Financial advice--WAW still on a spending binge

[Bruce1]

I'd welcome any insights from people who've been further down this road than I am now. WAW and I have been separated three months, no kids. We both work, and earn roughly the same amount of money. I have been out of the house for three months; I'm living in an apartment, and so there are some duplicated expenses for us (mortgage/rent, phone, internet, cable, utilities).

Wife has been spending $ like mad since we separated. We're not broke by any means, and we still can pay off credit cards each month. We have about 40K in liquid cash assets right now. To pump it to that level, she sold about 20K in stocks a month ago that were in her name only. I have an email from her saying she was willing to do that so we could get through "this time." So, I see that money as for both of us. I've been much, much more frugal than she. Just last month she spent about $5k on clothes, trip, etc. (in other words, stuff just for her). The previous month was probably close to that, but I save all statements and could easily add it up. Money still comes in with our respective paychecks (we take home about $6500 a month combined after taxes and retirement saving), but you can see that if this pace continues for much longer, the $ pool will shrink fast.

She's been opening the bank statements (I go to the house periodically to pay bills), which she never used to do. I don't know if that's guilt over what she knows she's spending, or plotting for a D, or both, but I've given up trying to guess her motivations.

I've read all about MLC and see how this shopping bender fits the pattern and masks a deep hurt she feels. I really do feel sorry for her in some ways, and guilt over my role in creating problems in the marriage.

One other thing to keep in mind here: her family is very wealthy and can provide her with all the money she wants to go to the mall, etc. My family has nothing. If we D, I don't have a trust fund or inheritance to count on later in life. I'm on my own. She has NOT mentioned D, however. We don't talk much right now. I'm giving her the space she has requested.

Here are my questions.
1. Should I take a unilateral approach and tell her what I've done only after I've done it?

--Should I open a new bank account just in my name?
--Should I unilaterally take half the money out of our joint account and add it to that new account?
--Should I cut her name off two credit cards that are primarily in my name, and then, as a similar act, cut up my two cards that are primarily in her name, in effect saying "you pay your bills, I'll pay mine, and we'll have to figure out something about the mortgage?"

One option is the unilateral approach. Just do it and tell her what I've done.

2. Try to talk about it?
--Should I try to have an open conversation with her, sharing my concerns and asking what she propose we do? She's been above board about the selling of stock; she didn't have to do that. However, I don't feel she has a right to burn through what we've worked so hard to save over the years. She seems intent on getting what she feels she wants, so I wonder how rational she would be right now.

3. Do nothing for now.
Should I do nothing and let it ride for another month or so? If she keeps up this pace the funds will dwindle fast over the next three months or so.

The unilateral approach has lots of appeal; I have been patient all summer and she is driving this bus in many ways. Perhaps I need to show her I have limits. I am conflict averse, but maybe this is the time to really work on that fault and show her some limits. I'm not running out on the marriage, but I don't want to be a doormat and stand to lose financially if things don't change and we D.

On the other hand, does the unilateral approach risk driving her further away? Should I even care if it does? Would the unilateral approach go against the DB techniques by being a form of "pressure." Or is pressure exactly what she needs right now?

If we end up D, does anyone know if I have a "right" in court to seek money from her for her spending habits that benefited only her during the separation? Could I take credit card statements from this period to court and ask her to compensate me for her spending of our "joint" resources? Given her act of selling stock but saying she was willing to do so for both of us, would she have any right to demand that I put it back if I took half of what's left unilaterally?

I'm confused, and scared, as financial worries have long been one of my deep anxieties given family history.

Thanks for reading and offering any advice you might be able to share.

[Exiled]

I'm confused, and scared, as financial worries have long been one of my deep anxieties given family history.

What state do you live in? Things a different from state to state.

My advise is to get a lawyer and talk to them.

I still live with my WAW. I've been DBing for close to 2 years now. In my case, detachment became much easier after I talked to a lawyer. I found out that I wouldn't be destitute if it came to a D. In fact, to stop the financial bleeding, I'd make out on the deal. To change the words on an old song "I never knew DEBT before, then came you".

My WAW is a mom who stays at home (and I worded that quite carefully), from a family where, well lets just say unemployment runs in the family.

