For whomever it may help or whatever it is worth, I failed my ex-h on every item on that list I wrote. I have since discovered and understood this, and now understand why he lost his love for me. Or rather, I squashed his love.
This time (getting married again soon) I follow this list to a T and I will never misunderstand his needs the way I have in the past.
My fiance loves how I love him, how I understand his needs, and responds in kind by meeting mine.
So much wish I could go back in time and talk to my younger self and say "you know NOTHING about men and keeping a man happy....LEARN".
Rather than assuming that we know what men want, I was hoping that the guys on here would tell us what they want in a woman. It would be a good learning experience for us to see the collective response.
I agree that it is important for each of us, male or female, to know thyself. Doing work on ourselves can only help us to bring out the best in each other.
Ok, I'll throw my partial list out there later today. It's going to take a while to think thru. But as I stated in an earlier post it's all individual. We may find some major themes but expect a lot of exceptions.
"My actions are my only true belongings. I cannot escape the consequences of my actions. My actions are the ground upon which I stand." Thich Nhat Hanh
Are we talking about "Evolved Men" or men in general?
In fact, we're not supposed to be talking about men at all.
I challenged the Man Up promoters to define what they consider to be the characteristics of a "proper" or "correct" woman. The analog to Strong, Masculine, etc.
So far, not so many takers. Because it's dangerous, you see? Who wants to step up and say, "Ladies, your husbands left you because you're not "woman" enough?"
Not me, brother. But note that such a sentence would be, by symmetry, the perfect analog to "Gents, your wives left you because you weren't man enough." Which is, let's face it, the Cliff's Notes version of the story promoted by the Man Up crowd.
I'll take that challenge ;-) - working from home today so give me a few minutes and I'll come up with a few honest reasons why men would leave their women. In an online forum where anonymity is a given, I think we can all afford to be blatantly honest.
Honesty, good trait for any man to have - being honest means you have courage.
I meant to acknowledge what you said. I agree with you. It will be different for everyone. I think that it might change as you mature.
I also wonder about something... You know those people who always seem to be attracted to the same type of person that is "bad for them"? Over and over and over again. I wonder if those people would describe the "bad for them" type of person, or something different. Just a random thought.
Caveat: I think learning What Men Want/Should Be (or What Women Want/Should Be) can hamstring you just as terribly as not knowing a blessed thing. Learning What Your Partner Wants and not plastering a predigested list of sexist and/or culturally-determined expectations over his or her unique self seems like that only possible way. Maybe the shorthand works for some, but certainly not all, and if you *think* you know, it can really get in the way.
Excellent Spouse and I had a loooooong discussion about this this AM and he came up with a compelling metaphor .... he compared the proper way to learn about another person with priming a painted wall. You want to get it back as close to a neutral color as you can so the new paint will go on true. Same with getting to know a person ... neutralize to the best of your ability any preconceptions you have about what their gender, race, age, size, education level, religious or political persuasion "is" ... and you'll stand a much better chance of actually being able to process input accurately to determine their true nature (and true desires).
That said, I asked him for his thoughts on, at least, what HE wants in a woman. As follows, to the best of my recollection:
1. Confidence. Not needing to be constantly propped up or reassured. The ability to freely explore and manifest (including, dress for) a wide variety of roles as appropriate (sex kitten, caretaker, gardener, cougar, partner-in-crime, intellectual jousting partner) without feeling like her identity is dependent upon/constrained to reside longterm in any of the above roles. This would include the ability and willingness to bring her own sexuality to the table with confidence, not depend on the man for all pursuit/initiation.
2. An outgrowth of the above, someone who is willing to change, grow, and be open to new experiences/interests. (The man just wants a broad; giggle) This includes classic Schnarchian differentiation in that his ideal partner wouldn't presssure him to believe/behave in lockstep with her. (ETA: or feel like she must believe/behave the same as him.)
3. Serenity. He spoke of this in context of having worked with people who used to live in war zones. So, knowing what's important and what's not .... when it's time to panic (rarely in the daily grind) and when you just roll with the punches. He also spoke of wanting to live with someone who has "chosen to be peaceful".
4. Respectful speech/tone. Not subservience, merely the opposite of that horrible nagging/whining tone (you all know what he means), or anything that vibes infantilization.
5. More narrowly, in the "attraction" category: Confidence as manifested in how a woman carries herself/body language, a little bit o' hipsway, a vibe that says, "Yes I am a sex object. And????". A "feminine" high pitched voice ... not in an affected way, but not gruff, aggressive, etc. (this was more in a sexual/attraction context than for everyday use). A flirtatious, teasey-taunty'catch me if you can' vibe to engage the chase instinct. But he also mentioned specifically that he likes to be pursued/treated like an object of desire too. (My own observation: prototypically-feminine clothing (skirts, heels, perfume etc) = E-ffective.)
