I'm having trouble getting to sleep, so I came here. I've been with my guy for 7.5 years, and in the past 18 months or so, our sex life has seriously dwindled.
He tells me he loves me, and his behavior is very loving. I've asked him about the no-sex thing - is it my weight, my looks, another woman, what? He says "no" to all those things.
Two things that are part of the mix:
1) We have 2 cats and he spoils them insanely. About 2 years ago, they had a horrible fight with each other, and we really don't like to leave them alone together w/o supervision. He has done a lot of good work re-training the cats to be calm around each other.
He says that the cats are the reason why our sex life has gone downhill - we don't have enough rooms to separate them AND have privacy for LM. I don't know....I love the cats dearly, but yanno, they're CATS, not human kids. He's so besotted with them that I'm actually glad we don't have any human kids. If we had kids, he'd probably be so paternal that he'd forget me entirely.
2) When we had been together about 3.5 years, I went back to grad school. I finished my degree and found a job I really love, about 2 years ago. The pay isn't great but the benefits are solid, plus I really enjoy the work - this is the first job I've ever had that I actually like. However, it is a pretty demanding job, and I know he doesn't like the fact that I work a lot of hours. I've gotten better about this in the past year - I know it was a problem that I was working late a lot, but he and I talked about it and I really have made some strides. However, I can't help feeling that somehow, he resents my job. I really don't get that. He's not the old-fashioned kind of man who doesn't want a woman to have a real career; he was very supportive while I was in school. His first wife didn't work at all, and he didn't like that. I just don't understand this.
We haven't had sex since June 21 - we were out of town at the beach. We can't afford to go away and get hotel rooms too often. I just got back from a trip out of town to visit my best friend from college. I was really hoping that "absence would make the heart grow fonder", and before I left, he had dropped hints that we might have sex when I returned. But no. I got the sweet, loving, affectionate greeting, but no lust, desire, or sex.
That's another thing that bugs me - he'll drop hints, he'll talk suggestively about "maybe tonight" - and then nothing happens.
I still love him; I don't want to split up and I don't want to cheat. It's true I could stand to lose about 25 lbs., but I started Weight Watchers almost a month ago and am beginning to see results. Plus, he keeps telling me, "You don't have to lose weight", and "I love you the way you are."
I'm getting so I just don't believe him any more when he makes hints about sex. Yeah, right - I'll believe it when I see he has an erection and it's out of his pants.
He says that the cats are the reason why our sex life has gone downhill - we don't have enough rooms to separate them AND have privacy for LM.
You're saying that the two of you can't make love with a *pet* in the same room with you? Is this because of modesty concerns? or will the cat not leave you alone (i.e. pester you for attention)?
If the former, I suppose it might feel a little awkward the first time or two with a cat or a dog in the room with you, but in my extensive experience -- we've generally always had a dog curled up on the floor beside the bed, and have often had a cat curled up on the corner of the bed -- the animals don't really care or pay that much attention...it's all 'natural' and fine to them if alpha-male takes alpha-female within their little family "pack" or "pride." They aren't going to critique you are talk about it to their friends, either.
If the latter, then some cat training is in order...as much as you can actually train a cat, anyway. If you are consistent and firm about not permitting the cats to come begging for affection and attention while 'Mom' and 'Dad' are otherwise engaged with each other, they'll take the hint quickly enough. You said that your man spoils them -- is he able to be firm and set boundaries for them?
With regard to your body image and weight concerns, I'm going to repeat something I said to LuckyGirl some months ago:
Girl -- as the old saying goes:
"When you're the only naked woman in the room, to him you're worth a million bucks."
When the woman he loves displays herself sexually for a man, he sees her beauty and wonderful female sexuality only. Her eyes, her smile, her hair, her lucious curves, her legs...AND NO FLAWS. You've heard of 'beer goggles'? Well, in a man, 'arousal goggles' are even better!
