Loving, Listening, and Letting Go..

[aeolianchaos]

See the previous thread for updates and background: WAW, Filing as Fast As Possible

[aeolianchaos]

So I wrote W back after 48 hours. Just acknowledged that the conversation was good and I appreciated her candor and directness about issues that affected our marriage.

Briefly addressed the division of 'stuff' aspectof things. I suspect this is foremost in her mind right now, as she is focused on 'taking care of #1' from what I can tell. She doesn't want to come back to the states and have nothing.

Thanked for some food she brought w/ her that was quite good. She is an outstanding cook and I do miss her food. I am good, but it takes me a lot more time to make things.

W wrote back within an hour with a "You're so welcome for... I wanted to make you a big thing of it today." and proceeded to share the recipe w/ me.

The rest of the e-mail is basically dividing stuff up talk.

"I'll make a spreadsheet of everything that we have that I can think of...big and small- and we can just check off who wants what, and whats left to be donated/sold. Hopefully that will make this a little easier to bear.
hope you have a good weekend, W"

It makes me feel sad. Thats okay - I can feel sadness. On one hand, I know I need her to change too. Recommitting herself to her own integrity would be a necessary step towards reconciliation. On the other hand, I miss her a lot and the idea of us leaving each others lives like this seems so completely unnecessary. When Every time she talks about D, its always about how difficult it is, and how hard it is. I don't get it. Does she feel like she "has" to get D to grow up?

When we talked the other day, she talked about how she felt like I needed to be on my own. Pay rent, bills, etc.. take care of myself. I don't get that.. I have paid rent and bills quite a bit this year. I have done so plenty in the past. When we first started living together, I was paying all the rent. I can't tell if this is part of her whole thing of not 'respecting' me because I wasn't working.. I don't know. I could probably drive myself in circles trying to figure it out.

On one hand, the pleasantness factor is up quite a bit. On the other.. hmm.

[FaithnAK]

When we talked the other day, she talked about how she felt like I needed to be on my own. Pay rent, bills, etc.. take care of myself. I don't get that.. I have paid rent and bills quite a bit this year. I have done so plenty in the past. When we first started living together, I was paying all the rent. I can't tell if this is part of her whole thing of not 'respecting' me because I wasn't working.. I don't know. I could probably drive myself in circles trying to figure it out.

Pure projection on her part. Her "feelings" not yours. Quit talking to her and when you do have to, make it short and sweet.

You can't do anything about the way she "feels". Focus on you and how to rebuild your self esteem. She basically has no respect for you right now. She is literally smoothing this over for herself, so she can justify her actions. It's not your job to ever punish her, but I think she needs to feel your loss.

Ask yourself, "what makes me happy?"

If she wants to walk away and continue a PA, then accept it. Be a man that KNOWS it is her loss and that there are 3 BILLION other women out there that will want to be with the new you.

All LBS's have something to own up to, but when you allow her to make you question yourself like this, you forget the fact she didn't have to cheat and she didn't have to walk away. Forgive yourself, cut yourself some slack, and GAL. Be someone that has self confidence and any woman would be a fool to leave.

You have to become the WAS now. Make her question why you aren't "being nice and THERE" anymore. Self empowerment, but not an excuse to be a jerk either. Just live your life like she's gone.

[greenblue90]

Aeolian
Just read your thread took me all morning. Then again I shouldn't complain I have 4 threads. I'm going to hit my points in bullet format since, like you, I have a tendency to get carried away with analysis.

1. I think it's great that you have made so many insights, it's very valuable to be able to process data about both yourself and W, and to be able to get understanding. That being said be careful not to over analyze. It's a trait I have too, and it can sometimes lead down the wrong path, or create undue stress. Also gaining understanding is a coping mechanism some develop in order to deal with difficult situations. This is fine as long as your conclusions are logical and founded. This means trying to read your W's actions is not only futile, but possibly detrimental.

2. I can relate to you on how you have acted like a doormat. So far you have shown all the traits of someone with Nice Guy syndrome. Someone who sacrifices, and gives all they can in order to receive the love and attention they desire. The flip side to this is that if they do not vet what they want then they act like real jerks, can be passive aggressive, or even blow their tops. Guys like us establish stealth contracts in which we give our all with the expectation of getting much back in return. When we don't get it we act like jerks.

