Gekko - I have not read about PSO and NSO before, very interesting.
I bet NSO explains a lot of our situations on this forum. I feel like my W sees only negative things in me and our MR, and it's been that way for at least 8 months. When she started going to IC a few months back, she would periodically send me a bizarre text thanking me for going to work and making money for the family. Perhaps her counselor was encouraging her to try to see thing in a positive light to fight off the NSO. I don't know. It was weird. It definitely didn't work.
You are right about the harshness being a red flag. My W has turned very cold towards other people in her life, including her own family as well as mine. In many of these cases, I would say the relationships were not exactly healthy, but my W took things to extremes IMO. Very black and white. OTOH, she has had people in her life that give nothing, only take from her, yet she will keep them around.
Anyways, now I am that target you talk about. Throughout our 15 year history, targets have never turned things around with her. I'm giving her time and space and we'll see... really the NSO is what needs to change first. Which means I have absolutely zero control, and should just focus on me for now.
Idea for future relationships: Ask about their EX's. If somebody only has negative things to say about their EX, that is a red flag for me. I had issues with all my EX's, for various reasons, but they were all great women and I wish them the best. My W thinks all her EX's are crazy and/or abusive... hmmm...
Thanks for helping to clarify things for me -- I am positive about my own life, but hopeless about reconciliation, and I think this is a very strong reason why.
Hope the move goes well... I think you will enjoy the peace and space!
One of my go-to quotes right after BD was from the end of the movie Castaway when Tom Hanks said
"And I know what I have to do now. I gotta keep breathing. Because tomorrow the sun will rise. Who knows what the tide could bring?"
No one can know the specific details of their future, but you can know that no matter what, life will be beautiful if you make it so. Incredible things are on the horizon, though maybe you can't see them at the moment.
Just thinking about this now as I am reading through a lot of sitches here where people are understandably really struggling with mindset. PMA and GAL are so critical. And understanding that no, You Will Not Die. To the contrary, you will have a fantastic life, if you want one and make one for yourself.
PSO and NSO really explain why I ended up here in the first place. I knew my H was capable of cheating on people as he fathered his first child while he was engaged to someone else. At the time, I chalked it up to him being really young when all that happened but, in hindsight, it was a BIG indicator of his character. I also saw that he had a poor relationship with his dad but assigned most of the blame on his dad. I still feel like his dad has primary responsibility but I also see that my H could have changed the dynamic, at least his part in it, by approaching his dad like an adult and telling him how he felt. But he never did. For 14 years I watched them do their dance to both of their detriments. My H is deathly afraid of conflict and would rather not talk to someone for months than to tell them why he is upset or try to fix things. I mistakenly thought that was just a factor in his R with his dad but now I see that he approaches ALL of his relationships that way. His mom is the same way. She will never directly tell you when she is upset. Either she will find a way to just swallow it and move on as if nothing has happened OR she will address it in passive aggressive ways. i.e. If she is concerned the dog hasn't been fed, instead of asking directly if you fed the dog, she will look at the dog and ask, "Have they fed you yet?" so you will overhear. It is highly annoying. Nowhere has my H been role modeled how to approach things like an adult... "Hey... you really hurt me when you did that. Can we find a way to work it out?" That is completely foreign to him. He swallows things and keeps swallowing while he allows resentments to build. And when enough resentment has been built up, he uses it to justify lying, cheating and running away and makes it your fault. I am sad for him but happy I no longer have to live with it.
I also saw that my H had no problems with leaving longterm relationships and reinventing himself while leaving most of those relationships behind which explains why our sitch progressed as quickly as it did following BD. I'm sure if we did not have kids, I would NEVER hear from him. I loved him unconditionally for 14 years and would have moved mountains to try and work through things but he made sure I never had that option. For all intent and purposes, I am dead to him. That used to cause me such psychological pain but I now know it has nothing to do with me so it no longer bothers me. We share a history and children but that is about it and I am in a place where I accept it and can move forward holding my head up high. Anyway...my point is...there were definitely big red flags in my sitch and PSO definitely did not work in my favour. I'm sure most of us on here have had similar AHA moments looking back. The important thing is that we learn from it and try not to repeat mistakes in future relationships.
I am still thinking through the concepts of PSO and ignoring red flags. It seems like PSO doesn't involve ignorance but just relegates the other person's flaws/issues to something that is relatively inconsequential because you are feeling so good about the R. The good outweighs the bad by a lot.
As long as your spouse's pre-existing negative behavior doesn't change too much for the worse or their positive behavior stops, aka you are dealing with pretty much the same person and issues as early on in the R, then staying in PSO seems very doable and if you are out of PSO then getting back to it might not be too hard. The passage of time can certainly be a big factor in someone getting back into PSO. Looking back at the past through the rose-colored glasses of PSO seems kind of common. I have reinitiated R's in my past after some time and distance, where I was the one who ended things, because I saw things more clearly after some time and distance. I got back into PSO.
When someone's behavior gets worse, as in my case with my W's attacks, criticisms, snide comments, etc. - this can easily push you into NSO and that is huge trouble for the R. I was and still am in NSO regarding W. And she has been in NSO as to me for a looong time. I can do no right, basically. W can't even state why she married me.
I am still figuring things out but it feels like my being in NSO, while damaging to the R, is grounded in some really bad behavior by W that systematically killed my attraction to her and desire to even be around her. Who wants to be close to someone who always seems to have a poison dart firing at you?
