Is the answer blowing in the wind?

[Trixi]

Apologies in advance for length. Here's the link to my last thread: "Trixi going on long trip in car with H"
I arrived at H's house first thing Wed morning to take SS (with H riding along) to rehab. On the way to the house, I heard that the pass we needed to take was closed, so we decided to go a couple hours out of the way and use a different pass over the mountains. 20 miles down that highway and we were turned around because there had been mudslides. Long story short--torrential rains and melting snow was creating disaster areas and the 2.5 hour trip turned into a 8 hour trip. We had to travel to a pass out of state and then come back up on the other side of our mountains.

SS FINALLY told H that he couldn't stand RM. And that it felt like he was "picking" RM over him. Lots of tears from SS. H was initially VERY defensive. Sort of accusatory towards me "How come you never said anything about RM until Mama is in the car?!?" (The implication that SS doesn't have these feelings--that he is passing along MY feelings.) Anyway, H said he felt ambushed and persecuted by the two of us and now he was "trapped" in the car. He got angry; lobbed some doozies at SS. SS lobbed 'em back. I cried. Things got very tense.

Finally, H seemed to really "get" what SS was saying. He didn't say that RM would be immediately kicked out, but he did say that dramatic changes would be happening in the house. SS plans to go to a sober-living house, anyway, so now there isn't really a "crisis" to deal with RM. H had to admit that RM wasn't treating SS well...but he also had lots of excuses and minimizing statements. ie "Well, you know, RM is a real a$$hole. haha. That's just how he is, you just have to ignore him. haha." Sigh. One thing I know about H, he does consider what is said to him, even if initially it looks like he doesn't.

Having said that, H plans to quit smoking within the next week, and along with that quit drinking and smoking pot, too. So, RM will have to take his smoking outdoors or just quit himself. (Which is what H is suggesting.) H is sort of dependent on RM until March 10th when he gets his license back, so he doesn't want to upset the applecart too much. I said "If RM stole from you, wouldn't you kick him out and find another way to work?" H agreed that he would, but since that's not the case....

Good drop off at rehab for SS. H and I will go back to visit the weekend of the 17th. They have some family videos for us to watch; we'll get to sit in on a group session; and of course, we'll get to visit with SS and see how he is doing. I'm proud of SS- he has really fought for this.

After drop off it was 5:30pm and we hadn't eaten. (Keep in mind, we left at 8:30 in the morning.) So, we decided driving the long way around that night was not going to work and got a hotel room and went to dinner. Our hope was the major pass would be open by the morning, but if not, we would just take the 8 hour drive route.

H and I got in a big fight over RM. I called him out on picking RM over son- how I would never forget when he said he *would* pick RM over his son. He clarified and said he meant it's easier to live with RM and that son is disrespectful and hard to live with. Not that he was truly picking RM over son. :|

I'll own up to the following-- I drank WAY too much that night. I was tired, I was overwhelmed with emotions on so many fronts... we went to dinner and I had a drink. (That's not where I drank too much.) Then we went to the store to get some toiletries for the overnight stay and we got a bottle of wine and some treats. We went back to the hotel room where we argued some, talked some, drink the bottle of wine. So, of course, I failed miserably in "holding his feet to the fire".

The next day I was exhausted from lack of sleep (bad pillows) and also hung over. I looked and felt terrible. Turns out, the roads were WORSE than the day before and the long way around was no longer an option. I-5 was shut down and there was no detour. All the passes were closed. The only way back across the mountains was a flight. So, we were trapped. We went to wallyworld to get a change of clothes and more toiletries. H was fawning all over me; he was very sweet and attentive. Kept saying that he was happy to "take care" of me. I was happy to accept.

The extra time was good. He took care of me, I got some sleep by having my head on his chest while he rubbed me and kissed my forhead. We decided there was a 'reason' that we were "forced" to spend more time together because then we could really get some talking done.

*He doesn't like feeling like he "needs" me in his life; he finds me irresistible and that bothers him, too. (After 14 years together, is that really such a bad thing?)

