Oh shoot, I didn't see your new thread and I posted to the previous thread.
Great, that sounds good.
Regarding your question about how often we check other board members' threads, I was on the board nearly all the time I wasn't at work or asleep. I think it's fairly common for newcomers. Eventually, it begins to taper off. I've read where some people have to take a break b/c it's depressing for them to read about all the misery. Personally, I think it's a good idea if you find it affecting you negatively more than it's helping.
These days, I mostly reply to H's who have a wayward W. There are a few reasons for that decision, and I won't bother to explain, only that I feel I can be more helpful due to my personal experience and studies about WW's. Even then, I can't keep up with the same amount that I once was able to do. I find myself having to go back over the thread just to refresh my memory. Ugh!
So, don't feel you must read every sitch/thread. Don't feel that you have to check every day. If you are spending more time on the board than you are spending GAL or with your family.........I would suggest you set so many minutes for board time, and then shut it off and go join people IRT. Remember, balance, balance, balance. Your goal should be to not get extreme on anything.
Last edited by Cadet; 03/20/1908:19 PM. Reason: moved post here
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Re the present, maybe not use those words on the card , ask one of the ladies to come up with something. Go small but VERY thoughtful on the present. IMO
Tomorrow is W birthday at MIL. Still distant in conversation with W unless trival, superficial, or logistical matters.
Like "How was your day" " Oh I can't believe they sold that house across the street" "Look at that plane" (her being positively pleasant for the sake of) , etc... I've stopped initiating any convo, unless it is a matter to be addressed. She can live in silence forever in front of just me and S when we are alone for all I care. But she will put on a good people pleasing front in front of others despite everyone now knowing we are seperating. (I find it to be phony of her character) Then will say I'm rude at family affairs for being quiet, and not engaging in conversation with her as third-party and other people. One on one im fine with everyone else making small talk.
I will presumably wind up being quiet, (which is far from my typical nature) in front of W and family, and not because of In Laws. In laws are great. I just feel like a failure and disappointment when I'm with W around family, even my own I clam up with W there. (Again not typically like me at all.
I can put on a pleasant front if i need to, and switch gears if I will it or feel like it, and man up and be happy for the sake of our S. But I'm not really one to conceal my emotions or thoughts, happy or sad.
The more I learn about emotional regulation, and the traits BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder) and Histrionic Personality Disorder. I am shocked at how many attributes I have displayed in emotional context, behavior and thinking.
I don't know if i should attend or not, because I don't want to play family with someone who will be separating from me, and is emotionally unavailable. On the other hand, she is a behaviorist, and im not necessarily mind reading here, but I think she knows to be emotionally unavailable to me to regain and protect her sence of self. Because all R talks we have had in last 6 months usually has a time limit result of her shutting down the convo and her emotions. Sources on BPD may have directed her to go NC on me, since she realizes I may be gauging for a reaction in every little thing I do or don't do.
I am fascinated with self differention, relationships, and other characteristics, but also confusing me as well as what the right decision is.
MIL is aware I may or may not show up. I decided to do something nice but not grandiose, and am planning picking up custom cake and leaving presents there with card for her. (My 180 from past)
Should I go? Shouldnt I go? What is best? I know some say here to "Stop playing family" and others say take every opportunity to spend time with family and Spouse every chance you get. Leading to more confusion.
What do you guys think from a healthy emotional and psychological perspective?
My flawed (and easily influenced) thinking sometimes is. If she wants space, give her space, if she wants silence, or emotionally ignore me, then give her silence, or short polite scarce superficial responses, if she wants to seperate, then I'm going to act like it, by possibly not attending family functions. If she wants to ask how was my day, I will answer. Sometimes I ask how was hers, sometimes I don't just out of principle. If she wants to sit in front of me for 4 hrs and only interact with S. Im fine with that. If i make funny playful comments with son or what s on tv, sometimes she laughs, sometimes she completely ignores. To me its a mind "F$!#" game, to her its probably preservation of self.
But I can't help but question my own sanity. Like am I being perceived as rude or manipulative in doing what I am doing from a healthy psychological perspective? One thing is for sure. Need to keep busy for me, get out of house when not watching S1 and talk with family and people that understand and appreciate candidacy, since she no longer does.
