Wow, the way Schnarch describes marriage, who would ever want to do it? Lots of pain and work for years and years before you ever get something good?
And on DH and me having sex - looks like I spoke too soon. We've gone from 3 times in August to NONE in September. I guess he has to maintain our low average.
Wow, the way Schnarch describes marriage, who would ever want to do it? Lots of pain and work for years and years before you ever get something good?
+1!!!!!
The whole Passionate Marriage, Marriage is a crucible thing both rings true and scares the heck out of me. Schnarch does make is sound like a cross between the ultimate home improvement project and a Catholic Priest's "life is a veil of tears, but it will get better" speech.
After getting his book and tapes, I have honestly wondered if it is possible for most couples to ever reach what he describes as a passonate marriage. My feeling is that that vast majority of couples don't get there and that even those couples that do take the training only a very few make it to his view of a Passionate Marriage. Most settle for something far less that give them happiness, comfort and fulfills many of their needs. His view of marriage seems to me to be a real crucible melting of two souls into a "for life pair bonded couple."
I have discussed a few of the exercises with my wife on intimacy (sex with eyes wide open, hugging till calm, his role playing exercises) and she looks at me like I am crazy. The whole PM concept seems to me to be one for people who really are committed to painfully pushing the heck out of their own personal boundaries so that they can become more comfortable with their spouse and his/her needs and yet requiring the spouse to painfully push their boundarires as well.
His explaination of how different sexual acts are "discusting" until you have done them enough to integrate them into your view of yourself is the discussion that drove my wife off the deep end to never look at his books again. His approach makes sense, but requires one to take that first step into the unknown.
I wonder how wonderful it would be to find myself in a PM, but know that getting there with the woman I love is probably not going to happen. As you say, "who would ever want to do it?" But it is still a fun read.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
Different people will see it through different lenses, certainly. I actually found the ide of the crucible comforting.
First, I think it's an exaggeration to say "years of struggle before anything good." I don't think Schnarch says that the highest level of "passionate marriage" is the only good thing you'll have in your marriage. As YAH pointed out, there are good times and bad, even wonderful times, in most marriages even though most never reach that pinnacle. But that doesn't mean working toward that pinnacle isn't important! Only two teams make the Super Bowl and only one wins. Does that mean the team that lost the Super Bowl had a meaningless season? Or that the team that lost in the first round of the playoffs had a pointless season, since they didn't reach the pinnacle? Of course not; they had good times and bad and experienced life at a high level.
Second, and more importantly, I found it comforting to think of periods of struggle in a marriage as normal. I think Schnarch has identified something important when he says that many people think that "it shouldn't be this hard." My wife said that again a few weeks ago, but here we are the last two weeks really enjoying each other and our family . . . . and all because we worked through that struggling time and made some changes. I think it's too easy, when you're really struggling with your marriage because you and your spouse have a genuine conflict in your interests, libido, or whatever, to think about what life will be like if that state continues for the next 50 years and be overwhelmed. It makes people think about getting out . . . but if you take Schnarch's message to heart, you realize your marriage is not necessarily broken or doomed because you're struggling right now. The struggle is normal and, what's more, according to the crucible principle, it's likely that you can come out of it stronger than you went in if you meet it head-on. That's a comforting thought for me. I'm more afraid of being helpless or doomed than anything else. If I control my destiny . . . . even if I'm in a frightening place and frightening things may happen, that's something I can hold onto.
I guess different people have different thresholds for how long they're willing to hang in there (and how bad it has to be before they leave.)
The only serious gripe I have with my marriage is the lack of sex. And maybe I could get used to that, in time. I don't know. Sometimes I just get tired of worrying about it. I do have a BOB, and DH does go out sometimes.
I guess different people have different thresholds for how long they're willing to hang in there (and how bad it has to be before they leave.)
The only serious gripe I have with my marriage is the lack of sex. And maybe I could get used to that, in time. I don't know. Sometimes I just get tired of worrying about it. I do have a BOB, and DH does go out sometimes.
