This post should have been written months ago. Many reasons why not, some peculiar to me, many for the reasons often discussed here - fear, inertia, etc...
Why now? I’m not sure but to let it out perhaps. I tend to be very self-contained. Or maybe so others can read, just like I have been to others stories, and not feel alone like I did at first. I forget when I found this forum while googling for answers. Likely around DB2. The regulars through the years, the welcome post resources, Sandi’s rules, etc… have truly been a lifesaver to my heart and mind and soul as I read, synthesize, and internalize. Though I’m not the type to ever physically self-harm, I now understand, to the core of my being, exactly why men suicide. Alternatively, for me it was a possibility there would just be a shell left on this earth with my name, but “I” wouldn’t be present in any real sense.
Right now? making moving myself along the journey. I am a better man almost a year later. I will continue.
Gratitude, Grief, ... ... Bitter Ashes
Though still, almost a year later, every day at random times it feels like a mountain fell on me. I can't breathe, can't see, can't think, my hands shake, I feel flattened to nothingness and tears fall ... and then the world starts again. Talking with my father and his experiences with hurt and failure - he described it as the world goes black and you can see no way out of the darkness. Then eventually you see bits of light that offer hope for the future.
I deliberated on naming myself Grief or Gratitude or now Grok as I always seem to seek understanding before I can react or process. (from Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land") Now perhaps I will just be G, as I am all three at the same time. I hadn't ever understood that you could feel multiple opposing emotions like this.
I wondered where my anger was for a long time. W did ask me early on if I was angry and hated her. No, I find it difficult to hate, I am a calm and collected person by nature and don't anger easily. Perhaps a suppression from childhood when I figured out with my intellect and capacity, I could really wreak harm to all around if I did not stay controlled. I knew where my anger was residing after coming across this quote, for I can see all the wonderful branching futures closed off and deleted as she chooses divorce rather than healing a family, and that loss grieves me to the core of my soul. Anger resides in a WTF of grief for me.
“I sat with my anger long enough until she told me her real name was grief.” ― C.S. Lewis
Nov 2022 – W: H, we have to talk. I’m not feeling “in love” the way we should be and used to. I feel attracted and a connection to a man at S12’s athletics (also one of D18's bosses at her work). G: Always rational me - OK W, this is troubling but seems part of the normal troubles in marriages by the 20 year mark. The burdens of life leave not enough US connection time and all of us will eventually come across people we connect with during life. What shall we do about it? I’m at a loss since you schedule the family busy for 6.5 days of the week and have given you all excess budget and it is all spent, admittedly on good things. … tears as I felt helpless on what to do with beloved who is obviously unhappy. In retrospect, I was not very knowledgeable on female communication patterns and male / female dynamics.
Christmas 2022 - Travel to see her family and my family in other states. Because of pet care etc..., me + kids for ~ a week at my parents and then fly her in for a combined ~ a week at her family. W seems grumpy and irritated. W doesn't seem to want to be close. I don't understand. But I am patient and await when she can say. I saw, but didn't understand the effect of seeing her parents bicker. One of several MLC triggers.
End of March 2023 - The night of infamy. PTSD generator. In house separation begins. ILYBINILWY
W: We have to separate. I have "feelings" for another man. We haven't been maintaining our relationship and I feel like roommates. My heart is hard and I don't think you can reach me anymore. My feelings are REAL!! G: I can't sleep at all. Up at before dawn, go walking in a local preserve. She is suddenly so cold, walled off, and dressing as such. Pray, write, think, in shock... come home after walking around until evening. Awake for ~40 hours. DB1, Day after Easter, April 2023 - W: I want a divorce. "I have to burn it all down and start over." I thought it would be not right to do this on Easter. G: I don't and don't agree with any of this in dealing with our problems. I will not deny you agency in any way however and will not obstruct you.
DB1 rescinded, May 2023 - Still in a tail spin, trying to orient and right myself. I had found a web site/guy who had a program to help men in separations. It was very helpful in focusing me on what I can control along with dos and don’ts that align with DB principles. I thought for a while this is what I was dealing with, a WAW, since that was how W described herself. I had been posting a song daily to FB representing something I felt meaningful to me. I had kept it mostly about me and not blame or provoking anger. Almost no one else knew at this point. This day though I was cranky and publicly posted a song link and lyrics on the way to work:
Watching the mistakes go down Something inspires the things I do yeah
You left me here face down Spilling blood on the higher ground
I get a call just before passing through vehicle entry security on the way to work. W: What are you doing? Our parents don't even know. I'll take it back. I'll not divorce you. G: Um, What?! We'll talk about this later. After a few weeks she demands her own place to live, but no divorce. I agree in the interests of giving time and space.
At the same time, finding out more about OM, both what she is telling me and yes, snooping. Crazy enough, I was just about the person she felt she could tell about what she was doing and experiencing! The experts here are right about snooping. Generally don't do it. The pain of seeing that dialog about me and our life distorted to someone else.... It did clarify what she was NOT telling me. She never directly lied though.
OM is - - Married for 5 years - Has a 2 yr old and a newborn now - Is one of D18's bosses (for swim lessons she teaches) - Is part of what was S12's sports (swim) - They had constructed plans of how to leave their families - W refused a PA, but doesn't believe an EA is a real thing, though in the middle of one. - OM did something with her phone so he can see the messages when she texts herself. OM replies by modifying her Spotify playlists, anon replies on social media platforms, etc... trying to be hidden and non-attributable. She accepts this as well and good so OM can see how genuine she is... W: "Oh, he's just protecting his family" WTF?! He's wonderful for putting all risk on you? From my line of work, I know you cannot hide this from even a limited forensic analysis. Four separate acquaintances, including IC and ex-FBI agent, independently described this as a control mechanism.
DB2 6/2023 - In the process of taking a hard look at myself and her accusations and hurts (I was still taking them very literally at this point. I have had so much trust in her judgements and opinions, it is very difficult to detach and look from outside.) I told the pastor of my church I needed help. I went to meet him and told him little of the things W had said to me, but that I needed to renew myself as I was in a rut and in trouble. After the meeting I walk out into the parking lot to find W parked there also.
W: What are you doing here?! G: Well, I considered what you said and decided I will work on my spiritual aspects as I have been slacking for some years. W: What did you tell him about me?! G: Very little, but some since this crisis is revolving around you. My conversation with him was focused on me and where I'm at. I can do something about me and he will help. W: Oh! OM told me not to be mad when I came over here. G: Um, right. Lets talk about this... After a long conversation about us, W devolves into talking about OM's wonderful qualities, realizes what she is doing. W: Oh G! I can't do this anymore. I love HIM! W: I will be the villain to everyone. The children will take your side and won't understand. My brother will never speak to me again. My parents like you, not me. No church in their right mind will accept what I am doing. I HAVE to do it like crossing the invisible bridge by Indiana Jones for the Holy Grail.
Weeks later - It really sinks in I have a WW, not just a WAW. The EA has given her the out for the WAW feelings she had. I wonder if she really wanted me to be the bad guy and reject her/divorce her to give her the freedom she believes she wants. The Christian values we had shared would not allow divorce for the reasons she has given so far. Repair of relationships would be demanded. M suicide by EA?
G: I am not your enemy. Don't let this be a legal fight and the state determine outcomes. I give zero support to divorce, but I will not block you. I will not restrict your access or contact to our children.
Mediation 1 8/2023 - Mediator: W, you are still living in the same home?! WW: Yes Mediator: G, do you feel comfortable with this?! G: No. (this was a reply on gut instinct and not thought out) Afterwards I told W directly, "Any complaints you have directly with me are fine. I will take them and you may stay here. But you have brough another man into MY HOME even virtually. That is incredibly disrespectful and I am not OK with it."
Vacation 9/2023 - As my workplace is transitioning support contracts, I must take my accumulated leave or will lose all leave. Instead of the annual trips to see family around Christmas, I take the three kids and me to the other side of the USA to see my family for about two weeks. WW drops us off at the airport and unexpectedly gave me a hug. First contact since separation. She feels thin. Has lost a ton of weight. She had been trying to shed it for 10+ years without success until now. The "why now" bugs me. I feel odd and don't know what to make of it. Try to keep to my no expectations and attach no meaning. Adventures galore with parents and hang with my two sisters who have been my touchstone rocks while I work through this. I don't message or contact WW. Head feels more clear.
After return, each day, I post on FB pictures and the adventure we had with my family. This is the first time WW can see what we were doing. I discover the home in some disarray with dog poop on the floor where she didn't bother to clean it up. She asks me to take a drive with her before the next mediation session.
WW: G, you know I've been feeling in a bad place. If I wasn't around anymore everyone wouldn't feel so bad. Not that I would ever do that. Everyone’s emotions are too much for me. G: That sounds very hard.
I check bills and credit cards and discover WW spent an $7,000+ more than normal in little chunks all over the place. I ask for joint cards back and take her off bank accounts. I pull from emergency accounts to pay overages. WW: Fine. It's time anyway.
She moves out 10/2023 - WW: unexpectedly via text "G, I'm staying at the local state campground X in a tent until I find a place to live. I'll come back during the day to see the kids" G: "you will do as you chose. sleep well, and stay safe"
She finds a place 11/2023 WW has been texting me properties and land for many months now. Never a clear direction. Wobbling all over the place. I had promised early on to pull from investment accounts to pay for any affordable place. The cost would come from her side of any settlement. She figures out finally she has no job so can get no loan. To be clear, she has a masters degree, is working on a second masters degree and could make as much as me if she chose that life style. I'm not helping as I said early on "if you chose this, I will not be some sort of half-husband to you." Finally, without warning...
WW: G, I need $20,000 on this property three days from now. I decided on this Fifth Wheel RV with only $600/month lot rent as my temporary housing. It even has a shed. Yay! G: Um, $20k completed wire transfer in three days?! We don't keep that kind of cash around. Typically, 3 days to sell some investment and another 3 days to transfer funds if you are lucky. Let me think. WW: Oh, I didn't think about how it would work. I might lose me $3,000 deposit! That is my foolishness (hands shaking). I don't have any money left. I spent the $8,000 my parents left me. No one is giving me dog walking jobs on Rover like they claim! I did get it done by taping a home equity line of credit I had established.
Thanksgiving 2023 - The kids and I whip up a great feast. We plan and cook together. We are starting to bond as our own unit. At the end of the prep S12 says "when is mommy going to come? I asked her and she said it is up to you daddy." I hadn't said a thing to WW.
G: S12, tell your mom she is welcome at XX o'clock
I do this for my children. I was calm and respectful. I asked the blessings on all of us as we need it and gave thanks for all the good things in our lives. I went for a walk by myself later to feel crushed and shake for an hour.
Christmas 2023 Her parents come out to our state in their RV. They visit and help her some. They refuse to give what she thought was her inheritance money. Her RV need work as I don't think she had a good inspection done as I suggested she do. She continues to intermittently come over most weekdays to be with kids as I had agreed to. First snoop in a long time finds "I am going over weekdays to make sure the kids don't feel like I abandoned them." Her parents and I get along well and they come over many days to visit with kids and me, play games, etc... Whenever they propose an event with WW also, I have plans. We all go out together to a hibachi grill once before they leave in Jan (WW included). Her and her parents had Christmas Eve at their RV with the children. I had Christmas morning and day with my children. It was a good day. I had enjoyed taking each one on trips to buy the gifts for each other and select “Santa” gifts for each other.
January 2024 Now? Routines with running a household and three kids alone takes a lot more out of me. I have discarded most entertainment habits I use to have, and it is to my and the children’s benefit. WW comes over most weekdays while I am gone for between 1 - 5 hrs to educate and visit D17 and S12 as we have homeschooled always. This put a real wrinkle in our futures, but I agreed for it to continue as it has been very good for the children. WW doesn't seem to do anything besides scroll social media on her phone/laptop or work some kids education while she is there. I suspect looking for secret OM contact or emotional fix. I installed a doorbell cam and a couple indoor cams to check up on kids since I am not there and she is often not either. I think that made her mad several times. Now I just am bemused at her occasional upset. I’ve had some of the NG habits that I am shedding slowly.
More to the back story and future story to come in other posts.
H:54 W:50 D18, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded (WW: "I know it's wrong") 5/2023 DB2 (WW: "I can't do this, I Love HIM") 6/2023 G: I am not your enemy. Don't let this be a legal fight and the state determine outcomes. Legal Mediation 1-4 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
By the end of this week, I'll have completed these. Putting into practice is harder...
Infidelity: • Harley, "Surviving an Affair" • Janice Spring, "After the Affair"
KIDS • Elizabeth Marquardt, Between Two Worlds The Inner Lives of Children of Divorce • Neuman, Helping your kids cope with divorce: Sandcastles
Relationship • Gary Smally, If Only He Knew • MWD, Divorce Busting / *Divorce Remedy • Chapman, One more try • Gary Chapman, The 5 Love Languages: The Secret to Love That Lasts • Dobson, Love Must Be Tough • Gary Smally, Winning Your Wife Back Before It's Too Late • Paul Tripp, Marriage (Repackage): 6 Gospel Commitments Every Couple Needs to Make • Harley, His Needs Her Needs • John Gray, Mars and Venus Starting Over • John Gray Men are From Mars, Women are from Venus. • John Gray Why Mars and Venus Collide • The art of seduction abreviated
MAN UP • Robert Glover, No more Mr nice guy • Wayne M. Levine, "Hold onto your N.U.T.S." • Grover, Relentless • Cloud, Boundaries, Updated and Expanded Edition • David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
Life • Adams, How To Fail At Everything • Voss, Never Split the Difference
H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
Welcome to the forums, sometimes posting ones story and hearing other similar ones isnone of the best forms of therapy. As men we rarely have people we don't want to bother and talk about things. Stay on the path you are, she seems very confused and lost and is letting her emotions run her life. Focus on your children and yourself and continue being as indifferent in your communications with her.
Once your registration to the site has been completed you can post and start a thread. Please have only one thread active at a time (per forum); it keeps your situation organized and is easier for those following along and posting to you. There are a few forums which help categorize posters’ situations.
When your thread reaches 100 posts, it will be time for you to start a new thread. It is a good idea to link your old thread to your new one, and even link the new one back to the previous one. That makes it easier for the folks following your story. (There is a help thread on linking in the sticky threads at the top section of the forum’s display.) A moderator will “close” your full thread which prevents further posting to it. It is still available to read.
Post in small frequent replies on your thread. Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity can be very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Post on other people’s thread to give support.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I've tried journalling intermittently. Posting may be better. I have trouble getting time to write all the many thoughts running through me. By the time I write one down I have gone through five more threads internally. I often seem to think in terms of concepts, not necessarily words. To write things down, or talk for that matter, I must make an effort to translate meanings into words. Just like any translation, meaning and intent can be lost along the way.
I do have the typical male trait of not talking about things, I just think about them. This is also a personal trait as I can be very self-contained. When younger I did a fair amount of backpack camping. Some of these events had three-day solo time as part of the program. I was fine and felt three days solo to be peaceful. It seemed to drive most others crazy. I’m also in the process of rebuilding male friend networks I had lost and not maintained over the last years. A symptom of my own problems. When this kicked off I realized I did not have anyone to talk to about it.
In retrospect, this trait has not helped my M communications. Along with everything else this past year came a litany of complaints and previously unknown hurts from W. She cast it almost all on me, which I accepted at first. With some detachment comes more clarity. We met as new military officers. Training and experience gave us both the ability to push aside issues that don’t seem to matter in the moment and “get things done” anyway. Now we are paying the price for pushing things aside.
Gratitude for daughters yesterday – It is oak tree pollen season here. My little truck and D18’s cars are coated in yellow. Yesterday after work – “hey D18, lets go wash our cars.” She starts sobbing while laying in bed “Daaad! I can’t! I’m sooooo tired! I have to nap now! DON’T start without ME!”
D18 has a job working before and after school care for 3 to 15 year olds. She is one who emotions just flow out of. I have learned a lot this year on how to accept and process these female expressions. This is a difficult space for me. I just pat her on her head and say “OK, not having a break after work FEELS hard I know, I’ll be back in a little bit.” Validation? She goes to sleep.
On to D17 who is laying on the couch watching reels and ask her to come help wash cars. “Daaaad! Do I have to?!” “No D17, but I would like your help and enjoy your company.” I go out and start and D17 joins me. “Give me the good brush, I want yours Dad.” “HA, looks like you got wet Dad, you should be more careful…LOL” Grumpy turns to laughs.
D18 comes out to wash her car. “Don’t you spray me or I WILL punch you!” “Give me the good brush Dad!” “Stop doing it for me, I WANT TO DO IT” But like D17, ends in laughs despite wanting to stay grumpy. They both end up scrubbing their white Crocs with car wash stuff while disputing who gets their feet sprayed first.
D18 and I go in to make Mexican rice together. She has been picking meal items for us to make together. Tastes great.
10:30p after W has come, said goodnights for 40 min to kids and left, I find D18 and D17 downstairs after lights out. “What are you two doing?” D18 is over tired and starts sobbing again. “I’m sorry and I want to go to bed but I didn’t eat enough and now I have to toast the bagels and find the cream cheese and still have to brush teeth and I’m sad and I’m tired and want to go to bed and I have to get up early again and ….” D17 rather than be her critical self says it’s OK we’ll help you and makes D18 laugh at something. Then mock criticizes her for laughing while she is momentarily depressed. This makes D18 laugh more and say stop it! S12 comes downstairs at the commotion. Rather than criticize, I just say S12 do you want to join us in making sad D18 laugh? I make D18 mint tea and shoo them upstairs to bed after rule breaking snacks are complete. Then visit with each one in bed as a new habit I am building to support them through this.
Grief reminders yesterday – Kids don’t know all the things WW has told me over the last year. I’m not sure she even remembers saying them. Ringing in my head still is:
“It’s ok I won’t be in the home, they need their dad more now anyway. Because D18, D17 are older and S12 is a boy.”
“How do you feel W, now that you have your own space?” “It’s wonderful because I don’t have everyone demanding something from me. Whenever the kids demand anything, I feel like I have to drop everything of mine and do it for them. It’s time for me and I can finally get some things done like my second masters degree and the craft business I want to start up.”
H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
I’m glad you posted and are sharing your story. It is wonderful to hear that you’ve found the resources and fellow posters’ hard-earned wisdom soothing to heart, mind, and soul. And yes, you are not alone.
Originally Posted by grok
I’m not the type to ever physically self-harm, I now understand, to the core of my being, exactly why men suicide. Alternatively, for me it was a possibility there would just be a shell left on this earth with my name, but “I” wouldn’t be present in any real sense.
(((Hug)))
I hear you man. I’ve writhed in the abyss of depression and despair. I know first hand how it feels and how it seems like it will last forever. Yet, it really is temporary. Fleeting.
Strange to say fleeting, for I struggled in that crucible for months and months. However, looking back, that is how it now feels.
And yes, getting that close the precipice of ending things brings a - to one’s core understanding of certain things. Utilize that understanding. Pay it forward. Speak a kind word to a stranger. You never know what a completely life altering effect you may have on someone who is silently suffering in utter agony.
It’s the little things, the little moments - a kind word, a smile, a hug - I find are really misnamed. For they are the big moments in people’s lives. Much bigger, and longer remembered and cherished than what is often perceived and sought as grand.
Sharing some of one’s time is the most precious thing there is.
Originally Posted by grok
Though still, almost a year later, every day at random times it feels like a mountain fell on me. I can't breathe, can't see, can't think, my hands shake, I feel flattened to nothingness and tears fall ... and then the world starts again. Talking with my father and his experiences with hurt and failure - he described it as the world goes black and you can see no way out of the darkness. Then eventually you see bits of light that offer hope for the future.
Very nice to see your Dad sharing his wisdom.
Like a mountain falling and crushing is very apt.
A suggestion:
We all need to feel our grief. And you are. However, presently it strikes at random times throughout the day. Your feelings build and then release. You feel better for a while. Then repeat. Perfectly healthy and normal.
Now, the suggestion. Schedule this feeling and release.
Depending on how many times a day you experience this, schedule the appropriate number of sessions. For example.
In the morning, when you first get out of bed, you likely are doing pretty well. By the way, I hope you are getting a good night sleep. Well rested is super important. This scheduling helps with that too. So, after awakening a bit, set an alarm (yes use an alarm) for 5 or 10 minutes. Once you get proficient and experienced in this scheduled time, 5 minutes will likely be enough.
Anyhow, sit by yourself, and feel your loss. Cry, feel the pain and sorrow, let it wash over you. When the alarm goes off. Stop. Get up. And go about your day.
Schedule these sessions. You can then ensure you have convenient places and times (like an empty room or your car during coffee break) to feel and release the building emotions.
Taking such control over your actions influences your emotions. You experience them, and you slowly start to ween back the needed amount of time and number of times a day. Maybe it starts 5 minutes six times a day, then 5 minutes four times a day, then only morning and night, then three minutes. Eventually, you reach only one time needed, maybe just mornings. And then you’ll need no scheduled outlet. You can consciously defer to later as needed. (Just ensure you do allow yourself to feel later.)
Don’t fret over length of time or numbers of times. Find the balance that works for you. Then move forward towards the goal of zero times. We are all pretty much fixers, and it’s surprising how motivated and competent we actual are at solving things and reaching a set goal. Problem is, in our situations we try to solve things that are not within our control or power to solve. Yet, focus on you. Focus on something directly controllable. And it is amazing how quickly we do overcome.
Your W certainly sounds all over the place. And her descent is pretty wild. So, she’s currently living in her RV at a campground? Do the kids stay with her? What is your custody schedule?
I see your signature line states a draft settlement in March this year. What are the details (if you wish to share)? Did you utilize a lawyer? Ensure you always have a L look over anything before you sign.
W’s has burnt through a lot of cash it seems. $7000 on credit card, $3000 deposit, spent the $8000 her parents gifted her, and $20,000 of investments to purchase the RV.
Quote
[W:] No one is giving me dog walking jobs on Rover like they claim!
No job, no employment, and spending lots. Unfortunately, that is a pretty common script. Be cautious and watch your finances. I agree with your wise decision to get back her joint credit card and remove her from accounts.
W’s emotions will be cranked to eleven and she just has no bandwidth for you, the kids, or anyone or anything else. Toss in an OM and affair, and she has quite a pile of pain, regret, shame, guilt, to get through, along with her own inner work. Sorry g, an EA seldom remain just that. A PA is highly likely.
Affairs are a symptom of a deeper problem. The AP means nothing. They are a band-aid. Affairs are built upon lies and deceit, and require constant and enormous energies to maintain for they are build upon a horrible foundation - like building on sand. Very unstable.
W needs to feel the loss. Feel the consequences of her choices. And that’s a long road.
Focus on you and the kids. GAL. Give plenty of time and space. And you are right - no snooping.
Start new hobbies. Or pick up old one’s you had to put down due to the pressures of marriage and life.
I look forward to conversing with you.
