2020-2023: H would say he was sad but didn't know why. Some reasons I suspect contributed to his sadness: H's mom passed unexpectedly April 2018; S23 moved out to college dorms 9/2019; D21 moved out to college dorms 9/2021
Feb 2023: H came home from work in deep anxiety attack and tears. H doesn't cry (Ever!) so I immediately consoled him to learn that he was confused and afraid to tell me that he had been eating daily brownies with pot for the last two years. Two days later, I asked him to move out because I can't live with an addict. While I regret this now, at the time, it felt right. H didn't move out. We talked and connected deeply over the next 6 months, including several vacations/getaways. H 'proved' he wasn't addicted by not having any edibles for 2 months but celebrated with one on 4/20/23. From then on, he kept craving and needing the fix (I assume to medicate the sadness that he still carried)
July 2023: H suggested he see a therapist - never did. H's friend passes of heart attack
Aug 2023: H going out with friends until late hours and drinking. H's childhood friend passes of cancer
Sept 2023: Bomb drop requesting space because it's not going to work - H shouts out reasons: H will never take something out for dinner; H will never remember to take out the dog; H will never come up with his own todo list; H will never plan a vacation; I shouldn't tell him what music to listen to; H doesn't like how I manage money tightly. We didn't talk for 3 days until he called me from work to tell me that he's sick of being controlled and is filing for divorce due to irreconcilable differences. H goes out every night and reports back that he drives around for hours on end listening to music. H cringes at me saying "I love you". H can't be hugged or kissed. Started sleeping in son's bedroom. Asked me to not refer to him with pet names. H be called by his name only.
Oct 2023: H looks at houses and offer is accepted. H can't look at me; can't be touched; doesn't want to talk; H behaves as a teenager, coming home from bars and beginning to vape. H never drank other than socially; didn't vape or smoke since he was 20. H contacts mediator and we hold an intro session where H is very engaged in how fast can D happen. H still drives around for hours, can't be hugged or kissed. Still sleeping in son's bedroom. H is visibly depressed and cries 8 to 10 times a day in front of me. Pretends to be happy with others. H gets a tattoo because that's his therapy - when I asked him what it meant to him, he couldn't provide any clarity. I think he realized that as he tried to put words together.
Nov 2023: I learn I have cancer and he softens. Wants to take me to all doctor appts, oncologists, etc. Not sure why the interest in my well being. H agrees that it's not wise to come home at 3 or 4 in the morning and agrees that he'll sleep on friends couch if coming home before 11 isn't going to happen. He slept out a couple nights at most. H still drives around for hours, but can now be hugged with prior permission. Still no "I love you's". Still sleeping in son's bedroom. But, for 6 weeks, at my request, he'd come into our bed to hold me as I was having panic attacks. H embrace was calming. Sometimes he was very uncomfortable but did it anyway. Until one night we had an intimate moment that was repeated often for 6 weeks...until he moved out. Thanksgiving was very hard - it also happens to be the anniversary of his grandpa passing when he was just 8. H struggled (as did I).
Dec 2023: H moved out and goes pretty silent for most of Dec. H comes around to wrap kids gifts, grab wrapping paper and a couple items he's forgotten to pack. H came over xmas morning and it was very hard. H held me, kissed me and committed to talking really soon. I thought this was it - he's come to his senses. WRONG! No texts; No calls; no Happy New Year.
Jan 2024: H wants to talk every day. Called me a couple days and then that ended. Only time we'd talk is to align on time for the next day's doc appt that were 2 hours away. I looked forward to my cancer appts so that we could spend the day together - it took an hour to warm up to each other but the rest of the day was comfortable like we didn't miss a day in each other's lives. Sometimes holding hands and embracing (mostly for support). H is visibly depressed and confused. Although I rarely call him, if I do, it's during work and he picks up and carries on for about an hour - mostly about work. H is excited to talk (not sure if its excited to talk with me or to just simply talk to someone). H gets 2 tattoos and reminds me that it's his therapy. H sends occasional texts to kids that don't ask questions and kids aren't sure how to respond. Text will say something like, Today is going to be a better day.
Feb 2024: I had surgery and he came by daily to care for me for about an hour. H and I agree to try dinners twice a week. H suggested Wed which I reminded him was Valentine's Day. H said, how about Thursday then bc he's not comfortable with 2/14. We had a few dinners but it was too difficult with late nights at work. That stopped. Cancer appts continued and provided 1 or 2 days a week of connection. Things were great when we were together....just like old-times. One day, as we enjoyed dinner after an appt, we stared into each others eyes with warm tender love while holding hands. I told him "I love you" and tears started rolling down his face. WHY? Later that week, on 2/14/23, I learn about MLC reactions (not the red car definition) and unresolved grief impacts on the psyche. It was eye-opening. H is still depressed and is quite forgetful but now I'm beginning to understand why...I think. H is not as anxious nor stressed to come by. Leaves our home one afternoon "to do laundry" and instead goes to get a nose ring and pierce his ears.
Mar 2024: We talked for an hour about grief and impacts grief can have on someone. I told him that I'm not suggesting our relationship was perfect but that it's understandable what he's going through - it was presumptuous of me but it seemed to resonate and he didn't combat my thoughts.. I ran through the above timeline and traumatic events. H was very attentive and it felt like he was surprised that I get it. I told him that I will stick it out or give him the D he wants. I just want him to be happy and let him know that for this reason, I didn't shed a single tear through the conversation. H cried a couple times. H left and appeared to be in deep thought - not much talking from his end. He managed to 1. express fear that I'm just faking my positive changes and that if he returns, it'll be bad again because anyone can be fake for a couple of hours. 2. note that he has many bad days (depressed?) but they're not all attributable to me. 3. share that he doesn't want to rush into D but in Jan he had second thoughts which is why H suggested daily talks. He's trying to figure it out. 4. Remind me that he's still leaning towards D but isn't sure. (My response was to schedule time with mediator for this week. He suggested we wait until after Easter 3/31). There's been no mention of D since. H also happened to mention that he's not sure God can help him. H is sure he needs to do this alone. At end of talk, he said he'd need a couple days to recover and connect. Still hasn't brought any of this back up.
Apr 2024: Early in April, for the first time, I shared how this is impacting me. I let him know that he abandoned me, the kids and the house. It's hard to maintain everything with 2 dogs while going through medical issues. H initial response was to walk out but he caught himself and talked it out. I thanked him and acknowledged that he had made a positive change. H was happy to see that I noticed. H agrees that I haven't been pressuring him nor do I give him anxiety like I did. He's gotten more comfortable with holding hands and spending time together, but still doesn't suggest dates. We only get together for cancer. I asked if he'd reach out when he's ready to talk again and he said he would. I asked him if he was scared to talk to me - H said no. I think he's begun to awaken and feel ashamed...and scared to admit it/apologize. I could be wrong....and hopeful. I sent him a text after spending happy hours together - no response. Why is he a picture perfect husband through cancer appts days and then a stranger?
Our anniversary is in 2 days. We haven't made any reference to it yet. He's taking me to a cancer appt that day. What do I do?
All this time (Dec 2023 through now): H pulls into the garage like he still lives here. H wears his wedding band daily. H comes into the master bedroom and chooses to use the M bath. H provides hugs willingly if requested and approved. H ghosts me between appts - and if I reach out with a rare text, he doesn't respond. H has no interest in repairing nor maintaining our home. "I have my own to take care of". H will suggest we play cards (like we would) or binge watch Netflix for an afternoon (like we would). H refuses therapy. H knows I love him and will never give up trying...but will give him D if that's what he wants. I (and kids) have been in therapy since Sept 2023 I have learned about codependency and tried to go dark in Feb/Mar/Apr but it's hard with cancer and I'm not convinced that I really want to drop the rope. I still wonder (without evidence) if there is an affair that I'm not seeing. I continue to offer a listening ear and to help him at anytime. I have GAL to a larger degree than I thought I could but find myself addicted to learning about where he is in the MLC phases (and if it's MLC that he's going through). I think of his wellbeing before mine and some days, still cry OUT LOUD for hours like this happened yesterday. I turn to God often and try to honor "Thy will be done." but don't always know how to implement this in practice. I've read many many many articles, including HB and some DB. Still, I struggle to apply what I read. I can't always connect the reading to my situation and timeline.
Is this MLC? Do I need to drop the rope or continue with enjoying as much time as he'll offer? Is he turning a corner and beginning to 'accept'? or is he still in replay? Do I continue to embrace him coming into the house as he does (comfortably)? What boundaries do I establish? Am I doing this right? wrong? What can I change to move us along as I feel like he continues to escape/avoid when there isn't an appt? Do I acknowledge our 26th anniversary in 2 days? If so, how?
A couple other key points: - H jumped off a cliff while on vacation in Aug 2021; fractured his hip and nearly didn't make it. H recovery was for 6 long months of doing very little and not getting off the couch much. This traumatized him. - H and I have had a beautiful and happy marriage (or at least we thought). We built a home to our liking in an elite neighborhood, two beautiful children who are well mannered and behaved, two dogs and a desired life filled with laughter and joy. We were looked to for advice and admired for the love we demonstrated with strength and faith.
I am sorry you find yourself in this situation. However, you have landed in a really good place here, IMHO. This site is full of kind compassionate folks with much hard earned wisdom.
Do you have a copy of Divorce Remedy by MWD? If not, do get one, and read it cover to cover. There is lots of really good information in there.
Do keep Divorce Remedy, Divorce Busting techniques and strategies, this site, and such, close to your chest. This information is for you, not H. H would very likely see this info and efforts as manipulation and trying to just get him back. (Here’s a quote from a wise poster, which I agree with:)
Originally Posted by Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Below, is a copy of Cadet’s welcome thread for your reference. It has a bunch of links to a trove of useful information as well.
I look forward to conversing with you.
DnJ
- - - -
Welcome to the board.
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by Michele Weiner-Davis. The following link is the first chapter:
Once your registration to the site has been completed you can post and start a thread. Please have only one thread active at a time (per forum); it keeps your situation organized and is easier for those following along and posting to you. There are a few forums which help categorize posters’ situations.
When your thread reaches 100 posts, it will be time for you to start a new thread. It is a good idea to link your old thread to your new one, and even link the new one back to the previous one. That makes it easier for the folks following your story. (There is a help thread on linking in the sticky threads at the top section of the forum’s display.) A moderator will “close” your full thread which prevents further posting to it. It is still available to read.
Post in small frequent replies on your thread. Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity can be very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Post on other people’s thread to give support.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
Thank you! I've read through most of this. Starting to read the 1st chapter of the book now. Any direction on how to live day to day? Do I ask him why he avoids me and my texts? Do I stop pursuing him? H seems to be coming out of fog and showing interest. I'm I mis-reading the situation?
Very good summary. You sound quite balanced and grounded. Well done! Good for you. You’ve definitely been getting a life and detaching to get where you presently are.
A question:
Originally Posted by MamaG
Oct 2023: H looks at houses and offer is accepted.
Did H buy a house? Or a rental? Did he move his stuff out?
I’ll see if I can shed any light or share some insight on your particular questions.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Is this MLC?
Short answer, in my opinion, yes.
You touch on MLC not being that Hollywood “get a new red sports car comedic version”.
Real MLC is a consuming decent in to the abyss. A person in crisis is driven by long ago, unrealized, unrecognized, unreconciled, trauma(s) which were inflicted upon their young self by a person in a position of authority. These traumas are significant and of such magnitude to be quite unable to be understood or accepted by such an emotionally/mentally immature child/teenager. As such, the trauma is buried, along with the young person’s self blame, guilt, shame, and so on; as they will, and do, blame themselves. This emotionally stunts them, not allowing the person to mature and grow as they should have.
As life progresses, various triggers occur, stirring up this long ago torment. And usually, the crisis person buries it again. Until mid life.
At mid life, pressures mount. Family and employment responsibilities, mortality, kids growing up and leaving the nest, aging parents, friends passing away, etc, all start to build. A triggering event occurs like has occurred before, yet at mid life the feelings cannot be ignored.
Long ago pains grow and pressure upon them. The person is entering their crisis, and is quite unaware of it. Literally, they have no conscious awareness of their past traumas, and they have no lexicon for how or why they feel as they do. And those feelings grow and grow.
MLC is emotionally driven. Some triggering event occurs, a wedding, birth of a child, a car accident, falling off a cliff, something that underscores their own mortality. They own aging and life’s sand slipping through the hour glass.
We all experience life transitions. And mid life transition is a difficult one to find peace and acceptance with. Likely the most difficulty of life’s transitions. Perfectly normal and healthy. Enter a person with past traumas and that transition goes right off the rails. That is a crisis.
That which is buried alive, will come back to haunt.
The MLCers is under constant and ceaseless torment. Unrecognized torment. They cannot figure it out. They cannot rationalize it. Yet, they feel and suffer it. Those long ago demons, which until midlife could be re-buried, no longer remain silent.
MLC is horrible! Absolutely horrible!
The crisis person is in such pain, is so desperate for relief. And desperate folks do desperate things. So they run.
They run from their ceaseless pain and torment. Lots spend money, do drugs, drink, have affairs, partake in illegal and illicit behaviours and activities, and so on. They are trying to recapture their youth, which they feel they’ve been rob of. Any and all activities to both mute what they are feeling, and to try to feel something. A person in crisis is very lost.
Replay and running are one and the same. The MLCer is replaying their life. They need to. They need to go back and grow up from when they were emotionally stunted. You’ll likely see, or have likely seen, time travel. The MLCer becomes, is, their younger self. A teenager. Much more brash and rebellious. And with a fat wallet. The most rebellious teenage kids is say a 10/10 on the scale, a MLCer is a 15.
A crisis is not rational. The MLCer makes emotional decisions. They are driven to. Their emotions are cranked to eleven, and they have no bandwidth for their spouse, kids, friends, or anyone.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Do I need to drop the rope or continue with enjoying as much time as he'll offer?
Both!
Drop the rope. Or be dragged. That’s your choice.
Let go the rope and give him to God. Let the big guy work on H for a while.
You didn’t break H, therefore you cannot fix him.
As for time with H, invite him to some family events and such. Not all, some. And have no expectations.
H may, or may not attend. Doesn’t matter, keep your expectations dialled to zero. Unmet expectations lead to resentment. And resentment is like acid to love and relationship.
A MLCer has the attention span of a gnat. They will flake or forget appointment, or simply cannot handle some interaction and will run. Like New Years for example. (Hence, the replay stage, running behaviours.) Do not take it personally. This is H’s journey, and it will be at his speed. You go about your activities regardless of his attendance or not.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Is he turning a corner and beginning to 'accept'? or is he still in replay?
Still in replay.
Tattoos, driving around for hours, moving out, and such. H is looking for time and space. He needs it. And he will take it.
Give him lots of time and space. Focus on you! Live and love your life! Let H figure himself out, and run to catch up to you. You don’t sit around waiting.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Do I continue to embrace him coming into the house as he does (comfortably)?
Read the lighthouse story in the welcome thread. (Link here as well: Lighthouse Story)
As long as interactions are not disrespectful, and you want to see H, having him come and go can be helpful.
This is H’s journey. Nothing you do can speed it up. At best your efforts will be neutral, at worst it will stall him completely. Focusing on you and the kids is your best course.
Originally Posted by MamaG
What boundaries do I establish?
Boundaries are premeditated actions you will take for disrespectful behaviour. Boundaries are for you. They are not some tool to entice behaviour modification, nor are boundaries punishment or a form retribution. Boundaries are for your emotion and mental health. Are actions you enact.
Let’s say H swears at you on the phone. Calls you disrecptpful and derogatory names. You state your boundary, and enforce it when he displays the unwanted behaviour.
“H, when you swear at me, and call me a b!tch, it really hurts me and is very disrespectful. When you do that, I am going to hang up the phone and not speak with you.”
And you enforce said boundary, rock solid!
Rebellious teenagers, especially 15 on a scale of 10, will test your boundaries. It’s normal when our teenagers do it, and so aggravating. One’s MLCer spouse is super aggravating. And they will smash against your boundary looking for weakness.
It’s part of growing up. They, teen or MLCer, needs to know, needs to believe, in your rock solid strength.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Am I doing this right? wrong? What can I change to move us along as I feel like he continues to escape/avoid when there isn't an appt?
Do more of what works, and less of what doesn’t.
Not being glib here. Every situation is different, and yet similar. However, you are living it. There is no magic answers or bullets, though we can tailor advice to your individual situation the more we know about it.
In my opinion, with what you’ve shared, H is in crisis. And a crisis is a long journey.
The basic path is to give time and space. Let H feel the loss of you and the relationship. He needs to.
A person in crisis has so much feelings of torment, and they incorrectly blame their loving spouse. Realize, the MLCer cannot blame themselves. They truly cannot! Their psyche cannot handle it.
