Not long ago, during a sexual encounter, something seemed "off". So I asked her about it afterwards.
She admitted that she wasn't really into it. I asked why she went through with it anyway. She said it was her "wifely duty".
The words didn't sound good. But she was smiling. She went on to say that a wife is supposed to do it to show her husband how much she loves him, and she didn't mind doing it one bit because she really did want to show me how much she loved me. It was a duty she lovingly and happily accepted, not a duty that she considered an unwanted burden.
(Things weren't always anywhere near this good. More on that later.)
Now a lot of guys say that the most important part of sex is the feeling of being wanted and desired by their partner. And I can say that without that, the experience itself wasn't nearly as good. But knowing that she happily offered herself to me because she loved me made me feel really good and happy and loved. If she'd said "I had to put out so you'd stop bothering me" or even "I knew you wanted it so much and I didn't want to get you upset", I'd have ended up feeling about two inches tall (or maybe two inches long).
I asked her if that happened a lot. She said "sometimes". But most of the time, she really gets into it after we start. No worries. Why did I ever doubt that I married the right woman?
Now of course there are things I need to do for her to show my love for her. And I'm really beginning to understand how that works and how that doesn't work. If I do things for her with the thought that I want to show her how much I love her and make her happy, it works out well. If I do things with the attitude that I have to do it or she'll get upset or angry or "go on strike" or otherwise retaliate, she doesn't appreciate that at all. I used to get annoyed by that, but I can see that I wouldn't appreciate it either if she was implicitly accusing me of "making" her do things or of being prone to get upset or angry or mean if she didn't cater to me. She doesn't like being accused of imposing an unwanted or unfair burden on me, but she does like when I happily embrace a duty toward her because I love her. And that makes perfect sense.
A new attitude is even working for the age-old problem that an act of service wouldn't "count" if she had to ask me to do it. The reason for that is not because she wants to make things hard for me for her own evil amusement but because I had a bad attitude when she asked me to do something, even if I tried to hide it. She also said if I loved her, she wouldn't have to ask me, which I took to mean that she really insisted that I must remember things without any help at all from her (as if she was putting me on trial) but I now think she really meant that if I really loved her, I wouldn't make her ask me and then get a bad attitude when she did ask me.
I got a bad attitude because of my own issues. I was born with a nasty case of ADHD, and throughout childhood I was constantly forgetting to do things and failing to follow through and constantly getting screamed at for it. So being asked to so something that I should have remembered triggered the thought "damn I dropped the ball again idiot!" followed by "why won't this woman ever let me have any peace?" Anyway, I finally saw a doctor and started taking medication, which improved my functioning, and I eventually started to make peace with the fact that I couln't really have done any better and I got screamed at all the time because my mom didn't know what was wrong with me and didn't know what else to do, not because I was worthless. And I started remembering to do some things, and more importantly, when she had to ask me to do something, instead of feeling like a failure and then blaming her for that feeling, I say (or at least think) "thanks for reminding me". And it makes her a lot happier even when she has to ask me to do something.
Last edited by Crazy Eddie; 04/03/0703:50 PM.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
Not much to add other than WOW! I don't know where you and your wife started out but you are in a really good place right now. You both are appreciating each other.
A new attitude is even working for the age-old problem that an act of service wouldn't "count" if she had to ask me to do it. The reason for that is not because she wants to make things hard for me for her own evil amusement but because I had a bad attitude when she asked me to do something, even if I tried to hide it.
What a great point.
I eventually started to make peace with the fact that I couldn't really have done any better and I got screamed at all the time because my mom didn't know what was wrong with me and didn't know what else to do, not because I was worthless. And... more importantly, when my W had to ask me to do something, instead of feeling like a failure and then blaming her for that feeling, I say (or at least think) "thanks for reminding me".
I want to stress this because this seems like a huge step you made. If you do forget something now and someone points in out to you, your first thought now is "Thanks for reminding me" instead of "I forgot again; I am such an idiot."?
Did you figure that out and make that change on your own or did a therapist help?
My guess is your wife is happier also because when she reminded you of something and you when into your "I'm an idiot" mode, she felt BADLY because that was NOT her intention. Her intention is merely to get you to pick up the dry cleaning and not to make you feel like an idiot. Right?
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
For the first time in...well...maybe ever, I am considering printing out a post on SSM and giving it to my wife. You have combined two of what I consider to be major issues my W and I have: 1. Your wife's view of "wifely duty", which is, unfortunately, not shared by my W. But I've tried to articulate this view to her, albeit unsuccessfully (her current view is that if, and only if, both parties are "willing", then it's just 'sex' and she won't do it without "gritting her teeth.")Your wife's view of it is beautiful, and loving, and simple. 2. Your view of yourself is similar to mine, both with regards to how you used to think your AOS didn't "count" if your W had to remind you, and your self-loathing at being an "idiot." I'm ADD, too, and can be hard on myself when I forget things.