Have a great day.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
W is living in her RV at an RV Park 15 minutes away. It does have resale value (though I don't think she had it inspected well and it needs expensive maintenance) and at $600/month lot rental is much less than half the monthly cost of an apartment here of the same size. She views it as a temporary transition place to live. She has spoken to me and the mediator of her plans to purchase land nearby and build a house for her with space for the children in the future. I said nothing. She has no idea of how real estate or home construction works and how long it will take. I mentioned these plans to my tough blue collar type sister, who just snorted and quipped "f'n five years MAYBE." By that time D18 and D17 will be out on their own and S12 will be almost ready to graduate high school.
Her near-term rationale is not bad but her ability to honestly view the future is ... warped right now. She has never been the one to deal with the realities of making it on your own. She went from supported at college, to almost immediately through officer training, to military, to married.
Custody? Well, the children live with me full time in our home. At one point early on I told her if she wanted me move out I would be very angry. Also it is better for the children to have zero disruption in their home, routines and rooms. She agreed. I said and meant that I would not block or restrict her access to the children. They may go to her anytime they or she want. When asked by the mediator last time, she let it slip "the kids don't ever come over because the don't like it there." The notional parenting plan she drew up reflects this reality. I accepted her use of the home during the weekdays while I am at work to continue to homeschool D17 (almost self schools now) and S12. She also takes those two to sports and kids activities.
Draft Settlement The draft settlement needs a L to look it over for my interests now. We used an independent impartial mediator who walked her though all the financial and procedural parts and then drew up a draft based on what we had agreed to. I read the law early, knew the financial parts, and understood most of the rest but figured she needed someone to walk her through it and I needed it all put in the correct legal terms. She paid for it. Children will live with me. She can option something like 100 nights a year if she chooses. I will not pay her child support. I will pay her ~20% of my income as alimony for 18 months (until D17 graduates and has her drivers license). This alimony is predicated on her claiming the need to spend 30 hours a week on kids home schooling and activities, preventing a normal job…. After the 18 months it is presumed W has the ability to fully support herself. Assets are split 50/50 with two exceptions. I will trade conventional investment accounts to buy her out of our home. We also have a rental house in another state with a property line issue which prevents easy sale. I will continue to manage this rental house in which we both have 50% interest.
g
H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
I felt very alone and afraid of telling people anything for a long time. Most of what I knew came from W telling me things in confidence in an odd sort of trust. Shall I tell others and have it circle around breaking this limited trust? Would the information be used by others in cruel or heavy handed ways causing further damage? Eventually I figured out how to tell people just the basic facts in a without coming across as … being out to cause W deliberate injury.
“Hi D17’s gymnastics teachers. I need to change out the payment sources. No, I’m not removing her. Her mom left me this year and told me she is “In Love” with another man and wants a divorce. I have to make a bunch of changes and adjustments.” To my surprise, both ladies behind the counter turned to me and the first thing they said was, “OH! G are you OK? Do you need anything?” I was shocked. I don’t know what I was expecting. They know W and D17. They don’t know me really.
As part of GAL, I’ve been going to a local brew house for trivia night. A couple of the regulars I got to hang out with know but some of the others did not this last week. “What you looking at on your phone G? Shouldn’t be work so seriously…” I turn the phone around and show the title “Marital settlement agreement.” “Was this a surprise G?” “When she told me she was in love with a married guy who apparently promised to leave his wife for her and he has a 2 yr old and a newborn it was a surprise.” Mostly from the married ladies around the table: “WTF G! Like that would ever f’n happen G! F that G! That never works in real life G! ” along with snorts of disgust. I felt better.
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H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
I'm an analytical type. It has been very hard for me to stop reading all the clues, release hope, let go of expectations, and live in the present. I have all the typical male “fix it” and from work I have “solve complex technical problems” instincts. I kept seeing all these discontinuities along the way of W’s mind and heart crisis and familiar patterns overlaid. I think it took six months to get to releasing expectations and really moving to detaching. The advice here against in home separations is right. I could not truly detach until her presence and internal disconnects were not in the same home with me every day.
Disconnect of the first six months when in the same home - When W was tired or caught up in what she was saying she would still refer to me as “honey.” I don’t think she ever noticed she was doing it. It is REALLY hard to detach when terms of endearment get thrown into conversations. How can my heart deal with or detach from this earnest familiar face I have been beside for half my life calling me “honey” and then telling me about her plans to leave?
This week’s oddity - We have three dogs. Two little ones and one large who is just about one year old now. Primarily I and D18 and D17 take care of them. When W is not too busy with work, classes, helping other people, or feeling sick, she will take the two little dogs overnights to her RV. The large dog is just growing out of being a puppy and still has a fair amount of energy. A few days ago when stopping by to pick up D17 for gymnastics she comes into the kitchen and says “G, I found a free! dog training class a 45 minutes drive away (an hour for her). Do you mind if I take large dog on Saturday mornings? His barking is bothering D17 and S12.” I just say “OK W, I have no issues with you taking him for training. I agree free is good!” She popped in today (Sat morning 9am and I didn’t know it was going to be today) as I’m making breakfast for me and kids, leashed the large dog, and went off to the training class. Contact with kids was a short “Hi D17, Love you S12” and off she went. S12 didn’t even look up from his computer game but just yelled “Love you more!” What sort of blended home is this? She is training a dog she likes but rarely takes care of and lives only with me? How much of this am I OK with?
Two weeks ago oddity - W has slowly been removing items from the home she is confident the kids and I will not want or use. “Hey G, I’m going to take the KitchenAid machine attachments that you and D18 don’t use. I’ll take the grain grinding attachment and to the 50lb sacks of wheat and corn, etc… if you aren’t opposed. That way we can be prepared and make bread and all kinds of stuff right through emergencies or supply breakdowns.” I just said “That is fine with me W.” Internally I’m asking who is “WE?” She distinctly said “WE will be prepared.”
I can get confused by these disconnects, have an impulse to try and figure out what they mean, and many months ago would have given me hope. I did read and have tried to internalize all the repeated advice on NOT reading into what she says and does. i.e. DON’T think any of this means she has decided or feels any diffently. I just note them as signs of internal issues and struggles she has and the journey she is on. One time early on I figured out through a course designed for men undergoing separations…. I told her directly “I understand through all this pain and destruction you are only trying to seek what you believe will make you happy.” She looked a little surprised and whispered, “Yes.”
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H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
I loved the car washing story. Such times are long remembered.
I’ve no pollen here yet. Everything is still under a blanket of melting snow.
Originally Posted by grok
“How do you feel W, now that you have your own space?” “It’s wonderful because I don’t have everyone demanding something from me. Whenever the kids demand anything, I feel like I have to drop everything of mine and do it for them. It’s time for me and I can finally get some things done like my second masters degree and the craft business I want to start up.”
Asking W about her feelings is not that helpful. Sure, it gives you a window into her current mindset. For that moment in time. And perhaps it assuages some doubts as it allows you to see and understand her path a bit.
However, she answered like one would suspect she would. And that, reinforces her position within herself. She is already surrounding herself with people who reinforce and encourage her viewpoint, don’t add yourself to that entourage.
Yes, validate her feelings if/when those times come up and it is appropriate. That’s validating her feelings not the situation.
She needs time and space. She needs to feel something other than her euphoric high about her shinny new life. Loss, shame, regret, guilt, etc. Time and space can give her the chance for such emotions to bubble up to her surface. Emotions that are more helpful to your goal.
The draft separation proposal sounds reasonable. Given the kids ages, they do have a say in where and whom they live with. It sounds like they would agree as well.
W’s future plans of acquiring some property and building a house sound less reasonable. Also, you don’t want to get tangled up in such a venture. Ensure your financial liabilities are secured and limited before any such wild course occurs.
Usually there is a window when the leaving spouse is more generous in negotiating. A time when their emotions are running high and they are more “happy”. This reverts or disappears as more time passes. Just something to consider while thinking over the business side of your journey.
Originally Posted by grok
I felt very alone and afraid of telling people anything for a long time. Most of what I knew came from W telling me things in confidence in an odd sort of trust. Shall I tell others and have it circle around breaking this limited trust? Would the information be used by others in cruel or heavy handed ways causing further damage? Eventually I figured out how to tell people just the basic facts in a without coming across as … being out to cause W deliberate injury.
As a general rule, sticking to the basic facts is good. I totally get how alone and afraid you felt. And wondering how much you should you let that cat out of the bag.
Some advice: Never demonize W.
Demonizing W will alter you. It also will affect your kids. Your kids are half W. Half their genetic make up comes from their Mom. They know this. Any demonizing or such will be reflected / absorbed by them. Believe me, they already have many question of if they are destine for a similar fate as Mom.
It’s perfectly ok, and needed, to discuss the situation with the kids. Answer their questions openly and honestly - age appropriate of course. And some topics can be, are, none of their business. Which is still an answer.
Originally Posted by grok
I'm an analytical type. It has been very hard for me to stop reading all the clues, release hope, let go of expectations, and live in the present. I have all the typical male “fix it” and from work I have “solve complex technical problems” instincts.
I hear you man.
Consider solution vs resolution. Solving vs resolving.
Lots of problems situations - wording choice here. Like can, will, cannot, won’t, try, do, our mind is always listening and will craft one’s reality as one asks it to. For example, cannot means impossible. And very few things are truly impossible. I, DnJ, cannot get pregnant is one of those impossibilities. However, most stuff is will not or won’t, not can’t.
So saying problem defines and crafts things/situations into problems. This is our usual default to see life’s challenges as problems and we engage our problem solving abilities and mind. “Problem” is, haha, Saturday day humour. Thing is, life’s challenges can be opportunities when we don’t predefine or pigeonhole them as problems.
Resolving a challenge is different than solving a problem. Some problems do not have solutions. Yet everything can have a resolution.
This week’s oddities are not solvable. You wisely have realized this. It’s a matter of control, for the oddities lay with W. You control only how you will respond.
Originally Posted by grok
What sort of blended home is this? She is training a dog she likes but rarely takes care of and lives only with me? How much of this am I OK with?
Good questions.
These behaviours of her’s do illustrate her internal struggles. However, you may want to consider saying no to some stuff.
Dog training is basically training the owner. Bonding dog and owner. As dog doesn’t live with her, such training will have less benefit. I’d likely say such duality of mastership will confuse said dog, depending on how seriously W takes it.
The removing of appliances and supplies is more troubling in my opinion. She moved out, without a signed legally binding separation agreement, let her furnish her new digs (more or less). Not being mean here, rather you and the kids need stuff.
When my W left she utilized my house and pantry as a shopping mart for a while. Eventually I said this is my and the kids house, not a grocery store. She stopped after that.
It’s difficult to know how to proceed when situations are first going along. Treat W as a roommate. Or as a friend as she doesn’t live there. Of course, she not a friend as your friends don’t treat you that way. Point is, you’d likely not let a roommate or friend do what W is presently doing.
So how much of this are you ok with? Likely far less than you realize. Or you’d not be bringing it up. Right?
You don’t have to solve this, just resolve it. And that opens up a lot more possibilities.
W: G, I found a free! dog training class a 45 minutes drive away (an hour for her). Do you mind if I take large dog on Saturday mornings? His barking is bothering D17 and S12.
g: Oh, I didn’t realize. I’ll speak with them. And I’ll look into the barking.
Training is an option. As well as anti-bark collars, more exercise, etc. Ensure you give yourself ample time before responding to W or her requests.
W: Hey G, I’m going to take the KitchenAid machine attachments that you and D18 don’t use. I’ll take the grain grinding attachment and to the 50lb sacks of wheat and corn, etc… if you aren’t opposed.
g: Actually, I want to keep the machine and its attachments. Are you looking to get one for yourself?
That being said, don’t sweat over a few pots and pans. Yet, don’t let it all leave the house either without some acknowledgment or agreement. Precedence is being set. Best to do it well, IMHO.
“Hmmm, let me think about that and I’ll get back to you” is a perfectly acceptable immediate response for W’s sprung upon you, ideas of her’s.
Like detaching. 24-48 hours before responding to texts or emails to ensure your reply is not emotional and it’s what you’d like to say. Similarly, buy yourself some time when it’s in person.
Hope you have a great weekend.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
D, Thanks for the reminders and hard earned knowledge
Originally Posted by DnJ
Asking W about her feelings is not that helpful. Sure, it gives you a window into her current mindset. For that moment in time. And perhaps it assuages some doubts as it allows you to see and understand her path a bit.
However, she answered like one would suspect she would. And that, reinforces her position within herself. She is already surrounding herself with people who reinforce and encourage her viewpoint, don’t add yourself to that entourage.
Yes, validate her feelings if/when those times come up and it is appropriate. That’s validating her feelings not the situation.
All true. Expanding the context, this was a paraphrase. One evening shortly after she found her own place she had come over to say goodnight to the kids. She came out of the common restroom after extra long and said "G, can we talk? I was in there curled on the floor with FEELINGS and I need to talk" "OK W, come with me" and I took us outside and closed the door to be apart from the children. I attempted to just listen and validate feelings while using empathy techniques (mirroring and emotion labeling) from "Never Split the Difference". She talked for about an hour.
I considered whether this was providing emotional support when I should be dropping it OR a 180 from bad habits acquired of only listening while I do other things at the same time. When we first met she was in much distress and under stress. I was focused just listening to her. A decade and more later, I ended up gaming, looking a phone, etc... while listening to her. This undoubtedly left feelings of "am I not important to you?" I didn't recognize it at the time because, well, I could repeat back all she said right? Just the facts right? Wrong! Classic Mars v Venus.
An aside: Talking this much is not unusual in our history. One of our inside jokes from almost the beginning was that she has 40,000 words a day to get out. She talks, I listen. Of course I cannot sustain that much female talking needs all on my own so I encouraged her ladies nights, etc...
Originally Posted by DnJ
Usually there is a window when the leaving spouse is more generous in negotiating. A time when their emotions are running high and they are more “happy”. This reverts or disappears as more time passes. Just something to consider while thinking over the business side of your journey.
Thank you and good advice. Early on I offered limited amount and duration alimony to transition her. Months later W said "I don't want ANY support from you." Now in the end at mediation 3? W said "If I could JUST leave I would." I see the trajectory you are referring to.
Originally Posted by DnJ
Demonizing W will alter you. It also will affect your kids. Your kids are half W. Half their genetic make up comes from their Mom. They know this. Any demonizing or such will be reflected / absorbed by them. Believe me, they already have many question of if they are destine for a similar fate as Mom.
This I think I don't do and would actually find hard to do. To me it is a crushing tragedy, not an evil demon. And from the beginning is not who I want to be. I have caught myself complaining about this or that and stop myself short. I can do something about it with W or decide it is something I accept. Visualizing the big red STOP sign.
I believe W wonders if she is destined for the same fate as her Mom. I have pulled together many signs from W to make a 90% fit to a kind of MLC. Or as I think better phrased from another site, it is a "Crisis of Purpose." I learned her mom had an affair of some kind early on in their marriage. Her dad has apparently never let her forget it. They are still together. If you pay attention you can see they snipe at each other a lot. A bunch of behind the scenes unhappiness. I received "G, I don't want to be in my 70s and like them." To complicate that even more, she had been her mom's outlet and counselor since she was 13! When I met W she was co-dependent with her mother. Her mother would use indirect emotional blackmail. One of a number of reasons it took me four years to marry her. Understand there were just as many of my own issues I had to work through before I could say “I Do.” I thought we had substantially resolved these slumbering dragons.
Originally Posted by DnJ
It’s perfectly ok, and needed, to discuss the situation with the kids. Answer their questions openly and honestly - age appropriate of course. And some topics can be, are, none of their business. Which is still an answer.
I have discussed briefly with each child. D18 is the emotional one who bursts into tears with arguments. She knows the most works with OM. She has told off her mom about him. i.e. that relationship is toxic, toxic, toxic to all. She is spreading her wings and pushing away while still wanting mom’s love and attention. She also told me I was “kinda checked out for a few years” and she is right. D17 is the little lawyer who gets angry. I believe W feared her reaction the most. She knows some. D17 put crosses all over the house when first told. She has turned out to also be the most needy for mom’s attention and time. This is OK. Of course she wants mom’s love and attention when under stress. S12 is the sensitive boy who internalizes stress. “Dad, stop talking about it. Why would you talk about things that hurt. “ He often comes over after lights out to complain about various things that hurt.
Originally Posted by DnJ
The removing of appliances and supplies is more troubling in my opinion. She moved out, without a signed legally binding separation agreement, let her furnish her new digs (more or less). Not being mean here, rather you and the kids need stuff.
In truth, W has been incredibly slow at taking things from the home. Only a few things that are explicitly hers and asked a few times for parts we would unlikely to use in the next years. At one point W even stated she would like to keep the her wedding ring, wooden chest she bought in Korea, her bicycle, etc… “If it is OK with you.” I was dumbfounded. W included the wedding ring in the list she is asking me about? She quipped to the mediator that it was expensive to outfit a new place. I said nothing. Where does this seem to come from? Well, two threads of thought -
She was clear at the beginning that she is the offender and I am the “Injured Party.” Her words. She has helped several friends in troubled relationships who left their husbands. I had not really taken it as a red flag at the time. I knew these men at least a little. They were problematic to the point I would not leave my kids at their house if it was only the man and their kids. I did not like them. Now these women are W’s advisors in part. Their terminology creeps in. I have Love that they have been W’s friends and Anger that they advise divorce as a solution. At DB1 I heard “G, I head from Ms. T the form is easy. We could sign the divorce next week I think. I HAVE to burn it all down and start over! You are too hard to get emotional support from”
The second thread is additional signs of MLC. Since sometime spring 2023, W basically began living out of one laundry basket when here. With new clothes as she lost weight. She has hardly touched her clothes and stuff in the closet. She has left and hardly touched anything in the dresser. And hardly other things except for her volumes set of craft supplies. As if W did not like who she was with me and wanted to be someone else. To my GREAT sadness, many hurts attached to me that I did not understand or know about before.
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H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
Just now W came in with tears and anger. "You know what!" "You think I have options and I don't!" "It's always been about the money with you!" "All those years I struggled with weight and felt fat and ugly... and YOU!" "You know you are on the spectrum!"
I presented myself as calm and collected. I was attempting to listen with focus. I asked what is it? I don't know unless you tell me. I know I could be mildly on the spectrum. I completely deny it is every about the money.
"Think with your HEART for once!" "Where are your emotions?!"
W, Those are ALL there. I have not showed you that part of me since... And I process emotions and logic differently than you. Asynchronous.
She left the way she came.
The only thing I can think of? Today is the 18th. The mediator emailed the draft final settlement on the 11th with an appointment to finalize on the 22nd. I found out today the L I had asked to review could not do it until the 25th. I emailed the mediator and W asking for a delay until after the 25th.
What to do? or do nothing.
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H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
“What is the intention with the lawyer? Do I need one of my own?”
Gratitude today for rain
The rain showers hit this morning while working from home today. “HEY S12! It’s raining! Let’s goooo!” He was looking despondent watching YouTube. He starts slow but is soon jumping for shoes and towels. “Come on sister!” “Come on D17! Let’s scooter in the rain”. Off we went into our street in the rain getting soaked. A great 15 minutes just because we could.
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H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
I agree with postponing the finalizing appointment with the mediator until your L has looked over things. This is likely the biggest financial decision of your life, it’s wise to ensure you have proper counsel.
Originally Posted by grok
Just now W came in with tears and anger.
When she comes at you with tears and anger, she’s not looking for advice or for her problems to be solved. She’s looking to be heard is all. She just wants to vent. Also, she looking for you to fight back. For a resupply of her justification.
Good job remaining calm.
Originally Posted by grok
W later via text,
“What is the intention with the lawyer? Do I need one of my own?”
Therein lay the likely reason for her outburst.
You have a lawyer. You have taken control of your life and choices. (Recall her tirade, she felt she doesn’t have options.) Her loss of control over you and the situation is upsetting her.
Do not answer her. Let her stew. She fired you as husband. You are days away from finalizing a separation agreement, let her feel that, let her lay in the bed she’s made. Do not solve this for her.
W’s statement: Think with your HEART for once!" "Where are your emotions?! That says a lot of where she is.
You don’t think with your heart! One thinks with their brain, and feels with their heart. Well, not really. Thinking, feeling, and such, all occurs within the brain. Anyhow, this illustrates the emotional path she is on.
Love the splashing around the rain and puddles. OMG! It’s been years since my kids were young and I remember running around with them in the rain. So much fun!
Well done Dad!
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
When she comes at you with tears and anger, she’s not looking for advice or for her problems to be solved. She’s looking to be heard is all. She just wants to vent. Also, she looking for you to fight back. For a resupply of her justification.
Good job remaining calm.
It actually would be a 180 for me not to be calm, but I don't think that would be helpful. I had two thoughts in mind as she listed unhappy and hurt feelings. First, I forget what thread I recently found this in, was inserting "I FEEL" before her words and "RIGHT NOW" at the end. Second, the thought in Mars v Venus books that she needs to express all her negative feelings to sort through them. They are not meant to be taken as literal permanent positions. So, I listened and tried to hear what was behind. She wanted to be heard, understood, and not dismissed as irrational.
W: "This is NOT HORMONES! I CAN think and feel at the same time." G: "Yes. I agree and believe you."
This is in line with another Mars v Venus concepts where women process emotion and thought simultaneously while men have to context switch back and forth. This makes men much slower when both have to be done on a topic.
My W is one of the most emotionally sensitive women I've ever met. In her words, "Most people can see ~30% of what others feel. I can see ~70%." I used to refer to her as a magnifying glass. To her, all the emotional pressure all around felt important when it often wasn't. It was just magnified. She is also one of the most introspective. We almost never argued, and I rarely expressed any unhappiness. Any disappointment / recriminations from me, filtered through emotional sensitivity, and processed by extreme introspection would feel crushing to her. She would accuse and beat herself up before I would think to address an issue. So, I almost never did and so removed a needed feedback loop in our R.
Originally Posted by DnJ
Do not answer her. Let her stew. She fired you as husband. You are days away from finalizing a separation agreement, let her feel that, let her lay in the bed she’s made. Do not solve this for her.
I did not answer. I kept remembering advice to wait on replies. Things may resolve. Be sure what you reply serves your goal.
Grief when it impacts the children. S12: "Mom, mom! Is something wrong?! What's going on?! Are you OK?!" W: "No! I can't!" Door bangs. G: "S12, it's OK. This is something betweek your mother and I. YOU are OK." S12: "OK Dad. Is it only an hour before we go to my <scout like organization>?"
In original limerance W made for statements like "The kids will be fine. Kids are resilient. It's just a differt form of family. My friend Ms. T's kids were wonky for a bit when she left her H but they are fine now." Wonky for a bit? One of Ms. T's teenage daughters took to repetitively walking the neighborhoods alone at 2am for 10 miles listening to church sermons and looked anorexic.
Later on that evening S12 and I went to his troop meeting and worked on trail skills. I talked with two men I made friends with since this began. They have sons S12's age. Made tentative plans to do something with one on Sat. I showed him my church mens group planned a skeet shoot. Or perhaps we will bike ride with the kids. When I got home I noticed her vehicle present. S12 went inside while I started taking in trash cans from streetside. W came right out to me before I could finish.
W: "G, I'm sorry about my outburst earlier. I... I was afraid. When trust is broken ... we have to re-establish something. When you don't know anymore how another person will act/react. Because we've never been in something like this. I was scared...I would lose the kids. Because of my living situation." G: pause. how to validate feelings... "That would feel very scary." W: "Yes!"
