Quite a ways up, @Smiley made some comments that didn’t get a whole lot of play in the subsequent “Wow”-ish dialogue, but which resonated loudly and clearly with me… And, besides, if @A&K can make a cameo appearance, what the heck, I can, too…
Quote:
You made your choice, and you chose {Signore Schmuckatelli}. When you said to him and everyone in your world who knows about him that you just couldn't go without having him available to you - you chose.
Let me put it in the words you used to me to rationalize and justify your affair. You said to him, to your world, and to yourself that your relationship with this "distraction" with whom you'd had the "briefest of one-night-stands" (something so trivial you could hardly remember it, with a person so easy to blow off after he acted like a jerk that it "was like swatting a fly") that relationship was worth eating crow over to publicly acknowledge your desire for a continued connection.
You chose to declare through your actions that that relationship with this man whom you yourself described as "an irrelevance" was worth keeping alive. Your marriage? No, that wasn't worth it. But {Signore}, who'd made you feel so "repulsive" because "he wouldn't even use you for sex?"
Well that must have been an affair to remember.
That choice is your privilege.
But privileges still come with a price. When you chose it you also chose never to know me as anything but the kids' father - and your *sshole ex-husband - again. I have to assume the price is worth it.
This and the follow-up comment, in my book, deserve much more consideration and discussion, because I, too, wonder if others disagree, as I know I couldn’t agree any more…
Quote:
I think it's a fair boundary to say, "Hey, you want to sustain your relationship with the man you cheated on me with and left me and the kids for, that's your right; but it's my right to perceive that as a rather direct slap in the face and not to want to engage with you on anything but the one area of mutual interest we have, which is the kids."
Talk about cake-eating, right? She wants to be able to get together with Signore AND ex-Husband? "I wish we could just get past all this and be close again." Well if wishes were horses, even beggars would ride.
That attitude strikes me as being quite disrespectful -- or do you disagree?
In fact of all the things I’ve lived through in the last couple of years, this is the second-most difficult “angle” to deal with (the first is being witness to the enormous strain and pain this has caused the children, but I don’t want to digress too far). I can get past an affair (or two); I can get past the lies; but, as @Puppy often points out, and as @Smiley comments here, it’s respect, or the lack thereof, that is perhaps the hardest hurdle to overcome. In my sitch, it is manifested exactly as in Smiley’s… My W has made it abundantly clear that she wants to be friends but that she also plans to stay in touch with supposedly “irrelevant” others. Ya know, the affair(s) have nothing to do with why we are getting divorced; it (since she doesn’t consider the EA to have been an A, too) was irrelevant. Okay, BUT, if that’s the case, and you want to be friends (or even friend-y) how is it that I can maintain any self-respect when her words and actions distill to, as @Smiley says, the unmistakable conclusion that an irrelevant relationship is worth keeping alive, but your marriage (and your family) weren’t?!?!?!?!?!? Yes, it is her right to want to choose as she wishes, but I have little to no inclination to want to stay “friends” with someone who takes that stand. One of two things is true: (1) the “irrelevant” OP is in fact irrelevant, in which case cutting them out of one’s life permanently shouldn’t be such a tall order (heck, at least lie about it and don’t flaunt the fact that you plan to stay in touch – you know, kind of like you did when you were having the affair ), or (2) the “irrelevant” OP is not in fact irrelevant, in which case I want to be your BFF because what?
I don’t think this is a matter of “staying above it” as, IMO, by perpetuating the lack of respect (on many different levels) that an affair represents, it cuts to the very heart of why “friend-i-ness” can be an ever-elusive-but-oh-so-altruistic yet, in this case, unpalatable end.
But, getting back to @Smiley’s question: Do others disagree?
New: What a Weekend
H-48 WAW-49 M-22 S-14,9 D-11 EA disc.-11/07 PA disc.-3/08 EA2?-6/08 to ?
How about stopping by for more than cameos? We'd love to have you in the show.
Yes, the post-d friends-thing is difficult. I've described on my own thread (on Surviving the Big D). The she and I have an amicable relationship but even when there's a good exchange it's a tough and sad reminder of the past. I don't email or call about much except the biz of taking care of the kids partly out of emotions mentioned above and partly out of respect for myself.
"My actions are my only true belongings. I cannot escape the consequences of my actions. My actions are the ground upon which I stand." Thich Nhat Hanh
Thing is, you can't "get past" any status quo as long as you're still taking affirmative action to maintain it. The status quo in this instance being an amicable relationship with Signore. Asking you to accept the simultaneity as a "friend" does seem quite disrespectful, given the history. She can ask, but she might not get.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
I don’t think this is a matter of “staying above it” as, IMO, by perpetuating the lack of respect (on many different levels) that an affair represents, it cuts to the very heart of why “friend-i-ness” can be an ever-elusive-but-oh-so-altruistic yet, in this case, unpalatable end.
But, getting back to @Smiley’s question: Do others disagree?