I am working on getting out of NSO and just viewing things without that bias. All that really means for me is that I will be able to better acknowledge W's positive qualities despite her flaws. It will not wash away her flaws or make them less severe, they are bad and toxic and she needs a lot of work, and I am doubtful to ever get back into PSO without major change, but at least I will be out of NSO and find my equilibrium.
Kind of went down a rabbit hole there, and this thought process is playing waaay in the background as my new house, kids, career and GAL activities dominate the forefront. I am 9 months post BD and excited about the future.
I survived the move last weekend. Not cheap but money well spent to hire the movers. I still have some smaller items to split up with W but the big stuff is out and in my new place. Now the settling in process starts. Kids first night will be this Friday, they wanted it sooner but I need to get things set up for them.
Still trying to get a handle on my 180 to be less frosty to the W. I was just reading back through my threads - I think this is a good exercise - and pulled this timely nugget from AnotherStander:
It's never too late to do a 180. Whether you do a 180 the day after BD or 10 months after doesn't really matter because brother, you already got BD'd. So ANY 180 is an improvement, right?
I can and will get to where I need to be on this issue. Every interaction is a new opportunity to get it right. The only thing stopping me is me.
Gekko - It's hard work moving and getting a place set up for the kids in a short amount of time. Well done. I'm impressed you'll be ready in under a week!
There is a fine line between loving detachment and icy detachment. Especially when NSO is thrown into the mix. I don't know how you are planning to interact with your W going forward, but it's hard not be frosty when almost every interaction and conversation is purely logistical. Having awareness of the NSO in the first place will probably help you avoid passive-aggressiveness, etc.
I'm curious how you plan to interact with your W going forward (like, do you actually have a plan in mind for how often you will communicate, etc.)? It helped us a lot to implement a system. Weekly call with a pre-set agenda, weekly MC, sometimes we allow the other to video chat with the kids -- otherwise text only as needed for logistics. It's working about as well as I could expect, which is better than before.
I find the best opportunities to demonstrate changes are when we have conflict, in particular during our weekly phone chat. The rest of the week, other than MC, we barely interact other than text (and text is an awful way to communicate so I keep it to a bare minimum). MC feels like a bit of an artificial setup, we are not in our natural habitat so to speak, so I don't see it as the best way to demonstrate change.
It also helps when we talk that we always discuss in our phone chat how the kids are adjusting. Regardless of the chasm between us, we both obviously love our kids very much and take it seriously how they are adjusting. I am thankful that my W is not so stone-hearted that we are unable to talk about this.
Anyways... long-winded way of saying that even as co-parents you will have opportunities to work on your 180s. These may be different opportunities than before. It's good for your kids to try to model healthy behaviors for them (obviously you can't control your W but you can do the best you can). And obviously good for you.
I'm curious how you plan to interact with your W going forward (like, do you actually have a plan in mind for how often you will communicate, etc.)? It helped us a lot to implement a system.
No plan here yet other than communicate as infrequently and briefly as possible, LOL.
I suspect we will handle 90% of communication via a quick text once D is final. The kids have always had a pretty set schedule that runs fairly smooth, and we have childcare help from a local college girl, so W and I should only need to communicate regarding major schedule changes, serious behavioral issues and the like. I could see one or two texts a week for starters, then hopefully much, much less.
I suspect we will handle 90% of communication via a quick text once D is final. The kids have always had a pretty set schedule that runs fairly smooth, and we have childcare help from a local college girl, so W and I should only need to communicate regarding major schedule changes, serious behavioral issues and the like. I could see one or two texts a week for starters, then hopefully much, much less.
That's exactly how it went for me at first. Then XW more and more started reaching out for stuff she didn't need to, then asking if I wanted to go along on stuff she was doing with the kids. They back way off and then start moving closer again oh so slowly.
Just got through the first weekend with the kids in my new place, it was fantastic. They had already picked out their own bedroom sets and sheets/comforters, I involved them in the whole process. Over the next few weeks we will work on picking out stuff for their walls and I will be getting a few new pieces of furniture for the house and getting more art and pictures up throughout the house. I finally hung the flatscreen in the living room, it looks great. I lost about 1200 sq. ft in the move and am feeling it, but its okay, first-world problem....
The kids were outside constantly, playing with other kids on the street, I even let them out after dinner when we usually start winding things down. I'm no Disney Dad but I do want them to have fun and will certainly loosen things up on summer weekend nights. W runs a very tight ship - as my Aunt says W is very "rigid" - I am no pushover but know when to let out the leash a little. I think the kids are going to enjoy this neighborhood, including a community pool that is heated and is a gathering place that gets almost year-round use.
With the move, settling in, hanging with the kids, busy career, nights out with friends, gym, and other GAL stuff I have barely given W a thought. I really don't care what she's doing or with whom if anyone. I'm just too busy. When I think of a woman's touch it's not hers. I followed my moral compass and made zero efforts toward any OW during my 9 month IHS. But i'm out now, W fired me. So I'm working on my weak spots and making myself into an even better man, so something very very positive is coming out of my sitch. I will be a better man, and find myself with a better woman.
Everyone knows that old saying "Living Well is the Best Revenge". I'm not into the revenge thing, I don't care enough to seek it, I just want to be happy and it has nothing to do with anyone else being unhappy including W. I'm not saying i'm overtly wishing W happiness with some OM, i'm not there, i'm just for the most part indifferent at the moment. Revenge? Not part of the deal for me, so I prefer to just say "Living Well is the Best".