3. You sound like you gave, and gave in the hopes of getting something back. Meanwhile your W took and took with very little return. That's because giving nice guys attract, or in some cases create, takers. We are so willing to give that we attract people that need to receive, even if these people are not willing to reciprocate. This is often due to their own insecurities, and fear of allowing themselves to be vulnerable. Takers can't be in a relationship with a well adjusted individual, because they'd have to reciprocate at some point. Instead they go to giver nice guys, because they can take and take without fear of the NG demanding affection in return. (they don't because they are afraid of creating conflict).

4. This creates a dynamic where the NG gets tired of not getting what he needs and blows up. Meanwhile the taker is shocked that they cannot get anymore from the NG and decides to seek more attention somewhere else or just leave.

5. You have inadvertently been feeding your W's sense of entitlement. She feels entitled to all the emotional support, while not returning any. Afterall why should she, if she has gotten away with it all these years.

Ok so what does this all mean?

1. You have to find your own sense of self worth. (sounds like you are on the right path. )

2. Your W needs to find YOUR worth. She is used to taking so much that the law of diminishing returns kicked in. She was so used to your support that she undervalued it. Your actions lately like not taking care of the cat, going dark, etc, are showing that your love is a precious commodity. Keep it up it's hard, especially when you see them down and want to run to them. I find it ironic how some WAW's want the LBS to console them and comfort them when they feel down about the D even though it's their doing! Like I said, take and no return.

3. Stand up for yourself. For now this means no longer giving your "support" logistically, economically, emotionally, whatever, for free. If she wants to do this she loses your support. Its part of the decision she made. She can't have both.

4. If she does come back learn how to demand the love and support you need! This was hard for me at first, since I wanted to avoid conflict. Now that I do though, we resolve fights quickly, and I don't feel so neglected.

[edited by dbmod: reference is not recommended nor allowed].

As always I may be off my rocker, so let me know if this rings true, or I missed the mark.

[hoswald]

Good post, GB, and describes some of the dynamic my W and I unfortunately developed.

[aeolianchaos]

Pure projection on her part.

I was actually thinking about that - projecting her belief that she needs to be by herself?

Quit talking to her and when you do have to, make it short and sweet.

This was the first conversation we had in a month. Previous to that we were exchanging about 1 sentence a week via email.

Be a man that KNOWS it is her loss

I believe it is a loss for both of us, in different ways - but I think I know what you mean, as far as not seeing myself in a negative light because of it. I am working on this - it is a little overwhelming sometimes as she was the primary money earner and i have some financial stressors because of that, but I'm doing my best to deal with it.

[aeolianchaos]

Guys like us establish stealth contracts in which we give our all with the expectation of getting much back in return. When we don't get it we act like jerks.

I don't know that I ever thought this in a highly conscientious way, but I can see it. I think for me some of it was that reflected sense of self. At the same time, I am an authentically nice person, and since much of this began I would venture to say my niceness has become more real and more grounded in who I am and less in other people's validation of me.

nice guys attract, or in some cases create, takers. We are so willing to give that we attract people that need to receive, even if these people are not willing to reciprocate. This is often due to their own insecurities, and fear of allowing themselves to be vulnerable.

Interesting. I can see how maybe I created a monster!! If you were to ask a lot of people, they would conclude that my W was the Nice Girl. She does a lot of 'kind' things intended to get love from other people.

Giving seems to be a significant part of my archetype, but the other part of that is the risk to ignore my own needs or make them secondary to others without deciding to on a conscious level.

She feels entitled to all the emotional support, while not returning any.

I could see this - in fact, it perfectly describes a lot of how our relationship has been for a long time - I was consistently there for her when she needed support, while I did my best to never need support from her. Borrowed functioning, perhaps?

I don't know if she is conscious of this - I would guess if you asked her she would say that she felt obliged to protect my emotions and couldn't have her needs met.

I find it ironic how some WAW's want the LBS to console them and comfort them when they feel down about the D even though it's their doing! Like I said, take and no return.

I am working at dealing with this. At this point, I don't acknowledge anything written about how its hard, and I try to just stay quiet and calm if it comes up in conversation. I figure I'm doing her a favor if I let her take care of her own emotions.

