Rocky Road 2

[SteveLW]

I think she's in a little bit of shock, and it certainly waiting to see if the bottom falls out of this. She either feels like these are too big of changes or I can't make them permanent. .

If this is what you really want and how you feel then make them permanent. This isn't a game, it really is retraining how we love our significant other. If we just go through the motions it won't last and why we got in this place.

THIS ^^^^^^^^

I am now nearly 15 months into my emotional makeover as a H. It took her weeks to embrace my changes, month to fully trust them. There were lots of tests along the way.

I love the sandi rule that says to stay consistent and not regress on your hard earned changes. Dr. Phil says that 1 cross word can undo 1000s of compliments. Make sure you have changed at the root level, and not just put a fresh coat of paint on the exterior.

[Miler]

Quick update:

So yesterday was a good day. There was a noticeable openness about her. I am unsure whether it is easier to detach and GAL when she is open (because this is what healthy relationships do) or whether I'm just feeling more confident that she's not leaving, so it's easier for me to self-differentiate and GAL. Either way, it's a 180...I'm not dependent on her or what she's doing for the day for my happiness or mood. I know as soon as I wake up that I'm doing me, and hopefully she'll join my sphere.

I'll tell you, Coach's suggestions aren't just what ladies find attractive, but also a huge part of GAL. Once per day I am accomplishing something to do with the house (replaced a damaged baseboard yesterday, put magnet cabinet closures on the cabinets that sway open on their own today...tomorrow, I'm resealing the grout in the kitchen where water deteriorates it behind the sink), something to do with my health (I'm either going to the gym or running every day), and something with one of the kids (yesterday I played a board game with S11 after his homework...D18, S16, and W joined in later after dinner because me and S11 were having so much fun, today I'm going to S16's track practice). I'm almost certain because of my constant busy-ness and focus on me/external things, W if taking interest in what I'm doing and how I'm doing.

Last night before bed we were both complaining how cold we were, I jokingly said...you know, I may jump in the bath to warm up my feet and toes! She said, that sounds like a fantastic idea! We sat in the tub together and I just held her for a bit. I had no expectations where that would lead. Ultimately, it didn't lead anywhere...but I can assure you, in the past, I may have made her feel pressured or guilty for not having sex after a close moment like that. I actually offered to give her time by herself in the tub, which she did. I started reading in bed and by the time she came out, she started just talking to me...had small talk and went to bed. I also noticed we've started taking turns every night for who says good night first.

This morning, she was very talkative, and not just small talk. She was asking my opinion about some family matters, some work stuff, and just having conversations about what's going on in each other's life. It's just so different...it's like she's not afraid to talk to me any more. This was a HUGE issue for me. I would always try to have an answer, a fix, or dominate her in conversation. I'm sure it'll take a while before everything feels permanent or like the new normal. I will most certainly keep up my end of the deal .

Some very small signs of thawing on showing affection. Yesterday before I went to the gym, she blew me a kiss on the way out of the door. Today when she saw me at the gym, she ran her hand up my leg. I have been trying to focus on 2 touch charges a day. She seems to be much more receptive to them that she was previously. I have to continue this with no expectations.

Note for LBS spouses that seems to be working for me:
1) detach (better called self-differentiation). I think it's a domesticated belief that it's not safe or healthy for spouses to have freedom. B.S. It's super healthy and seems to be working for me. Each of us can be who we are and do what makes us happy without needing the other person or worrying about what the other person thinks. Not detaching is a subconscious form of control...let it go.
2) Use the gift of time...never force it. I think you always need to examine your behavior and thoughts...why are you doing something??? Is it really to control S or you want things to happen quicker? Pain and anxiety usually makes this worse. Learn some techniques to reduce pain and anxiety. Giving some statement of gratitude always helped me. I am grateful for healthy and bright children, I'm grateful that my parents are still alive, I'm grateful that I have a job I am happy with, etc. I also have a journal that I look at every day...It give me words of affirmation, it lists Sandi' rules, and tips from this forum.
3) READ, REAd, and READ more...there are tons of self-help book that can help with 180s. I read all I can on LLs, how to communicate, how to have healthy relationships, etc.
4) Mirror your spouses behavior when it comes from the relationship. When spouse starts initiating conversations more, you start initiating some conversation IN PROPORTION. When spouse starts touching in affection, you start touching in affection IN PROPORTION. When spouse starts giving you a kiss, you start initiating a small kiss IN PROPORTION.