Anyway, I gotta run, but just wanted to thank you for posting this.
Did you figure that out and make that change on your own or did a therapist help?
I've been seeing a psychiatrist for a couple of years. I went because it was the best way to get hold of ADHD medication and see if it would solve my problems, not because I wanted or felt I needed "psychiatric treatment" other than to get my brain firing on all cylinders so I could finally be a productive member of society and stop letting everyone down. It helped, but not completely; I'm still having some problems with ADHD. We switched medicines a few times, and I recently found one that did something wonderful:
Shortly after starting it, I spent a few days feeling really good. I noticed that the anxiety, fear, dread, and shame I'd been feeling since.... well, actually I have trouble remembering a time that I didn't carry it around, and I'd basically long since stopped really noticing it... anyway, it was just gone. That only lasted a couple of days, but it made quite an impression on me and I kept thinking about it. Kept reading messageboards like this one. Saw what I'd been carrying around, what I should have let go of on my 18th birthday but stopped noticing long before that point, saw how I'd been hiding from everyone and neglecting them because I thought they were "putting me on trial" and they'd see any day now just how badly I was failing them, saw how I'd been blaming them for harping on my failures when they just missed me and needed me and I was doing all the punishing all by myself and blaming them.
I'm just getting started, and I still don't know how to let go of all this for good, but at least I've gotten pretty good at not blaming the people who love me and I'm hiding from them less.
Originally Posted By: fearless
My guess is your wife is happier also because when she reminded you of something and you when into your "I'm an idiot" mode, she felt BADLY because that was NOT her intention. Her intention is merely to get you to pick up the dry cleaning and not to make you feel like an idiot. Right?
Yes, it's that whole "enmeshment" concept. I feel bad, think she's making me feel bad and that she's doing it on purpose. She sees me hurt and angry and believes she did something wrong, only she can't see what she could have possibly done wrong, and gets frustrated because she can't figure out how to keep me happy and on her side. I had to see that I was feeling bad all on my own, and I had to show her that she could work with me, reach out to me, and ask for what she needs from me without hurting me.
I see this sort of thing all over the place here. When you feel ashamed of yourself, it's an unpleasant chore to get naked, literally and figuratively, with the one person whose judgement and rejection you fear more than anything else in the world. When your failure to do so hurts that other person, you feel more ashamed of yourself and find it even harder to come out of your shell. And when you've been carrying that stuff around so long you think it belongs there, you blame the other person for poking at it and confuse the heck out of them when you retaliate for imaginary offenses.
I wonder if the "alpha man" stuff gets results more because a person who sees you get hurt or angry or fearful over everything they do feels more like a failure and less like exposing herself to you, while a person who sees you keep it together and stay happy whatever they do will feel safe exposing whatever it is they're not happy with and open up to you in and out of the bedroom more readily without fearing that they'll hurt you or fail you somehow. I can say that I defer to my wife more than might be considered advisable around here, but she's a lot happier (and hornier) when I enjoy her company and work with her calmly and happily rather than fear her judgement or react badly to innocent things she does, whether or not I'm doing the leading. Maybe I just got lucky and found an exceedingly good wife.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
For the first time in...well...maybe ever, I am considering printing out a post on SSM and giving it to my wife. You have combined two of what I consider to be major issues my W and I have: 1. Your wife's view of "wifely duty", which is, unfortunately, not shared by my W. But I've tried to articulate this view to her, albeit unsuccessfully (her current view is that if, and only if, both parties are "willing", then it's just 'sex' and she won't do it without "gritting her teeth.")Your wife's view of it is beautiful, and loving, and simple.
Yeah, it shocked the he!! out of me too. Maybe my new attitude is really getting results. Or maybe she's done that for me lots of times before and she was afraid to tell me because she sensed I'd feel like a failure before I started changing my attitude.
Now, of course, if I don't push her "over the edge", I can smile and say "better luck next time" and mean it. And she knows that and relaxes with me and has a lot more fun than she ever did when I thought of nothing but doing her the right way and pushing her over the edge successfully so I could justify my presence in her bed.
I'd gotten the impression that a woman who had sex when she wasn't into it felt "violated". I guess it's more complicated than that. Not too surprising, huh?
Originally Posted By: hairdog
2. Your view of yourself is similar to mine, both with regards to how you used to think your AOS didn't "count" if your W had to remind you, and your self-loathing at being an "idiot." I'm ADD, too, and can be hard on myself when I forget things.