Nope. Sounds like you, and Smiley, hit the proverbial nail on the head.
And, I would throw this out. If we accept as true, that a woman cannot love a man she does not respect (which I do), then why shouldn't the converse be just as true. If my W, then, were having an A (don't think this is involved in my sitch, but I am going with the hypothetical here), there is no doubt my respect for her would be absolute zero. So, how can I love, or more importantly, want to be friends with someone I do not respect?
It strikes me that where a WAS has an issue that engenders a loss of respect from the LBS, it is patently unreasonable for that WAS to expect the LBS to be "friends" with the WAS.
And I think this "friends" issue is something different from forgiveness. Being friends seems to me to be something for the benefit of the WAS, while forgiveness is something the LBS does for the LBS' benefit in order to unburden themselves.
I'm with Alex and Smiley on this one! Absolutely it's a fair boundary.
When my older brother's children were younger, he took them blueberry picking one fine day. My niece was only 2, I think, and although she was being very well-behaved, the owner of the blueberry patch approached my brother, and said "I'm sorry, no one under the age of 5 is allowed in the blueberry patch, that's our policy."
"Why?" asked my brother. "I'm watching her, and she's not causing any trouble."
"I know," said the worker. "But it's just our policy."
"Well, what's the reason BEHIND the policy?" my brother persisted. "Isn't it to prevent MISBEHAVING children, or UNSUPERVISED ones? Like I said, I'm watching her."
"I'm not sure the reason behind the policy, sir -- it's just our policy."
My brother picked up his daughter, and told the attendant "Well then, it's MY policy never to spend my family's money at a place that would have such a policy."
And he handed the guy his basket of picked blueberries, and he left with his family.
For me also there's a bit of Old Skool at work here.
WAW wants something. Some things, I suppose, is more accurate. Okay fine.
Some I'm happy to provide -- good parenting, good communication on the kids' needs. In other words, things that satisfy both a "real" need -- kids' need -- and a need in me -- the need to be a good parent.
Other things? Youse guys know what da unoffishul motto of Big Midwestern City is, right? "What's in it fer me?"
Youse guys know what da unoffishul motto of Big Midwestern City is, right? "What's in it fer me?"
That's the Chicago politicians favorite radio station, WIIFM.
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
And, I would throw this out. If we accept as true, that a woman cannot love a man she does not respect (which I do), then why shouldn't the converse be just as true. If my W, then, were having an A (don't think this is involved in my sitch, but I am going with the hypothetical here), there is no doubt my respect for her would be absolute zero. So, how can I love, or more importantly, want to be friends with someone I do not respect?
It strikes me that where a WAS has an issue that engenders a loss of respect from the LBS, it is patently unreasonable for that WAS to expect the LBS to be "friends" with the WAS.
And I think this "friends" issue is something different from forgiveness. Being friends seems to me to be something for the benefit of the WAS, while forgiveness is something the LBS does for the LBS' benefit in order to unburden themselves.
I need more coffee!!
I had a choice of two responses to all of this:
Yup, Yup, Yup, and more Yup - GIMA do you have anything else I can agree to ;-)
or
"TRUE DAT MOFO!" (which is basically the same thing, agreeing with everything you said except adding some ethnic flavor to the response).
Seriously, all kidding aside (which is incredibly difficult as I love being a smart ass), stuff like this should be posted more often so that it can be "ingrained" (or is it engrained - my spelling is off lately) into people's minds. You not only deal with your specific situation but you have to learn the mechanics behind the relationship and what caused the problems to happen and then test & do things to see what works & what doesn't. Sounds very clinical & boring but hey, what else are you doing with your time other than posting on db.com
Here is an example and I sometimes wonder when people read this if they understand that there are things happening behind the scenes and that they can do things to shift gears and move in a different direction:
If we accept as true, that a woman cannot love a man she does not respect (which I do)
A woman cannot love a man she doesn't respect.
So if we do accept that as being true and you happen to be one of those unlucky blokes with a WAW who doesn't respect you and can't love you. What do you do?
Well why doesn't she respect you? Answer that. Go deep. Be honest, regardless if the answers are ugly & uncomfortable, it's definitely scary but push past those fears, embrace that it is fearful but you still have to do it and once you learn to embrace that fear and still persevere, you will develop more courage & confidence.