I could probably 180 everything on her list, and it wouldn't have any impact. Im done attaching feelings, self worth, and psychological integrity to someone that doesn't want me. On the other hand, I understand why for her for a lot of different reasons, some which may have to do with me in the marriage, and some reasons that don't. She has her own work to do.
My flawed (and easily influenced) thinking sometimes is. If she wants space, give her space, if she wants silence, or emotionally ignore me, then give her silence, or short polite scarce superficial responses, if she wants to seperate, then I'm going to act like it, by possibly not attending family functions.
When you act these ways, you appear punitive. If you can't be sociable at your W's birthday party, then don't attend. How awkward for your in-laws, if you sit silently and refuse to participate.......thinking you are really showing your W a thing or two!
You cannot balance, Robert. Why would you have a custom cake made, with a birthday card from you.....just to leave for her, and not attend the party? Talk about a "mind "F$!#" game"......you seem to be very good at it. You say the cake would be a 180 degree, but then you ruin the 180 by leaving the cake and not attending the party....or attending but acting quiet and not socializing much. Your decision to act cold and give her the silent treatment destroys the efforts you put into the 180. I'm not telling you to go or not go. I'm saying the two actions don't agree. Having a custom cake, with a nice BD card.......and then purposely refusing to attend the birthday party your in-laws are having......don't match. If you were female, I would think you were trying to steal the spotlight on your W's birthday. That's how it looks. However, I really think you are having trouble balancing some of the things you've read.
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If she wants to ask how was my day, I will answer. Sometimes I ask how was hers, sometimes I don't just out of principle. If she wants to sit in front of me for 4 hrs and only interact with S. Im fine with that. If i make funny playful comments with son or what s on tv, sometimes she laughs, sometimes she completely ignores. To me its a mind "F$!#" game, to her its probably preservation of self.
Sometimes you don't ask how her day was......just out of principle? What principle would that be?
That last sentence is so, so sad. Like I tried to tried you in your previous thread, these actions are not working for you. What do you suppose would happen if you stopped with the punitive behavior?
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But I can't help but question my own sanity. Like am I being perceived as rude or manipulative in doing what I am doing from a healthy psychological perspective? One thing is for sure. Need to keep busy for me, get out of house when not watching S1 and talk with family and people that understand and appreciate candidacy, since she no longer does.
Well all we have is what you've shared, and from your own posts you sound like there are times you are rude, and I don't know about manipulative.......but you seem to want to inflict pain on your W, or at least, make her sorry she ever thought about leaving you. Personally, I don't see that being healthy for anyone.
Maybe your W is too sensitive to your "candid" way of talking.....especially when speaking to her. Everyone is not raised in a family that speaks bluntly, and with little care of how it hurts the listener. Maybe you think she should toughen up and get use to it. Maybe she can't. Maybe she tries, but still gets offended. Then what do you do? Never talk to her? I don't know what the answer is for the two of you, I only know what you are currently doing is not working.
You've written about how the two of you are different. What are some things you both enjoy? What attracted to her to you?
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I could probably 180 everything on her list, and it wouldn't have any impact. Im done attaching feelings, self worth, and psychological integrity to someone that doesn't want me.
Interesting statement. Why would you attach self worth and psychological integrity to another person?
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It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I have stopped with the punitive behavior. I have been polite and mostly positive when I come home everyday for 4 months. I put my phone away, I spend time with S1, I ask interactive questions. Im going to go to party tomorrow. She said "it would be nice" in a matter of fact" tone. I have tried and tried and tried to even just make light conversation without pursuing. "How was your day?" "Anything interesting happen today?" "What's going on at work?" "How's your folks?" "Does our son need anything?" "Are you feeling ok, you look runned down?"
I'm acting positive around her. Jokes brushed off, little response, ignored to phone and tv. Sometimes I have to repeat myself 3 times if asking a question, and I get constant excuses, "Sorry im zoned out today. "Sorry I have my period" "Sorry I had to restrain that kid at work today" While all legitimate reasons, still very avoidant and only conversed with me when necessary. I know not all, but most of the time its intentional, because S1 gets smothered by her now. Gets all the laughs, attention, conversation, the constant ILY'S, now she's calling him babe, the happy tonality, interactions, and smiles. All after myself getting the same ignored treatment, monotoned resposes, and neutral modality. The TV and FB gets more laughter and attention then I do. So rather than overstay my welcome, I go off and do my own thing in thr house or spend time with S1.