You women are far, FAR too hard on yourselves. Learn to see yourself through your man's eyes.
Your man is right in that there is probably something else going on here. Is it just cat troubles? I have a hard time with that one, but timeline fits somewhat. If you would, tell us about the early stages of your relationship, from the intimacy and sexual point of view. What are yours and his personal histories in that regard? I think you may need to dig a little deeper here.
-- Bagheera
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
You're saying that the two of you can't make love with a *pet* in the same room with you? Is this because of modesty concerns? or will the cat not leave you alone (i.e. pester you for attention)?
(snippage)
If the latter, then some cat training is in order...as much as you can actually train a cat, anyway. If you are consistent and firm about not permitting the cats to come begging for affection and attention while 'Mom' and 'Dad' are otherwise engaged with each other, they'll take the hint quickly enough. You said that your man spoils them -- is he able to be firm and set boundaries for them?
Actually, this has gotten better. Like I said, although he's more obsessive and besotted about the cats than I am, he's also very good with them - as far as anybody can train a cat, he can. He's done amazing work in the past 2 years getting the two of them to accept each other again.
This morning, we made an attempt to "get it on" and the cat in the bedroom left us alone. So, he was okay, the cat was okay, and I was okay....then the alarm clock rang. @#%$!
Originally Posted By: Bagheera
With regard to your body image and weight concerns, I'm going to repeat something I said to LuckyGirl some months ago:
Girl -- as the old saying goes:
"When you're the only naked woman in the room, to him you're worth a million bucks."
When the woman he loves displays herself sexually for a man, he sees her beauty and wonderful female sexuality only. Her eyes, her smile, her hair, her lucious curves, her legs...AND NO FLAWS. You've heard of 'beer goggles'? Well, in a man, 'arousal goggles' are even better!
You women are far, FAR too hard on yourselves. Learn to see yourself through your man's eyes.
Thank you, Bagheera. It hurts, but we women really do hate our bodies and our looks. That's so sad, bcs really, there are very few people out there that look completely terrible. Almost every person on earth has at least one beautiful feature, and most people have more than one. Why can't we see the good in ourselves? (looks, and personality)
Originally Posted By: Bagheera
Your man is right in that there is probably something else going on here. Is it just cat troubles? I have a hard time with that one, but timeline fits somewhat. If you would, tell us about the early stages of your relationship, from the intimacy and sexual point of view. What are yours and his personal histories in that regard? I think you may need to dig a little deeper here.
-- Bagheera
In the early stages, we took it kind of slow. We were both fairly recently divorced and I in particular was very gun-shy. I didn't want to jump into sex right away. We met online through Match.com, started e-mailing in November 2001, met IRL in December 2001, and hit it off immediately. We progressed through the stages of physical intimacy and ended up having intercourse for the first time on Valentine's Day 2002.
In June of 2002, I had to move about 100 miles away for a job. For the next 2 years, we spent every weekend together - we took turns visiting each other. Mad sex every Friday night! During that time, his mother died - this was 5.5 years ago, and as you can imagine, it was a deep hurt for him. I gave him some emotional space when he needed it, but we were always still linked.
In spring 2004, he asked me to move in with him, and I agreed to do this. We'd been together for almost 2.5 years by then. I found a job in the town where we now live (where we first met and where he'd lived all along) and we moved in together. And until 2 years ago, it was idyllic. Then, like I said, 2 things happened: 1) the huge cat fight and 2) a new job for me, which was really soaking up a lot of my time and energy.
This man would be perfect if only we had sex more often! Sometimes I think I should just shut up and be glad things are good in the other areas. My man is very sensitive (both in his own feelings, and to others' feelings.) He can read me like a book. Sometimes I wish he'd be more adventurous, but it's not a deal-breaker. My ex-husband was much more un-adventurous. Ironically enough, my ex wanted sex more often than I did. Sometimes I wonder if this situation now is my karmic punishment for not wanting sex w/ my ex when I was married to him.