There lay the reason behind the reason (loss of control). I said nothing else. I could almost hear the fulfillment of the concept in "Never Split the Difference" of getting a "Thats right!" from someone when they feel you understand where they are coming from. It worked, though I wonder if I did right.
W: Imediately walking away toward the back yard, "I have to go back in and help D17 feed the her new baby bird. D17 told me I have to go through the back door so the dogs don't bark." She is avoiding forms of D17's disaproval/emotional pressure. G: I go through the front door with no dogs barking.
g
H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
[3rd Verse] When I'm tired and thinking cold I hide in my music, forget the day And dream of a girl I used to know I closed my eyes and she slipped away She slipped away
[Chorus] It's more than a feeling (More than a feeling) When I hear that old song they used to play (More than a feeling) I begin dreaming (More than a feeling) 'Til I see Marianne walk away
There are multiple overlapping meanings here. My chest hurts and eyes tear.
Mediocre working headphones on (EarPods) on and scooping soup into a container. Lightly signing along. I’ve always liked the band Boston. S12 lightly makes fun of how I sound when there is no song he can hear. OK, OK S12, let me take the headphones off so you can hear too. Who doesn’t like singing along to Boston? Finish scooping soup and put container in the fridge…on to some dishes…”CHILDREN! 10 dishes each please!” Groans all around. Let’s see, 2 1/2 hours since getting home.
Tired when I got home from work and after standstill traffic on the toll expressway (I paid for being in standstill traffic, sigh) I noticed W’s car parked nearby. I finished my phone conversation and got my stuff out of my car. I noticed W driving away. She was sitting in her vehicle all this time? Not in the house with S12? Huh. Put my stuff down and change into shorts and T-shirt. It is warm here. D17’s baby bird greets me with obsessive chirps.
I’m hungry, tired, but I need to focus on children’s request to have more “meals dad, not just cooked ingredients.” They all seem to want different foods and I had taken to making basics they can assemble. i.e. beans, rice, fruit, veggies, etc…. “If you want meals kids, I need your help in identifying what things you will eat when WE make them. You have to help.” So, D18 has been making weekly lists of one dish each day. Mexican last week. Canadian this week. S12 and I grocery shopped for most of the ingredients the other day.
They have been helping make the dishes but Ds were out and S12 busy right now. Canadian Cheese Soup is first on the list this week. I can do that. I chop the veggies and potatoes, heat the bullion, start bacon frying, and put butter in a pot for the thickener. One of my sisters calls while I am making. A few minutes later I am: flipping bacon RIGHT NOW before it burns, mashing the potatoes and veggies as their timer dinged, stirring flour into the milk and butter (only have 2 minutes), talking to my sister, when D18 arrives home and starts sobbing because she had left food in her room and there were lots of flies. “Daaaaaad! Help!!! Now!” She must be really tired and worn out. Whew! I can do this. “Of course I will help you D18, pause on my bed and rest a minute while you wait for me.” I say goodby to my sister. Dump thickener into the soup and mash it. Chop bacon into bits and dump into soup. And finally dump in the cheese and stir. Now it can wait while I help D18.
D17 is dropped off at home. D17 and I think the soup is delicious. S12 eats a bean, rice and cheese burrito instead. D18 still is isn’t feeling well so I’ll put on my headphones and start picking up. D18 thanks me for saying I’ll put her soup into a container for her.
g
H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
It's even hard for me to type this out and express my feelings in words.
I often end up thinking in metaphors, song or poetry since there are not words. I used to sing this to W.
You are my sunshine My only sunshine You make me happy When skies are gray You’ll never know, dear How much I love you Please don’t take my sunshine away
I thought of her as this little nuclear furnace in the core of my being that would always be there through the toughest times. After W surprised me with her "in love with OM," and DB, and "Oh, I was a WAW anyway but I thought I just had to suffer before I met OM," that warmth imploded into a black hole in the core of my being. It threatened to consume me. Either I grow faster than it can destroy me or I die.
It has been a desperate struggle to grow ever since. I think I have the black hole contained now. The work however, goes on. PIES. Physical, Intellectual, Emotional, Spiritual. I acknowledge my issues since each was kind of stagnant before DB.
The irony is the following verses might well have been predictive.
I’ll always love you and make you happy If you will only say the same But if you leave me to love another You’ll regret it all someday
You told me once, dear, you really loved me And no one else could come between But now you’ve left me and love another You have shattered all my dreams
I had many dreams, although W accused me of not having a future vision. To me, all of the various dreams were of value because she was there in them. Perhaps this was too ambiguous to be attractive. Creating new ones is a slow ongoing process now. Who am I? Where to I want to be?
Also predictive, although I did not see it for what it was at the time, were our wedding vows. Mine had an element of "choosing her" for I felt my emotions were insufficient to carry me through to the end. Hers had the element of "because I love" (because I'm in love). I found out later that mine bothered her and she felt less loved. I saw hers and wondered how that was sustainable for a lifetime.
Now I see the her heavy weight put on the emotional element as a driving factor. In a gap where I did not sustain her emotions, she accepted OM's attentions to fill it.
Last year W said, "I'm sorry you were hurt in all this, you've never been heartbroken before have you?" A non-apology and to me a minimization. Divorce after 25 years side by side through all is so much more to me. It is breakage and chaos down to your very identity. What you know and feel as a result, well...I don't have the words, but maybe
Grief and Gratitude, both -
[Verse 1] If I didn't know what it hurt like to be broken Then how would I know what it feels like to be whole If I didn't know what it cuts like to be rejected Then I wouldn't know the joy of coming home
[Chorus] Maybe it's ok if I'm not ok 'Cause the One who holds the world is holding on to me Maybe it's alright if I'm not alright 'Cause the One who holds the stars is holding my whole life
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H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
Very well said, I think as men we express our inner thoughts with words followed by pure intention, if any of this is to teach us anything is that the fairer sex feels more than just words and maybe it's a sign for us to understand this perspective. As men we internalize and feel every emotion and tribulation in our lives and we tend to deal with them head on as many times we do not have a choice. That which does not kill us only makes us stronger, and in the end the universe has a way of balancing itself out
When getting the rollercoaster of bombs last year, it forced a hard look at myself. And eventually a hard look at her, but that is another story. I realized the truth of many of her complaints that came spilling out in the wake of OM's attentions. I had such belief and respect for W's judgements at the start that I took most things at face value. My self-worth plunged, I felt a failure, I had let a predator into my family, and I blamed myself.
Originally Posted by Starsky309
YOU FEEL LIKE YOU FAILED in your role as protector, and now some PREDATOR has invaded your home, your family, your finances, your MARRIAGE, and yeah . . . there can be a lot of GUILT associated with that awful feeling
But this is truth, no matter how much a WW praises OM
Originally Posted by Starsky309
Men and women that would knowingly get involved with a married woman or man, and prey upon their emotional weaknesses, ARE predators!! In every sense of the word. mad
I detest them. Do not "make friends" with them, do not expect them to deal honorably with you (for they are, by definition, DIShonorable) and do NOT take what they tell you as TRUTH!
I DID need to GAL, as I saw I had given up almost all the activities I once treasured. I had thought I was giving them up to satisfy the requirements of kids and spouse. Hmmmm... the advice is just get OUT! Away from WW. Preferably something you don't normally do and social. It will lead to things … and so it has!
Originally Posted by Sotto
GAL, GAL and more GAL...
GAL can be anything that you find absorbing, and which helps give your life structure and meaning. GAL can range from hobbies and jobs at home to Meetup groups and sporting activites. Some DBers are more extrovert, others more introvert. It's about finding what floats your boat, improves your day and helps build YOU back up again.
So, I searched out the nearest local micro-brewery and drove right on over on a Friday evening after work. I sat outside people watching, feeling bad, then messaged a prior member of the work team I oversaw. He came over and we had brews, food, and conversation about the nature of love and relationships. While there I saw a group in yellow shirts for a “run club.” I thought “Great! I used to do a lot of long distance running.” When I looked it up, I had to laugh. The club would run/walk for 2 or 3 miles to justify sitting at the pub after for a while.
The next week I came ready to meet people and “run.” I went over to the table where the small group was gathered and introduced myself. I ended up talking to Fernando and his father down from the Northeast. They were not part of the run group but just knew some of the regulars. We connected over riding bikes and random guy talk, and he also said I should come back on Tuesday nights for “Trivia Night.” I never did go running with that group! But I did get back into biking, both on and off road.
I have ended up by Fernando’s invite going biking at night with lights through the City Downtown at night with “Critical Mass” group multiple times, and then... - Mountain biking on my own on local trails, - street riding others I met through Fernando and friends (Chris, Steve, Mike, Micah, Lucian, Jeannette, Chrystal X 2, and more) at the brew house, - riding “Bikes & Beers” 36 miles and met more people, - a local bike store grand opening ride for 37 miles, - broke some spokes and after repair was done last week I looked at the time and had just enough to ride 12 miles single track trails through the woods - Feels Good.
I also came back on a Tuesday night for what ever "Trivia Night" was to be. Fernando waved me over to the table his team occupied. I've been back most weeks since as this group has adopted me. LOL. This version of a trivia game has the bar handing out print outs which take about two hours to answer the topical questions anounced over the loud speakers. It is an all ages sort of place and about 15 teams compete each Tuesday with laughter and poking fun at each other. On some weeks, D18 and D17 will join me for an hour as D17's gymnastics is nearby. They do much better at naming modern music. I bribe the kids with a sandwich and craft soda.
To further get out of my comfort zone, this week I brought the trivia group a blueberry pie. Well, backing up, on Saturday I took S12 along with a friend and his son to go early season blueberry picking. We came home with two gallons of blueberries. Eat some, freeze some, and make pies with some of course. I made one pie on Tuesday evening after work to bring with me to the trivia group. One of the group sometimes works at the brewery and retrieved a knife from the kitchen to cut the pie. About 10 people got a slice including the two guys working the kitchen for the brewery. I think they were surprised and happy. Feels Good. Oh, and that night's special, homemade pot-roast sandwich, from the kitchen was delicious.
Old favorite long put aside - biking, baking. Out of my comfort zone - socializing new people, trivia, brew pub.
Gratitude for my father who sent me one of his expensive carbon fiber mountain bikes. Gratitude to Fernando and co. who welcomed a stranger.
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H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
I had such belief and respect for W's judgements at the start that I took most things at face value.
I hear that! I had complete faith in my then W and took her poisonous words as gospel.
Self worth really takes a hit. Confidence is shaken/shattered and one is full of self doubts. It takes time to transmute such poison.
Well done getting out there and enjoying things. Awesome job, that’s quite a few miles of biking. I chuckled at the “run” club’s strategy/justifications. (I could get behind such. lol) Keep bribing the daughters for trivia answers. Oh my, modern music, social media icons, and such - yeah, I’m out of my depth I found out during such a trivia game.
Keep moving forward. You got this g.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
What a great post. If any of the others who are currently going through this, that is how to DB.
Originally Posted by grok
I DID need to GAL...Hmmmm... the advice is just get OUT! Away from WW. Preferably something you don't normally do and social. It will lead to things … and so it has!...I went over to the table where the small group was gathered and introduced myself......I've been back most weeks since as this group has adopted me.
PS: Glad you found some of Starsky's post. Lots of wisdom.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
What a great post. If any of the others who are currently going through this, that is how to DB.
Thanks for the validation. Also, well, support of the type you can get here, since it is almost non-existent in person.
Lest anyone reading along think this just happened easy in sequence, let me expand a little. I like people and can converse easy, but am always feeling awkward socially. When the bomb dropped I was already a sort of depressed and withdrawn into my own little world. I WASN'T present with W and kids like I needed to be as H and Father. The bomb just fragmented me as I was not in a good place to start with.
Within a month or so I did start taking my bike out alone on the trails for exercise and get out time. Then started walking trails occasionally with two other dads I had been barely acquainted with. Little steps. It took from end of March to September to recover myself enough to head out to that local brewery. I was finally comfortable enough bring that pie for all to share. Even then I would have thoughts of "will they like it? or think I'm strange?"
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
PS: Glad you found some of Starsky's post. Lots of wisdom.
If you ever wonder about how the work on this forum affects peoples lives, I'm here to tell it helped me immensely. I found these bits of wisdom because I started with the stickies and worked my way back. The threads of quotes and Sandi2's were especially valuable. Every time I found one that resonated, I would track it back to the source and read through. All those 2X4s to other people helped ME! Thank you.
Easter Blessings to you all.
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H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
I stopped by IKEA last week to try and find some bits and pieces and for some inexpensive lamps for my home. I picked out a TOKABO Table for D18 (mushroom look too cute with her style), a SOLBO Table lamp for D17 (she loves owls), and a TVARFOT Table lamp for S12 (matching his bedside). Then for me I grabbed a BARLAST Table lamp at 1/4 the price of theirs (cheapest of the cheap), after all, it will work and I sacrifice for them right?
Hmmm. I thought about it. No. That actually wasn’t what I wanted at all. I had just dismissed myself and my wants. I wanted the cool steampunk looking bedside lamp that could dim to an orange flame like glow. The TARNABY Table lamp. So I got both. The TARNABY looks great at my bedside and dimming it way down before bed makes me feel comfortable. I am happier. I have been putting ME aside for a very long time. This may be small, but recognizing my own wants/needs and articulating or doing something about it … has been missing.
Disconnects - journaled/vented here to have them NOT stick in my mind. in the last few weeks (keep in mind she is smart and has commanded military units).
W: Are we doing the final mediation reschedule with or without attorneys?
She is driving this train. Why is she asking me to control the process?
W: Taking D18 to female motorcycle event on her birthday, if that’s okay. It’s a three hour drive to and from. All comers welcome.
Why are you asking my permission? She is her own adult now and makes her own decisions, though she lives with me and D17 and S12.
W: Did you cancel insurance on my van? ‘Cause that would make sense.
G: No.
I didn’t say - because dummy, I’m still liable as we are married and I want a vehicle for which I am paying the loan on to be protected.
W: Also, I’m not on your workplace health insurance anymore right?
G: No, you are still on the family coverage.
I didn’t say - because dummy, we currently MARRIED and don’t have a settlement and I’d be liable in any court anyway. You’d have no other protection right now. Don’t you know how any of this works?
W via text message: Kids, sorry I couldn't come by to see you today. I had to do laundry and chores. And I have class tonight. I'll be there tomorrow to give hugs.
Laundry and dishes for one person take the entire day?
Last night - W: Goodnight kids, this is a short goodnight. I HAVE to go get my schoolwork done so I can spend more time with you tomorrow while your dad is away on business for a couple days.
The school work is for an optional 2nd Masters degree in a non-income producing subject. I checked the house cameras today to keep tabs on D17 and S12 while I am gone. (Cameras - With zero expectations of W, I wanted to be able to remotely check on kids who are without adults present a lot now.) She spent ~ 1 hr there today in short touch and go visits until just before bedtime tonight.
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Last edited by grok; 04/02/2402:31 AM.
H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
As to my WW's EA at least, addiction, withdrawal or not, what follows, and feels. Though it doen't change what I needs/must do.
Today's writing was triggered by three song lyrics that fit my thoughts because again, sometimes the right words to describe something are not easy to come by. The first song is about heroin addiction but the parallels struck me ... the title about where many of us were in our R and M when this kicks off, verse 1 about what our spouse was feeling, and then where we are going and feeling.
Running to stand still
[Verse 1] And so she woke up Woke up from where she was lyin' still Said I gotta do something About where we're goin' Step on a steam train Step out of the drivin' rain, maybe Run from the darkness in the night
[Verse 2] Sweet the sin Bitter the taste in my mouth I see seven towers But I only see one way out You gotta cry without weeping, talk without speaking Scream without raising your voice You know I took the poison from the poison stream Then I floated out of here
Affairs are like addiction...PEAs... fantasy...
Originally Posted by Zues126
We all live in our own realities, our own narratives, our own imaginations.
There are things that help keep those realities in check. A fixed external belief system that doesn't sway in the breeze of emotions. A good mix of friends that aren't afraid to call us on our bs. Self reflection and humility to know better than to trust ourselves too much.
I think WWs have an easy time getting hooked on fantasy. A fantasy is like a fire. One person starts the spark. Then the more people go along with it, the more fuel is on the fire. And when a WAW rewrites history or blames LBH, it's not hard to get support.
...
It's an addiction, and it's one of the toughest kinds because it isn't as tangible. It's not like heroin where it's pretty clear that if there is usage there's a problem. It's more like overeating, where it's blurry. We have to eat, but when is it an issue? So too with fantasy, there are blurry lines that make it easy for people to rationalize away. Of course, once they are shacking up with other people and walking out on their families it's a little more noticeable, but even then there is always a spin. "He's not the OM breaking up a marriage...I was being abused, my self was being destroyed, LBH was killing me, I was dying inside, OM was the support I needed to escape that trauma and preserve myself..." Oh, I didn't realize! You poor thing. Let me help you move your things into OM's apartment!
And so I am here. Feeling all the things you all understand. I feel like
Originally Posted by Mozza
As sandi2 said, past beliefs of the WW are no guide for her current behavior.
I'm upset that my W mentioned S when it was a done deal. I would have taken an ultimatum, a break, a deadline � anything telling me that she had reached her breaking point. She wrote me this email about feeling miserable, but it was in the heat of an argument and she had her share of blame in it, so I took her messages as part of this discussion. I realize now that I was blind, that it was more important than that. What would have opened my eyes, and did, was the S word. She never told me until her decision was made, in a haste.
as I had no idea of the amount of unhappiness that was under the surface. My W said to me this year - "I would go into the other room and cry. I never told you." "I never stomped my foot or thew a fit" "your heart was in the right place but you were too nice and logical, so I stopped trying to tell you" "my friends agreed with me about you but weren't sure about OM" "how long was I supposed to wait?"
I feel deceived. And for W to choose an EA and D as the solution? I feel like vows and commitment were supposed to take us over these difficulties.
Originally Posted by Zues126
The reason vows and commitment are so important to me is that they provide standards when our own standards might be suspect.
Kind of like laws, religious beliefs...they keep us in check and tell us the right way to behave when we feel like being destructive or selfish. We do what we believe is right as much of the time as we can.
Wedding vows are the same. "for worse, in sickness". All in the vows as FULL DISCLOSURE that things will be difficult. But that we are committing to remain true through that.
If the vows are just words then it becomes a matter of when we feel like leaving. To me that's not a marriage. That's a ride in the sunshine until it inevitably starts to rain.
I maintain that anyone that adds a "but" to the statement "I don't believe in divorce..." truly DOES believe in divorce. I do not.
The sad part and why this touched a nerve with me is that everyone is willing to make those vows, and there isn't a good way to tell who means them and who doesn't. It's unfair to those that mean them. It's like becoming friends with someone and saying "I promise I won't ever physically harm you if I'm angry" and them agreeing. But then they get angry and punch you in the face, and when you say "we agreed not to do that" they say "well, I didn't know I'd get THIS angry, if I'm this angry then I can hit you".
But now? Once a WW is there, it will be a long process out of it. No matter what the conclusion. Mine is steady on pressing through D.
Originally Posted by Cadet
Overall I think that if you look at the stages of grief that those need to be gone through by all parties.
So the one having the affair will need to grieve the loss of the affair partner, and if they then decide to try to reconcile they must grieve the loss of the marriage before they can reconcile.
So you have Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Withdrawal, Acceptance.
Neither partner can not avoid this, nor can you press any buttons, or have any magic fixes.
It seems she believes her feelings leave her no choice. Feelings and minimizing emotional pain seem to drive her behavior. Early on I asked her, "Would you have chosen this if not for OM?" She screwed up her face and slowly replied, "No, I thought I would just have to bear it and suffer [not being paid attention to]."
Why would you have to bear it? If it was important then STOMP YOUR FEET, or just all the looking into things that I have done this year. After knowing to look for them, I have found dozens of ways she could have reached me. And found many anti-patterns of ours in "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" books.
And the real kicker for me? My Ds were not nearly as surprised as me. That has been crushing. How did I not see? Though they did not see the other side where she offered me private praise leading me to think we were OK at least.
[Verse 1: Braille] When it's a quarter past midnight And the grey skies fade to black The waves splash and set me off track So my vessel might crash or collapse When I'm attacked And start wrestling in my head with these bad Memories from my past I'm aware of my guilt, overwhelmed …… Yeah, no matter the weather I face, Lord you never forsake My fragile life is safe under your sovereign grace
[Verse 2: Odd Thomas] At some point every human looks right in the eyes of agony And through the tragedy asks himself how can this happen to me? You might be the type with enough insight to hold On for your dear life but slip because your grip is not as Tight as you might like You ain't immune to it, naw, and if You true to yourself then you ain't new to it …… All these sinking ships around me, He surrounds me and he Anchors me with his grace abounding
[Hook: Josh Garrels] Anchor of my soul, You sustain, You sustain When I'm in the storm, You remain, You remain
I guess I’m feeling melancholy again. Grief. Though I’m excited and a bit scared as I sit here in the motor vehicles office finishing this post … D17 and I are getting her learner driver permit. Gratitude.
(It is the oddest feeling to see my WW post on social media similar themes when she is the one with an EA and choosing D)
- Staying away from Obliteration while drinking "Liquid Death" flavored water. Teleworking and evaluating 35 technology proposals. -
[Chorus] Ashes circle the drain And now it’s all that’s left All that’s left of me Sink my teeth in the pain Watching the world go numb And I’m just one step From obliteration
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H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
Friday night D17 and W had a blowup. Again. D17 is the most morally legalistic, often rigidly fragile, and most needy for mom’s attention. She had a gymnastics meet Saturday and has been a bit on edge about it because of an injured foot. She could only compete in 2 of 4 events. She is also one to freak out for a while when things don’t go right in the lead up but has grace under pressure during.
W has always done up her hair for meets and often the night before. W came over late, ~9:30p at D17’s request . A few minutes later while W was talking to S12, D17 shrieked in upset and W got fearful, then angry when she found out it was just about hair tangles. Words were said and W went out the door in high emotion saying “I can’t do this anymore, I can’t do this anymore.”
Ten minutes later she came back in to talk with D17. More words were said. I hear D17 in shaky tears say “I need space, let me be, I can’t talk about this right now, let me be, leave me alone right now” and she locks herself in the bathroom. W comes downstairs, where I am attempting to be the calm in the storm with S12, and just stares in emotion and anger at me. I remained calm and silent, giving her full attention, and waiting for her to say something. After a minute W just stomped out the door. I pray I did this right. I have gone very dim since last September.
I went over to where D17 was and said through the door, “I’m here when you want. I’m here if you need hugs.” D17, “Is mom gone?” G, “I don’t know D17. She went out the door.” D17 came out for a hug and explained about her hair and her concern and emotions dealing with it. D17, “Daddy, can you do my hair? I just can’t reach part of it”. G, “I can, though I’m not that experienced at it like your mom.” D17, “Well, maybe my sister D18 can do it.” I carefully said nothing about W, just tried to be the rock D17 could count on if she wanted my help or an emotional safe place. I’m not coming between W and D now.