I was told (and again, YMMV depending on your state, and length of M) that everything is 50-50 (even the assets I brought into the M) My WAW never worked. In your case, I'm guessing that you would split everything, including the debt.

Just because you cover you ass-ets doesn't mean you have to file nor does it mean you can't DB.


As for credit cards, I can steal your wallet if you like, or perhaps you just loose it. Ask WAW if you left it there.


After a few days, just cancel all the cards and ask WAW what you should do about replacements.

[nephartiti]

I'm in a similar situation contemplating the same things. In my case we have 2 small children. Most of the money comes from him b/c my compensation for my job is an apartment and a small salary.

He has been spending $ on OW and a new cell phone. He says he is not going to cut me off but he has developed a reputation for not following through with his word.

He has the minivan we just bought. I have asked him to put that loan in his name, get his own acct, and agree to an amt for child support. Simply won't cooperate.

I don't know if this is because he doesn't know what he wants or if he is just being difficult and irresponsible.

If I push too hard, do I push him farther away? If I do nothing, do I get screwed?

I'd like to know how you decide to handle your situation.

[inmyplace]

Bruce,

Let me go straight to this.

I'm confused, and scared

You said this in regards to money and your families worries about finances. My financial situation is one in which I have to pay attention to every dollar. Nothing wrong with that. Now what you are really afraid of is that if you take action, you would push her to divorce you, or worse that your only recourse would be to file for divorce to protect your assets. And my guess is that you have equity in the home in which your wife is living.

Bruce, without going to deeply into your proposals, it all comes down to risk. What do you want to risk? That is what will determine your choice. But I am going to warn you about case 2, you will talk to her. Her spending has the feel (to me) of a f*** you. I am spending this money and I really don't give a s**t what you think. If you bring up the subject, be ready for the worst.

Also, irrelevant factors:
* Her family's wealth. This is about you.
* Duplicate expenses. If course, you live in different places. What does this cost you? As I see it, she pays nothing for the duplication.
* Opening of bank statement by wife. It does make sense that she has an idea of the finances. She never had to do it before. Even if she is checking on, so what.
* "I've read all about MLC and see how this shopping bender fits the pattern and masks a deep hurt she feels. I really do feel sorry for her in some ways, and guilt over my role in creating problems in the marriage." Or not. It is pure speculation on your part. And if she is like this, it doesn't change your need to protect yourself financially.

One more thought. If you decide not to confront her and she is hellbent on spending all your fund perhaps cutting into your non-liquid equity, then you need to go out and have some fun too. At least you will get something out of it. Or you could be so kind to join me in a visit to Amsterdamn...your treat!

Again, Bruce, this is really about what you want and what you are willing to risk. You have to put the fear of reprisal behind you. I am not an expert. I don't know what her reaction may be to a strong position on your part. But, in the long run, showing weakness (or as you put it being a doormat) isn't going to lead to a successful marriage.

Finally, you said/asked:

If we end up D, does anyone know if I have a "right" in court to seek money from her for her spending habits that benefited only her during the separation? Could I take credit card statements from this period to court and ask her to compensate me for her spending of our "joint" resources? Given her act of selling stock but saying she was willing to do so for both of us, would she have any right to demand that I put it back if I took half of what's left unilaterally?

Talk to an attorney.

Bruce, just trying to help you cut through the factors to be considered.

IMP

IMP

[goal]

Just a simple answer to your question. Protect yourself.
Don't worry about hurting her feelings or causing her to get angry. The more you let her inappropriate behavior to continue the more financially she will devastate you and the more SHE WILL LOSE RESPECT FOR YOU.

My H did not stop and take notice of me until I started to do this. I know every sitch is different, but I believe the longer you let them walk on you, the more they forget about you and lose interest.

Luv goal

[Bruce1]

IMP and Goal:

Thanks for your insightful replies. IMP, I feel you are right on when you say her spending is a giant "F YOU" gesture. The more I think about this, the more I really think the idea of trying to have a rational conversation about where we go from here financially will quickly turn into an emotional "I deserve this for all I took from you" "this is my time to get what I want" conversation. Her pain, and how she deals with it, is her business as long as we are separated. If she gets to a point where she wants to really talk and work together, that's different. I am still willing to enter that dialogue, though I know it might not avoid a D. For now, I still stand for the marriage.