I was married for about 6 years to an emotionally immature guy with whom I didn't have much in common. I take full responsibility for making the mistake of marrying him in the first place. That was my first real sin against him, and maybe the worst one.
My man was married for longer, something like 12 or 13 years. His wife was a stay-at-home wife (and they had no kids!) and he believes she may have been mentally ill. He says that her parents abused her when she was a kid. He also said that there was hardly any sex in their marriage. I think he felt guilty about leaving her, especially since she was so dependent on him, but he just couldn't stand it any more. I think he likes it that I'm more independent - I've always worked, I have friends, etc.
Anyway, like I said, we took the sex slow to begin with, but it was very good from Feb. 2001 to August or Sept. of 2007. And we have talked about it some. The most recent time was this morning, after our failed attempt that was ruined by the alarm clock. Unfortunately, I said something sarcastic. He said, "We'll try again tonight," and I said, "Yeah, I'll believe that when I see it."
I apologized, and we talked about it. He said that I need to be more aggressive about approaching him - when we're hanging out in the living room after dinner, I could suggest to him that we go in the bedroom. This is good to know, bcs I've been afraid to pursue him too much. (I had traditional parents who taught me that the man always has to be the pursuer, in everything. It took forever for me to even be able to call a guy on the phone!)
Sorry this is getting so long. It just feels so good to be able to tell somebody who seems to understand! I did talk about it with my college friend this weekend, but she has the opposite problem - her husband wants it more than she does!
I'm hoping that LuckyGirl or DanceQueen will chime in here soon and give you their female perspectives, but I'll poke my male nose in on a few things you've mentioned.
First; I think you should trust your instincts here:
Originally Posted By: Margali
However, it is a pretty demanding job, and I know he doesn't like the fact that I work a lot of hours. I've gotten better about this in the past year - I know it was a problem that I was working late a lot, but he and I talked about it and I really have made some strides. However, I can't help feeling that somehow, he resents my job. I really don't get that.
I don't think it's any kind of "old fashioned" urge to keep his wife subordinate to him or dependent upon him --> instead, I *suspect* that it may be the exact same complaint that wives often have when their husbands become overly absorbed with their careers. These guys become so absorbed in their work, that they stop investing time, effort, and energy into their relationship with their wives and children. Your man probably feels like you've pulled away from him, and that you no longer invest in the relationship as much. That is, that he's been swapped out of your number one slot in favor of something else, something newer. Note that this may be more of an EMOTIONAL response on his part, a feeling, and not so much based upon the facts --> despite being a modern male who will tell himself that he's being silly in thinking so, that feeling of being passed aside may still be there. He may even feel bit embarassed or ashamed about feeling "jealous" over your job (he really *wants* to feel supportive instead), and therefore has used the "cat fight" as a cover.
This is an issue that can be worked out with some deep discussions between te two of you, along with a greater effort on both of your parts to keep the relationship as a high priority in your lives -- it takes work and extra effort, especially when lives get busier.
Second, in regards to this:
Originally Posted By: Margali
The most recent time was this morning, after our failed attempt that was ruined by the alarm clock. Unfortunately, I said something sarcastic. He said, "We'll try again tonight," and I said, "Yeah, I'll believe that when I see it."
The FASTEST way to shut a man down, and cause him to clam up and withdraw from you is to openly complain, criticize, and display this kind of sarcasm (we men call it "nagging"). He'll retreat in self-defense into the proverbial man-cave, and you could scream and throw things, and he won't hear a word. I'm glad that you recognized the mistake and apologized, but it will serve you better if you can bite your tongue when you are frustrated and use more constructive approaches that he'll actually respond to.
And thirdly, you wrote:
Quote:
He said that I need to be more aggressive about approaching him - when we're hanging out in the living room after dinner, I could suggest to him that we go in the bedroom. This is good to know, bcs I've been afraid to pursue him too much.