D18 arrived home at this point, “I talked to mom on the way in. She is out in her car crying and beating herself up about this.” D17, “Um, is she coming in? Can you do my hair instead?” D18, “I don’t know, and yes I can do your hair if you want me to.” D17, “I don’t know. I don’t know. What does mom want to do?“ D18, “Just tell me if you want me to do it or not.” D17, “I don’t KNOW! Did mommy say anything?” D18 Clearly does not want to be a go between. D17 Clearly doesn’t want to offend mom but doesn’t want to deal with turmoil.
I take the big dog out for evening walk while they discuss, as is was late and well past time. W is sitting in her vehicle staring at her phone. I walk the usual 1 mile and when I get back W is in the house. Just inside the door, D17 meets me saying shhhhhhh and motions me two walk the other two dogs. I hear D18 and W in the kitchen. I hear W sobbing, “ … 8 to 10 YEARS! 8 to 10 YEARS!” D18, “Mom, you haven’t let it go. You have a whole life to live.” I wonder how much of what W is saying is the WW script and how much is a real critique. It is hard to tell. She has legitimate complaints about things I just did not understand. Though never of the heart or intention.
I take the other two dogs out for 1 mile again. On my way back, I see W walking alone down the street. I stop and let the dogs greet her. W, “I’m sorry I was rude/out of line before.” G gently accepting, “OK.” W nods and continues on her walk alone. There appear to be tears.
When I get back D17’s hair was done. I get all three kids to head to their night time routines. I touch base with each and say goodnight to each when in bed… 2 hours later than normal. When I check outside before going to bed myself, W’s car is gone.
My heart hurts. I sleep poorly.
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H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
Man I don't know how you do it with kids. You are being the rock for your kids In a time or turmoil. It seems much like others in the situation that the kids end up with a better understanding or the situation and more maturity than the WW. To me it seems she's lashing out and not knowing how to deal with her situation. Emotions leading behaviour. Tbh I somehow think that hormonal changes have a lot to do with this behaviour and they just don't know how to manage or deal with it. Keep being the rock for your daughters and show them the demeanor they will appreciate, not that it feels like you guys are teaming up on ww, you are showing her stability and balance when she is in a state of perpetual turmoil.
You did well. Good job remaining calm; there were enough emotions running high with W and D17. Also good to see you not offering solutions or trying to fix things.
Let W have lots of space.
D17, and the other kids, will have anger and frustration towards mom. However, for a while, they will not be able to risk loosing Mom and therefore will not say too much to her. Kids unfairly lash out at the stable parent, until they get a better handle on themselves and their situation. It’s unfair and perfectly normal.
Be there for them, just like you did. Offering to help with her hair was good. “I will do my best, just tell me what to do, as I don’t have such long beautiful hair I’ve never done this before”. Keeping Mom’s behaviour/actions out of conversation and/or any comparing, is a good and calming tacit.
You are a living example for your children. The strong and stable parent.
Well done Dad.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Thanks catman and D, I'll have further thoughts later. In the mean time I wrote this morning while making breakfast for the kids, after walking big dog at dawn . D17 had fed the baby bird, a green cheek conure whose feathers are only half grown in, and gone back to sleep. --- I woke up at 6a Saturday morning to get D17 up for her gymnastics meet. I help with feeding her baby bird and then take big dog out for his morning 1 mile walk. W arrived 7a to pick up D17. I say hello to W and goodby to D17. It is one of her last meets this year.
D17, “Daddy, you can come see me if you want to. Just if you want to though. You don’t have to.”
I haven’t been to many. Mostly just W takes her because their cost structure is expensive for any family or visitors. This one was $15 to park each car and $20 per guest or family besides the gymnast. I ponder how important it is to D17 to see me there. I’m often times too literal. Does she really mean it’s not that important and optional? Or is this child code for I really wish you would be there to show your support? I decide I’ll go and see her, though I don’t tell anyone but D18 to make it a surprise. Feels more fun that way.
I quickly get ready and drive the 40 minutes to the meet. I spot W across the Arena sitting alone, scrolling on her phone, with no one nearby, her bag in the seat next to her, though I’m pretty sure she knows some of the other gym moms. I make my way over and sit next to her bag. W, “OH, hello. D17 is over there. You can always tell because she has the biggest hair bun!” She does have waist length hair. We watch in mostly silence with some small talk about the gymnastics. I pull out my laptop and work on some work expense claims I had not been able to get to during the week. I make her chuckle and roll her eyes when I explain how badly the corporate claims system is designed. i.e. just as bad some of the government systems we have both experienced in the past.
D17 forfeits two events gracefully because of her injured ankle. The other two she does well at. She waves happily at us. W, “G, would you like to take D17 out for lunch after? Instead of me?” G, “sure, I’d be happy to” I’m not sure of meanings here. I decide I won’t try to understand. I’ll just be happy with D17’s company. …. a little while later … W, “You know I didn’t mean to imply anything by that. Like you don’t do things with her. Just your and her schedules often don’t match up. Just wanted to offer the opportunity. I know you and S12 went biking.” G, “Its OK. I didn’t take it as anything.”
I wonder if W understands we do spend lots of time together as all three live with me. We go do things together in various mixes of Dad and kids from grocery shopping, to bike rides, to blueberry picking, to going to the beach. Though, making space for individual child time is harder as I am working full time and keeping up with the household alone.
When W does come over to spend most weekday daytimes in the house with them she does their schooling and brings food sometimes (gas station takeout, quick bake pizza, or treats usually). W also has been doing most of the medical appointments and D17’s daytime transportation.
D17 and I pick up food to eat on the way home. She navigates the app on my phone to order and picks our lunch. After eating she falls asleep as the car is warm and cozy.
Afterword - We stopped to get plumbing supplies for a leaking toilet I’m fixing and then also picked out three tomato plants for D17’s garden.
After Afterword - W stops in an hour after we get back and makes S12 some instant ramen noodles with an egg on the bottom. She doesn't usually come over on weekends except to say goodnight. After she leaves, S12 says the noodles and egg didn't turn out like he expected and asks if he can throw them out. I say sure, sometimes the experiment doesn't work out like we want.
g
H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
Not much I can add, other than that my situation is practically a mirror of yours. I guess it's practically a mirror of a lot of other people's on this site as well.
Screenshotted that Zues126 quote on marriage vows. It expresses my views better than anything else I've read.
Me 59 W 47 T 26 M 23 S18, S14 BD May 2023 D filed June 2023 OM1 confirmed: December 2023 OM2 confirmed: October 2023
D17, and the other kids, will have anger and frustration towards mom. However, for a while, they will not be able to risk loosing Mom and therefore will not say too much to her. Kids unfairly lash out at the stable parent, until they get a better handle on themselves and their situation. It’s unfair and perfectly normal.
I"ve been thinking about this and I'm slowly connecting the D18 and D17 behaviors with these thoughts. S12 just doesn't know enough about the "why" and W's justifications. D18 knows by far the most. After initially announcing things to Ds, W stopped talking to Ds about anything related about six months in.
Some time back I talked to D18 and told her a little bit about W's relationship with OM as he is one of the bosses at her work. She is old enough to be on her own if she wished, car and license, has a full time job, and so was able to risk. She gave W a talking to on how "toxic" to everyone her EA with OM was. D18, I'm proud of her (Gratitude)- "Dad, we know more than you think." "She stopped telling us anything because she knows what I think" After one of the blowups, "Dad, just give D17 hugs and hold her. I'll help her deal with mom. After all, mom taught me how to read people and deal with their emotional manipulation"
With all the relationship books I've been reading and two Ds, I've been attempting how to think and act when female emotions are slinging about from them (lashing out). Absorb, accept, and let it pass through. Don't take it as logical serious. Don't solve it. It is the "right now" feelings. Validate. Be safe to express it to. If it is about W (Grief), stick to "I know, I understand, and that is hard or sad or difficult." ***** Gratitude for today's encouragement popping up in my playlist. I found this band last fall, well outside my normal listening habits. Then found they had a concert in town, so I took the kids to go see at a local venue. GAL and something I hadn't done in 15 years.
Connecting thoughts often expressed here - You will be OK and Live in the Light
Oh it's gonna be ok, with a little of faith Oh it's gonna be ok, with a little bit of fate Oh it's gonna be ok, with a little bit of grace Oh it's gonna be ok, with a little bit of praise
Now your living, in the music Now your laughing, with a new grin You're so alive, alive (Running under rainbows) Now your singing, what the truth is Now your dancing, looking foolish You found the light, the light
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H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
I did say I had more thoughts. Never enough time to write. Today I took the time for myself after work to ride my bike 20 miles with two other guys I’m just getting acquainted with from a FB local group. Then a couple hours of kids and chores. Now it is midnight. Ugh.
Originally Posted by Catman19
Man I don't know how you do it with kids.
Because they are wonderful kids. Lots of self sufficiency and values taught them by W! It's more about just being there for them. Saying Yes when they ask to do something with you, just qualify time and place availability. Like this:
True story yesterday after work D18, "Dad, I want to get more cool matchbox cars! Can you go with me?" G, "Of course! Let me finish the promised computer game with S12, then eat something quick, then we will go." D18, "Daaaaaaad, but I want to go now!" G, "but wouldn't it be better if we all went?" D18, "That's true, D17 and S12 need to get off their butts and out of the house too. Lets go you two! Dad, you have to drive and spend your gas." And so we did.
Originally Posted by Catman19
You are being the rock for your kids In a time or turmoil.
I am now, though I think W would have a complaint that I left it far too much all to her before. "I give and nobody gives back to ME!" Lest readers think it is all WW issues, there was an imbalance there of which I am ashamed. I have re-bonded tight with all three in this crisis though. It was either chose to step up or choose to fail as Father.
Originally Posted by Catman19
It seems much like others in the situation that the kids end up with a better understanding or the situation and more maturity than the WW. To me it seems she's lashing out and not knowing how to deal with her situation. Emotions leading behavior.
To W's credit, she is the one who gave them much of the insight they are using on her now.
Originally Posted by Catman19
I somehow think that hormonal changes have a lot to do with this behavior and they just don't know how to manage or deal with it. .
This is true and one of many things that are affecting behavior. Women in her family start menopause early. She has said to me perimenopause has started.
I look at like a function of combining waves, all coinciding to peak at the same time.
Add in there a crisis of purpose (i.e. MLC) since retiring from the military reserves. She outright told me this last year that since that time she has been bouncing around without guard rails or purpose after that retirement. Somehow she could not figure that Wife, Mom, Homemaker, Homeschool teacher, and a number of other roles she had taken on were sufficient purpose.
Add in the over the top flattery and attention from OM just as she is reaching the big 50 and feeling the effects of age. I’ve talked to at least three other women who have said that age is very tough for women. They described desperately wanting to feel desirable again. Last year W said to me, “I need someone who needs me and can’t live without me.”
Add in my own issues of long shallow depression. I react by slowly withdrawing from all those around me…into my Cave. Where in hindsight I feel OK about myself as I do little non-risky things.
And so on… as I work this year on understanding and righting myself.
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Last edited by grok; 04/12/2404:25 AM.
H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
Not much I can add, other than that my situation is practically a mirror of yours.
And many others. See how many “fill in the blanks” similarities there are in Jack Three Beans story reposted by AmyC. They both had a lot of experience and insights to share and well worth your time to read.
Originally Posted by AmyC
Jack's Story
Once upon a time, Jack was complacent in his marriage and home life. He did the bare minimum, as did his wife. As parents they were “there" but not really there for their two wonderful boys. Jack lost himself from the troubles, cares and boredom of the world in video games. Jack's wife lost herself in the attention of Jack's friend.
That was a year and a half ago, more or less. My story is much like anyone else's. We could make a form and leave blank spaces here for all of the new people.
A year plus into this I can identify here now. It is uncomfortable. Where did she go?
Originally Posted by AmyC
Now Jack, doesn't know if he wants her in his life. The things that he used to be able to swallow stick in his throat. He sometimes see the friend he used to have, but mostly it is just this person sitting across from him, this stranger who looks like someone he used to know.
Even when you may feel like you have nothing to say, simply thank you for stopping by. For me, when we do this it says someone understands, someone cares, you are not alone. I started in Lamentations, feeling alone, feeling like my faults were the sum of things, and feeling like OM's power loomed large.
Look, LORD, and see how I have become dishonored. Is this nothing to you, all you who pass by? Look and see: Is there any grief like my grief dealt out to me, by which the LORD afflicted me in the time of his fierce wrath? He sent fire from on high, making it penetrate my bones. He stretched out a net at my feet, forcing me to turn back. He made me desolate; I'm fainting all day long. The yoke of my sins was bound on, fastened together by his hand. They settled on my neck; he caused my strength to fail. The LORD placed me in the power of those I cannot resist.
Of course these are not the TRUTH, but often how we FEEL at the time. Now, well, I can see from your story and others back through the archives - I am not alone, my faults are not a reason to walk away, and OM, well he is at minimum dishonorable and selfish. My WW may give him power over herself, but that is not MY responsibility and I do not have to justify myself to the almighty for it.
Originally Posted by Sunflyer
Zues126 quote on marriage vows. It expresses my views better than anything else I've read.
And me. And what it is immensely frustrating that all I read here and in books about an EA or PA suggests the emotions override the vows, values, and everything else. I grieve at the lost time and effort that could have been spent repairing and healing. There I go with logic! Sandi2, FightingFit, AmyC, …. and other ladies who gave their inside experience with affairs and MLC, shows logic and doing what is right don’t matter to those in it.
My W said to me, "I just want to get through this with the minimum amount of pain." ... from me, OM, OM's wife, our kids, OM's kids?, herself ... It was not about what was right or vows or anything else. When told some of my story, others described it as running away behaviors. Running, running away from pain and unhappiness. A very MLC type behavior.
This is hard to comprehend (to grok) for me. It took me four years to marry my W when she was ready much earlier. She was an emotional mess for the first two years and co-dependent on her mother. I worked through that with her with open ended listening and empathy. I saw the promise in her. For me, I had to work through the question “could I commit permanently? Could I commit for life through the worst I could imagine?” I only said “I do” AFTER being able to answer “yes.”
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Last edited by grok; 04/13/2403:09 PM.
H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
And many others. See how many “fill in the blanks” similarities there are in Jack Three Beans story reposted by AmyC. They both had a lot of experience and insights to share and well worth your time to read.
Yep, a lot of similarities. Also reading through that perimenopausal stuff in your situation rang a lot of bells. The ages of your W and mine basically the same. Mine now postmenopausal.
Originally Posted by grok
Now, well, I can see from your story and others back through the archives - I am not alone, my faults are not a reason to walk away, and OM, well he is at minimum dishonorable and selfish. My WW may give him power over herself, but that is not MY responsibility and I do not have to justify myself to the almighty for it.
Absolutely. That mess is on her side of the street. You need only worry about yours. Coming to this realization relieved me of taking more blame than I needed to.
Originally Posted by grok
And me. And what it is immensely frustrating that all I read here and in books about an EA or PA suggests the emotions override the vows, values, and everything else. I grieve at the lost time and effort that could have been spent repairing and healing. There I go with logic!
Exactly. The person being left is the fixer. They want to repair things. The person walking out is fueled purely on emotion, so logic will not reach them.
Originally Posted by grok
It took me four years to marry my W when she was ready much earlier. She was an emotional mess for the first two years and co-dependent on her mother. I worked through that with her with open ended listening and empathy. I saw the promise in her. For me, I had to work through the question “could I commit permanently? Could I commit for life through the worst I could imagine?” I only said “I do” AFTER being able to answer “yes.”
Obviously, things were not always ideal for you any more than they were always ideal for her. Yet you did not turn to someone else when it was difficult.
Me 59 W 47 T 26 M 23 S18, S14 BD May 2023 D filed June 2023 OM1 confirmed: December 2023 OM2 confirmed: October 2023
Continuing GAL… I went to a mens night movie with a friend at his church. He is someone I didn’t know before this last year, but have made the effort to get acquainted with. Our sons are good friends. This is the first time he has asked me to go do something.
Attraction, hypergamy, etc… The mens night was showing the movie “The Hill” and the man whose life it is based on was a guest. Kind of a melodramatic true story and really pulls your emotions around when they are already raw. There were a number of parts I noted, but one sticks in my mind. The young baseball player Ricky Hill has upcoming tryouts for the Major League. Because of his injuries and degenerative disease, this risks being in a wheelchair the rest of his life. He is deciding to give up his dream so as not to risk it. His girlfriend tells him she will only stick around for the man pursuing his dream, NOT for one who picks the safe and stable route. He, the man, must maintain his mission in life or she walks….
Embracing limbo, uncertainty …. Figuring out how to enjoy the the present when the life I thought I had has been nuked. The children living with me has been my exhausting blessing. Now they usually come to me for all the little things. W and D18 were out on a 3 day trip for D18 who has an upcoming birthday this weekend. Did a shopping trip with D17 and found a prom dress for her. Double checked with my sisters and they approved my/her choice. I think I was the only father within shouting distance LOL. Then did more shopping with D17 for D18’s birthday, ended up with glitter on me and exercising my pretty pretty princess skills.
I’m finding The Beauty Between.
Painting the world to be hopeless Painting it perfect and fine Put what I want on the canvas Every color my design
How do I hold all of the discord? All of my answers collide Fighting for progress in quicksand There's no truth between the pride
Nobody sees all the pieces Tricky to balance a beast I am a pendulum swinging Still, I know You're holding me
When the sky is falling, when life is a dream I fortunately fall into the beauty between Only God above me, painting my scene I fortunately fall into the beauty between
And on my bedside table The Beauty of the In-Between: Finding God in the Silence, the Struggle, and the Places In-Between by Matthew Nelson. I’ll let you know. “The Beauty of the In-Between is about learning to fully embrace the space between where you are and where you want to be. It’s about embracing God's process; the ups and downs, zigzags, uncertainties, struggles, detours, seasons of doubt, and the waiting.“
This is difficult because All the emotions.
Waiting for the sunrise, To see what we'd do Would we be strong, Could we be true? Dreaming in the downtime, With promise to prove Moments to pass, Pass into view
Ooh... All the emotions
Continuing the upset series…. W texts she is coming over to say goodnight to kids but will stay outside to make it quick and not have dogs and kids all bouncing around. I take a tired and emotional D18 to walk the dogs but when I arrive back W has gone into house. Dogs get agitated and tired D18 has minor tiff with D17 who won’t let the slight go. I start to address the issue of the upset though not fix their dispute. (D17 later remarked, yes, I don’t like it when people try to fix my problems.). W however, then jumps in with both feet to address and critique their relationship skills. I take S12 to get ready for bed and remove us from the discussion resulting. D18 walks out eventually and lays down on my bed asking for a hug. It took an hour but W and D17 eventually conclude with smiles. S12 brushes his teeth and them also comes and lays on my bed.
Aside on kids behavior towards W…. After getting a goodnight from W, the children will go about their night routines upstairs and go to bed without further contact with W. She exits alone, no kids at the door, after taking care of an Angora rabbit of hers. (She had a second Angora rabbit, but she did not take care of it enough and it died a month ago.)
Aside on W’s new project, again…. W piped up about dog training again. After taking big dog for only one training session she has not gone back to continue, so far. Plans seem to rapidly rotate and evolve. A few days ago W, “G, if it is OK with you I will take big dog for training. OH, I mean as the dog I will use to be trained as a dog trainer.” Oh, … yet another job type? Good thing I zeroed expectations of her months ago.
Still, it feels like Failure
Life will come our way, It has only just begun The world will die alone, The frail will fall below Time will take our place, We return it back to one The calm before the cold, The long and lonely road
Look for the light that leads me home Tired of feeling lost, tired of letting go Tear the whole world down, tear the whole world down Failure
Tonight's GAL, off to the brew pub for trivia night. I haven't been able to make it for two weeks. Business travel and then D17 and S12's graduation exercise from their homeschool coop.
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H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
Add in the over the top flattery and attention from OM just as she is reaching the big 50 and feeling the effects of age. I’ve talked to at least three other women who have said that age is very tough for women. They described desperately wanting to feel desirable again. Last year W said to me, “I need someone who needs me and can’t live without me.”
I get the same impression about age. My W does not handle it well at all. Worries over every gray hair, gets it dyed as soon as the roots start to grow out. Had cosmetic surgery last year (breast lift/reduction and work on her "flabby" arms). Constantly obsessed about her weight and body image as well (bariatric patient, and I've read that being married to one considerably increases the likelihood of divorce. I wasn't aware of that before).
“I need someone who needs me and can’t live without me.” Realize that these are the words of someone who has a hard time finding happiness and that purpose they seek within themselves. They seek validation from others; otherwise they question their self-worth. They are feeling desperation. They will be vulnerable to affairs. It is better to feel one's worth inherently than to rely on others to reflect it.
Your W should realize that it is good to replace the word "need" with "want." And I think being someone who "can't live without" her is too big a burden to place on you or, for that matter, anyone. I am learning that I can live without W, even if it is not the path I wanted or chose. I would not want any partner of mine to think that they can't live without me. Enjoy what I can offer while I am here; then later dance on my grave (if I have one; I'm planning that my remains end up elsewhere).
Me 59 W 47 T 26 M 23 S18, S14 BD May 2023 D filed June 2023 OM1 confirmed: December 2023 OM2 confirmed: October 2023
“I need someone who needs me and can’t live without me.” Realize that these are the words of someone who has a hard time finding happiness and that purpose they seek within themselves. They seek validation from others; otherwise they question their self-worth. They are feeling desperation. They will be vulnerable to affairs. It is better to feel one's worth inherently than to rely on others to reflect it.
This has been an on and off issue for a long time. From what I have been learning this year, most women need more external validation than I thought. I had thought her stronger internally...after all we both came up though a similar military experience which toughens you.
We even were in the same same unit (different years) in initial officer schooling. The unit known for bringing up all the oddballs. We met at our first assignment through an unlikely series of events...call it a miracle where two personalities you would not normally associate with military service were put together and found they were aligned in lots of interests and almost every value.
The following message sequence was from just under three years ago. A couple years after retiring from military reserves because of persistent health issues (could no longer pass the fitness test). W is closest to an INFJ, feels like she has to jump in and help any friend that has needs, and never asks for help when she needs it.
G: <heart emoji>
W: I want to not be here. I am just one big mistake. W: I think it all boils down to this: I haven’t won anything for years. I have been at the bottom of the barrel for years, since about 2016 when I switched to the job in Alabama. I feel like I do very little right, that I keep helping other people win but no one helps me except you guys. W: Individually it’s a minor mishap W: But with everything else for ages it just feels like life is mediocre and no fun and isn’t going to go anywhere. And I actually have things so good other people would die to have what I have. But I’m tired of humiliation and last place W: I’m tired of stupid stuff I feel like my friends wouldn’t hug me just laugh at me or one up me or tell me how talented they all are or how many millions of kids they attract to their troops or how they have pristine houses or win win win off the back of my encouragement and always be there. W: Am I that way to others? I think that’s what I need to focus on is how can I be better to others especially the kids.
G: From the book listening to... “There is a quote from her writing in the book:
“And this is wisdom in a weary land; ask nothing, shut your teeth upon your need, “SELVA OSCURA,” JOY DAVIDMAN”.
