Sorry for not responding sooner. Here is what you said in the prior thread:
Quote:
Before we go down that road, let’s be sure we understand what we are talking about. When I and others here say take back power, it does not mean something like “taking” a kiss. By that I do not mean cajoling, forcing, or manipulating someone to “take” some thing. It means not allowing the other person to cause you to become reactive and therefore dependent on their actions for your satisfaction.
If you go back and read all the recommendations made to you over the years, you will see one common theme. You ask how to create desire in your W, and you know very well that you cannot get into her head and flip a switch to turn on desire. So that means another method must be use, an indirect method. Are you with me so far?
Your wife will have certain things within her right now that she finds attractive, things that trigger desire in her, of one form or another. These are paths into her heart. Your task is to become attractive to her based on one of her currently existing paths. That path may not lead to the sex and desire you want, but as an indirect route, you can cause her to open new paths, that once were open, but which she has long ago closed.
Before she will open those doors, YOU need to be safe and attractive enough to her for her to open them. As one after another door opens, she will eventually get to the doors you want. If you keep focusing on HER and why she just doesn’t go and open the door right now, then you will continue to be stuck. She does not have to open anything if she does want to. That is the bottom line. As much as you might like to believe, she does not owe you any open doors.
So “taking” back power means two things to me: 1) becoming attractive to your W so that she might be willing to open some doors, thus taking you out of the position of simply having to beg her to open those doors, which is empowering to you, and 2) addressing her grievance against you so that she has nothing left to hold over your head and justify keeping those doors shut, which again is empowering to you.
Can you see what we mean by taking back power and can you work with this definition? _________________________ Cobra
I understand what you are saying. From my position as HD male I believe that what I must do is:
1) Make myself more attractive 2) Make myself strong and confident. 3) Stop doing all the love busters.
This empowers ME. It empowers me over what I can control which is my own life. My wife controls her life. But what about the relationship, it just seems that the wwomen essentially holds 95% of the cards, there is nothing that I can change in my relationship that does not require her to change something first. I guess this is why Deida and Eldridge both say that the relationship is determined by the women, and thus redirect the man to focus exclusively on himself. This does not seem like a 50/50 split on the power of the relationship, more like 90/10. Is this really the best us guys can hope for?
I understand what you are saying. From my position as HD male I believe that what I must do is:
1) Make myself more attractive 2) Make myself strong and confident. 3) Stop doing all the love busters.
Yes. There is no reason for you not to do these things. Whether or not your wife changes her behaviors, you doing these things will pay off for YOU one way or another.
Originally Posted By: cemar2
This empowers ME. It empowers me over what I can control which is my own life. My wife controls her life. But what about the relationship, it just seems that the wwomen essentially holds 95% of the cards, there is nothing that I can change in my relationship that does not require her to change something first.
Not true. There is no requirement that she change anything FIRST. Either of you could go first. Since you want to fix things NOW and she would just as soon live with it for a while, your best bet is for YOU to go first.
But there is a need for BOTH of you to change. That means that, in effect, you BOTH hold 95% of the cards. Either of you, by refusing to change, can leave the other unhappy and leave the relationship in shambles.
But changing yourself will get her attention and will possibly encourage (not force) her to change. If not, it'll still pay off in other areas of your life.
You can't lose. There's no reason in the world not to do it.
Originally Posted By: cemar2
I guess this is why Deida and Eldridge both say that the relationship is determined by the women, and thus redirect the man to focus exclusively on himself. This does not seem like a 50/50 split on the power of the relationship, more like 90/10. Is this really the best us guys can hope for?
The relationship is determined by what each of you brings to the table, and your best bet for changing that is to work on yourself so you can bring something different to the table.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
But what about the relationship, it just seems that the wwomen essentially holds 95% of the cards, there is nothing that I can change in my relationship that does not require her to change something first.
This is an assumption on your part. Have you asked your wife how she sees the balance of power in your M? My guess is that she will have a completely different ratio in mind. How do you reconcile the difference between your 95/5 and her ratio, whatever that turns out to be? Better yet, ask her. Tell us what she says.
I guess this is why Deida and Eldridge both say that the relationship is determined by the women, and thus redirect the man to focus exclusively on himself.
Are you sure this is what Dieda says? I have not read Eldridge, but I think Dieda sees the man as having a major role in any R, but the way he expresses his part is different from how a woman should express her part. Why is it you can only relate to the methods women use to influence the R? Why does the idea of acting in the way Dieda proposes seem so foreign to you. Its like you can’t even grasp what Dieda is saying.