Great! He's shown you that he's more open than you may have thought to being approached by you sexually: take advantage of it! Men do absolutely love it when their woman initiates.
However, this does beg the question from me: how well does HE do at romancing and seducing *you* anymore? Has he continued The Chase of boy pursues girl with you (something women generally NEVER tire of ), or has he fallen into the common male trap of figuring that now that he's caught the girl, his chasing days are over? BZzzzttt! Wrong answer if that's the case, and a lesson that you may have to teach him, with time.
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
Sorry it's taken me so long to check the boards. It's been quite a busy summer!
You are getting excellent advice from Bagheera. He is one of our finest.
Your situation has many similarities to mine. I found that when I started down this path, I had to spend quite a bit of time learning about myself through reading and posting here. I learned that I had my own issues with intimacy, and I also got to know myself better with regard to what I want. Reading important books like SSM and Passionate Marriage will help you explore yourself AND articulate your thoughts and desires with your H.
In my particular case, it took several encounters and talks over time, with a final discussion that outlined exactly what I want, what I need, and what is at stake because of what was missing.
Some people "get it" more easily than others, but what is important is your tenacity. Keep learning and keep pushing him on the issue. But do so *carefully,* without coming down on him (which will shut him down) and without making it seem like an obsession or that you're only after your own satisfaction. This is about improving your marriage and your connection -- BOTH of you will live happier lives because of the work you put into this.
Another important point is self care. Do, wear, behave in a way that makes you feel beautiful and sexy, first for YOU, then for him. Your positive energy and positive self image will keep you happier and more open to intimacy with your H.
Those are just a few thoughts for now. I look forward to getting to know you better. I'll help in any way I can.
Hi, Margali. Just one thing. When he says something about ML later, or this afternoon, or whatever, don't wait for him to go ahead with it, take him up on it right then. My H is the original Mr. "Yeah, We Could". I'd say something about we could fool around later, go in the hot tub, sit outside, stand on our heads & whistle Dixie in the middle of the street....and that was his answer. He'd then go about his usual day/evening, probably TV & falling asleep without following through. (he's pretty LD). Then say "Well, you never mentioned it again." So not his fault. Now when he says that I follow up right then. "OK, when you're done cutting the grass, or after dinner? Right now?" Even better, "OK, come get me when you're ready."After all, he's not the one who has to worry about rejection.
So when your guy makes a similar kind of statement, go for it right then. An enthusiastic, fun, remark letting him know you're on it, ready right now, stripping on the spot or something that may sound outrageous to you, but will sure get your point across, "Yes, I really DO want to, right now is fine!" Otherwise he can weasel out & blame it on your lukewarm response. Good luck with this. Jayce
me: 66 H:60 2 adult sons 2 grandsons adult daughter deceased 5/05 me:Part time trainer H: plant suprv.
"I don't think it's any kind of 'old fashioned' urge to keep his wife subordinate to him or dependent upon him --> instead, I *suspect* that it may be the exact same complaint that wives often have when their husbands become overly absorbed with their careers. These guys become so absorbed in their work, that they stop investing time, effort, and energy into their relationship with their wives and children. Your man probably feels like you've pulled away from him, and that you no longer invest in the relationship as much. That is, that he's been swapped out of your number one slot in favor of something else, something newer. Note that this may be more of an EMOTIONAL response on his part, a feeling, and not so much based upon the facts --> despite being a modern male who will tell himself that he's being silly in thinking so, that feeling of being passed aside may still be there. He may even feel bit embarassed or ashamed about feeling 'jealous' over your job (he really *wants* to feel supportive instead), and therefore has used the 'cat fight' as a cover." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This is a great insight, Bagheera. It sounds exactly like the way he would think. (Do you do this for a living?) He is a very modern man, and he also is more aware of the emotional side of life than most men are (he's a Pisces, maybe that's it.) He has deep feelings, and I can easily imagine that he could be hurt and not able to fully express that to me.
