It's hard to believe that we're coming up on our wedding anniversary, the date that I had set as an un-official deadline for seeing some form of significant improvement in our relationship, both physical and otherwise: or else we'd throw in the towel. We've both worked out butts off during this past year to make things better between us, and the results have gone beyond what I dared to dream of. We are far from where we'd like to be, and we regress to old habits every now and again and have to re-invigorate our effort to turn new patterns into new habits, but there is no question that this year has paid off, with interest.
Onward, and upward!
Bagheera
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
This is a long post that I originally placed in Silly Old Bear's thread in the For Newcomer's forum. I wanted to have a copy over here in the SSM forum that I could point to, even though the topic is still rather embarrassing for me to talk about.
Confessions of a Premature Ejaculator
I grew up in a strict, religious household with domineering, critical parents. My mother, in particular, was terrified of teenaged male sexuality, and did her utmost to monitor my every erection to make sure I didn't do anything 'perverted' with it. As a result, I learned how to secretly reach orgasm quickly and efficiently during masturbation -- along with a good dose of guilt to go with it. Given a few years of this, and you get a man with sometimes severe PE problems when it comes to sexual interactions with a women, particularly with vaginal penetration.
For most of my marriage, my wife and I adopted a solution of me giving her an orgasm manually first, followed by an all-too-quick orgasm for myself via penetration. While it was alright (note the lukewarm tone), we both wanted more from our sexual encounters. Last year, after I began my campaign to rebuild my marriage and get my wife on board to do the same, I set out to solve my PE problem once and for all. There is a lot of misinformation out there on the web, a lot of 'quick and easy' solutions that don't work, so I can hopefully save you the headache and point in the proper direction to solve PE and master ejaculatory control.
Recommended Reading
I'm going to recommend two books, and I hope this isn't seen as advertising -- it isn't. I've culled through a lot of coal to find the diamonds, so hopefully my sharing them will be seen as just that:
The first book is called The New Male Sexuality, by Bernie Zilbergeld. It was recommended to me by our current sex therapist and contains the detailed exercises that he uses for solving PE problems in his clients. Note that PE problems only take up one chapter, but the rest of the book is a very good and insightful read.
The second book has the absolute cheesiest title ever, and is called How to Make Love All Night (and Drive a Woman Wild!), by Barbara Keesling. It's ostensibly about teaching men how to achieve the so-called male multiple-orgasm (MMO), or 'orgasm without ejaculation,' which allows you to carry on to more orgasms until you're ready to have a 'final' orgasm with ejaculation. However, the book's real value is in the ejaculatory control training and exercises leading up to the MMO. Once you've reached the point where you can 'plateau' your arousal state indefinitely while actively thrusting, and then have ONE very nice orgasm when (and only when) you are ready, you may not even care to go on the MMO.
Thirdly, do a Google or Yahoo search on "Kegels PC muscle man men," and read up on the advantages of strengthening and regularly exercising your PC (puboccocygues) muscles. Kegels are NOT just for women, and are very beneficial for men too, particularly those with PE problems. Start a daily Kegal routine now (Kessling's book will put you on one too), as it will take a few weeks to get that muscle group up to snuff with regard to ejaculatory control.
What Doesn't Work
As I said, there is a lot of stuff on the web regarding PE that doesn't work very well. Two techniques to steer clear of are:
(1) The 'squeeze' technique: this is an old method whereby the penis is removed from the vagina as orgasm is approached and the glans manually 'squeezed' to back the arousal state back down. Not only does this interrupt everything, but it also doesn't teach you how to control your arousal via any other method.
(2) The mental 'distraction' technique: this is also an old method which encourages you to distract yourself mentally by focusing on something outside of what you are doing, such as thinking about your ugly Aunt Petunia. Forget it. The techniques you want to master are ones that encourage you to focus on your body and sensations, your partner, and to stay 'in the moment.'
What Does Work
Good ejaculatory control involves a medley of techniques, not just one in particular, that you use in tandem with each other, depending up the circumstances. Your goal is to maintain an arousal level of about 6-8 (on a 1-10 scale) indefinitely, until you are ready to 'drive home' to orgasm. You'll find that this control is very much a 'mind game,' such that as you gain experience and confidence, you'll be able to maintain control more automatically and less 'mechanically' using these techniques:
(1) Thrusting Speed control: faster thrusting builds arousal, slower thrusting lowers arousal. Learning this technique begins with the standard 'Stop - Start' procedure (which tends to interrupt the action and enjoyment for HER), but does become less extreme with practice and experience.
(2) Thrusting Motion control: certain positions / angles are more stimulating than others, so a short-term shift to something less stimulating can be used to drop your arousal level. In my experience, however, those positions which are most stimulating to me are also the most stimulating to HER, so again, this can lead to an interruption in her arousal too.