There is an interesting book that you might want to read (before frequently breaking out your Battery Operated Boyfriend, whenever your husband goes out). It was recommended to my wife by her individual sex therapist. The book is Still Sexy after All These Years: The 9 unspoken truths about Women's desire Beyond 50, by Leah Kliger & Deborah Nedelman. My wife wanted me to read it after she finished it. It was based on thousands of interviews with women over 50 across the country and what they felt about their sensuality and desire. As an HD person, I found it depressing, however it had suggestions on what some women who's husbands had died or who had serious medical problems that precluded sex found as a way of dealing with their lack of sex and yet still keeping a feeling of sensuality alive.
Another book that I found more interesting was Mating in Captivity by Ester Perel. It was about how the erotic spice/fire in a relationship can die with familiarity and a study of ways to keep the lust/fire alive in a committed long term relationship. Again, that may not be the issue in your relationship.
While I suspect that you are more interesting being able to push some button on your husband to get his sex drive up, I haven't really come across anything designed to push a spouse from no to go (althought, I looked). The closest I came to finding something was books on self hypnosis and the use of verbal affirmations and imagry to make changes in your life. I thought about trying to use verbal affirmations/statement that my wife could overhear that might work on her subconsious, but ultimately decided against it.
Good luck
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
I suggest that it is likely to be a combination of items 1 and 3. I say that from my own experience in a sexless marriage.
It woukd be nice if the anguish suffered as the HD spouse was a shared concern by the LD spouse. Unfortunately, it does not seem to be that way.
I realize that choice 3 probably rings the most true for myself...I've been through a divorce before and even though my ex and I remained good friends after the anger and the eventual apologies...it is not something that I really wish to go through again.
You might consider that your husband (as does my wife) simply values something different about a "relationship." It is the mere appearance that there is one and that are no obvious visible problems that exist within while allowing the LD spouse to pursue what he/she values (something other than sex).
The disconnect between levels of satisfaction is what is so frustrating.
The Captain
Last sex: 04/06/1997 Last attempt: 11/11/1997 W Issues "No Means No" Declaration: 11/11/1997 W chooses to terminate sex 05/1998 I gained 60, then lost 85 pounds. Start running again (marathons)
I'll bet the LD person is hurting at least as much as the HD spouse. Being the HD one here, I couldn't see it until I forced myself to look at it from her perspective the best I could, and even then couldn't fully grasp it. MrsGGB is/was hurting at least as much as I was in the R; she was also feeling unloved, and the more I pushed sex the more she pulled back because she wasn't feeling the love. It will take an honest committment from both parties to find a middle ground, as well as a lot of honest open communication. I'm currently doing the "love dare" from the movie "fireproof", and that along with MrsGGB's working on her end seems to be closing the gap for us. Stay tuned.
I think that's a really important point, GGB--generally, because people marry others on the same level of development as themselves, they share the same level of satisfaction or dissatisfaction with the marriage. HOWEVER, this likely manifests itself in different areas of that marriage.
I'm so glad that your hard work is paying off with increased communication and a greater connection between you!
Margali, it's not about hanging in without fighting, and it's not about getting used to anything. It's about facing the fight head on, admitting to yourself what the stakes are, and steadfastly defending your own integrity. It's about not giving up and accepting a false choice limited to either sacrificing your integrity so you can accept a sexless marriage on the one hand or pre-emptively walking out because "it shouldn't be this hard" on the other.
Maybe old has-been athletes are just suckers for this kind of "are you WITH me, men?" pep talk stuff, but to me, Schnarch reads like a call to arms.
Captain, what you suggest is possible. But to believe it means to jump to the conclusion that the worst is true about Margali's husband without evidence. You keep insisting that the HD partner has everything figured out and knows what goes on in the LD partner's head. I see no evidence that it happens that way very often. Your insistence that people should just learn to accept that LD partners are just out to deceive everyone is not safe advice for anyone to follow. Again, I'm not trying to pick on you, and I've stayed out of your thread for a long time now. But you're hurting people instead of helping with this constant refrain of doom. Maybe Margali's husband (and your wife) really are just bad, shallow people who only care about appearances and are willing to hurt her (and you) as much as it takes to have the appearances without loving sex, which they hate because of something innate in their personalities and not because of anything they're going through. And maybe it's even possible that your other relationships were with women just as messed up, and that the whole thing was unlucky chance on your part and hers and so there's nothing you or she can do about it. But the odds of that are very, very low.