So, they look around their life and see their spouse. In their mixed up addled mind it must be the LBS’s fault. So, they dig and dredge up every corroborating deed and word and action of the past that you did to justify their position. They’ll also twist, fabricate, make up, outright lie, to further their narrative and justifications. They have to!
Like I said, MLC is horrible! The MLCer lies to themselves so very much.
So, with time and space. Other feelings will/can rise in the MLCer. Other feelings like guilt, shame, regret. Other feelings that are useful to your goal.
In time, and with some good fortune H may consider something like:
“Hmmm. MamaG has been bothering me for a long time. And I’m still unhappy. Hmmm. Perhaps it’s not her fault. Perhaps it’s me.”
Most MLCers run from such. The MLCer will bait and goad their LBS into arguments and such to resupply their justifications and narrative. Do not take the bait. Let go the rope.
With time, and fate, and karma, lots of intervention that have absolutely nothing to do with you, H might see it differently. And might look inward.
It’s possible. And I hope he does. And it’s well out of your hands.
Focus on you and your kids. Keep moving forward.
Originally Posted by MamaG
What can I change to move us along
You cannot move “us” along.
You only control three things in life. Your thoughts, your actions, and your reactions.
You can move forward. You cannot move, nor force H to do so. In fact, he will fight against such.
Originally Posted by Mama2
Do I acknowledge our 26th anniversary in 2 days? If so, how?
Follow H’s lead in these type of things.
MLCers cannot handle pressure. Any pressure and they bolt. Pressure, trying to change them, forcing them, pushing the, right out the door.
Me suggestion. Get a card. A generic card. Not a lovey-dovey card for sure.
If H gives you a card, you’ll have one for him. If he lets the day go unrecognized, do the same.
It’s like relationship talks advice. Initiate no R-talks. Not for quite some time. H cannot handle the pressure. If H initiates an R-talk, proceed very very carefully. Let him do the talking.
That’s a lot of stuff to sift through and process. I do hope some resonates with you.
Have a great day.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
First, how do I thank you for the detailed response? This forum is nothing short of amazing. Sincerely grateful.
H bought a house and moved out minimal items - his closet and bureaus are still mostly full. H didn't take much summer clothes but has stopped in for a handful of summer clothes in the last week. It hurts every time I see him grab more - it's like he's moving out more and more and a reminder that he's not ready to move back home. Other than clothes, most of his belongings are still at home - he didn't take much more than necessities, our framed wedding picture, pictures of the family/kids.
When you say, "A person in crisis is driven by long ago, unrealized, unrecognized, unreconciled, trauma(s) which were inflicted upon their young self by a person in a position of authority.", could this be a very controlling and particular parent who dictated his decisions instead of considering his opinion? Or would it be more of an absent parent who didn't play ball with him because they were working? Recently, he mentioned that he attempted to commit suicide at 16 (I met him at 17) but I don't know what drove the attempt. Thankfully, he didn't. Should I try to probe to learn the reason? H's story to his family (back in Oct) was that he's D because he won't be controlled anymore. H won't be a 'yes man' any more.
When you say, "The crisis person is in such pain, is so desperate for relief. And desperate folks do desperate things. So they run.", I am being logical and can't make sense of the running. We've held each other's hands and gotten through all struggles together. What is the reason for not letting me help? Not trusting in me to help? I'm not taking it personally, although I did at one point. Rather, I'm trying to understand how to let someone (even if its not me) help him. H is so depressed and alone.
I've read comments like the one you share: Replay and running are one and the same. The MLCer is replaying their life. They need to. They need to go back and grow up from when they were emotionally stunted. You’ll likely see, or have likely seen, time travel. The MLCer becomes, is, their younger self. I just can't apply this thinking because since Nov, he is sooo depressed. Doesn't go anywhere. Man of few words. Keeps to himself. But has started to drink (not excessively but he never drank so he's drinking which is a change) and continues to smoke pot and started to use nicotine pouches to relieve stress. If he went back to 16 (attempt to end life), it would make sense that he's drinking, using pot (yes, I know it's legal in many states), behaving like a teenager. I remember him having a 11:00 curfew until he was 21 and HATED it. Often got angry at parents, but obliged. H wanted to stay in dorm with me but was required to go home every night. H was 17, 18, 19 then but still coming home for 11 resentfully. Could he be trying to relive those years without the curfew? And, that's why H would come home at 3 or 4 am in Oct? H LOVES his mom who passed 6 years ago next week. I would be surprised if any trauma is related to mom based on how he loves and misses her. Thoughts?
H doesn't call me names. H doesn't mistreat me unless I include abandonment. H is loving, soft spoken, caring...just doesn't say much. Oddly, since Jan, he's begun to reach out to the kids - sometimes with odd things. H didn't wish them a HNY either. But, he got a tattoo and sent a pic of it to them today - kids didn't know he was getting one. On the other hand, I knew he was getting one to honor his mom but didn't reach out to me today at all, and that includes no pic.
Love the lighthouse story - really resonates! Like I say, I don't always know how to apply knowledge learned. For instance, is me asking H to take a vacation with me smart? Is me 'letting' him take me to cancer appts smart? And, why is he the perfect husband on cancer days? Why does he NEED to take me to appts? "Let H feel the loss of you and the relationship. He needs to." This makes me think that having a family member take me to cancer appts would be wiser. Not letting him in the house would be wiser. Yet, none of that feels right...
In my situation, what are some examples that I can use to 'stir the pot' as I've read about?
Lastly, I've initiated R talks with lots of caution and he doesn't seem opposed, but doesn't embrace a scheduled conversation. Just yesterday on our way to cancer appt, I mentioned that he asked for space in Sept and that most people need 3 to 4 weeks; not 3 to 4 years of space ((I know that to not always be the case but go with it). He chuckled at the 3 to 4 years part and agreed not that long. Then I played along and counted how many months it's been since Sept as if I wasn't keenly aware that it's been 7 months. Cautiously, I then said, at what point do we talk again and determine if we should go in opposite directions or commit to our relationship? He nodded with no words. After waiting a bit, I said, "I feel like if I wait for you, you'll never approach me." H corrected me with a soft voice and said he will. I asked him if he was scared to talk or scared of me. H said no. I thanked him and asked if this conversation was making him uncomfortable. H said: "no, conversation is fine. " I then asked if he felt like I have been pressuring him. Again, he said, no. Based on yesterday, I was led to think that he's grateful that I put into words what he may be thinking and that he's looking for assurance that he can turn to me. How do you read this?
First, how do I thank you for the detailed response?
You are most welcome.
Originally Posted by MamaG
When you say, "A person in crisis is driven by long ago, unrealized, unrecognized, unreconciled, trauma(s) which were inflicted upon their young self by a person in a position of authority.", could this be a very controlling and particular parent who dictated his decisions instead of considering his opinion? Or would it be more of an absent parent who didn't play ball with him because they were working?
Or both. It could be person or persons in a position of authority. Parent(s) are usually the most likely. Uncles, Aunts, Grandparents, as well as teachers, coaches, priests/ministers, and such. Someone trusted and charged with the youngster’s care. A trust they abuse and twist.
The trauma(s) can be a singular or few events, or a long time (think years) of neglect, ignoring, abandonment, etc. Or both. And even more. My XW’s trauma(s), as much as I’ve been able to deduce, is horrible and twisted. An uncle’s actions when she was 7 and 13, known and covered up by aunt, grandparents, and parents. Coupled with a childhood of not being allowed to have anyone over to the house, or to go hardly ever go out. Basically no friends. So incredible different than how I was raised.
Children are very ego-centric; the world revolves around them. As such, they internalize these trauma(s), and they blame themselves. For to their immature minds, it must be their fault. Any questions they have would be to the very authority figure who inflicted it. So, no clarity or answers for the youngster, just their self-crafted story of “why”. Their young minds unable to grasp such troubling concepts, push it all down, bury it, deny it, elsewise their psyche would shatter.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Recently, he mentioned that he attempted to commit suicide at 16 (I met him at 17) but I don't know what drove the attempt. Thankfully, he didn't. Should I try to probe to learn the reason?
My advice would be to allow H to discuss as he feels. When he feels safe to explore. Do not push for any answers. When/if he brings stuff up, just validate his feelings is all. No other probing. Validating, will let H realize someone hears him, and he might say more as he uncovers more.
However, the LBS usually gets painted as the bad guy in the MLCer’s narrative. The crisis person projects upon and blames their spouse, unable to realize the true cause of their feelings.
Interestingly, affairs play a part in the horrible path. The MLCer crafts justifications to stray from their spouse. Remember, this is an emotional train wreck the crisis person is embroiled in. The affair partner is usually an affair down, a much lesser person than the spouse they are tossing aside. The AP is cast into role of parent or long ago authority figure, all quite unknowingly to the MLCer by the way. They use the affair partner. The AP is a band-aid, a symptom, of their deep trauma(s). The MLCer uses their AP as parent to rebel against and grow up from.
Of course, such a path is not the ideal healthy way to heal. Far from it. However, these crisis folks are stunted and not emotionally healthy, so they grasp whatever straws they can. This course brings about a myriad of other problems. As well as shame, regret, and so on. Which is even more stuff to run from. The abyss pulls them in, engulfs them, pretty quickly. It takes a long while to crawl out of such. And some simply never do.
Originally Posted by MamaG
When you say, "The crisis person is in such pain, is so desperate for relief. And desperate folks do desperate things. So they run.", I am being logical and can't make sense of the running. We've held each other's hands and gotten through all struggles together. What is the reason for not letting me help? Not trusting in me to help?
Because it’s not about you.
You cannot help him, for you didn’t break him.
MLCers are dragged back to their trauma(s). To that time. To that age. They behave like it. They see the world like it.
My XW lives like she was when she was around 18. When pressured, she reverts to a girl of 13. And with more pressure, she becomes a child of age 7. The very ages of her traumas. By the way, she was thrown out of her house and her parents’ lives when she turned 18. (Such a messed up family.)
I’ve seen her (witnessed by friend and son) alter, time travel, to the different persons / personalities. And it is the most spookiest thing I’ve ever seen.
MLCers are their teenage self. Your H, feels likely like his 16 year old self. Intellectually he knows you. Yet, emotionally, he is 16. A time when he was not married, had no kids, no job, none of the responsibilities, etc. This is how and why a MLCer can seem/be so uncaring and lack empathy. They simply do not feel it.
Speaking of feelings. Depression is ever present in a crisis. The MLCer desperately tries to run from their ceaseless depression, torment, and pain. A 16 year old H, remember not feeling or empathizing with you and his present married life, looks for some relief. Spending money is a pretty common running behaviour. Imagine a depressed teen with a huge bank account. Not likely to look inward as much as they would just spend and have good times to drowned the demons.
Things is, no matter how far one goes, how fast one runs, there they are. One cannot outrun themselves.
In the dark stillness of night, when lying in bed, his demons will come out to play.
Depression and lack of sleep shows and takes its toll. MLCer’s age, suffer aliments, and become less healthy. The very opposite of what they are trying to achieve with their futile attempts in reliving their youth.
Originally Posted by MamaG
I'm not taking it personally, although I did at one point. Rather, I'm trying to understand how to let someone (even if it’s not me) help him. H is so depressed and alone.
Good. Do not take it personally.
Unfortunately, MLCer’s do not see themselves as needing help. To them, they are finally living their authentic life.
Of course, they are running from everything and everyone, even themselves.
Suggesting counselling or therapy or such usually is met with anger. You can’t even lead this horse to water, never mind getting it to drink. Giving H to God. Time and space. I know, that’s a hard pill to swallow, to feel so powerless to help.
Originally Posted by MamaG
I've read comments like the one you share: Replay and running are one and the same. The MLCer is replaying their life. They need to. They need to go back and grow up from when they were emotionally stunted. You’ll likely see, or have likely seen, time travel. The MLCer becomes, is, their younger self. I just can't apply this thinking because since Nov, he is sooo depressed. Doesn't go anywhere. Man of few words. Keeps to himself. But has started to drink (not excessively but he never drank so he's drinking which is a change) and continues to smoke pot and started to use nicotine pouches to relieve stress. If he went back to 16 (attempt to end life), it would make sense that he's drinking, using pot (yes, I know it's legal in many states), behaving like a teenager. I remember him having a 11:00 curfew until he was 21 and HATED it. Often got angry at parents, but obliged. H wanted to stay in dorm with me but was required to go home every night. H was 17, 18, 19 then but still coming home for 11 resentfully. Could he be trying to relive those years without the curfew? And, that's why H would come home at 3 or 4 am in Oct? H LOVES his mom who passed 6 years ago next week. I would be surprised if any trauma is related to mom based on how he loves and misses her. Thoughts?
I think you have seen/see things well and with clarity. Hopefully, I’ve filled in some more blanks for you.
The big thing, you my dear are not crazy. The wild behaviours, the weird time travel, H’s moods, his ping ponging about, flipping personalities on a dime, all true!
Most folks have no clue about this stuff. Society thinks midlife crisis as a comedy - that Hollywood version. You know different. You’ve seen behind the curtain. Most people don’t and will not believe you. Even vehemently denying the existence of MLC.
Shrug, oh well. Until I experienced bomb drop and the horrific after math, I had absolutely no idea of this world. I was blissfully unaware.
The human mind is both incredibly strong and incredibly fragile.
My foray into this was BD. Then W, married 26 years, together 31, stood up after Thanksgiving diner and our full bellies, in front of my parents, our four kids, and son’s GF, and tossed this grenade upon the table:
“DnJ, I can’t live with you anymore. You get the house, the cars, and the kids. Unless you don’t want them, then I guess I’ll have to take them.”
She threw her own children away like they were old clothes!
Complete bedlam erupted! May Dad and one son got super angry. One son couldn’t breathe. My daughter was crying. I was just stunned.
W and I talked in the living room for a bit. She revealed her boyfriend. Told me I was old and she was not (I was 49 at the time, she was 46.) Her reasoning for her life change: the furnace blows cold air on her; my work truck burns too much gas while she was trying to save the planet (my/our personal car was/is a Prius); she needs sunlight, rainy days feel like death to her; etc.
Dumbfounded is understatement of my and the family members’ reaction. No one saw this coming. Heck, her and I sat side by side that very afternoon while we played cards. All nine of us squished around the table. Her and I together, pressed thigh to thigh. The Thanksgiving Day outdoor games and activities likewise enjoyed together. Then, kaboom!
She left that night. 10:00pm, three hours after bomb drop, she walked down the dark 1400 foot driveway to the awaiting OM. Over the next few days she moved out.
OM is my neighbour. He and her live 3/4 mile south of me.
W pushed for a divorce. We were legally separated in two months and divorce ten months later.
She’s still with him. She still treats her now grown up kids as used clothes. She’s a very lost soul.
I understand and empathize with you. I’ve found peace and contentment, forgiven XW, forgiven myself, and lead/raised my children as a single Dad for the last seven years. My kids are doing awesome by the way. Lots of open honest discussions over the years. I offer what I can, and walk with folks through their sorrow and pain.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Love the lighthouse story - really resonates! Like I say, I don't always know how to apply knowledge learned. For instance, is me asking H to take a vacation with me smart? Is me 'letting' him take me to cancer appts smart? And, why is he the perfect husband on cancer days? Why does he NEED to take me to appts? "Let H feel the loss of you and the relationship. He needs to." This makes me think that having a family member take me to cancer appts would be wiser. Not letting him in the house would be wiser. Yet, none of that feels right...
DB, at first, is highly counterintuitive. It will feel wrong.
Divorce busting is about taking rational well thought out actions and less emotional reactions.
The idea of smart or not, best or not, good or bad, is difficult. No one can see all ends. You do the best you can. Listen to the various suggestions of posters, therapists, family, friends, whomever, and do the best you can. And modify as you learn more. Grow and evolve.
That being said, my opinion, it’s too soon for vacation togetherness. After all, H is living in a separate house. He is actively and purposefully making space. Give it to him. No pressure.
When I first read your story, my thought was you should have a friend or other family member help you with travel to and from your cancer appointments. H is/has fired you as wife (or mostly fired). Let him feel the loss and consequences of his choices. Not in a mean or vindictive way, just let him lay in the bed he made. Besides, MLCers have the attention span of a gnat. Anything important, ensure you have a plan that doesn’t require H, as he is likely to flake out.
Take measures based upon your intellect, your reason. Yes, it will often go against your feelings. For a while anyhow. To me, it appears you are on the “right” path. Keep moving forward.
Originally Posted by MamaG
In my situation, what are some examples that I can use to 'stir the pot' as I've read about?
I’d not purposefully stir the pot. Leave that to fate, karma, the universe, whatever/whomever. No need to paint a target upon yourself.