(3) Breathing control: rapid, shallow breathing builds arousal, slow, deep breathing lowers arousal. This is a very important technique to master, along with thrusting speed and PC muscle control.
(4) PC Muscle Squeeze: This is Keesling's primary technique, and works quite effectively after you've built up that muscle group, either in the form of a series of short, 'hard' squeezes or one long 'hard' squeeze. Note, however: a 'light' squeeze can have the opposite effect and enhance your arousal, so take care.
(5) PC Muscle 'Push': because the PC muscles tend to slowly tense up as your arousal builds, you can reduce your arousal level by purposefully relaxing them, or 'pushing' with them. Note that a true PC Muscle Push does not involve your abdominal muscles -- only the PC muscle group.
(6) Mental Sensation Shift: this technique is the most difficult to master (I'm still working on it), and involves mentally shifting your sensation focus from the orgasm-building head of your penis to somewhere else, such as the shaft or internal prostrate area.
With lots of practice, this gives you SIX ways that you can either build or lower your arousal level, and with time, do so without interrupting your partner's arousal buildup.
Final Hints
The key to going from a PE prone man to one with good ejaculatory control is practice, practice, practice. This involves a 2-3 times daily Kegel routine, and a 2-3 times weekly 'exercise' routine --> beginning with masturbation exercises and working to partner exercises. In my case, my wife wasn't all that keen on the sex-as-an-exercise idea, so I went as far as I could go "by hand" on my own, and then incorporated the remaining, penetration exercises into our normal lovemaking.
The entire program will take a few months to several months to complete (depending upon the individual), so be very patient and forgiving with yourself, accept setbacks and stall points along the way, and don't proceed on to the next exercise until you fully master the previous. Also, don't over-exercise your PC muscles by doing too many 'reps' and such -- they don't work well for ejaculatory control when they're tired and sore.
If you have questions or comments at any point along the way, holler at me. I'm still aghast that I admitted to my own PE past here on these forums, but hey, that's what we're here for -- to help each other.
Best regards,
Bagheera
Last edited by Bagheera; 08/11/0802:48 PM.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
It appears that our summer vacation, in which my wife was out of town for five weeks, myself for three weeks, and the two of us being together for only the final two weeks of travel, was more of a setback than I had hoped it would be.
I've already noted that as our two week vacation together wore on, my wife became more and more involved in the vacation, and less and less involved in maintaining some level of intimacy between us. This has continued now that we're back home, since there are now five weeks of home 'stuff' (housework, yardwork, errands, outside activities) piled up to catch up on, as well as several boxes of items (that we moved from AZ to NY) scattered around the house and waiting to be put away. She's not going to feel comfortable and 'at home' again until everything is cleaned, tidy, and well managed again.
My complaint is that my wife still treats intimacy with her husband (both emotional and physical) as a luxury item: something that she can't permit herself to indulge in unless everything else is in order. When life puts a little pressure on us, it's the first thing to be sacrificed. From my perspective, I don't see why we can't maintain a nice level of intimacy while handling all of life's 'stuff' AT THE SAME TIME! I'm willing to pitch in and do my fair share and help clear the muck, but a little Mommy-Daddy playtime during the work breaks would be nice too! It's been three weeks since our nice little reunion weekend, and I'm starting to miss the connection with her. And yes, we've had sex since then, but it hasn't been of the really close, passionate, and connecting variety. She's even starting to feel a bit 'pressured' for sex again, and it's obvious why -- she's been avoiding, and therefore doesn't feel a close emotional connection right now.
Ah well, I'm patient...I think.... She's going to have to relax and learn to keep US as a higher priority even when the muck piles up a little on us. Life won't always been smooth sailing, and I'm the type that when things get *really* tough, that's when I'll turn to her the most for connection. We've hit that snag before: I tend to reach out for connection and comfort, and she tends to withdraw into her protective shell.
-- B.
Last edited by Bagheera; 08/12/0801:55 AM.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
Whew! I just now got home from work, a two-hour drive, and I am trying to, at the least, keep up with your thread.I have been wanting to comment on some of the things I've read on your thread over the weekend, and, in fact, I did make one comment on my thread. But I'm also torn between wanting to finish reading most of it before I do so, and so far, I've not made much leeway.
Anyway, here's what I read just now, with comments:
"Life won't always been smooth sailing, and I'm the type that when things get *really* tough, that's when I'll turn to her the most for connection. We've hit that snag before: I tend to reach out for connection and comfort, and she tends to withdraw into her protective shell."
I am very sure that I cannot add any wisdom to your already vast knowledge of your wife, but if I may speak up, then I will do so. If you have any objections to my words, please do tell, and I'll respect that.