That's all for now. Honestly, it feels like we are reconciling, but just without the physical intimmccy and affection. Patience...right .

[Adam04]

Nice update Miler.

You are on the right path, and it's always good to take stock. This way you know what works and to keep at it, and in the event something doesn't work, you know what you may need to tweak.

[Miler]

Quick update:

Things continue to progress in a positive direction. It's slow, but it's moving forward. We are having much more conversation. She is always warm, open, and engaged...which is different than what's it's ever been. We decided to go our for a couple of beers on Friday night. We ate dinner with the kids, then went to a new bar. We sat at the bar and had great conversation. She opened up about a couple of books she's reading, then about anxiety related to some new technology she's having to use at work. It's getting easier guys!!! My need to fix it for her or tell her it's all going to be ok had slid into the background. I simply validate how it is scary with new technology and that leads to a vulnerable 20 minute conversation. It's really connective on my end...not sure how connected she feels, but I don't need to know. It's not her job to make me happy.

I have been increasing the number of touch charges..maybe 3-4 per day. She's now a bit responsive, though she has yet to initiate one. As i was leaving the gym yesterday, she gave me a high five...at that point she actually held my hand for a second. Last night before bed, she rolled over and said goodnight and briefly put her hand on my thigh. That's definitely the extent of her initiating physical engagement.

This morning, we got up early to take D18 to the airport for her spring break trip with her class. When we got in the car, she said, we should go grab breakfast before heading home. I said absolutely. We had a great breakfast and I let her just talk about her family (we also briefly discusses a new work opportunity for me). When we got home, I felt myself feeling a little needy (not so much needy as much as looking to her for affirmation and affection). As soon as I had that feeling, I started one of my house projects (ripping out the old starting to rot flower box on the front of the house). She asked if I wanted to go to the gardening store with her, but I told her I wanted to go to the gym before it got crowded on Sunday afternoon. I need to self-differentiation time. I just got back and wanted to update. Now back to the house.

We haven't had anything close to a R talk since last MC. We go again tomorrow, so I will likely get an update on her feelings and reactions. Last session was interesting to say the least regarding her noticing my changes, etc.

[Miler]

OK, MC dump here...

I'll bullet for easy digest, then spit out a few thoughts.

- W says we've had wonderful connective quality time over last 2 weeks, very different from past
- W says she sees the changes in me that she's always wanted. I'm very different, but she's confused that 1) it's come "all of a sudden" (MC said she didn't think this was the case, as she saw changes in me since 2015 BD) and 2) that if I could change that easily and all of a sudden, why didn't I do this 5 years ago, or in 2002 when we had our first separation
- MC said this is a common phenomenon, that BD is equivalent to Dr telling you you need triple bypass surgery, guys change their lifestyle (smoking, eating, exercise) all the time with big events like BD
- MC asked me how things were different now compared to 10 weeks ago. I said I missed words of affirmation or physical touch from her (we did 5 LL with MC in the not so distant past).
- W said she knows this a problems and what I need to feel loved from her. She reiterated what she said last week, that she's super fearful that physicality between us will just sweep all the changes under the rug and not address the real stuff we need to work on. She also said that in some respects, she is "digging her heels in because she's given me what I've wanted or needed for the last 20 years, and she needs to focus on making herself happy and not making me happy."
- MC said that she can understand this and validated her feelings. However, she felt like it was unfair to me and said we both need to compromise... she needed to give me some signs of affection and I needed to give her the space to figure herself out
- W admitted that she's in a place where she felt like she' lost who she truly is and wants to get back to a place where she feels she is true to herself.
- W said she loves me very much and want to figure her out and us out simultaneously.
- MC told her she felt like while the M problems have certainly contributed to her feelings of losing herself, but that this was also common when losing a child (foster child), launching one to college in 4 months, and another one 20 months behind. She's been in the caretaker/mother roll for so long, now she needs to adjust to new reality.