To be clear, don’t walk around on eggshells, or be a doormat! No way! You live and love your life. Enforce necessary boundaries. If H chooses to not be with you, fine. If H chooses to be with you, fine. Either way, you will be, and are, fine.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Lastly, I've initiated R talks with lots of caution and he doesn't seem opposed, but doesn't embrace a scheduled conversation. Just yesterday on our way to cancer appt, I mentioned that he asked for space in Sept and that most people need 3 to 4 weeks; not 3 to 4 years of space ((I know that to not always be the case but go with it). He chuckled at the 3 to 4 years part and agreed not that long. Then I played along and counted how many months it's been since Sept as if I wasn't keenly aware that it's been 7 months. Cautiously, I then said, at what point do we talk again and determine if we should go in opposite directions or commit to our relationship? He nodded with no words. After waiting a bit, I said, "I feel like if I wait for you, you'll never approach me." H corrected me with a soft voice and said he will. I asked him if he was scared to talk or scared of me. H said no. I thanked him and asked if this conversation was making him uncomfortable. H said: "no, conversation is fine. " I then asked if he felt like I have been pressuring him. Again, he said, no. Based on yesterday, I was led to think that he's grateful that I put into words what he may be thinking and that he's looking for assurance that he can turn to me. How do you read this?
Something to remember:
Believe nothing they say, and only half of what they do.
H is emotionally driven. His in the moment words and most actions will come from his emotional state. Look to long term constant demonstrated behaviours. For a while, likely a good while, H is going to be a mess. Going to be all over the place. Questions of why he said something, or why he did something, is basically - because he felt like it.
Sometimes things are positive, sometimes things are negative with H, his words, and his behaviours/actions. Don’t read into it too much. Just a few data points so far.
MLCers move slow. Glacially slow. And they really don’t experience time the same anymore. Months, years, will pass with hardly a notice from them. Like Rip Van Winkle they miss out on so much. Kids grow up and are no longer the small children they left behind. MLCers are lost and trapped in their past.
H is on his journey. A journey you, thankfully, were not invited to.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
You said: A MLCer has the attention span of a gnat. They will flake or forget appointment, or simply cannot handle some interaction and will run. Like New Years for example. (Hence, the replay stage, running behaviours.)
My Q: with all the detail I've provided, can you call out other replay indicators/running behaviors that I'm just not connecting the dots to? BTW, he is no longer going for long rides and is trying to not ghost me in between appointments. I've made him aware of it by showing texting history - he didn't know he was doing it but is now catching and adjusting it when he notices.
Also, H agreed to a R-talk for this weekend. Assuming he makes good on it, what can I ask? I know ideally, I listen but as a man of few words, I may have to ask something to get things moving.
Assuming he makes good on it, what can I ask? I know ideally, I listen but as a man of few words, I may have to ask something to get things moving.
MamaG,
I'm not sure what you can ask about the R, but let me offer a few thoughts on the communication parts since I’m a man of few words myself. It is NOT that I have nothing to say or that I have no emotion to express. I usually think. Me personally I don’t always think in words, but in concepts. And then it take effort to put concepts, thoughts or feelings into words. Like most men, I don’t process by talking about it. I retreat to think about it. Or retreat to examine how I feel about it. Then I have to translate it into words. Don’t misinterpret silences. They generally won’t mean the same thing as if another woman gave you silence. For me that would often just mean I’m working through it.
I found in my reading this year that this was described reasonably well by a couple of John Gray books. They offer handy practical guides to translating behavior and speech patterns of the sexes.
- Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus - What you Mother couldn’t tell you and your Father didn’t know
And coincidentally my reading of TSquared2’s threads tonight included this post about men, talking, and feelings. Perhaps you will find it of value.
Also, H agreed to a R-talk for this weekend. Assuming he makes good on it, what can I ask? I know ideally, I listen but as a man of few words, I may have to ask something to get things moving.
Most people arriving here think that talking will help solve this. I do not recall anyone here ever being successful at that. That is why one of the IMPORTANT DBing rules is to avoid INITIATING RELATIONSHIP TALKS.
The successful ones STFU and listen and observe and change the way they interact and the way they behave when they are around the wayward spouse.
He blames you for his unhappiness. The only way for him to stop blaming you for this unhappiness is you giving him enough time and space away from you to realize he is unhappy without you and start missing you. He needs to feel like he lost you.
Friday, text him "Something important came up and I will not be able to get together with you this weekend. TTYL"
This is intentionally vague. Do you think this statement will peak his interest??? If you do not engage with him all weekend, who do you think he will be thinking about?
You are focused on the wrong person. Focus all of your energy on YOU and making positive changes to your behavior. How hard is it to change just one of your habits? I bet pretty hard. Attempting to change another persons (husbands) behaviors is almost impossible.
PS:
I am so sorry you find yourself in this situation. It was the best worse thing that ever happened to me.
I wish you well and will be praying for you.
HUGS
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
H and I had planned a vacation for this past week but MLC nixed that. As such, we were both not working. I typically see my H 2x a week for cancer appts - spend 4 to 5 hours a day with him, until he 'has to go home to...'. This week, I've seen him 4 out of 5 days. I looked forward to it so much (secretively). H is pleasant but his need to escape is so prevalent. It seems to hurt more when I see him more. Today, H left to go home to take a nap. Really? H is in our home and needs to leave to take a nap. People say I'm strong and days like today, I don't see it. The pain, heartache, disappointment just don't stop. H left and I curled up in bed just ugly crying. My reaction to H's unwarned "I'm going to go home to take a nap before my appointment." announcement caught me off guard and I immediately switched from content to visibly disappointed. H noticed and felt guilty...started to talk really nice and thanked me for a delicious lunch. "Did you get those burgers on sale?" I responded with a snarky response. H's request for a hug good-bye was reluctantly reciprocated and off he went. I acted like a 2 year old with a tantrum. So disappointed. sigh.
Anything attractive about your behavior when you were interacting with him? Anything you want to change?
It is like playing poker. Hold all your beliefs,thoughts,expectations,questions,emotions ect tight while interacting with him. He thinks he knows you. Right now, your goal is to prove him wrong.
And yes, by all means let out all the emotions when he is not around. Cry your heart out. Scream, yell, curse when it is safe.
Give yourself permission and go do something nice things for yourself this weekend. Do your nails, hair, new outfit....whatever helps you feel good about yourself. Dinner and movie alone is perfectly acceptable (and enjoyable).
HUGS
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
MamaG, one thing you can do differently is to make a pact with yourself to not initiate anymore relationship talks. They are a cheeseless tunnel. Your mind is tricking you into believing that you need answers. The problem? R talks rarely provide answers. And usually result in even more questions. So it's a vicious cycle. Make the choice to break that cycle
Let this be your guiding principle: Never initiate an R talk. If he does, listen and validate (learn what that is) and nothing more. And be the one to end the discussion.
Really commit to this. LBSs that initiate R talks end up being the most frustrated. Remember, R talks are fruitless and unsatisfying. You probably already know this from your own experience. So learn from that experience.
Sorry you are here, but I'm so glad you found the forum. Lots of good folks here to help.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
How was the weekend? Hopefully you enacted R2C’s wise advice and did something “just for you”.
I’m partial to a meal out. My hair and nails are pretty low maintenance. Haha.
Originally Posted by MamaG
My Q: with all the detail I've provided, can you call out other replay indicators/running behaviors that I'm just not connecting the dots to?
Some hallmarks of MLC are confusion and depression. Depression is ever present and there is lots of confusing behaviour. Their path is emotionally driven and not one of rational well thought out decisions. Rather which way to feel better, or feel less worse, or feel something, or feel nothing - depending upon what they are going through at that moment.
Overlay all that upon a teenage mentality and rebelliousness as well. A crisis person’s emotions are cranked to eleven! They have no bandwidth for you, their kids, their family, friends, work, nothing.
A strategy for these tortured and lost souls is compartmentalizing. Realize, they do not understand what is happening or why. Hence the irrational running away from their ceaseless torment.
Compartmentalizing can work, somewhat. It requires significant energies; the wearing of a different mask when out and about. Lots of MLCers let their mask drop when they are around their spouse, as they are simply tired of acting and wearing a “happy” face, and they know that we know who they are.
Of course, all these efforts are running from themselves. Building internal pressures. One of the most common types of MLCer is the boomerang type. They run off when their pressures get to much, and return/fly back when they cool down.
My XW was/is a vanisher. These types just leave. They just drop off the earth. No word from them. Like ever. Months, years, pass by.
In your posts there is plenty of behaviours from H that correlate to someone struggling with a crisis. An example except from your initial post/summary:
Originally Posted by MamaG
Aug 2023: H going out with friends until late hours and drinking. H's childhood friend passes of cancer
Sept 2023: Bomb drop requesting space because it's not going to work - H shouts out reasons: H will never take something out for dinner; H will never remember to take out the dog; H will never come up with his own todo list; H will never plan a vacation; I shouldn't tell him what music to listen to; H doesn't like how I manage money tightly. We didn't talk for 3 days until he called me from work to tell me that he's sick of being controlled and is filing for divorce due to irreconcilable differences. H goes out every night and reports back that he drives around for hours on end listening to music. H cringes at me saying "I love you". H can't be hugged or kissed. Started sleeping in son's bedroom. Asked me to not refer to him with pet names. H be called by his name only.
Oct 2023: H looks at houses and offer is accepted. H can't look at me; can't be touched; doesn't want to talk; H behaves as a teenager, coming home from bars and beginning to vape. H never drank other than socially; didn't vape or smoke since he was 20. H contacts mediator and we hold an intro session where H is very engaged in how fast can D happen. H still drives around for hours, can't be hugged or kissed. Still sleeping in son's bedroom. H is visibly depressed and cries 8 to 10 times a day in front of me. Pretends to be happy with others. H gets a tattoo because that's his therapy - when I asked him what it meant to him, he couldn't provide any clarity. I think he realized that as he tried to put words together.
No single item can definitively diagnosis H is in crisis. However, take his behaviour on the whole, the sheer “who is this guy?” of it, and a conclusion of crisis can be determined. A MLCer becomes the opposite of who they once were. They do all kinds of strange and - until now not normal for them - things. Staying out late, drinking, getting tattoos, being secretive, pulling away, cutting off pet names and other such fraternizing familiarity, finding new friends that understand them, and so on.
Originally Posted by MamaG
BTW, he is no longer going for long rides and is trying to not ghost me in between appointments. I've made him aware of it by showing texting history - he didn't know he was doing it but is now catching and adjusting it when he notices.
Be careful. Pressure.
H may see and acknowledge his behaviour. He might even work to do differently. Do not be the reason for it though. Do not manipulate his journey.
Firstly, you do not want that responsibility upon your head. If things were to take a wrong turn, a very wrong turn, and the LBS has been manipulating the crisis person’s path, the LBS will have lots of regret and remorse and guilt and such. You don’t want or need that kind of responsibility for H’s life and choices.
Secondly, H will not listen to you. Most MLCers are bogged down in denial. Remember, long ago, unrealized traumas. Their minds have denied their pain for decades! They have full denial in the face of consuming pain and torment. It takes much time for them to very slowly acknowledge this and slowly awaken to it. As such, they will fight against you and your wise counsel, thus prolonging, or stalling, their crisis. Best to let go.
Thirdly, these running behaviours are a pressure-relief to the MLCer. Being called out or having them pointed out, doesn’t end their crisis. The MLCer would likely just ignore you, however they could also do what you ask, and would then just start other more hidden behaviours. Maybe worse behaviours. They have to do something, they have to run. Best to let them run with what they have chosen. You don’t want worse behaviours to be because of your pressuring.
Let go and give him to God, or fate, or the universe, or whatever you believe in.
Originally Posted by MamaG
H and I had planned a vacation for this past week but MLC nixed that.
Why?
Go yourself!
If/when H flakes out, changes his mind last minute (which he is going to do), do not let his life and decisions ruin your life. Let go!
In my opinion: While H is living elsewhere, make no joint vacation plans. The most would be meeting up somewhere. As in, you each travelled separately, or made your own arrangements. And not for a week long get away. I would think H would unravel under that kind of pressure. I mean he “had” to go lay down in his own place before your cancer appointment. He is not ready, nor capable, of being with you for a week.
Originally Posted by MamaG
spend 4 to 5 hours a day with him, until he 'has to go home to...'. This week, I've seen him 4 out of 5 days. I looked forward to it so much (secretively).
Secretively is difficult. Small normal micro-emotions do and will come across. Your facial expression, body language, pattern of speech, wording choice, etc. We all express our emotional state through many channels. H will, maybe unknowingly, yet he will pick up on your looking forward to seeing him.
Originally Posted by MamaG
H is pleasant but his need to escape is so prevalent.
Yep.
You see his running. That need to escape. Stop being what and who he is escaping from. Let him go. Let him figure his stuff out.
The more you inject yourself into his sphere, the more he will blame and justify leaving, and not look towards the true cause. This goes hand and hand with the do not manipulate his path. Let H do as he will. While you live your life, focus on you, enforce necessary boundaries, and such.
Certainly, you can have H over, or see him once in a while. However, he needs to feel the loss, needs to grow. Boomerang types provide much more feedback and “proof” of their wild course than a vanisher. However, they are more work. Takes time to find your path and balance in all this.
Originally Posted by MamaG
It seems to hurt more when I see him more. Today, H left to go home to take a nap. Really? H is in our home and needs to leave to take a nap. People say I'm strong and days like today, I don't see it. The pain, heartache, disappointment just don't stop. H left and I curled up in bed just ugly crying. My reaction to H's unwarned "I'm going to go home to take a nap before my appointment." announcement caught me off guard and I immediately switched from content to visibly disappointed. H noticed and felt guilty...started to talk really nice and thanked me for a delicious lunch. "Did you get those burgers on sale?" I responded with a snarky response. H's request for a hug good-bye was reluctantly reciprocated and off he went. I acted like a 2 year old with a tantrum. So disappointed. sigh.
Expectations.
And unmet expectations turn to resentments.
Dial your expectations regarding H all the way down to zero. Have no expectation of what he might do. Expect anything and nothing.
So, make other arrangements for help regarding your appointments. Yes, cancer appointments are important. Do not leave such an important thing in the hands of an irresponsible teenager MLCer who is running from responsibilities.
I know you are primarily looking after your appointment. Take the next step and leave H out of the loop on this. Have a friend or family help - if/when necessary.
Doing so removes H from the equation. No H, and his behaviour won’t rattle you. Don’t worry, I think there will be plenty of other interactions where you can work on holding back snarky responses and such.
It’s ok, by the way. We all require our own releases too. A MLCer is difficult. Acknowledge and let out your frustrations about and regarding H, the situation, and such; before it boils over during some conversation or something H does. And he will do stuff. He will press your buttons.
Be gentle with yourself.
Hope you have a great day.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Thank you for your response. I get the sense that he has been very lonely and outings with me is literally 90% of what gets him out of any depressing moods. This alone makes me want to tell H that I was canceling breakfast and R talks for Sunday.....and would reinforce to H lonely he would be on Sunday after several other lonely days without me. However, I also am strong enough to go to breakfast where he doesn't feel any pressure and is able to genuinely enjoy some laughs with me...and then be comfortable with no R talk if he's not up to it. And, so I kept the plans.
I did give it a lot of thought to your suggestion so I appreciate you for saying it. Please know you didn't fall on deaf ears.
After breakfast, we came 'home' and he asked to play cards (avoiding R talks and I went right along with it as I was prepared for this - TY). We shared many laughs - par for our course. After some time, he said that he didn't want to talk today. I calmly responded with, 'That's ok. I'm here when you're ready. There was relief but he wasn't surprised that I was ok with it bc he trusts that I won't pressure him. PHEW. I asked H if he was ready for me to help him find a therapist who could make it easier for him to share and talk through things. Looked like he pondered the idea with a delay in response and said, "Not yet but I've been really thinking about it." Is this escaping and avoiding too? Did he really want to R talk but didn't know what to say? Afterall, if H didn't want to talk, he could've dropped me off and just left without coming in at all.
I agree that he needs to miss me. Several months ago, I was keenly aware that H blamed me for his unhappiness. It was clearly my fault that he was needing a divorce. But based on where he is today, I am struggling to agree with "blames you for his unhappiness". There may be some of that but he's admitted that he has bad days that aren't because of me. Thoughts?
In response to my request to help with understand replay behaviors, you noted, "Some hallmarks of MLC are confusion and depression. Depression is ever present and there is lots of confusing behaviour. Their path is emotionally driven and not one of rational well thought out decisions. Rather which way to feel better, or feel less worse, or feel something, or feel nothing - depending upon what they are going through at that moment." My understanding is that depression carries throughout all of MLC. I've definitely heard H out loud say, "I just want to feel happy. I'm looking to be happy in any moment rather than creating happiness." So, to start, the comment resonates but why do you see that comment surfacing in replay versus another stage?