As I think I said, I went away for a long weekend to visit my best friend from college, and I had another day off at home after that. I said to him, in the morning before returning to work, "You know, I could really use another day off." He lit up like a Xmas tree!
Today, a day later, he's still making happy sounds about that remark I made.
It's true that for a year now, I've made a determined effort to get home at a reasonable hour at least 3 nights out of 5. (One night I have yoga right after work, and another night it's my turn to work late.)
Last night I was late, but there was a good reason: one of my clients had a crisis. (I'm a social worker and I see people with really terrible problems.) I explained this to him when I got home, and emphasized to him that I no longer work late (un scheduled) just to do paperwork - only for something like this. He replied that this was fine and my staying late to help my client was kind, compassionate, and the right thing to do. And being very kind and compassionate himself, I could see that he understood this and would have done the same thing himself. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bagheera:
"Great! He's shown you that he's more open than you may have thought to being approached by you sexually: take advantage of it! Men do absolutely love it when their woman initiates.
However, this does beg the question from me: how well does HE do at romancing and seducing *you* anymore? Has he continued The Chase of boy pursues girl with you (something women generally NEVER tire of), or has he fallen into the common male trap of figuring that now that he's caught the girl, his chasing days are over? BZzzzttt! Wrong answer if that's the case, and a lesson that you may have to teach him, with time." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ What would be some ways I could do this? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jayce:
"When he says something about ML later, or this afternoon, or whatever, don't wait for him to go ahead with it, take him up on it right then. My H is the original Mr. 'Yeah, We Could'. I'd say something about we could fool around later, go in the hot tub, sit outside, stand on our heads & whistle Dixie in the middle of the street....and that was his answer. He'd then go about his usual day/evening, probably TV & falling asleep without following through. (he's pretty LD). Then say 'Well, you never mentioned it again.' So not his fault. Now when he says that I follow up right then. 'OK, when you're done cutting the grass, or after dinner? Right now?' Even better, 'OK, come get me when you're ready.' After all, he's not the one who has to worry about rejection.
So when your guy makes a similar kind of statement, go for it right then. An enthusiastic, fun, remark letting him know you're on it, ready right now, stripping on the spot or something that may sound outrageous to you, but will sure get your point across, 'Yes, I really DO want to, right now is fine!' Otherwise he can weasel out & blame it on your lukewarm response." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I like this idea. But how does it go along with some of the other ideas? LuckyGirl warned against making it seem like I only care about my own satisfaction. And everybody always warns women against "nagging." That's why I *haven't* been very aggressive about pursuing him. Like I said, I was raised by parents whose minds were stuck in the 1950s, when girls and women couldn't approach men, just say "yes" or "no" to the ones who approached them first. It's taking me much of my lifetime to overcome this, so how do I be more assertive w/o nagging?
And other posters, what do you think of Jayce's idea?
I just wanted to chime in and say a couple of things.
First of all, the fact that your H told you straight up that he would like it if you were more assertive, is really GOOD news. That means that if you do become more assertive, he will likely not only respond, but he will also get more assertive himself, over time.
It seems that maybe you have done too good of a job becoming the girl your parents raised you to be. Unfortunately, "that" girl is too timid for a man to feel very sexual about. You have likely given your H the idea that you aren't that interested in sex, or that you do not want it any more often than you are already doing it. Regardless of talking to him about it before, you probably did not give him the message you thought you gave him, because if your actions are totally non-assertive, then he is going to read your actions more often than the occasional conversation you bring up.
The way to be assertive without nagging is to show him and tell him you want to have sex with him. No man (with a normal sex drive) is going to view you wanting sex with him as "nagging"! Instead, it is going to make him feel desired, which will then trigger his desire. Over time, as you show him your desire for him, he will likely show you his desire for you more! So instead of waiting for him to bring it up again later that night, you just get in bed in a sexy nightie and light candles...and you tell him straight up, "baby, I can't wait to get my arms around you and make magic together".