Now before anyone goes off on here calling me insecure, needy, craving for attention, jealous of my my child and stuff like that. Im telling everyone, I know what I am experiencing and seeing, and the behavior change torwards me in last 3 months is crystal clear. I'm not that emotionally obtuse. She will put on a good and pleasing act in front of company though. Im telling you there is unresolved unrelying resentment there. Subtle but unresolved on her part.
So the other night, she needed a hand changing S1, I was in the middle of peeing. She got disappointed I couldn't help her fast enough. I calmly told her I was peeing, and then helped her, then asked her. "What are you going to resent me for the rest of your life because I was peeing?" She said YES!!!
I know I have my emotion stress triggers which contributed to down fall of MR amongst a list of other perceived bad habits and behaviors, but I am not intentionally being punitive, and 180 the bad ones the best I can. I am clearly being ignored, brushed off, avoided, and emotionally gaurded by her even just for a few laughs. Sometimes it doesn't even,phase me because I've gotten so used to it past couple of months. Other times it just pisses me off, and makes me feel stuck. I don't show it, but none the less. Im not asking her to return to the marriage, its inevitable that we seperate in the months to come. I can't change that, or her, or her decision, and im ok with it at times, and other times the thought of starting over of course saddens me, pisses me off, etc. But hell, im just asking for a friendly positive conversation. One that isn't superficial, or short responsed.
Now I know I know....Focus on you, GAL, control the things you have control over like yourself, don't let someone else's response to you affect your happiness, let it roll off your shoulders, like water on a ducks back, have no expectations, believe half of what they do and none of what they say, detach, etc...
So where is the balance? What the hell am I supposed to do? (Not directed at anyone here, and appreciate all your help, time and input..just frustrated.) I'm not pursuing, haven't been for a while, haven't brought up R talks. She has no problem expressing enthusiasm over idea of new potential apartment, new growth ideas, new hobbies, etc...to me. Its all about her. I guess she has been selfless for so long, she's finally putting herself first in every aspect.
Even if I can stay consistently detached, shift my focus totally to myself, NC, etc. build myself up, have fun, be positive, etc. I don't think it will have any impact. Im not necessarily looking for a reaction from her, but if avoiding someone is rude, and being pleasant is pursuit, then where is the middle ground for what works? As if I was treating this as not only a change for myself but an objective social experiment. Any advice?
Now I know im going to sound like I'm making broad and sweeping generalizations again. Just a reoccurring thought. I know Men and Women get divorced for a multitude of different reasons. Abuse, neglect, personality mismatch, musunderstandings, affairs, MLC, outside influences, inside influences, habits, behaviors, just for the hell of it?
At the risk of looking for something to blame, and sounding like a conspiracy theorist, there must be solid reason(s) either due to degradatoon of familial breakdown, personality conflict, spiritual and religious degradation, social, pop culture, or other media programming and influences, why statistically 70% of women in America in Western culture initiate divorce, over 30% of Men. This isn't meant to take a jab at the ladies, and my heart just wants to hug every lady that is an LBS on here that has to deal with Men cheating, MLC, or just wanting to leave their marriage just because... Marriage is supposed to be holy and sacred, not legal. Non religious people may disagree with me here and that's fine. But there has to be multiple significant reasons of bad programming why divorce is pervasive in the West. Any debaters or opinions on the topic is welcome.
IHC, I've often said that marriage is to easy to get into, and too easy to get out of. I think if we go back to stricter laws about what one had to do to get married, and only allowing at fault divorces and things would change.
Another interesting stat, divorce is almost non-existent in cultures with arranged marriages. Makes you think, doesn't it?
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I have a question for LH19 as far as co- mingling and parenting. But first I wanted to share a little familial history and establish mindsets on the different dynamics between my W and my own family regarding the subject of divorce. The thing is neither one of our families really believe in Divorce, however we both have different experiences with it within our families.
