I've been silently following your sitch because I find it so inspirational. This is a painful time right now, but through the pain you just made a huge step. You're wife seems to believe that you have changed or believes you more than she did before. That is a huge step towards reconcilation. It was a painful experience to reach, but you will soon see the results.
Hey Frank- I have been reading alot of your posts, and I have to say that it has been helpful. I agree that NYS is attacking. It is one thing to have a difference of opinion, but those differences need to be addressed with respect especially here of all places.
Anyways, as to your W's strange behavior; since my D I have gone thru strange behavior's opposite to all of my past. It is part of trying to figure out who you are and who you want to be. Not all of those experiments bring us pride and happiness as hers obviously hasn't. At least her "escape" did not include the OM. That R may be starting to tarnish a bit for her, let's hope.
I have made the mistake of going out with my friends a couple of nights and trying to keep up with their drinking. As one who doesn't normally drink, that was a big mistake. On Halloween, I got so drunk it scared me to the point I started to think about alcohol poisoning and wonder if I should go to the hospital, but I just kept making myself throw up and my friends kept checking on me and we all knew I would be fine so no, I didn't go to the hospital. It is natural when your mind is clouded by a drug of any kind to get a little scared if it is not your usual experience. I too was humiliated by my situation and did not want to go home, couldn't imagine my son or BF seeing me in that condition. So I stayed the night at my friends' house. I can understand to an extent why your W may not have been very visibly emotional in the morning. There are so many emotions that she has never experienced before that it can be overwhelming. It was easier for you to recognize what you were experiencing and express it because you are going through so much personal growth. Unfortunately, she still is not at the same level and is lost. Give her some time, just be supportive and caring as you already are. These actions will speak volumes to her.
Simple. If he's drinking or drunk you DON'T deal with him.
If he's stone cold sober be aware that drinking is most likely at the forefront of his mind every moment. If he remains sober for the first few weks, understand that pretty much anything you hear him say -good or bad- is the addiction talking.
You would gain so much insight if you would attend an Al Anon meeting, or even AA, if you want a view from the "drunk's " perspective. One of the first things your H has to do is become willing to "deal with life on life's terms", something he has not done for as long as he has actively been drinking.
You need a support system. So does he. Good luck to you and God bless.
Simple. If he's drinking or drunk you DON'T deal with him.
If he's stone cold sober be aware that drinking is most likely at the forefront of his mind every moment. If he remains sober for the first few weks, understand that pretty much anything you hear him say -good or bad- is the addiction talking.
Does he have ANYONE he respects who doesn't abuse alcohol?
THe first few weeks you get realy angry at any little thing, I know I did. I didn't use AA or and 12 step programs as they never helped me, a Type A personality. We don't deal with powerlessness but with being in control of our lives. I haven't drank in 3 months and have no urge to (now). Anyway, it was FRIENDS that helped me when I needed to be distracted from drinking.
I have 3 friends who drink responsibly, if at all, and I called then a LOT.
Quote: hopefulmommy: I've been silently following your sitch because I find it so inspirational. This is a painful time right now, but through the pain you just made a huge step. You're wife seems to believe that you have changed or believes you more than she did before. That is a huge step towards reconcilation. It was a painful experience to reach, but you will soon see the results
Thanks for your supportive words. I hope she saw 'something'
Quote: cluelessj: I can understand to an extent why your W may not have been very visibly emotional in the morning. There are so many emotions that she has never experienced before that it can be overwhelming. It was easier for you to recognize what you were experiencing and express it because you are going through so much personal growth. Unfortunately, she still is not at the same level and is lost. Give her some time, just be supportive and caring as you already are. These actions will speak volumes to her
Hey, I think your explanation is great. I DO see things clearer than she does. I also see the opportunities to learn from this experience, and she doesn't just yet. Thank!
Quote: AmyC: You may be interested in my last post on my thread "WAW. Saved by grace through faith" over in Seperated, what now?
I read it, it was great! Thanks again Amy
Well, quiet day / nite tonite. W was very pleasant when we were around each other but as part of 'letting go' I was happy, smiling, polite .... and gone as soon as the conversation ended. I ended up going out this evening for an hour or so with D15 and when we returned W was in the bathroom, so I went to my room. She didn't come up to say goodnite or anything. So, I gotta remember where she's at: ILY with OM who is far away and they are making contact less for some reason. See's us as gone, or as she put it last week 'too late'. And she's working on getting a job so she can support herself. So I'm still on the outside of the relationship circle. No problem.
