Holy Crap! Didn't expect THIS!

[Dom R]

oh, PS:

....
He won't really talk to me except to say he is depressed and feels like a failure.
...
In fact, Mr "I'm-in-it-to-win-it" would readily admit he is not "in it". I tried to get him to talk last night and he was like "You can't squeeze blood from a stone" and when I said I really REALLY needed him to talk to me and engage, all he could say was "yeah, I know."

remember, most men hate to talk, and they especially hate "talking about their feelings".

This is not a battle you need to win. It would help more to simply make him feel better.

It is said that women feel better, by talking about their feelings. (most)Men are the opposite!!
Go DO stuff with him, if you want to make him feel better.

Stop trying to get him to talk about it.

[Trixi]

Thanks Dom- I bet the stuff you suggest would work on a normal guy/man with cajones.

Yesterday we saw the Financial Guy (what he suggested would curl your hair-holy cow!) and somehow it came up that the fellow (now known as FG) knows some famous musicians.

Long story short, FG was talking about a party where the musicians will be that we should come to in August and H says "hey, maybe they could listen to one of my songs". So, he sends FG to youtube.com and has him search for the name of the song; too many things come up so H says "add the _blank_ tavern". Lo and behold, there's the video- that was created this PAST SATURDAY night. Bastard.

I didn’t say anything there, but when we got to the car I was PISSED. He said he “had thought about calling” and he was just “racked with guilt”. He was like “there I go again, excluding you.” At first he had all sorts of “reasons” but I stopped him dead in his tracks and said his reasons didn’t matter. It was wrong. And all he could do was agree. Until he started yelling at ME asking me what I was going to do about it? OMFG! OH! And he said “Once we live together, that sort of thing wouldn’t happen.” WTF?!

So, seems to me, the reason he was so quiet Sunday was because he KNEW he was hiding something major from me. In fact, I read him passages out of FG’s book where he talks about lying about money issues and that the lies damage relationships. (The passages were more about hiding and lying and the effect on relationships, with the focus being on money.)

Anyway, we went to dinner, and he was contrite, blah blah blah.
Go back to my place and the highlights are:

-He’s confused. (Good God! AGAIN?!)

-He says that he has messed up his life; he is not happy, etc.
-I said that when he STILL puts me off and is “confused” even though his life isn’t all that great, it makes me feel liked chopped liver because he is still choosing that life. He said “You’re not chopped liver” and I said “How would I know that?” and he was silent for a long time and finally said “why do you have to ask such hard questions?”

-He wants me to tell him that if we get back together it’s the “best thing” and everything will turn out good. I told him that was true but only if he participated.

-He doesn’t understand the “rush” for me to move back in (end of April)
-H “after all, we’ll have the rest of our lives together”
-Me “The rush would be that according to YOU, you won’t exclude me when we live together so I think I should move in this weekend based on that statement.”
-Me “what’s the hold up? What are you giving up by getting things moving sooner?” (no answer from him)

-I told him it was important to me that he wear his ring. He at first said “I have no problem with that” but when I said I wanted that to happen within the week he said “I’ll wear my ring when you move back in.” (!!!!!!!!!!) I said I was not comfortable with that, at ALL.

He’s supposed to come over tonight where we talk about details; when I would move in; how to deal with the financial things; etc. If we get those things “figured out” he’ll feel “more comfortable.” *I* want to know that we’re committed.

I will go ahead and go thru some of the details, etc, but he needs to grow the hell up. He has screwed up his life and refuses to make different choices.

[Lotus]

My grandmother always said, "If you can't say something nice to someone, don't say anything at all." What can I say?

[Dom R]

Thanks Dom- I bet the stuff you suggest would work on a normal guy/man with cajones.

ha. but hold that thought.

but I stopped him dead in his tracks and said his reasons didn’t matter. It was wrong.

good

...OH! And he said “Once we live together, that sort of thing wouldn’t happen.” WTF?!