MC ended session saying that we need to "love each other with words" for right now, that things seem to have stabilized, this is very manageable, and we've overcome bigger obstacles. For homework, she encouraged me to be patient with the process, give W the time to figure herself out with all the new changes, but to not lose the tether of love and to keep showing her I love her by telling her and touching her, etc. She told W that she needs to cut herself some slack, needs to lean into the R and work slowly into external signs of love. It ended feeling positive and that we could do this.

I left the session with all sorts of emotions...anger, hope, impatience, and anxiety. We didn't say anything on the 15 minute car ride home. Given all of my emotions, I didn't want to come off as pouty, cold, resentful, or anxious. I certainly didn't want to have any more R talk...lit was heavy again today in MC. So, I interacted with the boys for a bit, and said, I think I'm going to head to the coffee shop and get some work done, and then run a couple of errands (I'm going to look a couple of Jui-Jitsu gyms in the area). She looked at me with a little bit of a confused or upset look, then said Ok, and then smiled. She then said she was going to go to yoga today.

Should I have handled that differently? I couldn't be around her with the swirling emotions I had and I didn't want any R talk. I think space after a heavy session like that is good for both of us. Would greatly appreciate any feedback on the session or my pulling away a bit after.

Hope everyone is well!

[Ready2Change]

It sound to me like it was good. You listened. You hear her.

Keep focused on your positive changes.

[SteveLW]

You handled it PERFECTLY!! Remember, one of the big rules of DBing is to do NOTHING rather than the wrong thing. And GAL is PERFECT for this. When you are spinning. When your emotions are out of control. "I am going out." is a perfect redirect. I know for me it was "I am going to make holes with bullets in paper targets." That did two things. It got me away from her with my emotions spinning. And it allowed me to blow off some steam that in and of itself helped me to stop spinning.

Miler you got this! Just be patient. Another big rule in DBing is to be patient. Let the process work.

[Miler]

Been a while since an update. Not much has changed on my part. GALing like crazy. I've started Ju-Jitsu 3 days a week, working my tail off on the house, playing baseball and golf with the boys, and reading a ton.

Tuesday, my wife started a R talk. Very interesting. She says, "You're different. I love your changes, but recently you seem to be doing a lot of stuff by yourself and staying busy." I said, tell me more... She said I feel like your attitude towards me is different. I say, I certainly am not doing anything intentional. I'm sorry you are feeling that way. She said that she feels like I have pulled away. I said I haven't pulled away, but I have been focusing on myself and the changes I need to make. She asked what some of those changes are... I told her the things I have been working on, including not depending on her or the R for my happiness. She was a little miffed, and stated that over the last 20 years I had pulled away at various points in the R and she continued to fight. She said that she has pulled away for 2 months and a bit and I wasn't being patient with her. I told her that in fact I was being patient, but I also wasn't just going to sit around the house and wait for her to tell me when we were in the reconciliation process. There were some really good conversation, and there were some bad moments. She acknowledged that even the process of talking about the R was different...I seemed more calm about it. I said I was sorry for my part of the negative parts of the dialogue. She said no need to apologize, overall she felt we made a lot of progress on things.