I was kinda hoping that a little bit of that wall she has might have dropped given the drug incident last nite and the fact that I totally dropped it today.
She saged her room while we were gone. That's a thing spiritual people do to purify the room and chase away bad spirits. I did recall her thinking that her getting messed up last nite was another 'attack' from someone who doesn't like her, i.e. OM's GF. That's one of her few crazy things she believes.
And it;s only been 3 months. OM needs another 3 months to show his hand to her and most friends of mine simply can not beleve he would move out west for her. That would be stupid.
My best friend has a wager going with me. $100 says OM doesn't move. $50 says that he hurts her / dumps her (but they can stay friends) by the end of February.
Personally, I don't think your wife is ever going to see OM again. You mentioned that they are in less contact right now than they were before, right? Why would the contact lessen if they supposedly have this upcoming Feb. visit planned? My guess is that OM has no intention of seeing your wife again. What she believes, however, is another story. Maybe in time she will figure out that her R. with him is not really a R. at all. Keep up the excellent DB'ing and keep going to counseling. I think you are doing all you can right now.
She saged her room while we were gone. That's a thing spiritual people do to purify the room and chase away bad spirits. I did recall her thinking that her getting messed up last nite was another 'attack' from someone who doesn't like her, i.e. OM's GF. That's one of her few crazy things she believes. So, then, she believes OM's gf put some kind of curse on her, and that is why she got sick? All right, craziness aside, then what she's saying is that OM's gf would have a reason to not like her. So, your wife must realize then that OM's gf is still in the picture somehow. Maybe she will start to get it. I believe what Sassy says: that OM and his gf are still together a lot more than he's admitting to your wife.
Most of us really marry only once. First love endures, even unto our dying day. And we never really divorce.
No it isn't how I interact with people who constructively disagree with my opinions. But, I let myself get angry by the sarcastic remarks
I'm sorry you took those as sarcastic, I thought I was making a point about the qualification of the particular statements I was responding to.
Here, on this forum, we advise each other, assess situations, in short, it's a support group. I don't know if you've ever been in a support group, but when you're in one, there will be times you will be told stuff about yourself or your circumstances that you don't like to hear, or may not wish to hear, and may vehemently disagree with. The advice/comments may be on the mark or not, but by participating in the group, you've accepted those conditions. It stops at verbal abuse and crossing lines, of course.
A support group does not mean cheerleading whatever.
Frank wrote: I interpreted them as hurtful to me.
Clueless wrote: I agree that NYS is attacking.
Tim wrote: NYS, it's not that we can't handle diverse opinions, it's how those opinions are presented that seems to be in question. I know on my, and Tim's threads you have done similar things today... on the whole it has been constructive (and you HAVE not always agreed with me or sugar coated your comments) and not judgmental or sarcastic.
So you see, it's not about how it's presented, but how it's interpreted.
Sorry about you taking them as hurtful, Frank. That's obviously something for you to work on. It's one part all in the way one "interprets" something, it's one part how that person then chooses to act, isn't it?
"No it isn't how I interact with people who constructively disagree with my opinions. But, I let myself get angry..." Well, point of fact is you did interact that way, and you did so because, as you wrote, you permitted yourself to get angry, because you interpreted the statements as "hurtful".
I was in a show last night, and backstage, one of the actors who was flubbing some of his lines was given a couple of suggestions by a much younger actor, who, although younger, had more experience. The older actor bristled and lashed out at him, indignant that he was being advised by a young pup. Actually, when you boil it down, you can understand that the older actor was feeling frustrated and embarrassed, and being advised by a teenager sparked a reaction borne out of the contained anger, in effect, the older actor was dumping his anger on the one guy he felt more powerful than. Of course, that wasn't the proper way for him to act, no pun intended.
Not saying that's you, I'm pointing out that the similarity lies in the older actor could've not interpreted the teen's giving him advise as something embarrassing, from his viewpoint of already feeling hurt, but could look at it constructively, and gain something worthwhile from it. The teenager wasn't telling him anything that wouldn't be good for him.
I should have been a better man and let it roll off me. But I didn't, I let it get under my skin. Big mistake. For that I am truly sorry.
Not a problem. Thanks for that.