...
-I told him it was important to me that he wear his ring. He at first said “I have no problem with that” but when I said I wanted that to happen within the week he said “I’ll wear my ring when you move back in.”

note #1; you were too lenient. you changed my "TODAY", into "by the end of the week".

Your average squirmy-avoidance guy will interpret that as, "she's not serious, so I'll just ignore/bluff her".

So, note #2:
call his bluff.
move back in.
TODAY.
Call him right now, and say, "ok, I'm moving back in with you. I will be sleeping there from now on. Starting tonight.
I expect you to be wearing a wedding ring. TONIGHT"

I'm serious. From here on in, be sleeping there. He has no valid reason to object. Therefore, do not accept any excuse.
It's not like he can claim "there's no room for you". You already have a place to sleep there. In Your Husband's Bed.
(and hey, I suspect you living there, will "assist" in getting those other people out, too. It's a win-win! )

If you want things to truly change in your relationship... then quit "waiting" for it to change, and make the change yourself. Today.

-He doesn’t understand the “rush” for me to move back in (end of April)

I would say, the "rush", is, you're tired of waiting, and you will not wait any longer.

-Me “The rush would be that according to YOU, you won’t exclude me when we live together so I think I should move in this weekend based on that statement.”

Screw the weekend.
Do it tonight.

Either he's serious, or he isnt. He claims to have made his decision. Now hold him to it.

Maybe he's stalling, because he's attempting to "clean some things up". aka cover some things up.
Like last weekend.

Time to throw back the rug and see what's lurking underneath?

Keep in mind that there is a high probability you will uncover something more. So be prepared to be shocked, but also to just keep going,and clean up the mess somehow, and then keep moving forward with your life together.

Some men are inherrently irresponsible.
Here's where I circle back to your first comment that I quoted.

I figure if you wait until he fully grows up, you'll be waiting forever.
If you want to be married to him, I think you will have to take on the responsibility on yourself, of being part of his "conscience", or however you want to put it.
Or to put it in old fashioned terms, "his better half".

You will probably have to be the goad, in some but not all instances, of getting him to do "the right thing", even when he is flakey/irresponsible if left to himself.

This would appear to definately be one of those times.

[edit ps: I think the good news is, he sounds like he has mostly really committed, but is embarrassed/feeling guilty/dragging his heels/whatever. I dont think that is going to go away. Hence my advice above. I figure that you're "close enough" to where you need to be at this point, to just get past the awkward bits now]

[Trixi]

Ugh. I can't do that. I just won't.

I will not live in that house with the 25yo pot smoking idiot and some other guy I have never even met- and me not being welcomed. I think that my H would throw me under the bus and not have my back. I know the 25yo would complain if I was there. Stepson said that when he was staying there and I was coming to visit, the 25yo would express "relief" when I left.

If my H can't handle wearing his ring, he would totally have a meltdown if I started staying there. Not to mention, he IS in a band with these guys; I don't need to alienate them right off the bat. They don't respect the institution of marriage, so I bet they would tell H he is being disrespected.

Regarding him claiming to have made a decision- yeah, that is what he claimed previously, but last night he was "confused" again. There is no leverage in the "you made a decision, now DO the right thing" because he is attempting to leave things open ended and fluid.

On the ring thing, I had initially said it needed to be on his finger in the next two days (to give him time to look for his old ring at that house) or we were going to get a band at a jewelry store and it was not well received. "I want to wear the other ring. I just haven't had time to look for it." As I pointed out to him-- it should only take 30 minutes to look (at most) because it isn't going to be in the roommates' bedrooms, it's not in the studio, it's not in the kitchen, it's not in the den/library-- it is either in the master bedroom/bathroom or in a drawer in the garage. There are very few places to look for it. That was when he said "I'll wear the ring when you move back in." <---that was when it was crystal clear he is thinking of bailing/he's not committed to making this work.

He is complaining about how his head hurts and his body hurts and it would be easier if he was dead.(He added that no, he isn't going to do anything crazy.) I said I didn't even know what to say to that except to get to a doctor and also to restart taking anti-depressants. It's always "I feel like CRAP! I don't want to talk about this now." Nevermind that HE is abusing his body and then paying the price.