6. This sounds, in fact, a bit Deidaesque, but I dug it. I guess you can sell anything if you've got the biceps for it (Bad Jennifer No Feminist Doughnut). Anyhow ..... he said, roughly, "I am a wild wolf. I'll come to your door and want to spend time with you and sit by the fire and bring you prey and maybe even chase a frisbee ... but don't try to make me your lapdog, or become mine. Respect the wolf." What I took from that was, respect his Otherness. His woman shouldn't get TOO comfortable to where she begins, however unconsciously, to treat him like an adjunct or appendage to her own life, a domestic animal who can/should be trained to enact a desired role without reference to his true nature or desires. Respect the wolf. It is his will to live with you, but don't get complacent/cocky/entitled.
7. This brings me full circle to my take on What Women Should, etc. Appreciation. Honest gratitude, and the sincere voicing of same, for whatever accomplishments/joys/provisions her man happens to bring into her life whether in the role of father, provider, lover, friend, handyman, jester, etc. That requires a disposition to notice said benefits, and a willingness to articulate them.
Is that even vaguely what you had in mind, SP?
Last edited by Kettricken; 07/17/0907:17 PM.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
@Lucky - "The bad for them kind of person"- Yeah. At this point O'dog doesn't need a "caretaker" but someone who will enhance differentiation. Play and encouragement = good. Criticism = bad. I think I understood this when reading both "Delivered from Distraction" - Hallowell (ADHD - people tend to pair up with caretakers who become resentful, angry, schoolmarms), and "Passionate Marriage", Schnarch.
This reads too much like a personal ad but here goes:
Total understanding of one another - Not expected (dare say impossible) but supportive.
Intimacy - Knows what she's got. Knows how to use it. Not afraid to "take the wheel" once in a while. I think we should read Ch 10 of Schnarch again...
Thoughtful
Playful
Smart
Worldly view - Important. "It's all good."
Rather backpack thru Costa Rica than sit around doing nothing at a high-dollar resort.
O'dogs self time - Important.
Your self time - Important.
Argumentative - Maybe, but understanding always. Agree to disagree.
Moods - Yes, we have them. Yes we struggle. It's Ok. We take our downtime then come back when ready.
Bitchiness and pecking - Only to the person working at the airport ticket counter.
Admiration - sure but "encouragement" is better.
Likes to play games? Like Jenga, writing innuendos with FridgeFun magnets, and Mini-Golf - Yes, but "Silent Treatment" and "Guess Who I am Today" - No
Recurrent-depression and/or ADHD preferred. A better match for O'dog.
Silk, cotton, wool? - No. Cool-Max, Gore Tex, and Polar-Fleece - Yes!
No full-time Princesses. The "Oh help me fair prince! I can't figure out how to use the gas station pump thingie and my car is on E" is cute sometimes but seriously a W who is confident and who can take care of herself is sexy...
....O'dog will still open the car door for you on Saturday night. Give me that smile back. Oh yeah...!
Don't be afraid to get your feet dirty once in a while. O'dog thinks a W who crashes her bike into the weeds, gets up, throws the chain back on, and keeps riding is sooooo....oh, don't get me started.
Kids - Play with them. Have fun. Remember to take time for us too.
Last edited by orangedog; 07/17/0907:28 PM.
"My actions are my only true belongings. I cannot escape the consequences of my actions. My actions are the ground upon which I stand." Thich Nhat Hanh
Excellent Spouse...came up with a compelling metaphor .... he compared the proper way to learn about another person with priming a painted wall. You want to get it back as close to a neutral color as you can so the new paint will go on true. Same with getting to know a person ... neutralize to the best of your ability any preconceptions... and you'll stand a much better chance of actually being able to process input accurately to determine their true nature (and true desires).
Daaaaaaaagggg, @Kettricken! Excellent Spouse rocks! And not just because I'm painting the kitchen this weekend.
This notion is Most Excellent and my heartiest kudos to Most Excellent Spouse.
I will pass your kudos along to Most (upping the ante, eh, S?) Excellent Spouse.
Re: Embrace The Suck. How quickly these things bleed into common usage ... I had occasion to say it to Himself this morning. He was bemoaning an oversight he made in a design and soliciting my input on how best to frame it for his team. I concurred that he would be better served by presenting it as an additional insight to improve the processing rather than as an error on his part. Then I had the rare pleasure of pointing out the irony inherent in his attitude: he was castigating himself for his inability to refrain from judging himself insufficient (read: a failure) because his design didn't include every consideration *perfectly* from the get-go. IOW, he was busting himself for being imperfect in his pursuit of renouncing perfectionism. Well, we thought it was funny. That's when I said, Embrace the Suck. Digression ends.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
Concur absolutely with (Most) Excellent Spouse Himself on #s 1-4, especially #s 1 and 2.
90% concur on #5 -- high-pitched voices kind of bug me.
#6 -- just threw up in my mouth a little bit there. But I'm sure it was smashing in the context of your relationship. I tend to like to avoid anthropomorphizing metaphors. Too much exposure at a young age, perhaps, to AM radio's heavy rotation of Rick Dees' "Disco Duck."
