Despite the heavy talk yesterday, she continues to initiate small talk.

Any input or advice is greatly welcomed!!

Thanks guys,
Miler

[SteveLW]

Miler, sorry you find yourself back in this situation.

Let me tackle your list:

-If she wants to work on the M, why doesn't it look like she is from my end???

This is you trying to control her. It has been 3 weeks. That is a blip on the radar screen. Give it time. Calm down, take a breath and remember that these things take time. You can't fix overnight what took you weeks, months and years to get into.

-Why is she still so cold??

I think you know the answer to this. She has told you. She feels like you are back to where you were during the separation. She has admitted that her only reason for not separating again is because of the promise to the kids. That means her heart is not into it right now. Stop initiating affection. Stop saying ILY. Give her time and space to figure it out. By all means continue to do the 180s you've done but avoid pursuit and pressure. No WAS responds to pursuit and pressure by drawing closer. Read the distance/pursuit thread.

-My mind fears she is just biding her time to WAW again once my oldest goes to college in the fall

Maybe she is. What can you do about it? NOTHING. So why dwell on it. Live in the now and be the man only a fool would leave! She'll either open her heart back up to you, or you won't, but you can't CONTROL her. You can only control you!

-How do I gain more connective experiences without seeming desperate?

You don't. Anything you do (pressure and pursuit) to "gain more connective experiences" will seem desperate. She will question why you are doing it now. She'll see it as manipulation., that you are only doing it to get her to stay. This is why it doesn't work! So be kind, be considerate, be present. Find opportunities to fill her love take with her LL, but don't go overboard. Which leads us to:

-Do I continue to ask her to do things? Do I continue to say ILY?

No (sort of). And NO!! On the asking her to do things, don't "ask her". As in don't say "Do you want to go to the movies tonight?" And then if she says no, don't go. Instead, say "Hey, I am going to see XYZ movie tonight. You are welcome to come if you want."

And stop saying ILY. When you say that it makes her remember that maybe she doesn't love you right now. Plus it pressures her to respond with "ILY2". Both of those things are bad. So for now, no ILYs.

-Do I pull away a little and give her space? Let her come to me?

Yes, but don't do it coldly or meanly. Read the detachment thread so you know how to do this lovingly, where you are still present and kind. But the opposite of giving her space is to pursue and pressure. DON'T DO THAT!

-It's so hard to remain upbeat and continue with good listening when she seems cold and not interested in pushing ahead

Nothing in life that is worthwhile is easy. So do what is hard. Is it hard to be upbeat? And to listen? YES. But what is the opposite. To be mopey and sad? To not listen? Who wants to be married to that guy?!? Again, you are too concerned with her being cold and not interested. YOU HAVE NO CONTROL OVER HER!!!!! I keep repeating that for a reason. You need to understand that.

-IT FEELS LIKE I AM JUST WAITING FOR HER TO MAKE UP HER MIND!!!

This is what limbo is. You already know you want to save your MR. She isn't there. So you have a choice. You can pull the plug, go file for D, and move on with your life. OR you can be the man only a fool would love, see limbo as the gift of time, detach (lovingly), continue your 180s, and GAL!! (don't forget GAL!). Those are your choices right now. On detachment, look up "self differentiation in marriage". Studying that is eye-opening!

-It feels like she has all the control

Here is the crux of your problem. My guess is that you, like me, are a control freak. Here is the thing......you can only control one person this life: YOU! You have no control over anyone else. And trying to control others is a miserable way to go through this life. So stop it and don't do it. Focus on controlling yourself. She'll either come back, or she will leave. You have no control over that. But you can control the effect her decision has on you!! Concentrate on you.

[job]

Here is the link to your previous thread:

Wife ready to walk away

[SteveLW]

Miler something doesn't add up:

Me: 44
Her: 32
T: 22, M: 20
D:18, S:16, S:11

You were 22 and she was 10 when you got together? She was 12 and you were 24 when you got married? she had your D when she was 14?

[Miler]

Ha Ha! That's a typo...she's 42.

[Miler]

Thanks for the reminders Steve! It's hard...it's real hard. I guess the basic gist is to continue to 180 and GAL, let her come to me, focus on our conversations and give her my full attention, validate, and detach for a bit.

[SteveLW]

Ha Ha! That's a typo...she's 42.

Okay! Whew! Though that would have potentially been your problem.

[Miler]

We are from the south, but no

[ovrrnbw]

Miler,

are you committed to making a positive change in your life? It looks like you've been here before, very briefly, been in MC for years, and somehow you fell back into unproductive behaviors. What's different for you this time? Who and what do you really want to be?

[Miler]

overrnbw,

That's a fair enough question(s). I'm not quite sure it's a simple as "fell back into unproductive behaviors." I'm not sure we actually addressed anything to begin with. We both turned to each other one day and felt like we couldn't be without one another, despite the fact that we were both dating other people. We spent some time together and realized we loved each other after being separated for a few months. Our connection at that time was getting past the hurt, being with one another again, and piecing our relationship (it was like the honeymoon phase all over again). We were connected because we were fighting against something together (and against the people we, now looking back, mistakenly dated to make ourselves feel better). We both have unproductive behaviors that were never truly addressed. I still have plenty to work on, that have contributed to the ups and downs of the past 20 years. But this brings me to your questions...

"What's different for you this time" is rather easy to answer. I never truly understood what she meant by "being more engaged." I essentially was going through the motions. I thought it meant do more around the house, help out with the kids more, do more things the family likes rather than sports and work, go on more dates, spend more time together. Well, we did those things...however, what was missing was me. I wasn't fully there. My attention was divided with work, my phone, being in my head, not having meaningful conversation, etc. She wants to be with me fully, not just around me more. She wants me to ask more questions about her, be interested in her and what's she up to...not just update me when I get home. That's different. Whether I was ignorant or just didn't see clearly (which now it's pretty clear, AND it's something I can do). I've recently read Love Languages for Men, I Hear You, and Eight Dates and I get it.

"Who do I really want to be"... that seems like it is ripe with philosophical rhetoric. I am who I am. I'm wired the way I'm wired. I run a laboratory on human cognition and am fairly certain that we can't truly change the DNA of "who we are." Personality characteristics are fairly well established in the late teens (granted yes through experiences as well as genetics), the frontal lobes of the brain (last maturating area) are fully maturated between 22 and 25, and decades of literature shows attempts to change fundamental likes, dislikes, personality, etc. in adults is not genetically possible (which is why results of psychotherapy trials are very seldom positive). NOW, can I change how I interact with the world, my spouse, my children, others, and make better decisions/choices when it comes to who and how I give my attention...you bet! Absolutely! Can I break free of some of the anxiety that comes along with trying new experiences with my wife, you bet! I would love to be more vulnerable, more open about my thoughts, feelings, and desires. I would love for my wife to be able to influence me without always feeling like I have to be right. I would love to find simple ways to let her know that I cherish her and everything she brings to the relationship. So change who I am, nah. I think she likes/loves who I am...that's who, and why, she was attracted to in the first place. I can't change the fact that I love sports, I love my job, and I don't like wearing slacks. However, I can most certainly change the way I make her feel, through showing her I love her, letting her feel validates and heard, spending truly undivided quality time with her, making her a priority, and...putting down sports, work, and jeans every once in a while.

Yes, I'm truly sorry I didn't have that skills set 20 years ago...and even 5 years ago. But, I am working hard to change THAT. I want that for me, my wife, my kids, my parents, and the people I love now and down the road.