Stop it. (Yeah, easier said than done...) Being hard on yourself does nothing other than to annoy and confuse bystanders and drive you into the deepest darkest hole you can find. It certainly doesn't help you remember anything in the future, although it seems to stand to reason that it would. Your parents were probably frightened to death that you'd turn out to be a failure and gave you more "tough love" than you could handle and demanded things that neither they nor you knew was impossible without the right medication. They gave up their job a long time ago, and you've got to really get and understand the fact that your family, your friends, and the rest of the world in general are much too busy with their own concerns to take over the job of being your judge and inquisitor, and you've also got better things to do than go down that cheeseless tunnel.
(Or maybe I'm talking to myself again and your issue is completely different...)
Last edited by Crazy Eddie; 04/04/0704:57 PM.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
Did you figure that out and make that change on your own or did a therapist help?
I asked because it looked like you had a Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT) approach to the problem (along with the ADHD meds).
You had this core belief that you were worthless (from FOO in this case). Forgetting things gave you an automatic thought that "I am an idiot" which feeds core belief of worthlessness. You may have had an intermediate beliefs that "if I can remember things without being told, then I will NOT be worthless." Changing the core belief directly is almost impossible. By changing your automatic thoughts and intermediate beliefs you stop feeding the core belief of worthlessness and there by change the core belief. So you realized that it was okay for your wife to remind you of things because all that matters to her is that the action is DONE. And you start to realize that even if you forget, it does NOT MEAN you are worthless.
Make sense at all????
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
I'd gotten the impression that a woman who had sex when she wasn't into it felt "violated". I had somewhat the same feelings here Eddie.
If anything, what changed for you. Do you mostly see past that feeling to a point of comfort? What are some of the things you did to move beyond that point?
They gave up their job a long time ago, and you've got to really get and understand the fact that your family, your friends, and the rest of the world in general are much too busy with their own concerns to take over the job of being your judge and inquisitor, and you've also got better things to do than go down that cheeseless tunnel. Very good advice.
I'd gotten the impression that a woman who had sex when she wasn't into it felt "violated". I had somewhat the same feelings here Eddie.
If anything, what changed for you.
She told me that she gave her body to me because she loved me, even though (at that particular time) she didn't really want sex, and she was pleased with herself for giving me something I needed, and showed no sign of being unhappy or feeling "violated". I believe her, thus calling into question the simple blanket statement that a woman can't give sex purely as a favor to someone else without feeling violated.
So, now it seems there's sex with desire, pity sex, duty sex, grudging sex, and the heretorfore neglected (and possibly miniscule) category of "love" or "gift" sex.
Last edited by Crazy Eddie; 04/04/0705:26 PM.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
Did you figure that out and make that change on your own or did a therapist help?
I asked because it looked like you had a Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT) approach to the problem (along with the ADHD meds).
You had this core belief that you were worthless (from FOO in this case). Forgetting things gave you an automatic thought that "I am an idiot" which feeds core belief of worthlessness. You may have had an intermediate beliefs that "if I can remember things without being told, then I will NOT be worthless." Changing the core belief directly is almost impossible. By changing your automatic thoughts and intermediate beliefs you stop feeding the core belief of worthlessness and there by change the core belief. So you realized that it was okay for your wife to remind you of things because all that matters to her is that the action is DONE. And you start to realize that even if you forget, it does NOT MEAN you are worthless.
Make sense at all????
Makes perfect sense. Now I'm working with the intermediate belief that if I can stop blaming others for my own issues and work with them dependably, intelligently, and pleasantly enough to make it worth their while to deal with me, then I won't be worthless. Hey, it's an improvement... I said I was just getting started.
And the psychiatrist didn't tell me any of this. I did a pretty good job of hiding from him too... I basically took up every session telling him either that the meds were working well enough not to screw with them for now or that I needed something different because of this, that, or the other thing. I have a real issue with admitting that I need real "psychiatric help" with my "issues" as opposed to medicine to fix a specific condition. I just noticed what all those feelings of worthlessness were doing to me and my perceptions of everyone around me when one of those meds gave me a few days off from those feelings.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
showed no sign of being unhappy or feeling "violated". I believe her, thus calling into question the simple blanket statement that a woman can't give sex purely as a favor to someone else without feeling violated.
I think that is a good way to look at the situation CE. It would help others here like Cemar and possibly teeshann. Two different situations but with some things in common. Doing it or appreciating it just because.
Have you thought about times when the idea gift sex from your W's POV, becomes duty sex or gift sex with some resentment thrown in? I am not looking for problems for you, just indicating people with good intentions (your W) often go through up and down cycles.