*He knows that if he comes back, it is forever. Right now, because he doesn't feel like he "can't live another day without me", he doesn't think he's got the staying power to make it long term. OTOH, he does find it interesting that I seem to have this 'power' over him. (Not sure how he could ever get the "I can't live another day without her" feeling when we've been together for so long.)

*He feels scared that if he comes back, he will lose a part of himeself--the rebel part. (Which, after he said he was going to quit smoking, drinking, etc I asked what part of the "rebel" would I be squelching? no answer.)

*He said that if he does decide to come back, we should go to retrovaille or some such thing to get help to do things differently. He just isn't ready to say he is ready to come back; thus no need to go to retro. (He brought up retro/"something", not me.)

*He is starting to be able to look at pics from the past (when I was overweight and refusing to go stuff with him) and instead of just feeling angry and resentful, seeing 'missed opportunities' and even smiling a couple of times. (I pointed out that as we move forward there will be more opportunities that will be 'missed' if he doesn't plug back in.)

*We both acknowledged that there were some lonely times in the marriage for both of us. And that we had the potential to be a really awesome family. His thing is that the kids are grown now, so the chance is over. I say, the chance is never gone- and while we can't get their childhood back, we do have a chance to be an extended family and to raise grandkids together. (As opposed to being a fractured family.)

*(I don't like this next part) I said that I thought it meant something that he had gone out there to try to find someone to replace me and that he had been unsuccessful, so that should mean *something*. Not to mention that he had been around the block before we ever met. He agreed that I am not easy to replace. But then also added that he was "in a bad place" when he had gone out on the dates/hooked up with the girls.

*He is very happy with the changes I have made in the last couple years (especially since we separated) because I seem like a whole new person. (That always gets my goat- it feels like I should "thank" him or something. (This coincides for the "it's for the best" mentality that bugs me.))

*He wants to focus on kicking smoking and figuring out *why* he wants to avoid his emotions and/or needs alcohol to access his emotions. He's not even sure what it is. But he anticipates having to deal with a lot of emotions. In dealing with those emotions and making himself healthier, it will be like working on "us" because his head will be clearer.

*He wants to go to counseling to improve R with son and to help him work thru his stuff. He did ask me to drive. I said that if he planned to toss me out, that I didn't want to drive. He said he understood that. He's not sure *what* he will think once his head is clear, so he can't promise anything either way. He's open to re-committing in the future-but not sure if that's what he'll decide.

*Holding his feet to the fire- I "failed miserably". Moving forward he wants us to talk, it's okay to hold hands and go out and do stuff but no more sex. (Go ahead- shoot me for this- I said "So, that was the last time we're gonna have sex?" and he chuckles and says "For a bit, yeah.")

I dropped him off at his house late last night and that was that.

I will say that there is a part of me that is excited for him to quit smoking, etc etc (naturally) but hand in hand with that, I sort of wonder if he isn't trying to groom me to have us be "friends" while we divorce.... He mentioned wanting to go out with DD to just talk and hang out. (Like father/daughter) and that he and SS would continue to go to counseling once SS was done with rehab. IOW, he was wanting to actively work on (re)building a relationship with them. I sort of felt 'jealous' (for lack of a better word) because it's like "okay, well, where is the effort towards rebuilding a relationship with ME?" and the answer was "quitting smoking, etc IS sort of like that, because I will become clearer." ...Huh. okaaaay.
....just felt a bit like I was being ex-communicated from the family. It's probably a stupid way to feel, but what can I say.

I'm exhausted today. A lot to catch up on since my 'half a day' trip turned into a day and half with excessive driving and a lot of emotional upheaval. Plus how confused I feel when he says I am irresistible to him, he loves me, feels like he needs me in his life, BUT.... I flipping hate that BUT part. I DO understand that he wants to be absolutely sure before he recommits...how do we get there? Is it *really* by quitting smoking? Is the answer going to blow thru his front door?

[NikB]

WOW Trixi what a long trip that turned out to be! No wonder it took so long for us to finally get an update.