I have been through a lot of complex emotional stuff in the past 24 hours
That's understandable. Sorry that you're going through such a rough time.
And no, I don't treat my Wife that way because she doesn't treat me that way.
Well, I'll take your word for that. Yet, "tit for tat" is not the best rule for dealing with people, is it?
You handled that situation just fine.
Here's the point I'm trying to make. Though everything about her condition worked out fine, there's still messages sent that she took as you not being there for her as she was for you. That's very clear and not to be dismissed, is what I'm telling you. People do keep account of injury, be it real or imagined or even if it works out fine. They remember how it felt. They remember the perceived slight OVER the positives.
And the next morning she comes to me to show remorse for putting ME through this.
What is going on?
Well, you're getting different takes on that. You'd have to see what else happens and how these pieces of the puzzle present themselves.
Frank, things are not always as they appear. And people do things according to whatever "payoff" is in it for them. Because we're complex creatures, we're not all on the same page. It's difficult therefore to know what exactly is going on in someone else, though with enough pieces of the puzzle, you can get a somewhat close approximation.
I just don't know how she could ever trust enough and love me enough to want to try again. I just keep thinking that the more she sees of this 'exposing' of the hurt, the more she will be convinced she is doing the right thing. And the 'in love' feelings she has for OM, whatever they may be, have got to get her thinking that even if... I guess I am a pessimist today.
You're making assumptions. And negative assumptions, because you're in a pessimistic mood. Think happy thoughts today.
Wow, I am sorry that I missed that. I hadn't realized OM had a GF. How does your W deal with that. She can rationalize that she is not "cheating" on you because she "is leaving" you. But how does she take any pride in being the OW in his life. Do they fight about it alot? Don't know how much you know about their sitch.
Anyways, I agree, I don't see him moving to be with her. I could see him coming out to get a piece of A**. Have known men like that. But still most likely not. It will cost money and GF will not like that. Chances are he will not want to ruin HIS own life just to see her.
Also the lack of contact might just be that caused by the lack of physical influence. Most A's are most intense when face-to-face. When apart, you have time to think about reality and what you are really willing to accept. Also lets face it phone calls can only be romantic and sexy for so long, then they get repetitive and the stimulation wears off.
I know right now, it she has checked out on your R, but if the shine is wearing off the OM, there is a chance. She will become very lonely and vulnerable. Since you have so much connecting you two, there is every chance in the world she will reconnect with you if you continue to show her that you are changed, and care about her safety and well-being.
In some past posts, you have questioned whether you want her back as a weak and vulnerable woman. Problem with is you chose her that way. Maybe you can look to hoping for her to reconnect even as pathetic as it may seem at first. Then as you have grown and become stronger again, maybe you can help her to grow with love also.
I know I am a sucker for happy endings, but then I think we all are or we wouldn't be here.
Quote: cluelessj: Wow, I am sorry that I missed that. I hadn't realized OM had a GF. How does your W deal with that.
GF went with him (or he with her) to the Hawaii retreat where all this started. He told W the trip was an attempt to work out their issues. When he and W went back to their respective homes, a week later W bombed me and a few days after that he said he broke it off with GF. They still live in the same house though, and the mystery is who actually pays for it or do they split it. W called him a 'kept man' in one of her e-mails. He has said that GF seems to be 'dating' but generally in e-mails up till 2 weeks ago (I stopped snooping after that, hurt too much) he said very little about her, but he could have been saying a lot during IM's or phone calls. Their phone calls were every day or so for 20-40 minutes but recent phone logs show the last time she called him was on Xmas for a short call. The next time was when he called her on Jan 7th for 50 minutes! Weird. No calls since the 7th but the logs only go through this past friday, where she called him but got voice mail.
Now I know that for some reason the week before xmas they had made a 'no call' rule that I saw mentioned in e-mail but I didn't see WHY. Maybe his cell bill was high. Maybe he was trying to get GF off his back since he said she was not giving him any privacy when she heard the phone ring. Maybe she pays the cell phone bill, Their numbers are sequential. But, she can't be there ALL the time and W could call HIM pretty much anywhere he was to go - for free. Even a pay phone. But she never was good at understanding how our cell billing works. I even modified the plan so that she didn't use up so much of our carryover minutes when she was calling him in the early evening and TOLD her that. Now THAT'S DB'ing
Last week I pulled the 'you IM all the time and that cause mood swings in you that the kids and I have to deal with' in counseling and she said they have been IM'ing less lately. I can believe that because she spends less time in her room with the computer on.