It feels like inserting myself into that house when I am not invited will just create animosity and him feeling like I am "controlling" him and also him being embarrassed of what the roommates would think.

[Dom R]

I know the 25yo would complain if I was there. Stepson said that when he was staying there and I was coming to visit, the 25yo would express "relief" when I left.

so it's like I said: you being there, would hasten their departure

Not to mention, he IS in a band with these guys; I don't need to alienate them right off the bat. They don't respect the institution of marriage, so I bet they would tell H he is being disrespected.

I think there's some truth in what you say. Contrariwise, you might consider this in the long term:
your marriage cant survive him continually being with that group of mentally teenage idiots. Sooner or later, he WILL have to leave that band. If they leave HIM, it might be easier.
If you moving back home, gets them all pissed at him and the band breaks up, then so much the better, in the long term.

Yes your husband will be pissed. But it needs to happen sooner or later.

Besides which... How, exactly, do those guys have any right to complain: "Duuude.. your wife wants to LIVE with you??? Duuudee.. that's so wrong.. total disrespect..."

Errr.. EXCUSE ME????

side note: old joke seems apropos right now:
"What do you call a drummer/guitarist/etc without a girlfriend?
Homeless".

Time to break up this "bromance" and kick their sorry pot-smoking butts out onto the street

Regarding him claiming to have made a decision- yeah, that is what he claimed previously, but last night he was "confused" again. There is no leverage in the "you made a decision, now DO the right thing" because he is attempting to leave things open ended and fluid.

Trixi.. there IS leverage in that. The problem is that you arent using it.

Which is why he keeps doing it.

Going back to an analogy I used to toss around a year or so ago;
He's acting like a spoiled little child... and that's because you let him do so.
If you're trying to teach an irresponsible child how to grow up, you dont say, "lets agree to do this", and then let him back out of it every time the going gets tough. You hold them to it, and tell them, "Yes sweetie, its tough to keep going right now. But this is what it's all about to be a 'big boy' instead of a toddler. Make a promise, keep a promise".

Try to put it in easy-to-understand phrases like that for him

[Trixi]

ROFLMAO!!! Dom, I "heart" you! hahahaha!

I laughed thru that whole thing! You are a very good writer.

Besides which... How, exactly, do those guys have any right to complain: "Duuude.. your wife wants to LIVE with you??? Duuudee.. that's so wrong.. total disrespect..."

Snort!! LOL!

Okay, okay, I need to stop laughing.

Well, when YOU type it all out, it seems silly!

H did come over last night; we got all the (ugly) finances out on the table. Came up with the beginning plan of action.
I am moving in May 1st or sooner. (That's fine with me; I have a 1700sf house, 2 car garage and LOTS of hobbies and books. I need to winnow it down. I also need to help my landlord get the house ready for sale (to a degree) and hopefully he will list with me. That would be weird if he didn't....

I have several clients on my plate right now and I do work on the computer until about 10 at night (looking for listings, corresponding with people, preparing buyer's books or listing presentations, printing flyers, printing books, etc etc)and then starting first thing in the morning (6:30-7) so sitting over at the other house without an office will not work for me.

Last night I explained that I am freaked OUT and scared and he said that he is committed. Of course, then he adds "and then if we don't work out, I can say I really tried." Ugh. (But honestly, I guess I have an "exit thought" in mind, too, if it doesn't work out.)I think (I hope I am not wrong) that once he stops resisting and actually puts himself into it, the relationship will work out. He did the old "not to be cliche', but I know I love you, I just don't know if I am *in* love with you"-- but then he continued on and said "I guess that's to be expected after all this time, but it has me scared."

So.
One of the things that I have been wrestling with is "Do I buy the house I am in?". The meeting with the financial guy has helped me decided that no matter how much I want to, it is probably not a good idea for me if I buy something knowing I need to refi in 3 years. I don't think we'll be enjoying appreciation any time soon, so it is not smart for ME to buy. I should continue to rent (if my H and I don't work out.)