This does not seem like a 50/50 split on the power of the relationship, more like 90/10.
How do you get 90/10? If you really think about it CeMar, and try to put yourself in the woman’s shoes in the scenario that Dieda proposes, how would a woman feel like she has 90 and the man has 10? I would think the woman might feel to opposite rations apply. After all, she is focused on the R and making the man the center of her universe. He is her primary objective. Yet she is pursuing someone whose primary objective is something else, not her. How comforting is that to her? Remember, put yourself in her shoes and try to imagine how it would feel chasing someone who you know is chasing something else?
Perhaps you can do this too well, because your posts seem to reflect this very mindset. Perhaps what you are missing is that as abandoned as you may feel, your W feels the same. If you are to become the “man,” the “pack leader” or whatever you want to call it, wouldn’t that make your wife even more insecure? How would you feel in her shoes? So why is it that you continually live under the illusion that your wife holds all the power in your M?
Just because she control your access to sex does not mean she holds the power. Before I go any further, can we reach a level of understanding on this point so far? Tell me if any of this makes sense to you. Ladies, am I anywhere close with my analogy?
I appreciate your comments to Cemar. From the little I have read Dieda and from Burgbud's comment, Cemar does not seem to have understood Dieda at all if he has read him. I might phrase it differently than you. If the man does not step up and be the "man" in the relationship, then the woman is stuck and the man holds 95% of the relationship power by not doing his part. What has Cemar done to be the man that his wife would desire? He apparently has no other purpose in life than to be desired and given great head by his wife (or some woman). Deida clearly states that a man should have a purpose in life other than his woman. I remember Cemar specifically saying that his wife asks him what projects he has lined up for the weekend. She is practically drawing him a map of how to appeal to her. Instead of playing video games, watching TV, or any other passive activity why does he not go out and figure out a project to spend the next month or two working on? How might she respond if he threw himself into a project and completed it? Especially if it was something that would benefit her or the family - a deck, a patio, adirondack chairs, a picnic table, garden, tool shed, etc.
Cemar,
I am going to be rude but I really not sure what your point is when you revert back to whining about who has the most power in the relationship. For me and the other women that have done all we are "supposed" (a la Dr. Laura) to do in a relationship and had our husbands leave us anyway, it sure as hell feels like our husbands had all of the power in the relationship.
Arguing about who has the most "power" in a relationship is a "cheeseless tunnel" type of debate. How will it help your marriage one bit if we decide that you or your wife has the most power? My irritation with you on these types of discussions is because I feel like the arguments are just distractions from the main point of improving your marriage and getting sex and desire you supposedly want from your wife.
You must decide what you want and then do all YOU can within your power to get it. Sitting around discussing whether it is fair or whining about how unfair all of this is to you and to other men is understandable but pretty useless all the same. If someone's house burns down, they can sit around crying as long as they want and complaining how unfair it is but crying and complaining will not build a new house or replace what they had. Eventually they have to get up, call the insurance company, re-evaluate their finances, maybe get a second job to help pay, etc.
At this point I doubt your sincerity at wanting to do the work to get what you CLAIM to want. I am responding with a slight hope that it will get through to you but I admit my bigger and more realistic hope is that others on the board can HEAR what I am saying to you.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
What I got from Dieda was that the man’s role in a marriage was to provide the solid foundation and security for the family that comes from successful pursuit of his “purpose.” That purpose can be his career, or a sideline career that he is developing, like building a new business on the side, supported by his day job. But it should be something the man believes in or is devoted to. A church career or missionary work might fit this role.
What I did NOT hear is that the man’s purpose is to serve the woman to try and make her happy. That is a losing game because her happiness is emotion based and can change as easily as her emotions change. The solidity of the man’s purpose is something the woman envies and needs for her own stability, so the main responsibility of the man in regard to the marriage is to share his stability, his success, and the fruits of his success with his woman.
This does not mean the man should choose a pursuit designed to make the woman happy (because her definition of “happiness” can change). I know you said you do a lot of chores around the house, help out with the kids, etc., which is required to keep a sense of fairness in the M, but can you tell me how those chores fit in with YOUR purpose? What is your purpose? What is your dream? Don’t tell me it is to get your W to desire you.