I hate to say this but I am not surprised - at all - by any of what happened in terms of your conversations. More.of.the.same. LOTS.more.of.the.same. Boy is he good at getting that hook lodged deeply in your throat.

I had hoped you'd do a 180 and stick to your guns this time. Not necessarily "hold his feet to the fire" but act and truly feel as if you're "done" ... making it VERY clear that he's going to have to work hard to win you back, by being distant, detached, friendly but aloof. Instead, he got "don't worry I'll be right here waiting while you decide!" Granted, the 180 would have been VERY difficult given the 8 hour car ride and forced overnight stay... so I can see why that didn't happen... but did you even consider trying it?

I wonder what his reaction might have been, and what your self-respect level might have done, if you had booked your own hotel room instead of booking one together - and acted as if it was totally normal to do so and have the attitude that anything ELSE would have been strange. It would have been pretty powerful, I bet.

Moving forward he wants us to talk, it's okay to hold hands and go out and do stuff ...

<<swoon>> oh, the romance!!

"It's okay to hold hands"

Are you kidding me ?!?!?!

[Sara]

You should move away from him. The further you are from home, the nicer he treats you. The closer to home, the more he reverts back to his need for independence. You won't get what you want as long as you are in the same town.

[AnewAmy]

(((((Trixie)))))

Glad you made it home through that mess! I see they finally opened I-5 this afternoon. I wondered if that's why we hadn't heard from you. I have an employee who needed to get there today and we couldn't find a route from the south to get there!

I'm praying that you find the strength to be strong for you. I know being "trapped" with your H for longer than you expected was hard and it wasn't something you could really prepare for. NikiB has stated it much better than I ever could; however, MHO, it doesn't matter what he wants. You deserve much more than he is capable of giving you right now. You need to back away, let him pursue you, woo you. YOU are the prize to be won here, not the other way around.

[Trixi]

Granted, the 180 would have been VERY difficult given the 8 hour car ride and forced overnight stay... so I can see why that didn't happen... but did you even consider trying it?

We did consider trying it for about 2 seconds. The car ride down had been awful; windshield wipers full blast, hydro-planing, trucks drifting into my lane--by the time we made it to the rehab place I was a ball of nerves. I never could immediately have done the trip back. Even under good conditions, it would have been a bit of a stretch, but with the weather conditions..ugh!

I wonder what his reaction might have been, and what your self-respect level might have done, if you had booked your own hotel room instead of booking one together - and acted as if it was totally normal to do so and have the attitude that anything ELSE would have been strange. It would have been pretty powerful, I bet.

Yes, that's true. I guess I felt like we had made some headway in our convos (not a lot of headway, but a smidge)....I guess it was the same tune, just different words.

The stopping smoking/drinking/etc is new. (Previously he had no interest AT ALL in stopping.) Also, dropping some of the resentment and anger is new. Saying 'no sex' is new. Going to counseling is new. (Adding that I recognize he has not yet *done* these things with the exception of starting to let go of the anger and resentment. However, even speaking of such things is all new.)

Time will tell. By the middle of February I will know if he has stopped smoking (for a period of time) and if he is going to counseling.

You won't get what you want as long as you are in the same town.

LOL- that's funny in a sad way. :|

[NikB]

We did consider trying it for about 2 seconds.

Nooo I didn't mean driving back. That would have been nuts, sounds like! I meant trying the "Game Over" 180.

The stopping smoking/drinking/etc is new. (Previously he had no interest AT ALL in stopping.) Also, dropping some of the resentment and anger is new. Saying 'no sex' is new. Going to counseling is new. (Adding that I recognize he has not yet *done* these things with the exception of starting to let go of the anger and resentment. However, even speaking of such things is all new.)

True, I guess... though like you I'll believe it when I see it.

What isn't new and is the part that struck me:
- He's doing what it takes to keep you hooked
- He's practically emotionally abusing you with his "indecision" (and, you're continuing to allow it)
- You're not valuing yourself
- He's not "winning" you - he doesn't have to
- You're letting yourself (continue to) be strung along by words

sorry

Like Amy said - it doesn't matter what he wants! It's time to think about what YOU want.