Stand up for yourself. For now this means no longer giving your "support" logistically, economically, emotionally, whatever, for free. If she wants to do this she loses your support. Its part of the decision she made. She can't have both.

This is one I really struggle with. Not because I'm afraid of losing love - according to her, she likes me but doesn't love me (ILYBIDLY?) - but because I have compassion for some of what she is experiencing, and that is a fundamental part of me.

What am I exchanging it for? Do I really want to choose my behavior in such a transactional manner? I want to maintain myself without her input playing a big role in it.

As always I may be off my rocker, so let me know if this rings true, or I missed the mark.

I guess I find it hard to see myself as 'nice guy' in this situation - for starters, I acted like a real jerk quite a bit. But I see similarities. Also, MWD discusses the idea that if one person is contributing everything in a relationship, the other person doesn't have space to contribute. I guess this would be a way of creating a giver/taker dynamic. I can see how that would apply - because I was always giving, she took but didn't get the opportunity to learn to give.

I appreciate you contributing to my thread - I certainly have some more things to consider, and will have to check out that book.

[ESN]

Pure projection on her part. Her "feelings" not yours. Quit talking to her and when you do have to, make it short and sweet.

You can't do anything about the way she "feels". Focus on you and how to rebuild your self esteem. She basically has no respect for you right now. She is literally smoothing this over for herself, so she can justify her actions. It's not your job to ever punish her, but I think she needs to feel your loss.

Ask yourself, "what makes me happy?"

If she wants to walk away and continue a PA, then accept it. Be a man that KNOWS it is her loss and that there are 3 BILLION other women out there that will want to be with the new you.

All LBS's have something to own up to, but when you allow her to make you question yourself like this, you forget the fact she didn't have to cheat and she didn't have to walk away. Forgive yourself, cut yourself some slack, and GAL. Be someone that has self confidence and any woman would be a fool to leave.

You have to become the WAS now. Make her question why you aren't "being nice and THERE" anymore. Self empowerment, but not an excuse to be a jerk either. Just live your life like she's gone.

I wouldn't have thought of this advice, but this sounds really "right" to me - she is making herself feel better right now - she doesn't sound ready to own her stuff or even really see it right now - it's almost like to her, it's this nebulous pain but she doesn't know what - so she kind of jumped over it - skipped it. Maybe come back to it later.

Def. learn and grow from the input that she's given, but don't feel bad about it.

Feel good about your changes - to be independent - financially or whatever. Be grateful to her for the contrast that has helped you expand into this new version of yourself.

[ESN]

I don't know if this makes sense or is kind of just obvious and not worth mentioning, but one thing I think about with the ILYBINILWY is that the person saying that is not in love with themselves, blaming you, and using any of your bad behavior from the past as an excuse.

It's what I think BF is doing to me now - he always says I yelled at him for two years - maybe I did. But if he loved himself more and love was flowing through him (i.e., he was content and happy) it either wouldn't have bothered him, changed the dynamic, he would have walked away, etc. But now i think he uses that as an excuse b/c he is unhappy - rather than find happiness or what he's looking for right where he is - I'm the reason for his unhappiness.

Anyway, yeah, I think we all recognize that here - but just saying.

[aeolianchaos]

she is making herself feel better right now - she doesn't sound ready to own her stuff or even really see it right now - it's almost like to her, it's this nebulous pain but she doesn't know what

I think she is trying to. I'm doing my best to acknowledge what seems like "selective presentation" statements without positively reinforcing those parts of it.

Part of me does worry that she is acting this way just to try and smooth things over. I know it really doesn't matter - but I have a definite bias for information that would make it seem like she is trying to confront herself. In her own way. At the same time, she has been quite resolute about wanting a D since she left. So... I'm doing my best to act and think as if that is the case while at the same time I know that I want to be married to her and can see potential paths forward in that direction.

I run into problems/worries when I start to think about if there was something I could say to change her mind. I can't. I need to be working on my own stuff and when i'm around her, work on my own stuff too - not work on her or her stuff. Those are hers, and while my own stuff includes listening and taking responsibility for my role, it isn't my job to fix her problems, or even point them out for her at this point. That is the exquisite place in the moment, where I have to look whats happening right in the face, and be okay with it.