W's side of family W's Aunt has been divorced from ex husband because of him cheating over 35 years ago. However Aunt and her XH are friends, and XH still attends all family affairs amicably with his new W and everyone gets along just fine.
The Aunt has just recently remarried after 35 years. The Aunt had a best friend for over 30 years ago from nursing school. The Aunt interestingly enough, remarried her now former best friend's XH. Her now ex best friend was somewhat of a toxic person. The Aunt recently married her ex best friend's XH a year after he was divorced, and they started dating. The Aunt is now married to him as of this past year.
As of this last month, my BIL, W's youngest sibling, was married for a year, and is now seperated after just buying a house. His W BD'd him 2 months after my W BD'd me.
Also for years, but even more so now. My W has been hanging out with my youngest brother's ex GF from 7 years ago, who is now also recently divorced. After having a special needs child, her XH was somewhat neglecting according to her.
This is probably where my W gets her presumptions that I am willing to attend all family functions, and continue to be involved amicably even though we are to be seperated in future. Her family members love me unconditionally and wants me around for occasions in future.
I will elaborate on our discussion which occurred on her birthday 2 days ago, further down the paragraphs.
As far as my family. My older brother is the only immediate family member of mine to experience a very nasty, hostile and turbulent divorce, where my XSIL was mentally ill. Both parties were ruined from the family courts, physically injured from authorites, custodial battles for 15 years, etc. My nieces are grown now. My oldest estranged brother's W is the sister of my other brother's XW. All of this has caused great tension for many reasons over the last 30 years. My oldest brother's W seperated from him 16 years ago, has had 2 MLC's and was experiencing "the grass is greener effect" on both occasions.
When my W and I were first married, she picked my two nieces as flower girls, but wanted there Mom, my older brother's XW present at the wedding to care for my nieces, to alleviate my W responsibility of caring for them, since they were a bit wild then. My family and myself were adamant about not having my brother's XW there because of the hostility. Futhermore, my oldest brother, W and kids were invited, but not the sister. None the less when it came to family photo time, I was on edge, and not present that day because, for other reasons, and also because of my father who was an instigator. But I know that I can only control me, and shouldn't have to apologize for anyone.
My W's family pushed to have the ex at our wedding, and me and my family pushed to not invite her. Although our families never spoke to one another about this, they used my W and I as go betweens to make a decision. Thus caused great tension between us early on. My family are also very dysfunctional co dependant, very disgustingly disorganized, and lack healthy life skills. They are the "misery loves company" types. Supportive in convo, but not heakthyin lifestyle. Lack of vision and growth. So I have no support system for change, and an going at new life. Nor can I fall back to live with them temporarily nor would I want to.
So here we have two different beliefs and exoeriences as far as family's perspective. We don't believe in divorce according to we are raised. Also I might mention my W is Protestant and somewhat Liberal, and had a GM and GF in ministry. I am currently a non practing Catholic, but have deep biblical beliefs. have become very conservative about politics and spirituality over the years. Especially with divorce. I don't believe in it. Period. Although. I have blurted it many times before out of frustration in the MR when living habits would collide frequently. My mistake.
So my W isn't taking D off the table and would like a few years of space, time, counciling, and healing to work out her feelings, re-develop her sence of self again, and pursue her newly found goals, fantasies, dreams, lifestyles, self growth and possibly other relationships. She is no longer romantically attracted to me. But who cares at this point.
We have had many traumatic events occur with both our families over past 1p years. Divorce, suicide, ill family members, deceased members, financial struggles, dynamics changing, members moving away, etc. You know. Life. We have also had a lot of dynamic issues inside MR with careers, finances, housing, child rearing, etc. She seems to equate all this to our marriage, even though the events stem from both sides. Its no wonder they go into fight or flight mode.
Now onto the other night after W's bday. I got a very appreciative thank you, recognition for real thoughtfulness and consideration, got a hug, and a long discussion last night with her initiating and doing ALL THE TALKING, where I just shut up, validated and listened, and literally did none of the talking.