Can you explain compartmentalizing a bit more. I've seen that he reveals more to me than others, but don't know how else I may be seeing compartmentalized behavior to better understand why compartmentalizing behavior is used. Can you help?
For H to go from not able to be in same room with me to now willingly spending hours with me before he needs to escape must mean there has been a shift? Perhaps movement through the tunnel. Can you help me distinguish between escaping and withdrawal behavior.
Certainly am not looking to pressure him. Question about this comment and pressure: "Of course, all these efforts are running from themselves. Building internal pressures. One of the most common types of MLCer is the boomerang type. They run off when their pressures get to much, and return/fly back when they cool down." Where/who/what/is this said pressure? I imagine it goes hand in hand with the hanging out for hours before he escapes....but pressure? Self-inflicted? real? what is that pressure about?
Your comment: "LBS has been manipulating the crisis person’s path, the LBS will have lots of regret and remorse and guilt and such. You don’t want or need that kind of responsibility for H’s life and choices." Not intended for sure. Is me speeding it along the concern? the manipulation? And, how?
Your comment: "H will not listen to you. Most MLCers are bogged down in denial. Remember, long ago, unrealized traumas. Their minds have denied their pain for decades! They have full denial in the face of consuming pain and torment. It takes much time for them to very slowly acknowledge this and slowly awaken to it. As such, they will fight against you and your wise counsel, thus prolonging, or stalling, their crisis. Best to let go." H really seems to listen to me...but it's like I speak a foreign language. My logic doesn't seem to resonate with him nor drive movement. In my mind I interpret that my comments are heard but confusing to him. Agree?
Would conversations about his childhood be helpful and/or insightful?
Mother's Day is around the corner and H's mom passed (likely set off the crisis on some level). H is in crisis and down. We agree. Leaving H alone on mother's day to cry seems cruel. Do I invite H to join fam for a breakfast? I know H isn't my mom but I don't know that I should leave H in deep-er depression. Thoughts?
My understanding is that depression carries throughout all of MLC. I've definitely heard H out loud say, "I just want to feel happy. I'm looking to be happy in any moment rather than creating happiness." So, to start, the comment resonates but why do you see that comment surfacing in replay versus another stage?
“I'm looking to be happy in any moment rather than creating happiness.” This hits the nail right on its head. H is looking to be happy. That comes from external sources. MLCers flit and ping-pong about from one thing to another trying all manner of activity in a futile attempt to try to find something to make them happy.
Of course, the world is a big shinny place. There is lots and lots of stuff to do to take one’s mind off of their problems. Heck, there are huge businesses built upon that.
Creating happiness is an internal pursuit and endeavour. Being at peace and content and grateful with what you have. Working towards meaning and fulfillment in all things - relationships, work, play, etc. This doesn’t stop pursuit of materialistic things , just the effort towards better is now focused or directed with self betterment rather than just trying to feel better.
Are you running from something or to something?
A person in crisis is running from their pain. That’s their reason. They are not running towards something.
The LBS, we tend to not run from things. A good response, IMHO. It’s ok. Standing still is still moving forward. Nothing wrong with being still until one knows that which they wish to head towards.
Such a comment as from H is within the replay/running stage; it’s its definition. The latter stages: Acceptance, one has traversed their path, accepted their demons, and found peace. They are not looking for happiness in all the wrong places.
In depression and withdrawal, the MLCer has let go of their pursuit of happiness. Their external efforts to fix their unrealized internal problem have all failed and turned to ash. They slide into the abyss and dark depression, sinking from the world around them. It’s here they truly start and come fade to face with their inner demons. Some run back into replay, and some dig in and persevere. The latter group is not trying to quash their inner pain with external fun times. They are growing up, realizing life is not always all fun and games. It’s also full of responsibilities, duties, repercussions for one’s actions, and so on. They see their path and blame themselves, which is quite a lot to find peace with.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Can you explain compartmentalizing a bit more. I've seen that he reveals more to me than others, but don't know how else I may be seeing compartmentalized behavior to better understand why compartmentalizing behavior is used. Can you help?
We all compartmentalize to a certain extent. Consider, the kids are fighting while you are getting them off to school. You finally get them out the door and head off to work. You don’t bring all that stress to work, you leave it at the door. (Mostly. Hopefully.) Same for bring work home. Two compartments. A work / life balance.
The best success of that comes when one can find, or more accurately, create self peace within each/all aspects of their lives. It’s creating self peace rather than finding it. Most things in life are out of one’s direct control. Yet, one can create peace with that, craft and direct how they respond to such stresses and situations. Oddly, the better you get at it, the less you actually leave at the door.
A MLCer has unknowingly buried, compartmentalizing, denied, their long ago pains. As they start getting closer and closer to bomb drop, their compartments start to fail. Far too much pressures to hold back. Bomb drop is a huge pressure release.
Further pressure releases occur as their compartments fill, build, and fail again and again. They aren’t digging in and doing their work, they are running from, trying to quash their pain with external things. (Spoiler alert, it doesn’t work. Of course, telling them doesn’t work either. It’s a life lesson they need to learn pretty much on their own.)
Compartmentalizing, wearing a mask, the MLCer hides their pain. From the world. From themselves. Until their walls crash and their mask falls. The usual response is then lashing out at their perceived object of blame (spouse, kids, whoever). And with said pressure released, going back to their now new norm. Masks and all.
Wearing a mask is tiresome. Maybe I just got old ; I don’t put on a fake face. Really got no time for that. lol.
Originally Posted by MamaG
For H to go from not able to be in same room with me to now willingly spending hours with me before he needs to escape must mean there has been a shift? Perhaps movement through the tunnel. Can you help me distinguish between escaping and withdrawal behavior.
Hopefully, escaping and withdrawal behaviours were somewhat illuminated from the above discussion.
Yes, H seems to have progressed. True, he can now be in the same room as you for extended times when before he could not. However, his reasons are his own. The why of his change is hidden, maybe even from himself. And he could revert back.
Don’t read too much into things. Looking for crumbs. It takes long term consistent demonstrated behaviour before you should even start to consider H’s better behaviours are becoming permanent. It’s perfect fine to hope, just keep your expectations really low.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Where/who/what/is this said pressure? I imagine it goes hand in hand with the hanging out for hours before he escapes....but pressure? Self-inflicted? real? what is that pressure about?
H’s pressure is real. To him. He feels it. Therefore, it is real.
As for its source. All of the above. Everything is pressure for one so consumed by depression.
Some is self inflicted, running away from one’s problems doesn’t solve or lessen them, and lead to even more problems. Work, family, kids, spouse, the clerk at the grocery store, all can be pressure to a person in crisis.
H is on an emotional runaway train. His emotions get triggered and reinforced by all kinds of stimulus. Some external, some internal. He cannot handle his feelings, which is pressure to him.
The LBS, we go through grief and depression as well. I remember, birthdays being difficult. Heck getting out of bed, brushing my teeth, was difficult. So much pressure to not just stay curled up under the blankets.
For a MLCer, that is increased multifold.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Your comment: "LBS has been manipulating the crisis person’s path, the LBS will have lots of regret and remorse and guilt and such. You don’t want or need that kind of responsibility for H’s life and choices." Not intended for sure. Is me speeding it along the concern? the manipulation? And, how?
It’s more a caution.
Let’s use my situation as an example. My W left and lived with OM. Say I called her everyday. Pleading, begging, telling her how wrong I was, to just come back, and so on. And she pulled away and ceases all communication for years. Is that on me? I’d likely place the blame for it squarely on my shoulders as a consequence for my interference and actions.
As it is, XW did leave and hasn’t spoke to me in years. I let her go and left her to her path and choices. Now, did my absence and lack of pleading push her away? Maybe. Although that’s a lot less likely. Pushing away requires some manner of force. Letting go is the opposite of trying to forcefully control the situation or someone. I’ve no guilt or remorse on my behaviour. I’ve not manipulated her nor her path.
Originally Posted by MamaG
H really seems to listen to me...but it's like I speak a foreign language. My logic doesn't seem to resonate with him nor drive movement. In my mind I interpret that my comments are heard but confusing to him. Agree?
I agree. H is driven, living, emotionally. Emotions are not of the realm of intellect, logic, reason, and language. It’s really hard to put emotions into words. If it were easy, poets would be out of work.
H’s current lexicon is foreign. Even to him.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Would conversations about his childhood be helpful and/or insightful?
Likely. Though not with you. You are the wife. Not his safe therapist, or parent, etc.
If H brings it up, you can certainly listen and validate. However, I’d not probe too much. Let H find his way at his speed. You want him to work fully through his problems. Otherwise H will repeat his crisis. And the second time around is far worse.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Mother's Day is around the corner and H's mom passed (likely set off the crisis on some level). H is in crisis and down. We agree. Leaving H alone on mother's day to cry seems cruel. Do I invite H to join fam for a breakfast? I know H isn't my mom but I don't know that I should leave H in deep-er depression. Thoughts?
I agree, the passing of H’s mom is a likely possible trigger for his crisis.
I’d not purposefully invite H over for Mother’s Day. That’s not cruel. H needs to cry over his loss. It may just do a lot of good to allow him to feel, and yes suffer. It is very rare that people change until they’ve hit rock bottom. H needs to hit rock bottom, before he is going to climb back out. That, at its core is compassion, and it takes a certain amount of indifference to allow someone their journey.
If H asks to come over, I’d agree to have him over. Same if he asked you to join him to go see his Mom’s grave.
Hope that helps.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
H has an avoidant dismissive relationship style. I hadn't evaluated him before in this way but understand that this stems from childhood upbringing too. This style fosters independence and therefore, H feels safe when distant; H doesn't want to be depended upon (by me & others); H has fear of rejection or dependence; H desires closeness while experiencing emotional turmoil. These also seem to be characteristics of MLC. Is he in MLC or does this style bring out/highlight the many fitting MLC traits (coincidentally)? Is it a recipe for disaster to be in MLC with this relationship style? Does H have a chance at making more progress?
When H dropped me off after appt on Wednesday, he suggested coming over on Saturday to take care of a water issue that I ordered some parts for. H's suggestion was out of the blue as we were singing and talking in the car. It's nice that he's now suggesting that we get together...even if it's not a 'date' request. H is more comfortable and trusting of me - I can feel it. Even if I can feel this I wonder if H is bored on weekends, is he missing me, something else?
Thanks for weighing in on Mother's Day - I will not invite him as much as it hurts me to think of what kind of day he'll have. But, if rock bottom is what is needed, I need to stop saving him from his hurt. I'm listening.
I'm reading more about divorcebusting and trying to be strong enough to apply what I read. As you can tell, I'm still asking questions that tell me I'm not ready to completely do a 180. It's hard to do - I know you know that all too well. It's hard to hang out with him for several hours at a time, see who I always knew and then have to let go of him for days with no contact. But, I'm doing it. TY for the guidance and thoughts and suggestions.
Last edited by DnJ; 05/04/2401:47 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
Is he in MLC or does this style bring out/highlight the many fitting MLC traits (coincidentally)?
Or is it both?
In some ways a crisis will spin a person right around. They often will become the exact opposite of who they are or have been. A Sunday school teacher could become wanton/wayward; a frugal person becomes a spendthrift; a caring parent starts to toss their kids aside while they search for their happiness. It’s all quite common script/behaviours for the MLCer. Affairs, being a terrible parent, spending, drinking, drugs, illegal/illicit activities, and such; all commonplace.
In other ways a crisis amplifies a person’s traits. Irresponsibility, avoidance, denying, lying, and so on. Unhealthy “default/underlying” habits and responses are exacerbated by their emotional turmoil.
It’s the chicken/egg or horse/cart; what is the order of things. The seeds of a crisis are planted long ago during their childhood. Those informative years are sadly bent and twisted, and the child gets emotionally stunted. Being so young and without good stable proper mentorship/examples they employ poor immature coping strategies/mechanisms because they simply do not know better. Hiding away, avoiding, lying, denying, whatever it takes to get through their day. It’s the toolbox they grow up with.
So, in a way, a person’s crisis started long ago, was interrupted, and continued/triggered at midlife. To be sure, not all experience a crisis. People have many interactions over their years. Opportunities for one to open up, or seek help. Some fortunate folks do get help, their path intersecting with a caring person or some such. MLCers come from the pool of those who did not have such good fortune; be that from lack of opportunity, or some inherent behaviour, fate, or other factor. However, the seeds were planted by the actions of an authority figure in their young lives.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Is it a recipe for disaster to be in MLC with this relationship style?
MLC is a disaster regardless. You are correct though, the difficulty, progress, problems, behaviours, are linked to the person and just how much running/healing/growing up they have to/need to do.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Does H have a chance at making more progress?
YES! Absolutely!
Everyone has a chance! I firmly believe that.
However, will H explore that chance? What path will he walk? How much damage will he do before he starts to turn around? Will he turn around?
Some crisis folks do so much damage, dig themselves such a hole, they become lost forever. Unable to face what they’ve done. Unable to make repairs to those they’ve hurt so badly. Or unknowing where/how to start to.
Your H seems to be on the positive side of this spectrum. He still reaches back to you, talks to you, suggests time together, suggests activities to do together.
Go slow!! Real slow!
MLC is not a sprint, it’s a marathon.
Dig deep for patience. Remain pressure-free. Focus on you. Let H lead his journey.
At the moment, H’s and your paths are intersecting. This has benefit of him seeing your changes and your life. Live and love your life. Live it! Be the lighthouse - for you!
That’s the big thing about focusing on you. It’s not ignoring H or some such, it’s not ignoring you. You live and keep moving forward and let H catch up.
All that goes hand in hand with not manipulating, letting go, time and space, and giving to God. An avoidant person, such as H, needs time and space. And he will take it, if not given. Realize he is driven to that.
You have the gift of time in all this.
Ah, time. The four letter word. lol.
H needs time to find his path and heal and grow. Time will tell if he can do so. Or when he does so.
Use your time wisely and well. It truly is a gift. One that takes time (giggle) to realize.
Originally Posted by MamaG
I'm reading more about divorcebusting and trying to be strong enough to apply what I read. As you can tell, I'm still asking questions that tell me I'm not ready to completely do a 180.
You are asking very good questions. Everyone requires a certain level of understanding before they can/will let go. Rationalizing and understanding takes time.
From what I read in your posts, you are stronger than you think or feel, IMHO. And you have already done some 180s. Realize 180s are not to turn everything on its head, they are for you. Do only 180s that serve you. Some folks have plenty and some have few. Sincere 180s are for you, and have the added benefit of maybe causing one’s spouse to take notice and perhaps pique their interest.
In my experience, finding answers to questions leads to more questions. Questions are the doorway to understanding. Having lots of questions shows a thirsty and inquisitive mind, not a lack of readiness. Mull over what you’ve discovered; consider the new questions that this knowledge and understanding brings up. It’s all part of moving forward.
Have a great weekend.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I read your responses several times and each time, I get something new out of it. I'm not questioning you and your experience, but rather whether MLC really is real. And, how can this be? It's surreal to have a perfectly sane man became a stranger who leaves an entire well-established family and life behind. Just somebody wake me up from this nightmare. I digress.
When I re-read this comment this morning, I started thinking about me and the path I'm taking. For once, I'm thinking, "enough about him". This is the comment you made, "Of course, the world is a big shinny place. There is lots and lots of stuff to do to take one’s mind off of their problems. Heck, there are huge businesses built upon that. Creating happiness is an internal pursuit and endeavour. Being at peace and content and grateful with what you have. Working towards meaning and fulfillment in all things - relationships, work, play, etc.". I wonder if I'm doing some running myself. I distract myself to the extent I can, but don't find myself reflecting on what worked/didn't work in our marriage. Not that I'm looking to own his crisis, but I certainly should and can own my repsonses/actions over the last 32 years that may have reinforced his crisis. When I find myself alone with my thoughts, I consume the hours with readings on DB, Hero Spouse, etc. instead of understanding my tears and frustrations. How do I own up to my end of healing? What questions can I think through why I cry?
In conversation with my doc at an appt, I mentioned that I was going away for a few days in early May. He was there and still hasn't asked anything about the trip. Doesn't know with who I'm traveling? business or pleasure? etc. I've avoided telling him with hopes he'd ask. Nope. I also know that he's been avoiding her calls and texts for months - Why? Doesn't want to tell the story? Feeling ashamed or otherwise? Should I tell him that I'm going to visit with his aunt? Should I tell him that I'm flying across the country? Do I owe him that much?
Appointments are behind us for a while so we'll see how much of a boomerang he really is in the next week or two. Stay tuned.
For the first time, I felt 'time travel' yesterday. It was subtle. He called me about carpooling to my son's bday dinner. His tone was somewhat upbeat and rushing, as well as that of a friend who was running behind. His words, "I just got home. I'll swing by and pick you up at your house right after I shower." First, his call surprised me. Then his comment stunned me. H sensed it (even over the phone) and asked if that was Ok. I course corrected my reaction and excused myself... that I was just in the middle of something and of course that would be ok. H's words brought me back to when we were dating and didn't live together. I know I've heard that line before and with that excitement/stress/tone. I immediately attributed it to him regressing to teenage years. Is that how you see time travel?