It is this image of shutting your teeth upon your needs that speaks to me of the same problem. How many women quietly suffer in the world in this way, I wonder?
The book was "Becoming Mrs. Lewis" by Patti Callahan, a biography written in the form of a historical novel. Joy Davidman, an accomplished author in her own right, was C.S. Lewis wife for four years before dying of cancer.
I showed this quote to an officer who served with her. He found it not matching reality...that she had more success than most of her peers.
I also note she says no one helps her but me and the kids. The complaint this year was she gave and gave and I didn't give back.
Originally Posted by Sunflyer
Your W should realize that it is good to replace the word "need" with "want." And I think being someone who "can't live without" her is too big a burden to place on you or, for that matter, anyone.
The need to feel desired above all seems to have overridden everything else right now. To the point where, to my stunned disbelief, last year I heard from W "he said he would leave his wife for me" and "he felt like killing himself in the past but I gave him hope" and she did not see it as red flags, but as the most amazing pursuit she had ever felt.
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H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
Grok. My W has exhibited similar behavior (constant comments about gray hair....needing to get it dyed, wondering about going all gray, etc.) and I recognize my MIL has historically said/done similar things about her hair. Years ago, during my first attempt at DBing, W was certain she wanted to get a tattoo, loose weight, questioned many previous life choices, and other MLC-like behavior).
Thanks to this forum, I've worked to pivot to what I can control, focused on myself and daughter, and researched strategies for navigating life with an MLC partner for now. More recently, W shifted to telling me she wants me to be happy and doesn't want me to later regret sticking with her to which I said "I appreciate your thoughtfulness. I'd let you know if I had similar concerns".
I fully agree with Sunflyer that needing someone who "can't live w/o her" seems unhealthy all around. Death, serious illness/injuries, and many other things can take loved ones from us in an instant. I can appreciate wanting a partner who is truly in it for the other person. Can't live w/o them is over the top IMHO.
I showed this quote to an officer who served with her. He found it not matching reality...that she had more success than most of her peers.
I also note she says no one helps her but me and the kids. The complaint this year was she gave and gave and I didn't give back.
I can believe this. The things she wrote make it sound like she is in frequent, maybe constant, competition with herself.
I have also learned of the importance of validation to women. Certainly they require it more than many of us expected. If you had validated your W more, would she have stayed? The reality is, who knows. Statements like she hasn't "won" anything in a while, that life is boring and mediocre are concerning. I am no therapist, but if someone said these things to me I would feel that there is deeper unrest beyond the marital issues.
I identify with the "gave and gave" comment. I heard the same thing. She used to tell the kids, "Daddy and I are a team. We always look out for each other and help each other." Now, her view is it was all one-sided.
Last edited by Sunflyer; 04/18/2401:09 PM.
Me 59 W 47 T 26 M 23 S18, S14 BD May 2023 D filed June 2023 OM1 confirmed: December 2023 OM2 confirmed: October 2023
More recently, W shifted to telling me she wants me to be happy and doesn't want me to later regret sticking with her to which I said "I appreciate your thoughtfulness. I'd let you know if I had similar concerns".
I like this response. I heard something very similar from W and wish I had thought of it!
Me 59 W 47 T 26 M 23 S18, S14 BD May 2023 D filed June 2023 OM1 confirmed: December 2023 OM2 confirmed: October 2023
Not much I can add, other than that my situation is practically a mirror of yours.
And many others. See how many “fill in the blanks” similarities there are in Jack Three Beans story reposted by AmyC. They both had a lot of experience and insights to share and well worth your time to read.
Originally Posted by AmyC
Jack's Story
Once upon a time, Jack was complacent in his marriage and home life. He did the bare minimum, as did his wife. As parents they were “there" but not really there for their two wonderful boys. Jack lost himself from the troubles, cares and boredom of the world in video games. Jack's wife lost herself in the attention of Jack's friend.
That was a year and a half ago, more or less. My story is much like anyone else's. We could make a form and leave blank spaces here for all of the new people.
A year plus into this I can identify here now. It is uncomfortable. Where did she go?
Originally Posted by AmyC
Now Jack, doesn't know if he wants her in his life. The things that he used to be able to swallow stick in his throat. He sometimes see the friend he used to have, but mostly it is just this person sitting across from him, this stranger who looks like someone he used to know.
Even when you may feel like you have nothing to say, simply thank you for stopping by. For me, when we do this it says someone understands, someone cares, you are not alone. I started in Lamentations, feeling alone, feeling like my faults were the sum of things, and feeling like OM's power loomed large.
Hey G....
Been keeping up a bit with your sitch...
I'm not here much anymore, although I do stop by occasionally to read.
Anytime my old friend's names are dropped, I do perk up a bit and pay attention to what's being said and interpreted.
I think if you were to read any situation from the past, you will find so many similarities in them.
So much of MLC is textbook, and so many of the stories resonate when you are in the heat of the battle.
I do see some things though, within you, that resemble Jack. The understanding, the softness, some of the interactions.
He came into DB softly, yet wielding a big stick. He owned his faults and acted on them to change and become a better version of himself. He was very vocal about his role in the breakdown of his marriage.
Most of his threads have been purged by now, which is a shame. He did have a way of telling his story.
He was also a walkaway, from his first marriage. And I think a lot of that allowed him to find empathy in his situation.
To him, the confusion that the WAS displays is the difference in those two paths.
Jack was also the first person that would tell you that there were people here, posters, that were more deserved of reconciliation of their marriage, yet he was lucky. Lucky that his wife's MLC was shorter than others, and he was able to outlast it.
And he DBed with the best of them, right up to the point where he was done....
AmyC was a fireball of MLC, a hailstorm within herself. She was the one in MLC that destroyed her marriage, and her husband DBed her without knowing what that meant, and when she hit her rock bottom, she tried to regain what had been lost, up until she realized that she was not going to sell her soul, just to be married to her husband....
Her reflection on that, and her openness of what MLC looked like was what made her special.
Jack would have been a fan of you though....
Encouraging you to burn every ounce of fuel to outlast her MLC, to find a way through this while causing minimal damage. To find one more day within yourself. He would ask if she was worth it, the waiting for her to figure herself out before a bell was rung that could not be un-rung..
He would tell you that your spouse carried your marriage at times on her back, and that maybe it's just your time to carry the marriage for while.
Originally Posted by J3B
"Today is not the day I quit, maybe I will tomorrow, but let's see what tomorrow brings"
He would also tell you to use your anger as a shield, not as a sword with your interactions....
And that there is nothing that you can say or do to change this, yet everything that you say or do will change this....
LOL, yea....when that makes sense, you will be on your way....
For me ?
I liken your story to another friend here.... TSqaured2
11:30p Saturday night. Mach1, Thank you for stoping by and adding to my story. I’ve been thinking about what you post and now T2’s story (as I find time to read) multiples times a day. I feel a kinship and you are right on the similarities. I just haven’t written my examination of myself here. Or thought trails from each section of your posts.
Originally Posted by Mach1
And that there is nothing that you can say or do to change this, yet everything that you say or do will change this....
LOL, yea....when that makes sense, you will be on your way....
I have felt the shape of this since early on. Like many things, the devil is in the execution.
You see, when the bomb dropped I quickly looked over my life and found many things needing correcting. One of which was the lack of friends and mentors in my daily life…as I had not been cultivating them in my complacency, depression, etc…. Both the usual story and my own. I see you all as helping to fill in some of the gaps. Oh, to be sure, this does not negate the need for friends and mentors physically present right here, but I knew right from the initial critical analysis, that time was both a gift and my enemy. Many things needing fixing take more time than I had as the need was RIGHT NOW.
Time, time, time…. Prioritizing, sorting, balancing all the things. Work to pay the bills, Animals to take care of, Household chores and maintenance to do. Oh! I forgot. $%#@ I have to move laundry from washer to dryer RIGHT NOW before I forget again and fall asleep. Be right back. … OK. D19 (!! Today Saturday is her birthday, no longer D18 !!), D17, S12 to give each individual attention and time to, Meals to make, groceries to get, fitness to keep up with, books to read, family talk to, Kids activities to do, saw a L three weeks ago for draft settlement review and still haven’t written up the changes I want, DB forum to read, DB posts to write somehow…. And the list goes on without a partner.
I feel blessed and exhausted both. I made a determination to myself early on that kids staying with me, with all the extra effort and money it takes, is my win and my blessing. I will step up and not regret a single minute. A couple days in the life of G...the everything I do and say.
Just before bedtime tonight, “hey D17, we should eat these Kiwi fruits now before they go bad“ D17, “Daaaad, we just got them yesterday!” G, “What?! Did we really? It seems so long ago. What have I been doing? Let me think starting with yesterday, Friday.”
0630 get up, take vitamins, put on shorts, take big dog for a mile walk, feed dogs, shower, make breakfast, help D17 feed baby bird
0715 fire up the work laptop computer as I can work from home today. Check in.
0830 ask D17 to go shopping with me at 0900 for D18’s last birthday gifts and stop by grocery store on the way back. Grumpy at first but agrees and cheers up. See D18 out the door for work. S12 wakes up, make sure he has something to eat.
0930 get text W is taking S12 out for a bit. Wait for an hour and then send back “OK.”
1000 find Lego cars D18 wants, figure out it costs lots less to order online and pick up in the store in an hour, EVEN THOUGH I’M STANDING IN THE STORE! Pick up other small gifts and party supplies. Head out for groceries and will come back for online order pickup….sigh.
1030 get most of the groceries we will need for the next week (those kiwi fruits), head back to first store to pick up online Lego car order.
1130 arrive home again, S12 is back, help make lunch for all, start work again. Find W had gone for donuts with S12 and left a box.
1600 Grab D17 and S12 to take big dog to the dog park for socializing and run about time. Kids need to get out also. S12 grumpy about leaving his computer game. Promise him he can set a 45 minute timer at the park and then we can leave. He settles down as he does better with defined end states.
1800 back working for a bit and then out the door to take D17 to work at her gym then back to work for some more. Give up on work, it is a Friday, and play computer game with S12, D18 arrives home.
1900 make pizza for all with pre-made roll out dough
2030 head out to pick up D17 and return, have everyone help with dishes and some clean up. D17 makes cake for tomorrow’s birthday party.
2130 get kids started on any last hungry issues, gather up dogs for evening walk w/ S12 before bed. He is unhappy because it is D18’s turn but she promises to do the next few nights.
2230 all about ready for bed but each comes and visits me for this or that reason. S12 asks where is mom? “I don’t know son.”
2330 I think I can turn out the light now. Mind spins around thinking DB thoughts. I do not get enough sleep with this schedule.
0630 get up, take vitamins, put on shorts, take big dog for a mile walk, feed dogs, shower, make breakfast, help D17 feed baby bird. She goes back to sleep. Weekend sleeping in does not exist any more for me. Take care of little dogs
0700 D19! Now! Opens one eye and I wish her Happy Birthday. She shuts eye again. Ask her to get up as I’m taking S12 and D19! on a bike ride with a friend I’ve made this year. Our daughters knew each other before, though his are much younger. We need to leave at 8. I hook up bike rack and fasten bikes and gather supplies.
0730 D17 leaves with W for gym.
0800 Me, S12 and D19! depart for his house where there are paved trails. We stop by drive through donut shop for breakfast sandwiches. We, along with friend and two of his kids, ride bikes at a leisurely pace for the kids with a grocery store destination. I buy a 18 pack of popsicles, three each, and we eat them all. We get back to his house just in time for him to depart for a swim graduation
1100 arrive home and ensure kids help put away all biking stuffs.
1130 It turns out W texts D19 and asks her to pick up D17 from gym as she forgot a prior engagement. D19 is upset with W for throwing last minute tasks at her repeatedly. I said I’d go and get D17. Ask D19 to do lunch things for S12.
1200 pick up D17 from gym and take her to pet store to buy more baby bird food. She wants to bring home rescued kittens. I say NO. Buy her a chicken sandwich lunch as the other two got a take out breakfast. She is always extra hungry after gym.
1245 package delivered with some of D19’s gifts. Whew! Got lucky.
It also contains a PD-1638 mechanical watch mentioned in Sunflyer's thread. I picked silver and blue. A 180? Maybe as I haven't worn a watch in 20+ years. This was more for taking care of me as I love complicated mechanical things.
1300 Start Birthday Party prep with D17 and S12. D19 told to stay in her room. Balloons, streamers, frosting the cake made last night, dinosaur theme and we have little wind up dinosaurs. Final presents wrapped. Our fingers all stained from food coloring for the frosting.
1330 W arrives for our little party. She goes and lays on couch, facing the wall. Apparently napping. S12 covers her with blanket. D17 and I bounce around with final prep. D19 complains of being bored waiting.
1400 Gifts, cake, song. Happy smiles. Out of a gift set, D17 claims clip on earrings D19 doesn’t want. D19 seems happy with her gifts.
D17, “Daddy, D19 said she would get her ears pierced again if you did. You did promise you would and I want a second one in my right ear.” G, “OK, I did promise. Look up where and we will make plans.” W, … looks on at the conversation. Can’t tell what she thinks….
This is a 180 for me certainly. I’ve never had a desire or gotten any tattoos or piercings. I’m doing it to step out of my comfort zone and for daughters. Perhaps an example to S12. My only caveat is mine must be masculine.
1500 W departs looking tired.
1530 D17 wants to to it right now today. O! OK, I say, find a place and the requirements. We will do it right now. We find out she needs a notarized state permission form as she is a minor. I search and find a public notary service open on a Saturday. Print the form.
This is another 180 for me. I like to take my time and consider all the factors and implications. Do it right now... feels odd and exciting.
1600 We depart leaving S12 at home playing game update he had been waiting for. Find and accomplish the notarized form. Find the tattoo/piercing place. It is clean and professional looking. Interesting cast of employees and their semi-revealing dress and creative use of language. They were all kind and helpful. I ask for D19 about the swim lessons she teaches and healing. They say absolutely not within 30+ days.
She looks crushed and about to burst into tears. She had worked up her courage, worked her heart into acceptance, would have something meaningful on her birthday to remember with us…but…to be denied because she needed her work. I resisted the urge to fix it for her. I tried to validate how she felt. As D17 and I get ours done, D19 messages friends and they recommend water sealing bandaids and ear covers. I tell D19 that is an acceptable risk if she still wants to get her ears done. We just won’t tell the piercing place… she considers.
I go first and have left ear done with small black onyx pin. D17 goes next and squeezes my hand next to crushing, though I give no sign how hard she squeezes. She gets a small emerald color gem in upper ear. D19 has joy and fear in her face now when I ask her decision. She says yes, let’s do it. The technician takes a look at her ears and says hey wait, you have old holes in your ears I think I can just open back up. It will save you $$ and recovery time! Both ear piercings are opened back up with an audible “POP!” And some pain. D19 refuses to squeeze my hand. She gets small clear gems in each ear. I pay for us all. The titanium costs extra, but let us do this right. D19 opens up about how upset she was. Just about breaking down and sitting in the car. She is beaming now though and ordering ear coverings online.
1900 back home and making some food. Birthday mess cleanup will wait until tomorrow. D19 heads to store to meet friend and spend gift cards. The rest all relax for an hour. Whew what a day so far.
2000 set about collecting medical bills for insurance plan purposes
2100 help with baby bird feeding, get dogs ready for evening walk, minor pick up the house
2130 when taking out trash, notice W sitting outside the house in her car, apparently doom scrolling social media on her phone. I wonder how long she has been there. She doesn’t notice me I think. D19 messages she will be back home at 2200 to walk dogs with me.
2145 W enters house briefly and dogs go nuts. She calls out to S12 to meet her outside and exits again. S12 was on his way to brush his teeth and continues on to do so.
2200 I walk dogs with D19 and W is still outside on her phone, going and coming back.
2230 W group messages to send S12 out to her. D19 does so. Did she really wait outside in her car for over an hour?
2300 everyone is finally in their beds. I look over Mach1’s post and think of all the things I thought about writing
2330 It is now 11:30p on Saturday night and I’m finally writing something. It turns into something about time, everything we do and say, and inspired by Kiwi fruits, and being so busy I forget things.
g
H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
I'm glad that I was able to bring you to thought...
I've always been a "teach a Man to fish" kind of poster rather than a "give a Man a fish"...
KWIM ?
Over the years, and because of my friendship with Jack. I have also become friends with Mrs. J3B, and we have had several conversations about her time in MLC, what she was thinking (or lack thereof) , what she was seeing, feeling, etc....
And one reason I bring this up with you, is about the balance of what I speak of....
Nothing...
Everything...
It's a razors edge for sure.
One thing that I was told by her, was that she was always watching, often times not believing even though it was in front of her. And it was the integrity that Jack acted with, that first made her want to watch more closely. And it was his consistency that eventually prompted her to be more inquisitive.
Which is odd, because Jack always said that his pride was his "ride or die"....
Pride was the hill that he stood on, often times for far too long, and one of his greatest opponents. He walked that line daily, between it being motivation, yet not allowing it to become his downfall.
Mrs. Beans said that after her "bottom", she knew that she had 3 choices to make....
She could return the the marriage, hoping that what she saw had become real...
She could continue with status quo, knowing that it never really fulfilled her heart...
Or, she could remain alone forever, because Jack was her one true love...
Jack, on the other hand. The King of "stop snooping" , found her journal one day that she had left during a visit with the boys....
And there were multiple pages with merely....
"I MISS JACK"
In various scripts and colors....
While hopeful...he had DB on one shoulder, and Pride sat firmly entrenched on the other...
What she feared, and the thing that she worked the hardest to overcome...
Was the feeling of being judged..
And the fear of being judged, while it being strong from others....
Played a vital role in her having difficulties with forgiveness....
I linked T2's thread because I see a lot of his posting style in you....
The way he processed, and thought. I see that you could be Kindred posters, and that you could learn from one hell of a guy. He too went through a metamorphosis to become what he should have always been. And I think a lot of us have done that post bomb, and many have been surprised on how instinctively that has happened for us.
I have also witnessed several Men in that situation burn out quickly from doing that. The sustained instant accountability becomes overwhelming if the reason is merely obtaining a goal. When the goal fades, so does the façade of changing because we simply felt the need to change...
Mind you, that has NOT happened with T2, and only time will tell with your story..
This process....DB.....
Is about consistency (as you know by now).....
DBing is a way of life for me now, and why do it at all if I wasn't going to continue it.
You're a deep thinker Grok, and sometimes deep thinkers scare me a bit.
As I think about it , what comes to mind is....
"Beware The Ides of March....."
I see a strong, capable, confident man taking the wheel and steering the ship....
What I also see....
Is a strong, capable man taking the wheel and steering the ship....
Be careful Grok....on which shoulder wins...
Keep reading T2....
Things get interesting around thread 14, 15, 16.....
While continuing to read through T2's threads, this resonated. My W hasn't gone for the crazy spew for she is too smart and introspective on her own. The dissonance and conflict within does generate warped thinking and feeling though. With detachment now I can more clearly see it. To me, the warping was too subtle to see at first when delivered by the person I trusted most in the world.
Originally Posted by Kimmerz
But this time around, I was able to read that without taking it personally and looking at it objectively, as if maybe it were a friend asking me to read this from her WAS/MLCer. This time what I saw was someone taking absolutely no responsibility for their issues or emotions. Someone playing the complete victum. It was almost as if he were in complete denial of his very own life that he chose to partake in. Also in complete denial of how he sabatoged many things, yet pointed the finger at me.
W, "G, you know I never went looking for this." Because I wasn't the initiator, I'm justified accepting OM's attentions.
W, "I can't go back! I have to burn it all down to the ground so I can move forward." My current feelings for OM override values and principles I have lived by. I can see no other path than follow my feelings.
W, "I know I never thew a fit or stomped my feet but...." I just let my resentment build.
W, "G, how long did you expect me to wait?" I'm a passive victim waiting for you to be who I wanted you to be.
W, "I had to do EVERYTHING" I believe all my chosen life / lifestyle choices were yours to do also.
Negative sentiment override. I have the messages where she praises me for taking care of "everything" while she pursues chosen career and outside the home activities for years.
I asked my sister #2 about that last one for a reality check and described what "everything" included. This sister is perfectly willing to 2X4 me over my head. Was I really that bad? Sister, "but G, every one of those things were life and careeer choices SHE CHOSE! Now she is unhappy with the result of her own choices. And she is repeating those same patterns now..."
W, "There wasn't US time. We didn't go out and do things together." You are responsible for US not making time for ourselves.
As W kept the family social and kids schedule. She booked activities for her and kids 6+ days a week. When asked about which thing(s) to give up to make time...I never got an answer. Me? Well, I should have just overridden instead of asked and waited. I had been trying to give respect in our agreed domains.
W, "No one will understand. I'll always be the villian."
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H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
Reasons not to snoop or sometimes snooping finds you
Originally Posted by TSquared2
It is funny how we can be going along all detached and coping okay, then some little thing sets off a trigger and bam! it is all in front of our face and taking over our minds and hearts, again.
Breaking off a piece of detach....back to trusting God, the universe, etc. (oh, AND trusting ME!).
W is sometimes not careful with what she thinks is communication with OM or sometimes doesn't realize what can be visible on social media. Last year she described this is how she "secretly" communicated with him by responding to anon social media posts. "Oh, G, this is just him protecting his family. His the most caring man in the world." What is this warped thinking?
Yesterday my detachment thrown for a while when in my FB feed appeared her comment of "Take a cold shower? <LOL emoji><Halo emoji><kiss emoji><fire emoji>" in response to a meme of "You are all I need to set my dirtiest fantasies in motion" by account Love and Lust.
D17 later, "What's wrong daddy? Did something bad happen?" G, "Just something between me and your mother. I'm sorry for making you worry. YOU are fine and wonderful."
I'm not even sure if many of these things are real communication. They may be social media AI giving her feed what she reacts to. She believes OM follows her (or sends "his people" to) around town because she is too precious to him. Or flies drones over to visit her sometimes. I saw only birds flying by.
From T2's thread -
"Do you have the patience to wait until the mud settles and the water is clear? Can you remain unmoving until the right action arises by itself?" Lao Tsu
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H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
Mine is in all top secret social media mode, she scrubbed everything recently that had me in it so she could get a clean slate with OM4, I still have her login and see her communication with him via Instagram, and much like the last guy she's trying to replicate small interactions with him like she did with me, it's quite sad to see, but I use it as fuel to realize that once is a mistake but repeating the behaviour now with om4 om3 etc. It's given me a clear understanding that she has some sort of personality disorder. It's almost as if social media is the gateway drug to wayward wives living out their fantasies, instagram is literally tailored and the algorithm feeds their emotional desires and feeds it back to them ad nauseum. If anything it has become the greatest enabler of egotistical narcissistic behaviour, and people don't realize they are being brainwashed. It's become a playground for lost people It's given people an escape from reality and from responsibility and made them feel young and carefree again.
But be careful how much you choose to see on it regarding your WW. It can either become pain shopping or motivation to move on and forego any form of reconciliation. I'm using it personally to push myself to make the move and fortify my decisions
Reasons not to snoop or sometimes snooping finds you
Originally Posted by TSquared2
It is funny how we can be going along all detached and coping okay, then some little thing sets off a trigger and bam! it is all in front of our face and taking over our minds and hearts, again.