E-mail traffic is the same, 1-3 per day from him, plus her responses. Don't know the content, don't want to know. But as a reminder, his e-mails were usually cut and pasted poems and other 'lovey' stuff he gets off the web because of a MAIL LIST he belongs to. Doesn't have to work hard to do it. Sad.
2-3 weeks ago in E-mails she was calling him 'my love' and 'the man that I love' in her messages. They were full of questions from her about their 'relationship' when he moved out here, in general. He seemed pretty excited about the prospects of being 'out west' and sometimes said 'I love you' in e-mails.
Quote: Anyways, I agree, I don't see him moving to be with her. I could see him coming out to get a piece of A**. Have known men like that. But still most likely not. It will cost money and GF will not like that. Chances are he will not want to ruin HIS own life just to see her.
Yeah, my other friends, counselor, guy on the street,pretty much anybody I talk to says the same thing. I'm th eonly one who thinks HE is neurotic enough to actually do it.
How sad that we have to think of our wives as someone elses 'piece of a$$'. I think money is the issue with him, and the time and effort. When SHE went to see HIM on dec 1st she paid for the flight (well, I did) and she paid for the hotel they stayed in. All he had to do was take her sightseeing for 2 days. To come here would only be about $200 or so flight and what, $80 per nite hotel? I'd do it to see 'my soulmate'! But then again I am a real man and have real money.
The GF relationship is still a mystery to me. What he says in e-mail (2 weeks ago) seems to support that they are broken up but living together for financial reasons, much like W and I are. In my case W can't afford to leave, in his case I think HE can't afford to leave.
Quote: Also the lack of contact might just be that caused by the lack of physical influence. Most A's are most intense when face-to-face. When apart, you have time to think about reality and what you are really willing to accept. Also lets face it phone calls can only be romantic and sexy for so long, then they get repetitive and the stimulation wears off.
Hey, that's a good explanation. Some things I read say that EA's over long distance can last longer because the fantasy can be maintained longer. But I agree that the 'high' is much more when there is physical contact since sex is a bonding experience - especially to a woman.
Quote: I know right now, it she has checked out on your R, but if the shine is wearing off the OM, there is a chance. She will become very lonely and vulnerable. Since you have so much connecting you two, there is every chance in the world she will reconnect with you if you continue to show her that you are changed, and care about her safety and well-being.
I am hoping. My distancing hasn't produced any really noticable change in her other than she has become nicer when we DO talk. But it's only been 4 days since I have been 'letting go'. And I did tell her more than once that I am 'trying to move on with my life'.
Quote: In some past posts, you have questioned whether you want her back as a weak and vulnerable woman. Problem with is you chose her that way. Maybe you can look to hoping for her to reconnect even as pathetic as it may seem at first. Then as you have grown and become stronger again, maybe you can help her to grow with love also.
She wasn't obviously weak and was definatly not vulnerable when we met. She had been through some emotional trials in her life even at 21. The thing that I never clued in on all these years but seems so obvious now is that she never ASSERTED herself. Anything I wanted to do she would agree with even if she didn't like it. She might bring up something she didn't like, but the 'debates' were short because I would give a reason why my way was better and she would NOT defend her ideas. Counselor told me that this is THE NUMBER ONE problem we had. Her lack of ASSERTIVENESS. If she was assertive, she would have kicked MY A** when I first got into depression and drinking instead of letting me flounder till now. What should have been a 2-3 week problem became 5 years. In fact, the MOST assertive thing she has ever done is ask for a divorce, and it took meeting an OM to give her the 'strength' to do it.
Quote: I know I am a sucker for happy endings, but then I think we all are or we wouldn't be here.
Thanks. What scares me the most is her unpredictability. And the affair. She has hardened herself towards me so much it seems impossible it can ever heal. But I can hope!
I think the 'magic brownies' incident was a defining moment in our current interactions. We both got to see what it was like to be the other person, and with humility I told her how sorry I was that I hurt her so much now that I could see how it felt. She also understood how it felt to be afraid that I would give her crap the next day for being stupid and I told her that I wouldn't because 'I know how it feels'. She sees that what she did to me hurt me too.
Since that talk, the incident is behind us and not mentioned any more.
Thanks so much for your post, it was very positive and enlightening.