H's admiration and love for his kids was so obvious. I could see it in H's eyes when H talked with them and when he closed his eyes through the hug hello/good-bye. Maybe I'm reading into things but this is certainly nice in comparison with H's comments shortly after BD#2 where he told them that H is prepared to lose them in the divorce bc H needs to look out for himself. Yes, they were very hurt. And, also refreshing to the confusing texts he would send them, "Today is going to be a better day." I know I've read that the dogs, kids, spouse, marriage are the last ones H will return to (and in that order). Could H be coming around and on the back half of the crisis? Do I have the order right?
And lastly, how possible is it that H's EA is a guy-friend whom he considers a brother? H talks and texts with him daily and has since BD#1. They grew up together, work together, hang out with their weed.... To my knowledge, he still has no other EA nor PA going on. I don't have it in me to snoop so I may never know either. How common or likely is it that his EA is a good friend?
Hi MamaG, I haven’t been posting much the last few months as life is busy as a single mum but read your post and thought I should at least give you my experience. I’m 16 months in since BD. I had no idea about any of MlC stuff until I came on this forum and heard wise words from DnJ. I remember he even said “ i hope for your sake it’s not a mlc because that’s a true marathon”. Well turns out it was. He hid the affair partner and blamed me for a whole year before I stumbled on camera footage. He said they were just friends. He spent all of 2023 miserable drinking alot,saying the most hurtful disgraceful things, monstering at me constantly. He became a version I have never in my life witnessed. A bit of a clinging boomerang but never really getting anywhere. And I was sucked into his vortex of negative miserable energy. I did pretty good GaL to be honest. I still was kind invited him places included him where I could. I think the affair fizzled but he admitted to me a day before he left the country that it was a physical affair. I think it was all done and dusted but I feel his sister is his “MLC mentor” safe to say she probably had one and is telling him to get lawyers and find someone else to love etc etc. they will find people who will say stuff to justify them. What I have learnt is everything they say is garbage and projected blame at us is their guilt and shame that’s internally destroying them. My H decided in Sept last year to take a job contract on the other side of the world. He has been gone since January and as the months go his contact has dwindled more and more with me and the kids. This man used to be the most amazing father. Always there for his family, loved his kids, never would have left them, never would have ended us so easily without working problems out. Now he’s basically run away. Doesn’t even ask how we are managing ( I work two jobs, and run two teenage kids everywhere) he has gone really bad with money and I thought he would support his kids but he’s gone the opposite. It truly is like an alien has abducted him and put in place the most broken, mean miserable man I’ve ever encountered. And I’ve copped the absolute brunt of everything. I do still hope he gets himself through his crisis. I recently took the kids to see him and it was then I realised how bad he was. He had gone there for an amazing happy life and it seems he is further in the hole. I would say he’s dancing between withdrawal and depression right now. His energy and mood the whole trip was depleting to the point where my kids made comments and noticed. He constantly said “ I’m old I’m fat” etc. the hardest part is you want to help them, and you can’t. They push us so far away the ones that love them the most and so unconditional , and wear a mask for everyone else and keep up a fake facade. But behind all of that mask is so much pain and turmoil. Keep reading keep learning. Nothing is linear. Never have expectations because they can say something to raise your hopes then squash them. My H ticked the final MlC box of the “ fancy sportcar” that he’s considering buying. A “ boy muscle Car” as he called it. The same man that used to hate those sort of cars and said they are depreciating assets and it’s something to get you from A to B is now wanting one. The same man who absolutely made so much fun of his sister years ago when she bought this fancy sports car 🤣 if your H is truly in MLC I am so so sorry but strap in for a long bumpy ride. All I can say is forget about them and what they say and what they do. As hard as life is as a single parent full time and juggling everything I wouldn’t have it any other way and I would hate to be in H shoes. I have my health I have my kids and we genuinely are happy and doing stuff to stay happy. Sure there are days that suck there are days I still cry and miss my best friend and my soulmate but I know right now the man in that body is not the one I am missing. The man in that body is going through some sort of mental crisis and the only way through is to keep everyone else out. Get out and do as much stuff and stay positive. Be the lighthouse be the safe space. If they need us they know where to find us. Unfortunately my H hasn’t opened up about much now that he has gone completely into silent mode. But I trust he will eventually. I know one day he will drag himself out of this. I tried to minimise as much damage with the kids but it got to the point where he has hurt them so much that I can’t stop that anymore. The damage they don’t see until the fog lifts. And it’s their damage to fix. Stay strong and look after you and only you. My H was like yours last year. Hugs admiration for the kids, moments and glimmers of hope. I know his love is still there it’s just buried deep behind his turmoil. There were times he would even kiss me and then you could almost see the wall go straight up and the alien appear. Now he’s on the other side of the globe practically silent and pretending like we don’t exist. Whatever your H path is just let him take it. Zero pressure. You just be the safe lighthouse you just keep shining your light and leave him be the ship in the storm. He has to navigate this one on his own. There’s nothing we can do to help them through. I learn that the hard way always trying to help him. What I will say is I do have faith my H will get himself through. I just can’t put my life on hold while he does. When they emerge they can never remember much and have lost so much time. Our life isn’t forever. Make the most of every day. Be grateful for the little things around you. Work on you. I can honestly say I am loving the person I have become through this and the person I am becoming. Deep down I think H notices and loves it too he just can’t see forest for the trees because he’s buried in such an incredible fog that he doesn’t know which way is up or down. I’ll try and check back in when I get a moment but keep going! You’re doing great
M:41 H:48 T:20. M:16.5 BD: 15/12/22 -moved out 17/3/2023
Oh one last thing. If he blames you it’s never about you. It’s never about us this whole MlC. It’s always been about something in their childhood or teen or their own years that they have buried and stuffed down that is coming to the surface to be dealt with. There’s so many amazing old posts in these forums which helped me understand and accept this. H blamed me for anything and everything.Even as far as not putting my plate in the dishwasher some mornings when I was rushing off to work. But it’s never us. It’s always them. It’s their time to emotionally mature and grow and deal with those issues from their past that they have ignored. Seeing the bigger picture now I can see patterns in my H sister of MLc behaviour. Multiple divorces, sports car, running behaviour, bouncing from man to man never happy or satisfied( and now mentoring her little brother to do the same). It really is a horrible time but trust the man you once knew is still in there and he had the tools to dig his way out 😘
M:41 H:48 T:20. M:16.5 BD: 15/12/22 -moved out 17/3/2023
Pattnee is one of many wise posters around here. She’s been through the wringer and emerged pretty darn awesome methinks.
(Hi Pat. Oh my, he’s looking to buy a sports car. Yep, another box ticked on the list.)
Originally Posted by MamaG
I read your responses several times and each time, I get something new out of it. I'm not questioning you and your experience, but rather whether MLC really is real. And, how can this be? It's surreal to have a perfectly sane man became a stranger who leaves an entire well-established family and life behind. Just somebody wake me up from this nightmare.
Yes, it’s surreal. An entire world and experience completely hidden away from us, until one is thrust into it. I had no idea, was blissfully unaware, that this horrible MLC even existed. It challenges our other preconceived notions of what we assuredly know.
As I said before, you are doing fine. Rationalizing and understand takes time.
For what it’s worth, you don’t wake up from this nightmare, you wake up to this nightmare. And in doing so, the nightmare looses its power over you. The fear, pain, doubt, etc, all become understood and accepted. The nightmare is H’s, not your’s.
Originally Posted by MamaG
I wonder if I'm doing some running myself. I distract myself to the extent I can, but don't find myself reflecting on what worked/didn't work in our marriage. Not that I'm looking to own his crisis, but I certainly should and can own my repsonses/actions over the last 32 years that may have reinforced his crisis. When I find myself alone with my thoughts, I consume the hours with readings on DB, Hero Spouse, etc. instead of understanding my tears and frustrations. How do I own up to my end of healing? What questions can I think through why I cry?
The simple act of realizing and asking the above, illustrates you are not running.
Yes, we all distract ourselves at the begining. We have to. There is just too much to handle all at once. Yet, fear not. Your mind is still churning away.
We focus on ourselves. We get a life. We control what we can - our thoughts, actions, and reactions. We purposefully direct our conscious mind to efforts and tasks. Meanwhile, our subconscious mind churns away. Slowly mulling things over. Questions arise, new information is sought, old and new information is pondered, more answers come.
We cannot directly control our subconscious mind. However, we do interact with it. How we think, what we do, has an affect. Distracting, or more accurately, focusing on self, allows our deep self to heal and find our answers.
Answers do present themselves when we are calm. Calming our conscious self, calms our subconscious self.
Running is frantic, energetic without a heading. Focusing is the opposite of that.
To own your healing: Follow the sting. Dig into what hurts. Hold yourself accountable for your part. Only your part! We all make and made mistakes. Afterall, we only had a few tools in our toolbox back then. Grow, heal, and move forward. Become MamaG2.0.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Should I tell him that I'm going to visit with his aunt? Should I tell him that I'm flying across the country? Do I owe him that much?
H was at the doctor appountment and heard about your trip. He hasn’t ask you anything. I’d leave it be. Don’t initiate telling him. And no, you do not owe him that much. He fired you as wife, let him feel the loss.
Be kind and cordial, and focus on you. Live and love your life!
Originally Posted by MamaG
H's words brought me back to when we were dating and didn't live together. I know I've heard that line before and with that excitement/stress/tone. I immediately attributed it to him regressing to teenage years. Is that how you see time travel?
Yes, that is time travel. (That was a mild demonstration from him.)
Kind of weird, and interesting, how H has recreated you and he not living together. Like when he was a teenager.
Mentally, emotionally, H is/was back in time. For that conversation H felt like a teenager. Thought like his teenage self. Not the responsibilities of his present older self and life. That is how they run. Trying to escape themselves. Trying to relive, and grow up, from when they were emotionally stunted.
Originally Posted by MamaG
he told them that H is prepared to lose them in the divorce bc H needs to look out for himself.
That is a big indicator of a crisis. Healthy people, adults, parents, do not toss away their kids.
A teenage H, well he ain’t married, and has no kids. That time travel really twists them up. H’s empathy chip is broken. Pretty common for a MLCer, BTW.
Originally Posted by MamaG
I've read that the dogs, kids, spouse, marriage are the last ones H will return to (and in that order). Could H be coming around and on the back half of the crisis? Do I have the order right?
If they reconnect, it is in the opposite order that they tossed folks aside. From the least they hurt and blamed to who they most did. As such, the spouse is usually last. The order makes sense, pets are pretty non-judgemental. Reconnecting would have little fear, as there is no judgment from a dog.
Some only reconnect part way. Maybe pets. Maybe kids.
Is H on the back end of a crisis? Likely not. A rule of thumb, if you have to ask, then likely not. Replay/running is a long stage. And it is confusing. If you are unsure of where/when H is, he is likely running.
When, if, H exits running/replay - you will know. There will be no doubts. Exiting replay means H has stopped running and is facing all he has done, and what was done to him long ago. The withdrawal and depression is deep and staggering.
Is H making progress? Yes, I believe so.
Remember, a hallmark of a crisis is confusion. H is not always some teenage version of himself. He bounces around. Back and forth. Emotionally driven. His at the moment state is derived by how he feels at that moment. As such, sometimes, old H will flash by. And be buried again.
An experience from my XW and situation: I thought she was reconnecting with the kids a while ago. She had reached out. Was even friendly with them. I thought, hmm perhaps.
Time will tell the tale.
Turns out, no. She was attempting to coerce and pull the kids to her way of thinking/feeling. She even went to their house, and blasted them. Told them they were wrong and OM is a wonderful guy.
And time travel is mixed in too. Seven years have past since bomb drop. Kids have jobs, houses, spouses, etc. They are not the teens in school she tossed aside. Though, in her mind, when she surfaces, they are.
Speaking of time travel, XW recalls details from the past like it is today. She even asked my kids about my blue Ford LTD with zebra stripped seats. lol. That’s from almost four decades ago. Back when her and I were dating. Imagine how consuming and confusing it would be to have that swirling around in your head, while trying to deal with the present day.
To me, H’s interactions with the kids, is a mixture of a few things. H peaking out of the tunnel; a temp check; a teenager mentality connecting/trying to be friends (instead of being a parent); and confused H/Dad unsure how to express his feelings.
Originally Posted by MamaG
And lastly, how possible is it that H's EA is a guy-friend whom he considers a brother? H talks and texts with him daily and has since BD#1. They grew up together, work together, hang out with their weed.... To my knowledge, he still has no other EA nor PA going on. I don't have it in me to snoop so I may never know either. How common or likely is it that his EA is a good friend?
Good on not snooping.
An emotional affair. It is possible. Affairs are a reinforcement of some emotional band-aid they feel they need.
In my definitions, affairs have a sexual component. EA is fantasy, not breaking over to the real world PA. As such, EA is usually tougher to let go of. And is tougher to compete with. After all, it’s a fantasy. Made up. Reality will pale against a fantasy.
I think most crisis have an undertone, or direct trauma that is sexual in nature. Something highly traumatic stunted a young person. And they are driven to explore that horrible hurt to heal from it. Hence why affairs are so commonplace.
The typical affair of a crisis is when one desperately is trying to find happiness. They incorrectly equate sex with happiness, and get lost in the infatuation. A band-aid. A symptom of a deeply hurt and troubled soul.
Interestingly, the MLCer recreates their messed up dynamic of long ago, the affair partner being the parent (authority figure). The affair is designed to fail. They need to break up, and therefore grow up, from their surrogate parent. That’s why the LBS cannot fill the role. The AP is being used and would be left.
Given H’s guy friend is more like a brother, let’s define him as more an emotional crutch. The “brother”, the daily talks and texts, the weed, all running behaviours. All pushing aside the pressures of reality.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Pattnee5, thanks for sharing your story. I'm so sorry that you're going through this, but happy to hear that you're carrying on. I have soooo many questions. Hope you don't mind. If he hadn't moved across the world, do you think you'd still be seeing "Hugs admiration for the kids, moments and glimmers of hope."? And/or, would the "times he would even kiss me and then you could almost see the wall go straight up and the alien appear." have led to more and more until he got through? I'm in that place now - he'll hug and hold my hand for hours, go to dinner/breakfast, take me to appts, watch some Netflix, play cards. He runs out of steam and needs to 'go home', but is able and willing to do this several times a week. Do I continue inviting and doing things together? Am I holding him back?
I don't get much monster - can't remember when I last saw monster. H is generally calm and talkative about work and a couple outings he may have. For the most part, H's life is quite boring and homebound. H doesn't talk about kids, family, homes, R, anything else. Just work and seldom outings. H isn't arrogant nor trying to impress me. H is purely low-key and foggy. Any idea why H isn't a monster? Was your H always a monster through the 16 months or did he slow down at some point?
What makes you believe that your H is between depression and withdrawal? What actions/changes did you see/hear to lead you to think so?
My H admits to wearing a mask most days/times and says it's exhausting. It surprises me that H has such awareness. Is this common?
Would you describe your H to have an avoidant personality style like my H? I'd categorize myself as an anxious style. I'm thinking this didn't help our current situation.
DnJ, your responses take me a couple reads to process and digest. I'm so confused by all of this. As a logical person, this is all mind-boggling. Thank you for taking the time and always providing well thought through responses.
Love your nightmare correction. It's still my nightmare. What I haven't told you is what is on my backburner, as I focus on understanding this insanity. H's family doesn't reach out to him - not a close bunch. I've asked them to check on him and be more involved but I fell on deaf ears. They're disappointed in what they see (outward changes of piercings, tattoos, Duck Dynasty beard). Would you recommend that I re-ask them to be more involved? Or do we think H is better to be left alone as he has been?
And, the second obstacle I've been avoiding is verbally admitting that he's moved out. We live in a small town and I don't know how to tell this story, especially since his story isn't one I like to tell. (He is short and says, he bought a house and moved out.) Do I adopt his script? or say something like, H is going through some things and we're figuring ourselves out?
"Thought like his teenage self. Not the responsibilities of his present older self and life. That is how they run. Trying to escape themselves. Trying to relive, and grow up, from when they were emotionally stunted." I may have just connected a couple dots. When you say, MLCer runs, are you saying that H is running from being 49 and WANTS/CHOOSES to go back to childhood trauma for a do-over? H actually wants to go back? I've been thinking MLCer has been running from the childhood trauma so H doesn't have to face it. If H is choosing to relive those years to get through the trauma, it sounds like he may be between 17 and 20.