Do YOU want an R where the other person "guesses it's OK" if you hold their hand?????

[Trixi]

Thanks for checking in ANewAmy. That's a surprise that I-5 is already opened- yesterday they said 4-5 days. My drive last night was a over 4 hours (as opposed to the other pass which would be 2.5hrs.) TONS of trucks on the road.

You deserve much more than he is capable of giving you right now. You need to back away, let him pursue you, woo you. YOU are the prize to be won here, not the other way around.

When he was 'taking care of me', I did feel prized, treasured. I had wandered around the clothing section and nothing popped out at me. I was feeling sick and cranky and he comes up with a cart and asks if I found anything to which I said "No. There's nothing to wear here and I'm mad." He said "Oh 'nickname', I'll find you something. You need to feel comfy." And he did find something for me. And picked up lotion to rub my feet...

THAT is the problem, right there. He DOES make me feel special and woo'd, on occassion. When I was laying next to him snuggled up into his arm pit (you know what I mean), and he was looking down at me, I could *see* that he loves me. When he goes ga-ga over something I created; when he brags about how smart (or whatever) I am; when he reaches for my hand while we're driving somewhere; when he brushes the hair away from my face... all these things make me feel loved. It's the other crap that confuses things.

[Sara]

Trixi,

He rattled off a good list of new year's resolutions, and like everyone else, he isn't going to do any of them. If he wanted to stop smoking the time to do it was when SS was there and begged him to stop smoking marijuana in front of him. He is hooked on all that stuff. Addicts don't stop. they just say they will. And my guess is that RM is his dealer. That's why RM is more important than anyone else in his life. I mean it. Get away from him. If you run he will chase you. If you stay, he will continue to treat you like dirt.

[AnewAmy]

I was surprised it was open already too. Was it last year or the year before it flooded? Remember part of the road was washed away. I wasn't expecting it to open for a few more days. But the WDOT site says it's now open.

I know he makes you feel special *at times*. It's like Niki says, he gives you just enough to hook you again. He isn't really and truly wooing you or pursuing you. He isn't chasing you or banging at your door. He's giving you just enough crumbs to keep you dangling from his hook.

I think this right here says it all:

THAT is the problem, right there. He DOES make me feel special and woo'd, on occassion.

Do you really want/deserve to be treated this way only on occassion?

Sara's made some good points also. His list to you does seem more like a New Year's Resolution. My first husband was an addict. He was addicted to pot, at least for the first few years. And that was always more important than the kids or me. I know from experience that he will say whatever it takes to keep you dangling. This way he gets a little of everything he wants.

Trixi - you are a strong and capable woman.


Amy

[NikB]

Sara - your assessment of the RM (his dealer) was about what I thought, too. My guess is that's why the "other" band members aren't as important to him, too.

I DO think it's possible for addicts to stop - but only when they really, truly, deeply want it and are committed to it. I have a good friend who was a drug addict and alcoholic for many years. She just celebrated her 11th year of sobriety (and I believe has been a drug/alcohol counselor for about 6 years now).

Now, that said, Trixi I think your H was just saying whatever he thought you might need to hear at the moment. In any case, I seriously doubt he's going to be able to quit with the housing situation the way it is. Quitting is hard enough, having it in your face every day while trying to quit? No way. If in 3 weeks the RM is gone, you've personally taken him to IC appointments, there's no drugs, alcohol, or cigarettes in the house - well, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong!

On the IC, I say you personally taking him because it wouldn't surprise me AT ALL for him to lie to you and say he had someone else take him.

I actually really like Sara's idea (and I don't think she was kidding!).

Barring that... I think TRULY dropping the rope and moving on without him is your best bet, at least for right now. Aloof, polite, friendly but distant - that's really what I'd recommend. Treat him like an old neighbor you ran into in the grocery store or something. If in 6 months he's clean, sober, AND pursues you - bonus!!

I'm curious - I know exactly when "feet to the fire" went to "waiting by the door" and could have predicted that.

When did "Game over" become "feet to the fire" though? And why?