Then again, Thursday night, she picked up my phone, then put it down and walked in the bedroom. When I went up to bed, she immediately said, you've started to systematically remove me from your life haven't you! I asked why she felt that way. Well, I used to have this sexy picture of her as the wallpaper of my iphone. It was her sitting in this big steel clawfoot tube from a weekend away we had. It reminded me of her and our romantic times every time I looked at it. So, I changed it to a pic of the 3 kids from our last vacation. Well, I guess she saw that I changed the picture and was very upset by this. She said she also saw on my amazon account (she must be doing a little snooping or come across it by accident) that I purchased a book called, This Is Me Letting Go, and another called, "I Wish I Read This Before My Divorce" She accused my of slowing walking a divorce and systematically removing her from my life. I said, W, please understand that I am trying to become a healthy individual by reading all I can about relationships, including a big problem I have with attachment to the R. I needed to let my grip go a tad regarding the relationship, and frankly our M as we know it would be very different should we reconcile. I confirmed to her that I had ZERO plans of divorce. She said maybe she was being very selfish (I didn't say a word here), but AGAIN repeated that she went through all sorts of pain and had a ton of resentment over the last 20 years, and that I could be patient for 2+ months. I acknowledged that I did have difficulty with patience, but that I wasn't going anywhere. She continued to press and it got confrontational. I did break down and say that there was also a part of me that was preparing for the worst. She had left me twice before, and I didn't want to be caught off guard if she did that again (really referring to detaching). She sorta broke down and gave me insight into all sorts of things she was dealing with. That she had to get over the pain and resentment and "sludge" but she didn't know how. She said her classic MO is to dig into something else (like the kids or work) and not deal with the pain. I validated how painful the last 20 years have been for her and that she needed to find herself again. I also said that I would be there to help and support her as much as possible, but that I couldn't fix her or the problem and I wouldn't try like I had in the past. She thanked me for that...Then in the next breathe said "How do I know this is real? You've been saying all the things I've wanted to hear over the last 20 years. Why now? And how does she know that I'm not just saying those things because I know it's what she wants to hear?" I said that there was nothing I could say to make her trust and believe in the changes. I would continue to try and be better, continue to change as a lifelong process, but I was also sure that I'd screw up in the future too. I then made the mistake of saying, "So where does this leave things?" I wanted to hear here process more or give me some direction in the ways I could be there or even give her more space. She said...see, that's part of the old Miler...you always need some expectation or timeline or certainty in every situation. I told her that's not what I what I was expecting. I got upset and told her that I some point she needed to give me the benefit of the doubt. We maybe exchanged 2-3 more sentences. I said I was going downstairs to get some water and cool off before things went in a negative direction (always feel like 2 steps forward, 1 step back). When I got back upstairs, she asked if I minded that we watched Sound of Music (she knows I hate that movie). I said, absolutely, it's been a heavy day. She said, yes, but I feel like I got a ton of stuff off my chest. She also admitted that she got a little scared because for a couple of minutes it felt like the old us. I validated and said some very kind words about supporting her journey and continuing to work on myself. She grabbed my hand and curled into me as we fell asleep watching Sound of Music.

Yesterday went very well. We connected about some things around the house, built something together, and then went to Top Golf with the boys for a couple of hours. We had a blast. We laughed, we danced together, we were very supportive as we each hacked at a few shots. Today was more of that...working on the house. I went to the gym by myself, we watched a little basketball together, then she took off for the gym. I don't anticipate any more R talks and only positive interaction before MC on Monday. Also D18 comes home tomorrow night!

[Miler]

MC update:

Yeah, so, this is going to take some time. Nothing major...I probably said 20 words the whole session. W focused on what she was working on.
- Listening and trusting her internal voice and instinct
- Taking time for herself and allowing herself to be selfish
- Healing from emotional pain over the last 20 years

MC requested that I listen to her story and subtle ways that she is "reinforcing" the changes I/we have made (e.g., by her opening up more and being vulnerable means she feels safer around me and trusts me with her thoughts and feelings." She requested that W lean into the relationship more and "love me with words." Reinforced that W is scared of physical intimacy because it has been used and a band-aid or mask in the past. W says she feels like we have everything a marriage has, minus the sex... I didn't disagree, but my internal voice was screaming "BS!!!" We have no words of affirmation or non-sexual physical affection. Some days I feel like a very close friend.

I'm working on my patience for sure. GALing like crazy, detaching, emotionally separating myself from the R. Some days I feel like I'd be just fine by myself if this R ended. Some days I good with that feeling, other days I'm not.

Interesting that she was getting wigged out last week that I might be leaving her...

[SteveLW]

Miler, in my experience, when she starts to noticing you moving on it is a good thing. It means you are doing GAL and detaching correctly. Keep up the good work. Most WASs don't like the feeling of loss of control so they start to try to manipulate you back to attachment. Just listen. Then validate. Then GAL and detach like a madman!