"When, if, H exits running/replay - you will know. There will be no doubts. Exiting replay means H has stopped running and is facing all he has done, and what was done to him long ago. The withdrawal and depression is deep and staggering." I can't imagine depression that is worse than what he's feeling now. And withdrawing (ghosting) more than he does now seems impossible but I trust you've been there. Sorry, I really am. What behaviors can I expect? What changes will I see? You say it'll be obvious - can you give ideas or what you experienced?
This comment resonates: "To me, H’s interactions with the kids, is a mixture of a few things. H peaking out of the tunnel; a temp check; a teenager mentality connecting/trying to be friends (instead of being a parent); and confused H/Dad unsure how to express his feelings." It seems like H wants to be friends - haven't seen much parenting but see him wanting to go to breakfast or hang out. I've even sensed that with me. H is perfectly comfortable being a friend but gets all squirmy with intimacy. Which brings me to another thought/question. I've read that MLC intimacy with LBS is not a connection, but rather a feel good about self moment for MLCer. Agree? In the few instances, things are great in the moment and for the rest of our 'visit', but he's said "I don't like how I feel" the day following intimacy. Why is that? What goes through MLCer? If H is 17 to 20 in his trauma (clearly driving to pick me up), I would think that intimacy would make him feel good the next day. Can you help break this down for me?
As for the EA and PA response you provided, I am so lost. Maybe I'm in denial but I haven't looked to understand affairs too deeply bc I haven't seen any evidence of an affair. What do you mean that an "EA is a fantasy"? Go ahead and laugh at me....Do you mean H is talking with himself? Talking with an online gal like onlyfans?
"I think most crisis have an undertone, or direct trauma that is sexual in nature." I don't know what you mean by this comment? Could H have been sexually abused? Sexually denied by a prior relationship?
thanks again for your patience with me and my confusion.
Pattnee5, thanks for sharing your story. I'm so sorry that you're going through this, but happy to hear that you're carrying on. I have soooo many questions. Hope you don't mind. If he hadn't moved across the world, do you think you'd still be seeing "Hugs admiration for the kids, moments and glimmers of hope."? And/or, would the "times he would even kiss me and then you could almost see the wall go straight up and the alien appear." have led to more and more until he got through? I'm in that place now - he'll hug and hold my hand for hours, go to dinner/breakfast, take me to appts, watch some Netflix, play cards. He runs out of steam and needs to 'go home', but is able and willing to do this several times a week. Do I continue inviting and doing things together? Am I holding him back?
I don't get much monster - can't remember when I last saw monster. H is generally calm and talkative about work and a couple outings he may have. For the most part, H's life is quite boring and homebound. H doesn't talk about kids, family, homes, R, anything else. Just work and seldom outings. H isn't arrogant nor trying to impress me. H is purely low-key and foggy. Any idea why H isn't a monster? Was your H always a monster through the 16 months or did he slow down at some point?
What makes you believe that your H is between depression and withdrawal? What actions/changes did you see/hear to lead you to think so?
My H admits to wearing a mask most days/times and says it's exhausting. It surprises me that H has such awareness. Is this common?
Would you describe your H to have an avoidant personality style like my H? I'd categorize myself as an anxious style. I'm thinking this didn't help our current situation.
Hi MamaG no worries I will try and give as much info as I can and hopefully it helps. I first noticed H drinking increased, always after a stressful work day he would drink more and more and usually when the monster in him came out. After BD the monster would appear if I would push any R talks or talks about us and he would get angry and storm out. He was usually a low energy wallower and happy to sit at home and do nothing. A few months agter Bd he moved out but was around all the time then would retreat and do his own thing. Sometimes he joined us for outings other times not but always would have dinner with us would watch movies. Held my hand occasionally then would shut down and run away. The drinking didn’t stop. He would try and quit then drink again. He is definitely an avoider. Always hated facing things or was too lazy to. Would rather bury his head in the sand. He would say we have hope and then he would get drunk and yell at me. They say the anger is good to get out. He never ever yelled at me though our whole marriage and he spent all of last year treating me like absolute garbage and said the most hurtful words. When I discovered his affair he stopped monstering but didn’t admit the full extent t until the day before he left. He made a knee jerk decision with the job in September and kept saying “ he hates his life he needs to go fix himself”. It really was a massive look at him and the turmoil he was in x there was no doubt at that point it’s a mlc, his whole personality changed so much. He had become someone I don’t recognise at all and he knows it. He looks to be filled with so much guilt and shame. All he talks about is how he’s old, how he’s fat, how he isn’t as wealthy as his sister, how the kids don’t like him for what he did. It’s like a massive pity party. He’s done all the damage and he knows it but won’t own it or apologise. He would monster at me at nights after a stressful day and drinking then come and apologise the next day unable to remember what he said. I never told him. It was bad. So bad. No woman should ever have to hear the words I hear and the old H would have absolutely hated any man that acted like this or spoke to a woman like this. That what’s makes me know he is someone else abducted. Mine wasn’t arrogant or trying to impress. He was a man that looked like he was just going through the motions of life without an ounce of joy or happiness or smiling. He would get up and tick the daily boxes of job, kids, drink. This was after bomb drop too and leading up. But it got worse after bomb drop. He got way worse. He was miserable. He took the job on a whim thinking it will fix his life he wanted to “ find himself because I have who I’ve become”. It’s like he knows there’s something wrong with himself then in the next breath if he is frustrated or drinking he blames everyone around him. It’s very jeckyl and Hyde. He would snap at the kids too. For no reason sometimes. It was draining I can see now the best thing about him leaving my space was for me and the kids. What he was doing here he was making no progress in getting better. I thought the move and job change would have inspired him but after seeing him recently he is the same if not worse. His self esteem has completely gone.( probably hence the need to message and chase skirt). As far as I know he doesn’t have a proper affair partner the person he was embroiled with was married and he kept saying he had to get himself out of that mess and disappear. He admitted to chatting to women and likely where he lives now he bar hops looking for someone to get him off. It’s just chasing happiness externally rather than looking within. His problems have followed him and likely escalated two fold.
How do I know he is depressed withdrawn? Because this man never would have gone almost no contact with his kids, very little financial help, not even asking how anyone is or how I’m coping with the financials and kids and everything. He has zero care for anyone but himself. This man would have always looked after his kids at least and now he’s talking of buying a sports car ( he never ever was a car person). The contact has almost completely gone. Since leaving the damage he has done to his relationship with the kids is huge he can’t see it. I can see it in both of them. My daughter recently had her boyfriend break up with her and she was devastated and I could clearly see the lack of trust in men she had all stemmed from her dad. My son misses his male role model but luckily where I can’t step in as that my brother had absolutely nailed it in being the father figure H isn’t. He looked miserable a lot of the time we were with him for the week in Los Angeles. His anger would simmer and you could see it bubbling away he was miserable to be around ( both kids even noticed it) the energy is absolutely draining. I remained quiet for alot of it. You could almost see his brain ticking away constantly. I think he mainly works, sits behind a computer and plays video games with his high school mates and goes out and drinks. Very teenage life. Conversation with him is hard it’s almost like he can’t socialise. He can’t loosen up. He can’t have fun. He has no joy in him. He has aged so much since leaving the marital home and family life. He is by no means fat but obviously has major body issues within his head. He’s obsessed with feeling old.
I don’t think if he stayed he could have gotten better. I expected the move would help him but he seems to have gotten far worse. They say they get worse before better. I would just take it day by day, there is no playbook. I thought H was coming out of it multiple times but boy was I wrong. MLC is the pits. It really is. I am 18 months in and as far as I’m aware it is a minimum 3-5 years. I don’t know what happens to them. What chemical imbalance there is. But some men are just terrible at dealing with mental health. I think my H is so ashamed of who he is who he has become and is running to bury his head in the sand and avoid anything and everyone and left a trail of destruction. If he stayed here and didn’t take the job he would not have got any better he was so stuck. By leaving it’s likely still the same but maybe not. They keep us completely out of the withdrawal stage. That’s how I know or think he’s in withdrawal. They keep their family completely out so they can sort themselves out. Whether he is doing any sorting or not who knows. The depression I can see. It’s so obvious the moods the low self esteem. He always looked so tired. The drinking to numb the emotions ( he def still drinks) We can’t do a single damn thing for them Mama except be there if they want or need us. If they feel safe enough for us. I thought H felt safe enough with me but since he’s moved and gotten worse and withdrawn I now don’t even know who this person is. It’s a long road. We can only hope they get themselves through but in the meantime not put our life on hold. H being here for all of 2023 showed he wasn’t getting anywhere. Let’s see what the move does long term but so far I can’t say I’m seeing much. I do know I was the best thing in H life and the kids. Sometimes they think the grass is greener in MlC and go chasing that life only to realise that it very much is just gross Hay. They have to live this path themselves. They got themselves in this mess with things that they buried in childhood and early life so now it’s come to the surface for them to heal. It’s really up to them Just tread carefully no expectations. Keep living your life. Be grateful for every single day you have and for what you have. Grateful for the time with H. Even at his worst I still loved him so much and hated I couldn’t help him. That’s the worst part watching someone you love in such turmoil and pain. We come to this board as complete messes and the H in so much strength very quickly the roles reverse and we rise and they spiral. My H was similar to yours after bd.Low energy wallower with clinging boomerang. The pattern was the same. He got social anxiety, was stressed and buried in work, as I said life itself was a chore. He couldn’t see the joy in life he hardly laughed normally it was all forced. I’ve seen glimmers of the real H but it quickly goes as the alien storms in. It’s horrible. MLC is horrible.they lose their memory. They become so irresponsible they forget who they are and were. You asked if he didn’t move away would he eventually moved home? I think only if he faced his issues and worked through. The pattern would have still been the same the withdrawal the depression the acceptance and the working through. Maybe he would have maybe he wouldn’t have. I think it would have taken him longer. I think now he is living with the full reality of his pain and choices and can see his problems have followed him ( when me and the kids aren’t there). He still complains about his new job and new work people ( surprise surprise). He complains he hasn’t been as vigilant with the gym and getting his body right ( no surprise). He has all the time in the world with only himself to care for yet he still seems so stuck in a rut.
It’s a battle Mama.As good as I am and as much as I am enjoying new hobbies and kids and our life I miss my H so much. The old H not this MlC version. I still want to help him I still know if he let me in I could be his absolute pillar of strength and love when nobody else can. But he won’t and that’s just MlC they push everyone out. It’s how they grow it’s how they mature within themselves. They need to find their own tools through it. We can’t do it because otherwise it will repeat. Ask away anything you want I will keep checking I have a bit of time up my sleeve now the next few weeks.
M:41 H:48 T:20. M:16.5 BD: 15/12/22 -moved out 17/3/2023
It's still my nightmare. What I haven't told you is what is on my backburner, as I focus on understanding this insanity. H's family doesn't reach out to him - not a close bunch. I've asked them to check on him and be more involved but I fell on deaf ears. They're disappointed in what they see (outward changes of piercings, tattoos, Duck Dynasty beard). Would you recommend that I re-ask [his family] to be more involved? Or do we think H is better to be left alone as he has been?
You asked H’s family to check in on him. And as you say, they are not a close family. You asked, they responded. I’d leave that as is now.
Originally Posted by MamaG
And, the second obstacle I've been avoiding is verbally admitting that he's moved out. We live in a small town and I don't know how to tell this story, especially since his story isn't one I like to tell. (He is short and says, he bought a house and moved out.) Do I adopt his script? or say something like, H is going through some things and we're figuring ourselves out?
This is often an area of concern for new LBS. Wondering, how do I explain the situation.
You don’t have to. You don’t have to explain anything to small town nosey neighbours. (I live in a small town. )
Different levels of information are appropriate for different relationship. Family, friends, neighbours.
Basically, just stick to the facts of the situation. An example, XW moved in with OM. I had to remove her from “our” post office box. No point having her mail show up here. Therefore, I had to let the post mistress know of some new living arrangements. I didn’t tell her where XW moved to, just that she no longer lived with me and the kids. That’s was the same for income tax, census, the town’s emergency response plan, and so on.
And in a small town, gossip travels fast. However, my MLCer is/was a high energy one. XW was flaunting her shinny new lover and life. The two of them were going to all kinds of events together. It was a difficult pill to swallow having her narrative spread around.
In time, the truth does win out. And it did here as well. I bit my tongue, went about my life, and let her and OM mess up their story themselves. That “no manipulating” is a tough thing to follow at times. lol.
Family and good close friends do deserve more information. That’s your family, not his. Blood is thicker than water. No matter what, H’s family will still be his family. And they will lean to his side. Or perhaps remain neutral. I know it’s difficult, do not go looking for allies and/or support from H’s family, parents, siblings.
MG, you are placing H’s relationship with his family on your stove; back burner it may be. And worrying about what to say about the current events; which is stemming from denial BTW. When you let go of that, you’ll let go of the nightmare. Well, this portion of it.
You can only control you. Not H, nor his family, nor what the townsfolk think or hear or see.
For a chance at some future reconciliation, and for your peace of mind (which is by far the better reason), do not salt the earth. Some go nuclear and tell all, openly blasting their wayward spouse and their affair to everyone. Very difficult to come back from such a thing. Don’t ring bells that can’t be un-rung. Yet, don’t walk on eggshells either. More facts than feelings. After all, feelings are fleeting.
Originally Posted by MamaG
I may have just connected a couple dots. When you say, MLCer runs, are you saying that H is running from being 49 and WANTS/CHOOSES to go back to childhood trauma for a do-over? H actually wants to go back? I've been thinking MLCer has been running from the childhood trauma so H doesn't have to face it. If H is choosing to relive those years to get through the trauma, it sounds like he may be between 17 and 20.
Yes, he is running from being 49. He is running from being old and wants a do over. To replay, to relive his youth and all that he feels he missed out on.
Is H choosing it? Sort of. Though more not. He is more driven to it. His emotions are pushing him, driving him, so much, so ceaselessly, H is desperate for relief/escape. And desperate people do desperate things.
H is running from himself. Yet no matter how far or fast he runs, there his is. (Pattnee’s H is realizing that from the other side of the globe.)
A crisis is a hard thing to understand, because it is not rational. A crisis is emotionally driven. It does not make sense. H will do strange, unreasonable, irrational stuff. Because he feels it.
We are outside of his crisis, and it is difficult to figure out. Being inside, like H, would be mind boggling.
Originally Posted by MamaG
I've read that MLC intimacy with LBS is not a connection, but rather a feel good about self moment for MLCer. Agree? In the few instances, things are great in the moment and for the rest of our 'visit', but he's said "I don't like how I feel" the day following intimacy. Why is that? What goes through MLCer? If H is 17 to 20 in his trauma (clearly driving to pick me up), I would think that intimacy would make him feel good the next day. Can you help break this down for me?
One cannot form a sincere connection, especially an intimate one, with someone else when they do not have connection to themself.
You are correct, intimacy would make him feel good the next day. Therefore, H is not intimately connected to his deep self.
H is lost! He is floating along, doing whatever he feels might alleviate his depression, pain, numbness, in that moment. Nothing he currently does, provides long lasting reprieve.
MLCers are desperate to find something to give their lives meaning. Yet they toss aside the very tenets that did/do just that. A loving family doesn’t just grow on trees, or is found on any street corner. It’s such a cruel twist, the very thing they run from they will come to desperately seek. (Family, friends, hard work, responsibility, and so on.)
When H says, “I don’t know how I feel” he is being honest.
Basically, for the MLCer, it’s sex. Not intimacy. Yes, there is likely old H somewhere in that hot mess of emotions, so not totally 100%. Maybe 90/10? 95/5? 98/2? Well, whatever percentage, mostly sex.
Some caution and advice. Most importantly, use protection. You don’t need to contract some STD. Yes, I know you don’t think, feel, believe H is having an affair. (H will lie about it BTW) You might be right. And I hope you are. However, it is staggering how common affairs are. In fact, I cannot think of a single situation where there wasn’t an affair. Some are announced, yet most are eventually discovered. (Not being mean here girl. You deserve and need to know the truth. Your health and well-being is vital.)
If you partake in activities with H, have no expectations that he is attaching some deep meaning to the encounter. Just enjoy it for what it is. If that is what you wish you do. Lots of folks cannot do this and being close keeps them emotionally messed up. Detachment is the single best thing you can do for your mental/emotional health.
Cake eating. I don’t recommend letting them have their cake and eat it too. If there is sex with someone else, no sex with you. Period.
Originally Posted by MamaG
As for the EA and PA response you provided, I am so lost. Maybe I'm in denial but I haven't looked to understand affairs too deeply bc I haven't seen any evidence of an affair. What do you mean that an "EA is a fantasy"? Go ahead and laugh at me....Do you mean H is talking with himself? Talking with an online gal like onlyfans?
I won’t laugh at you. Honest. This stuff is difficult, especially when we first get tossed into it. Let’s flesh it out some.