Anyway, when I read your wife's bedroom list yesterday, that was as far as I could go, for the time being. I think I mentioned this already, although I didn't say why. Your wife and I seem to have a lot of similarities, in that we come from a similar background in our pasts. I became so emotional because I see/saw myself in her.
My first question to myself, when I read your above quoted comment was: "Has he told her these things." And my answer to myself was, "Absolutely. This guys is a relationship genius." (I took out some of my thoughts in fear of offending some of the other men on your thread -- and I'm sure there are many -- not that I believe they would necessarily be offended, but, I've been known to be a bit outspoken, which is to say that I am not always wise).
Anywhoooo, if you have hit a "snag" before, what did you do then? How did you fix it? Could it be that your wife just needs her space temporarily? Well, of course, you already know the answers to these questions, so why am I asking? I'm not sure; maybe just give you a gentle reminder, a nudge, that your wife has too much "on her plate" right now and needs to get the "other" things done before she can think/feel? Who knows. The "needy" door swings both ways, doesn't it?
Anyway, I've probably said too much already. Take care. Good night. poet
I just read your update. I can sense that this bothers you, but also that you know you need to remain patient and loving and things will probably correct themselves.
I wanted to throw some things out there in case you aren't doing them or don't have it "down" yet...here goes:
One of the reasons I am a sex machine all the time is that my man basically seduces me all day long, every day. Most of his seduction is done within my own mind, because I fantasize about him all day. But the reason I do this is because he keeps me in a hightened state of physical arousal every single day. How does he do this? Well, there are several things at play but here are some of them...
1. We make out every day, sometimes more than once. I will straddle him on the couch or he will push me up against the wall in the hall way, and we will go at each other like teenagers between classes. He will feel me up, usually over the clothes, but sometimes he will rip my shirt up. We mash our naughty bits together. He man-handles my breats. I grab, rub, touch him anywhere I can. We kiss deeply and passionately and embrace tightly. We can't go long without making out like this. As I said, at least once per day.
2. He is in beautiful physical condition. Women are visual too, and even if not to the same extent as most men are, a woman will still be happy to admire a man's physique in a lusty way, if he is looking his healthiest best.
3. He "takes" what is his. It is in his attitude that I will not be allowed to withhold myself (including my body) from him, that he will just "take" me. Now, as you know, this is a difficult attitude to adopt but...if/when you can get it down, it really DOES begin to take precidence over the housework. Therefore, all the making out and his man-handling me at any time he wants to is all due to his attitude that I "belong" to him and he can take me as he pleases. He earned this right from me over time, but it truly is his right at this point.
OK I am back....BTW, above breats should be breasts, obviously....I tried to edit my post but it said the time had expired? Weird. Anyway...
Now Baggy, I know that you have children and the whole relationship is different at your home than at my empty nest. But here's the deal...even though I don't have children with my fiance, I know that if we did have them together, he would still be the same seducing beautiful creature he is today. He would still demand to be able to have access to my body (to caress it, kiss me, hold me tightly, and to have me touch him, too). I know that even if we had little kids around, he would still shove me up against a wall and kiss me deeply frequently...and even if a kid did pop around the corner and caught us, well...you know, that isn't such a bad thing for a kid to see. You know?
As long as neither of you were showing any skin, a kid really SHOULD see passion between his parents, and catching them by accident is even more healthy for the kid. It would give the kid a sense that "mom and dad sneak off to be oogy-googy together", which is a positive message.
So my point is this...you have to take this role on yourself first and BE that man who can and will take his woman for a quicky deeply passionate 5 minutes of making out, whenever you want to. If you do it correctly, she will be in that heightened state of arousal for 24 hours afterward, and she will be thinking about you and the sexy encounter (just under the surface of her consciousness) that whole time. This is what I meant when I said most of the seduction efforts my man does go on in my own mind.
To be sure, you know I am not suggesting you just start slamming your wife up against a wall once a day. BUT...I bet if you give it a try just ONCE in the next few days, grab a handful of some part of her body or her hair when she isnt expecting it and as she is opening her mouth to either gasp or protest, you plant a deep kiss on her before she can get the words out...then work with the kiss and the caress for at least 10 full seconds before you let her up for air...then touch her face and tell her "You know, sometimes the world will try to get in the way, but I wanted to remind you that you are still MINE and mine first". Then release her and go on with your business.
She will still be breathless for a few moments, then she will shake it off. But the NEXT DAY while she is going about some mundane task...her mind will find that memory and it will put some loving magical sexual energy into her spirit - she will be suddenly BLASTED mentally with the fun and breathless factor of your stolen kiss.