I have done some more thinking since my post, and reading your posts fits with where I'm leaning now. This is about protecting assets, but it's deeper than that. It really is about the type of person I want to be. As a result of therapy and a lot of reading and soul searching this summer, I see I have been conflict averse for too long in my marriage/life. Part of it was not being deeply in touch with my feelings but also part of it was a desire for peace. This goes way back to watching my parents interact. Dad was too passive with my mother, who had a temper. They fought a lot, so conflict makes me uncomfortable.
It would be healthy for me to get more comfortable with it!

I'm increasingly thinking I need to make my stand and just tell her what I do. Let her react the way she does. If she wants to use this as the trigger for a D, then maybe that tells me something about her character, that she's not really good for me. IMP, you are right to say that what I must focus on is not reconciliation for the sake of reconciliation, but a marriage, if we can get there, that is good for both of us. That means we both confront our individual demons as well as the problematic ways we interacted. Cutting off the credit cards and opening a new account might be just what I need to do for my psyche.

I will look for an attorney about potential equity issues in the house if a D comes. I'm not filing for a D. I will make her pull that trigger.

Finally, are there any angles I'm missing here? All I can think of for now are the checking account and credit cards.

Thanks for your thoughts; they really helped!

[Bruce1]

One more question for IMP, Goal, or anyone else reading. I know I need to see an attorney, and will do so as soon as I can find one. Any suggestions for how to do this? It's all new territory for me.

One more--any thoughts on what to do to protect my part of the house as long as we aren't filing for D? In other words, I could go ahead an unilaterally separate some money, and cut her off credit cards and give her (or cut up for her) my copies of cards in her name, but what should I do about how we pay the mortgage?

As always, many thanks.

[inmyplace]

Bruce,

I have a question about this:

Her pain, and how she deals with it

Can you tell me why you refer to her pain? Did she tell you she was in pain? How do you know she is in pain?

If she wants to use this as the trigger for a D, then maybe that tells me something about her character, that she's not really good for me.

Let's no worry about her character. Because if she did leave as you have said, except for the spending, she was pretty up front about the issues. Better than what most of us here were given. Many of us found out our spouses were screwing someone.

I will look for an attorney about potential equity issues in the house if a D comes. I'm not filing for a D. I will make her pull that trigger.

Your money could be gone by then, even if you do separate finances. Never say never. You have to be willing to do whatever it takes to protect yourself. Go look at posting by goal, especially her earlier ones where she filed for divorce because her H started a spending spree. If you are going to take this off the table, you won't follow through with anything confrontational.

IMP

[Bruce1]

IMP:

Thanks for your post. The brief glimpses/hints of pain have been from a few brief phone conversations in which she has referred to this being hard on both of us, her saying she was up to 2:30am one morning crying, and most important, an incident a couple of weeks ago when I saw her at the house. She initially got very made at me, apologized, and then fell down on the floor crying, saying "My life is all F...ed up." I asked if she wanted to talk about anything, but she said no. I left to go into the garage to leave. She started crying louder. I went back one more time and asked if she wanted to talk about anything. No. I left again.

That's not much over three months of separation, I grant you. We did see each other a couple of times socially at the start and had a wonderful time each time. I know she wasn't acting. It was the best sense of connection we'd had in a long time. Since then, she hasn't wanted to do anything. I know her reasons for the separation, and I'm working on me with the realization that it may be too late to save the M. She hasn't talked divorce or even suggested that's where she thinks we're headed. She did say early in the summer that she thought I needed to work on my issues, she needed to work on hers. Overall, though, it's been a big wall of silence on the deep stuff. I respect that, hard as it is sometimes. Here's one place my conflict averse personality may have paid off--I have not begged, whined, guilted, etc. her at all.

I'm a little confused on how I might need to initiate divorce to protect assets. If I unilaterally move $ and cut off cards, is that enough for now? If she initiates the D, would my equity in the house be protected? I need to see a lawyer.

Thanks.

[Bruce1]

IMP

One other clue about pain. Many years ago, before we were married, she had a well paying job that made her miserable. Her "reward" for making it through another week was to go to the mall nearly every Thursday night and drop a bunch of money.