An affair: a sexual relationship between two people, one or both of whom are married to or in a long-term relationship with someone else.
A sexual relationship. Sexual makes it not just friends. Therefore an affair.
There are two types of affairs. Emotional affair and physical affair. Let’s start with the more straightforward of the two, the physical affair. As the name states it’s physical. Real, in-person, activities. The emotional affair is a sexual relationship that hasn’t cross in to the face to face world. No physical sex/contact. What about kissing? That’s contact, and if it’s sexual in nature, well things are likely going to progress quickly. So no point getting bogged down splitting hairs here.
The EA is therefore sans contact. Texts, emails, phone calls, pictures, etc. The “affair release” is fantasy because they do not meet or contact each other. The picture someone has of such a “lover” in their mind is a fantasy. A fantasy does no wrong. Is always willing and right there. It’s a falsehood, a fabrication of the mind. And therefore devilishly hard to fight or compete against.
Oddly, the fantasy EA when taken into the real world and becomes a PA has a higher chance of extinguishing. Fantasies don’t get sick, or hung over, or fight, etc. And moving in really brings up the problems in an illicit relationship. Cleaning vomit, doing dishes, laundry, etc, all very much too real.
Also, said EA relationship could be one-way. Only one person is involved, or even knows about it. Very stalker-like.
Originally Posted by MamaG
“I think most crisis have an undertone, or direct trauma that is sexual in nature." I don't know what you mean by this comment? Could H have been sexually abused? Sexually denied by a prior relationship?
Yes, that is the kind of thing I was referring to.
Especially, an immature child. Imagine how messed up one would become. The youngest has basically no skills or reference or understanding of what/why things are happening to them. And being young, they are highly egocentric, the world revolves around them.
So, they internalize what is happening. They blame themselves. They come to feel they deserve it. It’s how they cope. It’s a horrible poor mechanism, yet it’s all their immature minds have at that time. And to survive, they bury the events, the pain, the trauma.
Things buried alive, will come back to haunt.
I don’t know H’s past, just causes, patterns, and similarities pieced together over the years and over the stories. Something major planted those long ago seeds.
That being said, perhaps H is struggling with a hard life transition, more than a full blown crisis. (And I really do hope and pray that is so.) Time will tell. Regardless, your path is the same.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Hi again Mama I thought I would add a bit more after reading DnJ post. Can I just say DnJ is an absolute guru and lifesaver and along with a few other regulars on here they were my absolute lifeline one year ago. You’re doing great. You’re like me you want to read and know and understand everything. We want to try and fix them. We can’t it takes a while to realise that. My H is also 49.My H did the exact same thing with affection and touches and hugs and then would say in the next moment “ nothings changed I don’t love you anymore”. It’s the cycling. It’s the roller coaster. It’s the monster that has taken then over and for 10 % of the time the man peeks out and you see the man you recognised. It’s horrible but don’t get too caught up in it. They are in absolute turmoil. I read a lot off old forums on here back in the day. A poster called HappyAgain experienced a MlC of his own and I remember reading about how his feelings for his spouse were locked away buried beneath the fog. They can’t access them. They are there somewhere and we get glimmers when the real man comes out and hugs us, but they are quickly shut down by their internal system( or that snotty green alien that is sitting behind the controls at their brain). Somehwere else I read an amazing story of a woman who wrote about all of her mlc. How she felt like she was in a block of ice and it took a lot of time for the ice to crack and those buried emotions to come back to surface. They were always there just frozen in that time. It was very fascinating reading this stuff. I can’t remember where but I did so much reading.
I’ve always wondered about H upbringing and what happened. His family too aren’t overly close more polite conversations they have not gotten invoked at all (other than his older sister who I believe had her own mlc and a very mixed up life and is leading H further down the tunnel with ridiculous advice ). Just leave the family be. You can’t force family. Let them worry about him and intervene if they choose to do so. My H would be feeling so alone. He always used to dread having to speak to his family when we were together it was like a chore and he could never be bothered because. It was always boring polite conversation. Now he doesn’t have me to come home to or rattle on about work it must be a very lonely and miserable existence. Humans are designed for company. Not to be alone. It makes you realise just how messed up the whole withdrawal is that they remove themselves from the people that love them the most unconditionally in this world. They are in huge pain. Pain we would never know about.
I have to say about the affair DNJ has never been wrong. When I came to the boards I was saying the same thing there was nobody else H had said so and he certainly didn’t look like someone who had another person. It took 11 months post BD for me to stumble on something where he was sending snaps of himself to someone. At the time he said they were just friends and he is speaking to other women because we are over. Remember I said he was nasty to me when he was drinking. He went hell for leather blaming me constantly for the breakdown of our marriage and blaming me for every wrongdoing I did in our relationship. He made me feel so guilty and bad and I hated myself so much. Everyone kept telling me it’s not about me and not about what I had done in the past none of it. Sure enough this surfaced. And then just before he flew out he told me he actually had physical affair before Bd. The puzzle pieces all fell into place. The projected blame was his own guilt. He kept saying “ you’re going ro hate me you will never forgive me “. I never ever thought he would have come clean. He would have likely carried all of that with him nd it would have destroyed him. I found him telling me a huge step. He can’t see it but I hope it helps him heal and learn to work though his issues. Although only time will tell. He never would have come clean. I am not sure what happened that day that he felt he needed to tell me. As for DnJ sexual abuse stuff I have always wondered something like that. My H always said he had big blanks in his memory of childhood. I always found that strange. He also said he just had a bad memory.many years ago before all of this we were talking about that and he made a comment about “ I always wondered if something happened to me as a kid which is why I can’t remember anything. Maybe even sexual abuse”. At the time I didn’t think too much about it but when this all unfolded it played a lot on my mind. Was that something his subconscious locked away and it’s all now coming out.who knows what happened behind closed doors with creepy uncles. Anyway again it’s not our place to know unless they unlock the door and let us in.But yes I too have a 49 yrs too MLC who it seems wants to look like he did in his 20s and re life his teenage years. Mine seems to be sitting somehwere around university years in his early 20s. Drinking, video games, moving out of home ( only difference being is his parents basically told him to move out and I didn’t) and chasing hollow dreams of living abroad. We used to always say we both wanted to work and live abroad for a year together and should have before kids. But we’re always going to do it once the kids were older and moved on in their adult life. H is just acting out his old dreams. We are just his colaterla damage.
At the end of the day I love what I have and I am so grateful every day for the little things. For being in my home raising my teenage kids and spending every second in their life. I have everything. Family, friends, laughter, joy. I miss my H, I miss his company I miss my best friend and intimacy but he is not capable of any of that right now. All I know Is I would never want to trade places with him and he in his shoes right now. His world certainly isn’t better than mine.
Keep going Mama. Live every moment of every day. Get out in the sun, get one good motivational self help books and walk and listen. Find a hobby, dress up go window shopping have a bath. Do all of the stuff that is for you and your healing. Take the focus off H and what he is doing and stop analysing his every move it will drive you bonkers trying to guess where he is. You never can.
M:41 H:48 T:20. M:16.5 BD: 15/12/22 -moved out 17/3/2023
What a story! What a life! It really is hard and hard to believe. I am so sorry about the length of monstering you endured. I feel lucky that my situation experienced less of it. H's first BD in Feb 2023 was followe by several GREAT months where we talked and vacationed and loved each other deeper and NO weed. That is, until he celebrated 4/20. At the time, I saw addiction as the issue but with each passing month from June to BD#2 in Sept 2023, there was definitely visible sadness that moved to anxiety, arguments, distancing, late nights with the guys, etc. BD#2 introduced the monster and request for space - confusion for me. It was a quick shift and a self-proclaimed wall around his heart that he wasn't going to let me break down. H had enough of my controlling and wanted a D. From Nov on, monstering was minimal and I was his PA until he moved out in Dec. H tried to place calls/texts and even share dinners (H would come over) in Jan, Feb, Mar but I could see it wasn't easy for him. H really tried though and I showed compassion and gratitude for his efforts. Then I learned about MLC but have continued to stay connected with H. H doesn't monster. The most visible thing is the running after so many hours together and ghosting me in between visits. After reading through DnJ's explanation of EA and PA today, I know he is having an EA (didn't understand until today). H admitted to EA in Feb and I told him at one point that he should feel strange after EA and not after me. This made him uncomfortable and such moments have dwindled. H was/is not totally comfortable but I thought I could keep affairs out of the pic this way. Not sure whether to continue or to start some snooping to confirm PA or no PA. Maybe I'll get the internal strength to snoop a bit....as I certainly don't need any shared diseases.
I'm still hoping this is a horrible transition - wish I could confirm this. Knowing that your H behaved last year like mine is this year makes me think he could start monstering again and it really is MLC.
Thank you for sharing your story, knowledge, experiences, recommendations. I don't like that you're in this predicament but hearing others stories really does help confirm this craziness exists and somehow we're the LBSes having to decide to stand or walk. I am tempted to walk, but am then reminded about how much I love and can't give up on H.
Hugs to you and many thanks. If you think of anything more to share, I'm all ears.
I honestly don't know much about his whereabouts because I would not handle snooping well. Simple stuff would have me spinning and I needed to be talked off my ledge. For instance, I learned he bought firewood for the wood burning fireplace so he spent less on oil heat. I'd be upset because we have firewood that he could come get instead of dropping top dollar at a grocery store and then complain that he doesn't have money to eat. Easier to not know. Another example is knowing that he was stopping at a package store more frequently than his norm. That's how I learned he started drinking and I would get nervous as to where it would lead. H tends to confess tho - H openly told me that he has a drink every night. I reacted with surprise and said, "I'm not concerned that you don't have it under control but it's odd that you're drinking daily now even if its one drink." H would confirm, it's only one after work and...he stopped to think...I didn't have one two nights ago. I quickly responded with "Ya know you had to think about if you went a night without a drink." and then I followed my comment up with, "I know without any thought that from say....Jan 15 2005 to Feb 15 2005, you had zero drinks because you didn't drink unless we had a social event." H affirmed my thought and went off into his la-la land. Don't know what happened in that brain after that.
DnJ's comment about potential sexual abuse in his childhood has me thinking and I plan to ask him straight out at some point when the time is right. H has a good memory about his childhood - doens't seem to be gapped in years or moments. But, I've not narrowed it out. I know with certainty that his uncle 10 years his senior was abused by a family member's neighbor. Can't help but wonder if H was too and perhaps covered up by family. Unless someone guides me otherwise, I will ask H if he was abused.
I strongly believe in “ believe nothing they say and only half of what they do.” They become masters at lying. It’s the mask they wear. And because we know the real H and have so much trust in them we believe their words. Just be prepared there may be more to the story than you know. There always is. The truth does come out eventually I would also suggest you don’t snoop. If you are meant to know something it will unravel and come to light in some way. I didn’t go snooping at all it fell in my lap. My only other advice is to take the focus completely off him. Focus on you. Forget what he is doing in the world. What he says, where he goes, whether he has dinner or not. Don’t instigate any talks that are heavy let him open up when he’s ready. Just really leave him be. I wished I left my H alone more. I certainly wouldn’t be letting him cake eat too. He seems to be all confused and up and down so common and so similar. Sometimes they don’t have to say a thing and you can just sense and feel the anger. It’s not a matter of deciding to stand or walk right now. You will know in your heart if you want to walk. Right now focus on complete detachment. Drop that rope completely. You can still be the lighthouse and still stand for your marriage that way and still live. It never felt right for me to walk away find another partner etc etc. I still feel H may have it in him to get himself through the tunnel. I’ve done a pretty good job of detaching and just being the lighthouse. How I’ll feel when the ship returns from the crazy MLc I don’t know. What I do know is my life isn’t on hold for while he’s wallowing in his mess his depression his withdrawal, I’m kicking ass at being the best mother there is, building amazing memories and fun times with my kids, friends, family. That’s what it’s about. Drop the rope and live your life. Let’s see if H comes back in your orbit in the future
M:41 H:48 T:20. M:16.5 BD: 15/12/22 -moved out 17/3/2023
Patt is spot on with her advice. Do take the focus off H, and focus on you. Drop that rope or be dragged. Letting go and standing can, and do, happen together. Embrace the gift of time.
Originally Posted by MamaG
I know he is having an EA (didn't understand until today). H admitted to EA in Feb and I told him at one point that he should feel strange after EA and not after me. This made him uncomfortable and such moments have dwindled. H was/is not totally comfortable but I thought I could keep affairs out of the pic this way. Not sure whether to continue or to start some snooping to confirm PA or no PA. Maybe I'll get the internal strength to snoop a bit....as I certainly don't need any shared diseases.
Originally Posted by MamaG
I honestly don't know much about his whereabouts because I would not handle snooping well. Simple stuff would have me spinning and I needed to be talked off my ledge.
Ok. So, H is smitten with someone. Perhaps it remained not physical, perhaps not. I’d not go snooping as it will send you spinning. Besides, how would you truly know.
Affairs are illicit and most do not like the light. Confronting a spouse, demanding to see their phone and such measures of their whereabouts are easily manipulated by these masters of manipulation and lies. They simply get a second phone and take their affair deeper underground.
You only control you. You don’t want to risk sharing a disease. One sure way, no cake eating.
Breaking of trust is a difficult thing to rebuild. H needs to consistently demonstrate positive behaviours. Is he anywhere near that?
If H is in a EA. Chances are it will become a PA. Let it go. Focus on you.
Affairs are a symptom, a mere band-aid. And, unfortunately, they need to run their course. H is broken and chose, was driven to, having a relationship outside of the marriage. Until he feels consequences of his actions, some rock-bottom painful consequences which are not of your doing, he will not change. It is very rare for one to alter their life. Most take the comfortable easy path, until pain forces them to shift headings.
H needs to feel his consequences. Give him to God. While you live your life. You can certainly pray for him, speak with him, and such. However, he has/is fired/firing you as wife, let him feel that. Focus on you, and not be an emotional support for him.
Time and space. Right?
With such, hopefully H someday realizes that “hey, MG hasn’t spoken to me or been around for a while and my life is still all confused and mixed up. I’m still unhappy.” Then with some good fortune, “hmmm, perhaps she’s not the cause. Perhaps, it’s me.” And if he is strong enough, he’ll hopefully start to look inward and start dealing with his demons.
Originally Posted by MamaG
DnJ's comment about potential sexual abuse in his childhood has me thinking and I plan to ask him straight out at some point when the time is right. H has a good memory about his childhood - doesn’t seem to be gapped in years or moments. But, I've not narrowed it out. I know with certainty that his uncle 10 years his senior was abused by a family member's neighbor. Can't help but wonder if H was too and perhaps covered up by family. Unless someone guides me otherwise, I will ask H if he was abused.
I’d not do that.
Oh my, so much pressure!
H is likely to explode and since he likely cannot/will not accept the roots of his trauma, he will lash out at you.
Realize whatever long ago trauma(s) there are/were, H buried them for self preservation. He had to! And he has to uncover said trauma(s) in his time and on his timeline; which is so very slow. You cannot speed it up. Anything you do will likely delay his progress or worse derail it.
You know there was previous abuse in the family and they covered it up. The family’s actions and behaviours is very likely the root of H’s trauma. He was directly abused or was exposed/heard about stuff and had no one to speak with or report it to.
The most horrible thing one can do to another person, is betrayal. A betrayal of trust, betrayal of faith, runs deep. And those wounds exist for life. They really do. Even for us LBS.
Healing is possible. It takes digging deep into ourselves, doing that inner work, and forgiveness. The wounds can heal. Personally, I love the idea of kintsugi; putting pieces back together with gold. Our scars, golden, an expression of hard-earned strength and beauty.
Some folks do not do their hard work and suffer festering wounds for their entire life. That’s anybody: MLCer, LBS, kids, family, friends, or otherwise.
At this time, H is not ready. His wounds are barely realized (if at all) and far too raw. Remember, you didn’t break him, therefore you cannot fix him.
However, your wounds, you can definitely work on and heal.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
DnJ Appreciate you weighing in about not asking H. I certainly don’t want to pressure him nor rush him. As I’ve said, sometimes I struggle with translating advice given here into real life scenarios. TY
I wanted to clarify an important detail related to your comment: “ You know there was previous abuse in the family and they covered it up. The family’s actions and behaviours is very likely the root of H’s trauma. He was directly abused or was exposed/heard about stuff and had no one to speak with or report it to.”. I am aware of the family members abuse, but H is not. While it’s possible some family is also aware in pockets and hid it, I doubt it based on the details and how I learned. I was confided in and he has no idea that this abuse happened. And since I last wrote, I learned, that H was not born yet when the abuse happened by this non-family member. It’s unlikely from my view that this was the source of trauma for my H.
at some point, I will exhaust myself and will no longer try to seek and understanding. Dropping the rope is becoming easier. As I reflect over the last month, I can feel myself getting exhausted and wondering what I’ve gained over the last six months by trying to understand. Sometimes it feels like I’m giving up and perhaps that’s why I keep holding on and trying. But, as you said, I could be a lighthouse and stand for my marriage. I’ll just have to figure out how to do that.