If you can do this once in a while, and then more and more often...well you get the picture. If you can show her that you are interested in a brief wonderful very sexually energized encounter with her nearly every day, and it does not have to lead to sex, and that you WILL show some playful dominance over her like that "when the kids aren't looking", then she will be able to find her sexy MILF within even during the normal family busy day.
1. We make out every day, sometimes more than once. I will straddle him on the couch or he will push me up against the wall in the hall way, and we will go at each other like teenagers between classes.
This is really NOT an option on the table right now DQ. I wish it was, be she ain't there yet. Do you remember the discussion you had regarding how annoyed -- not turned on -- a woman feels when she's in Mommy-mode, her hands in sink doing dishes, and her husband comes up behind her? Well, magnify that reaction by 10 and you have my wife. I can get away with non-sexual touch during the day, perhaps even a whispered sexual innuendo, but not more at this point. If I suddenly threw her up against the wall, I'd likely get a knee to the crotch or a fight at the very least.
At the same time, I know she likes the IDEA of this sort of thing in principle. But with her sending off so many negative vibes about such a thing in actual practice, I'll need to choose my time carefully (and wear a cup) to attempt it....along with a shot of confidence. More on that below.
Originally Posted By: DanceQueen
2. Women are visual too, and even if not to the same extent as most men are, a woman will still be happy to admire a man's physique in a lusty way, if he is looking his healthiest best.
Aye to that. While I no longer have the calloused hands and athletic physique of my younger days when my job involved a lot of manual labor (in addition to technical expertise), I did start (and have kept up) an exercise regime this past spring, and would at least consider myself "fit" now, office man that I am. I have about 10 more pounds to lose before I'll be back at an optimal 150-155 lbs. Those last 10 pounds suck....
Originally Posted By: DanceQueen
3. He "takes" what is his. It is in his attitude that I will not be allowed to withhold myself (including my body) from him, that he will just "take" me. Now, as you know, this is a difficult attitude to adopt but...if/when you can get it down, it really DOES begin to take precidence over the housework. Therefore, all the making out and his man-handling me at any time he wants to is all due to his attitude that I "belong" to him and he can take me as he pleases. He earned this right from me over time, but it truly is his right at this point.
Again, in principle, I know this is what she wants. Even now, I have blanket permission to 'take' her when I like (within common sense). In practice, however, the results have been rather mixed. There are times when she's able to surrender and enjoy herself thoroughly. There are times when she'd rather I simply please myself and just carry her along on my ride (without indulging in a ride of her own). BUT there are also times that I call her passive-aggressive stance. She doesn't use her safe-word, but she doesn't participate either; she submits, but doesn't surrender; and since I refuse to make love to a 'blow-up doll' wife, I halt such encounters quickly.
The bottom line is, we both still have a lot of healing to do, before such a sex-life will unfold for us. We're working towards it, but BOTH of our sexual confidences are still flagging after 20 years of rejection and hurt feelings. You, at least, had someone sexually healthy to help you stand up --> ours is a case of two cripples trying to help each other stand up.
To top everything else off, we had a rather lousy session with the therapist today. My wife seemed to be hitting every button that she could with me, in order to deflect attention off of herself. It's a common pattern. If she expresses some complaint about me, I'll acknowledge it and we'll discuss it, but if I express some complaint about her, she counter-complains and shifts the issue back to me as quickly as possible.
Ah well, progress IS being made -- I just hate the one-step-back parts of it.
./end[rant]
-- B.
Last edited by Bagheera; 08/12/0808:35 PM.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
Baggy, you said: "Again, in principle, I know this is what she wants. Even now, I have blanket permission to 'take' her when I like (within common sense). In practice, however, the results have been rather mixed."
In this paragraph, you seem to be talking about sex. But I was talking about the making out, the kisses, the groping.
In my relationship, no, he does not have the right to take me for sex, he has to still check with me, seduce me, etc. But to grope me, kiss me, get some straight up making out time...that is what he has the right, too.
To be honest with you, I hear a tiny bit of a cop-out in your response. Yes I do realize you two are the blind leading the blind...but...we are only talking about one stolen kiss to get off the ground here.
I will attribute your mini-cop-out to the exhaustion from the vacation and what you consider a step-backward-therapy session...but don't linger in that cop-out mode for long, darling. Take her by the back of the neck and drop that kiss upon her. I don't care if she does fight you on it, remind her that she is YOURS.
That is the biggest part of the dynamic that really truly works on a woman, Baggy. To know that I belong to him is such a huge turn on....
Just so you know...I was protesting these things with him at first too, and he had to go through quite a struggle to "earn" the right to take me (for a kiss, not sex) at any time. We did not just slip into this pattern right away. He had to peel away all the bad stuff that was still stuck to me from my past. So please do think about it all a bit more....and hang in there.