Breaking off a piece of detach....back to trusting God, the universe, etc. (oh, AND trusting ME!).
W is sometimes not careful with what she thinks is communication with OM or sometimes doesn't realize what can be visible on social media. Last year she described this is how she "secretly" communicated with him by responding to anon social media posts. "Oh, G, this is just him protecting his family. His the most caring man in the world." What is this warped thinking?
Yesterday my detachment thrown for a while when in my FB feed appeared her comment of "Take a cold shower? <LOL emoji><Halo emoji><kiss emoji><fire emoji>" in response to a meme of "You are all I need to set my dirtiest fantasies in motion" by account Love and Lust.
D17 later, "What's wrong daddy? Did something bad happen?" G, "Just something between me and your mother. I'm sorry for making you worry. YOU are fine and wonderful."
I'm not even sure if many of these things are real communication. They may be social media AI giving her feed what she reacts to. She believes OM follows her (or sends "his people" to) around town because she is too precious to him. Or flies drones over to visit her sometimes. I saw only birds flying by.
From T2's thread -
"Do you have the patience to wait until the mud settles and the water is clear? Can you remain unmoving until the right action arises by itself?" Lao Tsu
g
Hey G....
Be careful over in T2's old place....there may still be a Feral Cat or two running around in there...: )
I have always seen snooping as...
Don't ask questions that you don't want the answer to....
IF you can handle what you read, and understand that anyone can be anything that they want to be on Social Media, and that not everything that's out there, is "real"...
She is trying to create this "perfect" life now, and what is portrayed is mostly that.
IF it bothers you, then silence the feed for 30 days and see where you are then....
And LMAO at the idea of OM following her around...
He may, or he may not be doing that...
Of course, she may be picking up signals in her dental work too....
It's almost as if social media is the gateway drug to wayward wives living out their fantasies, instagram is literally tailored and the algorithm feeds their emotional desires and feeds it back to them ad nauseum. If anything it has become the greatest enabler of egotistical narcissistic behaviour, and people don't realize they are being brainwashed. It's become a playground for lost people It's given people an escape from reality and from responsibility and made them feel young and carefree again.
And more…. I am familiar with what is attempted by some of the smartest people in the world on human behavior manipulation, with minimal ethics. These platforms are used not just by their owners, but by state and non-state actors for their own purposes. If you have read “The Art of Seduction” and see how behaviors can be involuntarily triggered… just imagine that on an industrial scale designed by experts and targeted using AI/Neural Network pattern recognition. Yeah, …. Keeping my kids to limited use and showing them how to recognize it’s addictive properties.
Originally Posted by Catman19
But be careful how much you choose to see on it regarding your WW. It can either become pain shopping or motivation to move on and forego any form of reconciliation.
Originally Posted by Mach1
I have always seen snooping as...
Don't ask questions that you don't want the answer to....
IF you can handle what you read,
Well, I’ve done snooping, though not for a while now. I tried to heed the advice of if you can handle it, the intel collection can be valuable. I forget, was that Puppy or? Indicators and warnings, situational awareness, and it ended up primarily for me a “temp check” she was unaware of. It helped refocus ME away from HER. I also saw some of her confessions of internal turmoil, helping with empathy.
Originally Posted by Mach1
understand that anyone can be anything that they want to be on Social Media, and that not everything that's out there, is "real”…
I do understand. I’m old school. I was around when the meme "On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog" came about in 1993. At the time messing around as a side project at work installing Trumpet Winsock to get office computers connected to the internet. Used Gopher, Usenet, and email mostly because the WWW was just begining. And I’m not even IT, there just wasn’t anyone else to do it. Oh wow, do I date myself!
Originally Posted by Mach1
And LMAO at the idea of OM following her around... He may, or he may not be doing that... Of course, she may be picking up signals in her dental work too.... WMLC...all crazy, all the time....
<laughs> True, and I do need people to poke at me and set me to reality. You see, the people I work with could certainly do such an operation if resources were given. I have a pretty good idea of just what it would take. She believed OM had access to the video from cameras around town and could watch her from them. Yes, I personally know that is possible with the right software, databases, and intrusion knowledge. But in reality for a given OM to have skills, resources, money, and connections? Yeah, don’t think so.
Originally Posted by Catman19
Be careful over in T2's old place....there may still be a Feral Cat or two running around in there...: )
The analogy made me laugh, .. and think how apt it is. I needed the chuckle.
11p, all finally in bed and S12 came to lay beside me restless. I did get time to game with him for an hour this evening. Strategies to clear a BloonsTD6 map. Time to go.
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H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
Mach1, I did say I think on the words said here....
Originally Posted by Mach1
And one reason I bring this up with you, is about the balance of what I speak of....
Nothing...
Everything...
It's a razors edge for sure.
And the next day randomly in my "make a playlist for me Spotify," an artist and song unknown to me. The album "Everything & Nothing" by David Sylvian. Huh.
Blackwater
I hold you in A sea of silence On the borderline of truth Open violence I see no sign I see no place I've loved Depending on the signs To find the road ... I see her cry I see the face I have loved Depending on the blind To find the road
Blackwater take me with you To the place that I have spoken Come lead me through the morning For the land that I long to see again
Originally Posted by Mach1
He was also a walkaway, from his first marriage. And I think a lot of that allowed him to find empathy in his situation.
For me? Hmmmm... after all the pain and internal re-examination this year I still would find it hard to ever be a walk away myself. Push comes to shove and all that. For me, empathy comes from examining me from her perspective. Did I really mean my claims and statements over the years?
- "I Love You," Did I really mean it and what does that mean right now?
I discovered I did, and how I felt about US and chose to act was not dependent on whether she was cold or warm. I had CHOSEN at our begining and to me that was final. Yes, I found my definition since our begining was Love is a choice, verb, and then feeling. The choice is permenent for me. The verb I succeed and fail at over the years, but always intend. The feeling...well it follows how well I am doing at the verb.
- What is a M? What are vows?
I rolled this around for a while. I can only hold me accountable for my own. I think what resonated with me was the notion that M is a covenant created by God. We joined it together. Break with God at your peril. Answer to Him for your part.
WW, "But G, you didn't Cherish ME!" What?! I have ALWAYS FELT that way. W used words that didn't translate well to my thought process. Eventually translated - "you didn't say and do things in my language that I would feel cherished by." The notion of her pain and unhappiness, thinking she was not cherrished was more painful than an OM, who is just a symptom. W has had a tendancy since the begining to assume the worst interpretations and roll around in unhappy feelings without telling me.
- "for better or worse," What does this mean to me in this mess?
Originally Posted by Mach1
Jack would have been a fan of you though....
Encouraging you to burn every ounce of fuel to outlast her MLC, to find a way through this while causing minimal damage. To find one more day within yourself. He would ask if she was worth it, the waiting for her to figure herself out before a bell was rung that could not be un-rung..
This is definitionally "worse." When I took four years to say "I Do," I kept working through all the "worse" situations I could think of and testing myself. I still did not imagine this one. For me this mess is an "outside context problem." See Ian Banks novels where the term originates or just google.
Going in I had NO frame of reference to deal with any of this. No doubt a pile of failure on my part by not growing my relationship skills and understanding over the years. I had thought W is certainly more skilled at this than me so I will leave it to her. A faulty way of thinking. Abdicating my responsibilities for my end.
It turns out I meant it. And it is God's covenant I joined with W. So what follows was simple to me. From Love and instinct, I opened the cage door in my first reply to her DB1. I also stated I don't believe it is right or good but is chaos and destruction. My actual words. I will not actively participate. I will not block. I will not deny your agency.
W, "G, if you tell me I can't D, I won't. I will submit but I will be angry and unhappy and separate." G, "W, I will not keep you like some caged bird."
Trying for minimal damage while balancing all the other things ... How much damage to me do I accept or can bear to minimize others? Damage to her? No, I went very dim/dark since last fall when she moved herself out. I say little. I just do. Though this may be perceived as more of the same. I did not ask for the house key back. There are no restrictions to her coming over for the children. I have more peace NOT in her presence right now but the kids balance now is as good as could possibly be hoped in this.
My metaphor - for her was a little sun shining deep in my core. Now imploded into a black hole and threatening to devour ME. Unless. Unless. I could grow faster than that event horizon could suck bits in.
Originally Posted by Mach1
I have also witnessed several Men in that situation burn out quickly from doing that. The sustained instant accountability becomes overwhelming if the reason is merely obtaining a goal. When the goal fades, so does the façade of changing because we simply felt the need to change...
So, my goal is steps beyond a R with W. I don't control that. I am slowly gaining words to wrap around it. I was asked by W, by IC, by pastor, by others... the short response was to grow. Into what I should have been all along. Into the person, man, father, husband?, friend, son, brother, ... I want to be. I don't think there is an end here to this process. Picking framworks and applying. PIES is useful. Working on known unknowns. Trying to find unknown unknowns.
So, I'm not quiting or stopping. -Till we burn out the sun- If W completes her D, it doesn't change where I'm going. Every week I gain better strength and equlibrium. Not less pain, really. I'm just stronger to accept what is. Analogy - In college days I had a friend who took me to the gym weight lifting every day for a year. I did get a lot stronger that year. The workouts were never less painful though. No matter how strong I got.
Filter - Burn out the Sun
Oh no we're blind again we just lost the sight of it Everything and all that we had ever done We need to see again we stopped listening And that's on all of us this time Our hearts are still sold from a simple time And our wants are still old and we do or die I hope we find a way I hope we get away Just a rescue from a lost lonely time
I feel so tired But time keeps marching on I can't sleep till all These clouds are gone
Till they're gone Till they're gone Till we burn out the sun
I keep thinking I'll make short posts. I keep failing. And these are a fraction of the things I connect each day. The inside joke - I say I'm a simple man. Things often appear simple to me and each thing logically flows from the others. The family rolls their eyes..."G, you are the most complex simple man alive."
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H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
So, my goal is steps beyond a R with W. I don't control that.
I keep thinking I'll make short posts. I keep failing.
You don't control it right now, but it seems to me the advice around here is that the LBS does control the relationship in the end. And if you haven't gotton to that point yet then it is not the end.
You don't control it right now, but it seems to me the advice around here is that the LBS does control the relationship in the end. And if you haven't gotton to that point yet then it is not the end.
- True - *reset thought process*
short post
I think.
So much value here seems to be in re-setting thought processes. Beginners mind. Delete "always" "never" "but" etc. and on.
Originally Posted by Cadet
Short posts - that me!!
dunno...run across some things in archive...
Aside - Is trauma trigger -> MLC -> WAS more common than I thought? This is unsettling. I was at a <scout like troop> activity for S12 over the weekend. The father whose home was hosting the event and I talked for a bit. Over the last 2 years his W was in an accident -> just turned 40 -> decided she had missed out on college crazy years -> left solid middle class life to live in public housing and have s*x at as many college parties as she can.
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H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
This is a lot more common than we think. Between tik tok, instagram, media, it almost feels like breakingbof the nuclear family is being pushed on everyone. And with women they tend to air their grievances with their female friends and as the critical mass of women leaving good marriages grows, single, divorced and unfaithful women are pushing each other to do the same. Either to live in shared misery and to have company or to give them entertainment and drama to talk about amongst each other. I think the difference with men is we tend to gravitate to other family oriented male friends who encourage us to work on our marriages, and that's if we even talk to them about our married life. I find most men keep their home life private even from their friends out of respect for their spouses. Women tend to be the opposite they feed off each other's grievances and tell each other to break things rather than fix them. Older women like mothers and successfully married women when giving advice tend to be seen as old fashioned and submissive. Mine said she didn't want our marriage to be like her parents or my parents and that their marriages were too traditional. So they seek advice from social media and friends who are living broken lives. The prevalence of dating apps and Instagram gives women the false illusion that guys who are dming th3m or trying to hook up on dating apps are viable mates and partners. So they go feet first thinking they can do better but then will soon realize the men on dating apps and Instagram just want to use them.
It's quite sad really to see all of this in play. But remember something you have all the power. In the dating market, older, more traditional men are seen as a much bigger prize by younger women who want serious relationships and the women being tricked into thinking they can do better in their 40s are in for a rude awakening. And if they ever do realize they messed up instead of admitting and showing regret and remorse they will carry bitter resentment to their exes instead of doing the hard work of self reflecting and doing the inner work to seek happiness from within
I rolled this around for a while. I can only hold me accountable for my own. I think what resonated with me was the notion that M is a covenant created by God. We joined it together. Break with God at your peril. Answer to Him for your part.
WW, "But G, you didn't Cherish ME!" What?! I have ALWAYS FELT that way. W used words that didn't translate well to my thought process. Eventually translated - "you didn't say and do things in my language that I would feel cherished by." The notion of her pain and unhappiness, thinking she was not cherrished was more painful than an OM, who is just a symptom. W has had a tendancy since the begining to assume the worst interpretations and roll around in unhappy feelings without telling me.
- "for better or worse," What does this mean to me in this mess?
Originally Posted by Mach1
Jack would have been a fan of you though....
Encouraging you to burn every ounce of fuel to outlast her MLC, to find a way through this while causing minimal damage. To find one more day within yourself. He would ask if she was worth it, the waiting for her to figure herself out before a bell was rung that could not be un-rung..
This is definitionally "worse." When I took four years to say "I Do," I kept working through all the "worse" situations I could think of and testing myself. I still did not imagine this one. For me this mess is an "outside context problem." See Ian Banks novels where the term originates or just google.
Going in I had NO frame of reference to deal with any of this. No doubt a pile of failure on my part by not growing my relationship skills and understanding over the years. I had thought W is certainly more skilled at this than me so I will leave it to her. A faulty way of thinking. Abdicating my responsibilities for my end.
That's a good question...
Seems fairly simple, yet it's quite complex to answer....
What do one's vows mean to them ??
Most people mean them at first, and then they change somewhere along the line.
The "better" seems easy....
The "worse" seems to be lightyears away...
Same with richer, poorer, sickness, health....
Some people will go through life without ever finding out whether or not they believe them all...
And others will find out when they are up against them....
What I've learned is...
I've been divorced for 14 years now...
And my vows have nothing to do with her....
They are MY core...and I still live them...
So throwing everything else aside...(her, God, Bigfoot, the Pope)
What do they mean to you ?
How do you live each of those in your daily life ???
Originally Posted by grok
I keep thinking I'll make short posts. I keep failing. And these are a fraction of the things I connect each day. The inside joke - I say I'm a simple man. Things often appear simple to me and each thing logically flows from the others. The family rolls their eyes..."G, you are the most complex simple man alive."
g
Since we started with a conversation about Jack3Beans....
When I first came here, the firewall at my work kept me from posting...
So I read everything that I could find.
After a few months, Jack posted his email address and that anyone that wanted to reach him could do so there.
So I reached out, with him not knowing who I was at all....
My email became my DB board.
I would journal these incredibly verbose emails, sometimes 3-4 a day. and wait for him to respond.
No matter how many I sent, I would get back one a day....
And somehow, what he would send back was often a 5-10 word response, that would summarize everything that I sent him....
Not sure how he did that. At the time, it was frustrating as hel!, yet looking back, it is what I smile the most about in our friendship....
Opened a "Strength" devotional book the children gave me as a present. Random page.
Patience
Warn those who are lazy Encourage those who are timid Take tender care of those who are weak Be patient with everyone. 1 Thess 5:14
Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Eph 4:2
and several more.
Get into car for commute to work after I baked can of cinnamon rolls for S12's breakfast request. Departing while they are all sleeping still. Spotify plays...
U2 - "40" (adapting Psalms 40)
I waited patiently for the Lord He inclined and heard my cry He lifts me up out of the pit Out of the miry clay
I will sing, sing a new song I will sing, sing a new song
How long to sing this song? How long to sing this song? How long, how long, how long How long to sing this song?
On my wrist is a band D19 gave me - H. W. L. F. (the answer to WWJD) It has been there for almost a year. A token yes. Also to remind me in all my interactions.
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Last edited by grok; 04/30/2401:43 PM.
H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
I waited patiently for the Lord He inclined and heard my cry He lifts me up out of the pit Out of the miry clay
I will sing, sing a new song I will sing, sing a new song
How long to sing this song? How long to sing this song? How long, how long, how long How long to sing this song?
I love that song..... ^^^
When I was in my heat of the battle...
I heard this more times than I could count....adapted from Ecclesiastes 3:1-8
And every time that I heard it, it seemed to come at just the right time, and allowed me to step outside of myself and realize that there is a greater power controlling all of this.
And the only thing or person I could control was myself and my responses to the schidt storm around me...
Originally Posted by The Byrds
To everything turn, turn, turn There is a season turn, turn, turn And a time to every purpose under Heaven
A time to be born, a time to die A time to plant, a time to reap A time to kill, a time to heal A time to laugh, a time to weep
To everything turn, turn, turn There is a season turn, turn, turn And a time to every purpose under Heaven
A time to build up, a time to break down A time to dance, a time to mourn A time to cast away stones A time to gather stones together
To everything turn, turn, turn There is a season turn, turn, turn And a time to every purpose under Heaven
A time of love, a time of hate A time of war, a time of peace A time you may embrace A time to refrain from embracing
To everything turn, turn, turn There is a season turn, turn, turn And a time to every purpose under Heaven
A time to gain, a time to lose A time to rain, a time of sow A time for love, a time for hate A time for peace, I swear it's not too late
Coincidence certainly is God's way of staying anonymous...
Although I hate your going through this situation, I love reading your story. It's written like a book, it helps me take my mind off of my situation at the same time it also has very helpful tips. Praying for you and your kids.
Yeah I agree with whatlee, very succinct and heartfelt posts. Some of us are better wordsmiths than others. That's the beauty of language and music. Sometimes the right word at the right time has a way of revealing intense and thoughtful feelings and emotions. When the skies are dark and cloudy all that we can do is for a break in the clouds and have a light shine on our lives and make us feel important and alive again. Whether it be faith or spiritual awakening, our souls need nourishment more than our bodies need food, we seem to neglect this need more often than not.
Although I hate your going through this situation, I love reading your story. It's written like a book, it helps me take my mind off of my situation at the same time it also has very helpful tips. Praying for you and your kids.
Thank you Whatlee for stoping by my thread. And thank you for the prayers. There are never enough. Gratitude. Please add my W to your prayers as much as me and the children, for as much as I am a damaged and stricken soul, so is she. Just in a different way. .
And the writing, well, it is a bit of how I think and feel, it is a bit of how I process, it is.to…express the intangibles…the subtle parts that won’t come through by dry facts or spewed emotions. Others may be able to SEE better the ME in the here and now, offer or gain help perhaps. As much as I gain…I hope others can read and gain as I have from others before me. Even when I can’t quite see it while in the middle.
A short story for you
Those little moments of Grief and Gratitude.
I got my hair and beard trimmed last week. I chose a barber shop this last year for the quirk that the nieces of the original barber took over after he died. These ladies have done a good job for me so I go back and tell them bits of my story as shop gossip. The lady this time, when hearing about how hormonal changes my be a contributing factor for my W and how they have affected other women I've asked about it, said, “Yeah, I’ve sometimes thought that I might just stay single now, so I never put someone I love though that.” What a sad thought. Grief.
As a GAL activity, I’ve been bike riding once a month with Critical Mass in the city. I now know Peter, Carl, Delores, and Alex. It’s in many cities, google it. On the last Friday of each month all comers are welcome for a ride though the city at night. About 12 miles at 10 miles / hour. As few as 30 people and sometimes more than 100! Last Friday I asked D19 if she wanted to go this time and got a yes. Ooooo have to hustle to get both bikes fastened, drive, unload, ride to the start gathering. We had a good time though she kept complaining about her legs. We got red and blue slushies on the way home at bed time. Gratitude
The kids had been asking that we go back to the beach soon. D19 wanted to go to a nice one about 1 hour and 20 minutes south of us. I said OK, but you all need to be ready on Saturday afternoon when S12 and I get back from his <scout like troop> activity. When I got home though, D19 was crying. “Daaaaadddd, my legs hurt. I can’t walk or stand even. They are cramping inside! I wanted to walk through the shops at the beach. I don't think I want to go.” Oof. Let me practice my absorbing waves of emotion skills. By the time I had packed all the stuff, and shown all the snacks I got for the trip, her desire to go was stronger than perceived leg pains. Besides, she wanted to be in charge of the music. Laughter and we sing to 1980s songs on the way. Gratitude.
After a successful time at the beach. And egging S12 to try and catch a fish swimming around us in the ocean. D19 took us to some local shops. Then got everyone an ice cream cone. And then before leaving took us to a pizza shop she knew of and bought us a pizza. What a wonderful gift. Me….after each stop… I noticed. 1, 2, 3, 4 of us. But. We are supposed to be 5. FIVE. 5. GRIEF.
Tears as I write this. The sense of wrongness tears at me.
“Let’s go home children, it is getting late.” D17, “Daddy, what’s wrong?” “I’m tired D17, and my eyes hurt from all the beach time salt and sun.”
~Afterward~
Sunday, I roused myself, did some breakfast things, dishes, and a load of laundry started. A little later roused all and made it to church. S12 to the young folks. D19 and D17 were on their once a month volunteer nursery duty. Five little ones to take care of that day. Me… off to patrol the church grounds every 20 minutes as head of the new “Safety Team.” Can't call it security...lawyers.
In my self-examination I listened to W’s previous complaints of not being more a part of the bigger whole. Participation. I have an intellectual bent and can happily contemplate all the meanings, translations, commentaries of the lessons without talking to a soul. So this year I asked the pastor where he could use help. A 180 I guess? He said they needed someone to head up a “safety team.” Someone who would be responsible for general safety and keeping a watch outward looking while every one else is inward looking. It’s not in my comfort zone, though I have not a doubt I can do it. I’ve rarely found anything I don’t think I could do. It is a matter of trade offs to me. Five volunteer men and me. We’re figuring it out. Gratitude
After, we went out to eat for lunch. W sent D19 some money for lunch. Apparently she meant to take the kids for lunch but something about misjudged the time and couldn’t make it. I paid the overage and told the kids to thank their mother for lunch. W seems to be missing many things because of last minute … reasons.
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H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
BloonsTD. Fun stuff! I do like tower defence games.
Worked off-site today in our university associated lab with low light capable cameras, so was able to come home a little earlier. Checked house cameras. Appears W was there for 3 minutes this afternoon to pick up D17 for gymnastics. D19 is at work. S12 and me
BloonsTD6 - Dark Castle map - Hard Difficulty - Chimps mode
S12 and I made it to round 98 of 100. Sigh. So close after many attempts and strategies.
Now what to do to get him outside? pondering.
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H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
Although I keep getting "Squirrel!" as I track into other posts and threads along the way.
Originally Posted by TSquared2
Hopefully, you will have a "low energy" mlc'er, as Cadet has called it (check out Forever Young's thread) and you will skip that "stage"...
Quote
I've always planned for the future and planned well.
I hear ya!! I dragged myself kicking and screaming to the "live in the NOW" idea, it was so antithetical to my engineer self, but it was the only logical, sane path (ironically)...and I still have trouble with it, to be honest.