As I sort thru things and pare down the "stuff" I am also being prepared "just in case", so that I can move to a smaller place to rent if need be. I hate that I need a back up plan, but part of taking a risk is knowing that you can handle it if the risk doesn't pay off.

I know I shouldn't think that way, but my H is certainly not making me feel secure and warm and fuzzy. Last night stepson called and I told him there was a firm move in date and he was like "yeah. thta's good." (no enthusiasm) and then he added "I sure hope it's true, but you know how Dad is-- he is so loosey goosey on making a decision and then sticking to it."

Thank you for the suggestion on how to handle when he tries to weasel out of things. Naturally I will attempt to come up with something that is a little more respectful... Maybe "You made a decision- strap on a set and man up!" Heh. Maybe not.

[Trixi]

So I told Landlord a few days ago that I would be moving and he wants to get on market- no later than April 1st. HOLY LORD!!! Basically, the night that I talked to him, gave me 9 days to pack up and make the house show ready.(I lose 3 days at the end of the month because of family counseling at DD rehab.) A house that up until the day before that I was not planning on leaving if I could avoid it. The time frame is crazy short-- I know sellers that take a couple months to get their house ready for sale while they de-clutter and deep clean.

Anyway, added to that--my H yesterday explained how he feels and he knows in his heart that it is 100% the right thing for us to get back together morally, but he isn't sure otherwise. AND, that we'll "try for a year" and if it doesn't work out, then at least we tried.

Great. I just gave away the prairie dog that hates him (and tries to attack him); I just rented a storage unit so my landlord can sell the house I love; I'm throwing everything in boxes instead of actually going thru things thoughtfully; I'm supposed to sell the couch set, the entertainment center (that I love) the bedroom set; my washer and dryer-- and his big commitment is for a year and even with that he has it all planned out what he will think if we don't work out...but adds on that we could work out-- he doesn't know. :eyeroll:

I did say that he should man up and do what is right (since he knows what that is) and that his crappy attitude is guaranteeing our failure. That this wishy washy waffly attitude is what he has had this whole time and he needs to make a total change or else the results will be the same as always.

This sucks. And at this juncture- without a divorce so I could get the 401- I can't afford my house. (I was figuring that there would be spousal support because of his HUGE income vs mine-- but now, with no job, that's not realistic.) So I have to move no matter what I guess. And the goal is that when we are living together to get all my consumer debt paid off.

I am pulling back from him and not investing like I should if I want it to work. I analyze every suggestion he makes to see if it is him trying to lead me down the primrose path (ie, I almost assume that he has ulterior motives.) He keeps trying to reassure me that he is committed...but then adds on that we'll see how it is after a year.

[Lotus]

A year from now you refuse to move out.

[Dom R]

Props to what Lotus said

Plus-

Trixi... some people have a "planned trial separation". you need the opposite. You need a planned living-together.
Just "seeing if it works" aint going to cut it and you know that already. you've already said it to him.
Now, what are you going to DO about it?

Sounds like you need a specific, non-wishy-washy plan.

I would suggest dont even discuss details, and feelings, and "do you think doing it THIS way might work...?"

because you already know he hates discussing that sort of thing.

Just come up with a specific plan of action, and make sure he "signs off" on it, BEFORE you move in together.
As to what to put in it...

I think you've already read the Harley books, so you know one plan could be to make sure you have 20 hours a week of positive time together.
So you might put that to him.
Dont discuss it with him, dont say where you got it, dont explain in too much detail WHY you're asking for it.
I'd just suggest saying to him,

"I think that in order for us to really make a go of it, we need to commit to spending AT LEAST 20 hours a week of fun, positive time together.
This REALLY MEANS A LOT TO ME.
Are you willing to commit to that,every week, no excuses?"

I think that if you put it to him positively yet firmly, he might agree to it.. and then you could have a good chance?