CeMar, it seems you keep confusing cause and effect. The EFFECT you want is to have your W desire you. That is a result of you creating the conditions to allow her create that effect. If you do not create those conditions (the cause), she will not respond with the effect. You seem to want the “effect” without putting forth the “cause.” Can you understand what I am saying? You focus on the “effect” because it seems so logical to you, but if you flowchart the path that leads to “effect,” with the understanding that you cannot get to “effect” without first going through “cause,” you will see that you are not doing your part.
Just as an aside CeMar, have you ever been diagnosed as having autistic or Asperger’s like symptoms? Do you have trouble reading subtle clues from people or “reading between the lines?”
Also, I agree with Corri. Drop the annoyance and anger.
My goal WAS to have a women that wants me. My goal was to have a lover for the rest of my life. Apparently, that goal was TOO high. So now I struggle to identify what my goal or puprose is. I do know that it is NOT my job. Have you discovered your purpose or goal? If all you have for the rest of your life is fulfilling that goal, will that be enough for you?
I have no quarrel with you wanting to be desired as a goal, though it is something that leaves you quite vulnerable, as you know. But focusing on the fact that you cannot catch this fish without strategizing how to build the best bait and develop the best method for casting out that bait is what traps you. If you make it your purpose or goal in life to be the best bait maker and the best fisherman, you will catch more fish. If you don’t necessarily want all those fish, just to keep the one you already have. But since you cannot force her to stay what method are you willing to use to entice her to stay? If being a master fisherman will work to entice all the other fish, it is a pretty sure bet the same will entice your wife.
My goal WAS to have a women that wants me. My goal was to have a lover for the rest of my life.
Rather than thinking of the above as your “goal,” think of having a woman how desires you as your reward for successful implementation and execution of your goal. Your goal should be to become a master fisherman, continually refining his bait, his tools, his methods, etc. The reward is a woman who wants you. Once you stop pursuit of your goal, your reward will vanish too. Savvy?
So going back to my old analogy of paths and doors, try to understand what it is that attracts your wife to a man. Which of her many doors is the way to her heart? Then ask yourself what kind of bait and method will you use to entice her to open that door? In other words, as everyone here has been telling you for EONS, what are YOU going to do to make yourself attractive to your W? That work on yourself, which includes a successful and stable career, inner happiness and peace, a knowledge of and confidence in yourself, is what your goal should be. A loving W is your reward, but not your goal.
I am going to throw in a contrary note here. IMO, what CeMar wants is a woman who will appreciate him on the level of "male candy". That is probably what I find likable or at least amusing about him because I am a woman who can appreciate men on the level of "candy". CeMar has never posted a picture of himself but he claims to be attractive and muscular. Therefore, in the short run, he should have no problem attracting women on that level. So what is his problem in the long run? Liz Phair is a HD female songwriter who I really love. This song "Flower" is from her album "Exile in Guyville" which she wrote as a female response to "Exile on Main Street" by the Rolling Stones. It's all about the POV of a HDW who is regarding a guy as "male candy".
Quote:
Everytime I see your face I get all wet between my legs Everytime you pass me by, I heave a sigh of pain
(background lyrics sung throughout)
Everytime I see your face I think of things unpure, unchaste I want to f*ck you like a dog I'll take you home and make you like it Everything you ever wanted Everything you ever thought of Is everything I'll do to you I'll f*ck you and your minions, too Your face reminds me of a flower Kind of like you're underwater Hair's too long and in your eyes Your lips a perfect "suck me" size You act like you're fourteen years old Everything you say is so obnoxious, funny, true and mean I want to be your blowjob queen You're probably shy and introspective That's not part of my objective I just want your fresh, young jimmy Jamming, slamming, ramming in me Everytime I see your face I think of things unpure, unchaste I want to f*ck you like a dog I'll take you home and make you like it Everything you ever wanted Everything you ever thought of Is everything I'll do to you I'll f*ck you till your d*ck is blue
As you can see, she doesn't really describe a lot of male behavior that could typically be described as Alpha or "good". The personality traits she list are that the guy:
1) Acts like he is 14 years old. (I'm thinking of Iggy Pop even though he's 60) 2) Is obnoxious, even mean. 3) Is funny. 4) Speaks the truth, probably indicative of intelligence also. 5) Is shy. (This is a very common HDW rationalization for coming on to a guy instead of waiting for him to come on to her.) 6) Is introspective.
I think what I'm trying to convey here is that acting "Alpha" might get a woman to let you f*ck her or even want you to f*ck her but acting "Alpha" won't get a woman to want to f*ck you or do you which is what CeMar wants.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