"low energy MLC" ... With all W told me last year ("G, I'm more than just X!", on various identities. "G, I didn't know my mission after retiring from military reserves.") before going dark and knowing her for almost 26 years ... I can see and notice the crisis indicators. And I know secrets. The inconsistencies. The forgetfulness. (last week she locked herself out of her RV for the 2nd or 3rd time this year) The changing plans. From the outside, if you didn't know her, you might think just a sad WAS.
I've always run the money/housing, etc.. with an eye to 5, 10, 20 year impacts. We had just about reached retirement investment goals of potential income and enough to present zero burden to children as we age.
"live in the NOW" trouble, "engineer self" logical, yep, yep, yep. I've been working hard this past year to make sure I am living RIGHT NOW (especially with the children every day) and always BE PRESENT by no multitasking and putting down/away any distractions while interacting with anyone.
Originally Posted by ForeverYoung
Originally Posted by Takevowsserious
I think no matter where we are at in our journey, it is hard to detach but still observe. To look for signs, but not have expectations.
I'm starting to believe we all detach as much as we need to, no more, no less... kinda go with the flow, just like a good fighter. Sure, we may miss a block or forget to duck occasionally and take a hit, but we come back smarter and stronger every time.
It took me until she moved herself out and I went dark before I would not be dragged by what I thought she felt. To feel the need to fix her hurt. To see her separately from me...being dragged around by her own emotions. Feeling empathy, because that is not a comfortable place to be.
Originally Posted by TSquared2
I like what Hopper said about conflict, and I think actually BOTH persons can be too giving and too selfish, I think W and I traded roles there depending on the issue.
In hindsight, this is where W and I were. Conflict avoiders? Sort of. Neither of us does conflict well or had it modeled with our parents. Mine never showed conflict to us kids. Hers...well, she was her mom's councilor for grievances against her dad from the age of 13 (but thought her dad was more reasonable). No anger, shouting, or any such thing. Just both of us pushing things aside because, "well, that is a small thing. why make it an issue? it's not important. it is not truly a NEED" Until suddenly with the OM trigger, all that build up was an issue.
Originally Posted by TSquared2
I found the tips for communication in my scrape and paste DB library...
Quote
Use "I" messages. For example, instead of saying, "You get me angry" say "I get angry when you do "X" ....
Avoid "always" or "nevers". These are adjectives that also invite hopelessness or a "why try" attitude because they communicate to your spouse that any positive attempts they have made have been totally overlooked and/or disregarded.
"Whys" can be heard as judgments or put-downs. "Why didn't you take out the garbage?" "Why do you always have to do it that way?" "Why can't you be nicer to me?" Can you sense the attacking mode?
More to the word list. The irony is I do this at work all the time. For many of the people I have supported over the years, I play a side role of editing their documents and emails for sanity and feel. Rephrasing to make clear and constructive communications but leave in the originator's voice. sigh
Originally Posted by TSquared2
Ya know, the rational, business side of me is just shaking it's head that this is even an issue, for an H to take over these duties...but the other side can understand her...she even has said, both verbally and via email, "I'm a SAHM, its my job, why can't I get into it and just do it?"...
Starting our life together, W said she wanted to be a SAHM and have six children. D19 was colicky for a solid 18 months. Right after birth, while in the recovery room, we could hear her SCREAM over all the other infants at the far end of the hall...for EVERY hour she was not asleep. Sensory issues and other troubles. D17 was somewhat less so, but still, another year of exhaustion. It was overwhelming to emotionally sensitive W, who said she felt like parking the car by the highway overpass, making sure kids were safe, and jumping off ... just to make it stop.
Household duties piled on top. Over time it turned out she liked parts of being a SAHM, but .... actually running a household felt stupid, redundant, and you never got anywhere with dishes, making the food, vacuuming, cleaning, or anything else for all your effort. So, things in the home piled up often. In theory, it was all her domain.
I would try to help, but often got resentment when I accomplished those duties after work. It was confusing to me as in my family growing up these acts of service were appreciated and thanked. It was normal. "W, I see you were busy with the kids all day so I did the dishes." "G, you make me feel incompetent when you do that"I haven't ever been able to resolve this dilemma.
D19, "momma left X all messy and dirty again dad." G, "I know D19, but she always gets upset with me when I fix it." D19, "well, that is her problem isn't it."
Originally Posted by TSquared2
I think the EA hurts more than PA as well, at least it does for me...the EA or a "real" relationship interest is where you feel them toss you out of their heart....imo.
I see she is doing the mental work, realizing what she has done and who it has affected and that she has run from so much and when will she stop? What if she throws all this away and STILL isn't happy? These are some of what she is sounding out with me.
This is true for me. I expressed this to W in that first month. "W, it would be better if you just wanted to f*k and get it out of your system." Snooping found - W thinks they had planned out the conditions under which they would both break their M for each other. W expressed later, "OM and I talked, what if we both ruined our M and then we didn't really work out? I have to try, he always knows exactly what I'm feeling." For a while I felt like I must be a terrible and incompetent man that my W could establish a "real relationship" until I had females tell me "G don't be stupid, no man alive is that magic. That is fantasy." Oh! Right! Reason returned.
Originally Posted by Starsky309
Stages of Remorse:
I do think your wife is in one of the early stages of remorse, but there are several stages. They'll go from "I'm sorry I got caught," to "I'm sorry for ME that I've messed myself up so much," to "I'm sorry for YOU that I hurt you (but I still don't see anything wrong with what I did)," to finally a more self-aware "I'm sorry for what I did because IT WAS THE WRONG THING TO DO, on so many levels. For me, for the pain I caused my husband, for the breaking of my vows, etc."
My W reached stage 2 last summer when OM didn't appear to be following through. "G, I know I'm responsible for the consequences of my own choices, BUT...." and then stage 3 of remorse late last fall sometime. "G, I'm sorry you got hurt in all this. I don't know what more you want from me." I haven't seen any further mental work. This doesn't mean it is or is not happening. She has always been very introspective.
And I've gone dark. At first to let her experience what she claimed to want. Then I realized later it was also for me, my peace, my recovery, and to be able to detach.
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H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
My W reached stage 2 last summer when OM didn't appear to be following through. "G, I know I'm responsible for the consequences of my own choices, BUT...." and then stage 3 of remorse late last fall sometime. "G, I'm sorry you got hurt in all this. I don't know what more you want from me." I haven't seen any further mental work. This doesn't mean it is or is not happening. She has always been very introspective.
And I've gone dark. At first to let her experience what she claimed to want. Then I realized later it was also for me, my peace, my recovery, and to be able to detach.
I have gone through this as well, I got a few "I [censored] ups", along with "Noone is ever going to want me". To me these are signs of things not going as well as they expected and having some remorse. But the biggest problem with this is instead of swallowing their pride and admitting guilt and remorse and returning to the best thing they ever had,is them potentially grooming a new target to get that same feeling and starting the cycle all over again. I guess this is the part that makes or breaks any potential reconciliation and likely breaks the deal once and for all for most
Last edited by Catman19; 05/03/2401:54 PM. Reason: Quotation
This post should have been written months ago. Many reasons why not, some peculiar to me, many for the reasons often discussed here - fear, inertia, etc...
Why now? I’m not sure but to let it out perhaps. I tend to be very self-contained. Or maybe so others can read, just like I have been to others stories, and not feel alone like I did at first. I forget when I found this forum while googling for answers. Likely around DB2. The regulars through the years, the welcome post resources, Sandi’s rules, etc… have truly been a lifesaver to my heart and mind and soul as I read, synthesize, and internalize. Though I’m not the type to ever physically self-harm, I now understand, to the core of my being, exactly why men suicide. Alternatively, for me it was a possibility there would just be a shell left on this earth with my name, but “I” wouldn’t be present in any real sense.
Right now? making moving myself along the journey. I am a better man almost a year later. I will continue.
Gratitude, Grief, ... ... Bitter Ashes
Though still, almost a year later, every day at random times it feels like a mountain fell on me. I can't breathe, can't see, can't think, my hands shake, I feel flattened to nothingness and tears fall ... and then the world starts again. Talking with my father and his experiences with hurt and failure - he described it as the world goes black and you can see no way out of the darkness. Then eventually you see bits of light that offer hope for the future.
I deliberated on naming myself Grief or Gratitude or now Grok as I always seem to seek understanding before I can react or process. (from Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land") Now perhaps I will just be G, as I am all three at the same time. I hadn't ever understood that you could feel multiple opposing emotions like this.
I wondered where my anger was for a long time. W did ask me early on if I was angry and hated her. No, I find it difficult to hate, I am a calm and collected person by nature and don't anger easily. Perhaps a suppression from childhood when I figured out with my intellect and capacity, I could really wreak harm to all around if I did not stay controlled. I knew where my anger was residing after coming across this quote, for I can see all the wonderful branching futures closed off and deleted as she chooses divorce rather than healing a family, and that loss grieves me to the core of my soul. Anger resides in a WTF of grief for me.
“I sat with my anger long enough until she told me her real name was grief.” ― C.S. Lewis
Nov 2022 – W: H, we have to talk. I’m not feeling “in love” the way we should be and used to. I feel attracted and a connection to a man at S12’s athletics (also one of D18's bosses at her work). G: Always rational me - OK W, this is troubling but seems part of the normal troubles in marriages by the 20 year mark. The burdens of life leave not enough US connection time and all of us will eventually come across people we connect with during life. What shall we do about it? I’m at a loss since you schedule the family busy for 6.5 days of the week and have given you all excess budget and it is all spent, admittedly on good things. … tears as I felt helpless on what to do with beloved who is obviously unhappy. In retrospect, I was not very knowledgeable on female communication patterns and male / female dynamics.
Christmas 2022 - Travel to see her family and my family in other states. Because of pet care etc..., me + kids for ~ a week at my parents and then fly her in for a combined ~ a week at her family. W seems grumpy and irritated. W doesn't seem to want to be close. I don't understand. But I am patient and await when she can say. I saw, but didn't understand the effect of seeing her parents bicker. One of several MLC triggers.
End of March 2023 - The night of infamy. PTSD generator. In house separation begins. ILYBINILWY
W: We have to separate. I have feelings for another man. We haven't been maintaining our relationship and I feel like roommates. My heart is hard and I don't think you can reach me anymore. My feelings are REAL!! G: I can't sleep at all. Up at before dawn, go walking in a local preserve. She is suddenly so cold, walled off, and dressing as such. Pray, write, think, in shock... come home after walking around until evening. Awake for ~40 hours. DB1, Day after Easter, April 2023 - W: I want a divorce. "I have to burn it all down and start over." I thought it would be not right to do this on Easter. G: I don't and don't agree with any of this in dealing with our problems. I will not deny you agency in any way however and will not obstruct you.
DB1 rescinded, May 2023 - Still in a tail spin, trying to orient and right myself. I had found a web site/guy who had a program to help men in separations. It was very helpful in focusing me on what I can control along with dos and don’ts that align with DB principles. I thought for a while this is what I was dealing with, a WAW, since that was how W described herself. I had been posting a song daily to FB representing something I felt meaningful to me. I had kept it mostly about me and not blame or provoking anger. Almost no one else knew at this point. This day though I was cranky and publicly posted a song link and lyrics on the way to work:
Watching the mistakes go down Something inspires the things I do yeah
You left me here face down Spilling blood on the higher ground
I get a call just before passing through vehicle entry security on the way to work. W: What are you doing? Our parents don't even know. I'll take it back. I'll not divorce you. G: Um, What?! We'll talk about this later. After a few weeks she demands her own place to live, but no divorce. I agree in the interests of giving time and space.
At the same time, finding out more about OM, both what she is telling me and yes, snooping. Crazy enough, I was just about the person she felt she could tell about what she was doing and experiencing! The experts here are right about snooping. Generally don't do it. The pain of seeing that dialog about me and our life distorted to someone else.... It did clarify what she was NOT telling me. She never directly lied though.
OM is - - Married for 5 years - Has a 2 yr old and a newborn now - Is one of D18's bosses (for swim lessons she teaches) - Is part of what was S12's sports (swim) - They had constructed plans of how to leave their families - W refused a PA, but doesn't believe an EA is a real thing, though in the middle of one. - OM did something with her phone so he can see the messages when she texts herself. OM replies by modifying her Spotify playlists, anon replies on social media platforms, etc... trying to be hidden and non-attributable. She accepts this as well and good so OM can see how genuine she is... W: "Oh, he's just protecting his family" WTF?! He's wonderful for putting all risk on you? From my line of work, I know you cannot hide this from even a limited forensic analysis. Four separate acquaintances, including IC and ex-FBI agent, independently described this as a control mechanism.
DB2 6/2023 - In the process of taking a hard look at myself and her accusations and hurts (I was still taking them very literally at this point. I have had so much trust in her judgements and opinions, it is very difficult to detach and look from outside.) I told the pastor of my church I needed help. I went to meet him and told him little of the things W had said to me, but that I needed to renew myself as I was in a rut and in trouble. After the meeting I walk out into the parking lot to find W parked there also.
W: What are you doing here?! G: Well, I considered what you said and decided I will work on my spiritual aspects as I have been slacking for some years. W: What did you tell him about me?! G: Very little, but some since this crisis is revolving around you. My conversation with him was focused on me and where I'm at. I can do something about me and he will help. W: Oh! OM told me not to be mad when I came over here. G: Um, right. Lets talk about this... After a long conversation about us, W devolves into talking about OM's wonderful qualities, realizes what she is doing. W: Oh G! I can't do this anymore. I love HIM! W: I will be the villain to everyone. The children will take your side and won't understand. My brother will never speak to me again. My parents like you, not me. No church in their right mind will accept what I am doing. I HAVE to do it like crossing the invisible bridge by Indiana Jones for the Holy Grail.
Weeks later - It really sinks in I have a WW, not just a WAW. The EA has given her the out for the WAW feelings she had. I wonder if she really wanted me to be the bad guy and reject her/divorce her to give her the freedom she believes she wants. The Christian values we had shared would not allow divorce for the reasons she has given so far. Repair of relationships would be demanded. M suicide by EA?
G: I am not your enemy. Don't let this be a legal fight and the state determine outcomes. I give zero support to divorce, but I will not block you. I will not restrict your access or contact to our children.
Mediation 1 8/2023 - Mediator: W, you are still living in the same home?! WW: Yes Mediator: G, do you feel comfortable with this?! G: No. (this was a reply on gut instinct and not thought out) Afterwards I told W directly, "Any complaints you have directly with me are fine. I will take them and you may stay here. But you have brough another man into MY HOME even virtually. That is incredibly disrespectful and I am not OK with it."
Vacation 9/2023 - As my workplace is transitioning support contracts, I must take my accumulated leave or will lose all leave. Instead of the annual trips to see family around Christmas, I take the three kids and me to the other side of the USA to see my family for about two weeks. WW drops us off at the airport and unexpectedly gave me a hug. First contact since separation. She feels thin. Has lost a ton of weight. She had been trying to shed it for 10+ years without success until now. The "why now" bugs me. I feel odd and don't know what to make of it. Try to keep to my no expectations and attach no meaning. Adventures galore with parents and hang with my two sisters who have been my touchstone rocks while I work through this. I don't message or contact WW. Head feels more clear.
After return, each day, I post on FB pictures and the adventure we had with my family. This is the first time WW can see what we were doing. I discover the home in some disarray with dog poop on the floor where she didn't bother to clean it up. She asks me to take a drive with her before the next mediation session.
WW: G, you know I've been feeling in a bad place. If I wasn't around anymore everyone wouldn't feel so bad. Not that I would ever do that. Everyone’s emotions are too much for me. G: That sounds very hard.
I check bills and credit cards and discover WW spent an $7,000+ more than normal in little chunks all over the place. I ask for joint cards back and take her off bank accounts. I pull from emergency accounts to pay overages. WW: Fine. It's time anyway.
She moves out 10/2023 - WW: unexpectedly via text "G, I'm staying at the local state campground X in a tent until I find a place to live. I'll come back during the day to see the kids" G: "you will do as you chose. sleep well, and stay safe"
She finds a place 11/2023 WW has been texting me properties and land for many months now. Never a clear direction. Wobbling all over the place. I had promised early on to pull from investment accounts to pay for any affordable place. The cost would come from her side of any settlement. She figures out finally she has no job so can get no loan. To be clear, she has a masters degree, is working on a second masters degree and could make as much as me if she chose that life style. I'm not helping as I said early on "if you chose this, I will not be some sort of half-husband to you." Finally, without warning...
WW: G, I need $20,000 on this property three days from now. I decided on this Fifth Wheel RV with only $600/month lot rent as my temporary housing. It even has a shed. Yay! G: Um, $20k completed wire transfer in three days?! We don't keep that kind of cash around. Typically, 3 days to sell some investment and another 3 days to transfer funds if you are lucky. Let me think. WW: Oh, I didn't think about how it would work. I might lose me $3,000 deposit! That is my foolishness (hands shaking). I don't have any money left. I spent the $8,000 my parents left me. No one is giving me dog walking jobs on Rover like they claim! I did get it done by taping a home equity line of credit I had established.
Thanksgiving 2023 - The kids and I whip up a great feast. We plan and cook together. We are starting to bond as our own unit. At the end of the prep S12 says "when is mommy going to come? I asked her and she said it is up to you daddy." I hadn't said a thing to WW.
G: S12, tell your mom she is welcome at XX o'clock
I do this for my children. I was calm and respectful. I asked the blessings on all of us as we need it and gave thanks for all the good things in our lives. I went for a walk by myself later to feel crushed and shake for an hour.
Christmas 2023 Her parents come out to our state in their RV. They visit and help her some. They refuse to give what she thought was her inheritance money. Her RV need work as I don't think she had a good inspection done as I suggested she do. She continues to intermittently come over most weekdays to be with kids as I had agreed to. First snoop in a long time finds "I am going over weekdays to make sure the kids don't feel like I abandoned them." Her parents and I get along well and they come over many days to visit with kids and me, play games, etc... Whenever they propose an event with WW also, I have plans. We all go out together to a hibachi grill once before they leave in Jan (WW included). Her and her parents had Christmas Eve at their RV with the children. I had Christmas morning and day with my children. It was a good day. I had enjoyed taking each one on trips to buy the gifts for each other and select “Santa” gifts for each other.
January 2024 Now? Routines with running a household and three kids alone takes a lot more out of me. I have discarded most entertainment habits I use to have, and it is to my and the children’s benefit. WW comes over most weekdays while I am gone for between 1 - 5 hrs to educate and visit D17 and S12 as we have homeschooled always. This put a real wrinkle in our futures, but I agreed for it to continue as it has been very good for the children. WW doesn't seem to do anything besides scroll social media on her phone/laptop or work some kids education while she is there. I suspect looking for secret OM contact or emotional fix. I installed a doorbell cam and a couple indoor cams to check up on kids since I am not there and she is often not either. I think that made her mad several times. Now I just am bemused at her occasional upset. I’ve had some of the NG habits that I am shedding slowly.
More to the back story and future story to come in other posts.
H:54 W:50 D18, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded (WW: "I know it's wrong") 5/2023 DB2 (WW: "I can't do this, I Love HIM") 6/2023 G: I am not your enemy. Don't let this be a legal fight and the state determine outcomes. Legal Mediation 1-4 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
I understand this is a very complex and heartbreaking situation. I feel deeply for you and your children, and the whole family going through this. It is undoubtedly a very difficult and challenging circumstance, and I'm sure you are experiencing a lot of conflicting emotions.
I can see that you have made tremendous efforts to preserve your marriage and family, while your wife is making some very tough and painful decisions. This is an extremely hard situation to handle, but I think you have been managing it remarkably well, with patience, rationality and care for your children.
I hope with the support of your family, friends and professionals, you will be able to navigate through these challenges and find the right path forward for yourself and your kids. While divorce is always a difficult decision, it's important that you keep the best interests of your children as the top priority. Please continue to persevere, and I hope that one day you and your wife may find a way to reconcile, or at least co-parent effectively.
I will always be here to listen and support you throughout this journey. Please feel free to share more if you ever need advice or just a listening ear. I wish you and your family strength and the ability to overcome these difficulties.
D17, "Dad, take me to the store to get more shorts like the ones I found last week. Oh, and you said we could get more popsicles and I want to do something outside." G, "OK, lets go in an hour. And yes, we do need to be outside for a while. S12, you are coming too.” He groans, but accepts a bribe of popsicles.
After getting popsicles (box x12 = 4 each), shorts, bird treats and misc., we headed over to a local nature preserve. I had noted months ago a table on the shore of a small lake a 5 minute walk from the entrance. Of course we ate one each on the drive over. Of course since it was hot we ate one each on the walk to the table. No one else there and a pretty view. Hot with a slight breeze and a little shade. Popsicles 3 and 4 each were promptly devoured. We noted they were small…shrinkflation taking its toll.
D17 wanted to talk about the kittens at the pet store a few weeks ago. They were cute but I said NO. Span of control for me is limited for now with our current arrangement.
D17, “S12 you should have been there to tell daddy to get them. Although the dogs might be a problem.” G, “I’m not sure… a swipe of claws to the nose keeps the dog away…” D17, “True, True.” D17, “Well, I think I’ll want six kids, thee goats, three dogs, chickens, cats, um… and some more.” S12, “What! You won’t be able to do all that. It’s too much D17.” D17, “no, you just have to work hard and not be lazy!" D17, “ I mean Daddy is taking care of and parenting three kids and like ten pets. It just takes work.” And on they talked about number of children, creatures, and property sizes needed.
O Huh. No mention of Mommy in there. I said nothing and kept practicing my STFU skills. Don’t know quite what it means. It just stuck in my head.
D17, “Daddy, what is this new item on your calendar? “Parenting” This was the mandatory parenting class required for divorces. G, “Hmmmm. That is a class because the state makes single parents take a class in being a parent.” D17, “That’s stupid. Why would that make you a worse parent.”
g
H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
Glad u have your kids to keep you busy, which I'm sure helps keep your mind off the situation. You're a good dad.
My boys are grown and have their own lives. Even though I miss them being young I'm glad they are out of the house and not having to deal with H's MLC. God only knows what we would have done if this would have happened when they were younger/still living at home. I'm sure we would have been fine.
I got this same direction from my sister today. I gave her a facetime call while going on a mountain bike ride...not that there is any mountains in my state...LOL. There are local volunteer maintained trails in my area where there was surface mining long ago. Now there is heavy vegetation and single track trails. 13.26 miles averaging 9.3 mph today. A little slower because I spent the first half on that facetime call. Steaming my view of the trail flashing by to her in their NZ home.
I told her I have ... calibrated? amounts time for myself. The kids want my attention endlessly and they are a priority. I try to spend some individual time each and some group activities each week. They seem to hold no unhappiness about me saying "No, I'm going out to do X now." "OK Dad, have fun." I take time for bike rides. I take Tuesday evenings to go to trivia night at the local brewery. I try to read a lot.
D19 said, "What are you going to do next Dad?" I don't know, maybe I should try learning piano. The one sitting in my house hasn't been used in years.