We haven't talked, or she hasn't showed me any emotion or discussion in last 2month or so, and we have been somewhat avoiding each other living in IHS for about 2 months. BD was 6 months ago. Over the last 2 months since IHS we only discuss logistics, and financials, avoiding any inter-personal discussions. I have now held back in revealing anything personal, since it won't get reciprocated emotionally anyway. Just validated by her. She has been emotionally closed off until birthday, has dropped individual MC, and is now looking for new LSCW IC.
The post birthday convo was somewhat amusing because beteeen her pausing, in convo, I wouldnt say anything, and just look at her as if she had something else to say, and she would go right along talking without me having to say or ask anything. (Not reading into it.) But I want to explain the context of the convo, and I have a question regarding co-parenting and family affairs.
The context of the convo was her expressing real gratitude and sincerity for the bday presents, and card (The theme was relating to her new future life seperated.) (She wants to grow saffron and lavendar, start a micro farm, and live in a tiny home) She also expressed the same concern I had earlier in the month about where she is going to live, how we are both overwhelmed how we are going to purge all the stuff in our current home, fix the house, get it on the market and sell it.
She started to grasp the realities and her feelings about being a single mom, and how scary its going to be for her, how she will be responsible for more, how she won't be protected, and how she is going to have to do a lot of things on her own, be somewhat lonely, but then transitioned to on how she is going to see me every other day with the exchange of our S1.
This is where it gets interesting....
Because I attended her Bday at MIL, got the cake, presents, and everything, (My 180 from past exp.)
She went on to express how in the future, I could be present at all her family occasions. She was actually asking me if I wanted to accompany her and my son to go to the beach next week, on a weekday, despite me having to work, and and having a lot of current money issues. I declined for obvious reasons. She has always done things like this in past inside MR, not realizing my own needs for work, and assuming availability. She went on to mention that I can still go on vacation, and hang out with her relatives, and this seperation can be an amicable one where I can always be involved with her, and her family lives unconditionally. with her relatives, MIL, FIL, etc, and still hang out and maintain relations. She was forecasting, romanticizing, and assuming how I am always going to still be there, under the context of for our son, but still seperated. She illustrated the difference between her mindset and my mindset from our families experiences. I said nothing and just acknowledged and validated. She also keeps verbally romanticizing and forecasting in her mind how much of an emotional mess she is going to be the day our house is sold, and we go our separate ways. I asked her why? She said because its saying goodbye to all our hopes, dreams, and start of our family. So I just listened.
Other than important occasions involving S1 I don't know how I feel about this with her foreshadowing those expectations with family events in future. I love her family members, and wouldn't mind hanging out with them without my W at all. They are great people. But from my perspective. How is anyone suppose to heal if they are constantly going to family occasions along with their WAW or STBXW just like they were before as if they were married?
I wouldn't mind attending important functions on occsision. But my mentality is what is the point of even seperating then?
So sorry for the long familial history, but what I am trying to figure out is. Was she telling me all this and being nice because of her sincere appreciation, because she is emotionally opening herself up again? Or is it because of her family's experience with these kinds of circumstsnces. Or is it because, she hasn't fully let go, and would still like to keep me around at an arms length distance after seperation?
I obviously haven't cracked the fog, but I wonder if she was temp checking, and if I am just starting to detach, maybe she sensed I'm leaning into her life plans, and wanted to see if I would respond favorably to her? Sorry but I'm not Plan B nor will I ever be. Ill be there for the kid.. But that's it. But I didn't tell her that. I just listened. She's trying to paste her reality on top of mine.
I don't like the idea of playing family as if our M was still intact. I either want the M or not at all. Im not going to be her Gay BFF ex husband pursuing her post physical seperation if she gets the itch to hang out for some reason. She is my W to me still until those D papers are signed.
Not because the rings are off, not because she says ILYBNILWYA, not because of feelings that can be mislead, not because we are selling the house and dividing everything. Granted I don't trust her anymore for all these reasons. Sometimes I even ask myself why do I still want to make this work even though these sacred trusts have been breached?
So what do you guys think? Is she having second thoughts? Going off WAW script? Or is it familial conditioning and experience? Or is it parental cake eating? She is an unintentional cake eater.
Remember, balance, balance, balance. Your goal should be to not get extreme on anything.