I’m going to give some more thought to both your response and patties. Feeling a bit defeated and exhausted.
I will exhaust myself and will no longer try to seek and understanding...I can feel myself getting exhausted and wondering what I’ve gained over the last six months by trying to understand.
What worked for me was gaining an understanding of human nature in general, not the specifics of my X wife...
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Mama I’m sorry you geek so exhausted and drained. I remember that time. My biggest advice around this is you’re exhausted because you’re putting all your energy into H and trying to fix him or figure him out or put the puzzle pieces together. When you give so much energy to the situation you start to drain yourself and lose yourself in the chaos. H is at a time in his life where all his pieces have broken apart and now he is trying to piece himself back together and there is nothing anyone can do to help him. Step back step right back. You don’t need to give definition to what standing or being the lighthouse looks for you. Let it just happen. You will know what feels right. For me, dropping the rope and turning the focus on me and the kids( because it’s just the 3 of us now while H roams the other side of the globe). We have a happy safe home full of laughter and fun and joy. I never realised how much H bad energy all of last year drained us all. My version of being the lighthouse is he knows where we are when he needs us or if he chooses to one day get himself through the tunnel and return to us. If it’s meant to be it will happen. If he’s meant to stay stuck in crazy MlC land that’s his journey not mine
M:41 H:48 T:20. M:16.5 BD: 15/12/22 -moved out 17/3/2023
I'm caught - Do more of what works....seems to be including him in events and doctor appts, but I'm so anxious to have him hit rock bottom. Not sure how to marry these up. He is a true friend and companion when we're together, especially doctor appts. I have no expectations that I'll get a text for Mother's Day tomorrow (although it would be nice) despite not having heard from him since 5/4. Why 5/4? Well, I've learned that H only reaches out for a doctor appt. and there wasn't any last week. Other than doc appts, the last time he reached out to me out of the blue was at 10:30 pm on Easter Sunday - wanted to know how my day. Of course my response (the next morning) used the 'as if' approach. I told him that it was a great day full of laughs. Told him I missed him and then asked how his was. H said Easter was good but H's night wasn't good. Whether I get a text tomorrow or not, I'm thinking ahead to my surgery on 5/24. Do I remind him of the surgery and ask him to take me to the appt, under the "do what works" approach? Or, do I leave him as he fired me as a wife and not remind him of surgery? I know eventually H will know that I had surgery and wonder why I didn't include him as with other appts.
I understand feeling caught and anxious. Being unsure of which way to go and/or what you should do.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Do more of what works....seems to be including him in events and doctor appts, but I'm so anxious to have him hit rock bottom. Not sure how to marry these up.
You do have to marry these together. It’s not your journey, nor your responsibility. It’s up to H to decide when he has hit rock bottom. You cannot speed that up. You cannot force it.
Doing more of works can be a difficult thing to suss out. A solutions journal can help. Although, for a lot of things in a crisis the person’s progress is mostly internal and hidden from the world. It appears like nothing is happening. So, looking from the external, one cannot tell if something is happening or not. It’s quite madding. Best to let go of that rope.
Originally Posted by MamaG
He is a true friend and companion when we're together, especially doctor appts.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Well, I've learned that H only reaches out for a doctor appt.
I want you to consider that statements. Is he really? A true friend. Though thick and thin. Really?
Or is he convenient? Sort of. Helps with the doctor appointments, then ghosts.
What do you think about this: My friends don’t treat me that way.
Do you know how you want your friends to treat you? How you deserved to be treated? Respected?
People will treat you as you allow them to.
Originally Posted by MamaG
[I] used the 'as if' approach. I told him that it was a great day full of laughs. Told him I missed him and then asked how his was.
Act as if. Another useful tool for us. Act as if, installs and reinforces feelings and thoughts, which then become behaviour, our normal.
I’d alter your response for the next times.
Quote
I told him that it was a great day full of laughs. Told him I missed him and then asked how his was.
Yes, tell him you had a great day. That’s it. No telling him (or yourself btw) that you miss him. No asking him about his day. Just that you had a great day. Leave him wondering.
You definitely do not want to feed into his ego and his narrative that MamaG misses him and is sitting there waiting on a shelf for him. And don’t do that either! GAL. Act as if, until it becomes your normal.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Do I remind him of the surgery and ask him to take me to the appt, under the "do what works" approach? Or, do I leave him as he fired me as a wife and not remind him of surgery? I know eventually H will know that I had surgery and wonder why I didn't include him as with other appts.
When living in the past, one is depressed. When living in the future, one is anxious. When living in the present, one is calm and at peace.
You are anxious. Living for the what ifs. Trying to do things to positively affect the future.
Focus on the here and now. Live for today. And, doing things to positively affect your present will positively affect your future. It’s about how you focus and place your efforts.
To that end, can you see your fretting about what to do? So what if/when H finds out you went to surgery and didn’t include him. No big deal! Look, he is the dude who moved out and decided that you and he should live apart. Figures he’ll call and converse when it suits him. Bah, you deserve better than that. So, demand it. Through your actions.
H need to feel the loss, before he might change directions. Before he will decide he hit rock bottom. And lots of folks can/will hover just inches above rock bottom, for a long long time. Rock bottom hurts, and people will do just about anything to avoid pain and consequences.
Again, you do not speed up his journey. However, you doing, living, focusing on you and your life has positive benefits towards that end. That’s DB in a nutshell. There is no guarantee it will save your marriage, however it will save you. And in that, gives you your best chance at saving your marriage.
So, if you need help for the doctor appointment, find someone more reliable.
If you want to inform H, maybe: “H, my surgery is coming up on 5/24. I’ll let you know how it goes”. Although, I’d likely inform him after the fact, like on the 25th, if at all.
Don’t play his game. Live and love your life. Your present day.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Thanks for the mother's day wishes - my kids are amazing; family is priceless! Hope everyone enjoyed the weekend.
I did receive a Happy Mother's Day text yesterday morning which I really wanted - 10 hours later, I responded with "TY". Simple but kind. I don't know how H got through yesterday as H's mom has passed and he didn't spend any time with my mom. Admittedly, I care how he faired through the day, but am not going to reach out to ask. My heart broke him all day....and I know (without knowing) that he felt my loss.
Very eye opening to hear your response: Is he really? A true friend. Though thick and thin. Really?
I have let myself believe that he's wonderful as I focus on the 10% of the life he comes around. Wow! TY for stating the obvious that clearly wasn't so obvious. While it made me cry, it also opened my eyes. You're right. H [censored] right now and I've allowed him to come and go as he pleases. Need to give this a lot of thought and thing about how I can demand respect. This stuff is so tough and not intuitive. I am really struggling.
I've heard, "lots of folks can/will hover just inches above rock bottom, for a long long time." but didn't really understand. But, if I apply it to current state, it's very possible that I've actually allowed him to hover by answering to his check-ins and weekly appts/visits. If this is what we mean by that concept, I need to make some adjustments. What other examples would highlight this concept?
Even if I pull appts away, there's still the house he's abandoned and needs carrying for. H is very handy and took care of many tasks and things that broke/stopped working. Things need attention at the house and haven't been tended to - it's been 8 months. Do I just start writing checks for things to be serviced instead of calling him over? To date, I've just asked him to care for this or that on days he took me to appts - no specific calls/texts for house repairs. Assuming, that chapter is over and I don't use him for appts, what do I do about house repairs, etc.? After all, this is still his house too.
Soooo, as I pull away, I see (as you've pointed out several times) that he is doing a bit of chasing. Texted 5/4 bc of carpooling to S bday dinner. Radio silence for both of us until his Mother's day wishes on 5/12. I didn't entertain him and merely provided the "TY" response. Heard from a friend that H had a rough weekend and I secretively celebrated with mixed emotions - need him to find rock bottom and miss me while being heartbroken and crying. So as I reach for my phone this morning, there's another text from H that wishes me luck with a medical exam today and to let him know how it turns out. I break down in tears of relief, anger, excitement and confusion.
What do you see from your view? What's going on with H? I sense a little chasing and loneliness which tells me my efforts may be rendering some results. Not popping the champagne yet! Do I respond? If so, what do I say? When do I respond?
Here are some questions that may come my way and I want to be sure I answer them in a way that is appropriate based on where we are. I hope you know enough about my situation that you can weigh in. I think he's doing some touch-n-goes. And, I'm trying to DB and remember that he is barely being a friend and definitely not a spouse (like I want him to be). I'm trying to demand respect. Or at least that is what I tell myself.
How do you propose I answer: 1. How did the medical exam go? 2. Did you get results yet from the exam? (assuming I don't provide the detail he expects at any pt) 3. What time would you like me to pick you up tomorrow for surgery? (I do have someone who can take me). 4. What do you mean you don't need me to take you? I took the day off? 5. How are you feeling? Do you need anything? (post surgery) 6. Is something wrong? You've changed (I know he's noticed that I'm not so eager to engage).
I understand the house still requires upkeep, maintenance, and sometimes repairs. And that H and you still jointly own it. I’d suggest for the maintenance/repairs you can do, do them. You look after it. And don’t be fearful of expanding your knowledge and horizons of what home services you can do.
My Mom of 77 lives alone with Dad in a care home. She looks after furnace filter, water filter, softener salt, the house keeping and cleaning, and such. I do look after mowing the grass, and we hired a guy to remove snow in the winter. I used to look after the snow too, and with looking after my own large homestead found I couldn’t ensure her drive got cleaned for when she needed it.
I foresee nothing baring you from doing the scheduled maintenance items along with the painting, replacing broken trim or eave down pipes, and such that comes up. And you may already be doing some, all, or even more of those things.
For larger jobs, those that would require further expertise and/or tools/equipment, yes outsource it. That could be H or a contractor. You should let H know of those larger jobs anyhow. He may step up and do it. However, he also should pay his share if it is contracted out.
Letting go, detachment, takes your power back. Your emotions aren’t uncontrollably dragged around by H’s words and/or behaviour. You can be/are still kind and cordial. And thank H for doing a good job or when he is praiseworthy. However, the LBS first needs to get their feet under themselves on solid ground, and find their balance. A lighthouse has a very strong foundation.
Originally Posted by MamaG
What do you see from your view? What's going on with H?
I see a gal who is growing, getting stronger, and finding her way. Be a lighthouse. A lighthouse doesn’t run around looking for a ship to save. It stands and shines. The ship either sees it or doesn’t.
I see H is lost. He poked his head out a bit, did a temp check, and is still baking. Still running.
H is a boomerang. Seems like a clingy boomerang type of MLCer, IMHO. He flings away for a while, and then returns. And repeats.
You need to focus on your life, especially during those absent time. Not just because it’s best for you; because H will be watching too. It’s funny how much they spy and watch their old life from afar.
When H does his cyclic returns, realize he is like a child, looking for praise and/or a kind word. (The clinginess. Wants to runaway, but not too far.) He also needs boundaries when required. H is reliving his younger years, growing up, and will test his boundaries. Keep your expectations to zero, bite your tongue (lots ), drink those STFU smoothies, keeping to whatever business is at hand and not getting dragged into his world or whatever he is/has done. It really tests your foundations, your lighthouse-ness. Be kind and cordial, and firm.
H needs to grow up. Needs to hit that rock bottom.
Originally Posted by MamaG
I sense a little chasing and loneliness which tells me my efforts may be rendering some results.
Could be.
Take away his safety net. He needs to feel his consequences of his actions. You don’t do this out of malice or anger or hatred or retribution or punishment. It’s more a byproduct of focusing on you and letting go. Giving H what he asked for. Time and space, to sort himself out.
Originally Posted by MamaG
I break down in tears of relief, anger, excitement and confusion.
Yep.
Expectations.
It’s a difficult razors edge to find. The balance between hope and expectations. To hope that H would text, or show some care towards your appointment. And yet to not hold on too tightly to such, that it becomes a need or expectation. Neither an expectation for him to or not to.
Hope is timeless. Has no deadline or timeline attached to it.
The balance is within you. That razors edge is defined by you. After you find it, realize it, start walking it, you’ll discover the balance is not razor thin. In fact, it’s quite wide and easily traversed. However, you got to get there first. And that takes some slogging. First step is detachment, then finding indifference. All while maintaining compassion.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Do I respond? If so, what do I say? When do I respond?
Keep it simple and straightforward. Especially for a person in crisis. Their attention span is that of a gnat and their emotions are cranked to eleven, so anything else is far too much pressure and sends them in the opposite direction. Less is more. And of course, the whole No R-Talks.
Originally Posted by MamaG
text from H that wishes me luck with a medical exam today and to let him know how it turns out.
Tomorrow, respond: “The exam went fine. Thank you for asking.”
Utilize a 24-48 hour rule for responding to H. This gives your emotions time to settle and ensures you formulate a response based upon logic and reason rather than your emotional state.
Some LBS have so much poking from their spouse they go to a once a week schedule of returning/responding to the various emails, texts, and voice mails. You are not to that extreme, kind of the opposite actually. So it can seem harder to realize “why” to delay response, and to only respond to questions that require a response.
Best of luck today.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I see you posted while I was typing. So a bit more follow up.
Originally Posted by MamaG
How do you propose I answer: 1. How did the medical exam go? 2. Did you get results yet from the exam? (assuming I don't provide the detail he expects at any pt) 3. What time would you like me to pick you up tomorrow for surgery? (I do have someone who can take me). 4. What do you mean you don't need me to take you? I took the day off? 5. How are you feeling? Do you need anything? (post surgery) 6. Is something wrong? You've changed (I know he's noticed that I'm not so eager to engage).
Use the 24-48 hour rule.
Look at all the questions and negativity from H you are expecting. Dial that to zero. Let go. Deal with things as they come up. If they come up. Not before!
When one thinks, feels, believes their partner is going to angry or upset, they actually behave in a manner that reinforces the very behaviour they are expecting/trying to avoid. In a way, we craft the very thing we don’t want to happen by worrying and trying to work against it.
Most stuff we worry and fret over, never comes to pass. Folks expend so much energies and stress so much over things that simply don’t happen. Yet, the self damage and exhaustion does. Imagine how much energy you can invest into the 1% of things that actually do require your efforts when you let go of the other 99%.
Do a big 180! For you! Let go. Don’t worry what H might feel about your appointment. It’s your appointment!
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
DnJ, thank you for faithfully responding to me. I need help and find your input soothing/comforting to read through. Do you think my thread belongs wtih the MLC threads? Would I get more responses in the MLC space?
Just so you know MamaG a lot of us here will read your thread, we try our best to relate to you or give you advice to help you as much as possible. Personally id like to give advice but your situation is slightl different than mine or many of us, so we try not to give advice that might harm the process for you. That being said from many of the threads here i think yours seems like one of the more optimistic ones, you have to tread very carefuly in what you say and do, but in some of your posts your H does show signs of genuine care for you, but i think is going through a lot of inner turmoil. Ill be honest when i turned 40 and all of this happened, i was personally having a very difficult time coping with all the thoughts, coupled with the realization that 8 years of not being able to have a family and dealing with pandemic restrictions gave me somewhat of a mid life crisis and was very hard for me. Everyone is different and deals with life difficulties and tough milestones differently, some of us arent as mentally strong as others and everyone has a different upbringing My biggest tip for you is give him enough space, be kind and cordial, but dont make him feel like you need him, work on your physical health and well being and if you have to change your diet to be more healthy, its one of the best things you can do for your mind, body, and soul. Youll be surprised how much you can get into a steady routine and learn about health and fitness and youll feel good about yourself, and a side benefit is he will see a whole new you
One thing that helped me a lot was just going for random coffees or lunches with friends, find a friend or work colleague that has a flexible schedule and chat it up with them. Enjoy a nice patio and sunshine, spend more time outside. Smell random flowers, listen to the birds sing, enjoy gods gift of nature and know that hes looking down on you.
You may post wherever you feel most comfortable. Your situation is absolutely fine in the Newcomers section, and would be fine in the MLC section as well.
As to readership and responses, traditionally the Newcomers forum is a busier one and has more response. Although sometimes it does depend a bit on how many other folks are concurrently posting along side you. And how comfortable they are posting to your situation.
Your thread and situation is read a lot. As of right now, at just under a month, there is 44 posts with over 1500 viewings. Lots of folks are following along.
I know it takes a little while for new posters to get their feet under themselves. When you’re ready, reach out to other people’s threads. Most folks will reciprocate; dropping by and offer their views. Like in real life, breaking the ice is often the stumbling block.
D
(By the way, I’m going out to my best friend’s cabin for the weekend. We are putting on a new roof. So, I’ll be offline most of the weekend.)
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