When Lucky said to make sure you don't make it seem about your own satisfaction, I think what she meant was to make sure he feels desired by you. IE: its not that you "want sex", its that you "want HIM". This should be an easy message to deliver to him, if in fact, you really do want him. You like the way he looks? Tell him. You like how muscular his legs are? Touch them and talk about how sexy they are. You love it when you get to look into his eyes while he's making love to you? Send him an email the day after sex stating this.
To clarify my warning about not making this all about YOUR satisfaction when you gently push and pull back, push and pull back. If you don't push gently, reading the right time and way to approach your H, it could appear that you are hammering away with "I want, I want, I want..." I said long ago that I was afraid that I was like Veruca Salt: I WANT IT NOW! I didn't want to appear as a spoiled brat who was only concerned about getting her own desires taken care of. I wanted to approach OUR intimacy from a higher perspective. I wanted both of us to share our own levels of desire and express intimacy with each other that met each of our specific fantasies. I didn't just want to focus on what I wanted and how I was going to get it. And, I knew if it appeared that way to my H, it certainly wouldn't be a turn on for him. It would put the kind of pressure on him that snuffs out intimacy rather than using a perspective and open mind that inspires intimacy. I hope that helps -- I didn't mean for that point to make you feel stifled in taking action.
Personally, I love Jayce's idea. Typically, in a recovering SSM, both partners have to push themselves outside of their comfort zone in trying new approaches, new ways to initiate, new ways to respond. What's important is that YOU like Jayce's idea and that you want to give it a try. If you're not comfortable or not excited about it, it won't work for either of you. You will likely try all sorts of approaches, and you will notice what works and what doesn't in your particular marriage.
What books are you reading, and in what priority? I think that SSM and Passionate Marriage are going to resonate for you (and for your H if you get to the point of telling him about the books and possibly asking him if he would read some of it.)
A couple of things you can try to do is infuse more passion and affection throughout your days. Send your H sexy texts (as DQ describes) once in a while to let him know how he turns you on. Another idea from Schnarch and DQ: You can initiate more passionate kissing sessions in your day-to-day lives. You can strengthen your connection just through eye contact and passionate kisses... and it wouldn't hurt if it led to more. But, it is also great if it is just left at that. Passion doesn't always have to lead to sex. For your LD partner, it will probably give him less pressure to have more passionate encounters that don't lead to sex at first. Less pressure will increase the odds that he'll be able to get in tune with his desire, and then hopefully come forward without prompting.
Don't give up. Even a small amount of progress within yourself and/or within your marriage will be priceless.
Margali, since H & I have had several (understatement) conversations about his LD, we've covered his tactic of being tentative, indefinite, noncommittal. Gives me the impression he's either hoping I won't take him up on it, or in case I ignore him or turn him down it won't be an actual rejection. Or, as happens, he can say I didn't really mean it, I was just looking for a reaction. Or he's hoping I don't mean it??Aahhhhh. We've had at least 3 conversations about me being a sure thing. And how well I understand feeling rejected.
Although he'd never have dealt with it on his own, he does have concerns about his low D, he also is worried, maybe a bit scared about my state of mind. Responding with "how about now?" works. I'm sorry it didn't dawn on me sooner, but I didn't want him to feel I was doing the pressure-only want you for sex-thing. Tone of voice matters. Hot, funny, whatever. Just not like "well, put up or shut up" challenging.
Let me know how it works if you try it. Jayce
me: 66 H:60 2 adult sons 2 grandsons adult daughter deceased 5/05 me:Part time trainer H: plant suprv.
During that time, his mother died - this was 5.5 years ago, and as you can imagine, it was a deep hurt for him. I gave him some emotional space when he needed it, but we were always still linked.
), or has he fallen into the common male trap of figuring that now that he's caught the girl, his chasing days are over? BZzzzttt! Wrong answer if that's the case, and a lesson that you may have to teach him, with time.