Lessons from D19 in attraction
Off to the store Sunday afternoon to pick up supplies for the week. Sam's Club this time and D19 volunteered to go with me when D17 and S12 didn't want to go. I always stop by the clothing section since the prices are good. D19 cackles with glee when I say I need to find more decent shirts for work.
D19, "Oooooo, I get to pick!" G, "OK, D19, settle down. I still have to look professional."
I pick up a blue shirt, a good color for me, and get "Boooring. Try this one." And she selects a purple button up shirt with little white leaf pattern. I don't think I've ever considered purple my color. It is a good looking shirt. She holds it up to my arm and face while nodding enthusiastically. In the basket it goes. Next we go around to the swim trunks. She skips over the plain colors and grabs one with bright wide stripes.
D19, "This one Dad. It's fun and you'll look good in it." G, "So D19, what you are saying is "Don't be boring"? " D19, "Yep"
TSquared2 Cont...
Originally Posted by TSquared2
BD #3 Her whole body is telling her that she is done with us, as much as it hurts her. She HAS to do this.
"G, I HAVE to burn it all down to the ground and start over."
They are driven and oh so certain. I wanted to cry out, "But I'm INSIDE what you are burning down!" Instead, I STFU and just listened. And turned to ash as the me that was, burned alive.
Originally Posted by TSquared2
Seems her new girlfriends are supportive from what she said.
"G, I talked to T and to S and ... They all agreed about you. They weren't so sure about OM though."
Yes, though in my case it is not new friends. It was divorced friends of hers. I don't believe she has any older solidly married ladies as friends to talk to. No advisors on that end of the spectrum. Perhaps ladies can fill me in here. It seems to also be an aspect of female group think. i.e. follow the herd tendencies. Or/and? is this an aspect of female competition where advice is given that brings the competition down? I've seen both talked about in discussions on female dynamics.
The things they say
At DB1... "G, my friends said the basic form is easy. We could go down to the court next week or the week after. I mean, I heard guys need release by the end of two weeks."
Three children, 20 years of multiple investment strategies, a house and a rental house in another state, auto loans, and ... next week? Also, guys and two weeks? W has and undergraduate degree in biology.
g
Last edited by grok; 05/07/2404:10 AM.
H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
Most female divorce advice is usually grounded on 0 legal basis. I've heard the dumbest stories of women demanding things lawyers would laugh at because their friends who also know nothing want some drama to talk about. It's like they are part of a reality TV show and their feelings are actionable demands and requests and their advice is to create the most chaos. And in terms of life advice women give the worst life advice to each other, it's never for the good of the person they are advising, because if the crap hits the fan those friends will distance themselves when the person makes a bad choice and needs to talk about it. Contrast that to male friends and most guys going through this seek people who went through it or married friends for good advice to help fix things or to help with how to deal with the inner turmoil.
In my case she was getting advice the most from a divorced friend who cheated on her husband, is dating a married man and hopes on taking his last name in marriage even though he likes the arrangement he has now. She told her things that I heard in audio recordings that stbxw regurgitated like a ventriloquist dummy. Her other friends all either ended their marriages for stupid reasons or are single promiscuous no hope women.
They will seek advice from people who portray being happy even though they aren't and disregard people in successful marriages because they want to feel good and enjoy fun. The successful marriage advisors tell them it's hard work, and for rebellious waywards they hear fun and run in that direction and ignore the taking accountability/working on marriage crowd and see them as old fashioned or boring.
Please let me know if you have not received notice of this or have a conflict that day. Thank you!
Sent from my iPhone
Begin forwarded message:
From: Attorney/Mediator Date: May 6, 2024
Please review the details below for your upcoming appointment.
When: Mon 13 May, 2024 Service: FINAL MEDIATION SESSION
Each time my soul is torn a little more. Time to write up those minor changes a L recommended. i.e. make the limited alimony non-changeable. Revisit access to the home on a yearly basis.
and the personal changes i.e. Whereas M is irretrievably broken -> Whereas W believes M is irretrievably broken. H does not agree or disagree but believes the future is unwriten. H leaves W to her
choice in men? affair? agency? Hmmmm... avoid snark and mean. Disagree and leave the future to be what we make it.
From a relationship advisor on X today:
Quote
Women today believe they deserve more than they actually do. Most are living in fantasy land. That’s why they…
Don’t marry Get divorced End up cheating
Staying Single: “I can find a guy that meets X, Y, Z (unrealistic standards) so I’m not going to get married.”
Divorce: “I deserve a guy that does X, Y or Z, my man doesn't, time to divorce.”
Cheating: “My man doesn't do X, Y, Z to make me feel loved so I’ll find a guy that does.”
They’re unwilling to accept reality so a life long relationship will never be possible.
G, " is my wife's answer to her unhappiness right now"
Advisor, "That’s not the answers to her problems, it will only add to them 😔"
g
H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
Western media and education system has created the self esteem movement, we are noe reaping the damage of it as these formerly could do no wrong children have become adults but adults only in age but maturity has been left behind. I read somewhere that bankers were doing a study where they are projecting by 2030 50% of women will be single and childless. And because the waywards and immature mlcs cannot ever take accountability or responsibility and rely on bitterness and resentment to carry them through i dont see any turnaround.
Mine has seemed to double down and refined her narcississtic traits and learned how to manipulate better, it nonlonger works on me of course but as long as there are men that fall for the trap they will feel no need to change, add in an enabler or 2 and they feel validated in their decisions.
Hang in there Grok. Just remember at the end of the day its not worth fighting and giving up your values and morals for someone who is willing to give up a marriage and a stable family. God does not reward those who are given so many blessings and cant humble themselves to be grateful for these blessings. You have shown so much resilience and fortitutde throughout this whole process, many of us admire your stoicism in the face of all the obstacles thrown in front of you, a lot of us could not do even a fraction of what you have managed to do, by being an amazing example for your children and by being a stable guiding force in their life when you have had to deal with a storm wrought by a lost soul. Sometimes it is best to be alone than to be with the wrong person, and when one can accept this God will bless us with the right person as a reward for our faith and perseverance. Your W will learn the hard way the lessons she has been given time to learn from up front but refused to do so. One cannot avoid fate and run from our problems, that road only leads to a giant wall. You are on the right path mentally and your children will be the gift from god that will give you life and love
I’m learning to be more settled living in the present. To not worry about future implications too much or the parts of a future that I don’t control.
I had several people ask me this week, “what are you going to do? Are you going to date? What is the timeline? When will the judgement be? Ect…?”
My answer was, “I don’t know. I’m not worried about it. Any D will come when/if she files. I believe she will. I’m living my life today. Minus the drama of W’s decisions (my new definition: drama = emotional violence) my children and I have a pretty good life really. Any other relationship will come if / when it happens. I won’t seek or worry about the things I don't need to address right now. ”
Contrasts….
When W comes over to see kids right now it is often in short bursts. Over the last two months they have been getting shorter. Happy giggles and so forth as D17 and S12 mess around with her. Cute instagram selfie of S12 and W happy faces posted this morning. All is happy, see! Look close and they are in her vehicle. Those FB posts presenting happy normal life.
Her claimed plan a the mediation was to spend 6hrs/day weekdays in the home while I am at work. Also unrestricted days at her place. More typical now was yesterday. I checked the house cams. She took D17 to gymnastics, came back by for 5 minutes with S12 (he wanted her to stay, she said something about have to go back to her RV right now), came over at 10:10p for goodnight hugs. She had been coming in the house ~9-9:30p for 30 to 60 minutes.
Now? Almost always after 10p when lights are mostly out and kids brushing their teeth. Since it is disruptive to evening routines and dogs to come in that late, she stays in her car and texts “anyone want hugs?” The kids go out to her at the curb and take 30 seconds for D19, 5 to 20 minutes for D17 and S12. I have not indicated any limits on their timing with her.
Left unspoken is why does she not come earlier and come in when it is not disruptive to bedtimes. Unspoken is why she does not take them to her place for visits.
D19, “What is she even doing all day? She doesn’t have a job. That would drive me nuts. There is no reason she has to come that late when I’m tired and want to sleep.” G, “I don’t know anymore D19. She has her own issues and plans.”
Speculation - she is waiting for the agreed 18 months of alimony and 50/50 asset split. Not so sure on her budgeting skills. Car and health insurance will be hers to pay at that point. Done right that will eat a substantial fraction. W made comments to the effect that she’ll just do without health coverage for a bit.
Ack. Continue to restrain/give her to God with my fixit stress.
Distant Early Warning - Rush
An ill wind comes arising … Red alert, Red alert It’s so hard to stay together … The world weighs on my shoulders But what am I to do? You sometimes drive me crazy — But I worry about you
I know it makes on difference To what you’re going through But I see the tip of the iceberg — And I worry about you…
D17 teaching
I’ve wondered about the homeschooling bit with W not present many days now. I’m keeping an eye on it. It is summer break for the schooling co-op program. More has to be done than that program provides alone though. The other day on a 1 hr day visit, W gave D17 instructions on daily schooling for S12 to do right now. Hmmm…. D17 has been following through with him. She said, “Daddy, I was bored during the day right now so I asked Mommy if I could teach him.”
How much is D17 seeing a gap and filling in for parents? I don’t know. It is good for D17 and S12 and disturbs me at the same time.
Morning humor, thinking of TSquared2’s garden.
In our tiny urban back yard, D17 has been working on a garden of sorts. I’ve helped her set up various pots, containers, etc where she has planted a variety of stuff. Middling successes over the last few years. It’s harder than Youtube makes it seem and she has found out. I let her succeed and fail as learning.
I helped her make the “soil” and set up a set of fabric planters outside the back porch door a year or two ago. Now, one of the little dogs has decided these are the perfect place to dig a little nest and sleep in the sun. Aggravates D17, so I told her this morning we could section off a part of the yard with remaining chicken wire. This morning was a change up though and we will have to do it sooner than later… Big dog, like many, does not take into account their size differences. He decided he should follow the example of the little dog….
75 lbs vs 15 lbs dog in a 3 foot wide fabric planter. I had to laugh, then shoo them out. The contrast though! Such a dumb and smart dog. D17 squawk’d. LOL
Coda
Originally Posted by JJ
The LRT should be a win/win situation.
You either get back a partner that wants to be back with you, or you lose a burden in your life.
It's a tuff choice at times.
Freeedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.
The flip from W as partner to burden is difficult to accept or comprehend. It is unsettling to realize I feel better when her drama and expenses are not mine to share. She was supposed to be closer than a brother. Did I put too much on another human being?
Closer than a Brother - Josh Garrels (Proverbs 18:24)
Fell on dark days Scared to lose I cry for You In Your arms, Lord Carry me through I won't go without You
O Lord, You're closer than a brother A friend that I can fall on
Working from home today, so right now we are off to the store with D17 and S12 at their request. Oh, um, what happened to shorter posts as I think of coherent sections?
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H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
My best man and I reconnected this last year. His question, "G, how are you and God in all this?"
If... - Beautiful Eulogy
"If in one unfortunate moment You took everything that I own Everything you've given from heaven above And everything that I've ever known ..... It would crush me, it would break me It would suffocate and cause heartache I would taste the bitter dark providence But you would still preserve my faith ... If I have you I could lose everything And still consider it gain"
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H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
U2- 40 Psalms 40 The Byrds - Turn! Turn! Turn! Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 Mumford and Sons - Awake my soul Psalm 57 Etc...
Yeah, I've always had a thing for music inspired by Bible verses. Somehow it felt more real than purpose made "religious music" genre.
Interestingly enough I've had an unexpected 180 this last year related to music. Before this year I used to be much more about the musical sounds than the lyrics. The closest I've been able to describe how I perceive the world with my senses is to say things unfold to me like those videos of fractals. All the notes and beats in music I perceived as overlapping and interleaving connections on an almost fractal mathematical basis. Beautiful to me. Now?... Well written lyrics hit me hard at the emotional level to the point I can't listen to a number of songs. Now you get me posting lyrics.
Originally Posted by Mach1
Coincidence certainly is God's way of staying anonymous...
Agreed, though to what end the meaning? In life I've never ended up where I thought I was going. I accept the coincidence and await what it will bring me. I'm wary of reading into signs we see. In my current state, or really anytime, it is far to easy to overlay our own purposes and desired endings rather than follow to His.
Symbols and Signs - Beautiful Eulogy
There's this idea that an individual Is somehow more spiritual If he sees these signs and symbols And takes what's normally invisible And makes it simple But I say the mark of a mature man Is the one who reads God's Word and understands And allows that to govern his decisions and his prospective plans ... I'm not saying that God can't do it Not saying that God won't do it That might very well be the case! I'm simply making an observation of how much weight you place on it ... I've never seen the partin' Of an ocean Or a cloud by day or pillar by night Just a normal everyday working of life Where things that suck royally Is evidence of His royalty Scratch your temple So deep it's simple Silly us, ignore the plain We prefer a riddle Dying to see a miracle While holding God's diary Looking for signs
I find this message overlaps with
Originally Posted by Puppy Dog Tails
Coach's Go by your Values and Beliefs, not Your Feelings Philosophy:
Respond in a way that reflects your values and beliefs not your feelings. As a Coach and a former military officer I know lots of ways to change how you are feeling. Feelings are fleeting, can be manipulated, can be dysfunctional, situational and are a poor compass. … Don't let your feelings define you. Let your actions which is a sign of your character. Handle it.
Nicely done with questions about dating, how you will manage, etc. Yep, leave the future to unfurl in its time.
Originally Posted by grok
Now? Almost always after 10p when lights are mostly out and kids brushing their teeth. Since it is disruptive to evening routines and dogs to come in that late, she stays in her car and texts “anyone want hugs?” The kids go out to her at the curb and take 30 seconds for D19, 5 to 20 minutes for D17 and S12.
Wow. Hugs at the side of the road.
Yep, some strange stuff sure does happen.
Originally Posted by grok
I have not indicated any limits on their timing with her.
Left unspoken is why does she not come earlier and come in when it is not disruptive to bedtimes. Unspoken is why she does not take them to her place for visits.
You likely need to, should, speak about this. And I mean with the kids.
Gentle steering. Open and honest dialog with them. I’d bet they find Mom’s later night side of the road look at me I’m a great mom hug disruptive too. Allow them tell you how they feel and see things. Encourage and support that they can say “no thank you” to such timing.
However, it does take time for kids to come to that. For a while, they cannot risk loosing their parent and will put up with much. During this, they will also lash out at the strong and stable parent; that parent getting a double dose. All perfect normal responses. When they are ready to start standing up to Mom’s behaviour, support them is all. Be their living example.
Originally Posted by grok
I’ve wondered about the homeschooling bit with W not present many days now. I’m keeping an eye on it. It is summer break for the schooling co-op program. More has to be done than that program provides alone though. The other day on a 1 hr day visit, W gave D17 instructions on daily schooling for S12 to do right now. Hmmm…. D17 has been following through with him. She said, “Daddy, I was bored during the day right now so I asked Mommy if I could teach him.”
How much is D17 seeing a gap and filling in for parents? I don’t know. It is good for D17 and S12 and disturbs me at the same time.
Do not let daughter be parent. She is daughter, and she needs to grow, explore, and be herself.
Yes, D17 can help out. Yet, responsibility for S12’s schooling is your’s and W’s. Now, W is a bit of a flake. So, that leaves you. In short, do it!
Be present and active in S12’s schooling and life. Heck, all your kids lives. By the way, is D17 graduating this year or one more to go? What about post high school education?
Lots gets put on our plates. I know you can knock it out of the park G.
Have a great day.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I have not indicated any limits on their timing with her.
Left unspoken is why does she not come earlier and come in when it is not disruptive to bedtimes. Unspoken is why she does not take them to her place for visits.
You likely need to, should, speak about this. And I mean with the kids.
Gentle steering. Open and honest dialog with them. I’d bet they find Mom’s later night side of the road look at me I’m a great mom hug disruptive too. Allow them tell you how they feel and see things. Encourage and support that they can say “no thank you” to such timing.
However, it does take time for kids to come to that. For a while, they cannot risk loosing their parent and will put up with much. During this, they will also lash out at the strong and stable parent; that parent getting a double dose. All perfect normal responses. When they are ready to start standing up to Mom’s behaviour, support them is all. Be their living example.
I had been considering if I should place a boundary on the timing. Some of her behavior irritated me also. Sometimes I have too much patience. I wondered if the lateness was a conscious or unconscious act to justify NOT coming inside the home, as she sometimes lately seems uncomfortable here. W didn't meet my eyes the other night when she did come in saying, "Oh, I'm coming in because D17 told me I HAD to clean the bunny cage." The thing is, the rabbit is hers. It is not D17's to take care of. I don't think she had cleaned the cage in a week.
For the moment I had just been observing the changes and actions over time. For the moment I let the kids interact without me fixing anything... including sometimes getting out of bed to say goodnight.
The children had been doing a partial version of "no thank you" to the timing. Each would exit the "good night" when they wanted to... and come back inside. Sometimes they let her wait while they finish their own priorities in the house and then go see her. Since that post, D19 has taken action on her own though.
D19, "Dad, I'm going to tell her to stop coming so late. It's after 10:00 and I'm tired and want to sleep. I have work tomorrow! She needs to stop that." G, "OK, D19. That is fine to tell her. She chooses when she comes over." D19, "I told her she needs to come by 9:30. She said she would."
D19 is the one who can risk. She could move out if she chose. She has a full time job and a car. She has her own life now. She stays because she likes her home and siblings while proceeding with a soft launch into the world.
Tonight W arrived at 9:50. Kids went out when they pleased. They were back in by 10:10.
Directionally better.
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H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
Most men arriving here have too loose boundaries...and lose respect...in turn losing attraction.
Originally Posted by grok
I had been considering if I should place a boundary on the timing. Some of her behavior irritated me also. Sometimes I have too much patience.
When you.... I fell.... If you... I will...
Go ahead and fill this out..not that you have to send it to her, but rather you will firm this up in your mind.
Getting my beliefs, thoughts, words, facial expressions, tones, timing and actions all in alignment is part of what I learned during this process. Continue to work on getting them all in alignment with her.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Most men arriving here have too loose boundaries...and lose respect...in turn losing attraction.
Originally Posted by grok
I had been considering if I should place a boundary on the timing. Some of her behavior irritated me also. Sometimes I have too much patience.
When you.... I fell.... If you... I will...
Go ahead and fill this out..not that you have to send it to her, but rather you will firm this up in your mind.
Getting my beliefs, thoughts, words, facial expressions, tones, timing and actions all in alignment is part of what I learned during this process. Continue to work on getting them all in alignment with her.
Just to 2nd what Mach says here, think of boundaries as defensive or protective, not punitive. The other party may feel "punished" if the no longer get the desired response from you they want or used to get. Your goal should be to make your expectations clear and set out the framework for having those expectations respected as well as create some accountability that is within your control. When I create or tune up my boundaries, I check my intent to make sure it is to care for myself and not to harm or punish the other party. A good therapist can help a lot here as a sounding board (as can this group). Not easy stuff and like any muscle it gets stronger with practice!
Mediator, "G, I see you have a section highlighted there. "Did you have a change on the education section?" G, "Well, I'd like us to review what we are doing for S12's education each year. I have no intent to change the described homeschooling since it has done so well for our other two. I am concerned though that the language locks us in to this method for all future years. I'd like to have a yearly schooling plans by us in case we want to change anything." W, "I take that as an attack on me. Are you trying to take that away from me?" G, "No, W, I am not. When we started, we agreed to decide on a yearly basis if homeschooling was the best thing from each child and adjust from there." W, "But this is something I have to do for them."
We did agree to language to reviewing the next years schooling plans in advance. It struck me later though, this was about her, not about what was best for the children. She was clinging adamantly to this method of education because it made HER feel valuable. Any other way was not to be considered...ever.
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H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
Mediator, "G, I see you have a section highlighted there. "Did you have a change on the education section?" G, "Well, I'd like us to review what we are doing for S12's education each year. I have no intent to change the described homeschooling since it has done so well for our other two. I am concerned though that the language locks us in to this method for all future years. I'd like to have a yearly schooling plans by us in case we want to change anything." W, "I take that as an attack on me. Are you trying to take that away from me?" G, "No, W, I am not. When we started, we agreed to decide on a yearly basis if homeschooling was the best thing from each child and adjust from there." W, "But this is something I have to do for them."
We did agree to language to reviewing the next years schooling plans in advance. It struck me later though, this was about her, not about what was best for the children. She was clinging adamantly to this method of education because it made HER feel valuable. Any other way was not to be considered...ever.
Steady on course Mach1. It's just ... a lot. and as expected a delayed nerve and emotional response to the mediation session where the parenting plan and settlement were signed. The waves come and go today.
...and S12 had a minor medical procedure. W took him and he's fine and on minor pain meds for a few days.
...and I came home early to take D17 to work because W said she couldn't make it. I picked her up also because W said traffic.
Audiobooks, podcasts, physical books. Nope. Music...a day for no lyrics. No thinking. Just feel.
For focus on the drive it's a random "Pretty Lights" day. A fusion of 40's swing/ambient/electronic beats something. I often find the overlay of slowly changing harmonics/intruments on top of repettitive beats soothing and focusing. Perhaps I am on the spectrum somewhere. Not looking at the titles while listening, these are the playlist songs I favorited today...huh, those song and albmum titles...
Something's Wrong - Filling up the City Skies - Pretty Lights Looking for Love (But Not so Sure) - Glowing in the Darkest Night - Pretty Lights Total Facination - Making Up a Changing Mind - Pretty Lights World Of Illusion - Glowing in the Darkest Night - Pretty Lights Finally Moving - Taking up Your Precious Time - Pretty Lights One Day They'll Know (ODESZA Remix) - A Color Map of the Sun (Remixes) - Pretty Lights
Back home and it's time for chill.
Things Left Unsaid - Pink Floyd - The Endless River It's What We Do - Pink Floyd - The Endless River Transmitter - Daniel Lanois - Shine Desert Rose - Daniel Lanois - Belladonnna
OK, one with lyrics. Because I found Daniel Lanois from his duet with U2. And because the music video makes clear the first verse is about why we are here in this forum.
Falling at Your Feet - Million Dollar Hotel soundtrack - Daniel Lanois and U2
Every chip from every cup Every promise given up Every reason that's not enough Is falling, falling at your feet ... Everyone who needs a friend Every life that has no end Every knee not ready to bend Is falling, falling at your feet I’ve come crawling, now I’m falling at your feet… .... (All fall down) All the information (All fall down) All the big ideas (All fall down) All the radio waves (All fall down) Electronic seas (All fall down) How to navigate (All fall down) How to simply be (All fall down) To know when to wait (All fall down) This plain simplicity (All fall down) In whom shall I trust (All fall down) How might I be still (All fall down) Teach me to surrender (All fall down) Not my will, thy will...
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D17, "Dad! Why are you watching that video? That is way too sad. Thanks for getting apricots. I'm going to go play with my bird."
H:54 W:50 D19, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
Steady on course Mach1. It's just ... a lot. and as expected a delayed nerve and emotional response to the mediation session where the parenting plan and settlement were signed. The waves come and go today.
It IS a lot....
It's also what's needed right now.
A true test of character is when you are up against it....