A few Questions to ask yourself about why she disrespects you so much: ======================================================================== Were you a doormat? Did she walk all over you? Did she wipe her feet on you? Did she talk poorly to you? Did you let her? Did she argue with you regularly? Did you argue back with her and respond emotionally? Did you give her bad behavior too much attention? Did you train her (ugly word I know but just understand the context) to treat you badly? Did you ever stand up to her when she disrespected you? Did you try but she turned it around and made you feel guilty for standing up for yourself? Did you lead or did you follow her? Did you have opinions of your own or did you always do what she asked you to do even if it was against your wishes or better judgement? Were you abusive? Were you controlling? Were you manipulative? (ie. I did this for you so you have to do this for me, ie. bought you dinner so you owe me sex). Did she raise her voice to you and say hurtful & disrespectful things and did you just stand there and take it or did you stop her and turn your back on her and told her that you wouldn't allow her to disrespect you and that she could talk to you when she was more calm & respectful? Did you put her on a pedestal and tell her that your life was nothing without her? Did you tell her that you would never find another woman like her? Did you value her more than you valued yourself? Did you love her more than you loved yourself? Did you try to buy her love? Were you a wuss and regularly exhibit wussy like behaviors? Were you jealous? Were you insecure? Were you quiet & weak? Did you cry in front of her? Were you lazy or were you ambitious? Were you a lousy lover? Did you give her good sex? Were you too nice? Were you insecure? Were you needy/clingy? Did you have a life? Were you an individual? Did you have your own opinions, likes & dislikes or did you always allow her to choose for you? Were you boring? Did you invest in yourself? Did you value yourself? Did you maintain your appearance? (not for appearance sake alone but more importantly to show that you valued yourself and that you had high value) Did you ever allow her to invest in you? Did you ever allow her to buy you gifts or to treat you or was it the other way around? (I don't need anything but your "love") Did she have to provide for her family more than you did? Did she ever think that without her being the main breadwinner that your family would suffer? Did she take on the role of the main provider and in doing so she was responsible for your security as well as your family's? Did she become more masculine in some ways? Did you become more feminine in some ways? Were you afraid to lose her & afraid that she would leave you? Did she know this? Did you ever establish that you had "walking power"? (that if she didn't stop disrespecting you, you would leave? Hence the terms "Walk Away Husband" and "Left behind Wife", it does happen and it is their wives that pursue them and want them back)
Seriously this list could be much longer but i hope you get the point, there are many ways for the WAW to lose respect for her LBH.
These are all tests. She is testing you. She is testing you constantly. Women test men - don't question it, just accept it. It's a survival instinct that evolution isn't going to wipe out any time soon. She needs to feel secure with her man, a strong man, someone who can stand up to her will be able to stand up for her should the need ever arise. She wants to know if you respect yourself - do you? She wants to know if you're a real man because she wants to be with a real man, if she is having affairs, she is seeking a real man to replace you, she wants a stronger more masculine mate if you aren't it. That's where the sex & love comes in. When you noticed that your sex lives were slowing down: duration, frequency, level of passion and that she was no longer interested in you sexually and you wondered why didn't any of you want to find out why? Asking her wasn't going to get you those answers. When you heard her say "I'm not telling you why, you should already know?" It wasn't about whatever argument you were having at the time, that was just a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself, she was looking for her man and apparently you slowly changing into a less masculine version of yourself and she needed a more masculine version of you. Since she didn't get it, what happened slowly but surely? She started becoming more assertive, more aggressive, less feminine, not as nice, more angry, more argumentative, distant, removed, quiet, less involved, less engaging, starting doing things without you, started going out more, started investing in her appearance (ie. tanning, gym, weight loss, hair, makeup, clothing), started hanging out with new friends, started being happy again but it wasn't because of you: her internal programming was getting her ready to start seeking out another more masculine partner because you weren't it anymore.
I said it before, this all sounds very clinical & maybe even boring (actually I find it extremely fascinating) but there are real reasons why you are where you are and knowing this now, you can do things to turn your situations around. There is a science to this - don't discount this, embrace it, learn it, become a better man, it's not impossible, in fact it's expected.
Right/wrong, left/right, up/down, 256 thousand shades of grey - all as important as the next.
It's never simple.
Oh God. The argument again. You are totally correct. There are two sides to a coin and there are no guarantees. There is no guarantee when you put your quarters on the pool table you actually are going to get the next game. No guarantee when you wave the white flag you won't get shot right between the eyes. No guarantee that you start dating and your spouse will feel any sort of loss or jealousy. They may actually think, "What took them so long to figure 'IT' out." What makes you happy?
You wouldn't climb Mt. Everest for your spouse. You don't go starting to date for your spouse either. That is ridiculous. You do it for yourself to fulfill your need for companionship and growth. Realize, if you are picking up strangers, you are exploring possibilities. If you ask the girl from marketing, who you have been working with for two years, for coffee and she accepts, you are exploring attraction. Possiblilities, exploration, attraction. That is the allure of the mountains.
If you stand at the base of the mountains long enough you notice they never move. But once you start to climb you realize they alive and full of motions, challenges and experience. How long have you been standing still facing the rest of your life? Has your life changed for the better? Are you happy? If you desire to spend it with someone else, are you fulfilled?
Have you ever been on the side of a mountain and realized that what ever next place you place your foot or fingers is unstable or doesnt offer you any obvious next move? However, you can't just stay on the side of a cliff the rest of your life and if you try to climb down you die. Mountains or relationships: What makes you fulfilled and happy?
), or (2) the “irrelevant” OP is not in fact irrelevant, in which case I want to be your BFF because what?